>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I THINK PROVIDING A TWO UKRAINE IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

>> THE HOUSE SPEAKER RISKS HIS JOB TO GET HELP TO KYIV.

I ASK IF IT IS A GAME CHANGER OR TOO LITTLE TOO LATE .

>>> AGONY AND DESPAIR AFTER A STRIKE ON A REFUGEE CAMP KILLS MORE CHILDREN IN GAZA.

WE BRING YOU A HARROWING REPORT.

>> THE WORLD RIGHT NOW IS A SERIES OF VACUUMS THAT ONE GREAT TOWER OR ANOTHER IS GOING TO FILL.

>>> NEW COLD WAR'S.

OUR NATIONAL SECURITY TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON.

>> PEOPLE OF COLOR HAVE BEEN >>> AT THE MET I SIT DOWN WITH TERRENCE, THE FIRST BLACK COMPOSER TO BRING A PIECE TO THAT STAGE IN ITS 138 YEARS .

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY HAS BEEN MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK J. BLECHNER, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT IS MAKE OR BREAK MOMENT FOR UKRAINE AS THE U.S. CONGRESS LOOKS CLOSER THAN EVER TO FINALLY PUSHING THROUGH ITS LONG STALLED AID PACKAGE.

HOUSE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON IS RISKING HIS JOB TO GET THAT MONEY TO KYIV, MOVING FORWARD DESPITE A COUPLE OF OUTLINERS WILLING TO OUST HIM.

IT INCLUDES AID FOR ISRAEL AND TAIWAN AND ADDITIONAL MONEY FOR HUMANITARIAN RELIEF.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID HE WOULD SIGN IT INTO LAW IMMEDIATELY.

UKRAINE HAS HAD TO RELY ON OTHER ALLIES INCLUDING THE CZECH REPUBLIC WHICH HAS PIONEERED AN EFFORT TO GET AMMUNITION FROM THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES.

LAST MONTH THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT MET WITH HIM.

HE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST OUTSPOKEN EUROPEAN LEADERS ON COUNTERING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION WARNING THAT IF UKRAINE FAILS SO WILL BE.

HE IS A FORMER TOP NATO GENERAL AND JOINED ME FROM PRAGUE TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM >> THANK YOU.

>> YOU REALLY STOOD OUT WHEN YOU CALLED FOR EUROPEANS AND HE WOULD ORGANIZE ONE AND A HALF- MILLION SHELLS OF AMMUNITION FOR UKRAINE.

AS YET IT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

WHERE DO YOU STAND?

WHERE DOES EUROPE STAND ON WHAT THEY CAN PROVIDE UKRAINE?

>> THIS INITIATIVE WAS LAUNCHED BECAUSE WE REALIZE THAT THE CZECH REPUBLIC AND OTHER COUNTRIES DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES IN STOCK TO GIVE TO UKRAINE.

THAT IS WHY WE STARTED LOOKING ELSEWHERE THIS AMMUNITION OR EQUIPMENT WAS AVAILABLE TO RAISE ENOUGH MONEY AND SUPPORT WE RAISED AND ASKED OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS TO JOIN US IN THIS INITIATIVE TO ACQUIRE AS MUCH YOU --MUNITION FOR UKRAINE IS NECESSARY.

WE HAVE FOUND MORE THAN 1 MILLION ROUNDS AROUND THE GLOBE.

THERE ARE OTHER INITIATIVES ONGOING SO HOPEFULLY THEY WILL LEAD TO THE PROVISION OF NECESSARY EQUIPMENT TO UKRAINE ON TIME.

>> WHEN YOU SAY YOU IDENTIFIED, HAVE YOU PROCURED THEM?

HAVE YOU BOUGHT THEM?

>> SO FAR WE HAVE BOUGHT 300,000 ROUNDS .

FOR THE REMAINDER THE NEGOTIATION IS ONGOING .

OBVIOUSLY IT TAKES SOME TIME WITH ALL OF THE PARTNERS WHO ARE PROVIDING SOURCES AS WELL AS WITH THE COUNTRY'S PROVIDING AMMUNITION.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, I JUST WANT TO SAY A RECENT REPORT FROM THE EU.

COUNTRIES DON'T SEEM TO BE BUYING THIS STUFF TOGETHER EVEN THOUGH I RECALL MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT JOINING FORCES AND GETTING THIS AMMUNITION TOGETHER APPARENTLY YOU HAVE PURCHASED ABOUT Aá350 MILLION WORTH OF AMMUNITION VIA THE EUROPEAN DEFENSE AGENCY THAT THE AGENCY IS OFFERING 1.5 BILLION WHICH IS NOT BEING PROCURED.

>> IF YOU IDENTIFY THE AMMUNITION AT A COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT WISH TO BE KNOWN FOR QUITE OBVIOUS REASONS WITH REGARD TO THEIR RELATIONS TO RUSSIA, SUCH A NEGOTIATION IS QUITE CONFIDENTIAL.

THE MORE NATIONS, THE MORE ACTORS IN THIS ENDEAVOR , WORSE FOR THE CASE.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE TRYING TO KEEP IT CONFIDENTIAL , TO NEGOTIATE DIRECTLY WITH THE SMALLEST POSSIBLE NUMBER OF FACTORS.

>> OKAY.

YOU HAVE PROBABLY HEARD THE DEFENSE SECRETARY OF THE UNITED STATES HAVE SAID THAT RUSSIA IS MAKING INCREMENTAL GAINS AND MOVING ONTO THE FRONT FOOT AND BEGINNING TO REALLY PRESS ITS ADVANTAGE .

WHAT DO YOU --HOW MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE WILL IT MAKE FOR YOU AND YOUR EFFORT IN UKRAINE IF THE HOUSE PASSES THIS AID BILL ON SATURDAY NIGHT.

>> WE ARE HOPEFUL THE BILL WILL BE PASSED ON SATURDAY BECAUSE U.S. ASSISTANCE HAS HELPED UKRAINE AND CANNOT BE REPLACED .

YOU -- EUROPEAN NATIONS ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY BUT THE UNITED STATES STILL PROVIDES AT LEAST 50% OF IT.

THAT IS WHY WE ALL COUNT ON THE RIGHT AMERICAN DECISION.

>> THIS WEEK THE PRIME MINISTER OF YOUR COUNTRY WAS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AND ALSO WITH THE HOUSE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON ON THIS ISSUE.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF HOW HE DESCRIBED THIS SITUATION.

>> IN 1968 I WAS A LITTLE BOY.

IN 1968 , I SAW RUSSIAN TANKS IN THE STREETS OF MY TOWN , AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS AGAIN.

SO WE MUST CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

>> THAT WAS BRINGING HISTORY TO PLAY.

I WONDER WHETHER THE PRIME MINISTER GOT A GOOD ANSWER , OBVIOUSLY FROM BIDEN HE DID BUT FROM THE HOUSE.

DO YOU KNOW?

>> FROM WHAT I KNOW FROM THE MEETING OF OUR PRIME MINISTER , WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND ALSO IN THE CONGRESS, WE ARE SUCCESSFUL IN TERMS OF PASSING OUR ARGUMENTS .

OF COURSE, OUR PRIME MINISTER DID NOT RECEIVE ANY PROMISE BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE DONE.

