>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

AND THE SUPPORT OF THE BETTY AND THOMAS PATTER FOUNDATION.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOKS ABOUT GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

THE REGULAR CROWD IS IN THE HOUSE.

WE'LL MEET THEM IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT FIRST WANT TO TELL YOU THAT ON NEXT UP, YOU WON'T WANT TO MISS THAT BECAUSE DAVID DWIGHT FROM FORWARD THROUGH FERGUSON WILL JOIN US ALONG WITH LOCAL ATTORNEY GREG WILLARD, AN ADJUNCT PROFESSOR AT ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW.

LOTS TO DISCUSS THIS WEEK OF COURSE.

LET'S MEET THE NEWS DIRECTOR FROM THE BIG 550 KTRS NOW IN HER 26th YEAR THERE WITH THE BIG 550 AND THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

ALSO FROM THE BIG 550, MR. RAY HARTMANN.

HE'S ALSO WITH RAWSTORY.COM AND THE RIVERFRONT TIMES.

AND WE WELCOME FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN AS WELL AS THE DAVE GLOVER SHOW ON KMOX, MR. ALVIN REID.

BILL, LET'S START WITH YOU.

LAST WEEK'S GUEST ON NEXT UP, TISHAURA JONES, IS NOW KNOWN AS MAYOR TISHAURA JONES.

SHE'S SWORN IN THIS WEEK AT CITY HALL.

CONSPECKUS BY HER ABSENCE BASS THE FORMER MAYOR LYDA KREWSON WHO SAID SHE WASN'T INVITED AND THE FIRST ACT OF MAYOR JONES WAS TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON A CAMPAIGN PROMISE TO TRY TO DEFUND THE MEDIUM SECURITY WORKHOUSE ON HALL STREET.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF MAYOR TISHAURA JONES' TENURE AS MAYOR?

>> AS FAR AS THE WORKHOUSE GOES, I'VE NOT BEEN IN FAVOR OF CLOSING IT.

AT MAYOR JONES SAID ON THE SHOW LAST WEEK, IT WAS A CAMPAIGN PROMISE AND SHE'S GOING TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON IT, SO SHE D SO GOOD FOR HER.

AS FAR AS NOT INVITING THE FORMER MAYOR TO THE INAUGURATION, I WAS SORRY TO SEE THAT.

NOT JUST BECAUSE I WANT EVERYBODY TO LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, BUT IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT IF YOU'RE THE MAYOR, YOU WANT TO BE ON GOOD TERMS WITH YOUR PREDECESSOR SO THAT YOU COULD CALL HER IN AND SAY, HEY, IS THERE SOME HISTORY I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS OR I'M TRYING TO TALK TO RAY ABOUT THIS, BUT RAY JUST WON'T LISTEN TO ME, SO WENDY, WOULD YOU GO TALK TO RAY FOR ME.

THERE'S JUST TIMES WHEN MAYBE YOU CAN USE THE CONNECTIONS AND MAYBE THE KNOWLEDGE THAT A PREDECESSOR HAS.

SO I WAS SORRY TO SEE TISHAURA JONES NOT INVITE HER.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S LIKE A FORMAL THING, BUT IF JOE BIDEN COULD INVITE THE FORMER PRESIDENT TO THE INAUGURATION, THEN I THINK, YOU KNOW, TISHAURA COULD HAVE -- AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TOLD THE MAYOR KREWSON, FORMER MAYOR KREWSON THAT THE FIRST COURSE THE LUNCHEON AFTER WARS IS CROW CHIPS, SO HERE YOU GO.

I MIGHT HAVE MADE A LINE WHERE THE PREVIOUS MAYOR DIDN'T GET MUCH DONE WHILE SHE WAS JUST SITTING THERE.

I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE TAKEN A SHOT, BUT I WOULD HAVE SENT HER AN INVITATION.

>> MAYBE IT'S GOOD THAT YOU DIDN'T SEND HER AN INVITATION.

>> MAYBE THAT'S BETTER -- [ LAUGHTER ] >> OKAY, LET'S MOVE ON -- >> I THOUGHT IT WAS -- >> I'M SORRY.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL.

I THINK IT'S -- THERE WAS NO LOVE LOST THERE, I DON'T THINK, AND I DON'T THINK, FIRST OF ALL, TISHAURA JONES NEEDS ANYBODY'S INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY TO DO WHAT SHE'S GOING TO DO.

I UNDERSTAND WHAT BILL'S SAYING, BUT, YOU KNOW, FRANKLY, AND YES, IT WOULD BE NICE IF ALL THE POLITICS WERE MORE CORDIAL AND WHATEVER THEY ARE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER THE NIGHT THAT -- ON ELECTION NIGHT WHEN TISHAURA JONES WON, AT ONE AND THE SAME TIME, DARLENE GREEN SENT AN EMAIL OUT, THIS IS WHILE TISHAURA WAS ON THE SCREEN TALKING, DARLENE GREEN SENT A BEAUTIFUL EMAIL CONGRATULATING BOTH TISHAURA JONES AND CARA SPENCER FOR RUNNING A GOOD RACE, AND AT THE SAME MOMENT, WE HAD AN EMAIL FROM LYDA KREWSON TALKING ABOUT PROPOSITION E PASSING AND DIDN'T EVEN REFERENCE TISHAURA'S VICTORY.

SO I'M GUESSING IT WAS -- THERE'S MORE HISTORY THERE.

I JUST THINK IT WAS SUCH A GREAT CEREMONY AND SHE'S OFF TO SUCH A GREAT START.

OBVIOUS THERE'S A HONEYMOON PERIOD THAT WON'T LAST FOREVER, BUT I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

>> I WISH HER WELL, RAY.

I THINK EVERYBODY DOES, BUT -- >> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BILL.

>> IN CLOSING THE WORKHOUSE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AN $8 MILLION SAVINGS.

THERE WAS MONEY THERE FOR SOCIAL WORKERS AND RE-ENTRY.

THERE WAS MONEY FOR INVESTIGATIONS OF ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE AND MISTREATMENT ON THE PART OF THE GUARDS, AND SHE WAS WEARING WHITE.

IT WAS SNOWING IN APRIL.

I MEAN, IT WAS PERFECT IN SO MANY WAYS.

AND ANYBODY THAT I TALKED TO, AND THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY CURIOUS ABOUT HER, YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS SAY THE SAME THING.

WE ALL HAVE TO ROOT FOR HER BECAUSE SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR HUB AND WE CAN'T -- >> WELL, WELL -- >> WELL, SHE IS.

>> THAT'S NOT THE DONNYBROOK WAY.

WE TAKE OUR POLITICIANS TO TASK AND WHEN IT COMES TO THAT WORKHOUSE, MS. WIESE -- LET ME JUST SAY THIS.

>> AND YOU CAN'T RELEASE INMATES, I AGREE, CHARLIE, I MEAN FROM THE WORKHOUSE AND SEND THEM DOWN TO THE JUSTICE CENTER WHERE WE KNOW THAT LOCKS DON'T WORK, AND I JUST -- I THINK REIMAGINING LAW ENFORCEMENT WHILE YOU HAVE A SKYROCKETING VIOLENT CRIME PROBLEM, SHE'S JUST GOING TO -- SHE'S GOING TO NEED A LOT OF OUR WELL WISHES.

THAT'S ALL.

>> DON'T FORGET, IT'S AT THE JUSTICE CENTER WHERE THE RESIDENTS THERE ARE PROTESTING, NOT AT THE WORKHOUSE.

SHE SAYS THAT THE FOOD IS MOLDY AT THE WORKHOUSE.

>> AT THE WORKHOUSE.

>> THROW IT OUT AND BUY NEW FOOD.

>> NO, CHARLIE -- >> HANG ON A MOMENT.

>> SHE MADE A PROMISE.

>> THE PLUMBING DOESN'T WORK AT THE WORKHOUSE.

IT DOES NOT WORK AT THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER AND WE HAVE NOW FACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT THE INMATES ARE PREYING UPON EACH OTHER AT THE JUSTICE CENTER.

MEANWHILE -- >> CHARLIE, THAT DOES NOT SPEAK TO WHETHER THE WORKHOUSE SHOULD BE CLOSED.

A LOT OF PEOPLE FOR MANY YEARS HAVE BEEN IRRESPECTIVE OF THE JUSTICE CENTER, WHICH HAS ITS OWN PROBLEMS, OBVIOUSLY -- >> MAJOR PROBLEMS, BIGGER PROBLEMS, AND SHE ALSO POINTED -- >> WHY ARE YOU PUTTING -- >> AND THE LOCKS DON'T WORK.

