>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": THE DEATH OF ANDREW BROWN, JR., IN NORTH CAROLINA -- AN EXECUTION, HIS FAMILY NOW SAYS -- IS JUST ONE OF THE MANY POLICE KILLINGS WE'VE SEEN SINCE THE MURDER TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN BEGAN.

IS CHANGE EVER GOING TO COME?

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK JOINS ME.

THEN, LATER, CARIOL HORNE, A FORMER POLICE OFFICER IN BUFFALO, NEW YORK, WHO JUST SUED FOR BACK PAY AND WON, 15 YEARS AFTER SHE WAS FIRED FOR -- GET THIS -- STOPPING A FELLOW OFFICER FROM USING A CHOKEHOLD ON A BLACK MAN ALREADY IN HANDCUFFS.

A MAN WHO, LIKE GEORGE FLOYD, ERIC GARNER, AND MANY OTHERS, SAID HE COULDN'T BREATHE.

I'LL TALK TO HORNE AND HER ATTORNEY, HARVARD'S RON SULLIVAN.

>>> IN ELIZABETH CITY, NORTH CAROLINA, TODAY, THE FAMILY OF YET ANOTHER BLACK MAN SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE CAME OUT TO DEMAND TRANSPORTATION AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES SHOT ANDREW BROWN, JR., FIVE TIMES LAST WEEK WHILE EXECUTING A WARRANT.

AND TODAY ATTORNEYS FOR BROWN'S FAMILY SAID AN INDEPENDENT AUTOPSY SHOWS BROWN HAD TURNED AWAY FROM DEPUTIES AND WAS PREPARING TO DRIVE OFF WHEN THEY FIRED THE FATAL SHOT.

>> NOW, YOU ALL KNOW FROM THE DEATH CERTIFICATE THAT IT WAS A PENETRATING WOUND TO THE HEAD.

BUT, ATTORNEY SELLERS, WHAT THEY DID NOT KNOW WAS THAT IT WAS A KILL SHOT TO THE BACK OF THE HEAD.

>> TO MY POPS: MAN, YESTERDAY I SAY HE WAS EXECUTED.

THIS AUTOPSY REPORT SHOWED ME THAT WAS CORRECT.

IT'S OBVIOUS HE WAS TRYING TO GET AWAY.

IT'S OBVIOUS.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO SHOOT IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD.

>> Braude: THE F.B.I.

IS NOW INVESTIGATING THE SHOOTING FOR CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, AND BROWN'S FAMILY IS PUSHING FOR POLICE TO RELEASE ALL DASH CAM, BODY CAM, AND SURVEILLANCE VIDEO OF THE ENCOUNTER.

THIS SHOOTING CAME JUST A DAY AFTER A MINNEAPOLIS JURY FOUND DEREK CHAUVIN GUILTY ON ALL THREE CHARGES FOR KILLING GEORGE FLOYD LAST MAY.

AND AS ONE OF THE BROWN FAMILY'S ATTORNEYS, BAKARI SELLERS, POINTED OUT YESTERDAY, THIS IS ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL HIGH-PROFILE POLICE KILLINGS WE'VE SEEN IN JUST THE PAST FEW WEEKS ALONE.

ONLY IN THIS COUNTRY CAN YOU HAVE THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN BE INTERPRETED BY THE DEATH OF DAUNTE WRIGHT, BE INTERRUPTED BY THE DEATH OF ADAM TOLEDO, BE INTERPRETED BY THE DEATH OF MA'KHIA BRYANT, AND NOW WE FIND OURSELVES HERE IN ELIZABETH CITY.

>> Braude: SO WHILE MANY HAVE HOPED CHAUVIN'S CONVICTION WOULD MOVE THE NEEDLE OF JUSTICE, A LARGE NUMBER OF DOUBTERS REMAIN.

I'M JOINED NOW BY FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK.

>> Braude: GOVERNOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

RIGHT AFTER YOU DESCRIBED DOUBTERS -- BUT I GET THE POINT.

>> Braude: WHERE WERE YOU, FOR STARTERS, WHEN THE CHAUVIN VERDICT CAME DOWN, AND WHAT WAS YOUR IMMEDIATE REACTION?

