CRYSTAL: HELLO, I’M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON."

AFTER THE KILLING -- KILLINGS OF ERIC GARDNER AND GEORGE FLOYD, POLICE FOCUSED ON USING SO-CALLED LESS LETHAL FORCE, BUT A NEW FRONTLINE DOCUMENTARY UNCOVERS HOW OFTEN THOSE TACTICS TURN DEADLY.

THEN, MORE PEOPLE ARE LEAVING MASSACHUSETTS NOW THAN IN THE PAST TWO DECADES.

I WILL SPEAK TO THE AUTHOR OF THAT REPORT AS WELL AS ONE TRANSPLANT TO DISCUSS WHY HE MADE THE MOVE.

AFTER THE POLICE KILLINGS OF ERIC GARNER, PHILANDO CASTILE, GEORGE FLOYD, AND MANY MANY OTHERS, PROTESTS AND PUBLIC OUTRAGE FORCED POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO RE-EXAMINE THEIR USE OF FOURTH -- FORCE.

MANY CHOSE TO RELY ON WHAT THEY CALL LESS LETHAL FORCE.

AS JOURNALISTS FROM FRONTLINE AND THE ASSOCIATED PRESS FOUND OVER A THREE YEAR INVESTIGATION, THOSE TACTICS ARE STILL CONNECTED TO HUNDREDS OF DEATHS.

>> FROM 2012 THROUGH 2021, THEY FOUND 1030 SIX DEATHS THAT INVOLVES POLICE USING SOME KIND OF LESS LETHAL FORCE.

>> THESE ARE STILL RARE BUT IT HAPPENS MORE OFTEN THAN THE PUBLIC KNOWS ABOUT.

CRYSTAL: THEIR INVESTIGATION INTO THE FOCUS OF THIS NEW FRONTLINE FIELD, DOCUMENTING POLICE USE OF FOURTH -- A FORCE.

DIRECTOR SERGINHO ROOSBLAD JOINS ME NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW.

SERGINHO: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

CRYSTAL: THIS IS SUCH AN EMOTIONAL TOPIC, I IMAGINE FOR FAMILIES AND FOR FOLKS WHO WATCHED THE EVENTS OF REALLY THE SUMMER OF 2020 AND BEFORE THAT UNFOLD.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION AND HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO CREATE A THROUGH-LINE WHEN THERE WERE SO MANY NUANCED ISSUES TO CONNECT.

SERGINHO: THE FILM FOLLOWS THE WORK OF FIVE REPORTERS OUT OF DOZENS MORE THAT LOOKED AT WHAT POLICE COAL LESS LETHAL FORCE.

THIS COULD BE ANY FORCE BEYOND HANDCUFFS, IT COULD BE TAKING SOMEONE DOWN, TEASING SOMEONE, IT COULD EVEN BE SOMEONE BEING SEDATED.

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS LOOKED AT THE PERIOD FROM 2012 TO 2021 TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN INTERACTIONS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT WHEN THE USE WAS CALLED LESS LETHAL FORCE.

THE FILM LOOKS AT FOUR DIFFERENT CASES THAT ALL HAVE ELEMENTS THAT YOU LOOK AT THEM SEPARATELY, AND THROUGHOUT THE INVESTIGATION, EACH INCIDENT STAYS -- STANDS ON ITSELF.

ONCE YOU PUT THEM TOGETHER, YOU SEE PATTERNS.

ONE OF THE THROUGH-LINE’S OF THE FILM, FIRST OF ALL, THEY ARE ALL MEN.

THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE DATABASE ARE MEN.

97%.

AND THE SECOND IS, MANY WERE ON THE INTERSECTIONS OF STIMULANT DRUG USE OR HAVING SOME SORT OF MENTAL ILLNESS PROBLEM AT THE MOMENT.

CRYSTAL: WHEN DO WE FIND THAT THESE TACTICS START BECOMING MORE WIDELY USED?

IS IT AROUND THAT 2020 MARK?

HAD IT ALREADY BEEN IN THE TOOLBOX, BUT HAD NOT BEEN USED AS MUCH AS A GUN OR A BILLY CLUB IN SOME DEPARTMENTS?

