>> HELLO.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WOE TO THOSE WHO MANIPULATE RELIGION IN THE NAME OF GOD FOR THEIR GAIN.

>> POPE LEO RAMPS UP HIS WAR OF WORDS AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE PROMOTES PEACE AROUND THE WORLD.

I SPEAK WITH THE PONTIFF'S CLOSE ALLY, THE ARCHBISHOP, BLASE CUPICH.

> >> THEN THE SHREDDING OF U. S. AID.

> >> THERE'S A FEAR OF MENTIONING THE WORD WOMEN, FEMALE.

>> ARE WOMEN BEING ERASED FROM THE WORKPLACE?

JOANNE LIPMAN SAYS THEY ARE.

DUE TO WHITE HOUSE ROLLBACKS ON DEI POLICIES.

> >> DEFYING WAR WITH FASHION.

WE HEAR ABOUT THE UKRAINIANS KEEPING THEIR SPIRITS UP WITH STYLE.

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>> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANG COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES.

BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

GOD DOES NOT BLESS ANY CONFLICT, THE UNWAVERING POSITION OF POPE LEO.

AS HE FINDS HIMSELF IN A PUBLIC DISPUTE WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OVER THE WAR ON IRAN, WHICH THEY JUSTIFY IN BIBLICAL TERMS.

TODAY, MIDWAY THROUGH HIS VISIT TO AFRICA, HIS MESSAGE WAS CLEAR.

>> WOE TO THOSE WHO MANIPULATE RELIGION IN THE NAME OF GOD, FOR THEIR OWN MILITARY, ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL GAIN.

DRAGGING THAT WHICH IS SACRED INTO DARKNESS AND FILTH.

BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE SPENT ON KILLING AND DEVASTATION.

THE WORLD IS BEING RAVAGED BY A HANDFUL OF TYRANTS.

>> THE MESSAGE IS CLEAR.

IT IT COMES AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLED LEO WEAK.

THE POPE HAS BEEN PUSHING BACK, TALKING TO JOURNALISTS ON THE PAPAL PLANE.

HE SAID, I HAVE NO FEAR OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OR SPEAKING OUT LOUDLY.

THE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL.

FOR MORE ON THIS, I SPOKE TO ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST INFLUENTIAL CARDINALS, THE ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO, BLASE CUPICH.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE HEARD WHAT THE POPE SAID TODAY FROM CAMEROON WHERE HE IS LAYING DOWN THE GAUNTLET FOR PEACE.

HE TALKED ABOUT THE OPPOSITE OF THAT IS BEING DRAGGED INTO THE FILTH.

HE USED THE WORD FILTH.

HE TALKED ABOUT TYRANTS AND AUTOCRATS.

TELL ME WHY THIS KIND OF ESCALATION OF WORDS IS HAPPENING.

>> I THINK IT'S IN KEEPING WITH HIS OBLIGATION AND HIS SACRED MISSION OF SHARING THE GOSPEL.

THAT, I THINK, IS SOMETHING THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF THE CHURCH'S TEACHING, THAT TYRANTS AND THOSE WHO WAGE WARS REALLY DO HARM TO THE COMMON GOOD.

THOSE TEACHINGS GO BACK MANY YEARS.

SO HE IS IN KEEPING WITH THAT MISSION.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE TRUMP -- THE OTHERS IN THE ADMINISTRATION ARE RIGHT WHEN THEY THINK THAT POPE LEO IS ADDRESSING HIM WITH THESE COMMENTS?

IS HE?

>> I THINK THAT HE IS ADDRESSING, AS HE SAYS, THE ZEAL FOR WAR, WHERE WAR IS IN VOGUE.

AS POPE FRANCIS SAID, IT'S BEING FOUGHT PIECEMEAL.

THE POPE IS FULFILLING HIS MISSION OF SHARING THE GOSPEL.

I WOULD SAY THAT, COMMENTS THAT ATTACK THE POPE REALLY ARE NOT ABOUT ATTACKING ONE PERSON BUT ATTACKING THE CHURCH ITSELF.

>> THE ATTACKS ARE STRONG.

HONESTLY, I HAVE COVERED THE WORLD FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH AN ATTACK FROM THE UNITED STATES TOWARDS A PONTIFF.

THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN REAGAN'S ERA, THAT WAS JOHN PAUL II, THERE WAS THE FALL OF COMMUNISM IN POLAND.

THEN THERE WAS POPE FRANCIS.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS, SOMETIMES POPES ARE MORE LIBERAL.

SOMETIMES MORE CONSERVATIVE.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF PUBLIC SPAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, FOR ME IT HAS ALL THE APPEARANCE OF AN ORGANIZED EFFORT TO DISCREDIT AND MARGINALIZE THE VOICE OF THE PUBLIC CHURCH IN THE PUBLIC SCARE.

IT'S SAD IF THIS IS A NEW CHAPTER IN THE SAD HISTORY OF ANTI CATHOLICISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> AFTER TRUMP SORT OF WENT AT THE POPE FOR CALLING HIM WEAK, ET CETERA, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE U. S. CATHOLIC BISHOPS COMMITTEE SAID, FOR OVER 1,000 YEARS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS TAUGHT JUST WAR THEORY.

IT'S THAT LONG TRADITION THE HOLY FATHER CAREFULLY REFERENCES IN HIS COMMENTS ON WAR.

IT MUST BE A DEFENSE AGAINST ANOTHER WHO ACTIVELY WAGES WAR WHICH IS WHAT THE HOLY FATHER ACTUALLY SAID.

HE DOES NOT LISTEN TO THE PRAYERS OF THOSE WHO WAGE WAR.

WHEN POPE LEO SPEAKS AS SUPREME PASTOR OF THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH, HE IS NOT OFFERING OPINIONS ON THEOLOGY, HE IS PREACHING THE GOSPEL.

I JUST WANT TO FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF JUST WAR.

>> YES.

THE CONCEPT OF JUST WAR HAS ALWAYS BEEN DEFINED BY --YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE AN OBJECTIVE THAT'S CLEARLY DEFINED, THAT'S GOING TO RESTORE ORDER AND JUSTICE.

WE HAVE SEEN SO MANY COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR WAR IN WHICH THE OBJECTIVE IS NOT CLEARLY DECLINED BECAUSE IT JUMPS FROM ONE TOPIC TO THE OTHER.

YOU ALSO, I THINK, IN THIS MODERN ERA WHERE YOU HAVE WEAPONS THAT CAN IMPACT A WIDE RANGE OF INNOCENT VICTIMS IN A POPULATION, THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN YOU WAGE THAT KIND OF WAR WITH THESE WEAPONS, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT DAMAGE YOU ARE DOING TO A SOCIETY, TO PEOPLE WHO ARE INNOCENT VICTIMS IN A COUNTRY.

SO THERE HAS TO BE A PROPORTIONALITY IN THE ACTIONS THAT ARE TAKEN, BUT ALSO VERY CLEARLY DEFINED GOALS.

>> DO YOU THEN AND THE POPE THEN DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS WAR IS JUST AS DEFINED?

>> IT IS NOT JUST.

>> THE OTHER PART OF THIS STATEMENT THAT I READ TO YOU FROM YOUR OWN CONFERENCE OF BISHOPS, BASICALLY REFERS TO SOMETHING THE VICE PRESIDENT VANCE SAID WHO IS A CATHOLIC, A CONVERT TO CATHOLICISM.

