>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS, RACHAEL ROLLINS JOINS ME ON THE QUESTIONS THAT STILL REMAIN ABOUT THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, AFTER A LONGTIME COP AND UNION LEADER PLED GUILTY TO CHILD RAPE THIS WEEK.

PLUS, THE LATEST IN THE CASE OF THE BOSTON MARATHON BOMBER, AND HER FOCUS ON HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

THEN, LATER, THE AUTHOR OF "PANDEMIC INC." JOINS ME ON THE WAYS THAT FRAUDSTERS AND PROFITEERS WORKED THE SYSTEM TO LINE THEIR POCKETS AS COVID SPREAD ACROSS THE NATION, AND THE GOVERNMENT FAILURES THAT LED TO IT.

>> Braude: EARLIER THIS WEEK, FORMER BOSTON POLICE OFFICER, PATRICK ROSE PLED GUILTY TO RAPING AND SEXUALLY ASSAULTING SIX KIDS OVER A PERIOD OF NEARLY THREE DECADES, AND WAS SENTENCED TO 10 TO 13 YEARS IN PRISON.

BUT IT'S FAR FROM CASE CLOSED, AS THIS HAS RAISED A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT JUST HOW FAR MEMBERS OF THE B.P.D.

HAD GONE TO PROTECT THEIR OWN OVER THE YEARS.

DESPITE A 1995 CRIMINAL COMPLAINT AGAINST ROSE FOR SEXUAL ASSAULT ON A 12-YEAR-OLD, AND AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES INVESTIGATION THAT BOTH DETERMINED THERE WAS ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE ACCUSATION, ROSE NOT ONLY RETURNED TO DUTY, BUT SERVED ANOTHER 20 YEARS, ULTIMATELY MOVING ON TO LEAD THE PATROLMAN'S UNION, BEFORE RETIRING IN 2018.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE FORMER SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY WHO INITIATED THE PROSECUTION AGAINST ROSE, SHE'S NOW U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS, RACHAEL ROLLINS, WHO WAS IF IS GOOD TO SIGH, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> YOU KNOW OBVIOUSLYEV REE SANE PERSON IS THRILLED THAT ROSE IS GOING TO JAIL BUT I HAVE TO SAY THE NOTION THAT WE MAY NOW NEVER KNOW WHO FACILITATED HIM STAYING ON THE FORCE TOR 20 YEARS ALLOWING HIM TO BECOME A SERIAL PREDATOR JUS GNA-WS AT ME, DOES THAT NOT BOTHER YOU?

>> OF COURSE.

THIS IS A CASE WHEN IT WAS FIRST BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION THAT WAS INCREDIBLY TROUBLING.

THERE ARE SIX VICTIMS AS WE KNOW RIGHT NOW.

AND ALTHOUGH HE HAS A TEN TO 13 YEAR SENTENCE, I BELIEVE IS HE PA ROLL ELIGIBLE AFTER TEN.

THAT IS REALLY DEVASTATING THAT THAT IS LESS THAN TWO YEARS PER VICTIM THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL GETS.

AND YOU KNOW, AS THE FORMER DA THERE ARE SOME TIMES WHEN WE GET SENTENCES THAT WE BELIEVE HELP US IN THE SENSE THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL IS NO LONGER IN THE COMMUNITY AND WILL NOT BE HARMING ANYONE ELSE.

THERE IS A LONG PROBATIONARY PERIOD AFTERWARDS BUT IT IS DEEPLY DISTURBING TO NOT HAVE ANSWERS ABOUT HOW THIS HAPPENED.

NOW I WILL SAY, JIM, THIS IS OVER 30 YEARS AGO.

THERE ARE LOTS OF PROTOCOLS AND POLICIES IN PLACE UNDER COMMISSIONER LONG RIGHT NOW WHERE WE ARE HAPPY TO SAY THAT WE DO NOT BELIEVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS COULD HAPPEN TODAY.

>> BUT NOT ALL OF IT WAS 30 YEARS AGO IT BEGAN PO YEARS AGO OR 27 YEARS AGO.

>> IT BEGAN 30 YEARS AGO, CORRECT.

>> SO MAYOR WALSH REFUSED TO DISCLOSE ANY OF THE INVESTIGATE ORE FILE, KIM JANNEY REDACTED VIRTUALLY ALL OF IT.

SHOULD MAYOR WU RELEASE ALL OF THE FILE EXCEPT THAT WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE IDENTITY OF A SURVIVOR?

>> I THINK WE DO NEED TO CREDIT MAYOR JANNEY FOR THE FACT THAT THERE WAS SOME TRANSPARNTIONY THERE.

>> SOME.

>> I LEAVE IT TO MAYOR WU TO MAKE THAT DECISION, BUT JIM, WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO THE COMMUNITY AND THE PUBLIC WHY IT IS THAT WE DON'T TURN INFORMATION OVER.