>> I WAS AT HOME HERE IN WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS.

I HAD AN APPOINTMENT, ONE OF THESE ZOOM THINGS, AT AROUND THAT TIME, AND I WAS GOING TO DO MY BEST TO KEEP THAT APPOINTMENT AND COLLECT THE NEWS WHEN THE NEWS WAS NEWS.

BUT AS WE GOT CLOSER, MY ANXIETY LEVEL WENT UP.

JIM, NOT BECAUSE I DIDN'T BELIEVE WHAT I HAD SEEN, NOT BECAUSE MILLIONS OF AMERICANS AND MILLIONS-AROUNDMILLIONSAROUND THE WORLD DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WE SAW, BUT BECAUSE MORE THAN ONCE JURIES AND OTHERS HAVE LOOKED THE OTHER WAY.

AS LAWYERS SAY, THE EVIDENCE HAD COME IN WELL, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THE CASE WAS PRESENTED IN SUCH A STRONG WAY, BUT ALSO ANXIOUS.

SO I CANCELED MY APPOINTMENT AND I STARED AT THE TV, THROUGH ALL OF THE REPETITION, WHILE WE WERE WAITING FOR THE VERDICT.

AND, REMEMBER, IT WAS 10 MINUTES, THE JURY WAS IN, THE JUDGE READ THE VERDICT, TOOK THE CENSUS OF THE JURY, AND IT WAS DONE.

AND I EXHALED.

AND YOU HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY JUST THAT, I'M SURE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I'M SO GLAD YOU MENTIONED YOUR ANXIETY.

BECAUSE I, FOR ONE, WAS CONVINCED THE JURY WAS GOING TO CONVICT ON THE LEAST SERIOUS OF THE CHARGES, ANK AND ACQUIT ON THE OTHER TWO.

AND WE JUST WITNESSED, MAYBE A THOUSAND TIMES, SADLY IN THE LAST YEAR, A MAN TORTURED AND EXECUTED RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR EYES, AND SO MANY OF US HAD THAT ANXIETY.

AND PEOPLE LIKE ME WERE CONVINCED THE ANXIETY WAS MERITED, THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO GET EVEN AN OUNCE OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

SO ARE WE MAKING TOO MUCH OF THOSE THREE CONVICTIONS, WHEN THERE REALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ANY OTHER POSSIBLE OUTCOME?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, TRIAL BY JURY AND THE SYSTEM PRESUMES THAT WE DON'T KNOW THE OUTCOME UNTIL WE HAVE THE OUTCOME.

THIS WAS DIFFERENT IN THE SENSE THAT WE ALL SAW IT.

BUT THE DEFENSE OFTEN MADE, IN CASES OF THIS KIND, AND IN CASES OF THIS KIND THAT I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN, IS THAT SO MUCH MORE HAPPENS OUTSIDE THE SITE OF ANY VAP ANY VIDEOTAPE OR EYE WITNESS.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE ALL COMING TO TERMS WITH -- AND SOME OF US HAVE EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONALLY -- IS THAT THE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN WHAT IS IN THE OFFICIAL REPORT OF WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT IS DEMONSTRATED TO HAVE HAPPENED IN THE VIDEO REFERENCE IS OFTEN WIDE.

AND IT HAPPENS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

SO WHEN I HEAR CALLS IN THE CLIP YOU JUST PLAYED AROUND TRANSPARENCY, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS TOUGH BECAUSE, FRANKLY, THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY HAVE EARNED THE ACCEPT SKEPTICISM THAT THEY HAVE.

AND UNTIL THAT -- UNTIL TRUST IN THEIR OWN REPORTS IS EARNED BACK, THERE HAS TO BE TRANSPARENCY, AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE CONTINUED CALLS FOR IT.

>> Braude: HERE IS PART OF YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU ISSUED THAT DAY.

THE LIFE OF A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA MATTERS.

A MINNESOTA JURY SAID YES, AND THANK THE JURY AND THANK GOD.

THIS CONFIRMS THE DIGNITY OF ALL OF US, BUT IT CANNOT BRING GEORGE FLOYD BACK TO HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS, OR ANSWERS FOR THE NEEDLESS LOSS.

FOR SO MANY I'M THINKING OF THEM TONIGHT.