HE SAID THE POPE SHOULD BE MORE CAREFUL WHEN TALKING ABOUT THEOLOGY.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> ON THE ONE HAND, I LIKE THE POPE IS AN ADVOCATE FOR PEACE.

THAT'S CERTAINLY ONE OF HIS ROLES.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HOW YOU CAN SAY GOD IS NEVER ON THE SIDE OF THOSE WHO WIELD THE SWORD?

WAS GOD ON THE SIDE OF THOSE WHO LIBERATED FRANCE FROM THE NAZIS?

WAS GOD ON THE SIDE OF THOSE WHO D HOLOCAUST CAMPS AND THOSE WHO SURVIVED?

I CERTAINLY THINK THE ANSWER IS YES.

WHEN THE POPE SAYS THAT GOD IS NEVER ON THE SIDE OF THOSE WHO WIELD THE SWORD, THAT'S A 1,000 YEAR --MORE THAN A 1,000 YEAR TRADITION OF JUST WAR THEORY.

WE CAN HAVE DISAGREEMENT WHETHER THIS OR THAT CONFLICT IS JUST.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT IN THE SAME WAY IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO BE CAREFUL WHEN I TALK ABOUT MATTERS OF PUBLIC POLICY, I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE POPE TO BE CAREFUL WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT MATTERS OF THEOLOGY.

>> YOUR REACTION TO THE POPE SHOULD BE CAREFUL WHEN TALKING ABOUT THEOLOGY?

I THOUGHT THAT WAS HIS JOB, FRANKLY.

BUT I DON'T KNOW.

>> IT IS.

YOU ARE RIGHT ON TARGET.

IT'S HIS JOB.

TO EQUATE RESPONDING TO THE ATTACKS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES THAT PROMPTED THE SECOND WORLD WAR INTERVENTION ON OUR PART TO WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE WITH THIS WAR OF CHOICE IS REALLY -- REALLY FALLS SHORT.

THE LOGIC JUST UNRAVELS WHEN YOU LOOK MORE DEEPLY AT THE ARGUMENT HE IS MAKING.

>> EVERY SINGLE DAY, INCLUDING TODAY, PETE HEGSETH, HE CALLS HIMSELF THE SECRETARY OF WAR INSTEAD OF DEFENSE.

HE QUOTES THE BIBLE ALL THE TIME.

TODAY, HE DECIDED TO LASH OUT AT THE PRESS FAIR PHARASIES.

>> I WILL CLOSE WITH SCRIPTURE DRAWING STRENGTH FROM PSALM 144.

BLESSED BE THE LORD, MY ROCK, WHO TRAINS MY HANDS FOR WAR AND MY FINGERS FOR BATTLE.

HE IS MY LOVING GOD AND MY FORTRESS.

MY STRONGHOLD AND MY DELIVER.

MY SHIELD IN WHOM I TAKE REFUGE.

>> YOU CAN PARSE ALL OF THAT?

>> WELL, IT'S QUITE DIFFICULT TO DO SO BECAUSE AS THE HOLY FATHER SAID TODAY, ANYONE WHO USES SCRIPTURES AND INVOKED GOD IN A WAR THAT HARMS SO MANY PEOPLE AND UNDERMINES SOCIAL ORDER AND WORLD STABILITY I THINK BEGINS TO GO DOWN A PATH THAT CAN'T BE SUPPORTED.

IF HE IS GOING TO QUOTE SCRIPTURE, GOING BACK AND HEARING JESUS SAY, BLESS READY THE PEACEMAKERS, WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START.

>> CAN I ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK IS THE BIGGER PICTURE HERE?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

NOW WE HEAR A REPORT THAT'S BEEN BROKEN BY --IT'S THE "MIAMI HERALD. "

WHITE HOUSE CANCELED $11 MILLION CONTRACT WITH CATHOLIC CHARITIES TO SHELTER AND CARE FOR MIGRANT CHILDREN WHO ENTERED U. S. ALONE.

THE ARCHBISHOP SAID THE GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO END MORE THAN 60 YEARS OF A RELATIONSHIP WITH CATHOLIC CHARITIES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHY I SAID EARLIER THAT IT REALLY GIVES THE APPEARANCE, ALL OF THE ACTIONS AND COMMENTS, OF AN ORCHESTRATED EFFORT TO MARGINALIZE THE VOICE OF THE CHURCH IN THE PUBLIC SCARE.

I AGAIN HOPE THIS IS NOT THE BEGINNING OF A NEW CHAPTER OF THE SAD HISTORY OF ANTI- CATHOLICISM THAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THIS COUNTRY BEFORE.

I THINK THAT IT'S TIME FOR PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION AND IN CONGRESS TO STEP FORWARD AND TELL US EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE.

>> THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT'S BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF KIDS COMING OVER HAS DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" GATHERED DATA.

IT SEES CATHOLIC CHURCH CONVERTS HAVE REALLY EXPANDED IN THE UNITED STATES.

CHURCHES ACROSS AMERICA ARE WELCOMING THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF NEW CATHOLICS IN RECENT YEARS.

YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A FORCE.

THERE HAS BEEN CONDEMNATION BY MANY OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, NOT JUST THE CATHOLICS, TO A LOT OF WHAT TRUMP IS SAYING ABOUT THE POPE, THE DEPICTION OF TRUMP AS JESUS.

HE SAYS IT WASN'T.

HE SAID HE WAS LOOKING LIKE A HEALER.

THIS IS -- TRUMP WAS BROUGHT IN BY --TO AN EXTENT --THE CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS.

THEY USED HIM AS THEIR VESSEL, THEY SAID.

>> IT'S TRUE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, A MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS VOTED FOR HIM AS WELL.

I'M HEARING, HOWEVER, FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT THEY DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE MASS DEPORTATION OF PEOPLE THAT WE EXPERIENCED HERE IN CHICAGO AND THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES.

AND ALSO, THAT WE WOULD BECOME INVOLVED IN FOREIGN WARS.

SO I THINK THAT IT WILL BE INTERESTING AS TIME GOES ON TO SEE WHAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE TODAY.

I DO THINK THAT, AGAIN, GETTING BACK TO WHAT WE ARE SAYING IN THE CHURCH, IS THAT THIS IS NOT ABOUT POLITICS.

THIS IS ABOUT THE GOSPEL.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO TALK ABOUT AND THINK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY, NOT JUST IN TERMS OF POLITICS OR NATIONAL GAINS BUT RATHER TO THE HIGHER MOTIVATIONS THAT WE ARE CALLED TO AS HUMAN BEINGS TO RESPECT HUMAN DIGNITY AND THE COMMON GOOD.

>> FATHER, IT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT THAT POPE LEO IS THE FIRST AMERICAN POPE.

HE SPEAKS OBVIOUSLY FLUENT ENGLISH, AMERICAN.

HE IS CONSTANTLY TALKING TO THE PRESS.

THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED.

NO OTHER POPE DID THAT.

ONE MIGHT ALMOST THINK THAT HE WAS ELECTED BECAUSE OF THE HISTORICAL MOMENT THAT HE IS IN, TO SORT OF BE THE MORAL VOICE IN THIS SITUATION RIGHT NOW.

MAYBE TO ACTUALLY SPEAK FROM HIS PLATFORM AGAINST SOME OF THE TRUMP POLICIES THAT HE DISAGREES WITH.

>> WELL, WE REALLY FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT AS WE ELECTED HIM IN THE CONCLAVE THAT THERE WAS A PRESENCE OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT THAT WAS MOVING US IN THAT DIRECTION.

HE CAME WITH A HOST OF TALENT AND EXPERIENCES THAT RECOMMENDED HIM.

