♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> SUPPORT UKRAINE SHOULD BE LESS DEPENDENT ON SHORT-TERM VOLUNTARY OFFERS.

>> NATO'S LONG-TERM TRUMP-PROOF PLAN FOR UKRAINE.

FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE ALLIANCE KURT VOLKER JOINS ME.

THEN -- >> THEY WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE OF DON'T COME AND LET THE PEOPLE DIE.

>> WORLD LEADERS OUTRAGE MOUNTS OVER THE ISRAELI STRIKE KILLING WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN AID WORKERS IN GAZA.

HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED?

CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTS.

PLUS -- >>> CAN COMEDY MAKE SENSE OF TRAGEDY?

I SPEAK TO BASSEM YOUSSEF WHOSE WIFE HAS FAMILY IN GAZA.

AND HE TOURS HIS LATEST STANDUP SHOW.

AS AHEAD -- >> FOR A CLASS OF POLITICIANS, THEY LOOK AROUND AND GO, THIS IS NOT WHAT I THOUGHT, THIS IS NOT WHY I GOT INTO POLITICS.

>> A WAVE OF AMERICAN LAWMAKERS ARE QUITTING CONGRESS.

WHY?

AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR U.S.

POLITICS?

CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR CHARLIE SYKES BREAKS IT ALL DOWN WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

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CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL IS COMING UNDER ITS MOST INTENSE SCRUTINY TO DATE IN THIS WAR, AFTER AN AIR STRIKE KILLED SEVEN AID WORKERS IN GAZA, WHICH ISRAEL HAS CALLED, QUOTE, UNINTENTIONAL AND A GRAVE MISTAKE, DESPITE EXTENSIVE COORDINATION ABOUT THE TIMING AND THE ROUTE OF THAT CONVOY.

WORLD LEADERS, INCLUDING THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, ARE CALLING IT AN OUTRAGE, AND IT WILL NO DOUBT LOOM LARGE AT THEIR NATO MEETING IN BRUSSELS, WHERE THE MAIN FOCUS IS MEANT TO BE ON A DIFFERENT WAY, UKRAINE.

TOMORROW MARKS 75 YEARS SINCE NATO'S CREATION, AND THIS ANNIVERSARY COMES AS IT GRAPPLES WITH HOW TO CONTINUE SUPPORTING THE COUNTRY THAT'S BATTLING FOR SURVIVAL ON ITS VERY DOORSTEP.

ONE SOLUTION UNDER DISCUSSION IS A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR, MULTI-YEAR NATO FUND FOR UKRAINE'S DEFENSE, RATHER THAN RELYING ON INDIVIDUAL NATION'S CONTRIBUTIONS.

KURT VOLKER IS A FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO NATO AND WAS SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE, AND HE JOINED ME EARLIER FROM POLAND, BEFORE AN ONWARD JOURNEY TO KYIV.

AMBASSADOR VOLKER, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> LET US TALK ABOUT AN AREA OF YOUR GREAT CONCERN, AND THAT IS, OBVIOUSLY, THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE.

SO, THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO IN THEIR MEETING IS TALKING ABOUT A 100 BILLION EURO, ABOUT $107 BILLION U.S., IN A FIVE-YEAR FUND.

OBVIOUSLY, FOR A LONG-TERM SUPPORT OF UKRAINE.

BREAK THAT DOWN FOR US.

IS THAT GOOD POLICY, GOOD FINANCIAL SENSE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

NO, THIS IS VERY GOOD POLICY.

IT DOES SEVERAL THINGS.

FIRST OFF, IT USES NATO'S ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE, WHICH IS CONSIDERABLE, IN ORDER TO DO THE KIND OF COORDINATION WORK AND SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE'S ARMENT AND DEFENSE CAPABILITIES AND DEFENSE REFORM, THAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING YEARS AGO, FRANKLY.

THE RAMSTEIN GROUP HAS BEEN AD HOC AND U.S.-LED.

THIS PUTS THIS IN A MORE SYSTEMATIC CAPACITY, COMING OUT OF NATO.

THE SECOND THING THAT IT DOES IS, IT PUTS OUT A VERY LARGE NUMBER, A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF EUROS FOR UKRAINE'S DEFENSE PROCUREMENT, AMMUNITION, EQUIPMENT, AND SO FORTH.

THIS SENDS A VERY STRONG SIGNAL TO VLADIMIR PUTIN THAT IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD FOR HIM TO KEEP UP WITH THIS LEVEL OF ARMA MENT FOR UKRAINE.

PUTIN NEEDS TO GET THE SIGNAL THAT HE'S NEVER GOING TO WIN.

EVERY TIME WE HESITATE, EVERY TIME WE DON'T PASS FUNDING, EVERY TIME THERE'S A GAP, PUTIN TAKES THAT AS A SIGN OF A LACK OF RESOLVE.

THIS SENDS A POSITIVE AND POWERFUL SIGNAL THAT THERE IS RESOLVE, AND THERE ARE THE MEANS THERE TO BACK IT UP.

>> SO, IS THIS ALSO FROM NATO AND THE OTHER ALLIES' PERSPECTIVE, A WAY TO ENSURE THEMSELVES AGAINST WHAT ESSENTIALLY IS POTENTIAL AMERICAN FICKLENESS, DEPENDING ON WHO IS IN POWER, WHO IS IN OFFICE?

THEY CAN TURN ON OR OFF THE FAUCET AT WILL?

>> THE U.S. IS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THIS $170 BILLION FUND, ASSUMING THAT IT'S CREATED.

THE U.S. IS THE LARGEST SINGLE CONTRIBUTOR TO NTO AND OUR DEFENSE BUDGET IS STILL IN THE RANGE OF ABOUT 75% OF TOTAL NATO COUNTRY DEFENSE SPENDING, SO, CLEARLY, THE U.S. WILL BE A BIG PART OF THIS WHAT THIS DOES DO, AS I SAID, IT PUTS OUT A LARGE NUMBER FOR A LONGER TIME HORIZON.

THOSE ARE GENERALLY GOOD THINGS TO DO, NO MATTER WHAT.

I WOULDN'T MAKE ANY ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHAT FUTURE U.S. POLICY WOULD BE, WHETHER IT'S A TRUMP, WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD DO, BUT THIS IS A GOOD WAY TO ORGANIZE AID FOR UKRAINE REGARDLESS.

>> YOU SAY, CORRECTLY, THAT AMERICA WOULD HAVE A HUGE PART OF THIS.

BUT ISN'T THAT THEN, I MEAN, ISN'T IT THE SAME PROBLEM, THEN, WHETHER YOU INSTITUTIONALIZE IT OR NOT?

YOU STILL HAVE TO DEPEND ON AMERICA'S WILL.

>> YEAH, WELL, THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE WORLD, THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE ALLIANCE, THAT COUNTRIES ARE FREE TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES AND DO WHAT THEY DO.

I'M VERY CONFIDENT THAT THE U.S. WILL CONTINUE TO PROVIDE SUBSTANTIAL SUMS OF AID TO UKRAINE, AS WE HAVE DONE ALREADY.

WHEN THE HOUSE COMES BACK IN ABOUT A WEEK'S TIME, SPEAKER JOHNSON HAS PROMISED TO TRY TO BRING THE BILL TO THE FLOOR AND GET A VOTE.

HE SUGGESTED A FEW WAYS IN WHICH THAT MIGHT BE DONE OVER THE WEEKEND.

VERY CONFIDENT THAT WILL GET PASSED.

AND I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LACK OF SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IN EITHER THE REPUBLICANS OR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN CONGRESS.

YOU HAVE ABOUT 80% OF THE VOTES THERE READY TO SUPPORT IT.

IT IS JUST THAT IT IS MIXED UP WITH OTHER POLITICAL ISSUES.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THIS NATO INITIATIVE DOES IS, IT ENSURES THAT THERE WILL BE SUBSTANTIAL EUROPEAN SUPPORT FORTHCOMING, AS WELL.

FINANCIAL SUPPORT, BUYING WEAPONS THAT NATO ORGANIZES.

THIS IS ONE OF THE KEY THINGS THAT ANY AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, WOULD BE LOOKING FOR, WHICH IS ASSURANCES OF BURDEN SHARING, SO THAT IT IS NOT OVERRELIANT ON THE U.S. >> SO, LET ME JUST PLAY FOR YOU AND OUR AUDIENCE WHO THE NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL HAS SAID ABOUT THIS FUND AND ITS PURPOSE.

>> WE ARE NOW DISCUSSING WAYS TO INSTITUTIONALIZE MORE OF THE SUPPORT WITHIN A NATO FRAMEWORK, TO MAKE IT MORE PREDICTABLE, TO MAKE IT MORE ROBUST, BECAUSE WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE SHOULD BE LESS DEPENDENT ON SHORT-TERM, VOLUNTARY, OFFERS, AND MORE DEPENDENT ON LONG-TERM NATO OFFERS.

>> WE'VE DISCUSSED AMERICA'S POTENTIAL ACTIONS IN THE FUTURE, BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER NATO MEMBERS?

DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD BE ONBOARD, AND LET ME JUST ADD THIS, A SENIOR DIPLOMAT HAS TOLD THE UK NEWSPAPER "THE TELEGRAPH," IF WE ARE TO DO THIS, WE HAVE TO CROSS THE RUBICON THAT NATO WILL HAVE A ROLE IN COORDINATING THE SUPPLY OF LETHAL SUPPORT TO UKRAINE.

AND I THINK THEY'RE SAYING, THERE'S NO MORE SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

THIS IS A WAR THAT NATO IS SUPPORTING ON ONE SIDE FORMALLY NOW.

>> YEAH, SO, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, THE REASON THAT WE HAVE NOT DONE COORDINATION OF AID FOR UKRAINE THROUGH NATO WAS THAT THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION, GERMANY, PROBABLY OTHERS, DID NOT WANT TO HAVE ANY FORMAL NATO ROLE AT ALL IN HELPING UKRAINE.

THEY DELIBERATELY KEPT IT OUT.

I THINK THAT WAS A MISTAKE, BECAUSE NATO DOES PROVIDE EXACTLY WHAT THE SECRETARY-GENERAL'S TALKING ABOUT.

CONSISTENCY, STABILITY, A LONGER TERM PERSPECTIVE, ASSURANCES OF BURDEN SHARING, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD ALL WANT.

I THINK IT'S A GOOD STEP, BUT WE HELD OFF FROM THIS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, WHAT IS NATO'S ROLE NOW?

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN ALREADY SEES HIMSELF IN A CONTEST WITH THE WEST.

HE'S ALREADY COMMITTING TO BUILD A MILITARY OF 1.5 MILLION MEN, WHICH IS DESIGNED NOT JUST FOR UKRAINE, BUT FOR LARGER PURPOSES.

HE HAS ALREADY ARTICULATED A VISION OF REBUILDING A RUSSIAN EMPIRE AND MOVING INDEPENDENCE GOVERNMENTS FROM WHAT HE CONSIDERS RUSSIAN LANDS, SO, I THINK IT'S GOOD THAT NATO IS TWAKING UP, THAT WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS, MORE SYSTEMATIC, AND NOT BE AFRAID TO LEAN IN TO MAKE SURE THAT RUSSIA IS DEFEATED IN UKRAINE.

>> SO, LET'S JUST PLAY YOU WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN, THE PRESIDENT, HAS RECENTLY SAID IN THE LAST WEEK, IN RESPONSE TO THE PERSISTENT FEARS AND CLAIMS BY NATO NATIONS THAT HE WON'T STOP AT UKRAINE IF HE WINS.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THAT.

>> Translator: THIS IS COMPLETE RUBBISH.

THE POSSIBILITY OF US ATTACKING SOME OTHER COUNTRIES, POLAND, BALTIC STATES, THEY ARE SCARING THE CZECH WITH IT.

THIS IS TOTAL DRIFL.

THIS IS YET ANOTHER WAY TO FOOL THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND MAKE THE PEOPLE SPEND MORE ON DEFENSE AND MAKE THEM CARRY THIS BURDEN.

THAT'S IT.

>> SO, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> YEAH, WELL, THE KEY TO LISTENING TO VLADIMIR PUTIN IS TO ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE'S SAYING, YOU NEED TO ASK YOURSELF, WHY IS HE SAYING IT?

HE IS SAYING THIS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT NATO COUNTRIES TO SPEND MORE ON DEFENSE, AND HE DOESN'T WANT NATO TO GET AN ORGANIZED EFFORT TOGETHER.

SO, BECAUSE OF THAT, HE IS TRYING TO PROVIDE A KIND OF ASSURANCE THAT, OH, HE HAS NO INTENTION TO ATTACK THESE OTHER COUNTRIES.

IN FACT, MOST OF HIS OWN STATEMENTS AND WRITINGS OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS HAVE SAID THE OPPOSITE.

AND YOU'LL REMEMBER, AS WELL, THAT BEFORE THE FULL SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE IN FEBRUARY '22, HE SAID THAT HE WASN'T GOING TO INVADE UKRAINE.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND I WOULD TAKE THE VERACITY OF THIS MOST RECENT STATEMENT RIGHT ALONGSIDE THE VERACITY OF THE ONE HE MADE ABOUT UKRAINE.

>> SO, YOU ARE GOING TO UKRAINE AFTER YOUR VISIT NOW TO POLAND, AND YOU ARE VERY, AS I SAID, CONCERNED ABOUT THE CONTINUED SUPPORT OF A DEMOCRATIC AND SOVEREIGN NATION.

WE KNOW, BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN BATTLEFIELD REPORTS, WE'VE HEARD FROM FRONT LINE SOLDIERS, WE'VE BEEN TO HOSPITALS, THAT THEY ARE TAKING A BIG BEATING RIGHT NOW.

RUSSIANS ARE, TOO, BUT IT'S PLAYING VERY HEAVILY ON THE UKRAINIAN, YOU KNOW, MILITARY FORCE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY NEED MOST NOW, AND WHAT DOES THE U.S. HAVE IN ITS STOCKPILES?

LIKE, DOES IT HAVE A BACKLOG OF UNUSED AIRCRAFT, OR THINGS THAT COULD BE SENT TO THE UKRAINIANS TO USE RIGHT NOW, EVEN BEFORE ANY SORT OF MILITARY AID IS PASSED BY CONGRESS?

>> YES.

AND THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT YOU RAISE.

THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS THE U.S. COULD BE DOING EVEN NOW.

WE HAVE STOCKPILES OF OUR OWN EQUIPMENT THAT WE COULD BE TRANSFERRING TO UKRAINE.

I WOULD HIGHLIGHT IN PARTICULAR THE LONGEST RANGE ARTILLERY SYSTEMS, F-16s AND OTHER TYPES OF AIRCRAFT THAT WE HAVE IN THE DESERT OUT WEST IN THE UNITED STATES, WE COULD BE SUPPLYING THEM AS EXCESS DEFENSE ARTICLES.

UKRAINIANS ARE ALREADY TRAINED ON A LOT OF THESE THINGS.

WE HAVE MSHLG EMERGENCY AUTHORITIES THAT THE PENTAGON COULD ACTIVATE FOR U.S. DEFENSE EXPENDITURE.

WHICH WE WOULD HAVE TO BACK FILL LATER, BUT WE COULD DO THIS NOW, IN ADVANCE OF FUNDING FROM CONGRESS, SO, THERE'S A LOT OF STEPS THAT WE COULD BE TAKING THAT WE HAVE NOT YET TAKEN.

THAT'S ONE THING.

SECOND, ABOUT THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE, THE FRONT LINE IS REASONABLY STABLE AS IT IS.

INDEED, WE JUST SAW THE OTHER DAY A RUSSIAN TANK COLUMN COMPLETELY DESTROYED BY THE UKRAINIANS AS IT TRIED TO ADVANCE.

SO, THE FRONT LINE IS OKAY, BUT IT WILL ERODE OVER TIME IF U.S. SUPPORT IS NOT FORTHCOMING, BUT THE LACK OR DELAYS IN U.S. SUPPORT HAS CAUSED A SENSE OF UNCERTAINTY IN UKRAINE THAT IS ALL PERMEATING AND CREATES A MUCH GREATER SENSE OF DREAD ABOUT THE FUTURE.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE HAVE TO REALLY WORRY ABOUT AND TRY TO FIX, BY GETTING THIS U.S. AID PROVIDED MORE QUICKLY.

AND THEN, THE FINAL POINT I WOULD SAY, IS THAT WE HAVE CONTINUOUSLY, SINCE THE BEGINNING OF RUSSIA'S FULL-SCALE INVASION, SELF-IMPOSED LIMITS ON WHAT WE WILL AND WON'T DO.

YOU'LL REMEMBER BACK IN 22, WE SAID WE WON'T PROVIDE STINGER MISSILES, WE WON'T PROVIDE ARMORED VEHICLES, WE WON'T PROVIDE ARTILLERY, AND ON AND ON.

WE WON'T PROVIDE AIRCRAFT.

WE'VE OVERCOME EACH OF THOSE THINGS, AND IT HAS BEEN VITAL THAT WE HAVE DONE SO.

WE ARE STILL HOLDING BACK ON CERTAIN THINGS, FOR INSTANCE, THE LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY SYSTEMS THAT I MENTIONED.

AND WE ARE STILL TELLING THE UKRAINIANS NOT TO HIT INSIDE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

WHICH IS TELLING THEM TO FIGHT, BASICALLY, WITH ONE HAND TIED BEHIND THEIR BACK, AS RUSSIA IS ATTACKING THEM FROM RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

SO, WE NEED TO MAKE THE -- THE RESTRICTION ON UKRAINE THAT WE WOULD SUPPORT ONE OF ONLY HITTING MILITARY AND MILITARILY RELEVANT TARGETS, NOT CIVILIANS AND CIVILIAN FACILITIES LIKE THE RUSSIANS DO, BUT STICKING TO THE MILITARY RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, BUT IT IS FAIR GAME TO BE STRIKING INSIDE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.