>> CHARLIE -- >> AND SHE POINTED OUT THAT PROBLEMS AT THE WORKHOUSE, THAT WAS 12 YEARS AGO.

>> HOW ABOUT STOP DEBATING THAT'S ALREADY BEEN -- >> WE'VE HAD AN ELECTION.

>> THERE WAS AN ELECTION IN THE CITY.

>> RIGHT.

>> TISHAURA JONES SAID SHE'D CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE.

SHE WON THE ELECTION AND SHE -- >> CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE.

>> IT'S NOT HER CALL.

SHE HAS TO GET IT THROUGH -- IT'S NOT DONE YET.

>> LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS, CHARLIE.

THEY'RE GOING TO CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE AND THEY SHOULD, SO LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS -- >> WELL, BY THAT MEASURE THEN, EVERYTHING THIS HAWLEY DOES IS FINE BECAUSE HE WAS ELECTED.

HE'S AN OFFICIAL AND WE SHOULD WISH HIM WELL.

I JUST HEARD THAT ABOUT TISHAURA, RIGHT?

SO WHEN HE VOTES AGAINST THE HATE CRIMES BILL THAT WOULD HELP ASIAN AMERICANS, LET'S SUPPORT HIM.

>> HERE'S AN APPLE AND HERE'S AN ORANGE.

>> THANK YOU, WENDY.

>> HERE'S A REPUBLICAN, HERE'S A DEMOCRAT.

DIFFERENT ROLES.

>> CHARLIE, JOSH HAWLEY IS WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING.

THIS IS WHY -- AND SO, YOU KNOW, AND TISHAURA WASN'T -- THIS WASN'T JUST A -- >> LET'S TALK ABOUT HAWLEY REALLY BRIEFLY BECAUSE TO MAKE POLITICS MORE INTERESTING, MARK McCLOSKEY SAYS HE MIGHT THROW HIS HAT IN THE RING.

RAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT HAWLEY BEING THE ONLY SENATOR OUT OF, WHAT, 96 WHO VOTED, 95-1, WHO DIDN'T VOTE TO SUPPORT LEGISLATION THAT WOULD TRAIN POLICE, ESTABLISH A HOTLINE, ALSO IMPROVE EDUCATION ABOUT ASIAN AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> WHITE NATIONALISM IS JOSH HAWLEY'S BRAND.

IT'S THE MOTHER'S MILK OF HIS CAMPAIGN.

I MEAN, HE IS GOING TO BE AGAINST ANYTHING THAT DOESN'T HELP HIM -- OR EXCUSE ME, THAT DOES HELP HIM BY BEING AGAINST IT IN THE CULTURE WAR.

JOSH HAWLEY HAS DECLARED HIMSELF TO BE THE HEIR APPARENT, WHETHER -- I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO MAKE IT, TO DONALD TRUMP IN THE CULTURE WAR.

THAT'S HIS WHOLE SCHTICK.

HE'S GOING TO DO IT.

I MEAN, IT'S -- WHITE NATIONALISTS GOT TO BE WHITE NATIONALISTS.

HE'S GONNA DO WHAT HE'S GONNA DO AND I DON'T FIND ANYTHING SURPRISING THAT HE DOES IN THAT RESPECT.

YOU KNOW, HE'S PLAYING TO THE BASE.

>> YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT.

I MEAN, I JUST -- NOT MUCH YOU CAN SAY ABOUT JOSH HAWLEY OTHER THAN HE DOES STAND BY HIMSELF THIS TIME AND LOOKS RIDICULOUS, AND, YOU KNOW, SO BE IT.

I DON'T THINK THAT -- THIS ONE, I DON'T THINK IT HELPS HIM IN MISSOURI TOO MUCH, BUT I -- BUT YOU'RE RIGHT.

>> BUT WE HAVE TO WISH OUR LEADERS THE BEST.

>> HE'S HAD A, YOU KNOW, A ONE-MAN WAR GOING WITH CHINA FOR SOME TIME NOW, BUT THIS IS -- WHEN YOU THINK OF WHAT HAPPENED IN ATLANTA AND WHAT WE ARE LEARNING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, IT'S EGREGIOUS THAT HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

>> RIGHT.

WELL, I'M -- ALSO, CHARLIE, I WISH, WHEN JOSH HAWLEY WAS ELECTED, I WISHED HIM THE BEST.

>> YES.

>> I HAS EARNED THE SPITE OF PEOPLE LIKE ME.

I DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING PROBLEM WITH JOSH HAWLEY WINNING THAT ELECTION, BUT IF YOU WANT TO ACT LIKE YOU'RE IN THE KLAN, THEN, YEAH, I GOT A BIG PROBLEM WITH THAT.

>> I THINK HE'S ACTUALLY -- >> ANNE WAGNER THIS WEEK WAS TWEETING ABOUT BEIJING BIDEN.

DONALD TRUMP IN 2018 WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO CONGRATULATE THE CHINESE PRESIDENT SO BEING NAMED PRESIDENT FOR LIFE AND TALKED ABOUT HOW HE WISH HE COULD, HALF JOKIN JOKINGLY, AND HE HAD LIKE 15 TIMES IN WHEN HE PRAISED XI.

NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, JOSH HAWLEY ARE THESE BIG CHINA WARRIORS.

DONALD TRUMP DIDN'T STAND UP ONE TIME FOR THE PEOPLE OF HONG KONG AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, ALL HE CAN TALK ABOUT IS CHINA.

>> LET'S MOVE CLOSER TO HOME.

ERNIE TRAKAS IN A FRACAS OVER THE WEEKEND.

HE WAS DRIVING DOWN 64/40 WHEN SOMEONE DECIDED TO TAKE A SHOOTING IRON AND SHOOT AT HIS MOVING VEHICLE.

THERE WERE TWO OR THREE BULLET HOLES IN HIS AUTOMOBILE, AND IT IS TRUE THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE MORE ROLLING GUNFIRE ON AREA HIGHWAYS.

WE LOST A 17-YEAR-OLD BOY TUESDAY NIGHT TO GUNFIRE.

OF COURSE, THAT'S ABOUT THE 11th TIME SINCE LAST APRIL THAT SOMEBODY ON JUST HIGHWAY 70 ALONE HAS EITHER BEEN SHOT AT OR KILLED IN GUNFIRE ON THE HIGHWAY.

SO IT'S BEEN ANNOUNCED THAT THE HIGHWAY PATROL IS GOING TO COME BACK AND PATROL SOME OF OUR HIGHWAYS.

I THINK -- LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES DON'T PATROL OUR HIGHWAYS ANYMORE AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE THE REVENUE THEY COULD GENERATE FROM THOSE TICKETS WAS LIMITED BY SENATE BILL 5 WHICH WAS ENDORSED BY NOW ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC SCHMITT.

>> ONCE AGAIN, FUNNY HOW THIS WORKS OUT.

ONCE YOU GOT WEST OF HIGHWAY 270 AND SOMEBODY'S CAR GETS SHOT UP, GRANTED IT WAS ERNIE TRAKAS AND NOW WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION, WE HAVE TO HAVE THE POLICE.

IT'S DODGE CITY UP THERE BEBELL FOUNTAIN NEIGHBORS AND ALL THAT ON THE HIGHWAY, BUT NOW WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION.

I DON'T THINK IT'S THE LACK OF REVENUE THAT, YOU KNOW, IS -- SO THEY DON'T GIVE TICKETS.

I THINK IT'S JUST MORE GUNS AND MORE VIOLENCE AND I THINK JUST THE PROLIFERATION OF GUNS HAS MORE TO DO WITH IT THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

THAT'S HOW PEOPLE SETTLE THEIR PROBLEMS NOW, WITH GUNS.

>> I REMEMBER THE DAYS WHEN DRIVE-BY SHOOTINGS WERE NEW.

NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT.

AND NOW IT'S ROLLING GUN BATTLES.

>> GUN BATTLES, YEAH.

WELL, AND AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, THE PANDEMIC HAS BROUGHT OUT SOME REALLY CRAZY BEHAVIOR ON THE HIGHWAYS AND I HATE TO SAY THIS, BUT I CERTAINLY DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO GET ANY BETTER ANYTIME SOON.

>> WELL, NO, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE.

WENDY, WHAT ABOUT A GAS TAX IN MISSOURI?

IT'S BEEN SUGGESTED BY BOTH LABOR AND BUSINESS THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD TAKE OUR 17 CENT TAX AND MOVE IT UP TO 29 CENTS, PHASE IN THAT 12 CENTS OVER FIVE OR SO YEARS.

