- [Narrator] A look back at the heyday of Gaslight Square when some newcomers named Smothers and Streisand were on the bill at the Crystal Palace.

- Gaslight Square.

A shining moment there in St. Louis.

- [Narrator] The local business that turns this into this.

- [Stacey] Finished compost, ready to throw in your garden.

- [Narrator] A composting operation with door-to-door service.

♪ Where I've been - Yeah!

- Dynamic, celebrated, legendary.

Look up jazz singer Denise Thimes and the superlatives just keep coming.

- I've paid some wonderful dues and I'm still paying my dues.

- [Narrator] And remembering Hall of Fame baseball manager, Whitey Herzog, and the day we talked about how it all began.

- Then I, later on, I start skipping school, go to Sportsman's Park.

- [Narrator] It's all next on "Living St.

Louis."

(upbeat jazz music) (upbeat jazz music continues) (upbeat jazz music continues) - I'm Ruth Ezell.

In a city known for making beautiful music of all stripes, there's a vocalist who embodies the excellence of St. Louis's jazz scene.

And in a conversation with this distinguished artist, I learned how Denise Thimes became Denise Thimes.

She's St. Louis jazz royalty with a voice that's beloved far beyond our borders.

♪ I guess you're wondering where I've been ♪ - [Audience Member] Yeah!

♪ Searched to find the love within, yeah ♪ ♪ I came back to let you know ♪ Got a thing for you ♪ And I can't let it go - [Ruth] Denise Thimes was raised in a family with a history of performing before audiences.

Her father, the late Lou "Fatha" Times, was a pioneering and influential disc jockey who spent most of his radio career at KATZ AM, playing gospel music and the blues.

- I just grew up with music and listening to my dad on the radio.

And of course, everybody knows Aretha Franklin was my favorite.

I wanted to be Aretha Franklin.

- And like Aretha Franklin, Denise Thimes's love of music was nurtured in church.

In fact, she originally planned a career singing gospel until she developed polyps on her vocal cords and had to be hospitalized.

- So when I got out of the hospital, I went to my dad's library of albums.

I pulled out Carmen McRae, I pulled out Sarah Vaughan, I pulled out Nancy Wilson, Irene Reid, Doris Day, and an array of singers.

And it was almost like, you know, the three little bears stories, like, "This little singer's too high, and this little singer's too low, but this singer is just right."

And that was Carmen McRae.

So that's who I listened to.

I forgot all the rest of her albums and I start learning jazz.

But what I didn't know at the time, Ruth, was that it didn't matter the type of music that I was singing, and I'm saying this to the vocalists that are listening out there.

It doesn't matter what type of music you sing, if you're not singing it correct and if you're not hydrating your vocal chords, even when talking, during talking, as well as singing, that can destroy your vocal chords, it can lead to polyps.

We have to be careful with the wear and tear on our vocal chords.

So you can't go, ah, ah, ah, and screaming, football games, things like that.

I don't even go because I can't scream.

So those type of things.

So I learned, I discovered that it was vocal maintenance more so than anything.

But at the time, I just thought, because I was singing all these gut-wrenching gospel tunes, that's why I developed my polyps.

But that was not the case.

But that is what led me to jazz.

♪ Give me one reason to stay here ♪ ♪ I'll turn right back around - Where did she go to high school?

Thimes is a graduate of Sumner, class of '78.

Known as Niecy to Classmates, she sang in the acapella choir and served on the student council.

After Sumner, Denise Thimes went on to Spelman College, a private HBCU in Atlanta.

A 1984 article about Thimes titled, "Three Views of a Strong Woman," was published in the college's alumni magazine.

The article highlighted the drama major's senior year performances.

Thimes remained in Atlanta after graduation.

- From there, I started working in professional theater in Atlanta with Jomandi Theater Company and Just US Theater Company.

And those were the two African American theater companies that were very affluent at the time.

And so I did a lot of things with that and I did "Ma Rainey's Black Bottom," which was by August Wilson.

As I was doing those things, I was still working part-time jobs.

And then I worked a full-time job, and I was a recruiter for one of the HBCUs there.