HE WAS A MISSIONARY.

HE SPEAKS A NUMBER OF LANGUAGES.

HE HAS TRAVELED TO OVER 40 COUNTRIES.

HE KNOWS WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A PASTOR.

HE IS ONE WHO HAS EXPERIENCE IN ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK HIS ABILITIES BUT ALSO OUR ATTENTION TO THE MOVEMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AS WE WENT AHEAD WITH THE CONCLAVE WERE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ELECTION.

>> I GUESS FINALLY, BECAUSE THIS IS ALSO A BIG DEAL IN THE UNITED STATES, OBVIOUSLY THIS JULY 4th IS THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF THE --OF AMERICA.

THE POPE HAS DECLINED AN INVITATION.

HE IS GOING TO MINISTER TO MIGRANTS, IMMIGRANTS IN ITALY.

DO YOU SUPPORT THAT DECISION?

>> WELL, OF COURSE, BECAUSE IT'S CLEAR THAT HE IS SHOWING HIS PRIORITY IS TO REACH OUT TO THOSE WHO ARE POOR, THOSE WHO ARE MARGINALIZED, FORGOTTEN.

THE FACT THAT THESE ARE MIGRANTS, FLEEING EITHER POVERTY OR WAR AND DISTRESS, IS REALLY IN TUNE WITH OUR AMERICAN LEGACY THAT IS INSCRIBED ON THE TABLET HELD BY THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

IT'S A VERY CATHOLIC THING TO DO, BUT ALSO VERY AMERICAN THING TO DO.

>> MAYBE A VERY AMERICAN THING TO DO, FINALLY, I WANT TO ASK YOU, I WAS STRUCK BY THE WORDS OF POPE LEO WHEN HE SAID, I AM NOT AFRAID.

WE EXIST, I THINK, MANY PEOPLE FEEL, THAT THEY ARE IN A ENVIRONMENT RIGHT NOW THAT IF THEY SPEAK THE TRUTH OR SPEAK THEIR MORAL BELIEF, THEY MIGHT FACE CONSEQUENCES.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT, ABOUT THE FEAR FACTOR AND SORT OF CONFRONTING FEAR.

>> I THINK THAT HE RESPONDED TO THAT IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT HE IS GOING TO CONTINUE SPEAKING AND SPEAKING BOLDLY.

IT'S AT THAT MOMENT THAT HE SAID, I AM GOING TO DO THIS.

I'M NOT AFRAID TO DO THIS.

BECAUSE IT IS MY MISSION TO PREACH THE GOSPEL.

SO I THINK THAT IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF NOT BEING AFRAID, BUT IT'S ALSO A BOLDNESS OF SPIRIT TO MAKE SURE THAT HE IS TRUE TO HIS MISSION AND OBLIGATION AS A SUCCESSOR OF PETER.

>> IT'S SOMETHING VERY FASCINATING TO WATCH.

WE APPRECIATE YOU COMING ON TO OUR SHOW.

CARDINAL BLASE CUPICH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AS CONFLICT AND WAR SPREAD AROUND THE WORLD, HUMANITARIAN AID IS SHRINKING, JUST WHEN IT IS MOST NEEDED.

MANY WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE CUTTING BACK THEIR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT FUNDING, FORCED TO FOCUS ON MILITARY SPENDING AND OTHER NATIONAL PRIORITIES.

ALL THESE CUTS HAVE REAL WORLD IMPACT.

NONE SO GRAVE AS THE DESTRUCTION OF USAID.

NICHOLAS ENRICH SPENT DECADES WORKING THERE.

HE HAS WRITTEN A BOOK REVEALING THE WAY THE AGENCY WAS TORN APART.

HE IS JOINING ME.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WANTED TO START WITH WHAT IT TOOK TO ACTUALLY TELL THIS STORY AND BE A LITTLE BIT OF A WHISTLE-BLOWER.

I ENDED MY CONVERSATION WITH CARDINAL CUPICH ASKING ABOUT FEAR AND HOW POPE LEO WAS REJECTED THE NOTION OF FEAR IN SPEAKING OUT AGAINST WHAT HE CONSIDERS THIS ADMINISTRATION OR ANY ADMINISTRATION'S UNJUST POLICIES.

DID YOU HAVE TO SORT OF GATHER YOUR STRENGTH AND BE A BIT CAREFUL WHEN YOU WROTE THIS?

WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT IT?

>> I DID.

I WAS INTIMIDATED FOR A LONG TIME, EVEN THOUGH I TOLD MYSELF NOT TO BE.

ULTIMATELY, I FOUND THAT I HIT MY BREAKING POINT.

ONCE I DID, ONCE I NO LONGER FELT LIKE I COULD BE SILENT AS THE AGENCY THAT I HAD SPENT MY CAREER WITH AND WAS BEING TORN APART, IT BECAME A CHOICE THAT I FELT LIKE I HAD NO OTHER OPTION.

SO AT THAT POINT, I DECIDED THAT I NEEDED TO SPEAK UP AND I NEEDED TO SPEAK OUT.

THAT'S WHY I ENDED UP WRITING MEMOS TO DESCRIBE WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT USAID, HOW ELON MUSK AND HIS MINIONS WERE TEARING THE AGENCY APART WHILE LYING ABOUT IT PUBLICLY AND THE DAMAGE THAT WAS GOES TO CAUSE AROUND THE WORLD FOR YEARS TO COME.

>> LET'S BREAK THAT DOWN A BIT.

WHEN DID THE ALARM BELLS FIRST GO OFF?

YES, THEY THREATENED IT VERBALLY FROM THE BEGINNING.

DID YOU THINK AT THAT TIME THAT IT WOULD LEAD TO THE SHUTTERING OF USAID?

>> ORIGINALLY, NO.

THE FIRST ALARM BELL WAS THE DAY OF THE --SORRY, OF TRUMP'S INAUGURATION WHEN THERE WAS A FREEZE THAT WENT INTO AFFECT ON ALL FOREIGN AID.

I THOUGHT IT MUST BE A MISTAKE, BECAUSE THAT --IF IT MEANT THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN, THAT WOULD ACTUALLY RESULT IN MANY PEOPLE DYING.

I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT THAT WOULD BE THE CASE.

TWO WEEKS INTO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ELON MUSK TWEETED THAT HE JUST SPENT THE WEEKEND FEEDING USAID INTO THE WOOD CHIPPER.

I WAS THE TOP GLOBAL HEALTH OFFICIAL AT USAID AT THE TIME.

I WATCHED IN REAL TIME AS PRETTY MUCH EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID HAPPENED AND THE AGENCY WAS SHREDDED IN THE MOST CRUEL AND INDIFFERENT WAY THAT YOU COULD IMAGINE.

SO MY BOOK IS MY ATTEMPT TO SHOW WHAT IT FELT LIKE FROM INSIDE OF THAT WOOD CHIPPER AS OUR PROGRAMS WERE DESTROYED AND THE INCOMPETENCE AND IGNORANCE OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE IMPOSSIBLE CHOICES THAT CIVIL SERVANTS WERE FORCED INTO AS OUR PROGRAMS COLLAPSED.

>> BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A DRAMATIC THING AND IT WENT AGAINST THE GRAIN OF THE UNITED STATES AND WHAT IT STANDS FOR, SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO OBVIOUSLY WAS CHALLENGED ABOUT IT.

I REMEMBER READING ABOUT --I THINK HE WAS IN PANAMA OR SOMETHING, HONDURAS OR SOMETHING.