WE ALL HOPE THE VOTE WILL BE GOOD AND THE BILL WILL PASS ON SATURDAY.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF SOME OF THE SENATORS, EVEN, NOT JUST THE CONGRESSPEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE TRUMP, WHAT WE CALL THE MAGA GROUP OF TRUMP REPUBLICANS.

SENATORS LIKE JD VANCE OF OHIO WHO HAS BEEN, EVER SINCE THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, ESSENTIALLY MAKING A CASE THAT UKRAINE DOES NOT MATTER .

>> I BELIEVE THAT UKRAINE IS IT IS FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THE REST OF THE WORLD.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE DEFENSE OF A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY AND ITS TERRITORY.

IT'S ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES.

THESE PRINCIPLES MATTER FOR THE UNITED STATES THE SAME WAY AS FOR US .

IF RUSSIA SUCCEEDS IN UKRAINE, THE WHOLE TRANSATLANTIC COMMUNITY WILL NOT BE TRUSTED ANYMORE BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PROTECTING OUR VALUES BUT WE ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH TO PROTECT THEM AND PRACTICE.

MOREOVER, THERE ARE COUNTRIES WATCHING CLOSELY WHAT IS GOING ON IN RUSSIA.

IF RUSSIA PREVAILS WITH ITS ATTITUDE TO PUSHING ITS INTEREST BY FORCE, ALL COUNTRIES THAT ARE WATCHING WILL BE INSPIRED .

STARTING WITH CHINA, A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES AND AFRICA , THE MIDDLE EAST AND ASIA .

I BELIEVE IT IS CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ALL DELIVER ALL NECESSARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE TO PREVAIL AND PUSH RUSSIA BACK.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, YOU HAVE SAID IT IS IN CHINA'S INTEREST TO PROLONG THE STATUS QUO WERE IN UKRAINE.

DO YOU STILL FEEL THAT AND WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> FOR CHINA THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS AN OPEN TEXTBOOK.

CHINA IS TESTING THE WEST REACTION TO DIFFERENT SITUATIONS AND ARGUMENTS.

OF COURSE, THE LONGER THE WAR TAKES THE MORE INFLUENCE CHINA GETS IN RUSSIA AND A NUMBER OF OTHER COUNTRIES .

RUSSIA IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

THAT STATE OF THINGS IS QUITE CONVENIENT FOR CHINA.

THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE CHINA DOES NOT HAVE A DIRECT INTEREST TO END THE CONFLICT SOON.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, YOU MUST BE SEEING THESE REPORTS THAT SAY RUSSIA IS BEING VERY SUCCESSFUL IN ITS HISTORIC PROPAGANDA EFFORTS TO TWIST THE INTENTIONS AND INFLUENCE THE INTENTIONS OF AMERICAN LAWMAKERS AND MAYBE EVEN AMERICAN PEOPLE, TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM HELPING UKRAINE.

>> WE HAVE OUR OWN EXPERIENCE WITH RUSSIA OR AT THE TIME SOVIET UNION.

UNFORTUNATELY FOR US AND FOR THE WORLD, CURRENT RUSSIA IS NOT MUCH DIFFERENT FROM THE FORMER SOVIET UNION IN PURSUING THEIR INTEREST BY FORCE.

THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT MANY TIMES SUGGESTED THAT THOSE WHO ARE POWERFUL WOULD DO WHAT THEY CAN.

ALL THE REST WILL DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO.

I THINK WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE ONLY THOSE WHO ARE POWERFUL WILL DESIGN THE ROLES .

THAT IS WHY WE ARE ALL TRYING TO MAINTAIN ROLES BASED RESPECT TO THE NORMS, TO THE U.N. CHARTER.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

THIS IS THE WORLD IN WHICH WE WANT TO LIVE.

>> NOW YOU CAN SEE A WHOLE ANOTHER WARM OUR DOORSTEP.

POTENTIALLY IRAN AND ISRAEL.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO REFLECT ON WHAT HAPPENED WHEN ALLIES CAME TO THE AID OF ISRAEL, THE DEFENSE OF ISRAEL AND THE DEFENSE OF A MISSILE BARRAGE.

ISRAEL IS NOT A NATO COUNTRY.

THAT WAS NOTICED AND COMMENTED ON BY THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT WHO IS ASKING, WE HAVE BEEN ASKING YOU TO SECURE OUR SKIES AND HELP US ALSO DEFEND AGAINST THESE RUSSIAN AND IRANIAN PROJECTILES.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> AFTER YESTERDAY'S ATTACK I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION.

IS ISRAEL PART OF NATO OR NOT?

HERE IS THE ANSWER.

ISRAEL IS NOT A NATO COUNTRY.

ISRAEL.

THEY SHOWED THE IRANIAN FORCES THAT ISRAEL WAS NOT ALONE.

THIS IS A LESSON.

THIS IS A RESPONSE TO ANYONE ON ANY CONTINENT WHO SAYS WE NEED TO ASSIST UKRAINE VERY CAREFULLY SO YOU DO NOT ENGAGE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WAR.

>> AS A FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF OF ARMED FORCES AND FORMER NATO GENERAL AND SENIOR OFFICIAL, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD.

RIGHT?

>> ON THE ONE HAND I FULLY UNDERSTAND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S FRUSTRATION.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE IRANIAN ATTACK WAS NOT PUSHED BACK , IF THERE WAS NO COORDINATION AMONG ANOTHER NUMBER OF FACTORS TO PREVENT SERIOUS DAMAGE I THINK IT WAS AN EFFORT TO PREVENT ANOTHER WAR .

IF THAT ATTACK WAS NOT ANNOUNCED UP FRONT, IF THE ATTACK CAUSED A LOT OF DAMAGE AND CASUALTIES, WE MIGHT HAVE SEEN THE OUTBREAK OF A NEW WAR.

SUCH A NEW WAR TO HAPPEN IN SUCH A DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT SUCH AS THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, THE NEW WAR THAT WAS ALREADY GOING ON BETWEEN ISRAEL AND GAZA, HAVE THESE TAKEN SIGNIFICANT ATTENTION AWAY FROM DEFENDING UKRAINE?

OR CAN THE ALLIANCE DO BOTH THINGS AT THE SAME TIME?

>> I THINK WE DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY TO TAKE THE CRISES ONE BY ONE.

IF THEY HAPPEN AT THE SAME MOMENT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

THE PRINCIPLES ARE STILL THE SAME.

WE SHOULD CONDEMN THE AGGRESSION AND ALSO DO OUR BEST TO AVOID CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND BRING OTHER PARTIES TO THE TABLE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> PRESIDENT PETR PAVEL OF THE CZECH REPUBLIC , THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

>>> NOW TO ISRAEL AND GAZA.

MORE THAN SIX MONTHS INTO THE WAR AND NEGOTIATIONS FOR ANOTHER CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE RETURN APPEARED TO BE GOING NOWHERE.

QATAR WHO HAS BEEN MEDIATING SAYS IT WILL REVIEW ITS ROLE AFTER CRITICIZING OUTSIDE POLITICIANS IT SAYS ARE UNDERMINING.

MEANWHILE, MORE BLOODSHED AND GAZA WITH THE STRIKE ON A REFUGEE CAMP THIS WEEK.

AT LEAST 14 PEOPLE WERE KILLED INCLUDING A CHILDREN.

CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND HAS THIS REPORT.

A WARNING IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO SEE .

>> Reporter: A MOMENT FROZEN IN TIME .

THE BODIES HAVE AT LEAST FOUR CHILDREN SPLAYED AROUND THE FOOSBALL TABLE .

