Great to have you with us on this edition of Off the Record with the latest Democrati candidate for the U.S. Senate.

He is joining us.

He is Abdul El-Sayed.

Our lead story, the governor continues to play defense on that Oval Office visit.

And Mike Cox wants to be governor.

Round the OTR Table, Chuc Stokes, Lauren Gibbons and Rick Pluta.

Sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record production of Off the Record is made possible in par by bellwether public relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.comn And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to Studio C, Of the Record or another edition.

Mike Cox wants to be governor.

Were you surprised?

No.

It had been rumored for quite some time that he was going to throw his hat in the ring.

He just made it official.

And it's not unexpected.

I mean, he's he was close to that position when he was attorney general for this state.

He's always had it in his blood.

He's been out for a while, made some money, I presume, and now wants to jump back into the public life.

And his wife, of course, you know, was in a powerful position with the Michigan Republican Party.

So it's in the family blood.

Now he's what, the third Republican so far to jump into it.

So he's got competition.

It's going to be an interesting primary race and we're going to have a battle on both the Democratic and Republican side in the primary.

And of course, we can't forget there's an independent in there, right?

Yeah, whatever his name is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's it's certainly like I' like Chuck said, not a surprise.

He has been putting himself out there again.

You saw him testifying in Lansing a few weeks ago, criticizin some of the anti-Trump lawsuits that Attorney General Nessel has been a part of.

So he's he's been, you know getting back into the spotlight to some extent even before the announcement.

But, yeah, it remains to be seen, you know, ho well he does compared to people who have been in it throughout the Trump era.

You know, he's coming in from quite some time ago.

But, you know, he might have some play here.

As well and an opportunity to, you know, reinvent himself and, you know, his.

Everybody here knows that the dynamics in a crowded primary are different than one where it's kind of a one on one or there's, you know someone who's a field clearer, which we don't have in either of the of of the parties.

And so, you know, what's his lane and does that give him at least a pluralit of the Republican primary vote?

Well, he was a victim of the multiple candidates in before he finishing three in third and a fifth in another race in which he was not alone.

Well, you know, absolutely not.

I mean, if it had been one on one, Rick Snyder and Mike Cox his chances of winning might have gone up.

But it wasn't that way.

Wouldn't look at this guy is making a lot of money that U of M settlemen that he had allowed him to put $1,000,000 of his own money into the fund.

Why?

Why not just enjoy life, you know?

Well, that's that's going to be a good question for him because you oftentimes wonder, once you've gotten out of politics, you make a lot of money, you're doing well.

Why do you want to get back i with those barbs and headaches.

And run around all over the state.

Their lives you can't control.

But there's always surprises coming around the corner.

I think what's going to be interesting is how does he position himself to try to win the primary?

Because we know the primary is about MAGA with the Republican Party and Donald Trump and the endorsement and early indications from his press release was that he's embracing the types of things that President Trump likes.

So it looks like he's going to try to paint himself as a real conservative wing of the party.

Now, if that works, because it worked for Mike Rogers to get through the primary when he ran.

But then when you get to the general, you have to start repositioning yourself a little bit.

So you have to be careful.

And Mike has a public service gene, There's no question about that.

So, you know, more power to him to get in.

Yeah, certainly.

And to that, didn't his wif have a dustup with Donald Trump?

Yeah.

So that's something that he might have looked into the commercial.

There was a picture of his wife with Donald Trump.

Do you suppose that massages what happened?

Potentially, yeah.

And it has been a long time.

And so we've seen quite a bit with President Trump that he is willing to look past, you know, past dustups, even with Mike Rogers, for example.

I mean, Mike Roger has been a pretty harsh critic during the 2020 election cycle.

So there's always a possibility That said, everybody is going to be going after that lane.

That's the easiest lane to get through the primary you get.

I mean, you can have a history of of criticizin and battling with Donald Trump.

And as long as in the en you go and bend the knee, then, you know, then all is forgiven that, you know, you don't see the president, you know, turning around and brushing someone off, especially if he thinks that they might be a winner.

What difference does it mak if we have six cars in one lane?

That's a great question.

You know I mean, who's the breakout who who put the eliminating the income tax on the table and you know that, you know, everyone is looking for, you know, what's the breakout issue?

What's something that will separate me from the pack, especially when everybody is at least tryin to, you know, paint themselves into the MAGA lane.

