>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE'RE COMMITTED TO ISRAEL'S SECURITY.

WE'RE ALSO COMMITTED TO DE-ESCALATING.

>> ISRAEL STRIKES BACK AT IRAN.

WHAT'S AHEAD FOR A REGION ALREADY ON EDGE?

I ASK RETIRED ISRAELI GENERAL AMOS YADLIN AND EXPERT RAY TAKEYH.

THEN -- >> WE ARE DOCUMENTING HUMAN PAIN.

>> STANDING UP TO PUTIN.

UKRAINIAN NOBEL LAUREATE OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK TALKS ABOUT TRACKING WAR CRIMES AND HOLDING THE KREMLIN TO ACCOUNT.

PLUS -- >> IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED COIN.

YOU HAVE TO HOLD FEAR AND HOPE AT THE SAME TIME.

>> ANXIETY AND ACTION.

BILL WEIR ON THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE TACKLING CLIMATE CHANGE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO, WELCOME.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IT HAS BEEN A BUSY 24 HOURS.

JUST BEFORE SUNRISE IN IRAN, ISRAEL STRUCK BACK, TARGETING A MILITARY AIR BASE IN ISFAHAN.

IT FOLLOWED THROUGH ON ITS VOW TO RETALIATE AGAINST TEHRAN FOR ATTACKING ISRAEL OVER THE WEEKEND.

IRAN, YOU MAY RECALL, FIRED MISSILES AND DRONES AT ISRAELI SOIL.

AFTER AN ISRAELI STRIKE, SYRIA KILLED SEVERAL IRANIAN COMMANDERS.

THIS IS A TIT-FOR-TAT THAT HAS THE REGION ON EDGE.

AS THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE PUSH TO DE-ESCALATE, THERE ARE SIGNS BOTH COUNTRIES ARE TRYING TO NOT LET THIS FIGHT SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL.

LET'S GET TO TEL AVIV TO OUR FIRST GUEST.

RETIRED ISRAELI GENERAL AMOS YADLIN.

GENERAL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

FOR DAYS LEADING UP TO THIS COUNTER STRIKE FROM THE ISRAELIS, WORLD LEADERS HAVE BEEN URGING TO SHOW RESTRAIN, TO BE SMART, TO QUOTE DAVID CAMERON IN THEIR RESPONSE, AND TO BE MEASURED.

EVERYTHING THAT WE KNOW ABOUT WHAT TOOK PLACEOVER NIGHT, IS THAT WHAT ISRAEL DID IN YOUR VIEW?

>> YEAH.

I THINK I THINK ISRAEL WAS IN A DILEMMA BETWEEN DECISIVE RETALIATION, VERY MUCH LIKE WHAT THE IRANIANS HAVE DONE, TENS OR HUNDREDS OF TIMES, OR NOT TO DO ANYTHING AS THE WORLD ASKS ISRAEL AND TO RESTRAIN IN THE GOAL NOT TO REACH ESCALATION.

THE ISRAELIS, LIKE ISRAELIS, WHAT THE IRANIANS HAVE DONE WITH 300 PROJECTILES, MISSILES, CRUISE MISSILES AND DRONES, IT SEEMS THAT ACCORDING TO THE REPORT, ISRAEL HAS DONE IT WITH SINGLE, MAYBE TWO, MAYBE THREE MISSILES THAT BASICALLY HIT THE AIR BASE, AND THE AIR DEFENSE IN THE BASE, WHICH IS A UNIQUE CAPABILITY, AND THEN DAMAGED THE AIR DEFENSE MORE THAN THE IRANIANS WERE ABLE TO HIT THE AIR BASE IN ISRAEL.

SOW RETALIATION, NO.

I HOPE NOW THAT THE TWO SIDES WILL CLIMB DOWN FROM THE TREE AND WILL SCALE DOWN THE TENSION IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> SO PROPORTIONALITY IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF PROJECTILES LAUNCHED, ISRAEL LAUNCHED JUST A FRACTION OF THE UNPRECEDENTED 300 PLUS MISSILES AND DRONES THAT IRAN LAUNCHED LAST WEEK.

THEY WERE SUCCESSFULLY BROUGHT DOWN BY ISRAEL AND ITS ALLIES IN THE REGION.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE SPECIFIC, WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE TARGET OF THIS AIR BASE?

AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE WAS MINOR DAMAGE TO THE AIR BASE IN ISRAEL, HOME TO SOME OF ITS FIGHTER PLANES.

AND THAT HAD SEEMED TO BE INTERPRETED BY SOME AS A DIRECT PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE, SORT OF A TIT-FOR-TAT FROM ISRAEL.

IS THAT HOW YOU'RE VIEWING IT?

>> I VIEW IT AS A WARNING TO IRON.

YOU ARE VULNERABLE.

LOOK WHAT ONE OR TWO MISSILES HAVE DONE.

IF YOU CONTINUE TO FIRE AT ISRAEL, A VERY IMPORTANT ASSET OF YOURS AND THIS IS ALSO NEAR A NUCLEAR SITE OF IRAN.

THINK TWICE BEFORE YOU ATTACK ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IS TRYING TO BRING BACK THE RULES OF THE GAME.

IF YOU PAY ATTENTION, IRANIAN MILITIA IN SYRIA WILL ATTACK TONIGHT AS WELL, SAYING ISRAEL WILL KEEP THE FREEDOM OF ATTACKING IRANIANS THAT SUPPORT ALL THE TERROR ORGANIZATIONS AROUND IT AND TRY TO HAVE HEZBOLLAH 2.0 IN SYRIA.

THIS IS GOING TO CONTINUE IN SPITE OF IRAN DEVASTATING INTENTION TO HIT ISRAEL, AND WE SHOULD NOT JUDGE THEM BY THE RESULTS THAT ARE REALLY NOT IMPRESSIVE.

BUT THE INTENTION WAS TO DESTROY TWO AIR FORCE BASES AND SOME OTHER INTELLIGENCE SITES.

NEXT TIME, IT WAS DEMONSTRATED TO THE IRANIANS TONIGHT.

>> THERE ARE TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT FOLLOWING IRAN'S ATTACK.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO SAY IRAN'S ULTIMATE INTENTION WAS TO INJURE, TO KILL ISRAELI CIVILIANS.

THERE ARE OTHERS, PERHAPS MORE OF A MINORITY THAT SAY THIS HAD BEEN WELL TELEGRAPHED AND WHILE VISUALLY THIS MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE A SIGNIFICANT LARGE ATTACK, IN REALITY, GIVEN THE SCALE AND THE TIME SPAN THAT IT TAKES THE DRONES TO LEAD IRAN TO ISRAEL, THAT THIS WAS MORE OF A SYMBOLIC MOVE.

WHICH CAMP ARE YOU IN?

>> I'M NOT IN THE LATER.

THE LATER IS FAKE NEWS.

IT IS AN EXCUSE.

EVEN IF YOU FORGET ABOUT THE DRONES, 120 BLIMALLISTIC MISSIL IS AN ATTACK.

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY BUT ISRAEL THAT POSSESSES A VERY GOOD AIR DEFENSE WOULD HAVE BEEN DEVASTATED BY SUCH AN ATTACK.

AND THIS IN A WAY SHOWS YOUY IRAN SHOULD NOT GET A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THEY ARE BEHAVING VERY MUCH LIKE PUTIN IN UKRAINE IS AN AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR THAT DAMAGES THE STABILITY OF THE WORLD.