SOMETIME THERE CAN BE VERY GOOD REASONS WHY A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST IS DENIED OR WHY WE DON'T GIVE THE PUBLIC ACCESS TO INFORMATION.

BUT WHEN WE ARE SILENT AND DO NOTHING, IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO HAVE OTHER IDEAS ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING.

ARE WE INVOLVED IN THAT CONSPIRACY SHOW.

ARE WE TRYING TO COVER THINGS UP.

AND WHEN I SAY WE, I MEAN MYSELF AS A MEMBER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO THESE AREN'T EASY ANSWERS.

BUT I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE DO A POSTMORTEM AFTER WE FIND CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE HARM WAS DONE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR POLICIES AND PROCEDURES ARE IN PLACE WHERE IT CAN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> QUICKLY, DID YOU READ THE FILE THAT WAS ULTIMATELY REDACTED AND RELEASED WHEN YOU WERE THE DVMENT AMOUNT OF?

>> OF COURSE I DID.

>> Braude: DO YOU THINK THAT 80% OF IT NEEDED TO BE WITHHELD FROM THE PUBLIC AS KIM JANNEY DID?

>> I WILL NOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

I WILL LEAVE THAT TO MAYOR JANNEY'S COUNSEL TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION.

BUT FOR ME, AS THE CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF SUFFOLK SUFFOOLK COUNTY RESIDED I READ EVERY PAGE UNREDACT AND I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS AS WELL.

>> LET'S GO FROM BAD COP TO BAD COP, FIRST CONSENT DE CREE WITH A COMMUNITY FOR POLICE MISCONDUCT DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS ENTERED INTO BY YOUR BOSSES AND YOU WITH THE CITY OF SPRING FIELD.

YOU CAN GIVE US THE GUEST OF IT HERE IF YOU WOULD, U.S. ATTORNEY?

>> OF COURSE SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS SEVERAL YEARS AGO UNDER MY PREDECESSOR U.S. ATTORNEY LELLING, IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THERE WAS APPROVAL UNDER ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS TO OPEN A PATTERN OR PRACTICE INVESTIGATION.

AND WHAT THAT DOES, JIM S IT ALLOWS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO START LOOKING CIVILLY INTO WHETHER THERE ARE PATTERNS OR PRACTICES OF UNCONSTITUTIONAL OR TROUBLING BEHAVIOR.

SADLY AFTER A VERY THOROUGH INVESTIGATION THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ALONG WITH THE OFFICE I AM NOW PRIVILEGED TO LEAD FOUND PATTERNS OF PRACTICES OF VIOLATIONS OF FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS OF INDIVIDUALS IN SPRINGFIELD.

>> EXCESSIVE VIOLENCE BY THE COPS.

>> EXSENSE-- EXCESSIVE VIOLENCE, STRIKES TO THE HEAD, YOU KNOW, EXCESSIVE FORCE ALLEGATIONS THAT WERE SUSTAINED, SOME OF THEM.

AND AS A RESULT OF THAT INVESTIGATION, WE AND THIS IS MY PREDECESSOR, AND MY CIVIL DIVISION HERE, MET WITH THE MAYOR OF SPRING FIELD AS AS WELL AS THE COMMISSIONER OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND CAME TO A RESOLUTION WHEREBY THERE IS NOW A CONSENT DE CREE AND THERE IS GOING TO BE OVERSIGHT REGARDING SIGNIFICANT CHANGES THAT HAVE TO HAPPEN AS A STAFF DEPARTMENT.

I WILL SAY IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THERE ARE CLOSE TO 500 SWORN OFFICERS IN THE SPRINGFIELD POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE NARCOTICS UNIT WHICH IS WHERE THE PROBLEMS WERE FOUND IS APPROXIMATELY 25 OFFICERS, SO YOU KNOW, A SMALL PERCENT-- .

>> Braude: NOT AN INDICTMENT OF THE WHOLE FORCE IS YOUR POINT.

>> IT IS NOT AN INDICTMENT OF THE WHOLE FORCE BUT THERE WERE DEEP CONCERNS WITH RESPECT TO THAT NARCOTICS BURROW.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES MADE ALREADY.

>> Braude: SO LET'S MOVE TO A HAPPIER SUBJECT FOR A BRIEF MOMENT.

YOU WERE INSTALLED I THINK AGAIN, I THINK WERE YOU INSTALLED EARLIER BUT THE FORMALITY INSTALLATION WAS LAST WEEK.

VIRTUALLY EVERY LUMINARY WAS THERE, WHAT STUCK OUT TO ME IS VIRTUALLY EVERY LIVING FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY WAS THERE INCLUDING AT LEAST BY MY COUNT FOUR REPUBLICANS.

WELD, SULLIVAN, BUD AND LELLING, A COUPLE OF WHOM ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE.

