>> I AM KATIE LANNON IN FOR ADAM REILLY.

SHOTSPOTTER DEVICES LISTEN FOR GUNSHOTS AND TRIGGER POLICE RESPONSES IN BOSTON AND ACROSS MASSACHUSETTS, BUT A NEW ACLU REPORT FINDS THE TECHNOLOGY GETS IT WRONG MORE OFTEN THAN NOT.

I WILL TALK TO A REPRESENTATIVE OF ACLU AND THE COMPANY.

IT’S BEEN JUST OVER A YEAR SINCE PHILIP ENG TOOK OVER MBTA.

FEDERAL SCRUTINY AFTER A LONG STRING OF ACCIDENTS INCLUDING MULTIPLE DEATHS.

HE QUICKLY LAUNCHED A MAJOR REPAIR PROJECTS AND TEMPORARY SHUTDOWNS.

HAS HE MANAGED TO GET THE T BACK ON TRACK?

BOB LED A FORUM WITH TRANSPORTATION OFFICIALS AND ADVOCATES INCLUDING JARED JOHNSON.

THINGS FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

THAT -- THANKS FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

YOU HAD THE CHANCE TO SIT DOWN WITH THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THE TEA.

WHAT WERE YOUR TAKEAWAYS?

>> IT’S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO REALIZE THAT MR. ENG IS THE FIRST EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL TRANSIT ADMINISTRATOR WE HAVE HAD IN YEARS TO RUN THE MBTA.

THERE IS AN OPENNESS.

HE TALKED A LOT ABOUT COMMUNICATION.

IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR THE T TO BE COMMUNICATING WITH PEOPLE.

CERTAINLY THERE ARE STILL LOTS OF PROBLEMS THAT HE WILL ACKNOWLEDGE HAVE TO BE FIXED, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL HE’S THE RIGHT GUY AT THE RIGHT TIME TO TRY TO FIX THE T. KATIE: THERE’S BEEN A LOT OF ENTHUSIASM FROM PEOPLE IN THE TRANSIT SPACE ABOUT HAVING PHIL ENG IN THIS ROLE.

HAVE YOU SEEN A DIFFERENCE FROM PAST LEADERSHIP?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE NOTICED REALLY ACUTELY LAST OCTOBER WHEN THE T HAD ONE OF THE MOST MAJOR SHUTDOWNS ON THE REDLINE AND IT WAS A STARK CONTRAST FROM HOW THINGS WENT WHEN THE ORANGE LINE GOT SHUT DOWN.

WE SAW THE TRACK WORK ACTUALLY BEAR FRUIT AND WE SAW THAT THEY WERE ASKING SOME OF THE RIGHT QUESTIONS LIKE, WHY ARE WE SAYING THE TRACK NEEDS A WEEK?

WE CAN JUST BRING IN EQUIPMENT TO DO THAT AND BRING THE SPEEDS UP THE FIRST DAY THE SERVICE RETURNS.

SO WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY SEEN A MARKED CHANGE.

WHETHER IT’S TRANSPARENCY OR COMMUNICATION, THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ENG AND SOME OF HIS PREDECESSORS.

KATIE: YOU ASKED PHILIP AND -- PHILIP ENG WHY HE WANTED TO BE ON THIS JOB.

>> I’VE ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK YOU WHETHER SOME MORNINGS YOU WAKE UP AND WONDER HOW YOU GOT YOURSELF INTO THIS SITUATION.

>> I WANTED TO COME.

WHEN YOU SEE THE NEEDS.

WHEN WE DON’T DO WHAT WE SAY WE ARE GOING TO DO, THAT IS WHY PEOPLE GET FRUSTRATED.

WE MAKE AN IMPACT ON PEOPLE’S LIVES AND WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE A POSITIVE IMPACT AND I KNOW WE CAN.

KATIE: WHAT KIND OF IMPACT HAS THERE BEEN SINCE HE HAS BEEN ON THE JOB?

BOB: IT’S REFRESHING TO HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE PHIL ENG ON THE JOB.

HE SPEAKS OPENLY ABOUT THE CHALLENGES BUT HE HAS A SYSTEMATIC WAY OF ADDRESSING PROBLEMS.

