>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE BISHOP OF WORCESTER IS THREATENING TO STRIP A LOCAL MIDDLE SCHOOL OF ITS CATHOLIC LABEL BECAUSE OF THE PRIDE AND BLACK LIVES MATTER FLAGS THEY'VE BEEN FLYING ON CAMPUS.

HIS CONCERN HE SAYS IS WITH THE SPIRITUAL AND MORAL FORMATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE, LEADING OTHERS TO ASK WHY HE'S STILL BLOCKING EFFORTS TO HOLD SEX ABUSERS IN THE CHURCH ACCOUNTABLE.

SURVIVOR ATTORNEY MITCHELL GARABEDIAN JOINS ME ON THAT.

THEN LATER, CULT EXPERT STEVEN HASSAN ON THE VIDEO HE POSTED OF GINNI THOMAS DISCUSSING HER PATH OUT OF A CULT IN THE '80S, AND WHY HE BELIEVES THAT PAST IS LINKED TO HER INVOLVEMENT WITH CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND ONE CULT IN PARTICULAR, WHAT HASSAN CALLED THE CULT OF TRUMP.

AND FINALLY, TWO OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE ALL INCLUSIVE BOSTON TOURISM AND SMALL BUSINESS CAMPAIGN, WHICH STARTED LAST SUMMER AND IS HEADING INTO YEAR TWO, IN AN EFFORT TO CONVINCE TOURISTS AND SHOPPERS THAT BOSTON IS MORE THAN JUST FANEUIL HALL, BUT A CITY OF MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE AND PLACES TO VISIT.

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: FOR MORE THAN A YEAR, THE NATIVITY SCHOOL OF WORCESTER HAS, AT THE REQUEST OF STUDENTS, FLOWN FLAGS IN SUPPORT OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT AND LGBTQ PRIDE.

ACCORDING TO THE SCHOOL, THEY "FLY TO REMIND OUR YOUNG MEN, THEIR FAMILIES AND NATIVITY WORCESTER STAFF THAT ALL ARE WELCOME HERE AND THAT THEY ARE VALUED AND SAFE IN THIS PLACE."

BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THE CATHOLIC BISHOP OF WORCESTER SEES IT, APPARENTLY.

AS WAS REPORTED IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE," BISHOP ROBERT MCMANUS IS DEMANDING THE SCHOOL TAKE DOWN THE FLAGS, OR LOSE THE RIGHT TO CALL ITSELF A CATHOLIC SCHOOL.

SERIOUSLY.

TO PUNISH THEM FOR FLYING FLAGS SHOWING SUPPORT FOR MARGINALIZED PEOPLE.

I SHOULD ALSO NOTE HERE THAT THE NATIVITY SCHOOL OF WORCESTER IS A TUITION-FREE SCHOOL FOR BOYS IN GRADES FIVE THROUGH EIGHT, ALMOST ALL OF WHOM ARE STUDENTS OF COLOR, FROM LOW-INCOME FAMILIES.

WE DID INVITE THE WORCESTER BISHOP TO JOIN US TONIGHT, AS WELL AS SOMEONE FROM THE SCHOOL.

BOTH DECLINED OUR OFFER.

WITH THE BISHOP'S OFFICE POINTING TO HIS STATEMENT THAT SAYS, IN PART: "AS THE BISHOP OF THIS DIOCESE, I MUST TEACH THAT IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT A CATHOLIC SCHOOL USE IMAGERY AND SYMBOLS WHICH ARE REFLECTIVE OF THAT SCHOOL'S VALUES AND PRINCIPLES SO AS TO BE CLEAR WITH YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING SPIRITUALLY AND MORALLY FORMED FOR THE FUTURE."

SO IS THE BISHOP'S RECORD HELPING YOUNG PEOPLE GROW?

I'M JOINED BY MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, WHO'S REPRESENTED THOUSANDS OF SURVIVORS OF SEXUAL ABUSE BY MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

>> Braude: LEADERSHIP, MITCHELL, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Braude: WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE BISHOP'S DIRECTIVE TO TAKE DOWN THE FLAGS?

>> IT IS A FAILURE OF MORAL AND SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP.

BISHOP MCMANUS HAS BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF REVICTIMIZING CLERGY INDIVIDUALS THROUGH THE YEARS.

HE REFUSES TO RELEASE NAMES OF THE PRIESTS, AND HE REFUSES TO RELEASE FILES THAT WOULD HELP VICTIMS HEAL.

SO THIS IS MORE OF THE SAME.

IT -- BISHOP MCMANUS' POSITION DOES NOT HELP ANYONE IN THIS SCHOOL FEEL SAFE OR VALUED.

IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE.

THEY FEEL UNSAFE AND THEY FEEL DEVALUED.