WE THINK IN THE MIDDLE EAST TODAY, THE GLOBAL FIGHT BETWEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA AND IRAN, WHICH ARE IN THE AXIS OF EVIL, AND THE U.S., EUROPE, ISRAEL, SAUDI ARABIA, UAE, WHO ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

ONE OF THE REASONS ISRAEL RETALIATION WAS BASICALLY, THE COALITION IS IMPORTANT.

THE COALITION IS TO STOP THIS ATTACK AND ISRAEL WANTS TO KEEP AND LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT THE COALITION IS ASKING TO DO.

>> AND NOT PUT COUNTRIES LIKE JORDAN OR EVEN SAUDI ARABIA IN EVEN MORE OF AN UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION THAN THEY WERE ALREADY IN FOLLOWING THAT UNPRECEDENTED SHOW OF UNITY IN DEFENSE LAST WEEKEND.

LET ME ASK YOU IN GENERAL, GOING BACK TO -- THE SHADOW WAR BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES.

WHAT IS REALLY THE GAME CHANGER IS YOU SAW IRAN FROM ITS OWN SOIL LAUNCH AN ATTACK ON TO ISRAEL.

FROM ALL REPORTS, THAT SEEMED TO HAVE BEEN BASED ON A MISCALCULATION ON ISRAEL'S PART FOLLOWING ITS TARGETED STRIKE, WHICH THEY HAVEN'T TAKEN CREDIT BUT IS LARGELY BELIEVED TO BE ISRAEL ON APRIL 1st, GOING AFTER THE IRGC MEMBERS AND LEADERS IN SYRIA.

WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY LESSONS TO BE LEARNED AND INVESTIGATIONS TO BE LAUNCHED FOLLOWING THE TRAGEDY OF OCTOBER 7th AND HOW THAT WAS MISSED.

I WOULD LIKE FOR TO YOU HEAR WHAT THE FORMER IDF INTELLIGENCE CHIEF HAD TO SAY TO CHRISTIANE EARLIER ON BOTH POINTS.

>> I THINK THE INTELLIGENCE, THE IDF INTELLIGENCE WAS WRONG ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER FOR NOT DETECTING THE HAMAS INTENTION AND IT WAS WRONG OF ASSUMING WHAT WILL BE THE IRANIAN RESPONSE.

THOSE ARE TWO MISTAKES.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

>> DO YOU AGREE WITH HIS ANALYSIS THERE?

AND GIVEN THAT, DO YOU THINK ANY FURTHER RESPONSES, MEASURES THAT ISRAEL TAKES AGAINST IRANIAN FACILITIES, AGAINST IRANIAN APPRO PROXIES, AGAINST IRANIAN OFFICIALS, THEY WILL BE THINKING NOT ONCE, NOT TWICE, BUT THREE TIMES GIVEN WHAT WE SAW LAST WEEKEND?

>> I THINK IT IS TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.

WHAT YOU ASK ABOUT THE INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENT IS ONE ISSUE.

AND WHETHER IRAN IS ABLE TO DETER ISRAEL IS ANOTHER ISSUE.

WHAT I SAY IS THAT THE FORMER CHIEF OF INTELLIGENCE, YOU ARE NOT A PROPHET THAT CAN SEE THE FUTURE 100%.

YOU SHOULD BRING VERY CAREFULLY AND VERY MODESTLY AN ASSESSMENT ON THE INTENTIONS OF THE ENEMY.

UNLIKE THE CAPABILITIES OF THE ENEMIES, IF YOU HAVE GOOD SOURCES, YOU ARE 100% CAN BE 100% RIGHT.

THE INTENTIONS, YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

BECAUSE INTENTIONS MAYBE CHANGE IN THE FUTURE.

SO CAN YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT THE INTENTION OF THE SUPREME LEADER OF IRAN?

NOT REALLY.

BECAUSE OF THE FAKE NEWS THAT ISRAEL ATTACKED A DIPLOMATIC EMBASSY, THE SUPREME LEADER HAS WRONG INFORMATION.

AND HE KNEW THE GENERAL THAT WAS ASSASSINATED THERE.

AND THIS LED HIM, I THINK, TO THE DECISION TO ATTACK ISRAEL.

THIS NOT ALWAYS CAN BE INTELLIGENCE.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT, WHAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 7th OF OCTOBER AND THE 14th OF APRIL, EVEN IN THE FIRST ONE, ISRAEL WAS NOT READY OPERATIONALLY.

IN THE SECOND ONE, EVEN IF THERE WAS AN ANALYSIS OF THE FUTURE, ISRAEL WAS READY.

READY WITH THE BEST AIR DEFENSE IN THE WORLD WITH THE COALITION TO ACHIEVE AN UNPRECEDENTED ACHIEVEMENT OF STOPPING MOST OF THE PROJECTILES THAT HAVEN'T CAUSED ANY SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE.

ANY DAMAGE AT ALL TO AIRPLANES.

EVEN THOUGH THEY FIRE SO MANY BALLISTIC MISSILES.

>> SO THINGS MAY HAVE BEEN COOLED FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE.

YOU WOULD AGREE THIS IS NO TIME TO RELAX ON ISRAEL'S STANDPOINT THAT THEY'VE STILL GOT A HOT WAR GOING ON IN GAZA.

THEY STILL HAVE OVER 100 HOSTAGES THAT REMAIN THERE.

THEIR MISSION AND GOALS TO DEFEAT HAMAS.

TO THE BRING THE HOSTAGES HOME.

TO DEFEAT THE LEADERSHIPSHIP OF HAMAS HAS NOT BEEN ACCOMPLISHED WILL ISRAEL GO INTO RAFAH?

THERE CONTINUES TO BE QUESTIONS ON WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE TO LIMIT CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

GIVE US YOUR TAKE ON WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED THE LAST TWO WEEKS, IMPACTS AT ALL ISRAEL'S STRATEGY GOING FORWARD IN GAZA.

>> YEAH.

IT'S A VERY, VERY GOOD QUESTION.

ISRAEL IS FACING NOT ONLY ONE FRONT BUT SEVEN FRONTS.

NOT ALL OF THEM IN HIGH INTENSITY WAR.

MOST OF THEM IN LOW INTENSITY WAR.

SOME LAUNCHING FROM IRAQ, FROM SYRIA, FROM YEMEN.

BUT IRAN TOOK THE MAIN INTENTION OF ISRAEL, AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE DREAM.

WHEN THEY LAUNCHED THE ATTACK, THE BARBARIC ATTACK ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER, HE WANTED ALL THESE SEVEN FRONTS TO REACT AT THE SAME TIME.

HE FAILED.

SO HE FAILED DURING RAMADAN.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS THAT ISRAEL DECIDED NOT TO RETALIATE IN A HUGE ATTACK IS TO GO BACK TO THE PRIORITIES THAT ISRAEL DESCRIBED, WHICH IS TO DISMANTLE HAMAS AND BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.

HOWEVER, AS SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID, IS NOW THE OBSTACLE TO ASSIST IN GAZA.

AND SINCE ITS POSITION IS SO HUMILIATING TO THE AMERICANS, THEY PUT FORWARD A PROPOSAL THAT FOR THE THIRD TIME THEY REJECT.

SO NOW I THINK THEIR OBJECTION TO ISRAEL GOING TO RAFAH WENT FROM A RED LIGHT TO A YELLOW LIGHT.

IF ISRAEL WILL SEND TO THE AMERICAN EXPECTATION HOW TO REMOVE THE UNINVOLVED POPULATION, THE INNOCENT PEOPLE, TO ANOTHER PLACE, THE CHANCES THAT RAFAH WILL HAPPEN WENT UP, I THINK, AFTER THE WEEKEND BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE ISRAEL AND AMERICA IMPROVED THE COMMUNICATION.