THE TRACK IMPROVEMENT WAS IN CHAOS AND THE TEA WAS MOSTLY REACTING TO EMERGENCIES.

HE ACTUALLY CAME UP WITH A PLAN ALMOST OF REBUILDING THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

THAT’S HOW BIG THE PROBLEM IS.

BUT AT LEAST HE HAS A PLAN AND HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO TELL PEOPLE MONTHS IN ADVANCE WHAT THEY CAN EXPECT AND THAT CERTAINLY IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT IT USED TO BE.

KATIE: THIS IS A BIG JOB, CERTAINLY A DAUNTING TASK TO BE HEAD OF THE MBTA AT A TIME OF ALL THESE CHALLENGES.

I WANT TO LOOK BACK TO WHEN ENG FIRST TOOK ON THE ROLE.

WE HAD DUG MOST -- DOUG MOST.

HERE’S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY WHEN PHILIP AND -- PHILIP ENG FIRST TOOK THE JOB.

>> BOSTON HAS GONE THROUGH SEVERAL BOXES OF BAND-AIDS.

TRYING TO FIX A BROKEN SYSTEM.

HE WILL MAKE SOME CARS BETTER AND MAYBE A FEW TRACKS, BUT BOSTONIANS ARE HUNGRY FOR BIGGER CHANGES THAN THAT AND THAT’S GOING TO REQUIRE REAL INVESTMENT.

KATIE: WHERE ARE WE IN TERMS OF THAT INVESTMENT?

IS THE STATE PUTTING IN THE RESOURCES NEEDED?

JARED: THEY ARE STARTING TO.

I THINK WHETHER IT’S THE GOVERNOR’S BUDGET WHICH ADDED A LOT MORE INTO THE OPERATING BUDGET AND THE HOUSE BUDGET WHICH INCREASED IT FURTHER, WE ARE STARTING TO SEE THAT.

BUT THE T TALKED ABOUT THEIR UPCOMING CAPITAL BUDGET AND IN ORDER TO DO THE IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM, THEY HAD TO TAKE MONEY FROM OTHER PROJECTS INCLUDING A BUS FACILITY THAT SERVED 60% OF AUSTIN.

THERE ARE STILL REAL NEEDS IN THE WORK THE GENERAL MANAGER IS DOING IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

BUT IT MEANS IF WE WANT TO CONTINUE WITH SOME OF THE MODERNIZATION PROJECTS OR EXPANSION PROJECTS, THERE’S GOING TO NEED TO BE A LOT MORE INVESTMENT AND MONEY.

KATIE: OF THE HOUSE BUDGET IS UP FOR DEBATE NEXT WEEK.

HOUSE LEADERS ARE PROPOSING TO PUT A RECORD AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT INTO THE MBTA.

THE T IS STILL LOOKING AHEAD TO FISCAL YEAR 2026, A POSSIBLE DEFICIT.

WE HAVE ALL THESE SAFETY AND RELIABILITY IMPROVE ONE’S, PLANS TO ROLL OUT A LOW INCOME FAIR PROGRAM.

-- FARE PROGRAM.

HOW DID THEY DO THIS?

BOB: THE GOVERNMENT APPROVED A SPECIAL TASK FORCE.

TO LOOK INTO LONG TERM SUSTAINABLE FUNDING FOR THE TWO.

-- THE T. IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE NEEDED FOR YEARS.

IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT THEY COME UP WITH AT THE END OF THIS YEAR.

THERE’S A LOT OF OPTIONS.

POLITICALLY WHAT’S POSSIBLE IS ANOTHER SITUATION.

I NOTICE THE GOVERNOR TALKED ABOUT BORDER TOLLS.

PUTTING TOLLS AT THE BORDER OF MASSACHUSETTS AND OTHER STATES.

I’M NOT SURE THAT WOULD WORK THAT WELL.

WE WOULD FIND OURSELVES HAVING TO PAY TO GO TO RHODE ISLAND.

THEY WILL NEED EVERYTHING IN ORDER TO FUND THIS PROJECT.

KATIE: THIS TRANSPORTATION FINANCING IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN VEXING TO BEACON HILL FOR YEARS.