I SAY WHY NOT FIRST WAIT TO SEE HOW MUCH MONEY WE GET FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS AN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD GO AHEAD ANYWAY BEFORE WE FIND OUT HOW MUCH MONEY IS COMING FROM WASHINGTON?

>> I THINK THAT ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S LIST IN TERMS OF INFRASTRUCTURE, THE WISH LIST, WE RECEIVED A C-MINUS AS A STATE.

WE HAVE, I THINK IT WAS 2200 BRIDGES THAT ARE GRADED AS BEING IN POOR CONDITION, AND 7700 MILES OF ROAD GRADED AS IN POOR CONDITION.

THIS IS GRADUAL, AS YOU SAID.

I SAY LET'S NOT WAIT UNTIL THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

LET'S GET GOING ON THIS.

NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO BE BETWEEN 9800 AND 25,000 JOBS.

JUST TO SEE THE CHAMBER AND LABOR WORKING TOGETHER LIKE THIS IS KIND OF REFRESHING.

BUT I THINK WE -- I THINK WE NEED IT.

I THINK WE NEED IT.

WE'VE HEARD TOO MANY TIMES ABOUT ROADS AND BRIDGES IN THIS STATE.

>> REVENUE STARVED IS NOT A GOOD WAY TO RUN A GOVERNMENT AND WENDY IS RIGHT.

AT LEAST SOME -- I WOULD ASSUME, I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS, A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THOSE TAX DOLLARS WILL COME FROM PEOPLE USING OUR ROADS FROM OUT OF STATE, I WOULD THINK, AND THAT'S A -- WE'RE THE MOST CENTRALLY LOCATED STATE OUT OF 50 IN THE COUNTRY.

NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, WEST.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S A -- PROBABLY A MORE PERSUASIVE ARGUMENT FOR TOLLS.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT, RAY.

THIS IS WHY WE NEED TO PASS A LAW THAT SAYS YOU CAN'T HAVE TOLLS AND THEN THREE OR FOUR YEARS LATER, YOU'RE TRYING TO PASS A GAS TAX.

I MEAN, THAT'S -- IT'S NONSENSICAL, BUT I GUESS WE'RE USED TO THAT COMING OUT OF JEFFERSON CITY.

>> ABSOLUTELY, ALVIN.

I BEAT MY HEAT -- I WROTE ABOUT IT, BEAT MY HEAD AGAINST THE WALL FOR TEN YEARS.

WE HAD TOLLING ON HIGHWAY 70, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A HUGE WINDFALL AND YOU CAN SET THE TOLLS UP SO LOCAL PEOPLE -- LIKE IN ST. LOUIS, IF THE TOLL WAS AT THE BRIDGE AND THEN NOT TOLL WEST OF WENTZVILLE OR SOMETHING, PEOPLE IN OUR AREA WOULDN'T BE PAYING THEM EVERY DAY TO GO PLACES.

IT WOULD HAVE AFFECTED PEOPLE IN ILLINOIS WORKING HERE, BUT THE POINT IS, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST UNTOLD MILLIONS, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, WHATEVER IT IS, COMING IN FROM TRUCKERS AND PEOPLE TEARING UP OUR HIGHWAYS.

BUT THEY WOULDN'T DO IT AND I THINK THIS IS THE NEXT BEST THING.

>> THE ONLY THING I GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT, AND I DO AGREE WITH TOLLS AND I MIGHT EVEN VOTE FOR A GAS TAX INCREASE, BUT ILLINOIS HAS A HIGHER GAS TAX AND IT'S GOT TOLLS, AND I THINK OUR HIGHWAYS ARE BETTER THAN ILLINOIS'S.

I MEAN CERTAINLY ON THE METRO EAST SIDE THAN IN CHICAGO.

>> THAT'S JUST SO MANY CARS, CHARLIE.

I MEAN, THAT -- FOR EVERY ONE CAR WE'RE DRIVING AROUND HERE, THERE'S PROBABLY 27 IN THE CHICAGO AREA.

THAT'S PART OF IT.

>> THERE SHOULD BE MORE MONEY GOING IN BETWEEN THE GASOLINE TAX AND THE TOLLS, RIGHT?

>> YES, I'M JUST SAYING THAT THE CONDITION OF SOME HIGHWAYS IN THE CHICAGO AREA ARE PER THE NUMBER OF CARS.

BY THE WAY, I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE BECAUSE I'VE BEEN GOING UP THERE A LOT WITH MY DAUGHTER IN COLLEGE, AND I DIDN'T REALLY SEE THAT BIG A DIFFERENCE.

THEY GOT MORE LANES TOO.

>> WELL, HOW ABOUT YOU, ALVIN, WHEN IT COMES TO TAKING A LEFT ON RED?

IF LEGISLATION IN JEFFERSON CITY PASSES AND IT'S SIGN BY THE GOVERNOR, YOU CAN TAKE A LEFT AT A RED LIGHT ON A ONE-WAY STREET IN MISSOURI.

ARE YOU FOR THIS IN KIRKWOOD?

>> I AM FOR THIS.

WHEN I MOVED BACK TO ST. LOUIS, I HAD TO TAKEN THE WRITTEN TEST TO CHANGE MY DRIVER'S LICENSE.

I GOT EVERY QUESTION RIGHT EXCEPT IF THERE'S TWO ONE-WAY STREETS, CAN YOU MAKE A LEFT TURN ON RED, AND I SAID NO.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS RIDICULOUS.

THE LADY GRADING THE TEST SAID THAT WAS ACTUALLY LEGAL.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS STATEWIDE OR HERE OR AT THAT PARTICULAR OFFICE OF THE DMV AND THAT'S A TRUE STORY.

MAYBE SOMETHING CHANGED SINCE 1995.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

>> LET ME STAND UP FOR POSITION HERE.

THERE'S SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG, ALVIN, TURNING LEFT AT A TRAFFIC LIGHT, EVEN IF THERE'S NOTHING COMING.

I MEAN, I'M ALWAYS PULLING OUT TO SKENG KERR BOULEVARD IN THE EARLY MORNING AND WANTING TO MAKE A LEFT AND THERE'S NO CARS COMING AND I THINK, I OUGHT TO JUST BE ABLE TO DO IT, BUT I DON'T.

I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME PRINCIPLES AND LEFT -- >> YOU'RE A GOOD CITIZEN.

WHEN I TRAVELED -- WHEN I STILL HAVE PSYCHOLOGICAL WOUNDS FROM TRAVELING TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND BEING -- I MEAN, THE NAMES THAT WERE HURLED AT ME IN MY CAR WITH MISSOURI PLATES WHEN YOU -- IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE OUT THERE, EVERYBODY TURNS LEFT ON RED, I JUST -- IT WAS LIKE I HAD -- I COULD NOT DO IT.

IT WAS LIKE A GENETIC THING, I SIMPLY COULD NOT DO IT.

BUT WE'VE GOT -- LET'S THINK ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE A DISPENSARY IN COLLINSVILLE.

WE'VE GOT TO-GO CONTAINERS OF COCKTAILS.

IF YOU REALLY THINK THAT WE'RE EQUIPPED TO GO LEFT ON A RED LIGHT, MORE POWER TO YOU.

>> AND IN WEBSTER IN YOUR GOLF CART.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> IN WEBSTER IN YOUR GOLF CART.

>> WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS AT WHAT POINT IN THE HISTORY OF THIS SHOW THAT MR. McCLELLAN BECAME THE LAW AND ORDER GUY.

>> WELL, I'M CERTAINLY -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> IT'S A LITTLE BIT -- I DON'T RECALL.

IT'S KIND OF SHOCKING.

OF COURSE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TURN LEFT ON RED.

>> OF COURSE YOU SHOULD, YOU SAY?

>> RAY GOES LEFT ON EVERYTHING.

EVERY ISSUE HE'S LEFT ON.

>> HEY, GOOD JOB.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, BILL, IN CLAYTON, CALERES FORMERLY KNOWN AS BROWN SHOE, THE HEADQUARTERS IS UP FOR SALE.

THE CEO DOESN'T KNOW IF THEY'RE EVEN GOING TO STAY IN ST. LOUIS.

THESE BOOTS ARE MADE FOR WALKIN'.

ARE THEY GOING TO WALK OUT OF TOWN AND ARE YOU AFRAID WE'RE GOING TO LOSE ANOTHER LARGE CORPORATION HERE?