BECAUSE ISRAEL WAS SO CAUTIOUS AND CONSIDERATE WITH IRAN, MAYBE IT WILL GET, AND HE ALREADY GOT, THE SECURITY COUNCIL AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN STATE AND MAYBE A YELLOW LIGHT.

IT IS IMPORTANT.

POLITICAL SANCTIONS MAYBE NAP BACK, WHICH ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN BOMBS AND MISSILES TO STOP THE EVIL REGIME IN IRAN.

>> NO DOWNPLAYING THOUGH THE HUGE CHALLENGE THAT THEY FACE GOING INTO RAFAH.

AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN TOUCHED ON THE HEZBOLLAH THREAT THAT CONTINUES TO LOOM AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE NEARLY 215,000 OR SO ISRAELIS THAT HAVE BEEN DISPLACED BOTH IN THE NORTH AND THE SOUTH.

STILL A LOT OF CHALLENGES REMAIN.

THANK YOU.

SO FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR LISTENING.

>>> LET'S TURN NOW TO RAY TAKEYH, A FORMER STATE HOUSE OFFICIAL.

RAY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

EARLIER THIS WEEK BEFORE ISRAEL'S ATTACK LAST NIGHT, YOU WROTE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" THAT QUOTE, THE BEST WAY FOR WASHINGTON TO LIMIT THE EXPANSION OF THE CONFLICT IS TO SIGNAL CLEARLY THE INTENTION TO SUPPORT AN ISRAELI COUNTER ATTACK.

IT IS THE RECURRING MILITARY PARADOX TO CONTAIN AER WITH A, A BLIGENT EVER RENT SOMETIMES NEED TO THREATEN EXPANSION.

IRAN'S INTERNAL SITUATION, THE MEMORY ABOUT PAST MILITARY ACTION AND A COULDN'T SPEAR OR T THE, A EXPERIENCE WORLD VIEW.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN.

NOT SURE WE WILL ON THIS.

WE DID HEAR FROM SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN.

AND HERE'S WHAT HE SAID TODAY AT THE G-7 IN ITALY.

>> THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS.

WHAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON, WHAT THE G-7 IS FOCUSED ON, AND IT IS REFLECTED IN OUR STATEMENT AND IN OUR CONVERSATION, IS OUR WORK TO DE-ESCALATE TENSIONS.

TO DE-ESCALATE FROM ANY POTENTIAL CONFLICT.

>> IN YOUR VIEW, WAS THAT THE WRONG RESPONSE?

>> WELL, SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE CRISIS, SHORTLY INTO IT DURING THE GAZA WAR, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BEGAN TO SEPARATE ITSELF FROM ISRAEL.

IT BEGAN TO SUPPORT CEASE-FIRE RESOLUTIONS.

I BEGAN CALLING FOR RESTRAINT.

AND ESSENTIALLY, YOU BEGAN TO SEE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO STATES MAGNIFY.

AS I THINK WE SAID IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," THAT'S A WRONG APPROACH IN TERMS OF IMPRESSING YOUR ADVERSARIES.

SINCE OCTOBER 6TH, TWO OF AMERICA'S ADVERSARIES THIS IS REGION, TWO OF IRAN'S ADVERSARIES, THEY HAVE BEHAVED IN AN UNPRECEDENTED WAY.

WE HAVE TO RECONCEPTUALIZE SOME OF OUR IDEAS HOW DISRUPTIVE THEY ARE.

AND THE PERCEPTION OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO POWERS ONLY INSTIGATES FURTHER BOLDNESS ON THEIR PART AND RECKLESSNESS AS WE HAVE JUST SEEN.

>> SO WHAT ROLE IF ANY, IRAN'S RETALIATION, WE SHOULD NOTE, THE UNPRECEDENTED RETALIATION LAST WEEK, THE FIRST TIME THEY LAUNCHED MISSILES FROM ITS OWN SOIL, CAME AFTER THE APRIL 1st STRIKE THAT ISRAEL CONDUCTED AGAINST IRGC MEMBERS IN SYRIA.

ONE HAS TO ASSUME HAD THAT NOT TAKEN PLACE, WOULD WE HAVE SEEN THEM STEP IN?

THEY DIDN'T MENTION THEY WERE DOING THAT FOR THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE.

>> THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A TRIGGERING MECHANISM.

IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN THE BOLDNESS OF THE IRANIAN RESPONSE.

IN THE PAST THEY HAVE TARGETED IRANIAN MILITARY OFFICIALS AND EVEN SCIENTIFIC OFFICIALS WITHIN IRAN ITSELF.

AND THE IRANIANS HAVE RESPONDED IN A MANNER THEY HAVE BEFORE.

TRYING TO RELY ON PROXIES AND EVEN TRYING TO PERHAPS TARGET ISRAELI COMPOUNDS OUTSIDE ISRAEL.

SO TO DO WHAT THEY DID, AS YOU SUGGESTED, HADN'T DONE IN 45 YEARS, THAT'S JUST MORE THAN GENERAL -- THAT'S TRYING TO SIGNAL A NUMBER OF THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, SIGNAL TO ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES THAT THERE'S A POSSIBILITY OF A REGIONAL WAR UNLESS THERE'S SOME KIND OF A CEASE-FIRE OR SOMEHOW THE ISRAEL MILITARY OPERATIONS CEASE IN GAZA.

SECOND OF ALL, THEY WERE TRYING TO SEND A SIGNAL TO THEIR PROXIES THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO SUPPORT THEM IN A BRAZEN MANARY IRRESPECTIVE OF THE COST.

SO PARTICULARLY HAMAS, TRYING TO INSTIGATE A GREATER DEGREE OF IRANIAN INVOLVEMENT IN THE WAR WITH ISRAEL.

>> AS YOU HEARD WITH THE GENERAL IN OUR PRIVATE CONVERSATION, GOING INTO THE APRIL 1st ATTACK, NOT ASSUMING THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE DEGREE TO THE RESPONSE THAT WE WOULD HAVE SEEN FROM IRAN, ON THE ONE HAND, YOU SAY THAT THE U.S.

SINCE OCTOBER 7th COULD HAVE STOOD UP IN A MORE UNIFIED CAPACITY WITH ISRAEL.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU EVEN NOTED IN A PODCAST THAT I LISTENED TO THIS WEEK THAT THERE'S A NEW GENERATION OF ELITE COMING TO POWER IN IRAN.

SO PERHAPS THE PREDICTABILITY MEASURE IN THE EQUATION HAS CHANGED.

NO?

DOES THAT NOT RAISE THE STAKES FOR THE U.S. TO BE MORE BOLD AND TAKE SOME OF THE TACTICS YOU'VE SUGGESTED?

>> THERE CERTAINLY SEEMS TO BE A GENERATIONAL CHANGE IN IRAN.

WE KNOW THE SCOPE OF IT.

THIS NEW ELITE THAT IS ASSUMING POSITIONS OF POWER TENDS TO COME FROM RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVE CENTERS.

WE DON'T KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT THEM.

THIS IS NOT TO SUGGEST THE OLD ELITE WAS PREDICTABLE.

ALL THE MORE REASONS WHY IT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO IMPRESS THE ELITE WHO ARE APPARENTLY MORE RECKLESS THAN THEIR PREDECESSORS ABOUT AMERICAN POWER.

THE AMERICAN POWER IS SOMETHING THE IRANIANS RESPECT.

IRRESPECTIVE OF THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.

THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN FORCE MORE.