I SAW THAT AS A PRETTY OPTIMISTIC REACTION.

I DIDN'T FEEL THAT OPTIMISTIC.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT AFFIRMED THE DIGNITY OF US ALL?

>> BECAUSE, UM, AS I WAS SAYING EARLIER, IN CASES OF THIS KIND, SO OFTEN IT DOESN'T.

SO OFTEN THE DEFENSE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED OR DID NOT HAPPEN OFF CAMERA, SO OFTEN THE VICTIM'S LIFE HISTORY, THE FACT THAT HE WAS, OR SHE WAS, NOT A PERFECT PERSON, HAD SOME BLEMISH IN THEIR LIFE, AS IF THAT SOMEHOW JUSTIFIES JUDGE, JURY, AND EXECUTIONER RIGHT ON A CITY STREET, IN THE MATTER, IN THIS CASE, IN A LITTLE MORE THAN NINE MINUTES.

I THINK, NO, I DIDN'T FEEL AS IF ONE OUTCOME ERASED THE LONG COURSE OF INJUSTICE AND CONTINUING INJUSTICE OR CLOSED ALL OF THE OPEN QUESTIONS THAT ARE STILL OPEN, BUT I THINK IT WAS A START.

IN THE SAME WAY THAT I THINK THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE OF SO MANY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS TOOK TO THE STREETS IN PEACEFUL, OVERWHELMING PEACEFUL, PROTESTS OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEAR AND STAYED AT IT, DESPITE OUR NOTORIOUSLY SHORT ATTENTION SPAN IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT ISN'T THE PROMISED LAND, BUT IT IS A START.

AND IT IS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT WE BELONG TO EACH OTHER.

WE OWE THIS TO EACH OTHER.

NO MATTER WHAT OUR RACE OR BACKGROUND IS.

AND WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THE FACT THIS HAPPENS AN AWFUL LOT, AT A DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT AND UNJUST AMOUNT TO BLACK PEOPLE AND PARTICULARLY BLACK MEN.

>> Braude: BAKARI SELLERS A FEW MINUTES AGO MENTIONED ADAM TOLEDO AND ANDREW BROWN AND DAUNTE WRIGHT AND MIC MA'KHIA BRYANT.

NEARLY HALF OF REPUBLICANS IN THIS COUNTRY THINK THE JURY RENDERED THE WRONG VERDICT.

46% OF REPUBLICANS.

SO WHAT IS IT A START TOWARDS, GOVERNOR?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I UNDERSTAND THE TEMPTATION TO EVALUATE AND SORT OF CUT THE NUMBERS BY PARTY.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT.

WHAT I DO CARE ABOUT IS THAT WE START TO DEAL WITH SYSTEMS THAT ARE BROKEN, TRAINING MEM NESMS MECHANISMS THAT ARE INCOMPLETE.

THIS NOTION THAT WE CAN PRESUME THE WORST OF PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR BACKGROUND OR THEIR ATTITUDE OR THE NEIGHBORHOOD THEY LIVE IN, AND THAT ANY CONSEQUENCE AFTER THAT IS OKAY.

SOME OF THAT IS JUST EMBEDDED IN THE WAY WE PREPARE POLICE TO DO THEIR JOB.

AND IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM ACKNOWLEDGING AT THE SAME TIME, JIM, IT IS A HARD JOB.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT WE'VE ALSO MADE IT HARDER BY ASKING POLICE TO DO A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS.

WE USED TO HAVE NEIGHBORHOODS DO OR SOCIAL SERVICES DO, AND ISSUES AROUND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AROUND HOMELESSNESS AND SO ON, THAT SO EASILY ESCALATE.

AND A TRAINING THAT DOESN'T EMPHASIZE DE-ESCALATION.

WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL, AND THEN THERE IS A LOT OF WORK EACH OF US HAS TO DO IN OUR OWN HEARTS AND BEHAVIORS, NOT TURNING AWAY AND ACTUALLY FACING THESE REALITIES.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, PART OF THAT MAY BE IN THE PROVINCE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

I'M SURE YOU HEARD MERRICK GARLAND LAST WEEK TALKING ABOUT AN INVESTIGATION INTO MINNEAPOLIS, YESTERDAY INTO LOUISVILLE POLICE AFTER THE KILLING OF BREONNA TAYLOR.