And then I got the opportunity to get casted in the show at Jomandi, quit my job (laughs).

Did that show, and afterwards, there was not another show to go to.

And so from that point, things got difficult, and I was staying at some of my, you know, fellow classmates houses, and you know how college kids, that college kid thing was still in me at the time.

And so it would be like five or six of us deep in one apartment, in a one bedroom apartment.

That went on for a while and then I decided I was gonna come back to St. Louis, I didn't want to continue to live that way, and just try to figure out what was I going to do.

- That decision paid off.

Over the years, Thimes has performed in a long string of productions, including several staged by the St. Louis Black Repertory Company.

Another play by August Wilson, "Joe Turner's Come and Gone," is among them.

And as she was developing her theatrical resume, Thimes was building another as a singer.

If you're a hardcore jazz fan with a good memory, you may recognize the building behind me at the corner of Rosalie and Pope.

It used to be the Moose Lounge.

Denise Thimes sang there early in her professional career.

- Because there was something about the Moose Lounge and jazz at that time.

And my mother was a little reluctant, and she was saying, "Well, I don't know," and you know, this and that and that.

I said, "Mom, it's a rites of passage.

You have to do the Moose Lounge if you're gonna do jazz."

So my brothers, the Bosman Twins, they would always receive me open arms and let me sit in and perform there until the owner actually gave me a date on my own.

And that was really where I found my voice, and especially in jazz.

- [Ruth] The late trumpeter and jazz educator, Clark Terry, along with his wife, were also supporters of Thimes.

- So I met Mr. Terry in the winter of his life, and so I wasn't able to do a lot of things with him.

His wife, Gwen, decided to do the Clark Terry Jazz Festival in her hometown.

So I had a chance, the opportunity, to do the very first Clark Terry Jazz Festival, which was a lot of fun and just incredible.

So he is and was an incredible man, and his wife is pretty darn special too.

- [Ruth] With success came some surprises.

Remember when Denise Thimes said she wanted to be Aretha Franklin?

Well, she may have done the next best thing, after her idol saw Thimes perform at a birthday party.

Aretha Franklin then called Thimes to ask her to sing at the Queen of Soul's own birthday bash in 2014.

- When she called me, the number came through, you know, like as if it was a spam or, you know, and I answered the phone a little abrupt.

"Hello?"

And the call, the voice on the other end said, "Hello, may I speak with Denise?"

And I said, "Speaking."

And she says, "Denise, hi, this is Aretha Franklin."

And I paused and I paused and I paused and I said, "Hello, Ms.

Franklin."

And she said, "I saw you at Hall's birthday party and blah, blah, blah, and I want you to sing for my 72nd birthday party that's gonna be in New York City."

And I said, "Yes, ma'am."

And she says, "And you know, I really like what I heard, and blah, blah, blah."

I said, "Yes, ma'am."

She said, "What's all this yes ma'am stuff?

You're no spring chicken."

(Denise and Ruth laugh) I said, "Yes, ma'am."

(laughs) - [Ruth] Another thrilling experience for Thimes happened several years earlier during a visit to the US by Queen Elizabeth II.

Thimes sang at a private dinner gala for the Queen at the British Embassy attended by President George W. Bush and other dignitaries.

- [Denise] I'm still pinching myself.

What a grand opportunity that was.

- Like many of us, Thimes has coped with the loss of loved ones.

Her mother, Mildred Thimes, died of pancreatic cancer in 1997.

The experiences of Mildred and her family inspired Denise to establish the Mildred Thimes Foundation for Pancreatic Cancer.

The foundation provides direct financial assistance to pancreatic cancer patients and their families for immediate necessities, like prescriptions, personal care items, food, even childcare, while patients are being treated.

- Repeat after me.

Yes, yes.

Come on ladies.

- [Ruth] This was the foundation's 27th annual Mother's Day concert honoring Mildred Thimes presented at the Sheldon Concert Hall in 2023.

- I just cannot really say thank you enough to all of you.

- A related event is the annual Women's Awards fundraising luncheon, which honors women doctors and nurses in the field of oncology.