PARTICULARLY SINCE YOU SEE A GENERATIONAL SHIFT IN IRAN.

THERE IS A NEW GENERATION COMING TO POWER AND THEY HAVE REACHED THE AGE OF MATURITY AT THE TIME OF THE POST 9/11 WARS WHERE THE UNITED STATES BECAME ENTANGLED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, DISPENSING WITH IT AND TALK ABOUT FOREVER WARS.

THEY HAVE COME TO POWER WITH THE PERCEPTION NOT THAT AMERICAN POWER HAS WANED BUT THE AMERICAN WILL TO ENFORCE HAS ATTENUATED WITH THE EXPERIENCE THAT IT HAS HAD IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO ISRAEL'S RESPONSE LAST NIGHT?

WAS IT THE RIGHT APPROACH?

WAS IT MEASURED?

WAS IT PROPORTIONATE?

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT IN PROJECTILES BECAUSE IT WASN'T.

WAS IT SHOWING TO IRAN THAT WE CAN PENETRATE YOUR AIR DEFENSEFULLY TIME WE WANT AND MAYBE WE'LL GO AFTER YOUR NUCLEAR FACILITIES THIS TIME BUT YOUR AIR FORCE BASE THERE LOOKED PRETTY EASY TO TARGET FOR US.

>> WELL, I THINK THIS ARGUMENT CAN BE EXAGGERATED.

THE NUCLEAR INSTALLATIONS ARE DEEPLY BURIED UNDERGROUND.

EVEN IN THE TOWN'S ENRICHMENT FACILITY.

SO NOT ABOVE SURFACE FACILITIES THAT CAN BE SO EASILY TARGETED.

THEY REQUIRE SPECIALIZED MUNITIONS.

AND WILL THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS VAST AND DISPERSED SO IT WON'T BE DISABLED WITH A SINGLE STRIKE.

WHAT THEY DEMONSTRATED IS THAT THEY CAN PENETRATE IRANIAN AIR SPACE.

THEY MAY HAVE SCORED A SYMBOLIC VICTORY IN THAT SENSE.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THERE HAVE BEEN TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT IN ISRAELI.

ONE IS THAT SECURITY CAN BEST BE ACHIEVED BY BEING CLOSE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND ESSENTIALLY ACCEPTING AMERICAN MANDATES, EVEN WHEN THEY QUESTION THE MANDATES.

THE SECOND SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT SUGGESTS THAT ISRAELIS CAN BEST INSURE THE SECURITY BY DISAGREEING WITH THOSE MANDATES.

IT SEEM A FORMER SCHOOL HAS PREVAILED IN THIS CASE AND THE ISRAELIS ABIDED BY THE AMERICAN INJUNCTION TO DE-ESCALATE THE CRISIS.

>> OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T COMPARE GOING AFTER IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES THE WAY YOU SAW ISRAEL DO IN THE EARLY 80s WITH IRAQ.

THIS WOULD BE A MUCH LARGER AND MORE COMPLICATED MISSION FOR ISRAEL TO PROCEED FORWARD ON.

AS FAR AS THE OTHER FACTORS THAT ISRAEL HAS AT PLAY NOW, ONE OF THE OTHER REASONS LAST WEEK'S THWARTING OF IRAN'S ATTACK WAS SO SUCCESSFUL WAS NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF ISRAEL'S MISSILE DEFENSE AND TECHNOLOGY BUT THAT OF ITS ALLIES, INCLUDING MIDDLE EAST NEIGHBORS LIKE JORDAN AND EVEN THE ROLE THAT WE'RE HEARING SAUDI ARABIA PLAY IN ALL OF THIS.

GIVEN THAT ISRAEL DID NOT WANT TO JEOPARDIZE THAT POTENTIAL ALLIANCE GOING FORWARD, DO YOU THINK THERE WAS THE SMART PLAY?

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT ISRAELIS TOOK THE REGIONAL OPINION INTO CONSIDERATION, TOOK THE AMERICAN OPINION INTO CONSIDERATION, AND TOOK THEIR OWN PREDISPOSITIONS INTO CONSIDERATION.

NAMELY THEY'RE TOO PREOCCUPIED WITH THE NORTHERN FRONTIER TO EXPAND THE CONFLICT POTENTIALLY.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THOSE ARE THE CALCULATIONS.

YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF.

ARE THE JORDANIANS AND SAUDIS MORE ORLESS IMPRESSED WITH THE RETALIATION WITH SEDAN?

I WOULD SAY PROBABLY LESS.

THE CORE LOGIC OF THE IRANIAN SECURITY POLICY HAS BEEN THAT BY INFLAMING ISRAEL'S FRONTIERS, WHAT THEY CALL THE RINGS OF FIRE, AND BY CENSURING ISRAEL IN INTERNATIONAL BODIES SUCH AS THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE NATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.

YOU CAN ACTUALLY GET ISRAELIS TO LESSEN THEIR DESIRE TO RETALIATE.

THAT CORE LOGIC HAS TO BE CONSIDERED VALID.

I DO UNDERSTAND THAT HAD IRANIAN MILITARY ATTACK ON ISRAEL, DESIGNED FOR A HIGH-CASUALTY EVENT.

INDIANA TODAY, AND HE'S 85 YEARS OLD TODAY.

AS IT STANDS TODAY, THE CORE ARGUMENT THAT THE SECURITY IN IRAN THAT RELYING ON PROXIES IS AN EFFECTIVE WAY OF IMMUNIZING OUR TERRITORY FROM OUR MOST EGREGIOUS BEHAVIOR, THAT'S NOT ENTIRELY INVALID TODAY.

THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT INVALID HAS TO HAVE SOME KIND OF AN IMPRESSION ON THE SAUDI MONDAY, AY AND THE JORDANIAN ONE.

>> SO IN YOUR VIEW, DETERRENCE HASN'T BEEN REESTABLISHED.

>> IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SEE HOW THIS HAS RECONSTITUTED ISRAELI DEFENSE POSTURE.

AND ONE WAY YOU CAN SAY THAT IS BECAUSE THEY KEEP TALKING ABOUT SYMBOLIC MOVES.

THIS WAS A SYMBOLIC VICTORY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT, IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TANGIBLE ONES.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NOW WITH ALL EYES FOCUSED ON TENSIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE IS DIRE.

OVERFLIGHT A RUSSIAN ATTACK IN THE DNIPROPETROVSK REGION KILLED EIGHT PEOPLE INCLUDING TWO CHILDREN.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY CALLED HIS ALLIES LIFE SAVERS FOR HELPING TO AVOID MORE DAMAGE AND URGES THE WORLD NOT TO FORGET THEIR WAR.

THEY SUDDENLY ACCELERATE TO THE FINISH LINE FINALLY, DESPITE THREATS FROM LAWMAKERS TO OUST HIM, HOUSE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON SPUTING HIS MULTIBILLION AID PACKAGE TO THE VOTE THIS SATURDAY.

>> I CAN MAKE A SELFISH DECISION AND DO SOMETHING THAT'S DIFFERENT BUT I'M DOING WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE RIGHT THING.

I THINK PROVIDING AID IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

>> OUR NEXT GUEST IS HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK.

SHE WAS AWARDED A NOBEL PRIZE FOR HER WORK AS HEAD OF THE CENTER FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES.

SHE TALKS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF STANDING UP TO RUSSIA.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

SINCE THE WAR IN UKRAINE BEGAN, YOUR ORGANIZATION HAS DOCUMENTED MORE THAN 68,000 INSTANCES OF CRIMES YOU SAY HAVE BEEN COMMITTED BY THE RUSSIANS.