BEFORE COVID TOOK HOLD IN 2020, THE HOUSE WAS LOOKING AT SOMETHING TO GET MORE FUNDING FOR TRANSPORTATION AND MASSACHUSETTS.

HOW OPTIMISTIC ARE YOU THAT THIS TASK FORCE AND OTHER EFFORTS WILL YIELD RESULTS?

JARED: I’M CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC.

I THINK THE REAL ANSWER IS WE DON’T HAVE A CHOICE.

THE ECONOMIC ENGINE THAT DRIVES THE ENTIRE COMMONWEALTH IS THE GREATER BOSTON ECONOMY AND THAT RELIES REALLY HEAVILY ON THE MBTA.

WE HAVE SEEN FROM GOING TO BEING THE THIRD HIGHEST TO NUMBER ONE AND SOME RANKINGS.

IT REALLY IS CRITICAL.

WHETHER IT’S THE TRAFFIC ANGLE, THE ECONOMIC ANGLE.

WE JUST HAVE SO MUCH RIDING ON THE T THAT WE DON’T HAVE A CHOICE.

YOU HAVE MUNICIPALITIES, BUSINESS LEADERS, ADVOCATES, NOT JUST TRANSPORTATION ADVOCATES BUT ACROSS A WIDE SWATH OF DIFFERENT FOCUS AREAS: FOR INVESTMENT AND FOR -- CALLING FOR INVESTMENT IN THE T AND FOR THE T TO BE BETTER.

HOPEFULLY THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR WILL HAVE THE SUPPORT THEY NEED TO EMBRACE SOME OF THOSE BOLD BUT SOMETIMES POLITICALLY TRICKY OPTIONS WE NEED TO HAVE ON THE TABLE.

KATIE: THE INTERRELATION BETWEEN HOUSING AND TRANSIT AND ALL THESE OTHER ISSUES, I’M GOING TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP FROM THE FORUM.

>> TRANSPORTATION HAS A HOUSING PROBLEM AND IT REALLY IS.

WE BRING DOWN THE COST OF HOUSING.

I CAN GET PEOPLE CLOSER IN AND GET THEM OFF THE ROAD FOR THESE ENTIRE JOURNEYS.

IF I CAN GET ENOUGH MONEY FOR THE T AND BRING DOWN THE COST OF THE COMMUTER RAIL, YOU WILL SEE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE GETTING OUT OF THEIR CARS.

IF YOU CANNOT ADDRESS THOSE THINGS, IT’S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO EASE THE CONGESTION UNLESS EVERYBODY’S GOING TO STAY HOME.

THIS IS A MASSIVE EQUITY ISSUE.

KATIE: TIED UP WE HAVE HOUSING, TRANSPORTATION, CLIMATE CHANGE, EQUITY.

HOW DOES A STATE GET A HANDLE ON ALL OF THIS?

>> WHEN I FIRST STARTED COVERING TRANSPORTATION, PEOPLE WOULD ASK ME WHY AND THAT’S EXACTLY WHY.

IT AFFECTS EVERYONE IN SO MANY WAYS.

YOU DON’T EVEN REALIZE IT.

WHETHER YOU TAKE THE T OR NOT IT AFFECTS YOU.

AND IT’S ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE MONEY BEING INVESTED IS BEING SPENT WISELY.

IF HE CAN CONVINCE LEGISLATORS, IT WILL BE EASIER TO GET THE MONEY HE NEEDS TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.

IN THE PAST IT HASN’T BEEN THAT WAY.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF SKEPTICISM ABOUT WHETHER SPENDING MONEY ON THE T IS WORTH IT.

IF HE CAN ACCOMPLISH WHAT HE SAYS HE INTENDS TO DO, THAT WILL REALLY HELP POLITICALLY IN THE FUTURE TO GET THE MONEY.

THERE’S NO QUESTION, THERE IS A BIG BILL COMING DUE FOR A LOT OF THINGS, BUT ESPECIALLY TRANSPORTATION.

KATIE: ALLOWED TO WATCH IN THE BUDGET AND BEYOND.