LAUGHTER AND SHRIEKS OF JOY SILENCED IN AN INSTANT.

BLOOD NOW MARKING WHERE THEY STOOD ONLY MINUTES EARLIER .

MY BELOVED, A COUSIN SCREAMS FROM BEHIND THE CAMERA.

A 10-YEAR-OLD IS ONE OF THOSE CHILDREN.

HER BRIGHT PINK PANTS UNMISTAKABLE IN THE ARMS OF THE MAN CARRYING HER AWAY .

AT THE HOSPITAL THOSE WHO CAN STILL BE SAVED ARRIVE ALONGSIDE THOSE WHO CANNOT .

AMID THE CHAOS, THE PINK PANTS DANGLING AS A DOCTOR CONFIRMS WHAT IS TRAGICALLY OBVIOUS .

SHE IS NOT ALONE.

SHE IS ONE OF EIGHT CHILDREN WHO DIED ON THAT CROWDED STREET .

THE HOSPITAL SAYS THEY WERE KILLED IN AN ISRAELI AIRSTRIKE.

BY PUBLICATION TIME THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID ONLY THAT THE INCIDENT IS UNDER REVIEW.

ONE AFTER ANOTHER THE SMALL BODIES ARRIVE AT THE HOSPITAL MORGUE AND INTO THE ARMS OF GRIEVING PARENTS .

HIS EYES SWOLLEN AND RED, THE FATHER OF A NINE-YEAR-OLD RECOUNTS HIS DAUGHTER'S LAST MOMENT PLAYING FOOSBALL WITH HER FRIENDS.

THIS IS MY ELDEST DAUGHTER, HE SAYS.

A DRONE STRIKE HIT THEM WHILE THEY WERE PLAYING.

THEY ARE ALL CHILDREN.

HOURS EARLIER THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE CHILDREN PLAYING ALONGSIDE THE OTHERS WHEN HE WAS SUDDENLY KILLED IN A WAR HE DID NOT CHOOSE.

'S MOTHER STILL CLINGING TO HER SON.

NEITHER DOES THIS BOY WHO CANNOT BELIEVE HIS BROTHER IS DEAD HE IS STILL ALIVE, HE CRIES .

DON'T LEAVE HIM HERE.

AMID THE OUTPOURINGS OF GRIEF THERE ARE THE BLOODSTAINED PINK PANTS IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS DEAR GOD, WHAT DID DALE DO .

ONE MAN CRIES WHAT DID THEY ALL DO >> MAD WITH GRIEF AS WE SEE IN THAT REPORT FROM JEREMY DIAMOND.

SUCH DARK IMAGES EMERGE EVERY DAY AND GAZA IT CAN BE DIFFICULT TO FIND THE LIGHT.

SOMETIMES MUSIC AND LATER WE WILL BRING YOU THE GROUNDBREAKING TERENCE BLANCHARD , THE GROUNDBREAKING COMPOSER TO THE MET.

FIRST, DAVID IS A PULITZER JOURNALIST.

HE EXPLAINS AMERICA'S VOLATILE RIVALRY WITH TWO GREAT POWERS, CHINA AND RUSSIA.

HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT >> THANK YOU.

DAVID WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO MEET WITH YOU.

>> OVER THE PAST WEEKEND, IRAN SENT A WHOLE FLEET OF DRONES AND MISSILES FOR THE ATTACK ON COMMANDERS.

WHAT IS BIDEN DOING TO STOP ESCALATION?

>> FIRST LET'S START WITH THE ATTACK THE IRANIANS RAN.

IT WAS NOTABLE FOR TWO THINGS.

ONE WAS, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION WE'VE SEEN A DIRECT ATTACK ON ISRAEL FROM THE IRANIAN TERRITORY.

THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG TABOOS THAT HAS EXISTED FOR A LONG TIME WHICH IS NO EXCHANGE DIRECTLY.

THE BIGGEST WORRY TO COME OUT OF IT, FORTUNATELY CASUALTIES WERE LOW.

THERE WAS TRAGICALLY ONE YOUNG GIRL WHO WAS INJURED BY SHRAPNEL, BADLY INJURED, BUT THERE WERE NO DEATHS FROM THIS.

THERE WAS THE DEATH OF A RESTRAINT.

THE RESTRAINT WAS THE ATTACK FROM ONE TERRITORY TO ANOTHER.

THE SECOND BIG LESSON THAT CAME OUT OF IT WAS THE IRANIANS ARE LEARNING FROM THE UKRAINE WAR JUST AS WE ARE.

THEY STARTED WITH A SWARM OF DRONES.

THEY THEN HAD CRUISE MISSILES AND BALLISTIC MISSILES THAT COULD MOVE MUCH FASTER.

I THINK THEY HAVE EMERGED FROM LAST WEEKEND WITH A FEW IMPORTANT LESSONS .

THEY NEED TO GO INVEST IN HYPERSONIC'S AND FASTER WEAPONS.

MY FEAR IS THAT THEY MAY THINK THROUGH THIS AND IF THEY CAN'T GET THROUGH THE SHIELD THEY MAY HAVE TO INVEST MORE IN NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND REV UP THE NUCLEAR PROJECT.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN EVIDENCE OF THAT.

>> IRAN AND CHINA HELPED US ON THE NUCLEAR DEAL.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING NOW AND CAN THEY TRY TO STOP THEM FROM GETTING A NUCLEAR WEAPON?

>> IT'S A CRITICAL POINT BECAUSE DURING THE NEGOTIATIONS RUSSIA AND CHINA SAT ON THE SAME SIDE AS THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AS THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN UNION PICK UP THE NEGOTIATIONS STARTED UP NOW AND I THINK THERE'S ALMOST NO CHANCE THEY WOULD, YOU WOULD NOT SEE THEM SITTING ON THAT SIDE.

THE RUSSIANS ARE GETTING THEIR DRONES FROM IRAN.

CHINA, RUSSIA, IRAN TOGETHER FORMING A KEY PART OF WHAT THEY CALL THE AXIS OF RESISTANCE.

THAT IS A BIG CHANGE IN JUST NINE YEARS.

IT IS PART OF THE DYNAMIC OF THESE NEW COLD WARS .

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS BIG CHANGE BECAUSE IT IS HUGE.

THE FACT THAT ALL THREE OF OUR MAJOR ADVERSARIES IN THE PAST 10 YEARS HAVE JOINED FORCES MEANING IRAN, RUSSIA, AND CHINA.

ANY REALIST WOULD HAVE SAID LET'S NOT LET THAT HAPPEN.

LET'S KEEP THEM FROM JOINING FORCES.

WERE WE MAKING A BIG MISTAKE, ESPECIALLY PUSHING CHINA INTO THE ARMS OF THIS AXIS OF RESISTANCE?

>> I ARGUE IN THE BOOK THAT WE MADE A FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE THAT GOES BACK 30 YEARS.

WE ARE MAKING A GOOD-FAITH EFFORT TO TRY TO INTEGRATE CHINA AND RUSSIA INTO THE WESTERN ECONOMY.

I ARGUE THAT WE SPENT 30 YEARS DELUDING OURSELVES.

SOME WITH BAD INTELLIGENCE.

SOME WITH JUST WISHFUL THINKING.

BELIEVING AT THE END OF THE DAY CHINA WOULD NOT RISK ITS ECONOMIC FUTURE AND EXPORT MARKET OF THE UNITED STATES.