DID IT OCCUR TO YOU AT ANY MOMENT THAT FOUR OF YOUR REPUBLICAN PREDECESSORS HONORED WITH YOU WITH THEIR APPOINTMENT BUT NOT ONE OF THEIR FELLOW REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE THOUGHT WERE YOU FIT TO SERVE AS U.S. ATTORNEY?

>> YOU ARE LEVEL WAS AWARE THE FIRST PART OF THAT SENTENCE, IT WAS AN HONOR AND A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE A INFORMTAL INVESTITURE, LIKE MY NINE YEAR OLD WHO WANTS 15 BIRTHDAYS, I PROMISE YOU, I HAD TO BE SWORN IN BEFORE I TOOK OFFICE.

>> Braude: THAT IS THE LAST ONE.

>> THAT IS THE LAST ONE.

BUT IT WAS HUMBLING TO LOOK AND SEE GOVERNOR WELD SITTING THERE WHO SUPPORTED ME AND WAS VOCAL ABOUT MY QUALIFICATIONS TO BE U.S. ATTORNEY AS WELL AS MY PREDECESSOR THE U.S. ATTORNEY LELLING, U.S. ATTORNEY NATE MENDEL AS WELL AS OBVIOUSLY U.S. ATTORNEY BUD AND OTHERS.

U.S. ATTORNEY ORTIZ, WE HAD CLOSE TO TEN LIVING UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS IN THAT ROOM AND THAT IS HISTORY.

AND I AM DEEPLY HONORED TO CALL THEM MY COLLEAGUES.

AND I HAVE VERY BIG SHOES TO FILL WITH RESPECT TO EACH OF THEM.

>> WELL, IF AT ANY POINT YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT AGAIN THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE GIVE ME A CALL AND WE WILL BE HAPPY TO DO THAT.

I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS AT THAT INVESTITURE OR AT A DIFFERENT TIME AW NOUNSED THIS NEW UNIT AROUND EQUITY ISSUES, SPECIFICALLY WHAT I AM MOST CONCERNED ABOUT IS AROUND HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

WHAT WILL THAT UNIT DO THAT WAS NOT DONE BY THE U.S.

ATTORNEYS OFFICE IN MASSACHUSETTS BEFORE?

>> THIS OFFICE IS DEEPLY, HAS ALWAYS CARED DEEPLY ABOUT HUMAN TRAFFICKING BUT THERE HASN'T BEEN A DESIGNATED UNIT FOCUSED EXCLUSIVELY ON HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

>> I SEE.

>> WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THE HEAD OF THE GANG UNITS ALSO IS THE LIAISON WITH RESPECT TO HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

I WANT SOMEBODY WHO WILL FOCUS ON INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE PRIMARILY FOCUSED ONLY HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO.

JIM, WE HAVE SEEN A HUGE UPTICK IN THIS TYPE OF CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, IN PARTICULAR IN VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES LIKE FOR EXAMPLE AT THE MASS AVENUE-- INTERSECTION WHERE WE SEE MENTAL HEALTH AND SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER COMING TOGETHER TO A HEAD WE ALSO SEE SADLY DRUG TRAFFICKING AND HUMAN TRAFFICKING HAPPENING IN EXORBITANT RATES IN THOSE SPECIFIC AREAS AND MANY OF THE INDIVIDUALS THAT HUMAN TRAFFIC AND TRAFFIC AND DRUGS ALSO HAVE A LEGAL FIRE ARM.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF INTERSECTIONALLITY AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE GET EXPERTS THAT ARE WORKING AND AVAILABLE TO THE BOSTON POLICE, THE MASS STATE POLICE AS WELL AS ALL OF OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT PARTNERS ACROSS THE COMMONWEALTH.

>> Braude: THAT'S TERRIFIC.

IF WE CAN MOVE TO ANOTHER LOCAL ISSUE ITS PREEM COURT UPHELD THE DEATH PENALTY FOR GLOBING HAR GLARNEV, I HOPE YOU GLARNEV, I HOPE ARE YOU CONNECTION SIEL FOR FOR ME, JOE BIDEN CAMPAIGNED AGAINST THE BETH PENALTY YET HIS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ARGUED BEFORE THE SPREESM COURT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE REINSTATEMENT OF THE DEATH PENALTY AGAINST SARYN EF, NOT ABOUT WHETHER HE DESERVES IT, AT LEAST MY QUESTION IS NOT, CAN YOU RECONCILE THOSE TWO THINGS FOR US, U.S. ATTORNEY.

>> I CAN I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A MORATORIUM ON EXECUTION UNDER THIS ADMINISTRATION RIGHT NOW.

WHAT I WOULD PHRASE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING DIFFERENTLY.

I THINK WHAT IS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ARGUED IS THAT THE JURY GOT IT RIGHT.

THAT THE JURY WAS PRESENTED WITH EVIDENCE UNDER A PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION AND THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE WERE ARGUING FOR.

WHETHER YOU OR I AGREE WITH THE DEATH PENALTY OR NOT, IS ISN'T RELEVANT TO THIS ANALYSIS.