THESE ARE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

TELL ME, WHAT ARE THE TIMES OF THINGS THAT YOU HAVE DOCUMENTED?

>> RUSSIAN TROOPS HAVE DELIBERATELY SHE TOLD CHURCHES, MUSEUMS AND HOSPITALS.

THEY ARE IN EVACUATION CORRIDORS.

THEY TORTURE PEOPLE IN CAMPS.

THEY ABDUCT, ROBBING, RAPING AND KILLING CIVILIANS IN THEIR TERRITORIES.

SO SUCH THINGS.

>> HOW DO YOU VERIFY THIS?

DO YOU INTERVIEW THE SURVIVORS?

>> WE BUILD NATIONAL NETWORKS AND COVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY WHICH INCLUDE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

WE USE DIFFERENT SOURCES OF VERIFICATION AND GATHERING INFORMATION.

WE COLLECT TESTIMONIES.

WE SEND GROUPS TO WORK ON THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

WE RESEARCH AND OPEN DATA FOR VERIFICATION.

IF SOMETHING HAPPENED, FOR EXAMPLE, IN RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, THEY ARE ABLE TO COME TO THE PLACE AND TO MAKE THEIR OWN VIDEOS AND SPEAK WITH PEOPLE.

>> THERE IS A STORY YOU TALK ABOUT WHEN A YOUNG WOMAN, 14-YEAR-OLD NAMED SOPHIA FROM MARIUPOL.

WHAT THAT TO HER?

>> THIS YOUNG GIRL TOGETHER WITH HER MOTHER AND HER YOUNGER SISTER FOUND THEMSELVES IN THE CE CENTER.

AND THE AIR BOMBS WAS FLOWN TO HER RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS.

AND LIKE EVERYTHING WAS DESTROYED.

AND SHE TOLD TO MY COLLEAGUES THAT SHE TRIED TO DIG UP HER MOTHER FROM THE RUBBISH OF THE RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS.

SHE DESCRIBED VERY EMOTIONALLY HOW IT WAS.

LIKE THE PLANE WAS IN THE SKY AND SHE WAS AFRAID THAT ANOTHER BOMB WOULD APPEAR.

SHE TRIED TO HELP HER MOM.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT UNFORTUNATELY, HER MOM DIED.

AND SHE COULDN'T MANAGE TO SAVE HER.

>> WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

>> SHE WAS LEFT FIELDLY DEPORTED TO THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

AND THEN FORCED TO BE SENT TO RUSSIA.

BUT HER ELDER SISTER CAME AND TOOK HER AND THIS IS, UNFORTUNATELY, JUST EXCEPTION.

WE HAVE IDENTIFIED, I MEAN, UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT MORE THAN 19,000 UKRAINIAN CHILDREN ILLEGALLY DEPORTED TO RUSSIA.

AND ONLY 400 FROM THEM RETURNED HOME.

>> SO WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE 19,000 CHILDREN?

>> THEY WERE PUT IN HEEDUCATION CAMPS.

SOME OF THEM START TO BE QUICKLY PREPARING FOR FORCIBLE ADOPTION IN THE RUSSIAN ADOPTIVE FAMILIES.

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO MENTION THAT ACCORDING TO RUSSIAN LEGISLATION, THEY CAN CHANGE NOT JUST THE NAME BUT THE PLACE AND DATE OF BIRTH.

THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE AMONG THE CHILDREN ARE CHILDREN WITH PARENTS WHO WERE ARRESTED BY RUSSIA, AND THEY ALSO ARE PREPARING FOR FORCIBLE ADOPTION.

AND THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS SITUATION.

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IS IN THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE PEOPLE.

HOW IT CAN BE THAT YOUR CHILD IS, HAVE TO BE FORCIBLE ADOPT.

>> WHAT PURPOSE DOES THIS, OR WOULD THIS SERVE A COUNTRY LIKE RUSSIA TO DO THIS?

WHAT KIND OF AN EFFECT DOES IT HAVE TO THE UKRAINIAN WAR EFFORT, TO THE PEOPLE, TO THE CULTURE?

>> IT'S A GENOCIDE FOR RUSSIA TO BE SUPREME.

JUST RECENTLY, THEY PROVIDED INTERVIEW.

AND ONCE AGAIN, HE REPEATED THE CLAIMS THAT THERE ARE NO UKRAINIAN NATION.

THERE IS NO UKRAINIAN CULTURE.

THERE IS NO UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE.

AND WE FOR TEN YEARS, HOW THIS WAS A HORRIBLE PRACTICE.

RUSSIAN TROOPS DELIBERATELY EXTERMINATE ETHNIC LOCAL PEOPLE.

HOW RUSSIAN TROOPS DELIBERATELY DESTROYED UKRAINIAN HERITAGE.

NOW WHEN THEY ARE OUR CHILDREN, AND SEND THEM TO RUSSIA, IT IS PART OF THIS GENOCIDAL POLICY BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BRING THE CHILDREN UP AS RUSSIANS AND REMAIN THEIR IDENTICAL.

>> WHEN YOU HEAR THE NAME SOPHIA OR YOU TALK TO AND INTERVIEW THE SURVIVORS OF THESE TRAGEDIES AND ATROCITIES AND YOUR TEAM DOCUMENTS THIS DAY IN AND DAY OUT, YOU SEE THE WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING, HOW DO YOU PROCESS THAT?

>> FRANKLY SPEAKING, IT'S NOT EASY QUESTION TO ANSWER.

I WASN'T PREPARED FOR SUCH SCALE OF ATROCITIES.

EVEN ME, A LAWYER WITH MY FIELD EXPERIENCE, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS.

NOW WE ARE FACED WITH UNBELIEVABLE SCALE OF WAR CRIMES.

AND RUSSIA USES WAR CRIMES FOR FEARFUL RUSSIA ATTEMPTS TO BREAK PEOPLE'S RESISTANCE AND OCCUPY THE COUNTRY BY THE IMMENSE PAIN OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

TO BE CLEAR, WE DOCUMENT NOT JUST VIOLATIONS OF GENEVA.

WE ARE DOCUMENTING HUMAN PAIN.

>> WHAT IS THE FORUM WHERE A COUNTRY COULD BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE?

>> IT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I START TO ASK MYSELF FOR WHOM DO WE DOCUMENT THESE CRIMES FOR?

AS A HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER, I FIND MYSELF IN SITUATIONS WHERE THE LAW DOESN'T WORK.

IN 2022, THE U.N. COURT OF JUSTICE ISSUED THE DECISION AND OBLIGED RUSSIA TO WITHDRAW RUSSIAN TROOPS FROM UKRAINE.

AND RUSSIA IGNORED EVEN THE DECISION OF THE U.N. COURT JUSTICE.

SO THE WHOLE U.N. SYSTEM OF PEACE AND SECURITY CAN'T STOP THESE ATROCITIES.

AS A HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER, I DO BELIEVE IT IS TEMPORARY.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE DOCUMENTING THESE CRIMES SO THAT SOONER OR LATER, ALL RUSSIANS WHO COMMITTED THESE CRIMES BY THEIR OWN HANDS, AS WELL AS PUTIN AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND HIGH MILITARY COMMAND OF THE RUSSIAN STATE WILL BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

BEFORE THIS TIME, WE HAVE TO SEE.

AND THAT'S WHY I WILL BE VERY HONEST.

WE NEED WEAPONS TO DEFEND OUR COUNTRY, TO DEFEND OUR PEOPLE, AND TO DEFEND OUR FREEDOM.