>> WELL, I'M ALWAYS FRIGHTENED WHEN ANYBODY PUTS A BUILDING UP FOR SALE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ASSOCIATED WITH A SINGLE COMPANY.

I ALWAYS THINK, OH, THIS IS THE WORST.

AND I HOPE I'M PROVED WRONG.

I HOPE THE REGION MAKES A COMEBACK, BUT YEAH, I SEE NEWS LIKE THIS AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO LEAVE ST. LOUIS, THE BUILDING'S GOING TO BE VACANT.

YEAH.

I ALWAYS SEE THE GLASS AS HALF EMPTY.

>> THEY HAVE 700 EMPLOYEES.

THIS IS WHERE STILL -- I MEAN, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, WE'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC.

THEY HAVE HAD TO RETHINK THE WAY THEY ACCOMMODATE THOSE EMPLOYEES.

I THINK THAT THIS IS JUST A MOVE WHERE YOU'VE GOT A PRIME, VERY LUCRATIVE LOCATION IN CLAYTON.

THIS IS A SELLER'S MARKET.

THEY'RE STRIKING WHILE THE IRON IS HOT, WHILE ALL OF THE -- SORT OF THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY IN TERMS OF WORK FROM HOME.

I'M TRYING -- I KNOW I SOUND LIKE POLY ANNA, BUT I DON'T THINK THIS IS A BAD OWE MEN.

>> GOOD.

>> MAYBE SO, BUT WE ALREADY HAVE CENTENE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF CLAYTON SAYING THEY'RE BUILDING A SECOND HEADQUARTERS IN CHARLOTTE AND NOW FORMER BROWN SHOE WHERE WE USED TO BE, YOU KNOW, FIRST IN BOOZE, FIRST IN SHOES, AND LAST IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE, ST. LOUIS WAS KNOWN AS A SHOE PLACE AND WHO KNOWS WHERE THESE EMPLOYEES WILL GO.

>> BUT THAT'S A BROWN SHOE ISSUE I THINK MORE THAN ANYTHING.

I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT VERY THING BECAUSE I ACTUALLY REMEMBER THAT FROM THE '40s, BUT I -- NO, I MEAN, I THINK BILL'S RIGHT.

I THINK IT'S -- NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO -- IT'S FITTING ABOUT HOW THEY'RE MEETING THE NEEDS OF THEIR ASSOCIATES, SPINNING IT.

I THINK BILL'S RIGHT.

IT'S DEFINITELY A RED FLAG.

WE'LL SEE.

>> DEFINITELY A RED FLAG FOR COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE.

>> WELL, YEAH, BUT WE KNEW THAT.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, CHICAGO NOW, 15.5% VACANCY IN THE OFFICE MARKET.

THEY'RE ANTICIPATING IT'S GOING TO BE UP TO 20% IN DOWNTOWN CHICAGO BY THE END OF NEXT YEAR AND ALREADY 15% IS A RECORD FOR CHICAGO.

RAY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT HOMESCHOOLERS.

A MEASURE IN JEFF CITY WOULD ALLOW KIDS WHO STUDY AT HOME, HOMESCHOOL, TO JOIN THE DEBATE TEAM OR THE SOCCER TEAM OR THE FOOTBALL TEAM OR THE ORCHESTRA AT THE LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL AND IF THE LOCAL HIGH SCHOOLS DON'T ALLOW THEM TO DO THAT, THEY'LL LOSE CERTAIN STATE FUNDING.

GOOD LEGISLATION?

>> UM, NO.

I THINK THAT -- I'LL CHANNEL MY FELLOW FOUNDER AND BE A TRADITIONALIST HERE.

FIVE WORDS: BE TRUE TO YOUR SCHOOL.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO -- AS FAR AS THE ATHLETICS, IF I HAD TO -- CURRENTLY MAYBE YOU HAVE TO TAKE TWO CLASSES OR SOMETHING TO BE PART OF YOUR TEAM, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO -- WHETHER IT'S YOUR DEBATE TEAM, YOUR FOOTBALL TEAM.

THESE ARE EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES THAT ARE ABOUT REPRESENTING YOUR SCHOOL, YOUR PEOPLE, YOU KNOW.

THEY'RE EXTRACURRICULAR, BUT YOU GOT TO DO THE CURRICULAR PART FIRST.

AND I THINK THAT IF PEOPLE WANT TO NOT -- IF THEY WANT TO HOMESCHOOL THEIR KIDS, FINE, BUT I DON'T -- I LIKE THE IDEA THAT THE BASKETBALL TEAM, ANY OF THE TEAMS OF A SCHOOL OR, AGAIN, DEBATE PROGRAM, THAT THEY'RE THE KIDS THAT ARE AT THE SCHOOL.

>> WELL, THEY HAVE TO BE IN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT AND THESE PEOPLE ARE HELPING PAY FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SO IF THEIR CHILD WANTS TO AVAIL HIM OR HERSELF OF THE DRAMA CLUB OR THE FOOTBALL TEAM, SOUNDS GOOD TO ME.

>> I MEAN, I'M MR. PUBLIC SCHOOL AND THERE IS A TOUGH ONE.

I THINK THAT, ONE, HEY, THE HOMEOWNER, THE PARENT, SOMEBODY DOES PAY TAXES.

NOW, ANY ADDITIONAL EXPENSE TO, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY LIKE FOR INSURANCE TO PLAY ON A FOOTBALL TEAM OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT IS NOT COVERED, YOU KNOW, MAYBE BECAUSE I GO TO KIRKWOOD HIGH SCHOOL, MAYBE THAT'S ALL WRAPPED UP IN, YOU KNOW, THEIR INSURANCE POLICY OR WHATEVER.

ANY ADDITIONAL EXPENSE HAS TO BE PAID BY THE FAMILY OF THE HOMESCHOOL, ALL RIGHT.

AND THEN, TOO, I WOULD TELL EVERY PARENT, THAT'S FINE.

WE'RE GOING STTO OPENLY RECRUIT YOUR KID TO COME TO THIS HIGH SCHOOL, THIS MIDDLE SCHOOL, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE BASHFUL ABOUT THAT AND THERE WILL BE A DELAYED OF CONSEQUENCE OF IT WON'T BE TWO WEEKS BEFORE SEVERAL KIDS MEET PEOPLE, LIKE THEM, GIRLS, GUYS, HEY, MOM, DAD, I WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL.

I WANT TO GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL.

AND THEN THAT NONSENSE WILL BE OVER.

>> IT'S NOT NONSENSE.

IT'S NOT NONSENSE.

>> IT'S NOT NONSENSE IN THE MINDS OF THE FAMILIES WHO CONCLUDES TO HOMESCHOOL FOR WHATEVER REASON THAT IS.

I DO NOT LIKE THE -- I DON'T LIKE THE THREAT OF THE REPRESENTATIVE FROM SMITHVILLE, WE'RE GOING TO PULL YOUR CORE FUNDING.

BUT I DO AGREE WITH BILL AND ALVIN ABOUT THE FACT THAT THESE FAMILIES ARE PAYING.

SO IF THEY DON'T HAVE THESE KINDS OF ASSOCIATIONS IN THESE RURAL AREAS, I DON'T THINK THESE KIDS SHOULD BE PENALIZED FOR THAT.

>> AND I WASN'T CALLING HOMESCHOOLING NONSENSE.

I WAS JUST SAYING THE INTERACTION -- YOU KNOW HOW KIDS ARE.

>> OH, I GOT YOU.

THE SOCIALIZATION.

>> I HAD NO REASON THAT I WANTED TO GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL AND THEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAW THE CHEERLEADERS AND -- >> I GOTCHA, I GOTCHA.

>> BUT THIS IS A DIFFICULT ISSUE.

ONE THING THAT NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IS ANY AMOUNT OF LOCAL AUTONOMY.

I DON'T THINK THE STATE CAN NECESSARILY DICTATE TO ALL SCHOOL DISTRICTS THAT THEY HAVE TO DO IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

BUT I'LL STICK TO MY GUNS.

I THINK THE IDEA OF EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES IS TO REPRESENT THE SCHOOL.

THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE KIDS IN SCHOOL THAT PAY FOR SCHOOL DISTRICTS, SO SO WHAT.

I DON'T THINK THE FACT THAT YOU PAY TAXES ENTITLES YOU -- >> I WOULDN'T WANT TO BEGRUDGE A BOY OR GIRL A CHANCE TO JOIN THE RADIO CLUB.

OKAY.

NOW, LET'S MOVE ON.

>> WORK ON THE SCHOOL PAPER.

>> THE SCHOOL PAPER.