>> THE CHALLENGES WE FACE ARE DEEPLY WOVEN INTO OUR HISTORY.

THEY DID NOT ARISE TODAY OR LAST YEAR.

BUILDING TRUST BETWEEN COMMUNITY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT WILL TAKE TIME AND EFFORT BY ALL OF US.

>> ALL OF THESE STEPS WILL BE TAKEN WITH ONE GOAL IN MIND: TO ENSURE THAT POLICING POLICIES AND PRACTICES ARE CONSTITUTIONAL AND LAWFUL.

>> Braude: HOW IMPORTANT COULD THOSE INVESTIGATIONS BE, GOVERNOR?

>> ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT.

AND I COMMEND MERRICK GARLAND AND HIS TEAM AND THE NOMINEE FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION FOR THEIR FOCUS ON THIS AND THEIR -- AND BOTH THE COMBINATION OF RIGOR AND RESTRAINT THAT THEY'LL BRING.

BY THAT, I MEAN, I KNOW MERRICK, AND I KNOW HE WILL ASSURE THAT HIS TEAM FOLLOWS THE FACTS, REALLY GETS INTO IT AND TRIES TO HEAR ALL SIDES AND UNDERSTAND THE REALITIES AND GO FROM THERE.

THAT'S IMPORTANT.

AND WE RESTRAINT IN THE SENSE OF NOT JUST TRYING TO BLOW UP A DEPARTMENT BECAUSE THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF IT THAT ARE DYSFUNCTIONAL.

AND THAT'S A HARD BALANCE, BUT THAT IS THE JOB.

AND I THINK MERRICK AND HIS TEAM ARE UP TO IT.

>> Braude: WHILE I HAVE YOU, CAN WE DISCUSS ANOTHER KIND OF -- I THINK IT IS APPROPRIATE TO CALL IT VIOLENCE DIRECTED AT THE RIGHT TO VOTE, CURRENTLY IN SOME STAGE, IN 43 STATES, MOST NOTABLY IN GEORGIA.

PEOPLE, I ASSUME, KNOW IN YOUR FORMER LIFE YOU WERE GENERAL COUNCIL OF A COUPLE MAJOR CORPORATIONS, ONE OF THEM BEING COCA-COLA, WHICH WAS RELATIVELY SILENT EARLY ON, AND THEN FINALLY DID CRITICIZE THE LAW DOWN THERE.

DO YOU SUPPORT -- OR DO YOU THINK THEY ARE AFFECTIVE, BOYCOTTS OF COMPANIES THAT ARE SILENT IN THE FACE OF THESE KIND OF BEHAVIOR BY OUR GOVERNMENTS?

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK -- I WANT TO COMMEND MANY, MANY COMPANIES AND BUSINESS LEADERS.

UNDER THE LEADERSHIP, BY THE WAY, INSTIGATED BY A FORMER C.E.O., A BLACK MAN, KEN SHANAL, FROM AMERICAN EXPRESS, AND A CURRENT C.E.O., ALSO A BLACK MAN, KEN FRASER OF MERCK, FOR ENGAGING THEIR COLLEAGUES AND OTHER LARGE AND SMALL BUSINESSES TO SPEAK OUT ON THIS AND TO MAKE IT PLAIN THAT THIS WAS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE; THIS IS ABOUT DEMOCRACY ITSELF.

AND, FRANKLY, IF YOU'RE A SERIOUS CAPITALIST AND YOU WANT A SUCCESSFUL ECONOMY, YOU SURE AS HECK BETTER CARE ABOUT A SERIOUS AND SUCCESSFUL DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THEY'RE INTERWOVEN IN THIS COUNTRY.

I DON'T THINK COMPANIES NEED TO HAVE A POINT OF VIEW ON EVERY ISSUE, BUT WHEN IT GETS RIGHT TO THE DEMOCRACY ISSUE, I THINK THEY SHOULD.

YOU ASKED ABOUT A BOYCOTT.