BOB AND JARED, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

BOB’S FULL CONVERSATION WITH JARED, PHILIP -- PHILIP ENG WILL BE SOON AVAILABLE ALONG WITH THOUSANDS OF OTHER LECTURES, TALKS AND INTERVIEWS WITH SOME OF THE WORLD’S FOREMOST SCHOLARS AND COMMUNITY LEADERS.

POLICE IN CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY INCLUDING AUSTIN USE SHOTSPOTTER DEVICES TO DETECT AND RESPOND TO GUNSHOTS BEFORE A 911 CALL IS EVEN MADE.

OR AT LEAST THAT’S THE IDEA.

BUT THE DEVICES GET IT WRONG A LOT ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT FROM THE ACLU OF MASSACHUSETTS.

NEARLY 70% OF ALL SHOTSPOTTER ALERTS IN BOSTON LED TO DEAD ENDS.

NOW THE ACLU IS URGING CITY LEADERS TO END THESE PROGRAMS.

I’M JOINED BY THE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF MASSACHUSETTS TECHNOLOGY FOR LIBERTY PROJECT, AND TOM FROM THE COMPANY FOR SHOTSPOTTER.

FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN’T FAMILIAR WITH SHOTSPOTTER, WHAT IS IT, HOW DOES IT WORK AND WHY DO YOU SEE IT AS A GOOD TECHNOLOGY FOR PLACES LIKE BOSTON?

>> IF YOU DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE, YOU MIGHT ASSUME THE SYSTEM IS POWERED BY MAGIC.

IT’S MATH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

WE MEASURE THE ARRIVAL OF SOUND AND DIFFERENT SENSORS TO CALCULATE WHERE THE SOUND OF GUNFIRE ORIGINATED FROM SO WE CAN NOTIFY POLICE OF SHOOTINGS QUICKLY SO THEY CAN RESPOND TO AND RENDER AID TO GUNSHOT VICTIMS SO THEY CAN LOCATE OFFENDERS, COLLECT VALUABLE BALLISTIC EVIDENCE LEFT BEHIND AT MANY SHOOTINGS, AND REASSURE THE COMMUNITY THAT WHEN GUNFIRE HAPPENS IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD, POLICE WILL RESPOND TO IT.

KATIE: THE ACLU LOOKED AT OVER A THOUSAND BPD DOCUMENTS RELATED TO SHOTSPOTTER.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> WE ASKED THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR RECORDS DOCUMENTING INCIDENTS IN WHICH POLICE RESPONDED TO SHOTSPOTTER ALERTS BETWEEN 2020 AND 2022 AND WE GOT 1300 RECORDS IN RESPONSE TO THAT REQUEST.

WE CAREFULLY ANALYZED THOSE RECORDS AND FOUND THAT IN ALMOST 70% OF CASES, WHEN POLICE IN BOSTON WERE DEPLOYED TO AN AREA IN RESPONSE TO A SHOTSPOTTER ALERT, THEY FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF GUNFIRE.

THAT MEANS NO WITNESSES, NO VICTIMS, NO SUSPECTS, NO SHELL CASINGS, NO BULLET HOLES.

NOTHING OF THE SORT.

KATIE: WE HAVE A CHART FROM THE REPORT SHOWING THAT ALMOST 70% OF ALERTS RESULT IN NO EVIDENCE OF GUNFIRE.

THAT ALSO SHOWED THAT 16% OF ALERTS WERE FROM OTHER KINDS OF SOUNDS.

IS THIS HOW YOU THINK OF THE ACCURACY OF THE SYSTEM?

>> I THINK THAT’S MISLEADING.

WE MEASURE THE ACCURACY OF OUR SYSTEM ACROSS ALL OF OUR CUSTOMERS.

OF COURSE WE TAKE OUR ACCURACY SERIOUSLY BECAUSE THEY DEPEND ON US.

WHAT WE KNOW FROM MEASURING OUR INCIDENTS ACROSS MILLIONS OF INCIDENTS AND MORE THAN 170 CUSTOMERS IS WE GET IT RIGHT ABOUT 97% OF THE TIME.

JUST BECAUSE POLICE DON’T LOCATE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF A SHOOTING IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT IS SHOOTING DID NOT OCCUR.