SERGINHO: SOME OF THESE TACTICS HAVE BEEN REALLY OLD.

SOME OF THEM ARE LITTLE NEWER LIKE THE USE OF A TASER.

THAT IS DEFINITELY PRIOR TO 2020.

I THINK IT WAS EARLIER IN THE 2010S MANY POLICE DEPARTMENTS STARTED TO ADOPT THE USE OF A TASER.

ONE OF THE OTHER USES OF FORCE OR TACTICS POLICE HAVE IN THEIR TOOLBOX, PRONE RESTRAINT, IS REALLY OLD.

IT IS BASICALLY PUTTING SOMEONE ON THEIR STOMACH FACE DOWN IN ORDER TO HANDCUFF THEM AND HAVE CONTROL OVER THEM.

IT’S ALSO BEEN KNOWN FOR BY NOW, DECADES THAT IT COULD BE PROBLEMATIC TO CERTAIN PEOPLE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE OBESE OR HAVE CERTAIN DRUGS IN THEIR SYSTEM, AND OR IF YOU LEAVE THEM ON THEIR STOMACH FOR TOO LONG, THAT CAN BE A PROBLEM AS WELL.

LIKE ONE OF THE CASES WE FOUND, A PERSON WAS LEFT ON THEIR STOMACH IN A PRUNED -- PRONE RESTRAINT FOR 22 MINUTES.

IN 1995 ALREADY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PUT OUT A BULLETIN SAYING PRONE RESTRAINT COULD BE DANGEROUS, AND IF OFFICERS WANT TO HANDCUFF SOMEONE, THEY SHOULD ROLL THEM OVER INTO THEIR RESCUE POSITION, ON THEIR SIDE, SO THEY CAN CONTINUE TO PROPERLY BREATHE AND NOT LEAVE THEM IN THE PRONE POSITION FOR A PROLONGED AMOUNT OF TIME.

CRYSTAL: TO THAT POINT, WE ACTUALLY HAVE A PIECE OF SOUND FROM JUSTIN PRICHARD WITH THE AP DESCRIBING THE TYPES OF FORCE THAT YOU ALL FOCUSED ON.

>> WE ARE LOOKING AT DEATHS THAT DON’T INVOLVE SOMEONE BEING SHOT AND KILLED, DEATHS AFTER INTERACTIONS THAT INVOLVE AT LEAST A CERTAIN LEVEL OF FORCE JAN HANDCUFFS.

LESS LETHAL FORCE CAN BE A RANGE OF THINGS.

IT DOESN’T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE EXCESSIVE USE OF THESE THINGS LIKE A TASER, A BATON, IT CAN BE PHYSICAL FORCE, PUNCHING, TAKING SOMEONE DOWN, IT CAN BE WHEN THEY ARE DOWN, THEY ARE IN PRONE POSITION A KNEE ON THEIR BACK, FORCED SEDATION.

CRYSTAL: LOTS OF TYPES OF THIS SO-CALLED LESS LETHAL FORCE.

I’M ALSO THOUGHTFUL ABOUT THIS TOPIC OF EXCITED DELIRIUM WHICH ENDS UP BEING A VERY COMMON REASON POLICE OFFICERS EMPLOY WHEN THEY FIND THEMSELVES ON THE OTHERS OF THE LAW OR BEING QUESTIONED ABOUT THEIR USE OF FORCE.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT AND HOW PROLIFIC IT ENDS UP BEING IN THESE CASES.

SERGINHO: YES.

EXCITED DELIRIUM, AS WE WERE MAKING THE FILM AND ASKED VARIOUS EXPERTS, WHAT IS EXCITED DELIRIUM?

CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT?

THEY ALWAYS HAD SOMEWHAT OF DIFFICULTY TO EXPLAIN IT.

IN SHORT, IT’S A TERM USED TO DESCRIBE A POTENTIALLY LIFE-THREATENING STATE OF AGITATION.

SOMETIMES IT IS INDUCED BY DRUGS BUT BY NOW IT HAS BECOME WIDELY DISCREDITED BY THE MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT.