>> THEY DON'T GO TO THE SCHOOL BUT EDITING THE SCHOOL PAPER, I JUST DON'T -- >> HOW VERY INCLUSIVE OF YOU, RAY.

>> LAST TOPIC OF OUR SHOW, WE MOVE TO ALVIN REID.

SPORTS COLUMNIST FOR THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN.

A NUMBER OF MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA WHO DON'T PAY ADMISSION TO GO TO BUSCH STADIUM, ARE CRITICAL OF THOSE WHO DO WHO ARE WOOING -- DIKE LIFE RIC FLAIR, I CAN'T DO A WOO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.

ALVIN, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I GOT NO PROBLEM WITH THE WOOING.

I DON'T SEE THE STANDARD WHERE WE GET ON THIS HIGH HORSE ABOUT WHAT FANS DO AT THE CARDINALS BASEBALL GAME.

THAT THING THEY DO AT THE BLUES GAIRGETION I THINK THAT'S THE MOST HORRIFIC THING EVER, BUT YOU CAN'T DICTATE WHAT FANS DO OTHER THAN THROWING STUFF ON THE ICE OR ON THE FIELD OR PROFANITY OR DRUNKENNESS, BUT YOU KNOW, IF THAT'S THE WAY FANS WANT TO HAVE FUN, MORE POWER TO THEM.

>> I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE AMEREN DANCE WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE MAYCO THIRD PERIOD OR WHATEVER.

IT'S ALL ABOUT SPONSORSHIP.

LET THEM WOO.

>> DON'T TAKE AWAY COTTON-EYED JOE.

>> DO IT AGAIN, ALVIN.

WOO, WOO!

>> THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE.

IN A MOMENT NEXT UP, WE HAVE TWO DISTINGUISHED GUEST.

DONE TOUCH THAT DIAL.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF THE BETTY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

* >> HEY, THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEXT UP.

THIS IS WHERE WE TALK TO COMMUNITY LEADERS ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN ST. LOUIS AND AROUND THE WORLD.

THIS WEEK IT SEEMS LIKE EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY IS TALKING ABOUT POLICE AND POSSIBLE POLICE REFORM.

AND SO WE THOUGHT WE'D WELCOME THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF FORWARD THROUGH FERGUSON, DAVID DWIGHT IV, TO RETURN TO OUR PROGRAM.

HE KINDLY AGREED TO DO THAT.

MR. DWIGHT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> DOING WELL.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

GREG WILLARD, PROFESSOR OF LAW, ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY, IS ALSO ON THE DAIS FOR THE FIRST TIME.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, CHARLIE.

>> I'LL JUST THROW OUT THE QUESTION.

WHERE ARE WE IN POLICING RIGHT NOW AND IF YOU HAD YOUR DRUTHERS, WHAT CHANGES WOULD BE MADE?

LET'S START WITH YOU, PROFESSOR WILLARD.

>> CHARLIE, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE TAKE A PAUSE AND STEP BACK AND LOOK AT IT BRIEFLY IN A HISTORICAL CONTEXT.

TAKE OUR VIEWERS BACK TO 1600s IN VIRGINIA AND IT IS A SAD CHAPTER, BUT IT IS A CHAPTER OF ALL OF US.

IT BEGAN, OUR COUNTRY'S JOURNEY WITH SLAVERY.

YOU TAKE THAT FOR TWO AND A HALF CENTURIES TO THE CIVIL WAR IN 1865, AND THERE WAS A FLICKER, CHARLIE, WHERE MAYBE WE WERE TURNING THE CORNER.

UNFORTUNATELY, RECONSTRUCTION LASTED ALL OF TEN YEARS, AND WITH THE HAYES-CHILDEN COMPROMISE IN 1876 WENT RECONSTRUCTION.

SO WE SUFFERED WITH THE JIM CROW LAWS AND THE HORRIFIC STATE-SANCTIONED CRIMINAL NATION FOR DECADES AND DECADES AND NOW WE FIND OURSELVES EARLY IN THE 21st CENTURY.

WE'VE GOT A HISTORY OF FOUR CENTURIES THAT, IF NOTHING ELSE, SHOWS US THAT WE AS A SOCIETY AND THE POLICING PORTION OF THAT SOCIETY, WE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO, CHARLIE.

AND I THINK THE EVENTS IN MINNEAPOLIS THE LAST FEW WEEKS HAVE JUST REMINDED US OF THE MOMENT, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT THAT EMPHASIZING THAT POINT.

WE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

>> MR. DAVID.

>> YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT GROUNDING IN HISTORY BECAUSE WE CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND WHERE WE ARE NOW IF WE KNOW WHERE WE'VE BEEN.

SO MANY OF THOSE ROOTS THAT WERE JUST MENTIONED ABOUT THE FOUNDING OF POLICING AS WELL AS THOSE INITIAL COMPROMISES AND POWER DYNAMICS THAT WERE CREATED ON WHO WAS CONSIDERED A FULL HUMAN BEING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, STILL REMAIN AT THE ROOT OF WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

AND SO WE REMAIN IN A POINT OF CRISIS THROUGH OUR ENTIRE HISTORY THAT'S BEEN WITH US.

TO PUSH FOR US TO HAVE A PUBLIC SAFETY SYSTEM THAT ACTUALLY CENTERS THE PUBLIC SAFETY OF ALL OF OUR RESIDENTS, AND WE'RE AT A MOMENT NOW IT'S REACHING ANOTHER PEAK OF WORK.

AND I'M REALLY, REALLY INCREDIBLY HEARTENED BY THE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DOING WORK IN THE STREETS AND THE ACADEMY AND GOVERNMENT IN A VARIETY OF SYSTEMS TO EVEN GET THIS CONVICTION, BUT THIS CONVICTION IS NOT THE GOAL.

THIS IS ONE SMALL STEP, A LITTLE BIT OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT ACTUALLY IS NOT REALLY WHAT WE SHOULD BE SEEKING.

I THINK IF I'M THINKING ABOUT WHERE WE SHOULD BE LOOKING, IT'S A COMPLETELY RESTRUCTURING OF HOW WE THINK ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY AND REDUCING A LOT OF THE WAYS THAT POLICE ARE EMPOWERED TO ACTUALLY PUT A LOTF HARM ON COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY BLACK COMMUNITIES IN ST. LOUIS AND THE UNITED STATES.

>> ALVIN.

>> DAVID, I'LL FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

NAME ME A COUPLE OF THOSE.

OKAY, YOU KNOW, FOR THE POLICE, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S EVER BEEN THE CASE AND I HAVE TROUBLE CONDEMNING EVERY MAN AND WOMAN WHO IS A POLICE OFFICER BECAUSE I THINK THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY MEAN NO HARM TO ANYONE.

>> I THINK THAT'S THE REALLY DANGEROUS THING ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM IS IT ACTUALLY DOESN'T TAKE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE ILL WILL FOR THERE TO BE RACIST OUTCOMES AND A LOT OF STATE VIOLENCE THAT OCCURS.

I MEAN, LOOKING EVEN RECENTLY, THERE ARE A NUMBER, MANY, MANY CASES IN ST. LOUIS, WE ACTUALLY HAVE THE HIGHEST RATING OF POLICE KILLINGS OF CIVILIANS IN THE COUNTRY IN SLMPD, THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT AND QUITE A HISTORY OF ENACTING VIOLENCE ON COMMUNITIES.

I THINK WHEN WE FOCUS IN ON INDIVIDUALS, WHETHER THE INDIVIDUAL COP IS GOOD OR BAD, WE LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR THE TREES AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT IS HOW ARE WE EVEN STRUCTURING THE CREATION OF PUBLIC SAFETY.

POLICE ARE NOT TRAINED TO ACTUALLY MEET COMMUNITY NEEDS, TO CREATE SAFETY, AND THEY'RE ACTUALLY TRAINED MORE AS PARAMILITARY ORGANIZATIONS AND TRAINED TO ENACT FORCE WHEN ACTUALLY THE ROOT CAUSES OF CRIME ARE THE THINGS THAT ANYBODY NEEDS IN ORDER TO THRIVE AND HAVE WELL-BEING.

SO I DO THINK IT'S BEYOND JUST CHAMGING THE USE OF -- CLANGING THE USE OF FORCE STATUTE.

I THINK IT RESTRUCTURING AND MOVING OUT SOME OF THE FUNCTIONS WE CURRENTLY HAVE AS POLICE AND PUTTING THEM INTO MORE APPROPRIATE PROFESSIONALS THAT CAN RESPOND TO COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

>> RAY.