I ALSO THINK IT’S MISLEADING TO FOCUS ON PERCENTAGES.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NOMINAL NUMBERS, THAT MEANS HUNDREDS OF TIMES, SHOTSPOTTER HAS NOTIFIED POLICE OF SHOOTING INCIDENTS.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THERE IS CHRONIC UNDERREPORTING OF GUNFIRE IN MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES MOST AFFLICTED BY, WHICH MEANS THERE ARE LOTS OF MISSED OPPORTUNITIES FOR POLICE TO RENDER AID TO VICTIMS, INVESTIGATE CRIMES AND HAVE LOW FRICTION CONTACT WITH THE CITIZENS THAT LIVE THERE, TO REASSURE THEM THAT THE POLICE DO CARE ABOUT THEM, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABANDONED.

IF YOU LOOK AT HEADLINES ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND REMOVE THOSE PIECES THAT ARE OPINION PIECES, WHAT YOU SEE ARE THE FACTS.

THAT IS THAT SHOTSPOTTER WORKS.

WE ARE LOCATING GUNFIRE, LEAVING POLICE TO CRIME SCENES.

WE ARE NOT SIMPLY GETTING LUCKY.

THE TECHNOLOGY REALLY WORKS.

KATIE: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE IDEA THAT WITHOUT LOOKING AT PERCENTAGES, THESE ARE GUNSHOTS AND INJURIES THAT MIGHT NOT BE REPORTED OTHERWISE?

>> THE RECORDS THAT WE REVIEWED AS YOU SAID INDICATE THAT 16% OF THOSE CASES WERE ACTUALLY JUST OTHER LOUD NOISES.

IN FACT ONE OF THEM WAS REALLY DISTURBING WAS A PIÑATA AT A BIRTHDAY PARTY.

WHEN IT FINALLY BURST, IT MADE A LOUD NOISE THAT WAS LOUD ENOUGH TO FOOL SHOTSPOTTER’S TECHNOLOGY AND THEIR STAFF OF HUMAN REPORTERS.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO GET INTO THAT AS WELL.

INTO THINKING IT WAS A GUNSHOT AND NOT A PIÑATA.

LOTS OF SOUNDS CAN TRIGGER ALERTS.

CARS FIRING, CONSTRUCTION NOISES.

THERE ARE A LOT OF LOUD NOISES IN AN URBAN ENVIRONMENT THAT CAN TRIGGER SHOTSPOTTER ALERTS, PARTICULARLY FIREWORKS.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS SHOTSPOTTER HAS A FIREWORKS SUPPRESSION MODE THAT THE COMPANY ENGAGES ON HOLIDAYS LIKE JULY 4 BECAUSE IT’S ACTUALLY NOT POSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN LOUD NOISES LIKE FIREWORKS AND GUNSHOTS AND FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO LIVE IN BOSTON AS I DO IN FACT I LIVE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE SHOTSPOTTER IS USED, THE SUMMER IS ONE LONG FIREWORKS SUPPRESSION MODE.

THERE ARE FIREWORKS PRETTY MUCH EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK CONSTANTLY IN THE SUMMERTIME IN BOSTON.

THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THIS TECHNOLOGY IS PRETTY SPECIOUS.

I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT TO FOCUS ON THE 30% FIGURE AS MUCH AS ON THE 70% FIGURE OF CASES WHERE THE POLICE FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF GUNSHOTS.

I HAVE SEEN COMMENTS OF PEOPLE ASSUMING THAT IN THOSE 30% OF CASES, POLICE WERE DISPATCHED TO THE SCENE, FOUND A SUSPECT, ARRESTED THE PERSON, CASE CLOSED LIKE A KIND OF NCIS STYLE INVESTIGATION WRAPPED UP BECAUSE OF THIS SUPPOSEDLY ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY.

BUT ALL THAT WE FOUND IN THOSE 30% OF CASES IS THAT POLICE FOUND SOME EVIDENCE OF GUNFIRE.

THAT DOESN’T INDICATE THAT SHOTSPOTTER LED POLICE TO A SHOOTING VICTIM OR THAT SHOTSPOTTER LED POLICE TO A SHOOTING SUSPECT.