SO WHAT YOU HAD WITH EXCITED DELIRIUM IS WHITE OFTEN, MEDICAL EXAMINERS CITED THIS AS A CAUSE OF DEATH AFTER SOMEONE WAS SHOWING THE SIGNS AND EVENTUALLY DYING.

WHAT WE FOUND IN OUR INVESTIGATION AND WHAT OTHERS HAVE FOUND AS WELL IS THAT EXCITED DELIRIUM SEEMS TO BE SOMEWHAT EXCLUSIVELY USED ONLY AFTER SOMEONE DIED IN AN INTERACTION WITH POLICE OFFICERS.

SO IT IS WHAT SOME EXPERTS SAY, SHIFTING THE BLAME FROM THE POTENTIAL USE OF FORCE FROM THE OFFICERS TO THE VICTIM.

IT IS THEIR FAULT, THEY HAVE HAD SOMETHING GOING ON IN THEIR BODY, THEY GOT TO AGITATED IN THEIR BODY COULD NOT HANDLE IT AND THEREFORE THEY DIED.

BUT AS WE LOOK AT THE CASES IN THE DATABASE THAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER CITED EXCITED DELIRIUM, A CLOSER LOOK WITH EXPERTS REVEALED QUITE OFTEN THE USE FROM POLICE OFFICERS PLAYED A MUCH BIGGER ROLE THAN THE PERSONS MEDICAL STATE.

CRYSTAL: WE MENTIONED DRUGS.

ONE TACTIC OF LESS LETHAL FORCE IS SEDATION BY KETAMINE OF VERSE SAID.

THE RESEARCH SHOWED THAT ONE IN EVERY 10 PEOPLE IN THE DATABASE HAD BEEN SEDATED AND SHORTLY AFTERWARD, THEY SUFFERED CARDIAC ARREST OR RESPIRATORY ARREST AND DIED.

WE HAVE A PIECE OF SOUND FROM THE DOCUMENTARY HERE WHERE AN EMS EDUCATOR AND PARAMEDIC DISCUSSED HOW IT IS USED IN THE FIELD AND WHY HE HAS REAL CONCERNS HERE.

>> I THINK KETAMINE USED PROPERLY IS A VERY SAFE AND EFFECTIVE DRUG.

I THINK THAT THE WAY WE ROLLED IT OUT TO THE EMS COMMUNITY WITHOUT PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF THE RISK INVOLVED AND HOW TO MITIGATE THOSE RISKS CREATED THE RISKS OF HARM.

>> AMONG THOSE RISKS ARE HOW THE SEDATIVES CAN INTERACT WITH DRUGS OR ALCOHOL ALREADY IN SOMEONE’S SYSTEM AND HOW THEY CAN FURTHER RESTRICT READING OF SOMEONE ALREADY BEING RESTRAINED AND IN DISTRESS.

>> THERE WAS A FAIR NUMBER OF TIMES WHERE INDIVIDUALS WERE CHEMICALLY SEDATED AND WITH THE UNDERSTANDING WE NOW HAVE, WE WOULD ELECT NOT TO PERFORM CHEMICAL SEDATION.

CRYSTAL: TALK TO ME MORE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR LESS LETHAL USE HERE.

SERGINHO: WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT EXCITED DELIRIUM.

THE MEDICAL COLLEGE OF EMERGENCY PHYSICIANS SAID YES, ACTUALLY, EXCITED DELIRIUM IS A REAL CONDITION AND ONE OF THE WAYS TO TREAT IT IS SEDATING PEOPLE OUT IN THE FIELD.

SO IT IS NOT POLICE WHO ARE SEDATING PEOPLE, BUT THE PARAMEDICS ARE DOING THAT.

PARAMEDICS STARTED USING SEDATION IN THE FIELD AND ACCORDING TO EXPERTS, QUITE OFTEN IT WORKS FINE, SOMEONE COMES DOWN, OR KIND OF FALLS ASLEEP AND GOES TO THE HOSPITAL AND IS ABLE TO GET HELP, BUT WHEN PARAMEDICS ARRIVE OR POLICE OFFICERS ARRIVE ON A CHAOTIC SCENE, THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND OF MEDICAL CONDITION THIS PERSON MIGHT HAVE, WHAT KIND OF DRUGS OR ALCOHOL THEY HAVE IN THEIR SYSTEM.