>> TALKING ABOUT STICKING TO THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE A VIEW ON THIS, BUT CLEARLY MANY OF THE FOREIGN MINISTERS, IF NOT ALL OF THE FOREIGN MINISTERS ATTENDING THE NATO SUMMIT ON UKRAINE ARE ALSO SERIOUSLY OUTRAGED, EXPRESSING SUCH OUTRAGE ABOUT RULES OF ENGAGEMENT BY ISRAEL ON GAZA, TO WIT, THE DRONE STRIKES ON A APPARENTLY PREARANGED, PRE-COORDINATED WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN AID CONVOY EARLIER THIS WEEK.

THEY'RE VERY ANGRY, PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS COLLEAGUES.

WHAT -- A, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, AND B, DO YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT -- YOU KNOW, THE STATE OF THIS WAR IN GAZA IS ALSO TAKING VALUABLE RESOURCES AND ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE UKRAINE WAR.

>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY IS TAKING UP A LOT OF ATTENTION AWAY FROM WHAT OTHERWISE WOULD BE FOCUSED ON UKRAINE.

THAT'S FOR SURE.

THE OTHER IS THAT ISRAEL IS ONLY DAMAGING ITSELF IN THIS PROCESS, AND IT'S A SHAME TO SEE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LEGITIMATE CLAIM TO NEED TO GET RID OF HAMAS, AFTER THE HAMAS ATTACKS, AGAIN, FROM OCTOBER 7th, NOW THREE MONTHS OR -- SIX MONTHS ON.

THEY HAVE A LEGITIMATE NEED TO DO THAT, BUT THE WAY THEY HAVE GONE ABOUT THIS, WITH SUCH CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND NOW, APPARENTLY, TARGETING A KNOWN CIVILIAN AID CONVOY WITH, YOU KNOW, UK AND OTHER CITIZENS ONBOARD, THIS IS REALLY ISRAEL DAMAGING ITS OWN CAUSE.

AND I THINK THEY REALLY NEED TO THINK MUCH HARDER ABOUT PROTECTING CIVILIANS, PROTECTING INTERNATIONAL AID EFFORTS, INCREASING THE FLOW OF AID, AND MAKING SURE THAT THEIR MILITARY EFFORTS ARE DIRECTED AT THE RIGHT TARGETS, AND ARE PROPORTIONATE.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS HE IS OUTRAGED THAT ISRAEL HAS NOT DONE ENOUGH TO PROTECT CIVILIANS.

PRIME MINISTER RISHI SUNAK TOLD PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IN A PHONE CALL THAT HE IS APPALLED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, AND THE SITUATION IN GAZA IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY INTOLERABLE.

THREE OF THOSE KILLED ON MONDAY WERE BRITISH CITIZENS.

JEREMY DIAMOND HAS MORE ON THE THE SCENES, OF COURSE, ARE VERY HARD TO WATCH.

>> Reporter: THERE IS NO MISTAKING THE TARGET OF THIS ISRAELI STRIKE.

THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN'S LOGO STILL VISIBLE AFTER A MISSILE TORE THROUGH THE ROOF OF THIS VEHICLE.

PIECES OF THE AID ORGANIZATION'S EMBLEM SCATTERED THROUGHOUT THE CHARRED HULL OF A SECOND VEHICLE.

AND THEN, THERE ARE THE BODIES OF THE AID WORKERS THEMSELVES.

PATCHES PROUDLY WORN ON CHESTS, OVER BULLET PROOF VESTS THAT OFFERED NO MORE PROTECTION IN GAZA THAN THE EMBLEM OF A HUMANITARIAN AID ORGANIZATION.

THEY ARE AMONG SEVEN AID WORKERS KILLED IN ISRAELI STRIKES ON THEIR CONVOY LATE MONDAY NIGHT.

SIX OF THEM WERE FOREIGNERS, INCLUDING A DUAL AMERICAN-CANADIAN CITIZEN, AS WELL AS BRITISH, AUSTRALIAN, AND POLISH NATIONALS.

TRIGGERING INTERNATIONAL UPROAR AND PROMPTING A RARE APOLOGY FROM ISRAEL'S TOP GENERAL.

>> I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR.

THE STRIKE WAS NOT CARRIED OUT WITH THE INTENTION OF HARMING WCK AID WORKERS.

IT WAS A MISTAKE THAT FOLLOWED A MISIDENTIFICATION AT NIGHT DURING A WAR IN A VERY COMPLEX CONDITION.

IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

>> Reporter: WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN SAYS THE ISRAELI MILITARY KNEW ABOUT THE CONVOY, AND A WEAPONS EXPERT CONSULTED BY CNN SAID IMAGES OF THE DAMAGE INDICATE A PRECISE DRONE STRIKE CARRIED OUT WITH TOTAL VISIBILITY OF THE TARGET.

WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN SAID ITS AID WORKERS GOT INTO THREE VEHICLES AFTER UNLOADING AID AT THIS WAREHOUSE IN CENTRAL GAZA.

AND BEGAN TRAVELING DOWN THE COASTAL AL RASHEED STREET.

CNN USED IMAGES FILMED AT THE SCENE.

3 1/2 MILES SOUTH, A FIRST VEHICLE IS STRUCK.

TWO OTHER STRIKES RAINED DOWN IN QUICK SUCCESSION.

ONE VEHICLE IS HIT A HATCH MILE FURTHER.

THE THIRD COMES TO A STOP, ANOTHER MILE DOWN THE ROAD.

FOUND ONLY THE NEXT DAY.

>> Translator: LAST NIGHT, BETWEEN 11:00 AND 11:30 P.M., A MISSILE HIT A CAR.

WHEN WE APPROACHED, WE SAW THE CAR ON FIRE.

WE TRIED TO EXTINGUISH THE FIRE, AND UPON OPENING THE CAR, WE DISCOVERED BOXES OF CANNED MEAT.

IT WAS AN INTERNATIONAL AID ORGANIZATION THAT ASSISTS PEOPLE.

ANY INTERNATIONAL OR EUROPEAN ORGANIZATION THAT COMES TO AID GAZA WILL BE TARGETED.

THEY WANT TO SEND A MESSAGE OF DON'T COME, AND LET THE PEOPLE DIE.

>> Reporter: THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS STRUCK AID CONVOYS IN THE PAST.

INCLUDING THIS U.N. TRUCK, WHICH WAS SHELLED IN EARLY FEBRUARY.

WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN, FOUNDED IN 2010 BY CELEBRITY CHEF JOSE ANDRES, HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT AID ORGANIZATIONS IN GAZA.

EVEN WORKING WITH THE ISRAELI MILITARY LAST MONTH TO BUILD A PIER OFF THE GAZA COASTLINE, DELIVERING THE FIRST AID SHIPMENTS TO GAZA BY SEA.

THIS AUSTRALIAN SPENT YEARS COORDINATING AID OPERATIONS FOR WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN.

RISKING AND ULTIMATELY SACRIFICING HER LIFE TO HELP THOSE IN NEED.

SHE DIED ALONGSIDE HER POLISH COLLEAGUE.

>> HELLO, EVERYONE!

>> Reporter: WEEKS EARLIER, HE WAS EXCITEDLY READYING A CONVOY TO BUILD SOUP KITCHENS IN GAZA.

>> TABLES, SHELVES, WATER SYSTEMS.

>> Reporter: TODAY, THEIR BODIES WERE AMONG THOSE HEADED FOR THE RAFAH BORDER CROSSING.

BUT THE BODY OF ONE OF THE SEVEN WILL NOT LEAVE GAZA.

A DRIVER AND TRANSLATOR WAS BURIED IN CENTRAL GAZA, NOT FAR FROM WHERE HE CARRIED OUT HIS FINAL MISSION.

>> AND THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN BRITISH CITIZENS KILLED, JOHN CHAPMAN, JAMES KIRBY, AND JAMES HENDERSON.

AND ALSO NAMED THE U.S.-CANADIAN DUAL CITIZEN AS JACOB FLICKINGER.

WORLD LEADERS, ESPECIALLY THE U.S. AND BRITAIN, ARE COMING UNDER MAJOR CRITICISM AND INCREASING PRESSURE TO STOP WEAPONS SUPPLIES TO ISRAEL.

ACCORDING TO THE U.N., SINCE OCTOBER 7th, AT LEAST 196 AID WORKERS HAVE BEEN KILLED, THE VAST MAJORITY IN GAZA, WHILE THE KILLING OF FOREIGN AID WORKERS HAVE PROVOKED THIS GLOBAL OUTCRY.

THE MAJORITY OF THE DEAD HAVE BEEN PALESTINIAN.

MEANWHILE, ISRAELIS ARE NAVIGATING PAIN AND ANGUISH.

TODAY, HOSTAGE FAMILIES STORMED THE PUBLIC GATHERING OF THE KNESSET, CHANTING "NOW, NOW," DEMANDING RETURN OF THEIR LOVED ONES HELD HOSTAGE.

THE SCALE OF SUFFERING IN GAZA IS HARD TO COMPREHEND.