WE BELIEVE JUDGE O'TOOLE AND THOSE JURORS WHO WORKED INCREDIBLY HARD OVER WEEKS AND WEEKS AND WEEKS IF NOT MONTHS OF TRIAL AND THEN LATER THE DEATH PHASE OF THAT PROCESS, WE BELIEVE THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

>> Braude: BUT UNDER JOE BARDEN SARNAEV WOULD NEVER BE PUT TO DEATH AT LEAST, UNLESS THAT MORATORIUM IS REMOVED, IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

>> THAT IS IN FACT CORRECT.

AND THOSES TWO THINGS CAN COEXIST.

FOR EXAMPLE, GARY LEE SAMPSON WHICH ANOTHER DEATH PENALTY CASE THAT WE HAD, THAT WAS BROUGHT UNDER THEN DA SULLIVAN.

AND SOON TO BE U.S. ATTORNEY SULLIVAN, BECAUSE ONE OF THE VICTIMS DIED IN MICHAEL SULLIVAN'S JURISDICTION IN PLYMOUTH COUNTY AND THEN HE BROUGHT THE CASE, FEDERAL, UNDER THE CAR JACKING STATUTE FOR THOSE THREE VICTIMS THAT GARY LEE SAMPSON MURDERED.

WE ARGUED AFTER GARY LEE SAMPSON DIED TO GERNS THE ABATEMENT DOCTRINE WHICH WOULD HAVE PERMITTED MR. SAMPSON TO DIE WITHOUT THE CONVICTION REGARDING THE THREE PEOPLE HE MURDERED.

AND NOT SENTENCED TO DEATH.

>> BECAUSE THERE WERE STILL APPEALS PENDING.

>> THERE WERE STILL APPEALS PENDING.

>> AND THERE IS, IT'S VERY INTERESTING, JIM, THERE IS, IT'S NOT CONSISTENT WHERE I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT PREVERDICT, IF YOU DIE, YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, BUT GARY LEE SAMPSON HAD BEEN, NOT ONLY DID HE PLEA TO THOSE THREE MURDERS, OR TWO OF THEM IN MASSACHUSETTS, HE WAS FOUND RESPONSIBLE AND PUT TO DEATH BY A JURY.

SO WHAT WE HAVE IS, YOU KNOW, THANKFULLY THOSE THREE FEAMENTS WILL NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH MR. SAMPSON AGAIN BUT HE DIED A CERTIFICATE YELL KILLER WHO WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE LAST THING, RACHAEL ROLLINS, ONE OF I THINK THE LEGACIES THAT YOU DESERVE A LOT OF CREDIT FOR IS THE INTEGRITY REVIEW BURROW WHICH WHEN YOU WERE THE DA.

WE HAVE HAD A LOFTS THE MEN WHO WERE FREED AFTER DECADES IN PRISON FOR CRIMES THEY DID NOT COMMIT THANKS TO THE WORK OF THAT INTEGRITY REVIEW BURROW NEAR THE END OF YOUR TENURE STEVEN PENA WAS ALSO LOOKED AT BY THAT BURROW, 28 YEARS IN PRISON, ULTIMATELY RELEASED BY A JUDGE WHEN TURNED OUT PROSECUTORS WITHHELD EVIDENCE POINTING TO ANOTHER KILLER.

VERY COMPROMISING EVIDENCE AROUND KEY WITNESSES.

THE JUDGE HIMSELF SAID QUOTE THERE SAY FAIRLY HIGH LIKELIHOOD A NEW TRIAL WOULD BE GRANTED BY HIM.

I ASKED YOUR SUCCESSOR KEVIN HAYDEN IF HE WOULD JOIN THE DEFENSE IN THE MOTION AS SEEKING A NEW TRIAL FOR MR. PENA AND HERE IS A LITTLE PIECE OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

>> WE'LL SUPPORT WHATEVER THE JUDGE ASSIGNS IN THIS MATTER.

YOU KNOW, ANY IMPROPRIETY OR IMPROPER CONDUCT BY EITHER THE POLICE OR THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICE THAT TOOK PLACE IN THIS CASE SIMPLY CAN'T STAND.

>> Braude: SO HE WILL LEAVE IT TO THE JUDGE.

WILL NOT JOIN IN THE MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL.

ARE YOU DISAPPOINTED BY THAT?

WOULD YOU HAVE?

HAVE IN THE PAST, IN OTHER SIMILAR CASES, WERE YOU DISAPPOINTED BY THAT?

>> I AM NOT DISAPPOINTED BY ANYTHING THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE SUFFOLK COUNTY DA'S OFFICE.

NO MATTER WHO IS LEADING AN OFFICE, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS.

>> Braude: WOULD YOU HAVE MADE THE SAME DECISION.

>> SO I WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT THE EVIDENCE AND I DID MAKE THE DECISION ABOUT MR. PENA.