The biggest hurdle that I think Mike Cox has to get over is reacquainting himself with a generation that doesn't know who he is.

In fact, I don't think he mentioned he was AG in the commercial .Did I miss that?, He never said I was a michigan attorne general.

He's a crime fighter.

Yeah, but.

Yeah, but so is Dick Tracy.

Okay.

I mean, know, I don't know where you're going with that, but neither did I.

Just this young generation who's probably saying Mike Who?

Mike Cox.

Who?

What did he do?

Where did he come from?

He hasn't been in the public eye from from an elected position in a long time.

Yes, he was in the public eye because of the lawsuits and stuff like that.

With the University of Michigan.

It's you know, primaries are decided by a much thinne swath of voters than generals.

And most of the candidates in a primary are largely unknown to the public.

That's part of the challenge is going out and presenting yourself.

And then hoping that there's not something in your history that's going to blow the doors off that after you're in.

He'll get to spend some of that money.

He's made it or somebody else's money.

All right.

Well, the governor went down to Detroit this week and was still playing catch up on what happened in the Oval Office, the infamous picture of her holding up the book in front of her face.

What what's the fallout from this, if any?

Is this a three day story or is this a Michael Dukakis riding in the tank with a helmet moment?

Crickets.

These are I mean, it's not it's not a three day story that that that that picture is going to live on in eternity and be part of her history, whether or not it's a significant part of her history going forward, I think is the question tha you're really trying to answer.

That's the on you want to answer.

Go for it.

All right.

Well, and you know, the answer is an absolute maybe that if there i something else Whitmer is caught in, I mean, a literal vise, where on the one hand, she was that woman from Michigan who, you know, battled Donald Trump.

And now she's tryin to, you know, take the position of being a little bit more forgiving and then, you know, when things happen, like the two weeks that you know, we've just had, it's, you know, what's that sweet spo in the middle where you can go up against the administration on tariffs without directly battling Donald Trum and suffering the consequences.

If I had come to this tabl in, say, October 2024 and said, hey, you know what, President Trump is going to get elected and Governor Gretchen Whitmer is going to hang out in the Oval Office with him, I would have been laughed out of this room.

Oh, yeah.

You know, and that is what happened.

That is where we are.

We're too sweet.. We would never have laughed you out.

And, you know, I appreciate that, but it would have been preposterous sounding at the time.

But now here we are.

You can see what she's trying to do, right?

She's trying to prevent the brunt of the tariffs from coming to Michigan.

She's trying to make headway in a state where she has to convince the Republican speaker of the House if she wants to get anything through both chambers of the legislature.

So she's trying to make these inroads.

That said, she lost control of the narrative when she was brought into this press conference.

Has to answer questions.

Trump is covering issues that she probably doesn't want to deal with.

Speaker Matt Hall is in the room too.

Matt Hall is in the in the room as well between them.

So, yeah, it is an odd pairing and certainly a lot of Democrats questions whether that was a good idea especially if she's considering further aspirations.

So I think the dust is still settling.

Like will it end up working?

Who knows?

The picture could have been worse.

She could have done this in front of the camera lens, which send a completely different message.

But, you know, she has a tough needle to thread here because she is trying not to provoke a confrontation with the sitting president.

Everybody knows where she stands on issues.

Everybody knows where Trump stands on the issues, but they have to work together.

She's the leader of this state He's the leader of the country.

And she's in the last term of being governor.

She wants to go out on a high.

There are key issues which you just numerated that she's up there fighting for.

She invited Speaker Hall to go to Washington to be a part of this.

You know I just recently interviewed him.

He waxed eloquently about their relationship.

So right now, Speaker Hall and the governor are getting along well.

They are both trying to carv that lane to get the things that they want, They say, for the people of Michigan and they found some areas that they can work together and that doesn't blow up at some point.

We'll see.

Right now is is is the key phrase to what you just said.

And she had a credible explanation for, you know, putting the blu folder up in front of her face, which was she was surprised she wasn't expecting TV.

She didn't think she wanted to be taken, didn't want my picture taken.

I mean, there was tension in the Oval Offic not wanting their picture taken.

But there was also the picture of her just standing against the wall looking like she wanted to somehow melt into it.

Or the vintage where she bumped the speaker.

She So, yeah, we we actually do have a good relationship.

I think her quote was we get along 70% of the time.

Mr. Hall might be doing the governor a disfavor by continuing to laud all of this stuff on her.