EVEN MORE SO FOR PEOPLE LIVING ABROAD, WITH FAMILY TRAPPED THERE.

LIKE COMEDIAN BASSEM YOUSSEF, WHOSE WIFE HAS FAMILY THERE.

HE SAYS CONTACT IS INFREQUENT AND HARROWING, AND HE'S TOURING HIS LATEST ONE-MAN SHOW ACROSS THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW HERE IN LONDON.

BASSEM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> I'M SO HAPPY TO BE HERE AGAIN WITH YOU.

IT HAS BEEN AWHILE SINCE THE LAST TIME I WAS HERE FACE-TO-FACE.

>> IT HAS.

>> LIKE THEY TOLD ME, LIKE, HEY, CHRISTIANE WANT TO BE ON THE SHOW, I'M GOING TO BE IN LONDON!

I HAVE TO MEET HER.

IT'S MUCH BETTER TO BE IN PERSON.

>> IT'S MUCH BETTER TO BE IN PERSON.

OF COURSE, I NOTE IMMEDIATELY WHAT YOU'RE WEARING.

YOU ARE WEARING A -- >> THIS?

>> I DIDN'T NOTICE.

THEY JUST PUT IT ON ME.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT'S THE PALESTINIAN COLORS.

AND ON IT IS ALSO A FIXED -- A DOVE, WHICH IS THE SYMBOL OF PEACE.

>> YES.

>> WHAT ARE YOU SAYING TO US?

>> ME, NO, JUST, LIKE, THE FACT IS, LIKE, I COME TO A COUNTRY, HERE IN LONDON, ALSO IN THE STATES, WHERE PEOPLE LIKE HAVING TO, YOU KNOW, SHOW THEIR FLAGS OR SHOW THE CLOTH CLOTHES, THEY ARE DEEMED TERRORISTS.

I'M GOING TO TRY TO WEAR IT.

YOUR -- HAVE YOU BEEN STOPPED ON THE STREET?

>> NO, NOT YET, BECAUSE I DIDN'T WEAR IT ON THE STREET.

>> TESTING IT OUT WITH US?

>> I'M TESTING IT HERE.

SEE HOW IT GOES.

>> SO, LISTEN, YOU HAVE FAMILY IN GAZA, YOUR WIFE'S FAMILY, YO IN-LAWS ARE THERE, RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> CAN YOU TALK TO THEM?

>> NO, I MEAN, I'VE BEEN TOURING, SO, IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT.

IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT ENOUGH TO BE IN TOUCH WITH MY WIFE AND FAMILY.

THEY HAVE MANY FAMILIES THERE, COUSINS AND UNCLES, AND THEY HAVE ALL LEFT THEIR HOUSES AND NOW THEY ARE IN ONE APARTMENT IN ONE BUILDING IN RAFAH, SHARING IT WITH 25 OTHER FAMILIES.

>> AT ANY MOMENT, THEY CAN HEAR A BOMB DROP, BUT ISRAEL WILL APOLOGIZE.

I WAS SO HAPPY TO HEAR ABOUT THEIR SINCERE APOLOGY KILLING THE PEOPLE FROM CENTRAL KITCHEN, LIKE, OH, MY GOD, THE PAIN THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH.

ONE OF THEIR SPOKESMAN TWEETED, SEE WHAT HAMAS MADE ME DO?

IT IS SO INTERESTING.

AND THE THING IS, WHAT'S REALLY, FOR ME, WHAT'S VERY INTERESTING IS THE OUTRAGE, THE GLOBAL OUTCRY, LIKE, OH, HOW COULD YOU DO THAT, ISRAEL?

BUT WE FORGET, WE FORGET JAMES MILLER, A BRITISH FILMMAKER THAT WAS ALSO KILLED BY ISRAELI SNIPERS, WE FORGET TOM HEARTLAND, HE WAS A BRITISH ACTIVIST, WHO WAS KILLED IN THE HEAD WITH A -- WE FORGET THE AMERICAN PALESTINIAN REPORTER.

IT'S LIKE, EVERY TIME, OH, HAMAS DID IT, OH, WE DID, WE'RE SO SORRY, LET'S CONTINUE.

IT'S JUST -- THERE'S NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND I SAY IT EVERYWHERE I GO, IF ISRAEL TODAY ENDED THE WAR, THEY WOULD BE ACTUALLY PRAISED, LIKE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR NOT KILLING MORE PALESTINIANS.

MAYBE THEY EVEN GIVE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO NETANYAHU.

THIS WILL HAPPEN, YOU KNOW?

THIS WILL ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

ISRAEL WILL BE PRAISED, IT WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO ACCOUNTABILITY WHAT THEY DID IN GAZA FOR THE PAST SIX MONTHS.

THIS IS WHAT PAINS ME.

IT'S NOT LIKE THE ENDING OF THE WAR.

AFTER THE WAR, LIKE NOTHING WILL BE DONE.

>> HOW DO I REACT TO YOU?

HOW DO I REACT TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND THE -- THE WAY THIS IS ALSO IN YOUR STANDUP -- >> IT'S NOT IN MY STANDUP.

>> YOU DON'T?

>> I DON'T.

FOR EVERYBODY COMING TO MY SHOW, I DON'T SPEAK ABOUT THE CURRENT EVENTS, BECAUSE I CAN'T.

I DO MY SHOW, WHICH IS MY PERSONAL STORY, IT'S STILL A VERY FUNNY SHOW, PLEASE COME TO THE SHOW, AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT.

IT'S THE ONLY WAY I CAN HAVE A BREAK.

I CANNOT DEAL WITH THAT IN A DAILY BASIS.

>> TELL ME ABOUT YOUR SHOW.

>> MY SHOW IS MY OWN PERSONAL STORY.

HAD TO BE INTERROGATED FOR HIS COMEDY FOR SIX HOURS.

HAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY -- >> YOUR OWN COUNTRY.

>> YES.

AND CAME TO UNITED STATES AND THEN I COME TO UNITED STATES AND I FIND DONALD TRUMP BEING PRESIDENT AND I TALK ABOUT ALL -- EVERYTHING THAT I TALK ABOUT IN MY SHOW HAPPENED.

I FIND MYSELF IN A GUN RALLY, IF I FIND TWO BLOCKS AWAY FROM A BOMBING.

I FIND MYSELF IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO GET AMERICAN CITIZEN.

SO, IT'S MORE OF A PERSONAL STORY THAT ANYBODY CAN RELATE TO.

I DON'T INSERT WHAT'S HAPPENING, BECAUSE STANDUP IS USUALLY ABOUT STUFF THAT'S EVERGREEN AND I REALLY CAN'T -- MAYBE I CAN FIND -- MAYBE OTHER PEOPLE CAN FIND, BUT I CAN'T DO IT, FIND IT IN MYSELF -- >> BUT IS IT DIFFICULT?

BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO YOU ARE.

YOU REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU STILL LIKE THIS, BUT YOU WERE THE EGYPTIAN JON STEWART, YOU WERE ON HIS SHOW, YOU KNOW, YOU WERE INCREDIBLY, NUMBER ONE VIEWING IN EGYPT UNTIL, AS YOU SAY, YOU HAD TO LEAVE.

IS IT DIFFICULT?

DO YOU FEEL YOURSELF, LIKE, SO MANY, PULLED AND TUGGED TO MAKE DECLARATIONS, TO BE AN ACTIVIST?

TO TAKE A SIDE?

AND TO SPEAK OUT?

>> I HAD THIS FIRST WHEN I WAS STARTING WITH STANDUP COMEDY IN ENGLISH.

PEOPLE WERE EXPECTING TO SEE MORE OF MY SHOW BACK IN EGYPT.

PEOPLE EXPECT TO SEE MORE OF WHAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE INTERVIEWS, BUT I DON'T.

BUT THEY STILL HAVE A GOOD TIME.

THEY ARE COMING FOR THE ART OF THE COMEDY.

AGAIN, LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE CURRENT EVENTS RIGHT NOW IS NOT REALLY COMEDY TO TALK ABOUT.

BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AS LONG AS ISRAEL IS APOLOGIZING, ALL WILL BE GOOD.

AND YOU ASKED ME IN THE BEGINNING, HOW DO YOU REACT TO IT?

AND I WANT YOU TO REACT TO ME AS IF WE ARE BOTH SIT ESSENTIALS OF THE WORLD.

>> I DID.

THAT'S WHAT I SAID, WHAT YOU'RE DOING, AND YOUR PEACE THING -- >> I WANT YOU FOR ONE SECOND, HAVE AN EXERCISE, LIKE, STEP OUT OF YOUR ANCHOR'S CHAIR, AND LOOK AT THE WESTERN MEDIA AS A VIEWER.

AND SEE, FROM THE EYE OF A VIEWER, THE HORRENDOUS JOB THAT THE WESTERN MEDIA HAS DONE.

BECAUSE FOR MONTHS, THE WESTERN MEDIA WENT WITH THE ISRAELI STORY, DECAPITATED BABIES, GANG RAPE.