RUSSIA WOULD NOT RISK THE REVENUES IT NEEDED FROM OIL AND GAS TO PURSUE TERRITORIAL GAINS OR IN ORDER TO CRACK DOWN IN WAYS THEY KNEW WHAT SEPARATE THEM FROM THE WEST.

WE FUNDAMENTALLY GOT THAT WRONG FOR VERY DIFFERENT REASONS.

WE WERE NOT LISTENING TO PUTIN WHEN HE SAID IN MUNICH IN 2007 THAT THERE WERE PARTS OF THE OLD RUSSIAN EMPIRE THAT NEEDED TO BE RESTORED.

WE DID NOT REACT FAST ENOUGH WHEN HE ANNEXED CRIMEA AND PART OF UKRAINE.

THEN CHANCELLOR MERKEL SIGNED THE NORD STREAM 2 DEAL THE NEXT YEAR WHICH GAVE A NEW FORM OF REVENUE TO THE RUSSIANS FOR GAS EXPORTS.

SO WHAT WAS VLADIMIR PUTIN SUPPOSED TO CONCLUDE OTHER THAN WE WOULD SCREAM A LOT ABOUT UKRAINE IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE ENTIRE COUNTRY BUT WE WOULD NOT DO MUCH.

IN CHINA WE MADE PARALLEL MISTAKES.

TO BE PUSH THEM TOGETHER?

I'M NOT SURE WE DID BUT IT IS CLEAR THAT TODAY THEY ARE DOING WHAT NIXON AND KISSINGER WERE TRYING TO PREVENT IN THE MID- 70s.

>> IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES THIS WEEK YOU HAVE UKRAINE AID, ISRAEL, TAIWAN, EVERYTHING BUNDLED UP IN A MESS.

HOW IS BIDEN TRYING TO GET THIS RESOLVED WITH THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES?

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK COULD AND SHOULD HAPPEN?

>> THE INITIAL THEORY OF HOW THEY WERE GOING TO GET AID FOR ISRAEL AND UKRAINE AND FOR TAIWAN AND GET SOME MONEY FOR THE BORDER WAS PUT IT ALL IN ONE BILL ON THE THEORY THAT THERE WOULD BE PARTS OF IT THAT EVERYBODY WOULD HATE, BUT THAT THEY WOULD ALL VOTE FOR IT TO GET WHAT THEY WANTED.

NOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING THE SPEAKER DEAL IS TRY TO CUT THOSE APART AND TRY TO PUT TOGETHER COALITIONS ON EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE WHICH IS INTERESTING .

IT MAY WORK BUT IT REQUIRES HIM TO GET EVERYTHING RIGHT OR YOU ARE GOING TO GET ISRAEL AID AND NO UKRAINE AID OR UKRAINE AID AND NO TAIWAN OR WHATEVER IT WILL BE .

TAIWAN IS PROBABLY THE EASIEST OF THESE THREE.

ON THE LEFT, THE PRESIDENT HAS TO WORRY ABOUT PROGRESSIVES WHO WANT RESTRICTIONS ON AID TO ISRAEL ALTHOUGH I THINK YOU CAN MAKE THAT REASONABLE CASE.

WE PUT RESTRICTIONS ON ALL KINDS OF AID INCLUDING TELLING THE UKRAINIANS THAT THEY CANNOT FIRE U.S. ARMS INTO RUSSIA , FOR EXAMPLE.

IT WOULDN'T BE THAT BIG OF A STRETCH TO SAY YOU CANNOT USE AMERICAN 2000 POUND BOMBS IN A DENSE URBAN AREA LIKE GAZA .

THE HARDEST PIECE OF THIS MAY WELL BE UKRAINE .

WE HAVE A GROUP OF REPUBLICANS WHO BASICALLY WANT TO SEND NO AID AT ALL.

THERE YOU ARE IN A PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCE ABOUT WHAT MESSAGE THAT WAS SENT TO THE WORLD IF THE U.S. AFTER DECLARING TO THE UKRAINIANS WE ARE WITH YOU FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES, SUDDENLY CHANGES THE MESSAGE TO, WE WERE WITH YOU FOR TWO YEARS BUT WE HAVE RUN OUT OF MONEY.

>> READING ABOUT THE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS .

IT IS SOMETHING YOU'VE BEEN REPORTING ON FOR A LONG TIME.

I WILL READ SOMETHING YOU WROTE ABOUT THE ONLINE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN JUST RECENTLY.

RUSSIAN OPERATIVES ARE LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOR WHAT COULD BE A STRONG PUSH TO SUPPORT CANDIDATES WHO OPPOSE AIDING UKRAINE OR WHO CALL FOR PULLING THE UNITED STATES BACK FROM NATO.

HAS THIS EFFORT BY RUSSIA IMPACTED THE POLITICS IN CONGRESS THIS WEEK?

>> IT IS REALLY HARD TO TELL BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS ARE SO MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED ABOUT THIS THAN THEY WERE IN 2016.

SO WHAT ARE THEY DOING NOW?

THEY ARE SIMPLY GRINDING THINGS THAT AMERICANS THEMSELVES TURN OUT AND AMPLIFYING THOSE .

IN THE HOPE THAT BY BEING MORE SUBTLE ABOUT IT ALL THEY ARE DOING IS AMPLIFIED IN THE WORDS OF PEOPLE WITH FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT.

IT'S MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED AND HARDER TO CATCH KIND OF TECHNIQUE.

WHAT I FOUND REALLY INTERESTING AS THEY WERE WORKING ON THE BOOK AND HAVING DONE A PREVIOUS BOOK ON CYBER IS THAT THE CHINESE WHO HAD BASICALLY DONE A LOT OF HACKING BUT NEVER INFORMATION OPERATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES REPLICATE WHAT THEY WERE LEARNING FROM THE RUSSIANS.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE THE COMBINED EFFECT OF RUSSIAN AND CHINESE DISINFORMATION, MISINFORMATION, OR JUST AMPLIFICATION CAN BE.

>> YOUR PREVIOUS BOOK ON CYBER WARFARE MADE IT FEEL LIKE IN THE 21st CENTURY THAT'S THE WAY WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT WARS.

WHAT IS STUNNING TO ME IS THE UKRAINE WAR IS FOUGHT THE WAY IT WAS 100 YEARS AGO .

IT IS A TRENCH WARFARE.

WHY HAVEN'T THERE BEEN MORE CYBERATTACKS?

>> THERE HAVE BEEN BUT THEY HAVE BEEN OF A NATURE THAT IS A LITTLE BIT HARDER TO SEE.

WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING THE WAR IN UKRAINE, WHAT YOU SEE IS THE MISSILE THAT GOES FOR THE POWER PLANT.

THE PREVIOUS BOOK, THE PERFECT WEAPON, MADE THE ARGUMENT THAT CYBER WAS A TERRIFIC SURE TO TO ATTRIBUTE AND HARD TO SEE AND A WAY OF TAKING SOMETHING OUT OF THE COUNTRY WITHOUT GOING TO FULL-SCALE WAR.

THIS HAS BEEN THE FIRST TIME THAT WE HAVE SEEN A FULL-SCALE WAR BETWEEN TWO VERY CYBER SAVVY COUNTRIES.

RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT CYBER CAPABILITY BOTH ON OFFENSE AND DEFENSE.