IT IS THE TRUTH OF THE WAY BUSINESS WORKS TODAY, YOU CAN CALL FOR A BOYCOTT OR NOT, BUT WHAT BUSINESSES DO OR DON'T DO IS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

AND CONSUMERS ARE MAKING CHOICES AROUND THAT.

IT WAS A THESIS OR THEORY BEHIND THE INVESTMENT FUND WE STARTED, AND SO MUCH OF INCLUSIVE CAPITALISM IS ABOUT.

THESE ARE SECULAR STRENDZ.

TRENDS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHETHER THERE ARE FORMAL CALLS FOR BOYCOTTS OR NOT.

>> Braude: WOULD YOU BOYCOTT A COMPANY THAT WAS SILENT IN THE FACE OF SUCH A LAW?

>> YES, PERSONALLY.

PERSONALLY, WOULD I MAKE THAT CHOICE, YES.

BECAUSE I HAVE THAT CHOICE.

BUT NOT EVERYBODY DOES.

BUT I CAN CHOOSE WHERE TO SPEND MY MONEY, WHICH PRODUCTS TO BUY, WHICH PLACES TO BE ON THE WHOLE.

BUT I GET IT.

I'VE BEEN ON THE INSIDE, TOO, AS YOU SAID, AND COMPANIES DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE SORT OF SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS OF EVERY ACTION THEY TAKE.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE ANSWER TO THIS SITUATION.

TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE JUST DON'T SPEAK UP, WE JUST DON'T ENGAGE.

THIS IS DIFFERENT.

THIS IS AN INTENTIONAL EFFORT TO DISENFRANCHISE OR TO COMPROMISE THE FRANCHISE FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OVERWHELMING WHO HAVE EXPRESSED SOME INTEREST IN VOTING FOR A DEMOCRAT IN THE LAST ELECTION.

IMAGINE THAT.

SO WE'RE GOING TO CLAMP DOWN ON THAT IN THE STRENGTH OF THE BIG LIE THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, WHEN, AFTER EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO PROVE THAT, UM, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN FAILED TO DO.

>> Braude: GOVERNOR, IN OUR LAST MINUTE, LET ME RETURN TO SOMETHING WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS BEING A START, WE HAVE ALL THROWN AROUND THE TERM "RACIAL RECKONING" SO GLIBLY, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE ASSOCIATION OF GEORGE FLOYD.

DO YOU BELIEVE IT IS COMING IN THIS COUNTRY OR DO YOU JUST HOPE IT IS COMING IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> I HAD HOPED IT WAS COMING BEFORE.

AND BY THE "IT," LET ME SAY I THINK IT IS ABOUT THOSE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS.

YOU KNOW -- AND THAT IS A PART OF THE BEGINNING, WHICH IS TO SAY WE'VE MADE ENORMOUS PROGRESS IN THIS COUNTRY ON A WHOLE HOST OF FRONTS, MUCH OF IT IN MY LIFETIME, JIM.

AND I THINK THAT IS ONE THING THAT WE AND OTHERS WHO CARE ABOUT SOCIAL JUSTICE MUST ACKNOWLEDGE.

IT IS WRONG TO SAY THAT WE ARE WHERE WE WERE WHEN I WAS BORN IN THE 19 50s.

WE ARE NOT.

AT THE SAME TIME, THIS IS ABOUT KEEPING REALITIES.

WE'VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO.

WE'VE MADE OF SORT AN UNEASY PEACE WITH INTEGRATION IN LAW.

BUT NOT IN ACTUALLY LIVING AND WORKING AND GOING TO SCHOOL TOGETHER.

EVERY TIME SOMEONE IS INTENTIONAL ABOUT THAT, THEY GET HAULED INTO COURT ON ALL KINDS OF CLAIMS ABOUT SO-CALLED REVERSE DISCRIMINATION.

THE PLAYING FIELD IS NOT EVEN.

AND IF EQUALITY AND OPPORTUNITY AND FAIR PLAY ARE THE BUILDING BLOCKS FOR FREEDOM, AND IF WE ARE ABOUT FREEDOM IN THIS COUNTRY, WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE FRACTORS IN FRACTURES IN THOSE BUILDING BLOCKS.

>> Braude: GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: AS WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, A MINNEAPOLIS JURY HELD DEREK CHAUVIN ACCOUNTABLE FOR GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER LAST WEEK.