These days, Denise Thimes makes her home base in Chicago, but her hometown is still close to her heart and she frequently returns to St. Louis to perform and fundraise.

- I've paid some wonderful dues and I'm still paying my dues, but I am very grateful for where things are in my life, and I look forward to all of the other wonderful things that are getting ready to happen.

- How about it, ladies and gentlemen?

For the one and only Ms. Denise Thimes!

How about it for Ms. Denise Thimes!

The one and only Ms. Denise Thimes!

(typewriter clacking) - [Narrator] In April of 1961, 63 years ago this week, some new acts were playing at the Crystal Palace in Gaslight Square.

New names to the general public back then, well known to us today.

The Smothers Brothers were the headliners.

An 18-year-old cabaret singer by the name of Barbra Streisand, who hadn't yet dropped the middle A, was the opening act.

They had both just recently appeared for the first time on national television on Jack Parr's "Tonight Show."

And that was giving a boost to their young careers, but they weren't so famous yet as to demand top salaries.

Crystal Palace owner, Jay Landesman, had an eye for young talent.

In her new autobiography, Barbra Streisand recalled the stained glass and chandeliers of the Crystal Palace.

She said it was the fanciest place she'd played in so far.

After her opening set, she said she enjoyed watching the Smothers Brothers folk music comedy act from the back of the room.

- There was about a five, six year period, a shining moment there in St. Louis.

- [Narrator] Tommy Smothers, who died this past December, was interviewed in a local documentary and remembered the Crystal Palace, Jay Landesman, and the whole Gaslight Square scene.

- All of us were just like, Gaslight Square.

I mean, everybody there was into something.

I mean either a writer or a poet or a something.

And it was just full of interesting people.

- [Narrator] One of those interesting people was Fran Landesman, Jay's wife, who came back to St. Louis in 2008 to perform her own cabaret show.

But back in '61, she too was something of an up and comer as a lyricist.

- But once we opened that bar and I met Tommy Wolf, who got me started on the whole songwriting career, I blossomed, and then also bringing Lenny Bruce and baby Barbra Streisand and all those people.

- [Narrator] And Barbra Streisand remembered her and her song, "Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most," and added it to her repertoire.

This was the heyday of Gaslight Square.

Then it became more commercialized, more touristy, less bohemian, less edgy.

Before its eventual decline, Jay and Fran Landesman had moved on to London.

And the Smothers Brothers and Barbra Streisand, they did pretty for themselves.

The reviews here in 1961 were good.

The Smothers Brothers were called one of the funniest acts seen in a long time.

And Barbra Streisand, it was said, was especially good with sultry ballads and showed considerable promise.

When these up and comers opened at Gaslight Square's Crystal Palace, this week in St. Louis history, 63 years ago.

- Our next story by Veronica Mohesky is about one of the more unusual door-to-door services around.

It's a household trash to garden treasure service.

- [Veronica] For many people, scraps or expired food ends up in a trash can.

But for John and Stacey Cline inedible food and waste is key to producing what they call black gold.

Rich, dark compost.

- We say if it grows, it goes.

And so if it was living at some point, we will take it.

- [Veronica] Since 2020, John and Stacey Cline have run a composting service called New Earth Farm.

- We bring a four gallon green bucket, rectangular buckets, and they fill it up with all their food waste, whatever they have that's organic in their home that's gone bad.

They fill it up with that and then we collect that bucket every week or two weeks based on their needs.

- [Veronica] That waste is then used to make compost.

- There's a few things you need, which would be water and air, and you need enough greens, which is not just green vegetables, but enough of the nitrogen rich food scraps, and enough browns, which are the carbon rich wood chips, you know, dry leaves, that kind of thing.

- [Veronica] Once you have the right amount of browns and greens, the compost pile needs oxygen and moisture to process.

Water can be added, and every few days, the pile can be mixed with a shovel to add oxygen.

Stacey and John showed us how they compost at their learning lab in Old North.

Here, New Earth Farm educates student groups and community members about the process.

One of the most interesting aspects of composting is the heat it produces.