THE EMBASSY STAFF CHALLENGED HIM ABOUT THIS.

HE ISSUED A WAIVER.

YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR BOOK FEELING A SENSE OF RELIEF AT THIS WAIVER.

BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE DELUGE GOT WORSE AFTER THAT.

WHAT WAS THE WAIVER?

I KNOW IT WAS DESIGNED TO SAVE LIFE-SAVING PROGRAMS, LET THEM STAY.

DID IT WORK?

HOW WERE YOU FEELING ABOUT WHEN HE MADE THAT WAIVER?

>> WHEN RUBIO FIRST ISSUED THE WAIVER FOR LIFE-SAVING HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE, I WAS RELIEVED.

THIS WAS THE EXCEPTION WE WERE EXPECTING.

OF COURSE, THE ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T MEAN TO LET MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIE AS IT WAS TEARING DOWN OUR AGENCY.

AT LEAST THEY WOULD KEEP THOSE KEY PROGRAMS.

THE REALITY TURNED OUT TO BE FAR FROM THAT.

WE WERE STOPPED AT EVERY POINT ALONG THE WAY FROM TEARING DOWN OUR PAYMENT SYSTEM TO ENSURE THAT OUR PARTNERS IN COUNTRIES COULD NOT WORK TO ELIMINATING OUR EXPERTS WHO WORKED THERE TO BE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT OUR PROGRAMS TO ULTIMATELY CANCELLING ALL OF THE CONTRACTS THAT WE NEEDED TO IMPLEMENT LIFE-SAVING WORK.

WE WERE STOPPED AT EVERY TURN EVEN AS ELON MUSK AND MARCO RUBIO SAID LIFE-SAVING PROGRAMS WERE CONTINUING.

>> SO YOU WOULD SAY, CONCLUDE THEY WERE LYING?

THEY WERE LYING WHEN THEY SAID THEY WOULD CONTINUE?

>> THEY WERE LYING WHEN THEY SAID IT WOULD CONTINUE.

IN FACT, ELON MUSK STOOD AT WHITE HOUSE AND SAID THAT EE LOW BE EBOLA ACTIVITIES WERE CONTINUING THE SAME DAY HIS GE MINIONS WERE ELIMINATING IT.

THAT WAS THE LAST STRAW FOR ME.

THERE IS --NOBODY KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON.

HOWEVER BAD PEOPLE THINK IT IS INSIDE OF THIS AGENCY, IT'S ACTUALLY FAR, FAR WORSE.

>> LET ME PLAY THIS SOUND BITE FROM ELON MUSK, GOES TO THE HEART OF WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

>> I SHOULD SAY, WE WILL MAKE MISTAKES.

WE WON'T BE PERFECT.

WHEN WE MAKE MISTAKES, WE WILL FIX IT QUICKLY.

FOR EXAMPLE, WITH USAID, ONE OF THE THINGS WE ACCIDENTALLY CANCELED BRIEFLY WAS EBOLA.

I THINK WE WANT EBOLA PREVENTION.

WE RESTORED EBOLA PREVENTION IMMEDIATELY.

THERE WAS NO INTERRUPTION.

>> LET'S SAY AGAIN THAT WAS NOT THE TRUTH.

>> THAT STATEMENT WAS COMPLETELY INACCURATE.

IT WAS HIS TEAM THAT WAS AT THE EXACT SAME TIME HE WAS SAYING IT, THEY WERE CANCELLING THE CONTRACTS THAT WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO DO THE EBOLA ACTIVITIES THAT HE WAS SAYING WERE RESTARTING.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO --IF I CAN, SORT OF TELL ME THE LEDGER.

WHAT HAS THIS LED TO?

DEATHS?

TREATMENTS AND THINGS BEING STOPPED, I KNOW, AROUND THE WORLD.

IF YOU WERE TO SUM UP WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE RECIPIENTS OF AID IN THE YEAR THAT IT HAS BEEN SHREDDED.

>> YES.

THE IMPACTS HAVE BEEN CLEAR AND DEVASTATING TO DATE.

APPROXIMATELY 750,000 PEOPLE, MOST OF THOSE CHILDREN, HAVE ALREADY DIED ACCORDING TO CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES.

UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK THE CONCERN IS THE WORST IS YET TO COME.

THAT DEATH AND DESTRUCTION WILL SPREAD OVER TIME AS THE NEXT GENERATION GROWS UP OF CHILDREN WHO DID NOT RECEIVE IMMUNIZATIONS THAT USAID USED TO PROVIDE, BABIES THAT ARE BORN WITH HIV, THAT JUST A YEAR AGO WERE -- RATES WERE NEAR ZERO.

NOW WE ARE SEEING RATES IN SOME CLINICS AS HIGH AS 25%.

I THINK THAT DAMAGE AND DESTRUCTION THAT WE WILL SEE OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS WILL ACTUALLY END UP BEING ONE OF THE MOST IMPACTFUL POLICY DECISIONS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION MADE.

>> WHEN YOU SAY 750,000 DEATHS, IT'S SO SHOCKING THAT IT IS HARD TO COMPUTE.

CERTAINLY, WE HAVE SEEN THE FIGURES.

IT IS REALLY VERY SHOCKING.

ACCORDING TO THE STATISTICS, USAID COST AN AVERAGE OF $24 A YEAR PER AMERICAN.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT WASN'T SOME MASSIVE PART OF GDP AND MASSIVE PART OF THE BUDGET.

MOST AMERICANS THINK THE USAID SHOULD BE A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE.

YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHY THEY WANTED TO GUT IT?

WAS THERE WASTE, FRAUD, MISMANAGEMENT?

WAS THERE A WAY TO DEAL WHATEVER THEY WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT?

>> LOOK, ANY ORGANIZATION AND ANY FEDERAL AGENCY COULD BE MADE MORE EFFICIENT.

USAID WAS NO EXCEPTION.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS KNOWN ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT AS ONE OF THE MOST EFFICIENT OF ALL THE AGENCIES.

FOR LESS THAN 1% OF THE FEDERAL BUDGET, WE SAVE OVER 92 MILLION LIVES OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES ALONE.

WHICH IS JUST --AN INCREDIBLE NUMBER WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT RETURN ON INVESTMENT.

HOWEVER, EVEN IF THERE ARE WAYS TO MAKE THE AGENCY MORE EFFECTIVE AND MORE EFFICIENT, THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS TEAM CAME IN TO DO.

THESE WERE --AGAIN, THESE WERE UNINFORMED, UNQUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS THAT SOME OF THEM WERE VINDICTIVE.

OTHERS WERE JUST CONFUSED AND HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE AGENCY THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DESTROY EVEN DID.

>> WE ALL REMEMBER, BECAUSE WE READ ABOUT IT AND IT'S PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY, THAT IT WAS PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY WHO SET THIS IN MOTION AS A WAY TO EXPAND AMERICA'S INFLUENCE AND ITS SOFT POWER AROUND THE WORLD.

IT WAS A CRUCIAL ELEMENT OF AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY.

YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT THIS.

THE PERSONAL IMPACT ON YOU AS WELL OF ESSENTIALLY ENDING YOUR CIVIL SERVICE CAREER.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE DISBELIEF YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES EXPERIENCED AS THIS AGENCY WAS UNFURLING.

DO YOU HAVE A PASSAGE THAT --THAT YOU WANT TO READ ABOUT THAT?

>> SURE.

YES.

LET ME READ JUST ONE PARAGRAPH.

>> YES.

>> ON THAT VERY TOPIC.