OF COURSE, THE RUSSIANS AS I DESCRIBE IN THE PERFECT WEAPON WHICH WAS FIVE YEARS AGO, THEY USED UKRAINE AS A TESTING GROUND FOR CYBER.

THEY DID IT AGAIN.

IN THE OPENING OF THE BOOK YOU SEE WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS SEEING .

WHAT MICROSOFT IS SEEING AND THEY SET UP A FLARE SAYING, CYBERATTACKS HAD BEGUN ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND IT IS A WARNING THAT THE WAR IS ABOUT TO BEGIN.

GENERAL MILLEY , IN HIS COLORFUL WAY, I WILL CLEAN THIS UP BECAUSE HE SPEAKS ARMY.

HE SAID WE THOUGHT AT FIRST THIS WOULD BE A CYBER WAR.

THAN WE THOUGHT IT WAS A TANK WAR.

THEN WE DISCOVER IT IS A LINCOLN WORLD WAR I TRENCH WARFARE.

THE ANSWER IS IT IS ALL THREE.

IT'S 1914, IT IS 1941, AND IT IS 2022 TO 24.

>> THE BIG NEWS THIS WEEK IS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS LOOKING TO PUT HUGE TARIFFS ON CHINESE STEEL .

HOW DOES THAT FIT IN ?

THAT SEEMS TO PUSH CHINA EVEN FURTHER TOWARD THE RUSSIAN-IRAN AXIS.

WHY ARE WE IN THIS CONFRONTATION WITH CHINA RIGHT NOW?

>> I AM NOT SURE THAT THE STEEL PART OF THIS FITS HIS OWN STRATEGY.

WHAT HE KEEPS SAYING IS, I DON'T WANT A COLD WAR WITH CHINA.

HIS FIRST YEAR IN OFFICE .

HE HAS NEVER LIFTED A SINGLE TARIFF THAT TRUMP PUT ON.

HE HAS IMPOSED SOME EXPORT CONTROLS ON CHINA THAT ARE PREVENTING CHINA FROM GETTING THE MOST SOPHISTICATED CHIPS , PARTICULARLY CHIPS THAT WOULD HELP WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

THAT MAKES SENSE TO CREATE A BIT OF THE TIME AND GAP FOR THE U.S. TO CATCH UP.

THE STEEL TARIFFS WHICH HE IS DESCRIBING SEEM TO ME TO BE MORE CLASSIC PROTECTIONISM IN AN ELECTION YEAR GAMBIT.

YOU ARE SEEING THAT EVEN WITH NON-ADVERSARIES .

THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE IT CLEAR HE DOES NOT WANT A JAPANESE FIRM TO INVEST IN U.S. STEEL.

THERE IS NO CLOSER ALLY WE HAVE IN THE WORLD JEN --THAN JAPAN.

THEIR PRIME MINISTER WAS JUST GIVEN A STEAK DINNER THE OTHER DAY.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN POLITICS INTERFERES WITH THE GOOD JUDGMENT OF WHAT MAKES SENSE AND WHAT DOES NOT.

>> WITH THIS IS ANNOUNCEMENT OF POTENTIAL NEW TARIFFS ON STEEL FROM CHINA IT FOLLOWS THE THEME OF YOUR BOOK THAT SOMEHOW OR ANOTHER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS CONTINUING A LOT OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION POLICIES WHEN IT COMES TO CHINA.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> THEY HAVE CERTAINLY CONTINUED A NUMBER OF THE STEPS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK .

AS I THE SANCTIONS ARE THE MOST OBVIOUS AMONG THEM.

I THINK THEY HAVE WRAPPED IT INTO A MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED AND WELL DEVELOPED INDO PACIFIC STRATEGY IN WHICH THEY HAVE BROUGHT AUSTRALIA INTO THE FOLD WITH THE DEAL THAT WILL ESSENTIALLY ALLOW THE AUSTRALIANS TO PRODUCE AMERICAN AND BRITISH DESIGNED NUCLEAR SUBMARINES.

ONE IN WHICH THEY ARE BRINGING ALLIES TOGETHER THAT HAVE NOT WORKED TOGETHER BEFORE.

JAPAN, SOUTH KOREA, THE PHILIPPINES.

IN WASHINGTON LAST WEEK WE SAW THE FIRST MEETING BETWEEN THE PHILIPPINE LEADER AND THE JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER WITH THE AMERICANS GUIDING IT ALONG THE WAY.

THIS IS AN EFFORT TO TRY TO CREATE CLOSER TO CHINA'S SHORES A GROUPING THAT IS NOT QUITE NATO, BUT IS A MADE FOR PURPOSE ALLIANCE TO SHOW A COMMON FRONT AGAINST CHINESE EXPANSIONISM.

I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE IN A WAY THAT THE TRUMP POLICY NEVER DID.

YOU REMEMBER TRUMP WOULD CUT ANY DEAL WITH CHINA.

HE ONCE TOLD THE CHINESE PRESIDENT I'M NOT GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT WHAT YOU DO IN HONG KONG IF IT LOOKS LIKE WE CAN GET A TRADE DEAL.

YOU ARE NOT HEARING THAT FROM JOE BIDEN.

BUT A LOT OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT HE USED INCLUDING TARIFFS YOU ARE NOT SEEING .

>> THIS BOOK SHOWS THE REAL COMPLEXITIES THAT WE FACE ESPECIALLY WITH THREE ADVERSARIES ALIGNED AGAINST THE U.S.

BEING AGAINST RUSSIA, CHINA, AND IRAN.

HOW WOULD YOU BREAK OUT OF THIS?

>> THE FIRST LESSON IN THE BOOK AND ITS COMPLEXITY IS, WE ARE NOT IN YOUR OLD COLD WAR.

IT WAS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND SOVIET UNION AND WAS PRIMARILY A NUCLEAR CONTEST.

THIS INVOLVES TWO MAJOR ADVERSARIES.

SOME MINOR ONES ARE LESS CAPABLE ONCE.

A NUMBER OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE SITTING ON THE SIDELINES .

THAT IS INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT TO DO .

THE OTHER DAY THERE WAS A FASCINATING INVESTMENT THAT MICROSOFT MADE WITH A COMPANY CALLED P 42 IN THE UNITED EMIRATES.

WHILE THIS LOOKS LIKE AN EFFORT TO INVEST IN AI IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHAT IT REALLY WAS WAS AN EFFORT TO BOX THE CHINESE OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

THAT IS THE NEW TERRITORY.

WHETHER THERE WOULD BE A DOMINO THEORY OF IDEOLOGIES.

THE QUESTION IS WHO WILL CONTROL THE KEY TECHNOLOGIES OF THE COMING DECADES.

THE ONLY WAY I KNOW TO DO THAT IS TO BE BOTH AGGRESSIVE AND THOUGHTFUL ABOUT HOW THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HELPS PRIVATE ENTERPRISE TO DO THIS.

THIS MICROSOFT DEAL WAS BASICALLY CONCEIVED OF BY THE ADMINISTRATION ALTHOUGH THE U.S. IS NOT FORMALLY A PARTY TO IT.

YOU WILL NEED TO SEE A LOT MORE OF THAT.

I KNOW THERE'S AN AVERSION TO INDUSTRIAL POLICY, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE WORLD RIGHT NOW IS A SERIES OF VACUUMS THAT ONE GREAT TOWER OR ANOTHER IS GOING TO FILL.

IF YOU DECIDE WE DON'T WANT THE U.S. INVOLVED IN THIS.