WE KNOW ABOUT THE DIRECTIVE, WE KNOW HOW THE ISRAELI TROOPS KILLED A LOT OF THEIR OWN CITIZENS, NOT THAT HAMAS DIDN'T DO ANYTHING, OF COURSE, ALL OF THE DECAPITATED BABY STORIES WERE DEBUNKED, THE STORY THAT ANTONY BLINKEN WENT IN AND TALK ABOUT, THE HAMAS FIGHTERS WHO KILLED AND RAPED AND CUT LIMBED AND THEN HAD BREAKFAST, ALL OF THAT WAS DEBUNKED.

AND THEN THE WESTERN MEDIA, NOT A SINGLE TIME SAID, I'M SORRY, WE LED YOU, WE LED THE WORLD TO BELIEVE THESE LIES TO JUSTIFY THE DAILY KILLING OF PALESTINIANS.

AND NOT A SINGLE PERSON CAME OUT AND RETRACTED THEIR LIES AND NOT EVEN SAID, WE SHOULD LOOK AT WHAT WE SAID AND WE APOLOGIZE FOR IT.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM, YOU KNOW?

AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WHAT HAPPENED, BUT NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT ON PALESTINIAN WOMEN EVERY SINGLE DAY.

NOBODY'S TALKING, I REMEMBER 2016, WHERE THE WHOLE MEDIA WAS UP IN ARMS ABOUT, LIKE, RUSSIA INTERFERENCE WITH -- IN ELECTIONS, NOBODY'S TALKING ABOUT HOW BASICALLY BACKING ABOUT PAYING ALL OF THESE POLITICIANS TO -- TO WIN THEIR ELECTIONS.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THAT.

AND I WONDER, AS SOMEONE WHO LEFT THE MIDDLE EAST AND CAME TO THE WEST WITH A PROMISE OF FREE EXPRESSION, AND TO SAY WHATEVER I WANT, AND I COME HERE AND I SAY ALL OF THESE RED LINES ABOUT NOT TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL, BECAUSE IF YOU TALK ABOUT ISRAEL, IF YOU TALK ABOUT IT, YOU'RE GOING TO BE SOMETHING CALLED ANTI-SEMITIC.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT STILL?

I NOTICED, CERTAINLY IN THE WESTERN MEDIA, THAT THE TONE HAS CHANGED QUITE A LOT FROM THE BEGINNING, AND THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTS THAT HAVE DOCUMENTED SEXUAL AGGRESSION AND ASSAULT AGAINST WOMEN AND THE U.N. HAS COME OUT AND TALKED ABOUT IT, AS WELL.

>> DID IT RECEIVE THE SAME COVERAGE, THE SAME TIME?

DID THEY RETRACT ALL OF THEIR LIES THEY SAID ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED?

NO.

>> DO YOU NOT THINK THE TONE IS CHANGING?

GIVEN THE MOUNTING DEATH TOLL?

>> SLIGHTLY.

BUT IT IS -- IT IS PERFORMATIVE.

PERFORMATIVE RAGE, LIKE, THE WORLD SO ENRAGED BY ISRAELIS KILLING THE SEVEN WORKERS.

WE TALK ABOUT THAT, BUT I FIND THAT THERE IS MORE RAGE ABOUT KILLING SEVEN FOREIGN WORKERS MORE THAN THE RAGE ABOUT -- >> WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE -- I MEAN, LOOK.

>> REMEMBER WHEN WE 30,000 WAS TOO MUCH?

THAT WAS TOO MUCH?

YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?

TOMORROW, 300,000 PALESTINIANS KILLED?

NOBODY WILL CARE.

NOBODY WILL CARE.

NUMBERS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> BECAUSE THEY DON'T LOOK AT PALESTINIANS AS EQUAL HUMANING BES.

>> WE SPOKE TO QUEEN RANIA ON THIS PROGRAM SEVERAL TIMES.

SHE WAS THE FIRST LEADER TO COME OUT AND TALK ABOUT DOUBLE STANDARDS AND HER INTERVIEW WITH US WAS SIN CREDIBLY WIDELY SEEN, AND SHE SAID SIMILAR TO YOU, THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD IN THE WAY PALESTINIAN SUFFERING HAS ALWAYS BEEN REPORTED AND CONTINUES TO BE REPORTED.

IT IS REALLY HARD TO HEAR YOU SAY AND HEAR OTHERS SAY THAT THEY DON'T LOOK AT US AS PEOPLE.

>> BECAUSE THEY WERE DEEMED ANIMALS, TERRORISTS, HAMAS SYMPATHIZERS.

THE THING IS, ISRAEL REMINDS ME A LOT OF TRUMP.

REMEMBER WHEN HE WAS SAYING LIE AFTER LIE AND BY THE TIME PEOPLE DEAL WITH THIS, HE'S ALREADY MOVED ON AND PEOPLE ARE LIKE, ALL RIGHT, THAT'S DONALD TRUMP.

ISRAEL IS DOING THE SAME.

THEY ARE DOING -- REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE OUT ALL THE RAGE ABOUT, LIKE, BABIES KILLED IN INCUBATORS THAN BABIES KILLED OF HUNGER, THAN PEOPLE KILLED IN STAMPEDE -- IT'S OLD NEWS NOW.

REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DID HAMAS OR ISRAEL BOMB THE HOSPITAL?

AND SINCE THEN, ISRAEL BOMBED 36 HOSPITALS?

IT'S JUST -- THEY MOVE TOO FAST.

AND BY THE TIME YOU JUST CATCH UP AND YOU CORNER THEM, IT'S LIKE, WELL, IF YOU TALK ABOUT IT, YOU'RE ANTI-SEMITIC.

I'M DOING THIS TO PROTECT MYSELF.

HERE'S THE THING.

EVERY TIME ISRAEL SAY THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF, ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST, AND I WANT TO SAY, ISRAEL HAS THE RIGHT TO GO F ITSELF.

>> THAT'S YOUR STANDUP.

IT'S NOT YOUR STANDUP, ACTUALLY.

>> IT'S NOT.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT AND THE ARAB WORLD.

I THINK YOU WILL PROBABLY ALSO AGREE THAT THE ARAB NATIONS, FRANKLY, HAVE NOT DONE MUCH TO HELP THE PALESTINIANS OVER THE DECADES SINCE 1948, AND ON A DIFFERENT ISSUE, YOU AND I SPOKE BEFORE YOU WERE FORCED TO LEAVE IN 2013, AND YOU WERE FEELING THE HEAT, BECAUSE YOU WERE BUSY SATIRIZING WHOEVER NEEDED TO BE SATIRIZED, UNTIL IT WASN'T ALLOWED ANYMORE.

I WANT TO, YOU KNOW, PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE YOU WERE FACING CHARGES INSULTING.

>> THIS IS MODERN TIME INKWI SITUATION, WHERE THEY HOLD PEOPLE FOR THEIR WORDS, AND THEY USE HOLY REASONS TO PUT THEM IN JAIL, SO -- I'M NOT WORRIED, BECAUSE I HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING TO INSULT MY RELIGION, WHICH I'M PROUD OF, AND THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO WANT TO MAKE IT AS IF IT IS A FIGHT OR A STRUGGLE BETWEEN SECULARS AND MUSLIMS.

THIS IS NOT TRUE.

>> I'M WATCHING YOU LEANING IN, WATCHING -- >> I WAS SO YOUNG.

I WAS SO YOUNG.

WHAT HAPPENED TO ME?

>> LIFE HAPPENED TO YOU.

SO, WHAT WAS IT LIKE -- WHAT WAS IT LIKE, STARTING OVER IN AMERICA?

>> IT WAS TERRIBLE.

>> BECAUSE YOU WENT FROM BEING NUMBER ONE STAR -- >> INTO A NOBODY.

>> YEAH, INTO A NOBODY.

>> I WAS GOING INTO COMEDY CLUBS TRYING TO MAKE IT THERE AND PEOPLE NOT LAUGHING AND IT -- IT HUMILIATES YOU.

AND IT WAS A JOURNEY.

IT -- AND DOING STANDUP COMEDY -- DOING STANDUP COMEDY IN GENERAL, DOING IT IN YOUR SECOND LANGUAGE IS AN ADDED PRESSURE.

I REMEMBER MY FANS FROM EGYPT WOULD COME TO MY SHOW AND SEE ME, OF COURSE, I WASN'T GOOD.

THEY WERE SO DISAPPOINTED.

THEY WERE LIKE, OH, HE'S GOING TO DRIVE AN UBER IN SIX MONTHS FROM NOW, HE'S DONE.

SO, THAT KIND OF -- >> HOW DID YOU LEARN?

HOW DID YOU RISE ABOVE THAT AND ACTUALLY LEARN TO DO COMEDY IN, I GUESS YOU DO IT IN TWO LANGUAGES NOW, WHEREVER YOU ARE?

>> YES, I DO IT IN -- I DO AN ENGLISH, SOMETIMES IN ARABIC, BUT HOW?

THROUGH A LOT OF FAILURE.

A LOT OF FAILURE.

YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A LOT OF FAILURE AND HUMBLE YOURSELF AND ACCEPT THAT KIND OF FAILURE.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR AUDIENCE IS GETTING FROM YOU NOW, IF IT'S NOT THE SATIRE ON THE -- >> NO, IT'S STILL A SATIRE.

>> I MEAN ON THE EVENTS OF THE DAY, THAT ARE JUST TOO DIFFICULT.

>> I THINK SOME OF THE BEST COMEDIES ARE VERY PERSONAL.

AND THE MORE PERSONAL THE COMEDY IS, THE MORE ACTUALLY PEOPLE MIGHT SEE IT EASIER TO RELATE TO YOU AS A PERSON, AS A HUMAN BEING.

SO, THAT'S -- THEY GET -- A LOT OF PEOPLE COME.

PEOPLE COME FROM ALL OVER -- WHITE PEOPLE, BANGLADESH, INDIA, PAKISTAN, PEOPLE FROM AFRICA, PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, THEY RELATE A LOT TO THE STORY, EVEN THOUGH IT'S A UNIQUE STORY, BUT IT'S NOT THAT UNIQUE.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HUMAN STRUGGLE AGAINST EXPECTATIONS AND HOW WE CAN NAVIGATE THAT.

>> I'VE ALWAYS NOTICED THAT YOUR STRUGGLE IS TOWARDS BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

THAT'S WHAT I'VE NOTICED.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A PROJECT THAT I READ ABOUT AND I WANT TO KNOW IT'S TRUE.

YOU BOUGHT THE RIGHTS TO A BOOK, THE BOOK HAPPENS TO BE CALLED "THE MUSLIM AND THE JEW," IT'S TRANSLATED IN ENGLISH, IT'S WRITTEN BY A GERMAN AUTHOR.

AND IT TELLS THE STORY OF A GROUP OF EGYPTIANS AND ARABS WHO LIVED IN BERLIN, BASICALLY SAVED HUNDREDS OF JEWS FROM THE LOW LOW COST.

TELL ME ABOUT THE STORY, AND WHY YOU WANT TO DO THIS.

>> THIS IS A STORY THAT I BOUGHT THE RIGHTS TO A YEAR AGO, EVEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

AND AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

I ACTUALLY BOUGHT THE LIVE RIGHTS, NOT JUST THE OPTION FOR TWO YEARS.

IT'S TRANSLATED TO AN ENGLISH BOOK, AND IT TALKS ABOUT AN EGYPTIAN DOCTOR WHO LIVED IN BERLIN UNDER NAZI GERMANY AND HE FORMED A GROUP OF UNDERGROUND NETWORK WITH OTHER ARABS, AND SAVED 300 JEWS FROM THE LOW LOW COST.

AND I THINK IT'S A GREAT STORY, BECAUSE THE HOLOCAUST IS A HUMAN STORY, NOT JUST A JEWISH STORY, DEFINITELY NOT AN ISRAELI STORY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE ARE PEOPLE, AND WE HAVE SO MUCH IN COMMON, AND WE SHOULD NOT USE HUMAN TRAGEDIES, WE SHOULD NOT USE EXCUSES OF DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES IN ORDER TO INFLICT THE SAME PAIN THAT WAS DONE UPON US ON OTHER PEOPLE.

ESPECIALLY IF THOSE PEOPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT TRAGEDY.

AND I WANT TO SHOW THAT, LIKE, EVEN BEFORE THE ESTABLISHMENT TO ISRAEL, ARABS AND JEWS IN GERMANY LIVED A LIFE OF HARMONY AND COHABATION AND THEY WERE EVEN CLOSER TOGETHER THAN THE GERMAN CHRISTIANS.

AND THE HOLOCAUST IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF OUR CONTEMPORARY HISTORY, AND WE HAVE A ROLE IN IT, LIKE, SAVING OTHER PEOPLES FROM THERE, AND WE'RE BEING ERASED.

SO, AS AN ARAB, I WANT TO ACTUALLY SHOW OUR STORY, OURSELF, AND PUT US INTO THE PLACE WHERE WE ACTUALLY HAVE A SAY AND A PLACE IN HUMAN HISTORY.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

GAS SEEM YOUSEF, THANK YOU -- JUST QUICKLY, TELL ME, YOU'RE GOING WHERE NEXT?

>> OH, YOU READY?

SO, APRIL 6th, I START IN LONDON, THE APOLLO.

YOU'RE INVITED.

PARIS, AMSTERDAM, OSLO, BERLIN, MUNICH, HAMBURG, ZURICH, ANTWERP, STOCKHOLM, LONDON AGAIN, TWICE, DUBLIN, COPENHAGEN, BIRMINGHAM, MANCHESTER, AND PARIS AGAIN.

>> WOW.

WELL -- BASSEM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, APPRECIATE YOU.

>>> NOW, CONGRESS IS BROKEN, SO SAY STAFFERS AND ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES WHO ARE QUITTING MID-TERM.

A RECENT SURVEY BY THE NONPROFIT CONGRESSIONAL MANAGEMENT FOUNDATION FOUND THAT A LARGE MAJORITY OF SENIOR STAFFERS BELIEVE THE LEGISLATIVE BODY IS JUST NOT FUNCTIONING, AND THE POLARIZATION AND RHETORIC ARE CAUSING THEM TO WANT TO LEAVE THEIR JOBS.

CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR CHARLIE SYKES JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE GREAT RESIGNATION.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

CHARLIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> YOU STARTED WRITING ABOUT CONGRESSIONAL RESIGNATIONS BACK IN 2021.

WHAT DID YOU NOTICE THEN?

>> WELL, WHAT I NOTICED THEN WAS A NUMBER OF THE RISING STARS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, PEOPLE WHO HAD RELATIVELY SAFE SEATS, WHO WERE LOOKING AROUND, SAYING, I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THIS.

YOU HAD SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD LONG CAREERS AHEAD OF THEM IN CONGRESS, AND I THINK DECIDED THAT THIS IS NOT WORTH IT FOR THEM, THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS SITTING IN A CAUCUS WITH THE PEOPLE WHO WANTED CHAOS, WHO WERE MORE INTERESTED IN PROMOTING THEMSELVES THAN ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING, AND, OF COURSE, THIS WAS NOT THE BEGINNING OF THE GREAT RESIGNATION, DEPARTURE, BRAIN DRAIN, BUT IT'S BEEN ACCELERATING, PARTICULARLY AMONG RETURNS.

>> AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, AMONG MIDTERM RESIGNATIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN SIX REPUBLICANS, ALSO TWO DEMOCRATS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

IT'S EASY TO NORMALIZE A LOT OF THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN POLITICS, BE YOU THE NUMBER OF -- NUMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT ACTUALLY ARE RESIGNING AND SOME OF THEM, SOME OF THE YOUNGER MEMBERS LIKE MIKE GALLAGHER FROM WISCONSIN, RESIGNING IN SUCH A WAY AS TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE THEM REPLACED IN THIS PARTICULAR TERM, IS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

AND I THINK IT'S REALLY AN INDICATION OF JUST HOW MUCH DECISION ILLUSIONMENT THERE IS, THAT THEY DON'T EVEN WANT TO SERVE THROUGH THEIR TERM.

WHAT MAKES IT EVEN MORE INTERESTING IS THAT EACH OF THESE RESIGNATIONS SHRINKS THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY.

THE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY WAS RAZOR THIN TO BEGIN WITH, BUT NOW, AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING, IS DOWN TO ONE VOTE.

THIS CREATES A REALLY DIFFICULT, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE DILEMMA FOR THE LEADERSHIP, AND YOU HAVE TO THINK THAT SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO RESIGNED KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING, AND SO, THEY WERE SENDING A MESSAGE RATHER DRAMATICALLY.

>> YOU KNOW, THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, WHO IS KIND OF AT THE ROOT OF A LOT OF THIS, HE, IN A SORT OF SERIES OF KIND OF TIRADES ON EASTER SUNDAY, TOOK SPECIAL NOTICE OF MIKE GALLAGHER AND ALSO ANOTHER -- ANOTHER MEMBER, KEN BUCK, WHO ALSO DECIDED TO RETIRE, SAYING, NEVER FORGET OUR COWARDS AND WEAK LINGS, SUCH A DISGRACE.

SO, NOT A NEW PHENOMENON TO PERSONALLY VILIFY PEOPLE WHO DON'T SERVE HIS INTERESTS.

BUT DO YOU -- TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MIKE GALLAGHER, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK WENT INTO HIS DECISION?

>> WELL, MIKE GALLAGHER WAS ONE OF THE FEW GENUINE RISING STARS IN THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW, THERE WERE MOMENTS WHEN HE DISAPPOINTED ME, YOU KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, ON JANUARY 6th, HE TAPED A YOUTUBE APPEAL TO DONALD TRUMP TO CALL OFF THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT THESE WERE THE PRESIDENT'S SUPPORTERS.

BUT THEN HE BACKED OFF AND DID NOT SUPPORT IMPEACHMENT AND DID NOT BECOME A NEVER TRUMPER, WENT ALONG WITH THE EXCOMMUNICATION OF LIZ CHENEY, BUT HAVING SAID THAT WAS A SUBSTANTIVE GUY.