IT MERELY INDICATES THAT MAYBE IN SOME OF THOSE CASES POLICE ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, INTERVIEWED PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND SOMEBODY SAID, I HEARD A GUNSHOT.

KATIE: WHAT DOES HAPPEN WHEN SHOTSPOTTER IDENTIFIES A GUNSHOT?

HOW DOES IT WORK?

I UNDERSTAND THE TECHNOLOGY IS GOING TO BE COMPLICATED, BUT WHAT HAPPENS AND WHEN A POLICE IS ALERTED?

>> IT’S NOT TRUE THAT WE CAN’T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN GUNFIRE AND FIREWORKS.

WE CONTINUE TO REVIEW ALERTS ON FOURTH OF JULY AND NEW YEAR’S EVE.

WE NOTIFY OUR CUSTOMERS OF GUNFIRE.

JUST THIS LAST NEW YEAR’S EVE WE LEAD THEM TO MANY ACTUAL SHOOTING INCIDENTS.

WHAT HAPPENS IS SHOTSPOTTER CAN’T TELL YOU THE WHO OF GUNFIRE.

WE CAN TELL YOU THE WHAT, WHEN AND WHERE.

SOMETIMES WE CAN EVEN TELL YOU THE HOW.

WE HAVE DOCUMENTED A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE USE OF ILLEGAL MACHINE GUNS TO COMMIT CRIMES.

BUT THEN IT’S UP TO THE POLICE TO INVESTIGATE WHAT HAPPENS.

LIKE ANY TOOL, SHOTSPOTTER IS MORE EFFECTIVE DEPENDING ON HOW YOU USE IT.

WE GO THROUGH SEVERAL STEPS TO DISTINGUISH GUNFIRE FROM NOT GUNFIRE.

WE HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED HERE IN THE BOSTON AREA SINCE 2007.

THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE PROCESSES WE USE HAVE EVOLVED SIGNIFICANTLY.

TO THE EXTENT THAT SOME OF THOSE MISTAKES MAY HAVE OCCURRED IN THE PAST AND I DON’T KNOW THAT THEY HAVE, WE ARE NOT MAKING MISTAKES LIKE THAT TODAY.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WE ARE VERY OFTEN LEADING POLICE CRIME SCENES.

JUST LAST MONTH IN DORCHESTER, WE LED POLICE TO A SHOOTING SCENE WHERE THEY LOCATED A GUNSHOT VICTIM AND SUBSEQUENT INVESTIGATION LED TO AN ARREST FOR IT.

LAST YEAR IN DORCHESTER, WE LOCATED AN ALERT POLICE TO A MASS SHOOTING THAT INVOLVED FIVE VICTIMS INCLUDING TWO KIDS.

THIS IS BENEFICIAL TO THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

IT HELPS THEM GET THE POLICE SERVICES THEY DESERVE.

KATIE: YOU MENTIONED DORCHESTER.

THE ACLU HAD SOME FINDINGS THAT A LOT OF THE SHOTSPOTTER SENSORS IN BOSTON ARE LOCATED IN DORCHESTER, ROXBURY, PLACES WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

>> THEY ARE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

NOT JUST IN BOSTON BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SHOTSPOTTER WILL SAY THAT’S BECAUSE WHERE GUN VIOLENCE IS LOCATED.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT GUN VIOLENCE IS LOCATED IN PARTICULAR NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

THERE’S ALSO NO QUESTION THAT IT’S A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE FOR PARTICULAR COMMUNITIES IN THE CITY OF BOSTON AND IT IS OUR VIEW AT THE ACLU BUT THAT IS PRECISELY WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT WE HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT TECHNOLOGY LIKE SHOTSPOTTER.

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT OPPORTUNITY NEUTRAL CONVERSATION.

IF I WERE DIAGNOSED WITH A SERIOUS ILLNESS, I WOULDN’T WANT MY DOCTOR TO PRESCRIBE HEALING CRYSTALS.