WE JUST WANT TO BUILD WALLS AND PULLBACK, WHAT YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY SAYING IS I DON'T CARE WHO FILLS THOSE VACUUMS.

MY GUESS IS THAT IS PROBABLY NOT A POLICY THAT OVER TIME WILL WORK OUT WELL.

>> DAVID SANGER, AS ALWAYS THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NEXT TO THE BREAKING GROUND IN THE WORLD OF OPERA.

WHEN IT FIRST PREMIERED AT NEW YORK'S MET IN 2021 IT SET A NEW RECORD.

IT WAS THE FIRST WORK BY A BLACK COMPOSER TO BE PERFORMED AT THE LEGENDARY OPERA HOUSE AND IT'S 138 YEAR HISTORY.

GRAMMY AWARD-WINNING MUSICIAN TERENCE BLANCHARD ADOPTED THE MEMOIR OF A NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST.

IT IS A PERSONAL AND OFTEN HEART-WRENCHING STORY.

>> NOW IT IS BACK AT THE MET.

I SAT DOWN WITH TERENCE BLANCHARD TO DISCUSS WHY HE WANTS TO BE A TURNKEY, NOT A TOKEN.

>> TERENCE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU PARTICULARLY IN THE MIDST OF THIS RE-PERFORMANCE OF THE OPERA.

WHAT INSPIRED YOU TO TAKE THIS STORY AND MAKE IT INTO AN OPERA ?

>> THE FIRST THING THAT GOT ME WAS THE WHOLE SENSE OF BEING OTHER.

A KID BUT I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE DIFFERENT.

TO SEE WHAT HE WENT THROUGH I THINK WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

I FEEL LIKE THE PROJECT ITSELF CAN HELP A LOT OF PEOPLE .

I THINK IT ALREADY HAS .

WHEN WE DID IT AT FIRST A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME TO SEE IT AND SAW WHAT HE WENT THROUGH THEY REALLY GOT INSPIRED ABOUT HOW STRONG HIS PERSEVERANCE IS.

>> OBVIOUSLY, CHARLES IS THE NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST TO GREW UP IN THE SOUTH AND HAD A VERY DIFFICULT AND AS YOU SAY VIOLENT CHILDHOOD INCLUDING SEXUAL ABUSE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WRITING BECAUSE WE HAVE SOME TIPS.

HERE IS ONE PIECE .

CHARLES WHAT I WANTED TO SAY.

>> TELL US WHAT IT IS ABOUT AND HOW YOU WENT AROUND WRITING IT.

>> CHARLES, WHAT I WANTED TO SAY IS ONE OF THE CULMINATING SCENES.

HE'S GONE THROUGH EVERYTHING IN HIS LIFE.

HE'S BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO HE IS AND FIND HIS WAY THROUGH LIFE AND STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THAT MAYBE HE'S ATTRACTED TO MEN BUT DATING WOMEN.

THIS SCENE IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST EMOTIONAL SCENES FOR ME BECAUSE HE IS REALLY BECOMING VULNERABLE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND.

AT THE SAME TIME SHE HAS BEEN DATING SOMEONE ELSE AND STARTING TO REALLY EXPLAIN IT TO HIM.

HE THINKS SHE IS LEAVING HIM BECAUSE HE TOLD HER ABOUT THE ABUSE BUT NOW SHE HAS BEEN DATING SOMEONE THE ENTIRE TIME.

IT IS A HEARTBREAK OF THE SCENE FOR ME.

EVERY TIME I SEE THE WAY THEY ACT AS PERFORM IT IS AMAZING.

THERE'S ONE PORTION THAT I THINK REALLY GETS ME.

WHERE HE GRABS HER AND SAYS, PLEASE DON'T LEAVE ME.

YOU'RE THE ONLY THING THAT HAS BEEN KEEPING ME UP DAY.

THAT TO ME IS A VERY VULNERABLE AND POWERFUL MOMENT.

>> YOU SUGGEST EARLIER YOU BELIEVE A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN LEARN AND BE HELPED BY THIS.

HOW DO YOU MEAN AND WHAT TO HAVE YOU NOTICED IN THE AUDIENCE FOR THIS OPERA?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I EXPERIENCED WITH CHARLES WHEN WE DID AT THE FIRST TIME IN ST. LOUIS, I DID NOT LET HIM COME TO REHEARSALS.

AT THE TIME I THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT IDEA BUT WHEN WE GOT TO THE PREMIER I THOUGHT WHAT WAS I THINKING.

I WALKED OVER TO HIM AFTERWARDS AND HE ASKED, ARE YOU OKAY.

HE SAID YES.

IT MADE ME REALIZE I'M NOT THAT PERSON ANYMORE.

HE WROTE A COLUMN OF ABOUT IT AND THAT SPARKED THE DEBATE.

STANDING AT THE LOBBY TALKING TO SOME PEOPLE AND A GUY WOKE UP --WALKED UP TO ME IN TEARS AND SAID, THANK YOU.

I'M A SURVIVOR.

HE WALKED AWAY.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE DO THIS.

I KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE SUFFERING AND DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES WHEN IT COMES TO FAMILY MEMBERS ESPECIALLY BUT THE STORY WILL HOPEFULLY HELP PEOPLE DEAL WITH THOSE ISSUES.

>> TERRENCE, YOU'RE AN INCREDIBLY ACCOMPLISHED MUSICIAN, PERFORMER, PRODUCER, ET CETERA.

BUT IT IS THE FIRST TIME IN 138 YEARS OF THE MET HISTORY THAT A BLACK COMPOSER IS BRINGING A PIECE TO THE STAGE.

HOW DO YOU REFLECT ON THAT?

>> IT HAS BEEN AN AMAZING THING TO EXPERIENCE.

OBVIOUSLY IT IS A HUGE HONOR.

I DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THAT, BUT THE THING I'VE BEEN SAYING IS THEY NEED TO PUT AN ASTERISK BY MY NAME BECAUSE I MAY BE THE FIRST BUT I'M NOT THE FIRST QUALIFIER.

>> I SAW A LEDGER HERE .

THIS NAME WAS IN THE LEDGER THREE TIMES WHERE HE WAS REJECTED.

HE IS ONE OF THE GREATEST AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMPOSERS WHO CREATED A LOT OF GREAT WORKS.

HE WROTE AN OPERA CALLED HIGHWAY ONE WHICH I HAD HEARD PRIOR TO COMING HERE FROM REHEARSALS.

I HEARD IT AT ST. LOUIS TO.

WHEN I WAS LISTENING TO IT, IT WAS AMAZING.

IT IS CURRENT .

IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE 30s.

WHEN I LOOKED AT THE RESPONSE TO ALL OF THE COMMENTS, IT BROKE MY HEART BECAUSE IT SAID DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT TAKES TO WRITE REAL OPERA.

HE WAS CREATING A WHOLE NEW LANGUAGE INSIDE THE OPERATIC WORLD AND PEOPLE DID NOT GET IT.

FOR ME, I TAKE IT AS A HUGE HONOR TO BE THE FIRST, BUT I AM STANDING ON THEIR SHOULDERS.

>> YOU MENTIONED SCOTT JOPLIN.

>> YEAH.

SO MANY PEOPLE.

AM GLAD TO SEE ANTHONY DAVIS GOT A CHANCE HERE BECAUSE HE HAD WRITTEN IT IN THE 80s .