She doesn't need another Republican saying good stuff about her with her Democratic base.

Yes or no?

Do you think maybe he knows that?

Probably.

I'm not going to answer that question.

All right.

Let's let's talk abou the Supreme Court losing money by the Republicans in the House.

What's going on?

Well, they haven't lost it, you know at least not yet.

Symbolically.

But but the threat is out there that the Supreme Court made a decisio following a series of decisions that lifers, mandatory lifers, that, you know, the following U Supreme Court decision as well, mandatory lif without parole, automatic life without parole for younger defendants, 20 and younger is not constitutional.

So now they're entitled to resentencing hearings, and prosecutors have to make decisions about whether or not they're going to once again seek life without parole.

And this is, you know, a no win that, you know, it can't be ignored, that there are victims and survivors here who have to go through the whole process again.

And that's anguish.

And the families and the survivors and also, you know, that the inmates, the people who are serving have to prepare for this.

And that means that prosecutors and defense attorneys have to prepare for this.

So what do the house R's do?

The House R's said Supreme Court we're going to take that mone from you to to accomplish that, which means that, you know, I mean, they're trying to at least bend th direction of the Supreme Court based on a decision that they don't like.

Well I think it's pretty clear here that Republicans lack of success in getting their Republican nominee justices on the court is catching up to them.

This was not a close decision.

It was five two is certainly a pretty divided partizan decision, but there are a majority of Democrats on the Supreme Court are Democratic nominated justices.

Excuse me, but that's the reality of the situation.

So Republican are trying to wield what power they have, seeing if they can do that from the appropriations perspective.

Well, it makes a statement, but when it gets over to the Senate, assuming that it does, it's probably D.O.A.

Sure.

You know, ignored.

But it's a lethal political move that they're trying because, as you said, it's the only power that they have right now.

They are seriously outnumbere on the Michigan Supreme Court, but they're fighting back with the only tool that they have, and that is messing with the purse strings.

Speaking about fighting.

This gentleman wants to figh to get a seat in the US Senate.

Let's see why.

Dr. nice to have you back on off the record.

Always a privilege to be with you, Tim, and thank you for creating a space where we can have real conversations.

Well, let's see what we can do here.

All right.

So in your spot that you announced that you were running for the U.S. Senate, you talked about fighting the president and Elon Musk.

Your governor is trying to thread that needle that we're talked about.

Is she on the right course Well, look, I'll tell you this.

I think right now when you talk to folks, they watch as our Constitution is being bent in half by a presidential administration.

I think we do need folks who are going to fight back in DC.

I understand the governor's role is going to be different than what our senators role is going to be.

Her job is to look after the 43% of the federal budget that makes up 43% of the state budget that comes from the federal government.

And she's got priorities and she's going about it her way.

I'll tell you, for me, I think there are two parts to any political job.

There's the procedural part, the things that you can do simply because you hold that role.

But then there's also the leadership part.

And I think what we're not seeing specifically out of enough members of Congress or in the US Senate is the ability to leverage that that leadership part to step up and fight back against what Trump and Musk are doing to our government, what they're doing to our Constitution and what they're doing to our society.

So if you had been governor or governor today, would you appear in the Oval Office to get stuff for Michigan?

I, I have a feeling I probably wouldn't have been invited, but also just say that at the end of the day, I'm not governor.

I can't tell you what, you know, six years on in leadershi I would have been dealing with.

And so I don't second gues somebody else's decision making.

But what I can tell you is that for me, running for this seat in the U.S. Senate my responsibility is going to be to leverage the role, like the constitutional role of an elected representative, to step up and fight back these are not normal time and we cannot act like they are.

Well, but if you look at the job of a senator or any member of Congress, that part of it is working to get things for your state in the federal budget.

You just mentioned the you know, mentioned the number that if you're going to tangle with an administratio that is of the opposite party, especially if that party also controls the Senate, then you could find yourself in a problem in the budget process.

How do you thread that needle?

Yeah, look, I'll tell you this right now, it's rather clear that this administration is not serious about the role, the constitutional role of the Senate or the House.

They're not going about trying to achieve their ends by passing legislation.

What they're trying to do is run roughshod over the constitutional process and over Congress.

And frankly, Republican members of Congress are letting them do it.

I think you're right tha if this was a normal situation, the responsibilities to work very closely with the administration to tr and get budget priorities done.

But there is nothing about the way that this administration is operating that tells me that they're serious abou actually working with Congress.