NOW WE ARE IN A SITUATION WITH A LACK OF WEAPONS.

THE MILITARY SUPPORT IN CONGRESS IS BLOCKED.

I HOPE IT WILL BE RESOLVED.

>> SOMEONE WILL WATCH THIS AND SAY THIS IS A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LAWYER.

I CAN'T SHE WORKS TOWARD PEACE AND SHE'S ADVOCATING FOR WITH THA THAT, FOR WEAPONRY AND WAR.

IN ORDER TO DO WHAT?

>> UKRAINIANS WANT PEACE MUCH MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

BUT PEACE DOESN'T COME WHEN A COUNTRY WON'T STOP FIGHTING.

THAT'S NOT PEACE.

THAT'S OCCUPATION.

AND RUSSIANS KILLED.

OCCUPATION IS JUST ANOTHER FORM OF THE WORD WHICH BECOMES MORE INVISIBLE FOR THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY.

I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE I DOCUMENTED IT FOR TEN YEARS.

OCCUPATION MEANS TORTURE, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, ENFORCED DISAPPEARANCE, IN DENIAL OF YOUR IDENTITY, FORCIBLE ADOPTION OF YOUR OWN CHILDREN, CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND MASS GRAVES.

WE ARE FIGHTING FOR PEACE.

THERE IS NO ANSWER IN THE WHOLE WORLD HOW TO STOP PUTIN FROM THIS.

>> YOU SAID IN PART OF YOUR ACCEPTANCE PEACE, THAT JUSTICE SHOULD NOT DEPEND ON THE RELIANCE OF AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES.

EXPLAIN THAT.

HOW DO WE DEVELOP A LEGAL INFRASTRUCTURE?

>> OH, YES, IT'S A PROBLEM THAT WE STILL LOOK TO THE WORLD, THROUGH THE LENS OF THE TRIALS.

IT WAS, NAZI CRIMINALS WENT RIGHT ONLY AFTER THE NAZI REGIME HAD COLLAPSED.

NOW WHEN I MEET WITH PRESIDENTS, PARLIAMENTS, I OFTEN HEAR, WHEN YOU WIN, YOU WILL HAVE JUSTICE.

BUT WE LIVE IN NEW CENTURY.

JUSTICE CAN'T WAIT.

JUSTICE MUST BE INDEPENDENT.

WHEN AND HOW THE WAR WILL END.

WE HAVE TO PUNISH THE LEADERS REGARDLESS OF THE RESULTS.

THIS IS OUR TASK IN THE 21st CENTURY AS A HUMAN KIND.

SO THIS IS MY MAIN MESSAGE.

>> WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A CONVERSATION THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

CONGRESS IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT FOR ITS OWN DOMESTIC REGIONS, IT'S TAKEN QUITE SOME TIME TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER IT WANTS TO GIVE MONEY TO UKRAINE.

YOU RECENTLY SAID THAT THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES MUST GIVE UKRAINE EVERYTHING IT NEEDS TO REPEL RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

IF WE HESITATE FOR TOO LONG, RUSSIA WILL TAKE MORE STEPS FORWARD AND DEVELOP DEMOCRACIES MAY BE FORCED TO FAYE PRICE WITH THE LIVES OF THEIR OWN CITIZENS.

EXPLAIN.

>> RUSSIA IS EMPIRE.

EMPIRE HAS A CENTER BUT NO BORDER.

IT MEANS IF THEY DO NOT BE ABLE TO STOP PUTIN IN UKRAINE, HE WILL GO SHOW THEM AND WILL ATTACK THE NEXT COUNTRY.

NOW, THEY DISCUSS ON RUSSIAN TV PUBLICLY, WHAT IS THE NEXT COUNTRY?

ESTONIA OR POLAND?

THAT MEANS IF IT HAPPENS, IF PUTIN IS SUCCEEDING IN UKRAINE, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL HAVE TO SEND THEIR PEOPLE TO DEFEND FREEDOM IN EUROPE.

THIS MEANS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL PAY THE HIGHEST PRICE.

>> THE ORGANIZATION THAT YOU WORK WITH, THE CENTER FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES, JUST THIS WEEK THE RUSSIAN MINISTRY HAS DECLARED THAT ORGANIZATION, WHAT THEY CALL UNDESIRABLE.

YOUR GROUP AND TWO OTHER HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

DOES THIS MEAN THAT YOU ARE FUNCTIONALLY UNABLE TO WORK IN RUSSIA?

>> WE WORK IN RUSSIA WITH THE HANDS OF OUR BRIEF HUMAN RIGHTS COLLEAGUES.

NOW WE HAVE A DISCUSSION TO WORK MORE SECRETLY, NOT TO PUT OUR RUSSIAN COLLEAGUE IN ADDITIONAL DANGER.

HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION IN RUSSIA IS CLOSE THE.

PART OF THEM ARE FORCED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

TWO MONTHS AGO MY FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE, 71-YEAR-OLD OLEK, THE HEAD OF HUMAN RIGHTS CENTER, WAS JAILED.

BUT WHAT I WANT TO EMPHASIZE, WHEN I ASK MY HUMAN RIGHTS COLLEAGUES IN RUSSIA HOW WE CAN HELP.

BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A VERY VULNERABLE SITUATION.

YOU FACE NOT ONLY THE PUTIN REGIME BUT THE MAJORITY OF THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE WHO UNFORTUNATELY SUPPORT THIS.

WHAT THEY CAN DO FOR YOU.

THEY ALWAYS RESPONDED, IF YOU WANT THE HELP US, PLEASE, BE SUCCESSFUL.

ONLY SUCCESS OF UKRAINE AND MILITARY DEFEAT OF RUSSIA PROVIDE A CHANCE FOR DEMOCRATIC FUTURE OF RUSSIA ITSELF.

IT'S A LUCKS RIVER TO HAVE A CHANCE.

>> LAST YEAR THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUED AN ARREST WARRANT FOR RUSSIAN PRESIDENT PUTIN ACCUSING HIM AND TRYING TO HOLD HIM RESPONSIBLE FOR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ABDUCTIONS OF CHILDREN FROM UKRAINE.

AND I WONDERED, WHAT SHOULD THE REST OF THE WORLD DO WHEN THE THIRD PARTY LIKE THE ICC SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

>> IF POLITICIANS PUT THEIR DECISION AND MAKE THEIR DECISION ON THE ECONOMIC INTERESTS OR POLITICAL INTERESTS OR SECURITY CONCERNS, AND DON'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE VALUES OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, EVEN IF SUCH POLITICIANS WILL BENEFIT IN SHORT TERM, WE WILL EVADE CATASTROPHE IN LONG TERM.

WE HAVE TO RETURN VALUES INTO POLITICS.

IT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE ALL THE SITUATION WHICH WE HAVE IN THE CURRENT MOMENT, IT IS A RESULT OF SUCH IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR.

WE WERE TOLD THAT RUSSIA SECURED THEIR, THEY KILLED THEIR OWN JOURNALISTS.

RUSSIA COMMITS HORRIBLE CRIMES IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD.

BUT WELL DEVELOPED DEMOCRACIES AND POLITICIANS CLOSE THEIR EYES TO THIS FACT.

THEY CONTINUE TO DO BUSINESS AS USUAL WITH RUSSIA, SHAKING PUTIN'S HAND.

AND THIS MAKES THE SITUATION, RUSSIA STARTS TO THINK THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

AND THAT'S WHY THIS ARREST WARRANT WITH THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT IS SO IMPORTANT.