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE AUDIENCES.

I HAVE READ THEY ARE MUCH MORE BLACK AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN THAN USUALLY FILLS THIS HALLOWED SPACE .

>> THAT HAS BEEN THE BEAUTIFUL THING ABOUT HAVING THE PRODUCTION HERE.

WE'VE HAD PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE AUDIENCES THE MET HAS EVER SEEN.

THE BEAUTIFUL THING IS THEY ARE ONLY COMING THROUGH FIRE BUT THEY ARE SEEING OTHER PRODUCTIONS.

IT HAS BEEN SPARKING AN INTEREST.

THE THING THAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING IS THAT YOU SHOULD START TO REALIZE THERE IS A HUGE DEMOGRAPHIC OF PEOPLE THAT'S BEEN OVERLOOKED FOR GENERATIONS.

THEY HAVE BEEN SHOWING UP IN LARGE NUMBERS.

>> MOST PEOPLE, FRANKLY, DO NOT THINK OF BLACK OPERAS.

IT IS USUALLY THE OLD WHITE GUYS IN EUROPE WHO ARE THE CANON AND HAVE REMAINED SO FOR SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST SURPRISED.

IT IS DIFFERENT OPERA .

>> THE THING IS IT'S NOT JUST COMPOSERS BUT PERFORMERS AS WELL.

THIS JOURNALIST ASKED ME DO YOU THINK YOUR OPERA WILL INSPIRE YOUNG PEOPLE TO SING OPERA ?

PEOPLE OF COLOR HAVE BEEN SINGING OPERA FOR GENERATIONS.

A LOT OF IT IS THINGS WE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW, GAINING COVERAGE, EDUCATING THE PUBLIC TO WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON.

THAT'S WHY I APPRECIATE YOU HAVING ME ON THE SHOW BECAUSE IT MEANS A LOT NOT ONLY TO ME BUT IN GENERAL TO THE PEOPLE THAT ARE INVOLVED BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER COMPOSERS WHO HAVE DONE STUFF BUT NOBODY HAS EVER HEARD THEIR WORK.

ONE OF THE PRINCIPALS IN THE FIRST PRODUCTION OF FIRE, WILL LIEBERMAN HAS WRITTEN OPERA.

HE'S TRYING TO GAIN TRACTION WITH HIS WORK.

THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT HAVE STORIES TO TELL.

THE THING THAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING AND I REALLY MEAN THIS, I DO NOT WANT TO BE A TOKEN.

THERE NEEDS TO BE WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF OTHER ETHNIC BACKGROUNDS TELLING STORIES BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE PUBLIC, I REALLY FEEL, WANTS TO SEE.

>> YOU'VE SAID FIRE SEVERAL TIMES.

OBVIOUSLY THAT IS A SHORTENING OF THE NAME.

TELL US ABOUT THE MEANING OF THE TITLE.

>> IT IS THE WHOLE IDEA BEHIND THIS BURNING ANXIETY TO REALLY SCREAM ABOUT WHO YOU REALLY ARE .

YOU TRY TO KEEP THAT DOWN BECAUSE SOCIETY TELLS YOU YOU ARE DIFFERENT .

ONE OF THE THINGS CHARLES SAID IN PASSING TO CASEY LEMMONS WHO IS THE WOMAN THAT WROTE THE LIBRETTO .

HE SAID IT IS PECULIAR GRACE.

IT WAS A THROWAWAY LINE BUT CASEY HEARD IT AND SAID THAT IS REALLY POWERFUL.

THAT BECAME ONE OF THE MAIN THEMES OF THE OPERA.

YOU WILL HEAR IT MAYBE THREE OR FOUR TIMES.

>> YOU ARE A TRUMPETER.

YOU HAVE WORKED ON SCORES FOR FILMS, NOTABLY A LOT OF SPIKE THAT AND WHAT OF THAT WORLD DO YOU BRING TO THIS WORLD?

>> WHAT I BRING TO THIS WORLD IS MY SENSE OF DRAMA FROM THE FILM WORLD AND WRITING FOR ORCHESTRA.

THAT IS NOT A HUGE ISSUE FOR ME.

I'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

WHAT'S BEEN CHALLENGING IS WRITING FOR BOYS BECAUSE ALL OF THE VOICES ARE DIFFERENT.

ALL OF THE REGISTERS ARE DIFFERENT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE LABELED THE SAME, SOPRANO, TENOR, WHATEVER .

AND TRYING TO FIND THE BEST RANGES FOR THEM HAS BEEN A CHALLENGE.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT DOING OPERA VERSUS FILM.

WHEN I GET THE FILM IT IS DONE AND CUT TOGETHER AND EVERYTHING.

HERE IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT IS IN MY MIND .

HOW I WANT A CERTAIN SCENE TO BE PASTE.

IT IS CONSTANT MUSIC.

I'VE BEEN DESCRIBING THIS THING WE CALL MUSICAL AIR WHEN YOU NEED SILENCE AND SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO MOVE AROUND .

>> IT CHANGES EVERY NIGHT.

THAT IS THE THING THAT I LOVE.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THESE AFRICAN-AMERICAN SINGERS.

A LOT OF THEM GREW UP IN THE CHURCH AND WHEN IT COMES TIMES TO SING PUCCINI OR THOSE THINGS THEY HAVE TO TURN IT OFF .

WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING IN MY PRODUCTION IS YOU BELONG TO THAT CULTURE BECAUSE IT IS A CURRENT STORY.

>> DO YOU BRING GOSPEL, SOUL, ALL OF THE STUFF THAT IS PART OF YOUR HERITAGE INTO THIS?

>> IT IS A WHOLE MIX.

THERE IS A CHURCH SEEN HERE WITH THE GUYS THAT THEY HAVE A LOT OF FUN WITH IT.

YOU CAN SEE AT THE COURSE THEY GO RIGHT BACK TO CHURCH.

IT IS LIKE SUNDAY MORNING.

>> IT MUST BE A FOOTSTOMPING FAVORITE.

>> THE AUDIENCE LOVES IT.

THE CHORUS HAS SO MUCH FUN WITH IT.

I THINK THEY WANT TO EXTEND THE SCENE.

>> IT'S NOT USUAL IN A METROPOLITAN OPERA HOUSE , THIS PARTICIPATION IN THE AUDIENCE.

>> IT IS NOT A USUAL THING.

ALSO WE HAVE A STEP SEQUENCE THAT ALWAYS GETS A STANDING OVATION.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THAT IS THE REASON WHY I THINK THAT KIDS THAT RESOUNDING REACTION IS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SEEING THE CULTURE ON THE STAGE AT THE METROPOLITAN OPERA HOUSE .

I THINK FOR SOME PEOPLE WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CULTURE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT INSPIRATION AND WHAT YOU HEARD.

YOUR FATHER WAS FOND OF OPERA .

DIDN'T HE USED TO SING IT AROUND THE HOUSE?

>> MY FATHER LEFT THE OPERA.

HE WAS AN AMATEUR BARITONE.

THERE WAS A MAN THAT TAUGHT MY DAD AND SOME OTHER AFRICAN- AMERICAN MALES OPERA .

THEY WOULD ALWAYS REHEARSE AT MR. BLANCHET'S HOUSE ON WEDNESDAY NIGHTS.

I THOUGHT THOSE WERE SOME OF THE MOST UNUSUAL DUDES ON THE PLANET.

MY FATHER WOULD BE AT HOME.