I WOULD WANT THE REAL REGIMENT OF MEDICINE THAT’S GOING TO MAKE ME BETTER.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE SOMETHING SO SERIOUS, WE REALLY OUGHT TO BE LOOKING VERY CAREFULLY AND CLOSELY AT THE EVIDENCE, NOT JUST ANECDOTAL INFORMATION, BUT DATA AND EVIDENCE ABOUT WHAT PROGRAMS WORK, WHAT REALLY WORKS TO DRIVE DOWN GUN VIOLENCE, WHAT REALLY WORKS TO HELP LAW ENFORCEMENT BUILD RELATIONSHIPS OF TRUST WITH COMMUNITIES THAT ARE IMPLICATED BY GUN VIOLENCE TO REDUCE GUN VIOLENCE, AND FRANKLY, NOT JUST HERE IN BOSTON BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE DATA THAT WE ARE SEEING ABOUT THE USE OF SHOTSPOTTER INDICATES THAT IT IS NOT A TOOL THAT REDUCES GUN VIOLENCE, THAT IT IS NOT A TOOL BUT ACROSS A LONGITUDINAL STUDY CONDUCTED BY ACADEMIC EXPERTS, A PEER-REVIEWED STUDY FOUND REDUCES GUN VIOLENCE OR INCREASES THE AMOUNT OF GUN VIOLENCE ARRESTS OR SUCCESSFUL PROSECUTIONS.

AND THAT’S TO SAY IT DOES NOT DO THOSE THINGS ACCORDING TO THE STUDY.

AT THE SAME TIME, IF WE ARE HAVING BOSTON POLICE OFFICERS RESPOND IN 70 PERCENT OF CASES TO SHOTSPOTTER ALERTS FINDING NO EVIDENCE OF GUNFIRE AT ALL, THERE IS OPPORTUNITY COST FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT WHICH NUMEROUS CITY COUNSELORS HAVE RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT HIS A STRAPS DEPARTMENT, NEEDS MORE RESOURCES AND BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

IF WE ARE SENDING DETECTIVES TO SPEND TIME THEY COULD BE USING DOING SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE TYPING OFF THE STREET CORNER IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD FOR EXAMPLE IN RESPONSE TO A SHOTSPOTTER ALERT, LOOKING FOR BALLISTICS EVIDENCE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST, THAT’S AN OPPORTUNITY COST FOR THE CITY.

IT’S OUR VIEW AT THE ACLU THAT THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS IS PRETTY CLEAR THAT THE TECHNOLOGY DOES NOT BENEFIT PUBLIC SAFETY AND ACTUALLY RAISES A LOT OF VERY SERIOUS CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES CONCERNS THAT I HOPE WE CAN GET INTO.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE A THOUSAND PERCENT INTERESTED IN HAVING A ROBUST CONVERSATION INFORMED BY EVIDENCE WITH FOLKS FROM THE ADMINISTRATION, THE BOSTON’S CITY COUNCIL, THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, SO THAT WE CAN GET MORE INFORMATION ABOUT HOW EXACTLY THE BPD USES THIS TECHNOLOGY, HOW IT IMPACTS PUBLIC SAFETY, BRING IN ACADEMIC EXPERTS TO EVALUATE THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE SEEN HERE IN BOSTON TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE SPENDING OUR MONEY, NOT JUST THE GRANT MONEY THAT IS SENT TO SHOTSPOTTER FOR THIS PROGRAM, BUT ALSO THE CITY TAXPAYER DOLLARS ARE SPENT PAYING BOSTON POLICE OFFICER SALARIES WHO ARE SPENDING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME RESPONDING TO SHOTSPOTTER ALERTS WHEN IN FACT THEY ARE NOT FINDING ANY EVIDENCE OF GUNFIRE.

KATIE: I WANT TO LET YOU RESPOND , BUT I ALSO WANT TO ASK YOU, A LOT OF THE INFORMATION WE HAVE SEEN PUBLICLY ABOUT WHERE SHOTSPOTTER SENSORS ARE LOCATED COMES FROM A WIRED INVESTIGATION INTO SOME LEAKED DATA WHICH USED SURVEY INFORMATION.