THANK YOU.

HUSTLING BACK TO MY OFFICE, I PASSED THROUGH A HALLWAY IN UPHEAVAL.

FRIENDS WHO WORKED TOGETHER FOR DECADES WERE CRYING AND HUGGING, NOT KNOWING IF OR WHEN THEY WOULD SEE ONE ANOTHER AGAIN.

PROFESSIONALS WHO HAD SPENT THEIR ADULT LIVES TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD A HEALTHIER PLACE STARED BLANKLY, UNSURE OF WHAT THEY WOULD BE DOING TOMORROW OR FOREVER.

WAS THIS REALLY HAPPENING?

WERE WE WITNESSING THE COMPLETE DID I DISINTEGRATION OF AMERICAN FOREIGN AID?

>> WE SEE THESE SAD PICTURES OF YOUR COLLEAGUES HUGGING AND --ON THE LAST DAY OF USAID.

YOUR CAREER HAS ENDED.

DO YOU THINK IT CAN BE REVIVED IF ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION COME S IN THAT BELIEVES IN SOFT POWER AND THE IMPERATIVE OF HELPING PEOPLE AND HUMANITARIAN PROJECTION OF POWER?

>> I HOPE SO.

I BELIEVE THAT WE DO NEED AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT.

PERHAPS WE COULD DO IT DIFFERENTLY.

IT DOES NEED TO COME BACK IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE HAVE A SEPARATE DEPARTMENT OF STATE FROM A DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.

BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE PILLARS OF FOREIGN POLICY.

SO, TOO, IS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT.

I THINK WE NEED A WAY TO EMBODY AMERICAN GENEROSITY.

THERE'S HUGE BENEFITS FOR AMERICA AND FOR THE WORLD.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, AS I SAY GOOD-BYE AND THANK YOU.

YOU REMINDED ME OF A KEY QUOTE FROM TRUMP'S FIRST DEFENSE SECRETARY, GENERAL MATTIS, WHO SAID, IF YOU DON'T FUND THE STATE DEPARTMENT FULLY, THEN I NEED TO BUY MORE AMMUNITION.

I THINK THERE'S --IT IS SUMMED UP WELL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> IT'S NOT JUST USAID AND HUMANITARIAN AID THAT'S BEEN SLASHED.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS SLASHING DEI EFFORTS.

OUR NEXT GUEST WARNS THIS COULD UNDO SO MUCH.

SHE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN HOW SOME COMPANIES ARE ENDING OR HIDING THEIR INCLUSION EFFORTS.

THE CHILLING AFFECT IT'S HAVING ON WOMEN.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US, JOANNE LIPMAN.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT WOMEN AND WORK AND GENDER AND WORK FOR YEARS.

YOU WROTE AN ESSAY IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" WHERE YOU ARGUE THAT WE ARE ENTERING A MOMENT WHERE EVEN TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AT WORK IS BECOMING TABOO.

YOU OPEN WITH THE LINE, BELIEVE WOMEN WAS THE DEFINING MESSAGE OF THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.

TODAY, THERE'S A NEW ONE.

ERASE WOMEN.

THERE'S A LOT TO TALK ABOUT HERE.

WHAT MADE YOU SAY THAT?

WAS THERE SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR THAT CAUGHT YOUR ATTENTION THAT MADE YOU FEEL THAT?

>> SURE.

I HAVE BEEN COVERING WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS.

I HAVE ALSO BEEN AN EDITOR AND EDITOR IN CHIEF OF SEVERAL PUBLICATIONS AND ASSIGNED OF A LOT OF COVERAGE OF WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE.

I NOTICED SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT'S HAPPENING NOW.

THAT IS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN COVERING THE ISSUES, MY IN BOX IS USUALLY FILLED WITH COMPANIES TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE GREAT INITIATIVES THAT THEY HAVE AND THEY WANT TO BOAST ABOUT IT AND HOW WELL THEY'RE DOING.

SUDDENLY, NOT ONLY DID THEY STOP DOING THAT, NOW THEY ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> YOU HAVE AN ANECDOTE WHERE YOU DESCRIBE ASKING A ROOM FULL OF HR EXECUTIVES WHETHER THEIR COMPANIES WERE SUPPORTING DIVERSITY EFFORTS.

YOU SAID EVERY HAND GOES UP.

THEN WHEN YOU ASKED WHO WOULD DAUK ASK ABOUT IT PUBLICLY, YOU SAW EVERY HAND GO DOWN.

>> YES.

I TALKED TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE PRIVATELY.

I TALKED TO EXECUTIVE AT MAJOR COMPANIES THAT IN THE PAST HAVE BEEN BANGING THEIR CHESTS ABOUT HOW GREAT THEY ARE WITH DIVERSITY.

AS ONE OF THE EXECUTIVES SAID, THEY SAID, THERE'S FEAR.

IT IS FEAR BOTH BECAUSE OF ALL THE ANTI- DEI MEASURES THAT ARE COMING DOWN FROM WASHINGTON, BUT ALSO FEAR OF RIGHT WING ACTIVISTS, FEAR OF MISOGYNISTIC TROLLS.

THERE'S A FEAR OF EVEN RAISING YOUR HAND A LITTLE BIT.

THERE'S A FEAR OF EVEN MENTIONING THE WORD WOMEN, FEMALE.

SO PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EFFORTS AT ALL.

IT HAS LED TO ABSOLUTELY INSANE KINDS OF EVASIONS THAT WE ARE SEEING.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A MEDICAL NEWSLETTER THAT ACTUALLY ADVISED ITS READERS TO STRIP OUT THE WORDS FEMALE OR WOMEN FROM ANY OF THEIR RESEARCH GRANTS.

EVEN THOSE THAT HAVE DO WITH WOMEN, OBVIOUSLY.

THERE WAS AN EXAMPLE OF A RESEARCHER WHO WAS LOOKING AT MATERNAL MORTALITY WHO FELT LIKE THEY HAD TO STRIP OUT REFERENCES TO WOMEN IN ORDER TO GET FEDERAL FUNDING FOR THAT.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THIS POINT BEFORE.

BUT THEY ARE ARGUING THIS ISN'T SUBSTANTIVE.

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT'S A RHETORICAL OR BRANDING SHIFT BUT NOT A SUBSTANTIVE ROLLBACK.

>> FOR SURE, THERE ARE PEOPLE -- ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE COMMITTED TO EQUITY AND DIVERSITY.

THAT ARE REBRANDING THEIR PROGRAMS.

THE ISSUE IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE FEAR THAT IS OUT THERE, WE ARE SEEING LITERAL ROLLBACKS.

WE SEE REAL IMPACT BECAUSE OF THAT.

WE ARE SEEING THE WAGE GAP HAS INCREASED, GENDER WAGE GAP HAS INCREASED FOR TWO YEARS IN A ROW.

WE ARE SEEING WOMEN DISPROPORTIONALLY PARTICULARLY MOTHERS OF YOUNG CHILDREN LEAVING THE WORKFORCE.

WE ARE SEE ING SOME PRETTY ALARMING THINGS THAT ARE COMING ACTUALLY FROM THE ADMINISTRATION LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED NATIONS HAS EVERY YEAR PUT OUT THIS SORT OF STATEMENT ABOUT WOMEN AND EQUALITY.

35 NATIONS SIGNED OFF ON THIS EVERY YEAR.

IT'S BASICALLY, WE BELIEVE IN NOT HAVING LEGISLATION AGAINST WOMEN.

IT'S PRETTY BASIC.

FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, THE UNITED STATES REFUSED TO SIGN OFF ON IT CALLING IT GENDER IDIOTOLOGY.

>> ARE YOU SURE IT'S DUE TO ERASING?

>> SO, LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK FOR A SECOND.

DURING COVID, WOMEN LEFT THE WORKFORCE.

THEN WHEN KIDS WENT BACK TO SCHOOL, PEOPLE STARTED WORKING REMOTELY.

WOMEN POURED INTO THE WORKFORCE.

WE HAD A HISTORIC HIGH NUMBER OF WOMEN PROPELLED BY MOTHERS OF YOUNG CHILDREN WHO WANTED TO WORK OR WHO NEEDED TO WORK WHO WERE ABLE TO WORK IN A WAY THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO BEFORE BECAUSE THE ABILITY TO WORK GENERALLY HYBRID REMOTE, NOT FULLY BUT HYBRID REMOTE WAS A HUGE PLUS.

WHAT'S HAPPENED IS IN THAT CASE, YOU HAVE THE SITUATION WHERE ONE OF THE FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDERS TO COME OUT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION WAS THAT EVERYBODY HAS TO BE BACK AT WORK FIVE DAYS A WEEK.

THAT GAVE THE EXCUSE TO A LOT OF COMPANIES THROUGHOUT TO SAY, OKAY, EVERYBODY HAS TO BE BACK IN THE OFFICE.

THAT'S THE PRIMARY ISSUE FOR MOTHERS OF YOUNG KIDS.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO THIS ISSUE OF ERASING.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS SOMETHING I HAVE NOT SEEN BEFORE OR WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN MANY YEARS WHICH IS THERE'S AN EMBARRASSMENT TO TALK ABOUT AND A FEAR OF TALKING ABOUT WOMEN, PERIOD, BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU A TARGET.

WE HAVE SEEN, YES, WE HAVE SEEN THIS IS TOP DOWN ADMINISTRATION WHERE YOU HAVE SEEN TRUMP ALLIES WHO BLAME WOMEN FOR EVERYTHING.

THEY ARE BLAMED FOR THE CALIFORNIA WILDFIRES.

THEY ARE BLAMED FOR THE PLANE CRASH.

WOMEN GET BLAMED.

PETE HEGSETH HAS BEEN FIRING FEMALE OFFICERS.

WHAT CONCERNED ME WAS LESS THAT AND MORE OF THE BOTTOM UP.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE AFRAID TO EVEN UTTER THE WORD WOMEN TO TALK AT ALL ABOUT WOMEN FOR FEAR THAT THEY WILL BE TARGETED.

THEY ARE ACTUALLY GOING FURTHER THAN THEY NEED TO, FURTHER THAN THEY WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS ASKING THEM TO DO.

THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE DE-FUNDING THINGS LIKE THE EMPLOYEE RESOURCE GROUPS WHICH ARE GROUPS CENTERED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE WOMEN, PEOPLE OF COLOR, LGBTQ PEOPLE.

THESE GROUPS ARE LEGAL AS LONG AS ANYONE CAN JOIN , BUT THEY ARE GETTING CLOSED DOWN BECAUSE COMPANIES ARE AFRAID THAT SIMPLY HAVING THEM WILL MAKE THEM A TARGET.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT REALLY CONCERNS ME.

WHAT ACTUALLY GOT ME STARTED ON THIS WAS I WAS JUST INTERESTED IN HOW WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE WERE DOING A YEAR AFTER THE ADMINISTRATION STARTED CRACKING DOWN ON DEI, ON DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION.

AT FIRST, I THOUGHT WE WOULD FIND POSITIVE RESULTS, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT MAYBE DID AWAY WITH THE SCHOLARSHIP OR THE TRAINING PROGRAM THAT'S ONLY FOR WOMEN, BUT THEY OPENED UP OTHER PROGRAMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY FOR EVERYONE BUT DISPROPORTIONATELY HELP, BOOST THE FORTUNES OF WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THINGS LIKE MENTORSHIP PROGRAMS THAT ARE OPEN TO EVERYONE.

THINGS LIKE CHILDCARE WHICH ACTUALLY HELPS MEN AS MUCH AS WOMEN.

CHILDCARE ASSISTANCE.

THERE WAS A PIECE BY A COUPLE OF SOCIOLOGISTS.

THEY WROTE THIS PIECE NAMING SEVERAL COMPANIES AND PROGRAMS THAT THEY HAVE PUT IN PLACE THAT WERE FOR EVERYONE AND HAD VERY POSITIVE OUTCOMES FOR WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THEY NAMED A COUPLE OF COMPANIES, INCLUDING IBM, WALMART, THE GAP.

I THOUGHT, THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING.

SO I CALLED ALL OF THOSE COMPANIES TO SAY, HEY, CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT?

NONE OF THEM WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> AT LEAST THEY'RE DOING IT, WHICH LEADS ME TO MY OTHER QUESTION HERE.

IS THERE A SUBSTANTIVE RESULT OF NOT WANTING TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN OR TAKING WOMEN AS A SORT OF SUBJECT OF CONCERN OFF THE TABLE?

>> WHAT WE FOUND SO FAR IS IT'S EARLY DAYS.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS WE'RE NO LONGER REPORTING A LOT OF THE NUMBERS.

IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO TELL.

MAJOR COMPANIES HAVE STOPPED.

THEY USED TO TALK ABOUT WORKFORCE DIVERSITY DATA.

THE SHARE OF THE S&P 500 COMPANIES THAT TALK ABOUT HOW MANY --DISCLOSED HOW MANY WOMEN ARE ON THE BOARD HAS FALLEN BY ABOUT A THIRD.

THE COMPANIES THAT USED TO SHARE ETHNIC, RACIAL AND GENDER DIVERSITY OF THEIR WORKFORCES AND IMPORTANTLY OF THEIR WORKFORCE DIVIDED BY JOB LEVEL, SO YOU CAN SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN MANAGEMENT, THEY STOPPED REPORTING IT.

WE ARE A LITTLE FLYING BLIND TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU ARE NOT SEEING IT AND YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT IT, IT'S VERY, VERY EASY FOR THAT PROGRESS TO REVERSE.

I NOTICED, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A REPORT ON WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE.

I NOTICED THIS YEAR THAT THE NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS FELL BY MORE THAN HALF, EVEN THOUGH THE PARTICIPANT COMPANIES ARE ANONYMOUS.

IT FELL BY MORE THAN HALF.

THE CORPORATE EQUALITY INDEX, SAME THING.

PARTICIPANTS FELL MORE THAN IN HALF.

EVEN SO, THE REPORT FOUND THAT WOMEN FELT LIKE THEY HAD LESS SUPPORT AND FEWER CAREER OPPORTUNITIES.

AGAIN, I THINK WHAT I WOULD SAY ON THE POSITIVE SIDE IS THERE ARE LOTS OF PROGRAMS THAT CORPORATIONS CAN EMBRACE THAT ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL THAT ARE OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE THAT ACTUALLY HAVE A REALLY POSITIVE IMPACT.

WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A DECLINE IN THE OPPORTUNITY FOR WOMEN AND FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR.

BUT IF YOU DON'T COUNT IT, IF YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT IT, IT'S REALLY EASY TO BACKSLIDE.

>> THE IRONY IS THAT, THE PRESIDENT -- PRESIDENT TRUMP ON ONE HAND HAS GIVEN WOMEN A NUMBER OF IMPORTANT REALLY CRITICAL ROLES IN HIS ADMINISTRATION.