AND IN AUGUST, THREE OTHER FORMER POLICE OFFICERS ARE SET TO STAND TRIAL FOR HIS DEATH, TOO.

THE THREE WILL FACE CHARGES OF AIDING AND ABETTING MURDER, AND MANSLAUGHTER FOR LOOKING ON AND DOING NOTHING AS CHAUVIN KNELT ON FLOYD'S NECK FOR NINE MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS, KILLING HIM.

AS RARE AS IT IS FOR OFFICERS LIKE CHAUVIN TO FACE CONSEQUENCES, IT'S RARER STILL FOR THOSE WHO FAIL TO INTERVENE.

IN FACT, IT'S OFTEN MORE LIKELY THAT OFFICERS WHO DO STEP IN TO STOP ABUSIVE OFFICERS ARE THE ONES WHO END UP PAYING THE PRICE.

INCLUDING FORMER POLICE OFFICER CARIOL HORNE, WHO STEPPED IN DURING A VERY SIMILAR CASE OF POLICE BRUTALITY IN BUFFALO, NEW YORK, 15 YEARS AGO.

AFTER HER INTERVENTION, SHE WAS REASSIGNED FROM HER POST, INVESTIGATED BY THE DEPARTMENT, AND ULTIMATELY FIRED, JUST A FEW MONTHS BEFORE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN ELIGIBLE FOR HER FULL PENSION.

AND AS FOR THE OFFICER SHE STOPPED?

HE KEPT HIS POST, WAS PROMOTED TO LIEUTENANT, AND SUED HORNE FOR DEFAMATION, WINNING $65,000 IN DAMAGES.

THAT IS UNTIL HE RESIGNED IN 2011 WHILE UNDER AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATION, WAS LATER SENTENCED TO FOUR MONTHS IN PRISON FOR USING EXCESSIVE FORCE ON FOUR BLACK TEENAGERS.

BUT THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD LAST MAY BROUGHT NEW ATTENTION TO HORNE'S CASE.

SHE BEGAN TO PUSH FOR A DUTY-TO-INTERVENE LAW THAT REQUIRES POLICE TO STEP IN.

AND LAST FALL THE BUFFALO CITY COUNCIL APPROVED SUCH A PROVISION, KNOWN AS CARIOL'S LAW.

SHE ALSO FILED A LAWSUIT LOOKING TO VACANT HER FIRING AND REINSTATE HER PENSION.

AND EARLIER THIS MONTH, THE NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT DID JUST THAT.

CARIOL HORNE JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH ONE OF HER ATTORNEYS, RON SULLIVAN, A HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR AND DIRECTOR OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE INSTITUTE AT HARVARD, WHO ALSO REPRESENTED AARON HERNANDEZ IN HIS SECOND MURDER TRIAL AND HELPED THE FAMILY OF MICHAEL BROWN WIN A SETTLEMENT FROM THE CITY OF FERGUSON, MISSOURI.

>> Braude: GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: CARIOL, WOULD YOU MIND DESCRIBING BRIEFLY WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY 15 YEARS AGO?

>> ON NOVEMBER 1st, 2006, HE WAS CHOKING, HE WAS IN HANDCUFFS.

ONCE WE GOT HIM OUTSIDE, WE WERE ON OUR WAY TO THE PATROL VEHICLE, AND HE WAS IN FRONT OF ME, AND HE JUST SWUNG NEIL MACK AROUND AND STARTED CHOKING HIM.

WHEN I YELLED TO HIM, GREG, YOUR CHOKING TO HIM.

HE DIDN'T STOP, SO I GRABBED HIS ARM FROM AROUND HIS NECK.

AND THEN I WAS EVENTUALLY FIRED FOR IT.

>> Braude: AND WHAT DID HE DO -- BY THE WAY, I SHOULD HAVE SAID NEIL MACK IS ALIVE BECAUSE OF YOUR INTERVENTION.

IT IS QUITE CLEAR, BASED ON WHAT I HAVE READ, HE WOULD NOT BE HAD YOU NOT HAD THE COURAGE TO CONFRONT YOUR FELLOW COP.

>> POSSIBLY.