>> Braude: WOULD YOU HAVE JOINED IN THE MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL?

>> WELL, WE, I BELIEVE JIM THAT WE DID FILE SOMETHING WITH RESPECT TO MR. PENNA SAYING THAT WE SUPPORTED AND WORK PR CONCERNED ABOUT SOME OF THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL BEHAVIORS THAT WE SAW.

I WILL SAY TO YOU FURTHER I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF MEETING THOMAS KUNZ TODAY ACTUALLY WHO WAS JUST RELEASED, THE MARINE, THAT HAD BEEN OFFICERED A VERY SMALL SENTENCE HAD HE PLED AND ALTHOUGH THAT DID NOT HAPPEN INSIDE OF SUFFOLK COUNTY, I WROTE A LETTER AS DA.

LISTEN, YOU CAN FIRMLY SUPPORT LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BE THE CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHILE ALSO CONDEMNING UNCONSTITUTIONAL BEHAVIOR.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I DID AND WAS PROUD TO DO AND EVERY TIME I DID IT I MADE SURE I CALLED COMMISSIONERS AS WELL AS THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE INDIVIDUAL THAT LOST THEIR LIVES.

OFTENTIMES THESE ARE MURDER CASES WHERE THERE ARE VICTIMS OR SURVIVORS THAT ARE LEFT NOT JUST THE DEFENDANTS THAT BELIEVE THEY WERE WRONGFULLY CONVICTED BUT THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE MURDER VICTIMS THAT ARE LEFT FEELING AS IF THEY HAVE BEEN LIED TO BECAUSE THEY WERE TOLD SOMEBODY WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT MURDER.

SO THESE ARE COMPLICATED ISSUES.

I'M NEVER GOING TO SECOND GUESS OR QUESTION WHAT DA HAYDEN IS DOING.

I JUST WILL TELL YOU THAT I SPENT AN INORDINATE AMOUNT OF TIME, MYSELF, REVIEWING THESE MATTERS.

AN WHEN I SAW BEHAVIOR THAT I WAS NOT PROUD OF, THAT I WOULD NOT PUT MY NAME ON, I HAD NO PROBLEM ASCENTING TO MOTIONS WITH DEFENDANTS ARE OPPOSING THEM IF I THOUGHT IT WAS APPROPRIATE AND I'M HOPEFUL THE DA HAYDEN WILL DO THE SAME.

>> Braude: GOODS TO SIGH, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> ALWAYS A PRESSURE PLEASURE.

THE SPRING OF 2020 WAS A TIME OF A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY AND FOR MANY, FEAR.

WE WERE JUST LEARNING ABOUT COVID-19, FIGURING OUT HOW IT SPREAD, AND WATCHING PEOPLE DIE ALONE IN QUARANTINE, WITH HOSPITALS QUICKLY FILLING UP AND OFFICIALS WARNING ABOUT SHORTAGES OF EVERYTHING FROM MASKS AND GOWNS TO BEDS AND VENTILATORS.

AND WHILE PLENTY OF PEOPLE SELFLESSLY BANDED TOGETHER, ORGANIZING NIGHTLY APPLAUSE FOR FIRST RESPONDERS AND PAINTING SIGNS THANKING THEM, COLLECTING MATERIALS AND MAKING CLOTH MASKS AS QUICKLY AS THEY COULD, OTHERS SAW DOLLAR SIGNS AMID ALL THE SUFFERING, WITH A FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THOROUGHLY UNPREPARED TO ADDRESS THIS TYPE OF CRISIS.

AS A RESULT, A SLEW OF SCAMMERS MANAGED TO GET HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS FOR GOODS AND SERVICES THAT THEY NEVER DELIVERED, AND HAD NO BUSINESS EVEN PRETENDING THEY COULD GET IN THE FIRST PLACE, DRIVING UP PRICES FOR EVERYONE IN THE PROCESS.

THE WHOLE SORDID, CAUTIONARY TALE IS TOLD IN THE NEW BOOK, "PANDEMIC, INC.: CHASING THE CAPITALISTS AND THIEVES WHO GOT RICH WHILE WE GOT SICK."

THE AUTHOR IS PROPUBLICA REPORTER, J. DAVID McSWANE, WHO JOINS ME NOW.

DAVID, TERRIFIC BOOK, THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: SO IS ST FAIR TO SAY THE GOVERNMENT WAS TO DESPERATE, LET ME BE EUPHEMISTIC, IF A BOLD ENTREPRENEUR SAID CAN I GET YOU A MILLION MASKS, HE OR SHE HAD A PRETTY DECENT SHOT OF GETTING A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT?

>> ABSOLUTELY, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED.