THEY TRY TO CONTROL THE SITUATION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND SEDATE A PERSON NOT KNOWING WHAT OTHER INTERACTIONS THE SEDATION MIGHT HAVE AND A PERSON ENDS UP LOSING CONSCIOUSNESS AND EVENTUALLY DYING.

CRYSTAL: I’M ALSO THOUGHTFUL OF, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN TO YOU PERSONALLY?

I KNOW I ALWAYS FELT EMOTIONAL WATCHING THIS AS WELL.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU PERSONALLY TO HAVE PUT TOGETHER THIS FILM AND DIRECTED THIS DOCUMENTARY, AND WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE CLEAR CALL TO ACTION HERE?

SERGINHO: YES.

SO A LOT OF THE THINGS IN THIS DOCUMENTARY, A LOT OF THE TOPICS WE UNCOVERED WERE ALSO PRETTY NEW TO ME.

I DID NOT KNOW IN SOME OF THESE INTERACTIONS, PEOPLE WERE SEDATED, FOR EXAMPLE.

I HAD HEARD OBVIOUSLY OF GEORGE FLOYD’S LAST WORDS, "I CAN’T BREATHE," AND ERIC GARDNER BEFORE HIM.

THERE MAY BE ANOTHER CASE AS WELL.

THE INVESTIGATION YIELDED SO MUCH BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE THAT YOU CAN PUT ALTOGETHER AND START SEEING PATTERNS.

ONE OF THE PATTERNS THAT SURPRISED ME WAS THE AMOUNT OF TIMES PEOPLE SAID I CAN’T BREATHE.

THIS WAS AT LEAST CAPTURED.

WE DON’T KNOW IF IT WAS SAID EVEN MORE TIMES BY PEOPLE WHERE IT WAS NOT CAPTURED BY BODY CAMERA OR NOT WRITTEN DOWN BY POLICE OFFICERS THE REPORT AFTERWARD.

THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.

THE ONE THING THAT I DO FEEL LIKE IS KIND OF A CALL TO ACTION IS THAT PEOPLE DON’T SEE IT NECESSARILY AS AN ANTI-POLICE FILM, NOT A FILM TO CRITICIZE POLICE, BUT IT IS A FILM BY -- ABOUT HUMAN INTERACTIONS AND HUMAN INTERACTIONS GONE WRONG.

THERE MIGHT BE A LOT OF LESSONS HERE WE CAN ALL LEARN LIKE HOW DO WE DEAL WITH PEOPLE DEALING WITH THE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS OUT ON THE STREET, TO HOW DO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS DEAL WITH SOMEONE ONCE THEY HANDCUFF THEM AND SHOULD THEY ROLL THEM OVER IMMEDIATELY?

HOW IS IT THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS SENT OUT THERE SINCE THE 1990’S HAS NOT PERMEATED TO ALL POLICE DEPARTMENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY?

A WAY THAT POLICE OFFICERS APPROACH THESE TECHNIQUES UNIFORMLY ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

CRYSTAL: SERGINHO ROOSBLAD, THANK YOU SO MUCH, I APPRECIATE IT.

YOU CAN WATCH DOCUMENTING POLICE USE OF FORCE RIGHT HERE ON CHANNEL TWO, ON THE PBS APP, OR ONLINE AT PBS.ORG/FRONTLINE.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT MIGRATION IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE TEND TO FOCUS ON PEOPLE MOVING HERE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

BUT MASSACHUSETTS HAS SEEN MORE AND MORE OUTWARD MIGRATION.

THAT’S ACCORDING TO A RECENT BOSTON INDICATORS REPORT.

WHO IS MASSACHUSETTS LOSING, AND WHY ARE THEY LEAVING?