- If we run around and we start to get hot and sweaty and breathe more, same thing happens with the bacteria.

And when that happens, the temperature goes up in that bin and you'll get to 131 degrees and kind of just like you're cooking something in the oven, if you cook it long enough, you're gonna kill all the weed seeds, which you don't want growing out of your compost, fly larvae and other nuisance like that, and then also pathogens.

- [Veronica] After three to six months, the compost is ready for the final step, sifting through the finished product to remove large objects and pieces that may need more time to process, like bones.

- [Stacey] The fine stuff comes out the bottom and this is, you know, finished compost, ready to throw in your garden.

- [Veronica] Unlike a household compost bin, New Earth Farm can accept dairy and meat food waste.

- At home, you probably don't want to compost, like, meat or dairy or things that tend to go putrid pretty quickly.

It might tend to attract more rodents.

It might cause a nuisance for your neighbors.

- [Veronica] But even at their learning lab, they compost a small percentage of the waste they receive.

Because they collect so much, they send most of it to industrial facilities.

- So we probably take in around six to 7,000 pounds a week through all of our services.

But typically a household will divert, you know, 12, 14 pounds a week is pretty average.

- [Veronica] Their service reaches all of St. Louis City and some of the county, and it includes residential and commercial subscribers.

John says their service helps prevent extra waste from being thrown away, which he says is important, because food waste can't properly break down in a landfill.

- Something like maybe up to two thirds of the waste that goes to a landfill is compostable, whether that's paper products or food waste.

Food waste is the single largest category of waste in the landfill.

So we, we're making sure that's not being thrown and rather it's getting composted, that bacteria and fungi are breaking it down, and turning it into a nutrient rich soil amendment so that can be put back on flower beds, gardens, and so forth locally.

- [Veronica] Some of the compost they create actually goes back to their subscribers, too.

- In the spring and in the fall, we give 'em a 30 pound bag of compost back just as kind of the compost give back program.

- Compost is great for remediating soil and it's wonderful when people are like, "I wanna do a community garden.

I wanna start a garden," but where are you putting that garden?

And compost can really help with that.

- So we're just trying to cooperate with what nature's already doing.

It's part of being greener in St. Louis and using what we have that's already here that's a resource.

- Finally, we mark the passing of former Cardinals manager, Whitey Herzog.

The man who took the Cardinals to three World Series in the 1980s passed away April 15th at the age of 92.

Back in 2003, he sat down with Jim Kirchherr and Alvin Reid on our interview program, "In the Loop."

- That gives each kid 20 bucks.

- [Narrator] Whitey Herzog was retired when he joined us, along with sports writer, Rob Rains, whose book had just come out, "Whitey's Boys" about the 1982 World Series Champions.

- Had the game explained to us.

- [Narrator] The Cardinals were just one of four major league teams that Herzog managed, but the connection to the Cardinals went way back.

You grew up in New Athens.

- Right.

- Southern, outside of Bellville, down there in southern Illinois.

- Right.

- You came to Sportsman Park as a kid.

What was your experience growing up with baseball?

- Well, the first ball, Major League ball game I ever saw, was Cardinals and Dodgers.

And that was in 1941.

I was 10 years old.

That was the day that Mickey Owen and Walker Cooper got in a fight.

Then I, later on, I started skipping school a lot and hitchhiking over to Bellville and taking the bus for a dime over to, Edgemont bus over to St. Louis.

- But it paid off.

- And then a street car out to Grand and then get a transfer and go over to Dodier and go to Sportsman's Park.

The Cardinals and the Browns were here.

The Yankees were kind of my favorite team.

Nick Etten was my idol and Stan Musial was my idol.

And I always tell Stan, and he's one of the greatest persons I've ever met, that he ruined my career 'cause once I seen him play, I copied his stance, and I was never worth a darn enough to hit.

- Which is great, and I mean, you made the show.

- I was fortunate enough, I got nine years in as a player, and was never a good enough to play every day.

I was maybe like a platoon player or an extra guy, but I did work hard and I hustled all the time.

I think that's why I stayed in the big leagues as long as I did.