THEY ARE THE FIRST PEOPLE HE FIRED WHEN HE WAS --IT'S INTERESTING TO CONTEMPLATE.

>> THE CONVERSATION AT THE TOP IS ONE THING.

THE FEAR THAT IS REALLY LEADING TO THIS BACKLASH AGAINST ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH WOMEN IS REALLY CONCERNING.

YOU SEE UNIVERSITIES THAT NO LONGER WILL TALK ABOUT THE WOMEN'S CENTER ON - -THEY WILL TALK ABOUT CULTURAL CENTERS.

BUT THEY ARE TAKING OUT WORDS LIKE WOMEN.

LOOK AT ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT USED TO SUPPORT --YOU USED TO SEE ADS FOR WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH.

YOU WOULD BE FORGIVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW WE FINISHED WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH BECAUSE IT WAS SO QUIET.

THERE WERE --I THINK IT WAS OHIO UNIVERSITY THAT HAD EVERY SINGLE YEAR THIS BIG CELEBRATING WOMEN EVENT.

THEY CANCELED IT AT THE LAST MINUTE.

WE ARE SEEING -- WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS VERY CONCERNING FOR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

>> PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE.

IS IT REALLY WRONG FOR PUBLIC FACING ORGANIZATIONS , PUBLICLY TRADED ORGANIZATIONS TO BE RESPONSIVE TO THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT?

THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WILL SEEK RETRIBUTION AGAINST ENTITIES THAT THEY DON'T LIKE.

>> THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMPANIES THAT ARE CONTINUING TO DO THE WORK OF DIVERSITY, NOT TALKING ABOUT IT.

VERSUS THOSE WHO ARE GOING FURTHER THAN WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF THEM.

COMPANIES THAT ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL.

PEOPLE, RESEARCHERS, MEDICAL RESEARCHERS WHO ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL AND YET ARE FEELING THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE LEGAL.

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE GOING FURTHER THAN WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF THEM.

I WILL ALSO SAY THAT WE SAW A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PERFORMATIVE NONSENSE OUT OF COMPANIES.

THAT HAS DEFINITELY GONE AWAY.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING ISSUES IS THAT PARTICULARLY AFTER THE 2020 MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD WHERE COMPANIES CAME OUT -- THEY COMMITTED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

THEY MADE BIG GRAND, SWEEPING STATEMENTS.

MANY OF THE COMPANIES WERE -- IT WAS PERFORMATIVE.

THEY WERE OVER THEIR SKIS AND PROMISING THINGS THEY WERE NOT GOING TO DELIVER.

THEY WERE POURING MONEY INTO THINGS THAT REALLY HAD ZERO IMPACT.

A LOT OF THAT HAS GONE AWAY.

THAT'S ALL FOR THE GOOD.

I THINK THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE STILL COMMITTED TO DIVERSITY ARE STILL DOING IT.

THEY ARE COMMITTED.

THEY ARE JUST DOING IT QUIETLY.

>> WHO SHOULD BE CALLED OUT IN YOUR OPINION?

>> I DO THINK THAT ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE GOING WAY TOO FAR, THAT ARE RETREATING MORE THAN THEY HAVE TO ARE PUTTING THE REST OF US IN A FRAUGHT AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS POSITION.

I HEARD FROM SO MANY PEOPLE AFTER THIS PIECE CAME OUT WHO ARE LIKE, WHO IS GOING TO STAND UP TO THIS?

WE HAVE SEEN THAT ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO STAND UP, WHEN WE HAVE SEEN IT IN OTHER ARENAS, WITH LAW FIRMS THAT HAVE STOOD UP AND SOME OF THE UNIVERSITIES THAT HAVE STOOD UP TO SOME OF THE ATTACKS THAT HAVE GONE TOO FAR, THEY HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

THERE ARE COMPANIES, LARGE COMPANIES THAT ARE STILL COMMITTED TO A DIVERSE WORKFORCE, EQUALITY.

WHICH DOESN'T MEAN GIVING PREFERENCE TO WOMEN OR TO PEOPLE OF COLOR.

IT SIMPLY MEANS GIVING PREFERENCE TO TALENT AND NOT FIRING BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE OR ETHNICITY OR GENDER.

>> COLLECTIVE RESPONSE IS DIFFICULT UNLESS YOU FIND PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THESE SETS OF ISSUES.

INDIVIDUALLY, ARE THERE THINGS PEOPLE COULD BE DOING?

>> YES.

FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO SAY THIS IS NOT A WOMEN ISSUE.

THIS IS REALLY A SOCIAL --SOCIETY ISSUE AND DEMOCRACY ISSUE.

AT HEART, THIS IS A DEMOCRACY ISSUE.

LOOK AT THE AUTOCRAT PLAYBOOK, WHICH MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TALKED ABOUT, ONE OF THE MAJOR FEATURES OF THE AUTOCRAT'S PLAYBOOK IS THE REPRESSION OF WOMEN, ERASING OF WOMEN.

THE REASON IS THAT WHEN WOMEN MOBILIZE, THEY --WOMEN ARE OBVIOUSLY A LITTLE MORE THAN HALF OF THE POPULATION.

WHEN THEY DO MOBILIZE, THEY TEND TO MOBILIZE IN THE DIRECTION OF EGALITARIANISM AND DEMOCRACY.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE AUTOCRATS TO PUT THAT DOWN.

THAT'S ALSO RELATED TO THIS ISSUE OF PRONATALISM THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE HOME HAVING KIDS.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE PREMISE THAT THIS IS A WOMEN PROBLEM, I WOULD REJECT.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, AS A PERSON WHO COVERED THE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT FOR YEARS, WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO COMPANIES ABOUT WHY THIS IS IN THEIR BEST INTEREST TO DO?

NOT JUST TO RESIST BUT TO DO WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY THEY WERE DOING BEFORE, WHICH IS TO OPEN THE S AND MAKE SURE THE BEST PEOPLE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO THRIVE AND CONTRIBUTE.

>> CAN I JUST EMPHASIZE EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID?

THE BEST PEOPLE.

YOU WANT THE BEST PEOPLE.

EVERY PIECE OF RESEARCH SHOWS YOU THAT DIVERSE ORGANIZATIONS OUTPERFORM HOMOGENOUS ORGANIZATIONS.

THERE HAS BEEN RESEARCH ON THIS.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE THINGS IMPROVED WITH DIVERSE WORKFORCES.

THERE WAS A PIECE OF RESEARCH THAT FOUND THAT A DIVERSE WILL MORE ACCURATELY SOLVE THE MURDER MYSTERY THAN A HOMOGENOUS GROUP.

I BELIEVE EVERY CEO, EVERY CFO, CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICE, IT IS IN THEIR INTEREST AND THEY SHOULD BET HELD TO ACCOUNT BECAUSE WE KNOW THE DIVERSE ORGANIZATIONS PERFORM BETTER.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> >> ICELAND 50 YEARS AGO HAD ALL WOMEN GO ON STRIKE.

THEY DIDN'T CALL IT A STRIKE, BUT ON HOMEFRONT, THEY DID THIS.

IT MADE THEM ONE OF THE MOST PRODUCTIVE SOCIETIES IN THE WORLD.

JUST A THOUGHT.

> >> FINALLY, FOR UKRAINIANS, LAST NIGHT RUSSIA LAUNCHED ONE OF ITS LARGEST ATTACKS THIS YEAR, KILLING 18 PEOPLE AND WOUNDING MORE THAN 100.

EVERYONE DOES WHAT THEY CAN TO TRY TO SURVIVE AND THRIVE.