YOU KNOW THOSE RECORDS YOU WERE NEVER ALLOWED TO TOUCH, HE WOULD PULL THOSE OUT AND WHEN RECORDS THERE WOULD BE DOORS SLAMMING BECAUSE THERE HE GOES.

>> DID YOU BUST INTO OPERA AT HOME AT A YOUNG AGE?

>> NO.

>> DO YOU SING?

>> I ALWAYS TELL THE STORY THEY PUT ME IN THE CHOIR FOR ONE SUNDAY AT CHURCH.

THEY HEARD ME SING AND SAID DON'T YOU PLAY THE TRUMPET.

>> DID YOUR PARENTS THINK THAT BEING A MUSICIAN WAS A GAINFUL WAY TO BE EMPLOYED?

DID THEY WANT THAT FOR THEIR CHILD?

>> NO.

I GREW UP IN A HOUSEHOLD FULL OF EDUCATORS.

MY AUNT TAUGHT HIGH SCHOOL.

MY OTHER COUSINS AND STUFF IN OTHER PARTS OF LOUISIANA WERE ALL EDUCATORS.

FOR ME THE THING I KEPT HEARING WHICH I HATED WAS YOU NEED SOMETHING TO FALL BACK ON.

FOR ME I ALWAYS LOOKED AT THAT AS ADMITTING FAILURE.

I NEVER WANTED TO THINK ABOUT THAT .

I TOOK A CHANCE AND I WILL NEVER FORGET.

I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH MY DAD.

WE HAD AN ARGUMENT ABOUT SOMETHING AND HE CALLED ME AND SAID I'M PROUD OF YOU.

I SAID WHAT YOU MEAN AND HE SAID IF YOU WOULD HAVE LISTENED TO ME YOU WOULD HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THIS CAREER.

>> IS THERE ANOTHER PLAN FOR ELSEWHERE?

>> YES.

IT'S GETTING READY TO GO TO DC AND THEN SAN FRANCISCO.

IT STARTED IN ST. LOUIS, BUT IT HAS BEEN AN AMAZING THING TO WITNESS.

THE THING THAT I LOVE IS WITH EACH PRODUCTION THE VOCALISTS GET DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO THE CHARACTERS.

>> YOU DO A LOT OF GENRE CROSSING.

OF COURSE, THE BIG TOPIC OF MUSICAL GENRE CROSSING CONVERSATION IS BEYONCAá.

>> RIGHT.

>> COWBOY CARTER.

SOME PEOPLE SAY, WHAT?

HOW CAN YOU?

IT IS REALLY POPULAR AND IS WONDERFUL.

>> BLACKBIRD SINGING IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT.

TAKE THESE BROKEN WINGS AND LEARN TO FLY.

ALL YOUR LIFE YOU WERE ONLY WAITING FOR THIS MOMENT TO ARRIVE >> COMMENTARY ON THAT AND MAYBE PEOPLE THINKING YOU NEED TO STAY IN YOUR LANE?

>> THE THING THAT ALWAYS AMAZES ME IS WHEN YOU TRY TO EXPLORE DIFFERENT THINGS PEOPLE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE THERE'S A NATURAL CURIOSITY ABOUT MUSIC IN GENERAL.

BEYONCAá HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY.

I DID A COMMERCIAL WITH HER YEARS AGO AND SHE SANG CARMEN AND DID A GREAT JOB.

I HAVE SEEN HER SHOWS WHEN SHE WOULD SING OPERATIC AREAS DOING HER SHOW.

SHE HAS ALWAYS HAD A NATURAL CURIOSITY FOR MUSIC IN GENERAL.

WHEN SOMEBODY TOLD ME SHE WAS DOING A COUNTRY ALBUM I'M LIKE, FIGURES.

IT MAKES SENSE.

LET'S SEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER THAT.

SHE MAY GO IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION AFTER THAT.

IT MAKES SENSE AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT IT.

THEY SHOULD BE PRAISING HER FOR HER MUSICAL PROWESS AND ACUMEN TO BE ABLE TO DO IT.

NOT ONLY DO IT BUT DO IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IS RESPECTFUL OF THE GENRE AND DO IT ON A HIGH LEVEL .

>> YOU ARE HERE AT AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TIME.

THERE IS SO MUCH POLITICAL DIVISION NOT JUST BETWEEN PARTIES BUT BETWEEN RACES .

WE TALK ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME.

OBVIOUSLY MUSIC HAS A HISTORY OF IN PART OF MOVEMENTS INCLUDING CIVIL RIGHTS ET CETERA.

DO YOU HAVE A THOUGHT ON THE IMPORTANCE OF MUSIC TODAY IN 2024 IN THE MIDST OF THIS REALLY DIFFICULT DIVISION IN >> MUSIC IS PROBABLY MORE IMPORTANT NOW THAN ANYTHING.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER WHEN CHAMPION FIRST PREMIERED HERE IT WAS THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENED AFTER THE PANDEMIC.

WE HAD JUST GONE THROUGH THE WHOLE GEORGE FLOYD SCENARIO.

PEOPLE WERE STILL -- THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THE GEORGE FLOYD THING FOR ME WAS SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO WERE WHITE FINALLY GOT A CHANCE TO SEE WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR GENERATIONS.

THEY NEVER UNDERSTOOD IT.

COMING HERE, THIS IS ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE CAN COME AND EXPERIENCE SOMETHING ON THE SAME PLANE.

IT HAPPENS TO BE AN ALL-BLACK CAST, BUT THE STORY CAN BE TOLD BY ANYBODY .

WHEN PEOPLE COME IN HERE I DON'T THINK PEOPLE REALIZE IT IS AN ALL-BLACK CAST.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO THEIR MIND.

WHAT COMES TO YOUR MIND IS THIS IS A COMING-OF-AGE STORY OF SOMEBODY THAT WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED BY A FAMILY MEMBER.

I SEE SO MANY PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WALKS OF LIFE RELATE TO THE STORY.

HOPEFULLY THEY CAN CARRY THAT TO THEIR DAILY LIVES.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I THINK MUSIC AND ART IS MORE IMPORTANT NOW THAN EVER.

>> GIVE ME SOME OF YOUR EXPERIENCES PLAYING AND HOW MUSIC HAS BEEN A UNITER .

>> ONE OF THE FUNNY ONES FOR ME IS WHEN MY FIRST OPERA WENT TO THE KENNEDY CENTER.

I CAME OUT ON THE STAGE TO TAKE MY BOW AND I SAW NEWT GINGRICH.

ANOTHER TIME I PLAYED AT THE AMERICAN EMBASSY IN RUSSIA.

THE AMBASSADOR TOLD ME AT THE TIME HE SAID, YOU HAVE PROBABLY DONE MORE FOR AMERICAN AND RUSSIAN RELATIONS THAN ANYBODY BECAUSE THERE WERE SOME OLD OLIGARCHS THAT CAME TO THE SHOW AND ENJOYED THE MUSIC.

THAT PART OF IT SPEAKS TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER.

THE POWER OF YOU SICK AND HOW IT CAN BREAK DOWN INHIBITIONS AND HOPEFULLY GET TO THE CORE OF SOME ISSUES.

DEEP DOWN I TEND TO BELIEVE, BACKGROUND.

I BELIEVE WE ARE MORE ALIKE THAN DIFFERENT.

>> TERENCE BLANCHARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT .

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/ THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FOR NOW.