- Well and you learned from Casey Stengel.

You've passed on that, not tradition, but that knowledge.

Do you see that continuing?

Or are you sort of the last breed of Casey's boys?

- Well, the problem with that is, I think in the years gone by, and I'm not an old timer and I'm still an optimistic guy, I always look for the good things in the future and so forth.

But today, we only pay ball players by home runs, RBI's, batting average.

We only pay pitchers by wins and losses and ERA.

We don't ever say, "This guy's a good guy.

This guy gets to the park on time.

This guy hustles all the time.

This guy goes from first to third on every base hit to center field and right field."

We don't say, "This outfielder hits the cutoff man all the time."

All the little things that help you win ball games that Casey Stengel stressed so much are never mentioned anymore contract time.

- As a manager for so many years, okay, do you think, A, you could go back, and could you handle guys today?

- Oh, I don't think I'd have any trouble handling people and I don't think that that would be a thing at all.

I know they're a little bit different, but if you're gonna get on 'em a little bit about doing fundamentally things correctly, you gotta do it.

And you gotta be the same way for the stars you're gonna be with the rookies.

You can't deviate and let a star not run outta the ball and then get on a rookie for not hustling down to first base.

- Don't you think- - [Narrator] But Herzog wasn't just old school.

In a changing era with AstroTurf fields, he built modern teams, playing what was termed Whitey ball with emphasis on speed and defense.

Of his Cardinals teams, Herzog said he thought the 1985 team was the best, even if they lost the World Series to the Kansas City Royals in seven games.

But as we all know, they should have won.

Well, the people may not remember the '85 team, but they remember the call in game six, Don Denkinger.

You probably hear that every day.

- I hear a lot about it.

I had dinner with Mr. Denkinger and his wife down in the Virgin Islands when we were down at a golf tournament.

- That was neutral territory or?

- Well, he, you know, he's a human being.

And I'll be very honest, I managed five years over in the other league and I thought he was one of the better umpires over there.

And I never had got kicked out by him.

I never had trouble with him and he blew a call.

I mean, that's human nature.

He blew the call.

Unfortunately, we didn't have replay.

We couldn't overturn it.

So what were we gonna do?

Now, if that happens during the season, it's July, you can get it back.

But when that happens in the six game of the World Series, when you know that your starter has pitched 200 odd innings on three days rest all year, you know his shoulder's bothering him, and you know you don't have Lahti, you know your bullpen's pretty well depleted.

- [Narrator] Herzog at the time, this was 2003, felt the bad call and losing the series might keep him out of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

He was on the ballot and the vote was coming up.

- I don't know whether that's ever gonna happen to me, but I know that maybe the call in Kansas City kept me from getting there.

To get elected, you need 64 votes, I think.

That's a lot of votes, don't get me wrong.

But I've played a lot of different places.

I played with a lot of those guys that are Hall of Famers and I've had a lot of phone calls.

Now whether those guys are all telling the truth that they said they voted, fine.

- [Narrator] He didn't get in that year, but Whitey Herzog was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame and inducted in 2010.

- Not popping my own horn or anything like that, but one scene.

- [Narrator] We talked, what else?

A lot of baseball that day about the Cards and the Cubs and Royals and Dodgers, about Stan the Man and Ozzie, and Whitey's boss, Cardinal's owner, Gussy Busch.

- My relationship with Gussy Busch was something that, I guess it spoiled me.

I think that when he passed away, that I knew I would never have a relationship or a working relationship with anybody like that again.

- [Narrator] And now Whitey Herzog is gone too, at the age of 92.

The kid from New Athens, Illinois, who lives on in the Baseball Hall of Fame, wearing a St. Louis Cardinals cap.

- [Whitey] Just let me do it the way I want to do it and we'll go from there.

- And that's "Living St.

Louis."

As always, we welcome your thoughts and ideas.

You can reach out to us at NinePBS.org/LSL.

I'm Ruth Ezell.

Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat jazz music) (upbeat jazz music continues) (upbeat jazz music continues) - [Announcer] "Living St. Louis" is funded in part by the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.