IT SHOWS TO THE POLITICIANS THAT PUTIN IS OFFICIAL LY RECOGNIZED AS THE BIGGEST KIDNAPPER IN THE WORLD.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE ARE HUMANS.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS WHICH HAVE NO LIMITATIONS ON NATIONAL BORDERS.

SOLIDARITY IS ONE OF SUCH THINGS.

WE NEED MORE BRAVERY AND MORE HONESTY IN EXTERNAL POLICY OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

BECAUSE WE ARE VERY INTERCONNECTED.

>> ARE YOU CONCERNED THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN UKRAINE AND VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY HAS POSTPONE THAT HAD AND SAID, WE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON THE WAR RIGHT NOW?

ON THE ONE HAND, HE IS VOCIFEROUS ABOUT PRESERVING DEMOCRACY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU SEE HIM POSTPONING WHAT IS A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

IS THERE AN ASSURANCE SOMEWHERE THAT THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE HAVE THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE WAR 1st AND WE CAN EITHER ELECT HIM OUT OF POWER OR WE'LL ELECTED HIM TO STAY?

>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS TO CALL THE CONSTITUTION OF UKRAINE AND IT PROHIBITS AN ELECTION DURING THE WAR TIME.

LIKE MANY OTHER CONSTITUTIONS IN THE WORLD.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PRACTICAL PROBLEMS WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED.

HOW TO PROVIDE FOR 7.5 MILLION PEOPLE.

WHERE WE CAN FIND MONEY.

HOW TO SECURE THE WHOLE ELECTORAL PROCESS WHEN EVEN INTERNATIONAL OBSERVERS WILL NOT GO TO DO THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.

HOW TO PROVIDE OPPORTUNITIES AND SECURE THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE IN TRENCHES?

THE MOST ACTIVE PART OF UKRAINIAN SOCIETY IS IN THE ARMED FORCES.

SO A LOT OF PRACTICAL PROBLEMS WHICH HAVE TO BE SOLVED.

BUT WHY I'M LOOKING OPTIMISTIC, EVEN DURING THIS DIFFICULT TIME FOR UKRAINIAN EXISTENCE, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT WHEN YOU OPEN THIS, UKRAINIANS WERE ASKED, WHAT IS THE MAIN VALUE FOR YOU?

THEY ALWAYS PUT FREEDOM ON THE FIRST PLACE.

>> 2022, NOBEL LAUREATE OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> AS WAR WAGES ON IN HOT SPOTS AROUND THE GLOBE, IT IS IMPORTANT WE DON'T FORGET HUMANITY'S SHARED CRISIS.

THAT IS CLIMATE CHANGE.

FROM HISTORIC AND CATASTROPHIC FLOODING IN DAB EYE THIS WEEK TO REPORTS OF WIDESPREAD CORAL BLEACHING AND SEA TEMPERATURES.

ALARM BELLS ARE RINGING LOUD AND CLEAR.

AS WE MARK EARTH DAY NEXT MONDAY, WE'RE REMINDED OF THE URGENCY.

THERE IS STILL SOME ROOM FOR HOPE.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO BILL WEIR.

THE CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT HAD A HAS SPENT YEARS COVERING THIS.

HIS BOOK "LIFE AS WE KNOW IT CAN BE."

HERE'S THE CONVERSATION.

>> BILL WEIR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO GIVE PEOPLE HOPE AND TO FOCUS ON THINGS THAT GO RIGHT.

SO AS I AM, YOU'VE BEEN COVERING IT FOR SO LONG.

WHAT NOW GIVES YOU HOPE?

>> WELL, WHAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THAT WE ARE REALLY JUST MADE OF STORIES.

EVERYTHING IN OUR LIVES ARE STORIES WE AGREE ON IN THE MOMENT AND THEY ARE UNDER CONSTANT REVISION.

WE ARE GOING THROUGH AN INVISIBLE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION RIGHT NOW AS THE WORLD ELECTRIFIES TEXAS, MAYBE THE REDDEST STATE IN THE UNITED STATES, LEADS THE COUNTRY IN GREEN ENERGY.

WAY MORE THAN CALIFORNIA AND FLORIDA.

THE ECONOMICS JUST MAKE SENSE.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY, OUR CHEAPEST FUEL ARE NOT THE ONES WE HAVE TO BURN.

THEY ARE NOW SOLAR PLUS BATTERY AND ONSHORE WIND.

AND THE ECONOMICS ARE TRUMPING THE IDEOLOGY AND SORT OF THE POLITICAL RESISTANCE IN PLACES LIKE TEXAS.

SO IN THIS BOOK, I'M TRYING TO IMPART TO MY KIDS A WARNING ABOUT THE WORLD WE BUILT FOR THEM BY MISTAKE BUT ALL THE DOERS AND DREAMERS AND HELPERS WHO ARE TRYING TO FIND A BETTER FUTURE FOR EVERYBODY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR KIDS AND DEDICATING THIS BOOK TO THEM.

IN THE BOOK, APOLOGIZING FOR OUR FAILURE.

YOU SAY NONE OF THIS YOU JUST THAT, THE SUCCESSES, THE MAXT, WOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT YOUNG PEOPLE.

>> EXACTLY.

IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT GRETTA THUNBERG, ONE YOUNG PERSON WHO DECIDED TO SKIP SCHOOL FOR THIS.

THAT CAUGHT THE IMAGINATION OF HER PEERS AROUND THE WORLD.

AND ONE.

PLUS SIGNS OF SOCIAL MEDIA, IT CAN CREATE COMMUNITY.

THEN WHEN THEY WENT OUT INTO THE STREETS AND CAMPED OUT IN THE HALLS OF THE SENATE AND CONGRESS AND SHOUTED DOWN THE CORRIDORS OF POWER, ABSOLUTELY HELPED MOVE THE FEEDLE.

THE MOST AMBITIOUS CLIMATE LEGISLATION.

NOT ONLY HERE BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

WE CAN ARGUE OVER THE STRENGTH AND WEAKNESSES OF POLICY BUT THOSE KIDS DESERVE SOME CREDIT.

>> NOT JUST YOUNG PEOPLE BUT OLD PEOPLE.

ELDERLY PEOPLE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE SUCCESS IN UPPER.

TELL SWISS GRANNIES TAKING THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS AND WINNING.

>> EXACTLY.

THAT'S THE OTHER END OF IT.

THEY WANT THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO A HEALTHFUL ENVIRONMENT.

THERE ARE DOZENS OF CASES WHERE MUNICIPALITIES AND STATES AND TRIBES ARE SUING FOR LYING TO THE PUBLIC FOR GENERATIONS ABOUT THE HARM THEY KNEW THAT THEIR PRODUCT WOULD CAUSE.

IT IS THOSE GRANNIES TURNING THEIR ANXIETY INTO ACTION IN A PEACEFUL, SYSTEMATIC WAY.

WE'LL SEE IF THAT CATCHES FIRE.

ULTIMATELY, CHRISTIANE, THEY'RE UP AGAINST THE RICHEST COMPANY IN HUMAN HISTORY WHO NOT ONLY ARE ENJOYING THE BIGGEST PROFITS IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

THE SOCIAL LICENSE OF OUR LIVES.

PEOPLE DON'T PICKETT GAS STATIONS.

THEY COULD SHIFT THEIR BUSINESS MODEL TO A MORE SUSTAINABLE DIRECTION AS SOME IN EUROPE HAVE DONE.

YOU CAN FIT THESE GUYS IN A FEW BIG BUSES.