EYE CHRONICLE IN THE BOOK ONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS, HE GOT HIS DEAL SIMPLY SENDING AN EMAIL SAYING I CAN GET YOU 6 MILLION N95S AND THE CONTRACT OFFICER AT THE DEPARTMENT FOR VETERAN'S AFFAIRS WHICH OVERCEASE THE LARGEST HOSPITAL NETWORK IN THE COUNTRY SAID THE GUY SEEMS LEGITS AND HE GOT A CONTRACT.

>> WELL S THAT, BY THE WAY, IF I WANTED TO CREATE A KRP TO SCAM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OUT OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, I WOULD NAME IT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EXPERT.

THAT IS THE NAME, THAT IS THE GUY'S COMPANY YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, ROBERT STEWART, JR., RIGHT.

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

>> Braude: AND WE MEET YOU ON HIS PRIVATE PLANE, CAN YOU BRIEFLY TELL THE TALE OF MR. STEWART THERE.

>> SURE.

SO IN THOSE EARLY REALLY SCARY MONTHS I DECIDED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE CONTRACTS AND THE OUTFLOWS OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS, EVENTUALLY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS COMING OUT OF D.C.

HERE.

AND HIS DEAL WAS SIZEABLE, 34.5 MILLION WITH THE VA. AND I SIMPLY CALLED AND SAID HOW DO YOU HAVE THESE MASKS THAT NO ONE SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO GET.

HE SAYS WELL, I'M THE REAL DEAL.

I'M HOPPING ON A PRIVATE JET IN THE MORNING TO OVERSEE THEIR DELIVERY AND I ASKED TO TAGS ALONG.

A FEW HOURS LATER I'M ON THIS PRIVATE JET AND LITERALLY AS WE ARE TAKING OFF, HE DIVULGINGS HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE MASKS THEY HAD BEEN BOUGHT OUT FROM UNDER HIM AND WE ARE SORT OF ON A QUEST NOW FOR THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, 36 HOURS OR SO FOR MASKS.

AND IT LEADS ME INTO THIS WHOLE UNDERBELLY OF THE WORLD OF MASK BROKERS AND TRADERS AND SECRET INVESTORS.

>> IT SORT OF BEGS THE QUESTION WHY HE WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO ALLOW YOU ON THE PLANE AFTER HE KNEW HE WASN'T GOING TO PRODUCE THE MASKS TO THE REPORTER.

SO HE DOESN'T GET HIS 35 MILLION IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, HE DOES GETS SOME PPP LATER BUT THERE IS ANOTHER COMPANY WITH ANOTHER GREAT NAME THAT DID GET TEN MILLION DOLLARS CALLED FILL A KIT.

WHAT DID THEY DELIVER OR NOT FOR THEIR 10 MILLION.

>> IT IS FUNNY YOU MENTION THE NAME BECAUSE THAT IS WHY I FIRST TOOK NOTICE OF THEM.

THIS COMPANY FORMED IN I THINK APRIL 2020 OR EARLY MAY, SIX DAYS LATER GETS A $10 MILLION CONTRACT WITH THE FEDERAL NJ MANAGEMENT WITH CORONAVIRUS TEST KIDS-- KITS PCR THAT NEED LAB WORKS AND SCIENCE IS INVOLVED.

AND YOU KNOW, WAS IMMEDIATELY SCEPTICAL THAT THEY COULD DELIVER.

THE OWNER OF THIS COMPANY TURNS OUT HAD A HISTORY OF FRAUD ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM.

I END UP VISITING THE WAREHOUSE OUTSIDE OF HOUSTON AND CAN SEE THAT WORKERS ARE USING LET'S RAL SNOW SHOVELS TO GATHER UP THESE MINI PLASTIC SODA BOTTLES THAT YOU KNOW UNSTERILE, THEY'RE COMPLETELY UNUSABLE, WE HEAR FROM PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS THAT TEST SITE TESTING IN ALL 50 STATES.

>> Braude: WHY DID HE GET THE 10 MILLION.

THEY WERE LITTLE RATTILY LITTLE TINY SODA BOTD EL, WHY DID THEY PAY HIM $10 MILLION IF IT WAS ALL BS.

>> WELL, SOMEONE AT FEMA DIDN'T CHECK THESE THINGS OUT IT WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN MUCH TO TELL THAT THESE ARE NOT GOING TO WORK.

BUT BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ACCEPTED THEM AND REMITTED PAYMENT, CONTRACT EXPERTS I TALKED TO SAY IT IS HARD TO MAKE A CASE TO GO AFTER THE COMPANY.

>> Braude: I AM ALMOST ALWAYS WILLING TO BLAME ANYTHING ON THE INEPTITUDE AND CORRUPTION OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUT WHEN I AM READING YOUR BOOK, I SAY TO MYSELF, HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE FACT THAT HIS PREDECESSORS HAD STARVED THE PUBLIC HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE, NAMELY THE NATIONAL STRATEGIC STOCK PILE, THE GOVERNMENT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THIS POSITION WHERE THEY HAD TO BE DOING AN OPRAH, YOU GET A CONTRACT, YOU GET A CONTRACT, YOU GET A CONTRACT.