SOME OLDER RESIDENTS IN ODESSA ARE CHANNELLING IT THROUGH THEIR OUTFITS.

IN AN ESSAY FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," ALYONA SYNENKO PROFILES THE CIVILIANS.

SHE JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

WE HAVE SPOKEN BEFORE WHEN WE WERE BOTH IN KYIV.

IT'S REALLY --I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THE PICTURES OF WHAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT, YOU WERE LIVING IT.

HOW ARE YOU AFTER THE TERRIBLE BARRAGE?

>> IT WAS A TERRIBLE NIGHT FOR EVERYBODY HERE AND OTHER PLACES.

WE DID MANAGE TO SLEEP.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, THIS NIGHT, IT WAS JUST ONE AMONG MANY OTHERS.

THIS HAS BEEN BECOME A ROUTINE.

JUMPING OUT OF BED IN THE MIDDLE OF NIGHT AND RUNNING TO HIDE BETWEEN THE TWO WALLS OR IN A SHELTER IS JUST WHAT EVERYBODY DOES HERE.

OUR EXPECTATIONS ARE GETTING LOWER EVERY DAY.

IF YOU WAKE UP IN THE MORNING AND YOUR BUILDING IS STANDING, THEN THAT IS --WE CONSIDER IT A GOOD NIGHT.

>> IT'S REALLY INCREDIBLE TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT.

THAT'S WHY I WAS SO BLOWN AWAY BY THE ESSAY AND THE PHOTOS YOU DISPLAYED OF MANY RESIDENTS OF ODESSA, PARTICULARLY ELDERLY ONES, REALLY TRYING TO HAVE A GOOD DAY UNDER THIS TERRIBLE CONDITION.

THEY ARE JUST JOYFUL PICTURES THAT WE'RE GOING TO SHOW OF PEOPLE DRESSING UP IN THEIR BEST, BEST OUTFITS.

HOW DID YOU COME ACROSS IT?

DID YOU NOTICE EVERYBODY GETTING DRESSED UP?

WHAT MADE YOU FOCUS ON IT?

>> THE PHOTOGRAPHER WHO TOOK PICTURES, SHE HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING AND FOLLOWING THIS SUBJECT OF THIS PECULIAR STYLE OF ODESSA FOR MANY YEARS.

SHE HAS A BLOG THAT CALLS ODESSA STYLE.

BESIDES THE CLOTHES --IT'S PART OF THE CULTURE AND IDENTITY.

ODESSA IS A PORT.

IT'S A SOUTHERN CITY, WHERE TRADITIONALLY THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF MIX OF DIFFERENT CULTURES, DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.

THIS DIVERSITY AND THIS PRODUCED THIS VERY PECULIAR CULTURE AND VISUAL IDENTITY AS WELL.

>> THE PIECE YOU WROTE TO DRESS UP IS TO LIVE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT ONE OF THE ELDERLY LADIES.

SHE IS 94 YEARS OLD.

YOU INTERVIEWED HER.

YOU DESCRIBE HER AS ONE OF THE BEST DRESSED PEOPLE YOU HAVE EVER SEEN.

TELL US WHAT SHE TOLD ABOUT YOU WHY SHE DOES IT.

>> SHE WAS VERY SIMPLE.

FIRST, SHE'S NOT JUST ONE OF THE BEST DRESSED PEOPLE I HAVE EVER SEEN, SHE'S ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLE PEOPLE I HAVE EVER SEEN.

THIS WOMAN IS SUCH AN INSPIRATION AND BRINGS SO MUCH JOY.

I'M SO PRIVILEGED AND LUCKY TO HAVE MET HER.

SHE SURVIVED THE HOLOCAUST IN ODESSA.

SHE REMEMBERS THE HORRORS THAT HAPPENED UNDER ROMANIAN OCCUPATION.

DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

SHE TOLD ME STORIES ABOUT HOW SHE LEARNED TO --AS A YOUNG CHILD, SHE CUT HER MOTHER'S DRESS.

HER MOTHER'S ONLY GOOD DRESS TO MAKE HERSELF A DRESS.

FROM THAT TIME ON, HER MOTHER TOLD HER, OKAY, NOW YOU WILL JUST TO MAKE YOUR OWN CLOTHES.

SHE'S BEEN MAKING HER OWN CLOTHES ALL HER LIFE.

SHE'S AN ENGINEER.

SHE HAS LIVED AN INCREDIBLE LIFE.

JUST SEEING THIS SPIRIT, THIS STYLE, THIS ELEGANCE, IT'S A PRIVILEGE.

HONESTLY, I TAKE A LOT OF INSPIRATION FROM HER.

>> IT'S INCREDIBLE.

IT'S NOT JUST THE WOMEN.

IT'S THE MEN AS WELL.

YOU PROFILED A 74-YEAR- OLD MAN.

HE HARDLY LEAVES HIS HOUSE EXCEPT TO WALK HIS DOG.

WHEN HE DOES, IT'S QUITE A PRESENCE.

>> YES.

HE IS A PERSONALITY.

HE USED TO BE AN ACTOR.

HE IS KNOWN IN THE CITY.

A LOT OF MY FRIENDS KNOW HIM.

A LOT OF GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE FROM ODESSA KNOW HIM.

AGAIN, IT IS A LOT OF INSPIRATION TO SEE THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE THEM, THEY BRIGHTEN UP YOUR DAY.

WE HAVEN'T HAD A LOT OF THINGS HAPPENING AROUND HERE THAT --TO LIFT OUR SPIRITS LATELY.

SEEING THEM, I THINK WE CAN LEARN A LOT FROM THEM.

ALSO, HEARING THEM.

WHEN YOU SIT DOWN AND TALK TO THEM, SOME OF THE THINGS THEY SAY ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES AND ABOUT HOW THEY SEE THINGS , AGAIN, IT'S VERY --IT INSPIRES ME A LOT.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU.

YOU SAID HOW IT INSPIRES YOU.

HOW DO THE GENERAL PUBLIC WHEN THEY SEIZE THESE INCREDIBLY WELL-DRESSED PEOPLE RECLAIMING THEIR HUMANITY IN THE MIDST OF THIS WAR, HOW DOES IT AFFECT THEM?

DO THEY TELL YOU HOW THEY SURVIVED THE PREVIOUS WARS?

CAN THEY HELP YOU LIKE THAT?

>> FOR ME PERSONALLY, THEY CERTAINLY HAVE.

WE HAVE HAD A TERRIBLE NIGHT.

BUT WE HAVE HAD A TERRIBLE WINTER WITHOUT ELECTRICITY, WITHOUT HEATING IN SUBZERO TEMPERATURES.

FOR ME, SOMETIMES THERE'S JUST NO HOPE.

THERE WILL NO MEANINGFUL PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, NO DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS.

EVERY DAY IS JUST GETTING WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE.

SOMETIMES THERE'S JUST --YOU THINK, HOW AM I GOING TO GET THROUGH ANOTHER DAY?

THEN WHEN I MET THE WOMAN AND SHE TOLD ME HOW SHE SAW PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, SHE SPENT YEARS HIDING WITH HER MOTHER IN THE CELLAR, I LOOK AT HER AND I THINK, SHE SURVIVED AND HAD AN AMAZING LIFE.

WHO AM I TO SIT HERE AND WHINE ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT OUR LIFE IS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT EXPERIENCING A FRACTION OF WHAT THEY HAVE LIVED THROUGH?

>> AMAZING.

IT'S AN AMAZING STORY.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT TO US.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.