I’M JOINED BYONE FORMER MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENT WHO LEFT THE STATE LAST MONTH, NEIL WHITTEREDGE, ALONG WITH THE AUTHOR OF THE REPORT OF THE BOSTON INDICATORS RESEARCH ASSOCIATE.

PETER CIURCZAK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

I WILL START WITH YOU, PETER.

WHAT DO WE SEE AS SOME MAIN REASONS WHY PEOPLE ARE LEAVING?

PETER: SURE.

PEOPLE LEAVE FOR MANY DIFFERENT REASONS.

FOR WORK, TO START A FAMILY, AND OTHER REASONS.

ONE OF THE REASONS WE SEE FOR MASSACHUSETTS AND GREATER BOSTON IS HOUSING COSTS.

HOUSING COST IS MUCH HIGHER IN MASSACHUSETTS THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER STATE IN THE COUNTRY, ONLY BEATEN AT THE MEDIUM BY CALIFORNIA AND HAWAII.

THAT IS A BIG REASON.

WE SEE PEOPLE MOVING FOR WORK, TRYING TO FIND OPPORTUNITIES IN DIFFERENT SECTORS THAT ARE AVAILABLE ELSEWHERE BUT MAY NOT HAVE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES HERE.

HOUSING IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THE BIGGER ONES.

CRYSTAL: NEAL, IS THAT YOUR NUMBER ONE FOR WHY YOU MOVED?

NEIL: YES, DEFINITELY.

MY PARTNER AND I ACTUALLY TRIED TO MOVE WITHIN MASSACHUSETTS AT FIRST TO FIND MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING, AND THEN WE SIMPLY FIGURED IT MIGHT BE BEST FOR US TO SEARCH FURTHER OUT WHERE THINGS ARE MORE AFFORDABLE.

CRYSTAL: PETER, I IMAGINE IT IS ALSO A CERTAIN AGE RANGE THAT IS ABLE TO BE MOBILE, AND ALSO THE FACT THAT SO MANY JOBS ARE HYBRID OR REMOTE.

PETER: WHAT WE’VE SEEN IN THE DATA IS THAT OUR LARGEST OUTGROUP WHEN YOU LOOK BY AGE IS 25 TO 44-YEAR-OLDS, PROBABLY LIKE YOURSELF, LIKE MYSELF, EITHER RECENT GRADUATES, PEOPLE LOOKING TO START FAMILIES, LOOKING FOR WORK.

A LOT OF THEM ARE MORE MOBILE, MORE RENTERS.

IN MASSACHUSETTS RIGHT NOW, ROUGHLY 44% OF PEOPLE UNDER 44 ARE RENTERS.

OLDER FOLKS, 73 PERCENT, OWN THEIR OWN HOMES.

WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR OWN HOME, A NEST EGG AND A MORTGAGE, IT’S HARDER TO PICK UP SHOP AND LEAVE.

CRYSTAL: WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS BEING A TREND SO IT IS AN INCREASE.

I IMAGINE, ARE WE AT THE HEIGHT OF THAT INCREASE?

PETER: WE WILL KNOW IN A YEAR I SUPPOSE.

IT’S HARD TO SAY.

CERTAINLY TOWARD THE PANDEMIC, WE SAW AN INCREASE IN PEOPLE LEAVING TO OTHER STATES LIKE NORTH CAROLINA OR TWO MORE AFFORDABLE PARTS OF MASSACHUSETTS.

WE HAVE SEEN MASSACHUSETTS AS BEEN A DOMESTIC OUTMIGRATION LEADER FOR A WHILE BUT THE ACCELERATION IS SOMETHING WE WILL KEEP WATCH OF.

CRYSTAL: THAT MEANS MASSACHUSETTS LEAVES OTHER PLACES IN TERMS OF FOLKS LEAVING?

PETER: WE DID NOT CHECK AS OPPOSED TO OTHER STATES, BUT WHAT WE HAVE BEEN OVER TIME, MASSACHUSETTS HAS BEEN LOSING MORE POPULATION THROUGH OUTMIGRATION AND DOMESTIC OUTMIGRATION THEN GAINING FROM IN MIGRATION FROM OTHER STATES.

YOU DON’T SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING FROM NORTH CAROLINA TO MASSACHUSETTS, SAY.