HE WAS SORT OF IN THE MOLD OF A PAUL RYAN TYPE OF REPUBLICAN, YOUNG, POLICY-ORIENTED, AND IS AN INDICATION OF THE WAY HIS COLLEAGUES THOUGHT ABOUT HIM, THEY NAMED HIM THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON CHINA, WHERE HE HAD A VERY, VERY HIGH PROFILE POSITION.

MIKE GALLAGHER WAS ONE OF THOSE YOUNG REPUBLICANS WHO COULD HAVE BEEN IN CONGRESS FOR ANOTHER 40 YEARS.

HE'S UNDER 40 YEARS OLD.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN THERE A VERY LONG TIME.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A FUTURE SPEAKER.

AND YET, HE LOOKED AROUND HIM AND SAID, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE.

THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS PLACE.

AND HE RESIGNED.

NOW, AGAIN, THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO TRIED TO APPEASE THE TRUMPIST WING OF THE PARTY.

HE TRIED TO GO ALONG.

HE TRIED TO RIDE THAT TIGER.

HE SUPPORTED KEVIN McCARTHY.

HE WENT ALONG WITH ALMOST EVERYTHING THE REPUBLICANS WERE DOING UP UNTIL HE COULDN'T ANYMORE, AND THEN HE DECIDED, HE'S OUT OF THERE.

AND THE WAY HE LEFT WAS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

IT WAS A BIG SHOCK THAT HE DECIDED NOT TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND IT WAS AN EVEN BIGGER SHOCK THAT HE WAS RESIGNING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TERP, BUT THE REAL TWIST WAS THAT HE RESIGNED IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT'S TOO LATE TO HOLD A SPECIAL ELECTION TO FILL HIS SEAT IN WISCONSIN, WHICH MEANS THERE'S NO WAY THAT REPUBLICANS CAN REPLACE HIM, SO IT WAS -- IT WAS REALLY QUITE SOMETHING FOR SOMEBODY WHO WAS A RISING STAR, AND IN MANY WAYS, A TEAM PLAYER, AND UNDERLIES, I THINK, YOU KNOW, TWO THINGS, THE LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION AND DISGUST, BUT ALSO THE ONGOING BRAIN DRAIN OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> DEMOCRATS ARE LEAVING, TOO, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, 30 DEMOCRATS, 24 REPUBLICANS, EITHER RETIRING OR SEEKING OTHER OFFICE.

DO YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S ALSO REFLECTING THE FACT THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH A CONGRESS THAT IS BROKEN.

AND IT'S NOT JUST MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

YOU'LL SEEING NEW STUDIES OF SENIOR STAFFERS WHO ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE CONTEMPLATING LEAVING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, CONGRESS IS NO LONGER REALLY A FUNCTIONAL BODY.

AND IF YOU WENT INTO POLITICS, OR YOU WENT INTO GOVERNMENT BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO PASS LEGISLATION, YOU'RE LOOKING AROUND AND SAYING, AH, THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURES MATTER.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE GET INTO TOPICS FOR LOTS OF REASONS, BIG EGOS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT PUBLIC POLICY, BUT THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURE NO LONGER PUSHES THEM TOWARDS RESPONSIBLE LEGISLATION.

IT REWARDS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE MOST EXTREME, THE LOUDEST, WHO -- WHO PLAY TO SOCIAL MEDIA HITS.

AND I THINK THAT FOR A CLASS OF POLITICIANS, THEY LOOK AROUND AND GO, OKAY, THIS IS NOT WHAT I THOUGHT, THIS IS NOT WHAT I GOT INTO POLITICS, I WANT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

SO, THE NUMBERS -- AND IT'S NOT JUST THIS TERM.

IF YOU LOOK BACK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, SPECIFICALLY, SINCE DONALD TRUMP CAME ON THE SCENE, IT'S REALLY BEEN A VERY DRAMATIC TURNOVER.

YOU LOOK AT THAT CLASS THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, THE CLASS FROM, SAY, 2017, I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, BUT THE ATTRITION HAS BEEN INCREDIBLE.

SO, YOU'RE SEEING A TURNOVER NOT JUST A GENERATIONAL TURNOVER, BUT A CULTURAL TURNOVER IN THE KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CONGRESS NOW, AND WILL BE IN CONGRESS PROBABLY FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL DECADES.

>> JUST TO PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE FOR A MINUTE, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE THAT ARGUE THAT REALLY THE GENERATIONAL PIECE OF THIS IS THAT YOUNGER PEOPLE, THE GEN-X ERES, THE POSTBABY BOOMERS -- IT'S A GENERATIONAL SORT OF ETHOS THAT, IF THIS ISN'T SATISFYING, I'M OUT.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME COMMITMENT TO INSTITUTIONS THAT THEIR PREDECESSORS HAD.

>> THERE'S PART OF THAT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT ACCOUNTS FOR THIS DRAMATIC TURNOVER.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, ANY GROUP OF FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMEN, YOU'LL FIND THEY COME FROM A DIFFERENT POLITICAL TRADITION.

IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF AGE.

IT'S ALSO A MATTER OF CULTURE, IT'S A MATTER OF WHAT THEY THINK THE ROLE OF CONGRESS SHOULD BE.

SO, I DO THINK THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SEPARATE OUT THIS SORT OF VAST DEPARTURE FROM CONGRESS, FROM THE INSTITUTIONAL DECAY THAT WE'RE SEEING HERE.

GRIDLOCK MAY BE ENTERTAINING FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT WING OF THE MEDIA, BUT BEING IN THE MINORITY, BEING IN CONGRESS CAN BE VERY FRUSTRATING.

PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU HAVE A CONGRESS THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.

SO, IF YOU'RE A MEMBER -- IN YOU'RE A BACK BENCHER IN CONGRESS, YOU MAY SIT ON A COMMITTEE, BUT SINCE LEGISLATION NO LONGER GOES THROUGH REGULAR ORDER, YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE ANY SAY, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CLOUD.

YOU HAVE THE PRESTIGE, YOU ARE THE GOOD SALARY, YOU HAVE THE BENEFITS, AND IN THE PAST, THAT'S BEEN ENOUGH TO KEEP PEOPLE AROUND FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

NOW, I THINK THE FRUSTRATION LEVEL, THE HYPER PARTISANSHIP, THE THREATS, THE INSULT, THE TOXICITY OF THE ENVIRONMENT, JUST IS DRIVING PEOPLE OUT.

AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN OVERSTATE THE FACT THAT, IF YOU GO TO WORK EVERY DAY WITH TOXIC NARCISSISTS, IT'S GOING TO WEIGH ON YOU.

AND AT A CERTAIN POINT, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO -- I WOULD LOVE TO BE A CONGRESSMAN, I WOULD LOVE TO BE A CONGRESSMAN FOR THE NEXT 20, 30 YEARS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE DEALING WITH TOXIC NARCISSISTS IN AN INSTITUTION THAT IS SO FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN, AS THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IS.

>> AND WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

WHO ARE THESE TOXIC NARCISSISTS?

>> I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE NAMES ARE GOING TO BE TERRIBLY SURPRISING.

I'M TRYING TO IMAGINE BEING A SERIOUS REPUBLICAN MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND LOOKING AROUND, THINKING, SO, I HAVE TO SPEND THE NEXT TWO YEARS SITTING NEXT TO MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN AND MATT GAETZ AND LAUREN BOEBERT AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE, IN THE PAST, YOU KNOW, LOUIE GOHMERT AND PAUL GOSAR?

THE FOLKS THAT GENERALLY GARNER THE ATTENTION, AND THAT HAVE, FRANKLY, BEEN SPONSORED BY THE PARTY LEADERSHIP.

LOOK.

THE FACT IS, THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A CHAOS CAUCUS.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A SMALL GROUP OF UNSERIOUS PEOPLE.

JOHN BOEHNER CALLED, I THINK HIS TERM FOR THE FREEDOM CAUCUS, THEY WERE LEGISLATIVE TERRORISTS.

BUT IN THE PAST, THERE WAS A BEEN ABLE TO ISOLATE THEM.

NOW, THAT'S NO LONGER THE CASE.

AND THEY HAVE THE COVER OF THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, DONALD TRUMP, WHO HAS BEEN ENCOURAGING AND PROMOTING SOME OF THE MOST EXTREME VOICES.

AND AS LONG AS THAT'S THE CASE, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE USED TO CALL THE GROWNUPS IN THE ROOM, OR, THE NORMIES, NO LONGER ARE ABLE TO CHECK THEM.

>> I'M IN WASHINGTON, FOR BETTER OR WORSE, AND, YOU KNOW, I CONSTANTLY HEAR MY COLLEAGUES WHO ARE UP ON THE HILL FULL-TIME, OR MOST OF THE TIME, SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY KNOW BETTER.