>> AFTER THE VERDICT, WHICH MOST OF US, I THINK, WAS AN EXAMPLE OF RACIAL JUSTICE, BUT BY NO MEANS, AS YOU POINT OUT, AN END, WITHIN 24 HOURS THERE WERE THREE VIDEOED SHOOTINGS OF -- OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS, AS THEY CALL THEM, OF AFRICAN AMERICANS, ALL OF WHICH ARE HAVING THE SAME REACTION.

MEANWHILE IN MISSOURI AND MANY OTHER STATES, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF LEGISLATION THAT -- REPUBLICAN LEGISLATION THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY CRIMINALIZE PROTESTS.

YOU KNOW, ON HIGHWAYS AND ALL THIS.

EVERYTHING IS DESIGNED TO CRIMINALIZE THESE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS.

SO I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, DO YOU HAVE HOPE THAT IN MISSOURI, PLACES LIKE MISSOURI, THIS IS GOING TO ACTUALLY MOVE THE NEEDLE OR IS IT JUST GOING TO BE ONE MORE THING WE'RE FIGHTING ABOUT?

>> WELL, I'LL TAKE THAT INITIALLY, RAY.

AND I THINK PERHAPS IT WILL MOVE THE NEEDLE, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO ECHO THE COMMENTS A MOMENT AGO.

WE NEED TO KIND OF GET OVER OURSELVES IN THIS RESPECT.

I THINK, AT LEAST IN THE EYES OF MANY, AND I WOULD INCLUDE MYSELF AMONG THEM, WE HAVE SYSTEMIC RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

PERIOD, FULL STOP.

NOW, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT OUR NEIGHBORS ARE RACISTS.

IT MEANS THAT WE AS A COUNTRY HAVE A HISTORY, AS I WAS JUST SPEAKING A MOMENT AGO, OF OVER 400 YEARS OF SOME OF THE WORST EXAMPLES OF RACISM IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

NOW, IF WE CAN JUST KIND OF GET OVER THAT AND SAY, OKAY, WE HAVE SYSTEMIC RACISM, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYONE IS A RACIST, BUT WE HAVE SYSTEMIC RACISM AND WE NEED TO GET BUSY TO FIX IT.

AND SO WHEN YOU POINT OUT THESE STATUTES HERE, I DO THINK THAT THAT'S A FLICKER ON THE DIAL.

I THINK WE NEED MUCH MORE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES, AND WHETHER IT'S IN POLICING, IN HOUSING, IN FINANCE, BUT WE NEED AS A SOCIETY, WE NEED AS A BODY POLITIC, RAY, TO MOVE FORWARD AND RECOGNIZE -- NOT CONDEMN IT AND NOT TURN A BLIND EYE TO IT, BUT RECOGNIZE OUR HISTORY AND RECOGNIZE WHERE THAT HAS LEFT US IN THE 21st CENTURY.

AND SURE, THERE MAY BE A POLICY CHANGE WITH THIS POLICE DEPARTMENT THERE OR HERE THAT WILL HELP, BUT WE NEED TO THINK BIG, RAY.

THINK VERY, VERY BIG.

>> YEAH, I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

ACTUALLY FORWARD THROUGH FERGUSON HAS STUDIED POLICY CHANGES THAT HAVE HAPPENED LOCALLY IN POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE SIX OR SO YEARS SINCE THE MURDER OF MICHAEL BROWN AND THE FERGUSON UPRISING, AND WE FOUND THAT OUT OF THOSE REFORMS THAT THE FERGUSON COMMISSION OFFERED UP TO THE REGION, VERY, VERY FEW HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED AND EVEN THOSE THAT WERE IMPLEMENTED, BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THE SYSTEM IS SET UP, HOW WE APPORTION RESOURCES, THE WAY THAT POLICE ARE TRAINED, THE WAY THAT THEY'RE SET UP TO OFTEN ACT AS CRIMINALIZERS OF POVERTY CRIMES, ACTUALLY MEANS THAT THOSE SMALL REFORMS AROUND THE EDGES HAVEN'T REALLY CHANGED THE LIVED EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THE REGION.

AND IT'S WITH THAT KIND OF REFLECTION AND LEARNING THAT WE SEE, LIKE PROFESSOR WILLARD WAS SAYING, WE'VE GOT TO GO DEEPER.

IT'S A MORE FUNDAMENTAL RESTRUCTURING THAT'S NEEDED IN OUR REGION.

>> BILL.

>> AND IF I COULD BE FORWARD-LOOKING HERE FOR A MOMENT AND THE SPECIFICS, THIS SEEMS LIKE A MOMENT IN TIME, NATIONALLY AND LOCALLY, NOT ONLY IN MINNEAPOLIS WITH THAT VERDICT, BUT TISHAURA JONES BECOMING THE MAYOR, THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN ALSO MORE PROGRESSIVE.

IF YOU COULD LOOK FORWARD A YEAR, WHAT IS SOMETHING SPECIFIC THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE SO YOU COULD SAY, THERE IS A SIGN OF PROGRESS?

EITHER OF YOU.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS, AND I THINK THAT OFTEN IT FEELS LIKE WHAT WOULD PUBLIC SAFETY LOOK LIKE WITH POLICE PLAYING A MUCH SMALLER ROLE, CAN SEEM SOMETHING FANCIFUL, BUT I THINK THE ANSWER IS A TANGIBLE WAY THAT THAT CAN LOOK AND PRACTICE AND ACTUALLY EXIST TODAY.

ONE WAY I LOOK AT IT IS OUR HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES BUDGET IN ST. LOUIS CITY AND ST. LOUIS COUNTY.

RIGHT NOW BOTH OF THOSE BUDGETS ARE ACTUALLY LESS THAN JUST THE POLICE OVERTIME BUDGET.

SO IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, .02% OF THE GENERAL FUND GOES TO HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES FOR OUR RESIDENTS, COMPARED TO OVER 40% OF THE GENERAL FUND GOING TO POLICING AND OTHER FORMS OF INCARCERATION.

SO IT WOULD LOOK LIKE A SHIFTING OF THOSE PRIORITIES BECAUSE BUDGETS ARE VALUES DOCUMENTS.

ANOTHER WAY WE COULD KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IS THAT SOME OF THESE RESPONSES, THESE COMMUNITY NEEDS ACTUALLY GET FUN OFF TO OTHER PROFESSIONALS.

SO WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT TRAFFIC STOPS, NON-VIOLENT TRAFFIC STOPS, THINKING ABOUT RESPONSE TO DRUG-RELATED ISSUES AND MENTAL HEALTH AND OTHER CRISIS WHERE OFTEN POLICE CAN ACTUALLY ESCALATE A SITUATION, OR WE'VE HEARD FROM RESIDENTS THEY'RE LIKELY NOT TO CALL POLICE WHEN AN INCIDENT OCCURS BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF SOME OF THE RAMIFICATIONS OR POSSIBLE VIOLENCE, IT WOULD LOOK LIKE US ACTUALLY HAVING INDEPENDENT SERVICES THAT WOULD BE THOSE FIRST RESPONDERS FOR THOSE SET OF COMMUNITY NEEDS.

>> DEREK CHAUVIN -- >> GO AHEAD, WENDY.

>> I'M SORRY, PROFESSOR.

GO RIGHT AHEAD.

>> I WAS JUST -- I'LL QUICKLY ADD, BILL, IN TERMS OF LOOKING OUT ONE YEAR IN THE WINDOW, HERE'S A THOUGHT.

IT'S NOT UP TO PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE LEADERS IN CONGRESS TO NECESSARILY BE THE ONLY SOURCE OF A SOLUTION.

THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT.

WHAT IF A GROUP OF GOVERNORS GOT TOGETHER, BECAUSE OUR FOUNDERS CONTEMPLATED THAT THE STATES WOULD BE SORT OF THE LABORATORIES FOR SOCIAL POLICY.

WHAT IF SEVERAL GOVERNORS OF THE STATES GOT TOGETHER AND THEY COLLECTIVELY BEGAN TO COME UP WITH POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS AND POSSIBLE PROGRAMS ALONG THE LINES WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS EVENING.

I THINK THAT COULD BE A TREMENDOUS CATALYST RATHER THAN ALL EYES TURNING TO WASHINGTON AND THAT THOSE FOLKS CAN FIX OUR PROBLEMS.