>> Braude: CARIOL -- >> I DANT DIDN'T WANT THE CHANCE TO FIND OUT.

>> Braude: I THINK HE IS GLAD AND WE ALL ARE.

WHAT HAVE THE INTERVENING YEARS LIKE FOR YOU?

>> IT WAS AN EMOTIONAL ROLLER COASTER.

IT WAS A LOT OF UPS AND DOWNS.

MOSTLY DOWNS.

BECAUSE I FELT THAT THERE NEEDED TO BE A CHANGE WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

SO I WROTE A LAW, BUT I JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO GET IT PASSED.

>> Braude: UH-HUH.

>> UNTIL 2020 -- >> Braude: ULTIMATELY, YOU DID KNOW -- I'M SORRY.

CONTINUE.

I'M SORRY.

>> I'M SORRY.

I SAID, UNTIL 2020, WHEN IT WAS PASSED HERE IN BUFFALO, NEW YORK.

>> Braude: I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT LAW AND YOUR BELIEF THAT IT SHOULD BE REPLICATED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

AND I THINK MOST VIEWERS WOULD AGREE.

RON, THE JUDGE IN THIS DECISION CITED DR. KING, THE TIME IS ALWAYS RIGHT TO DO RIGHT.

AND FROM AFAR, IT SEEMS THAT HIS DECISION IN PART WAS BASED ON WHAT THOSE THREE COPS IN MINNEAPOLIS DID NOT DO BY CHAUVIN'S SIDE.

IS THAT A FAIR READING OF WHERE THE JUDGE CAME OUT?

>> I THINK THAT IS VERY FAIR.

THERE WERE -- IN APROPOS OF THAT, THERE WERE THESE T-SHIRTS I SAW IN BUFFALO, DURING THE COURSE OF THIS REPRESENTATION, AND THE T-SHIRTS READ: "GEORGE FLOYD NEEDED CARIOL HORNE."

YOU WERE RIGHT, NEIL MACK, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD WOULD HAVE BEEN DEAD, BUT FOR CARIOL INTERVENING AND DOING THE HUMAN THING AND STEPPING IN AND SAVING A LIFE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, CARIOL, I KNOW I'VE READ A LOT ABOUT YOU BELIEVING, AS I SAID A MINUTE AGO, THAT CARIOL'S LAW SHOULD BE THE LAW EVERYWHERE, AND I'M SURE YOU KNOW IN THE GEORGE FLOYD BILL PENDING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS, INTERVENTION WOULD BE MANDATED.

WE JUST PASSED THE LAW IN MASSACHUSETTS WHERE IT IS MANDATED.

I KNOW YOU ALSO THINK THERE SHOULD BE A NATIONAL REGISTRY, SO THAT A MISBEHAVING COP CAN'T JUST MOVE TO ANOTHER JURISDICTION AND START AFRESH ABUSING PEOPLE.

BUT ARE YOU CONVINCED, CAROL.

>> Holly:CARIOL HORNE, THAT LAWS WILL CHANGE THE TOXIC CULTURE THAT BAD COPS OPERATE UNDER?

>> I DEFINITELY THINK THAT IT COULD, AND ALSO WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE ME, WHO STOPPED POLICE BRUTALITY.

YOU HAVE SOMEONE LIKE RON, WHO FIGHTS FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO HAVE OTHER OFFICERS DO THE SAME THING.

AND THEN YOU HAVE A JUDGE WHO RULED IN OUR FAVOR TO BASICALLY HAVE THE OFFICERS DO THE SAME THING, BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

SO WE'RE CHIPPING AT IT LITTLE BY LITTLE.

AND WE ARE EVENTUALLY CHANGING THE OLD CULTURE.

>> Braude: DO YOU BUY THAT, RON?

YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS -- YOU WERE A FORMER HEAD OF A PUBLIC DEFENDER AGENCY IN D.C., AND YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

DO YOU BUY THE NOTION THAT VERDICTS LIKE THE ONE IN MINNEAPOLIS, VERDICTS LIKE THE ONE IN CARIOL'S CASE AND STATUTORY CASES CAN CHANGE THINGS, OR WILL BAD COPS JUST CONTINUE TO BE BAD COPS?

>> I THINK THEY CAN CHANGE THINGS.