IS THAT NOT A FAIR ANALYSIS OF WHAT TRUMP WAS GIVEN?

>> YEAH, YOU ARE RIGHT T IS A BIT NUANCED.

THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION GAVE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION A PLAY BOOK FOR HANDLING A PANDEMIC, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THREW IT OUT THE WINDOW SO IT IS REALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DISENTANGLE OUR SORT OF SHORTSIGHTEDNESS OVER THE PREVIOUS DECADE NOT PREPARING FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S INEPTITUDE BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY WHEN COVID HIT WE HAD SOMETHING LIKE 1 PERCENT OF WHAT WE NEEDED IN TERMS OF MASKS AND GLOVES IN THE STOCK PILE.

SO WE BECAME RELIANT ON THESE MERCENARIES WHO TOOK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE FORCE A RIDE AND TAXPAYERS OT SCREWED.

>> SPEAKING OF MERCENARIES AND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION NOT TO LET THEM OFF NOT ONLY SHOULD THEY NOT BE LEFT OFF THE HOOK T WAS GROTESQUE AND HOMICIDAL, I WOULD ARGUE, HIS KID, KID IN LAW, JARED KUSHNER WAS THE RECOMMENDATION FOR WHAT, 86 MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT THAT NEW YORK STATE GAVE FOR 14, I THINK IT WAS 14 OR 1500 VENTILATORS NOT ONE OF WHICH WAS DELIVERED, IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

>> THAT IS RIGHT STVMENT UNCLEAR IF KUSHNER HIMSELF WAS INVOLVED BUT IT WAS SORT OF THE COTERIE OF WELL TO DO BUSINESS ASSOCIATES, HIS NETWORK THAT WAS BROUGHT IN.

THEY HAD NO BUSINESS BEING IN THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, IT IS NOT JUST THESE CONTRACTS BUT PAYCHECK PROTECTION PROGRAM WHICH WE KNEW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT, AGAIN INCREDIBLY WELL INTENDED TO KEEP BUSINESSES AFLOAT THAT WERE HANGING BY A THREAD TO KEEP WORKERS WORKING, THAT SORT OF THING.

ALSO RIFE WITH BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF FRAUD, NO?

>> RIGHT, IT IS $800 BILLION PROGRAM, MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF REA WARDS GIVEN, REALLY WITH SPEED AS THE CENTER FOCUS, IT WAS JUST A FLAWED PROGRAM IN THE WAY CONGRESS DESIGNED IT AND JUST REALLY EASY TO DE FRAUD AND PEOPLE BOUGHT YACHTS AND ROLLS-ROYCES AND MANSIONS.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE GANG THAT COULDN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT BY THE BUT I HOPE I'M YOU'RE NOT O FENNED.

I'M READING YOUR BOOK AND HALF THE TIME I'M ENRAGED AND HALF IT IS LIKE AN SNL ROUTINE, LET'S RALLY LIKE THE GANG THAT COULDN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT, ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE AND ON THE SIDE OF THESE GRIFTERS, THESE SCAMMERS, DID YOU, I MEAN, HOW DID YOU TREAT ALL THIS AS YOU ARE REPORTING IT, DAVID?

>> RIGHT, I MEAN AS AN AMERICAN I WAS OUTRAGED AT A LOT OF WHAT I WAS SEEING.

BUT IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING YOU END UP IN SILLY SITUATIONS WHERE THIS PERSON I HAD BEEN TRACKING DOWN FOR MONTHS OFFERS ME MARIJUANA, FOR INSTANCE.

AND I MENTION THE SODA BOTTLE TEST TUBES AND I FELT WE'VE ALL JUST BEEN THROUGH THE RINGER HERE.

I WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE SOME OF THAT HUMOR BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT'S A TEXTURE OF WHO WE WHEREAS HUMANS IN THIS TIME.

THIS WAS REALLY JUST ABSURD BEHAVIOR AND YOU KNOW, JUST EMBLEMATIC OF WHERE WE ARE BROKEN AS A COUNTRY.

>> I KNOW ARE YOU NOT A MORALIST, YOU ARE A JOURNALIST BUT WHAT IS THE MORALITY OR AT LEAST THE TAKE AWAY FROM THIS TALE THAT YOU TOLD IN YOUR ESTIMATION.

>> WELL, ONE IS IF WE ARE PREPARED, MAYBE WE WON'T HAVE A NATIONAL WELL-BEING IN THE HANDS OF MERCENARIES, THE OTHER IS YOU KNOW, IT'S WRONG TO COME INTO OUR TIME OF NEED AND TRY TO GET RICH BY SCREWING PEOPLE OVER.

AND WE SAW IT ON A MASSIVE SCALE AND MY HOPE IS THAT THIS BOOK IS REALLY A BLUE PRINT OF EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULDN'T DO THE NEXT TIME WE'RE FACED WITH SUCH A CRISIS.