THAT INVESTIGATION FOUND THAT NEARLY 70% OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WITH AT LEAST ONE SOUND THINKING SENSOR IDENTIFIED IN THE DATA AS EITHER BLACK OR LATINE, NEARLY THREE QUARTERS OF THESE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE MAJORITY NONWHITE.

HOW DOES SOUND THINKING DECIDE WHERE TO PLACE THE SHOTSPOTTER SENSORS?

>> I THINK WE PROBABLY AGREE ON MORE THAN WE DISAGREE ON.

WE WANT TO SAFER COMMUNITIES.

WE WANT JUST POLICING, ROBUST PROTECTION FOR OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES.

I HAVE LONG ADMIRED THE ACLU AND ITS MISSION.

WHERE WE DISAGREE IS THE ROLE THAT SHOTSPOTTER AND SIMILAR TECHNOLOGIES CAN PLAY IN HELPING BRING THOSE THINGS ABOUT.

AS THEY RIGHTLY POINT OUT, GUN VIOLENCE IS NOT SPREAD EVENLY ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

IT DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTS SOME COMMUNITIES.

SO WHEN PEOPLE SAY ISN’T SHOTSPOTTER DISPROPORTIONATELY DEPLOYED, I ASK YOU, DID YOU ALSO SEARCH TO SEE WHERE GUN VICTIMS DISPROPORTIONATELY OCCUR?

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS SHOTSPOTTER IS AN PUBLIC SAFETY INFRASTRUCTURE.

PEOPLE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES DESERVE TO BE SAFE, THEY DESERVE TO HAVE EFFECTIVE POLICE RESPONSE.

WE KNOW THAT A LOT OF GUNFIRE THAT OCCURS IN THOSE COMMUNITIES IS NOT REPORTED TO POLICE FOR SOME HEARTBREAKING POLICES -- FOR SOME HEARTBREAKING REASONS.

THE FEAR OF RETALIATION.

SHOTSPOTTER NOTIFIES POLICE SO THEY CAN RESPOND.

WE DEFINITELY AGREE POLICE SHOULD BE RESPONDING IN A WAY THAT IS JUST, EFFECTIVE, RESPECTS THE RIGHTS OF LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.

AT THE SAME TIME, FAILING TO SOLVE VIOLENT CRIMES IN THESE COMMUNITIES IS ITSELF A ROOT CAUSE OF CRIME.

WE MUST HOLD VIOLENT CRIMINALS ACCOUNTABLE AND RESPECT THE PEOPLE -- PROTECT THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

>> WE TOTALLY AGREE THAT SOLVING VIOLENT CRIMES IS VERY IMPORTANT.

THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT SHOTSPOTTER DOES NOT MEANINGFULLY ADVANCE POLICE INVESTIGATIONS IN SHOOTING INCIDENTS.

THAT’S WHAT DATA SHOWS FROM LONGITUDINAL STUDIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> SO I’M FAMILIAR WITH THOSE STUDIES.

READ THEM CAREFULLY.

THEY SAY THAT SHOTSPOTTER DOES WHAT IT SAYS IT WILL DO.

IT NOTIFIES POLICE OF MORE GUNFIRE FASTER WITH GREATER PRECISION, LEADING TO RECOVERY OF GREATER EVIDENCE.

WHAT THE AUTHORS OF THOSE STUDIES SAY IS THAT THEY DON’T HAVE GREAT INSIGHT INTO THE INVESTIGATOR TO THAT OCCURS.

IF THEY DID, I THINK THAT THEY WOULD FIND IS THAT’S WHERE THE BREAKDOWN OCCURS.

THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO PROMOTE MORE OF IN LAW ENFORCEMENT GENERALLY.

EFFECTIVE FOLLOW-UP USING INTELLIGENCE TO SOLVE ACTUAL VIOLENT CRIMES.

KATIE: THAT’S THE NOTE WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO AND ON FOR TODAY AS WE CONTINUE WATCHING WHAT HAPPENS IN BOSTON.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE TONIGHT.

THAT’S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT TO COME BACK NEXT WEEK AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

THE EMAIL IS TALKING POLITICS AT WGBH.ORG AND THE WEBSITE IS GBH NEWS.ORG/TALKING POLITICS.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, GOOD NIGHT.

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