SO WHILE IT IS IMPORTANT, I THINK, FOR OUR KIDS AND OUR FAMILIES TO UNDERSTAND EACH DECISION HAS A COST, THE DECISION MAKERS NOW MORE THAN EVER ARE THE ONES WHO WILL MOVE THE NEEDLE.

>> INDEED.

THAT MEANS IT IS NOT JUST INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS, GOOD CITIZENS, RECYCLING AND MAYBE CUTTING DOWN ON MEAT AND DOING EVERYTHING THEY POSSIBLY CAN.

IT DOES TAKE, AS YOU SAY, THESE CORPORATIONS.

I DON'T KNOW.

MAYBE A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY WAS CHALLENGED.

MAYBE YOU HAD THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY WAS CHALLENGED.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT.

TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT BEING THE CORRESPONDENT COVERING THIS.

YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS NOW.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE HOPE.

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN THAT JUST DRIVES YOU NUTS?

PARTICULARLY IN PARTISAN DIVIDES AND RELUCTANT COMMUNITIES.

>> WHAT DRIVES ME BETTER ARE PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER AND GET IN THE WAY.

FOR POWER OR PLATFORM, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.

WE DIDN'T KNOW.

WE LEARNED THE SCIENCE ALONG WITH EVERYBODY ELSE.

NOW YOU KNOW.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING NEXT?

I REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE TOGETHER DURING FUKUSHIMA AND I CUT MY TEETH ON HURRICANE KATRINA IN NEW ORLEANS AND GOT A MASTER CLASS AT THIS CLASH BETWEEN HUMAN NATURE AND NATURE.

I WAS ABLE TO GO TO THE OTHER SIDE AND VISIT THE HAPPIEST, MOST RESILIENT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET.

TO TAKE THOSE IDEAS, CAUTIONARY TALES FROM OTHER DISASTERS AND HOPEFULLY WE'RE LEARNING FROM THESE AND WE'RE ABLE TO CONNECT NOW WHEN THE SKIES ARE RELATIVELY BLUE.

THERE'S SO MUCH LEFT TO SAVE.

BUT UNDERSTAND THEY CAN'T TAKE CERTAIN THINGS FOR GRANTED LIKE WE DID, LIKE AIR, WATER, SHELTER.

>> I THINK IT IS EXTRAORDINARY THAT YOU HAVE DONE THE WHOLE SORT OF WORLD TOUR, SO TO SPEAK.

SEEING THE GREAT STUFF, THE NOT SO GREAT STUFF.

I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MESSAGING AND THE STORY TELLING.

I REMEMBER THE WONDERFUL U.N.

CLIMATE REP WHO BASICALLY SHEPHERDED THROUGH THE 2015 CLIMATE, YOU KNOW, TREATY BACK IN PARIS.

SHE WAS ALWAYS TELLING US, DON'T JUST FOCUS ON THE DOOM AND GLOOM.

YOU MUST GIVE PEOPLE HOPE AND TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE SUCCESSES.

DO YOU THINK WE DO THAT ENOUGH?

>> NO.

AND I'VE LEARNED THIS ON THE JOB AS THE CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT OF ANY NETWORK.

IT IS TEMPTING TO LEAN ON THE FEAR AND WARNING BUTTON BECAUSE THERE'S PLENTY OF REASON FOR THAT.

WE RESONATE WITH STORIES BECAUSE THERE'S AN ARC.

THERE'S ALWAYS A HOPEFUL ARC.

THE PERSON WHO TAUGHT ME THE BEST TIP FOR COVERING CLIMATE WAS MR. ROGERS WHO SAID WHEN HE SAW SOMETHING SCARY ON TV, HIS MOTHER WOULD SAY LOOK FOR THE HELPERS.

THERE ARE ALWAYS HELPERS RUSHING INTO DISASTERS.

SO I GET TO MEET THOSE WHO ARE BUILDING THERMAL BATTERY PLANTS OR NATURE-BASED SOLUTIONS TO PULL CARBON OUT OF THE SEA AND SKY.

AND THEY'RE IMAGINING A BETTER WORLD FOR THEIR KIDS.

IT THE MORE WE SHARE THAT, IT IS A DOUBLE-EDGED COIN.

YOU HAVE TO HOLD FEAR AND HOPE IN YOUR HAND AT THE SAME TIME.

>> SO WHAT GRADE WOULD YOU GIVE TO THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR COMING UP WITH THEIR MASSIVE POST COVID ECONOMY, REVIVALS, REALLY BASED AROUND GREEN ENERGY AND COMBATTING GLOBAL WARNING.

>> THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MOST AMBITIOUS THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, THE NONPARTISAN ACT, MORE CARROTS THAN STICKS.

BUT IT HAS UNCORKED BILLIONS IN PRIVATE INVESTMENT THAT IS NOW GOING INTO CLEAN TECH.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE UNITED STATES IS STILL THE BIGGEST IN HUMAN HISTORY EXPORTING WAY MORE GAS THAN UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

HOW DO YOU CHANGE THIS MID FLIGHT?

BIDEN WOULD SAY, THEY ARE SAYING YOU HAVE TO GIVE HIM CREDIT.

LOOK AT THE PROGRESS.

IN TERMS EUROPE, THERE IS A BACK LASH EVEN IN SOME SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES AGAINST GREEN POLICIES.

THIS IS A LONG HAUL AND WE'LL CYCLE THROUGH MOODS AND EARLY EXCITEMENT ABOUT A NEW THING.

THEN BACK LASH ABOUT HEAT PUMPS OR ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

WE WEREN'T GOING FROM THE CAR BACK TO THE HORSE.

NOW THE ADAPTATION IN SO MANY COUNTRIES, I THINK IT IS OVER 31 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD HAVE REACHED ENOUGH MARKET SATURATION.

WE'RE THERE.

IT IS MATTER OF HOW FAST AND HOW MUCH CAN BE SAVED.

AND WHETHER OR NOT WE USE ALL THIS NEW ENERGY TO BURN IN NEW WAYS WITH CRYPTOCURRENCIES OR AI COMPUTING WHICH DEVOURS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ENERGY INSTEAD OF REPLACING THE DIRTY OLD LEGACY FUELS.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

THERE'S.

SO.

WHEN I TELL THE STORIES ABOUT HEAT WAVES OR DISASTERS, I GET TO BUTTON IT UP WITH THERE'S SO MUCH GOING ON OVER HERE.

>> AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP BUTTONING IT UP.

THAT'S WITH A GIVES PEOPLE HOPE.

BILL WEIR, OUR CORRESPONDENT, AND AUTHOR OF LIFE AS WE KNOW IT CAN BE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO IMPORTANT.

WE ALWAYS WANT TO KEEP THE HOME.

>>> AND FINALLY FOR US, THE WORLD'S BIGGEST DEMOCRACY BEGAN TO HEAD TO THE POLLS.

KICKING OFF THE FIRST PHASE OF INDIA'S MARATHON GENERAL ELECTION.

VOTING TAKES PLACE IN SEVEN PHASES OVER THE NEXT SIX WEEKS.

SIX WEEKS.

THE PLANET'S MOST POPULOUS NATION WITH NEARLY 6 BILLION PEOPLE.

THAT'S MORE THAN THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA PUT TOGETHER.

NOW, IN EASTERN INDIA, PEOPLE BRAVED CUEING IN HEAT WAVE CONDITIONS TO CAST THEIR BALLOT.

OVER 2,700 PARTIES WILL FIGHT IT OUT FOR SEATS WITH THE ELECTION RESULTS SET TO BE ANNOUNCED ON JUNE 4th.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO COVER THIS OVER THE NEXT SIX WEEKS.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.