NOT TO THE SAME EXTENT YOU SEE PEOPLE LOSING -- LEAVING THE STATE.

CRYSTAL: NEIL, I WANT TO ASK YOU, DID YOU THINK ABOUT ANY OTHER SORT OF CONSEQUENCE OR BENEFIT TO MOVING OTHER THAN COST?

DID YOU THINK, IF WE ARE MOVING HERE, IT IS LESS EXPENSIVE, BUT MAYBE YOU WILL HAVE FEWER OPTIONS FOR RESTAURANT, OR IF YOU ARE REALLY CIVIC REMINDED, THE POLITICAL CLIMATE MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU AGREE WITH?

NEIL: YES, DEFINITELY OF CONCERN.

WHAT I CAN SAY RIGHT NOW IS IT FEELS LIKE HEALTH CARE IS A BIT LESS ACCESSIBLE HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA AND THAT COULD JUST BE ME NOT KNOWING THE LAY OF THE LAND.

POLITICS WAS OF CONCERN, ESPECIALLY SOME OF THE STATE RACES HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

SO FAR THOUGH, I WOULD SAY SIMPLY IN TERMS OF QUALITY OF LIFE, OR DAY-TO-DAY LIVING AT THE MOMENT, IT IS EARLY, BUT WE FEEL PRETTY GOOD RIGHT NOW.

CRYSTAL: TELL ME ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHEN YOU LIVED IN THE GREATER BOSTON AREA VERSUS WHERE YOU ARE NOW?

NEIL: MY PARTNER AND I, WE BOTH WORK TWO JOBS AND DID NOT HAVE MUCH SPACE FOR ENJOYING EACH OTHER’S COMPANY OUTSIDE OF THE HOME.

WITH STUDENT LOANS, WITH EVERYTHING THAT WE HAD TO CONSIDER COST WISE, IF WE WANTED TO START A FAMILY, IF WE WANTED TO OWN A HOME, THE WAY MORTGAGE RATES AND EVERYTHING ARE IN THE CITY AND STATE, IT SEEMS REALLY DIFFICULT TO HAVE AN ENJOYABLE LIFE.

CRYSTAL: YOU DEFINITELY HAVE LESS MONEY TO DO THINGS.

WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE INCOME THAT FOLKS ACTUALLY EARN THAT ARE MOVING OUT OF STATE.

WE HAVE A COUPLE OF GRAPHS HERE SHOWING MORE MIDDLE AND HIGH INCOME RESIDENTS ARE LEAVING RATHER THAN LOW INCOME.

IS THAT JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO MOVE?

PETER: WE WOULD HAVE TO ASK THEM, I THINK, BUT IT DOES HELP TO HAVE THE RESOURCES TO ACTUALLY INVEST IN A JOB SEARCH OR A JOB SEARCH ELSEWHERE, OR IF YOU HAVE GOTTEN ONE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO WORK REMOTELY, THAT HELPS.

OFTEN HOUSING REMAINS THE BIG CRUNCH HERE.

IF YOU CAN’T FIND A HOME, EITHER WHEN YOU HAVE A MIDDLE INCOME OR HIGH INCOME AND THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST IN MASSACHUSETTS, THAT IS CASE ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO NEW BUILDS, YOU REALLY DO HAVE TO EXPAND YOUR SEARCH IN ORDER TO FIND AN OPPORTUNITY TO SET UP ROOTS AND SET UP A FAMILY IF YOU ARE SO INCLINED.

WE SEE A DIVERSIONS ESPECIALLY IN 2019 IN LOW INCOME POPULATIONS AS WELL.

WE DON’T HAVE SURVEY DATA TO TELL US WHY PEOPLE MIGHT BE STAYING HERE, BUT ONE THING WE DO KNOW IS THE URBAN INSTITUTE IN D.C. FOUND MASSACHUSETTS SPENDS A GOOD DEAL ON SOCIAL SUPPORTS AND OTHER THINGS OF THAT NATURE WHICH REALLY DO MAKE LIVING HERE, ESPECIALLY AT A VERY LOW INCOME, A LITTLE MORE MANAGEABLE THAN OTHER STATES.