I just look at the way that they've used executive actions in ways that are way past what the president has been.

From a policy perspective outside the budget outside engaging in combat with, you know, a far right administration.

If you could choose one bill that you would sponso and work for, what would it be?

Well, you know, I'm a doctor by training.

I got into politics not becaus I dreamt of being a politician.

I wanted to be a doctor.

And then as I was doin this work of training to be one, I came to realize that the biggest challenge we have in health care is what we can do in a patient's room is whether or not a patient can get to the room in the first place.

And so for me, guaranteed access to universal health coverage based on a government strong governance program, as they do in every other high income country in the world, that is has been my whole priority.

I literally wrote the book on Medicare for All.

That being said, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that there is no health without wealth.

And right now people feel like they're being priced ou of their lives and livelihoods and we have a responsibility to step up and take on the corporate powers, be they in health care or in groceries or in food manufacturing or in other manufacturer tha are dominating our governance.

And so they would be to I know you asked me for one, Medicare for All would be my baby, but the second one would be legislation to take on the power of corporations to influence our politics, because that's what I think is corrupting our ability to keep them from colluding, raising prices and pricing people out.

Doctor So we, the voters, understand what you're for and what you're against.

Had you been in the Senate on the last most controversial vote, how would you in terms of whether or not keep the government open, how would you have voted, which you have sided with Chuck Schumer and Gary Peters, or would you have sided the way Senator Slotkin voted?

I would have sided against the continuing resolution with Senator Slotkin.

And I think what we're seeing here is a recognition that this is not business as usual.

And I think sometimes when folks get elected to these jobs, obviousl the thing you got elected to do is the procedural par of the job, the ability to vote.

But the other side of it, though, is the ability to step up and represent.

Right.

Represent your constituency.

And I think folks are sick an tired of watching our politics get leverage for the authoritarian tendencies of the president.

And so I thin you've got to lay it all down.

And look I think the challenge is, yes, if you if you vote, which functionally shuts down government, the worry is that you're going to get blamed for it.

But the reality of it is Republicans put so much into that C.R.

that is outsid the bounds of normal politics.

That is their responsibility.

They should have worked with Democrats.

And if they're not willing to do it, then you've got to be willing to throw down the gauntlet, because at the end of the day, you were elected to lead.

You were elected to represent.

This is not the syste of government that we all saw.

You don't buy the argument that to have voted the way Senator Peters voted would have given more power to the president and therefore he could have done potentially more, quote unquote, damage.

No, I don't.

And here's why.

Look, I understand the argument that they're making to get it to use the presidential power he had.

Clearly, he's not I mean, he's not afraid to go beyond the presidential powers he's got.

But I think the issue here is, is this is that, yes, he has already arrogated to himself tried to take on powers he doesn't have.

You watched him literally tan the global economy over tariffs?

That didn't make sense in any sense of the word and then pass a stock tip to his buddies so that the billionaires in this country could make $300 billion.

I mean, this is a guy who is acting well out of bounds of normal politics.

If he were to try and pus all of the things he was trying to push into that C.R.

to get it passed, and Democrats said, no, over my dead body, we're not going to let you cut Medicaid.

We're not going to le you gut the federal government.

I actually think that lands on him.

And so I think we've got to remember that this job is two pieces.

There's a procedural job, bu there's also a leadership job.

And you've got to be willing to take your argument to the American public.

In your view, how have the dynamics changed since the last time you ran for statewide office?

Do you see this moment as as a time where progressiv ideals could make more headway?

Yeah, Lauren I really appreciate the question.

And I'll tell you this when I ran back in 2018, I said something that peopl weren't quite ready to believe, which was that Donald Trump was not the disease.

Right?

We were living in this world where we thought he was a mistake, right?

This crazy thing had happened and obviously the recor would correct itself this time.

Right.

We understand tha that that people voted for him.

Again, he's not the disease.

He's the worse symptom of the disease.

The disease is a system of politics that allows people like him, billionaires and oligarchs to take our government and forge our pain into cynicism.

I think this time around, as I've had conversations leading up to the decision to run, I think people are ready to take that on and say, you know what, yes we have to fight against Trump, but you can't beat something with nothing.

And so the question that Democrats, I think of all stripes have to be asking themselve are, okay, what is that thing?

And I think the problem that too often Democrats face is that we try to triangulate to a message that's perfectly inoffensive to everyone including the corporate donors who tend to write checks to the party.