BUT I JUST -- I WOULD JUST SUGGEST TO YOU, BILL THAT IF ON A STATE LEVEL, COLLECTIVELY, A GROUP OF GOVERNORS AND STATE GOVERNMENTS, I THINK, COULD FORMULATE SOME REALLY, REALLY POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> ONE OF THE COMPONENTS THAT WAS DEEMED INADMISSIBLE IN THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN WAS A 2017 INCIDENT, I BELIEVE, IN WHICH HE USED COMPRESSION OR PRESSURE ON A 14-YEAR-OLD TO THE POINT WHERE THE YOUNG MAN PASSED OUT.

AND WHAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND, AND I'M HOPING THAT MR. DWIGHT AND PROFESSOR WILLARD, IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO ME, HE HAD 18 -- HE HAD 18 COMPLAINTS, THREE OR FOUR OF THOSE WERE FORMALIZED COMPLAINTS.

HOW DO WE -- CAN WE, WILL WE NOW DO A BETTER JOB OF WEEDING OUT THESE POLICE OFFICERS WHO, IN THE WORDS OF PROFESSOR WILLARD EARLIER THIS WEEK, ARE SUCH AN INSULT TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS WHO DO THEIR JOB, COMMENDABLE ON A DAILY BASIS?

DAVID, WE'LL START WITH YOU.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK YOU BRING UP A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT ABOUT THE LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT EXISTS AND HOW THESE BEHAVIORS ARE OFTEN TOLERATED BY POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND OFTEN PROTECTED, SOMETIMES BY POLICE UNIONS, BUT ALSO OTHER OFFICERS WITHIN THE FORCE.

SOME OF YOU MAY HAVE SEEN ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THEY WERE RECIRCULATING THE PRESS RELEASE THAT WAS FIRST PUT OUT AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, WHICH COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTED WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY AWAY FROM THE OFFICER FOR WHAT HE HAD DONE.

AND I THINK WE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO LOOK TO OTHER STATES FOR THOSE KIND OF PRACTICES.

IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS HERE IN ST. LOUIS AND ACROSS THE STATE OF MISSOURI WHERE RECORDS FOR MISCONDUCT AND VIOLENCE THAT OFFICERS PERPETRATE ARE NOT ACTUALLY PUBLIC RECORD AND CAN BE INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO ACCESS, AND WE DON'T HAVE A PUBLIC-FACING USE OF FORCE DATABASE SO THAT THE PUBLIC CAN SEE THE TRENDS AND HOLD OUR DEPARTMENTS ACCOUNTABLE.

THIS IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT IS SOMETIMES CALLED THE COMMUNITY SHUFFLE WHERE THESE RECORDS AND MISCONDUCT BY OFFICERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE REPORTED UP TO THE PEACE OFFICERS STANDARDS AND TRAINING BODY AT THE STATE LEVEL, AND THEN THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BAR THEM FROM BEING ABLE TO MOVE TO OTHER DEPARTMENTS, BUT WE FIND OUT THAT A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY, A LACK OF DILIGENCE ON THE PART OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS MEAN THAT ACCOUNTABLE DOESN'T EXIST.

SOILED SAY THAT ACCOUNTABILITY HAS TO BE -- SO I WOULD SAY THAT ACCOUNTABILITY HAS TO BE INCREASED, BUT THE WAY TO DO IT TRANSFORM TIFL IS THE WAY WE USE OUR COMMUNITY VOICE AND INVOLVE OUR CIVILIANS IN OVERSIGHT ROLES IN HOW WE DO PUBLIC SAFETY.

>> WENDY, I WOULD GIVE YOU TWO ANSWERS.

FIRST IS SORT OF A TEXTBOOK OR LAW SCHOOL CLASSROOM ANSWER AND THE SECOND ONE, HEARKENING BACK TO MY EARLIER COMMENT.

THE REASON VERY OFTEN THAT THOSE TYPES OF EVIDENTIARY ITEMS ARE NOT ADMISSIBLE IS THERE GENERAL RI ARE EVIDENTIARY RESTRICTIONS ON PRIOR BAD ACTS, AND THE RULES ARE RATHER COMPLEX, BUT THERE'S A RELUCTANCE ON THE COURTS TO ALLOW PRIOR BAD ACTS TO COME INTO EVIDENCE.

NOW, HAVING SAID THAT, THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT, BACK SIMILAR TO MY COLLOQUY WITH BILL.

WHAT IF SOME STATES GOT TOGETHER AND AMONG OTHER PIECES OF THE MOSAIC TILE TO FIND SOLUTIONS, THEY BEGAN TO DEVELOP A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT RULES OF EVIDENCE IN THE CONDUCT OF CRIMINAL TRIALS INVOLVING POLICE MISCONDUCT?

AND THE RULES OF EVIDENCE GOVERNING POLICE MISCONDUCT, MAYBE THEY'RE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TO INCLUDE THE PRIOR BAD ACTS, THE THINGS DAVID WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT.

THERE'S NO REASON THAT RULES OF EVIDENCE CANNOT BE ADJUSTED TO GET AT THE ROOT, FROM THE LEGAL PROCESS STANDPOINT, OF THESE PROBLEMS.

BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE CAN ALL AGREE ON TWO THINGS.

THE SUN IS GOING TO RISE IN THE EAST TOMORROW AND THE MEN AND WOMEN OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO ARE OUT THERE DOING THE JOB RIGHT NOW TO PROTECT US, THEY NEED OUR SUPPORT, BUT THEY ALSO NEED, THOSE WHO BRING ILL TO THE BADGE, THEY NEED THE COURT SYSTEM AND SOCIETY TO DEAL WITH THOSE SWIFTLY AND FAIRLY, AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU'VE IDENTIFIED A PROBLEM, WENDY, RESTRICTIONS ON PRIOR BAD ACT TESTIMONY IN A CRIMINAL TRIAL, WELL, BY GOLLY, MAYBE SOME PEOPLE, CERTAINLY A LOT SMARTER THAN ME, COULD FORMULATE SOME SOLUTIONS TO MAKE THOSE TYPES OF PROSECUTIONS A LITTLE MORE OPEN, A LITTLE MORE TRANSPARENT, AND A LITTLE MORE, SHALL WE SAY, COMPREHENSIVE, WENDY.

>> MR. DWIGHT, IF I CAN FOLLOW UP ON YOUR THOUGHTS EARLIER ON MOVING RESOURCES MAYBE FROM THE POLICE TO HUMAN SERVICES, YOUR ORGANIZATION TWEETED SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT ON APRIL THE 12th ABOUT AN APRIL 13th CONFERENCE YOU WERE HOLDING, WHICH WAS CALLED DEFUND THE POLICE.

AND YOU TALKED ABOUT TAKING MONEY FROM POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO THINGS LIKE WI-FI AND RENTAL ASSISTANCE, BUT LAST YEAR, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS HAD NORTH OF 260 HOMICIDES.

AND LAST SUMMER, POLICE OFFICERS WERE SHOT AT 12 TIMES, TWO OF THEM FATALLY.

I'M WONDERING, IS THIS REALLY THE TIME THAT WE WANT TO TRANSFER MONEY FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT IS 150 OFFICERS SHORT OF A FULL COMPLEMENT?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION AND ACTUALLY A BLOCK THAT COMES UP FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT HOW TO TRANSFORM OUR PUBLIC SAFETY SYSTEM.

AND SO THAT EVENT WAS PART OF THIS NEW COALITION THAT'S FORMED BETWEEN FORWARD THROUGH FERGUSON, ARCH CITY DEFENDERS, ACTION ST. LOUIS AND THE COALITION AGAINST POLICE CRIMES AND OPPRESSION CALLED DE-CON, RE-ENVISION, TRANSFORM.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT VIOLENCE WHICH WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TOO MUCH OF IN OUR COMMUNITY AND IT CAUSES A HUGE AMOUNT OF TRAUMA, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT PART OF THAT VIOLENCE IS ALSO VIOLENCE THAT POLICE PERPETRATE ON COMMUNITIES.

LIKE I MENTIONED, WE'RE ONE OF THE TOP REGIONS IN THE COUNTRY FOR POLICE KILLINGS OF CIVILIANS.

WHEN IT COMES TO VIOLENCE AND SOLVING IT, POLICE ARE NOT A SOLUTION TO VIOLENCE.

POLICE ACTUALLY COME AFTER A VIOLENT INCIDENT HAS ALREADY OCCURRED, AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, OUR CLEARANCE RATES ARE SOME OF THE LOWEST IN THE COUNTRY WHEN IT COMES TO CLEARING HOMICIDES.

AND SO EVEN IF WE WERE TO INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF POLICE, IT STILL ACTUALLY WOULDN'T SOLVE FOR THE ROOT CAUSES OF VIOLENCE BECAUSE IT'S AN APPROACH AFTERWARD.