>> AND A BLUE PRINT FOR CONGRESS PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE ENGAGING IN HONEST OVERSIGHT TO DO THEIR JOB, THAT WOULD BE MY ONLY ADDITION TO YOUR PLAY LIST.

DAVID, YOUR BOOK IS TREFNG.

EVERYBODY SHOULD READ IT, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND WORK.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THE BOOK GEN IS PANDEMIC INK, CHASING THE CAPITALISTS AND WHO GOT RICH WHILE WE GOT SICK.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

HARVARD MADE A LOT HEADLINES THIS WEEK FOR ANNOUNCING IT'S PUTTING $100 MILLION TOWARD ATONING FOR ITS PAST TIES TO SLAVERY.

BUT IS IT ENOUGH?

THE BOSTON FOUNDATION C.E.O.

AND PRESIDENT LEE PELTON JOINS ME ON THAT AND OTHER REPARATIONS EFFORTS UNDERWAY, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org (upbeat music) >> Hey, folks.

Today we're in Copley Square in downtown Boston.

Usually I'm the guy who Answers your Questions, But today, you are going To answer my questions About the unwritten rules And quirks of life in Boston.

>> NO RESPECTABLE BOSTONIAN CALLS IT BEANTOWN.

>> SOME PEOPLE CALL US THE "617" BECAUSE 617 IS THE BOSTON AREA CODE.

>> YEAH, THE BEAN.

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'VE HEARD IT AS, THE BEAN.

>> BOSTON, THE BEAN.

BAKED BEANS, I DON'T KNOW.

>> WHEN I SEE THE MAILMAN, HE WEARS SHORTS.

YOU KNOW?

(LAUGHS) AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE WEAR SHORTS, I GUESS IT'S A FAD.

>> I NEVER COULD GET INTO SHORTS IN THE WINTER, BUT WE DO HAVE SOME BOSTONIANS THAT CAN DO THAT.

>> SHOW US IF YOU CAN HANG, IF YOU CAN HANDLE THE COLD.

>> I DEFINITELY RECOMMEND WEARING SHORTS.

>> THE STREETS AREN'T LIKE OTHER CITIES, LIKE HOW IT'S MORE GRID-LIKE.

OURS IS LITERALLY ALL OVER THE PLACE.

YOU COULD BE ON ONE STREET FOR A MINUTE AND THAT STREET WILL LITERALLY TURN INTO ANOTHER STREET AND YOU WON'T REALIZE IT.

THERE'S A LOT OF ONE WAYS.

THERE'S A LOT OF DEAD ENDS.

THERE'S A LOT OF CUL-DE-SACS.

>> DON'T DRIVE YOUR CAR FROM PLACE TO PLACE, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, YOU CAN'T GET PARKING, EVEN IF YOU WANTED IT WHERE YOU WANT IT.

AND SECONDLY, YOU'RE GOING TO BE FORCED TO SPEND WHAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER A MORTGAGE FOR YOUR HOUSE TO GET A PARKING SPACE.

>> I HAVE BEEN USING THE T, BUT IT'S SUPER SIMPLE FOR ME.

IT'S REALLY EASY.

IT GETS ME WHERE I'M GOING PRETTY FAST.

>> THE T IS FRUSTRATING.

IT'S GOING TAKE YOU ABOUT AN HOUR TO GET ANYWHERE ON IT.

IT'S GOING TAKE YOU A WHILE, SO BE PATIENT, RELAX, BRING A BOOK.

>> I FELT LIKE THIS IS A PRETTY ACCESSIBLE CITY BY FOOT.

(CAR HONKING) >> THERE'S SO MANY TIMES WHERE I'VE ALMOST RAN PEOPLE OVER FOR JAYWALKING AND THEN WE DO IT, SO... WHO WANTS TO GO FROM CORNER TO CORNER TO CROSS THE STREET?

I MEAN, IF I SEE THAT IT'S CLEAR, I JAYWALK.

>> ONE THING THEY DON'T TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION, IRON DON'T CRY.

>> JAYWALKING'S PART OF OUR REVOLUTIONARY SPIRIT.

THAT'S HOW WE KEEP IT ALIVE.

I'M VERY GOOD.

PERSONALLY, I'M VERY GOOD AT IT.

I HAVEN'T LOST ANYBODY NOW IN THREE WEEKS.

>> WELL, THERE YOU HAVE IT.

DON'T FORGET TO LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE, AND LET ME KNOW WHAT UNWRITTEN RULES OF BOSTON YOU LIVE BY, OR LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU'RE CURIOUS ABOUT.

BECAUSE HEY, I MIGHT JUST LOOK INTO IT FOR YOU.

I'M EDGAR B. HERWICK III, STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE.

>> THE CURIOSITY DESK IS SPONSORED BY EMERSON COLLEGE.

INSPIRING CURIOSITY AND CREATIVE