WHAT CARIOL SAID IS IMPORTANT, "CHIPPING AWAY."

SO THIS IS NOT THE FINAL THING.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO MAKE A DRAMATIC CHANGE ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT IT IS ONE STEP, JUST ANOTHER, ANOTHER CHIP OFF OF THAT BLUE WALL OF SILENCE.

SO YOU TAKE THE VERDICT LAST WEEK, PLUS A DECISION LIKE THIS, AND PEOPLE FIGHTING AND CONTINUING TO FIGHT IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS, AND I DO THINK THAT OVER TIME THESE SORTS OF DECISIONS CAN CREATE SUCH A DISINCENTIVE FOR BAD BEHAVIOR THAT POLICE WILL BEHAVE RESPONSIBLY.

IT MAY NOT CHANGE THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS, BUT WE HOPE IT WILL CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR.

AND IF IT CHANGES THEIR BEHAVIOR, WE'LL HAVE MORE PEOPLE WALKING AWAY ALIVE FROM THESE SORTS OF POLICE ENCOUNTERS THAN WE DO PRESENTLY.

>> Braude: CARIOL, ONE OF THE MOST IMPRESSIVE PARTS OF THE FLOYD TRIAL, I THINK TO ALMOST EVERYBODY, WAS THE FACT THAT SO MANY COPS, INCLUDING THE TOP COP IN MINNEAPOLIS, TESTIFIED FOR THE PROSECUTION.

YOU RARELY SEE THAT.

DID ANY OF YOUR FELLOW POLICE OFFICERS COME TO YOUR DEFENSE 15 PLUS YEARS AGO WHEN YOU SAVED A LIFE AND KEPT NEIL MACK FROM A COP WHO WAS READY TO KILL HIM?

>> THEY COULDN'T.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE CARIOL'S LAW THEN.

IT WAS BASICALLY JUST -- YOU JUST DIDN'T CROSS THAT BLUE WALL OF SILENCE.

>> Braude: DO YOU REGRET DOING WHAT YOU DID, CONSIDERING THE PRICE YOU HAD TO PAY FOR 15 PLUS YEARS?

>> NOT AT ALL.

BECAUSE NEIL MACK STILL LIVES, AND IT WAS NOT WORTH A PAYCHECK IN ORDER FOR HIM TO BE ALIVE TODAY.

>> Braude: I'LL TELL YOU, YOU KNOW, CARIOL, A FINAL THOUGHT TO YOU, AND RON TOUCHED ON THIS WHEN HE MENTIONED THAT T-SHIRT, AND I WOULD LIKE ONE OF THOSE IS: FROM THE MOMENT I FIRST READ ABOUT YOU, AND I READ A LOT ABOUT YOU ONCE I STARTED CHECKING YOU OUT, AND I THOUGHT HAD YOU BEEN IN MINNESOTA, GEORGE FLOYD WOULD LIKELY BE ALIVE TODAY.

DO YOU HAVE THOSE THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT CASE YOURSELF?

>> YEAH BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE ONLY TAKEN ONE OF THEM OFFICERS TO STOP DEREK CHAUVIN, AND NONE OF THEM DID ANYTHING.

SO HAD ONLY ONE OF THEM STOOD UP -- YOU HAVE THE BY-STANDERS WHO WANTED TO DO SOMETHING, BUT WHAT I SEE IS THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT CAN STOP POLICE BRUTALITY ARE OTHER OFFICERS.

IF THEY STAND BY AND DO NOTHING, THEN YOU'LL HAVE PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE FLOYD, ERIC GARNER.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, CARIOL HORNE, THE WORLD WOULD BE A LOT BETTER PLACE IF THERE WERE A LOT MORE CARIOL HORNEs IT.

IT WAS AN HONOR TO MEET YOU.

RON JOHNSON -- RON SULLIVAN -- BOY, I'LL NEVER SAY THAT TO YOU AGAIN -- RON, IT IS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE, TOO.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE, JIM.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW.

PATRICK RADDEN KEEFE ON HIS NEW BOOK ABOUT THE MAKERS OF OXYCONTIN, AND ITS CALLED "EMPIRE OF PAIN: THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE SACKLER DYNASTY."

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

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