THE THINGS THAT CAUSE INCREASED VIOLENCE, HAPPENING IN SOME URBAN REGIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, HAS BEEN COVID, THE COVID PANDEMIC WAS LED TO INCREASE OF MURDERS IN A VARIETY OF LOCALITIES AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE WAYS THAT IT SQUEEZED PEOPLE'S ACCESS TO LIVING INCOME, THE WAYS THAT IT'S EXACERBATED HEALTH DISPARITIES, THE DIFFICULTY THAT'S OCCURRED AROUND HOUSING AND SHORTAGE OF AFFORDABLE AND FAIR HOUSING FOR PEOPLE AND A HUGE RISE IN THE NUMBER OF EVICTIONS.

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT BOTH LIVED EXPERIENCE FROM COMMUNITY MEMBERS WHEN WE TALK TO THEM AS WELL AS THE RESEARCH SHOW ARE THE THINGS THAT ACTUALLY LEAD TO HIGHER RATES OF CRIME.

WE'VE SEEN INCREASES IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BUDGET, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AMOUNT OF MILITARY WEAPONRY, INCREASES IN THE NUMBER OF POLICE OFFICERS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY BEEN SHOWN NOT TO BE TIED TO THE AMOUNT OF CRIME.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT WHY KEEP TRYING SOMETHING THAT WE KNOW IS NOT ACTUALLY SOLVING THE ROOT CAUSES WHEN WE CAN REINVEST IN THOSE ROOT CAUSES.

THE LAST THING THAT I'LL ADD THERE IS THE FERGUSON COMMISSION WAS CREATED AFTER THIS INCIDENT OF A KILLING OF A YOUNG UNARMED BLACK MAN, MICHAEL BROWN.

IN THE PROCESS AFTER THAT, THEY COULD HAVE JUST FOCUSED ON REFORMS TO POLICING, BUT ACTUALLY, THEY CAME BACK A YEAR LATER AFTER ENGAGING 2,000 COMMUNITY MEMBERS WITH A WHOLE SLEW OF RECOMMENDATIONS THAT COVERED WEALTH BUILDING, HOUSING, HEALTH, TRANSPORTATION, AND THAT'S BECAUSE FUNDAMENTALLY, WE KNEW THAT THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE NEED TO THRIVE AND THAT THESE SYSTEMS ARE CONNECTED.

SO I WOULD SAY WE ACTUALLY CAN'T AFFORD TO INVEST IN MORE POLICE AND ALLOW THIS VIOLENCE TO CONTINUE.

>> I WOULD ADD TO THAT, THAT SIMILAR TO MY COMMENT A MOMENT AGO, IS I'VE BEEN FRUSTRATED, I GUESS, AS A CITIZEN, BY SO MANY IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE GETTING HUNG UP ON THE TERMINOLOGY "DEFUND THE POLICE."

WHEN I WAS AN ACTIVE LAWYER, I HANDLED LARGE MULTI-BILLION-DOLLAR CORPORATE BANKRUPTCIES.

AND WHEN PEOPLE WOULD HEAR THE WORD "BANKRUPTCY," WELL, THIS COMPANY HAS FILED "BANKRUPTCY" AND ALL THE ATTENDANT THINGS FROM THAT, I THINK WHEN PEOPLE HEAR "DEFUND THE POLICE," THERE'S A SIMILAR CASCADE OF CONCLUSIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS AS TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

WELL, IN MY WORLD BACK IN THE DAY, WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT BANKRUPTCY.

WE TALKED ABOUT RESTRUCTURING AND REORGANIZATION.

AND WORDS HAVE MEANING, AND SO I WOULD HOPE THAT THOSE AMONG US WHO, IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE AND OTHERWISE, WHO ARE COMING UP WITH SOLUTIONS, WORDS HAVE MEANING AND I THINK THE SOONER WE CAN MOVE THE CONVERSATION AWAY FROM THIS NOTION OF DEFUNDING THE POLICE AND WHETHER IT'S, IN MY WORLD, RESTRUCTURING OR REORGANIZED POLICING AS DAVID HAS JUST BEEN POINTING OUT WITH SOME OF THE IDEAS, THAT -- I THINK THAT WOULD GO A LONG WAY TO GETTING US AS A BODY POLITIC CENTERED SO THAT WE CAN COME UP AFTER FOUR CENTURIES, FINALLY, WE CAN COME UP TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM OF RACISM AND POLICING.

>> BUT IF I COULD JUST JUMP IN, FORGIVE ME, DAVID IS THAT'S YOUR WORD, DEFUND.

DO YOU WANT TO USE THAT WORD?

>> YEAH, WE ACTUALLY ARE USING THAT WORD, BUT WE'RE PAIRING IT WITH A VARIETY OF OTHER THINGS.

THE CAMPAIGN IS CALLED DEFUND, RE-ENVISION, TRANSFORM VERY INTENTIONALLY, BUT THE REALITY OF IT IS DEFUND IS THE FIRST STEP.

IT HAS TO HAPPEN IN CONCERT WITH SOME OTHER THINGS, BUT WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO BREAK DOWN SYSTEMS THAT AREN'T SERVING US SO THAT WE CAN REIMAGINE AND CREATE NEW SYSTEMS IN THE PROCESS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT -- THE DEMANDS OF THE CAMPAIGN ARE NOT TO ZERO OUT NO THIS YEAR FROM POLICING, THOUGH I WOULD CHALLENGE US TO THINK ABOUT A WORLD 20, 25 YEARS FROM NOW WHERE WE'VE COMPLETELY RESTRUCTURED HOW WE THINK ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY, BUT WE DO THINK THAT THAT'S AN ESSENTIAL FIRST STEP TO STOP INVESTING IN THINGS THAT ARE CREATING HARM FOR A LOT OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

POLICE KILLINGS, AS HORRIBLE AND DEVASTATING AS THEY ARE, AND IT WAS MENTIONED EARLIER RIGHT AFTER THE VERDICT OF THE CHAUVIN TRIAL, THERE WERE ANOTHER SET OF KILLINGS OF BLACK PEOPLE, INCLUDING A 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL, MA'KHIA BRYANT, IT'S REALLY TIME THAT WE'RE STARTING TO DEFUND FROM THOSE SYSTEMS, AGAIN, THE IMPACTS BEYOND JUST THE ACTUAL KILLINGS TO BEATINGS THAT HAPPEN, TO INDIGNITIES EVERY DAY AND START INVESTING IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

WHY KEEP INVESTING IN THINGS THAT AREN'T WORKING.

>> ALVIN.

>> DAVID, AND ALSO TO YOU PROFESSOR -- PROFESSOR, I'LL START WITH YOU BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH LAW STUDENTS AND MAYBE YOU HEAR THIS, THAT ONE OF THE REASONS I WANT TO BECOME AN ATTORNEY IS TO, YOU KNOW, PROTECT PEOPLE FROM THE POLICE, I HATE THE POLICE.

AND DAVID, I WOULD IMAGINE IN YOUR JOB AND YOUR ROLE, YOU PROBABLY TALK TO YOUNG PEOPLE.

WHEN A YOUNG PERSON SAYS TO YOU, I HATE THE POLICE, WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THEM?

>> ONE MINUTE TO GO.

>> I'M SORRY, I WOULD HAVE MADE THE QUESTION SHORTER.

>> WELL, QUICKLY, IN THE CLASSROOM, ALVIN, I'VE TAUGHT NOW IN THE CLASSROOM FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS AND THERE IS AN INCREASING FOCUS ON WHATEVER NOMENCLATURE WE WANT TO USE, BUT IN PUBLIC DEFENDER WORK, IN CIVIL RIGHTS WORK, IN POLITIC POLICY REFORM.

WE JUST HAD AN AWARDS CEREMONY LAST NIGHT AND THE STUDENT OF THE YEAR AT ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL, THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE THAT WONDERFUL YOUNG WOMAN IS HEADED, AND WE ALL SHOULD TAKE GREAT PRIDE IN IT.

SO I THINK THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT GLIM NER OF HOPE IN THAT -- GLIMMER OF HOPE IN THAT REGARD, ALVIN.

>> I'M ATRIED THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THIS EDITION OF NEXT UP.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, GREG WILLARD, PROFESSOR WILLARD, AND DAVID DWIGHT IV, WE APPRECIATE THE TIME YOU SHARED WITH US ON NINE PBS.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANKS VERY MUCH, CHARLIE.

>> THANKS, EVERYBODY FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK AT THIS TIME.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK BE MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.