THAT'S, LIKE, THE -- THE OPERATIVE PHRASE, THEY KNOW BETTER, OR, THEY DON'T REALLY BELIEVE HALF THE STUFF THEY'RE SAYING.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY DON'T THE PEOPLE WHO DID GO THERE TO LEGISLATE GET TOGETHER AND DO THEIR JOB?

>> WELL, OCCASIONALLY, THEY DO, WHICH IS WHY THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T SHUT DOWN, BUT THIS HAS BEEN THE STORY OF THE LAST SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS IN OUR POLITICS, THAT YOU HAVE -- PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER WHO ARE SIMPLY AFRAID TO TAKE THAT STAND.

FEAR IS -- IS A HUGE FACTOR IN MODERN POLITICAL POLITICS.

THEY'RE AFRAID OF DONALD TRUMP, THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE BASE, THEY'RE AFRAID OF MEAN SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS.

ALSO, JUST KEEP IN MIND, THROUGH THE RECENT HISTORY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, YOU HAD JOHN BOEHNER WHO WAS A VERY, VERY SKILLED LEGISLATOR, WHO ULTIMATELY WAS NOT ABLE TO -- WHO RESIGNED, BECAUSE HE WAS NOT ABLE TO KEEP CONTROL OF THE -- OF THE CHAOS CAUCUS.

PAUL RYAN HAD A HUGE MAJORITY TO WORK WITH AND YET HE ULTIMATELY DECIDED THAT HE NEEDED TO LEAVE, AS WELL.

NOW WE HAVE PEOPLE LIKE KEVIN McCARTHY, IT FEELS LIKE -- KEEP STEPPING DOWN.

YOU HAD KEVIN McCARTHY WHO LASTED LESS THAN A YEAR, AND THE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON CURRENTLY HAS VERY LITTLE LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE.

AND I THINK THAT'S ON DISPLAY.

SO, HE NOT ONLY HAS LITTLE OR NO LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE, BUT HE HAS LITTLE OR NO MARGIN FOR ERROR ANY LONGER.

HE'S SEEN WHAT'S HAPPENED TO KEVIN McCARTHY, AND NOW, AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING, HE'S GOT A ONE-VOTE MARGIN, SO -- HIS ABILITY TO GET THINGS DONE IS EXTREMELY LIMITED, IT ONLY TAKES A SMALL NUMBER, IT ONLY TOOK EIGHT REPUBLICANS TO THROW THE HOUSE INTO CHAOS FOR PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE YEAR.

I MEAN, HARRY TRUMAN BACK IN 1948 RAN AGAINST THE DO NOTHING REPUBLICAN CONGRESS, THAT CONGRESS LOOKS LIKE A LEGISLATIVE JUGGERNAUT COMPARED TO THIS CONGRESS, IN PART BECAUSE THEY SPENT SO MUCH TIME FIGHTING WITH THEMSELVES.

SO, NOW WE COME TO THIS MOMENT WHERE, IF MIKE JOHNSON WANTS TO GET ANYTHING DONE, HE ESSENTIALLY HAS TO ENGAGE IN A COALITION GOVERNMENT.

HE HAS TO RELY ON DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

AND THE NUMBER ONE CARDINAL SIN FOR THE REPUBLICAN BASE RIGHT NOW IS COMPROMISING WITH DEMOCRATS, WORKING WITH DEMOCRATS, GIVING DEMOCRATS ANYTHING LIKE A WIN.

SO, IT IS A RADIOACTIVE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT FOR THE SPEAKER, WHO HAS TO FIND SOME WAY TO LIMP THROUGH THIS YEAR UNTIL THE NEXT CONGRESS.

>> I MEAN, HE HAS BEEN WILLING TO NEGOTIATE WITH DEMOCRATS IN ORDER TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OPEN.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S DONE THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT IS THE BARE MINIMUM TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON.

BEFORE WE HAND OUT, YOU KNOW, PROFILES IN COURAGE HERE, THIS IS THE BARE MINIMUM FOR HIM TO DO THAT, BECAUSE THERE'S REALLY NO ALTERNATIVE.

I THINK THAT THE CHAOS SURROUNDING KEVIN McCARTHY MIGHT HAVE DAMPED DOWN THE APPETITE FOR CHAOS, BUT ONLY TEMPORARILY, BECAUSE THE CHAOS IS NOW BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM.

AND SO, WE HAVE THIS WEIRD SITUATION -- YOU REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN, ONE OF THE MOST DEMAGOGUES IN THE HOUSE, ACTUALLY SUPPORTED KEVIN McCARTHY.

SHE WAS, FOR A MOMENT, SUPPORTING THE REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT.

WELL, NOW, SHE IS -- SHE MAY BE LEADING THE EFFORT TO OUST THE CURRENT SPEAKER, WHO WOULD THEN NEED DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

YOU CAN'T MAKE UP THIS SCENARIO.

IT IS SORT OF A GAME OF THRONES WITHOUT ALL THE BLOOD.

AND SO, WE'RE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, BUT IN TERMS OF GETTING ACTUAL SUBSTANTIVE LEGISLATION THROUGH, THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.

>> BUT WHEN IT COMES TO SOMEBODY LIKE A MIKE GALLAGHER, A KEN BUCK.

IF YOU ARE WILLING TO RESIGN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TERM, THAT MEANS YOU'RE WILLING TO LOSE YOUR JOB, RIGHT?

IF IT WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU, TO HOLD ON, NO MATTER WHAT, YOU'D MAKE CERTAIN COMPROMISES.

SO, THAT'S WHY I REMAIN CONFUSED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE RESIGNING RATHER THAN FIGHT.

IF YOU DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU LOSE YOUR JOB, WHY NOT STAY AND FIGHT?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I WOULD HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW, DECIDE WHAT IT IS THAT IS MOST VALUABLE TO YOU, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, AID TO UKRAINE OR PERHAPS GETTING A RATIONAL IMMIGRATION BILL PASSED, I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BETTER TO STAY IN THE FIGHT.

I THINK THAT WHAT'S HAPPENED, THOUGH, THEY REALIZE IT'S HOPELESS.

THERE'S NO WAY THAT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

THIS CONGRESS IS NEVER GOING TO BECOME FUNCTIONAL.

I DO NOT WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE DEALING WITH THESE TOXIC DEMAGOGUES.

AND I THINK THE EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE LIKE LIZ CHENEY AND ADAM KINZINGER IS INSPIRING, BUT IT'S ALSO A CAUTIONARY TALE.

IT ALSO SAYS, IF YOU STAY IN THE FIGHT, YOU'RE GOING TO BE KILLED.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE EXILED.

AND UNDERSTAND FOR THE MODERN REPUBLICAN TO BREAK WITH THE PARTY THE WAY, SAY, A LIZ CHENEY HAS DONE, IS NOT JUST LOSING YOUR JOB.

IT MEANS YOU ARE BEING EXCOMMUNICATED AND EXILED FROM YOUR ENTIRE POLITICAL SOCIAL WORLD.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE SOMETIMES UNDERESTIMATE.

THAT IN OUR TRIBAL CULTURE, IT'S NOT JUST LOSING THE WORD JOB AN YOUR POSITION, IT'S ALL OF THE SOCIAL CONTACTS.

YOU KNOW, YOUR FAMILY, AND PEOPLE ASK ME THIS QUESTION, WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE BREAK?

WELL, IF YOU ARE WILL BE TO GIVE UP YOUR ENTIRE COMMUNITY, THEN, YOU KNOW, THEN FINE.

MOST PEOPLE AREN'T.

THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO ALIENATE THEMSELVES FROM THEIR FAMILY, THEIR FRIENDS, THEIR PROFESSIONAL CONTACTS.

YOU BREAK WITH THEM TOO STRONGLY, YOU WILL HAVE NO FUTURE IN LOBBYING, NO FUTURE IN ELECTED OFFICE, BUT ALSO, NO FUTURE AS A -- AS AN INFLUENCER IN THE PARTY.

YOU WILL NO LONGER HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOU HOPE IN THE CURRENT MOMENT?

>> I THINK ABOUT THE ONLY THING THAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT, THESE THINGS EXHAUST THEMSELVES.

NOW, I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR EIGHT YEARS, AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF WISH CASTING THAT, OF COURSE, THE FEVER WILL BREAK, THE FIRE WILL BURN ITSELF OUT.

I THINK WE'VE GOT A WAYS TO GO HERE.

I ALSO HAVE -- AND MAYBE IT'S NAIVE AT THIS POINT, BUT A SENSE OF THE INNATE DECENCY AND REASONABLENS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THAT YOU GET AWAY FROM POLITICS, YOU GO TO A LITTLE LEAGUE GAME OR A SOCCER GAME, YOU GO TO A PLAY OR A CONCERT, YOU TALK TO YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS, AND THEY'RE NOT AT EACH OTHER'S THROAT.

THEY'RE NOT BELIEVING THE CRAZIEST THINGS.

RIGHT NOW, OUR POLITICS IS BRINGING OUT THE WORST IN US.

AT SOME POINT, MAYBE THE BEST OF US WILL BE ABLE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST IT, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ANY TIME SOON.

>> CHARLIE SYKES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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