Right.

In ways that leave us saying nothing at all.

But then we say it with enthusiasm.

So if you're out ther saying nothing with enthusiasm, you just look ridiculous.

And unfortunately, we've looked ridiculous in the past.

I think right now this is a time for clarity.

It's a time for courage.

And I think what I bring to the table is the ability to speak clearly, honestly and directly to the pain that the public is feeling and to turn that into public policy results.

And so I look forwar to continue that conversation.

So in a state that went for Donald Trump and this is obviously a practical question, you're making an impassioned argument for a moral aspect of it.

How does that get you?

Should you make i to the general to 51% in a state that went for Donald Trump?

Yeah, let's let's break down the math of that.

So the most surprisin aspect of Donald Trump's victory was that fine, he won over the MAGA base.

MAGA base is not voting for anybody with a D in front of their name.

Okay, then he won over the country club Republicans.

Yeah, and our play has always been maybe we can get a couple of them to maybe get out of the country club for a minute and vote for a Democrat.

But you know else he won?

He won young men, disaffected young men.

And the reason that they voted for Trump is because they were sick and tired of feeling like peopl weren't telling them the truth.

And the thing about Trump is this He is very good at identifying pain.

He just takes that pain and forges it into cynicism.

I think we've got to be true about speaking to people's pain and forging it into hope for something that can be better.

And I'll tell you, there is no better person to win over disaffected young men than a relatively disaffected young man.

And I think we have an opportunity, right to speak directly to those folks about the issues that they face.

And so I think there is a real pathway here in the general.

But more importantly is this we're trying to build a coalition of all types of people, because here's the thing our politics have been dominated by this idea that everybody's fighting everybody.

And look, I'm willing to fight back against Donald Trump.

I've got receipts on that.

But it's not just about what you fight against.

It's about what you fight for.

And I think the problem i we haven't been telling people what we're actually fighting for, clearly and directly.

So I'm confident that in this primary I'm going to have an opportunity to build on what we did in 2018 to continue the conversation with voters and to forge that into a movement, into the general election where we're able to get these young men who've been so frustrated, frankly, pissed off at the state of the world to be like, hey, strengt isn't that you beat up on people who you think are weaker than you.

Strength is about standing up for what you believe in and building something that brings people together.

And I think we can do that in this race.

In the past, you have not taken PAC money.

Will you hold to tha same position and can you quite honestly go a year and a half and win this race without taking some kind of PAC money?

Yeah.

So I won't take corporate PAC money.

I'm happy to accept money from unions, for example.

But it's the corporate PAC money, right?

The money that comes from folk who CEOs make 18 million bucks a year.

I'm not going to take it.

And the reason I'm confident that I can do this is because I know that folks chipping i five bucks, ten bucks, 15 bucks that they've powered some of the biggest movements in our country.

And to me, I'm asking for people's votes.

So I'm going to ask people to fund this campaign rather than the corporations who we so assiduously try to tiptoe around and end up saying nothing at all because we were unwilling to deal with the ways that they've corrupte all of the systems of our lives.

I just want be clear about something.

We get monetized every time we get sick.

Don't you think about that, right?

You get your pay garnished every two weeks or four weeks so that you can pay a deductible if you get sick.

And it's that deductibl that has created the situation where as a country we hold $225 billion in medical debt, that's bigger than the GDP of half of the US states, we can do better.

But the reason we do this is because those same corporations end up funding campaigns.

So you're not allowed to talk about it in the way that I just did.

So we're going to do an over time segment.

But quickly, you're running against a state legislator.

And when you appeared in this program the last time, you said that being an executive was better than being a legislator, do you still hold to that?

I think what people are looking for is not just who can fight back, it's who can build in the future.

I've got a lot of experience building government agencies and delivers your executive experience better than her legislative experience?

Well, I thin that's for the voters to decide.

Well, but you said that the last time you were here you said that was more important to have executive experience.

I was running for an executive role.

Look I think I have a lot of respect for State Senator McMorrow.

I think what people are looking for is somebody who can make government work for people.

And as an executiv in government, I've done that.

Should we continue the conversation?

I look forward to it.

All right let's do closed credits first.

WKAR.org Come on back for more of our conversation with the good doctor.

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Learn more at bellwetherpr.com For more off the record, visit WKAR.org Michigan Public television stations have contributed to the production costs of off the record.