CRYSTAL: SO WHAT ENDS UP BEING SORT OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF ALL OF THIS?

YOU HAVE THIS POPULATION OF 25 TO 40, 44-YEAR-OLDS GONE.

THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE WORKFORCE.

PETER: ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES AT UMASS MENTIONED THIS IS OUR FUTURE WORKFORCE, PEOPLE WHO WILL BE GOING INTO THE WORKFORCE SUPPORTING OUR POPULATION AS IT GETS OLDER, THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

IF THEY ARE NOT HERE TO DO THOSE JOBS, THAT WILL HAVE RAMIFICATIONS DOWN THE LINE.

I’M NOT A WORKFORCE ECONOMIST OR LABOR ECONOMIST, BUT I CAN TELL YOU IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE STATE, IT WILL BE DIFFICULT TO PERFORM CARE WORK AND THOSE PERSON-TO-PERSON INTERACTIONS THAT A LOT OF THE OLDER CITIZENRY RELIES UPON.

CRYSTAL: I IMAGINE WHEN YOU SEE A REPORT LIKE THIS, THERE IS SOMETHING OF A CALL TO ACTION TO EITHER STATE LEGISLATORS OR EVEN FOLKS WHO BUILD HOMES IN TERMS OF HOW WE KEEP THIS, WHAT SEEMS TO BE A VITAL PART OF THE POPULATION HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS?

PETER: IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE REALLY WORKED ON, WE HAVE -- WE ARE NOT A POLICY THINK TANK.

BUT ANYTHING THAT CAN BRING DOWN THE COST OF HOUSING, THAT IS REALLY A GOOD PLACE TO START.

$612 IS THE MEDIAN PRICE OF A HOUSE IN MASSACHUSETTS IN 2022.

THERE ARE TWO STATES HIGHER IN COST THAN THAT.

CRYSTAL: THAT’S INCREDIBLE.

$612,000 AND.

OLDER FOLKS AS WELL, THAT AFFECTS THE HOUSING STOCK AS WELL.

PETER: AND THEY ARE FACING THE SAME PROBLEM AS YOUNGER BUYERS.

IF THEY WANT TO DOWNSIZE, THEY WANT TO DEAL WITH HIGHER MORTGAGE PRICES, HOW YOUR COST HOUSING, AND IN MANY CASES ON FIXED INCOMES.

THAT MAKES IT HARDER FOR EVERYONE.

CRYSTAL: AS YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR FUTURE, DO YOU THINK YOU WILL STAY IN NORTH CAROLINA, OR IS IT A PLACE TO PAY OFF YOUR SCHOOL LOANS AND ENJOY YOUR PARTNER A LITTLE BIT?

NEIL: I WOULD SAY IT IS TO BE DETERMINED FOR SURE.

RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS LIKE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY AT THE LEAST TO CATCH UP ON SOME THINGS LIKE STUDENT LOANS AND DEBT WE HAVE, MAY BE SAVED MONEY TO PURCHASE A HOME IN MASSACHUSETTS.

BUT IF THINGS CONTINUE, THEN WE WANT TO ANTICIPATED.

IT MAKES YOU THINK, WHERE IS THIS GOING TO END AND HOW WILL IT STOP?

IF I COULD, PEOPLE WHERE WE MOVED TO IN CHARLOTTE, ARE MOVING OUT AS WELL.

THERE IS SORT OF A RIPPLE EFFECT .

EVERYONE IS MOVING OUT FROM WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN LIVING THEIR ENTIRE LIVES TO HAVE A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE.

OF COURSE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE LEAST ARE SUFFERING THE MOST FROM ALL OF THIS.

IT’S VERY INTERESTING TO THINK WHERE THIS WILL ALL END UP.

CRYSTAL: THAT’S RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

THAT’S IT FOR TONIGHT.

COME RIGHT BACK HERE TOMORROW.

ONE MIGRANT SHARES HIS STRUGGLE FINDING WORK IN MASSACHUSETTS.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

I’M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

GOOD NIGHT.