AND MY FIRST REACTION TO THE STORY WAS, I HOPE CHILDREN ARE NOT BEING SEXUALLY ABUSED THERE BECAUSE OF THE UGLY TRACK RECORD OF THE JESUIT AND DIOCESE OF WORCESTER OF SEXUALLY ABUSING CHILDREN AND COVERING IT UP.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET BACK TO BISHOP MCMANUS IN A SECOND, BUT TO PUT THIS IN CONTEXT, I ASSUME MOST VIEWERS KNOW THERE WAS A POPE WHO SAID, WHO AM I TO JUDGE ABOUT GAYS AND LESBIANS, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THE POPE, THE CARDINAL, THE U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS, HAVE ALL SUPPORTED BLACK LIVES MATTER, AM I RIGHT?

>> I BELIEVE YOU ARE.

BUT BISHOP MCMANUS IS TAKING A DIFFERENT ROOT.

HE IS TRYING TO CONDEMN THIS CHILDREN, CONDEMN MARGINALIZED INDIVIDUALS, AND HE IS DESTROYING THE MORALITY OF THE INDIVIDUALS, AND THE INDIVIDUAL SHOULD NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN, CONSIDERING THESE SENTIMENTS AND OPINIONS ARE COMING FROM A PERSON WHO AS ALLOWED THE ABUSE OF CHILDREN FOR DECADES AND COVERED IT UP.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU SAID HE REFUSED TO RELEASE THE LIST OF CLERGY, IS THERE ANY TOP-DOWN PRESSURE ON A DIOCESE THAT DECIDES TO BE AN OUTLIER ON SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

OR IS IT EVERY MAN FOR THEMSELVES?

>> JIM, IT IS ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

IT IS POLITICS WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

THE BISHOP MAY SAY ONE THING, AND THE POPE COULD SAY ANOTHER, BUT NO ONE IS TAKING ANY ACTION.

IT IS ALL A BUNCH OF WORDS.

APPARENTLY THEY THINK SOCIETY IS A BUNCH OF DUMMIES BECAUSE IT IS ALL A BUNCH OF WORDS.

IT IS NOT FOLLOWED UP BY ANY ACTION.

IF POPE FRANCIS REALLY MEANT WHAT HE SAID, HE WOULD BE ASKING BISHOP MCMANUS TO SAY THE CORRECT THINGS, AT LEAST SAY THE CORRECT THINGS, AND HE IS NOT EVEN DIDING EVEN DOING THAT.

AS A METROPOLITAN OF MASSACHUSETTS, CARDINAL O'MALLEY SHOULD BE INSTRUCTING BISHOP MCMANUS TO SUPPORT THOSE WHO ARE MARGINALIZED.

THEY'RE DOING JUST THE OPPOSITE.

>> Braude: THIS BISHOP MCMANUS, WITH REGARD TO THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE CASES, HAS DISPARAGED TRANSGENDER PEOPLE, WAS DRUNK DRIVING, LEFT THE SCENE OF THE ACCIDENT, SO HE HAS A FAIRLY CHECKERED HISTORY -- HAVE YOU HEARD OF THIS GUY, WILLIAMS REILLY, WHO RAN THE FOOD PANTRY IN THE ARCHDIOCESE?

>> YES.

HE, APPARENTLY, HAS NOT BEEN PROPERLY SUPERVISED, EITHER, WAS ALLOWED TO FREELY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WOMEN WHO WERE VULNERABLE, AND HE HAS DONE IT FOR QUITE A WHILE.

AND ONCE AGAIN, THERE IS A FAILURE OF MORAL AND SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND IN THE DIOCESE OF WORCESTER.

>> Braude: I'M ALMOST EMBARRASSED TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION -- THE REASON WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS IS TO, ONE, SHOW SUPPORT FOR THE BOYS, THE YOUNG MEN AT THE NATIVITY SCHOOL, AND THEIR LEADERSHIP, AND THEY WERE TOLD TO TAKE DOWN THE FLAGS, AND THEY CAME DOWN -- IT IS UNCLEAR WHO TOOK THEM DOWN -- AND THEY PUT THEM UP THE NEXT DAY.

SO CREDIT TO THAT LEADERSHIP FOR THE COURAGE THEY'RE SHOWING.

IT SEEMS TO ME EVERY DAY IS GROUNDHOG DAY FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, MITCHELL GARABEDIAN.

OR MAYBE IT IS A WACKA MOLE TYPE OF THING.

ONE THING GETS BETTER, AND THEN ANOTHER PLACE POPS UP.

>> IT REALLY DOESN'T GET BETTER, JIM.

THE CHANGE IS COMING FROM OUTSIDE OF THE PUBLIC.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS MADE AWARE THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING MONEY.

AND IF IT MEANS CHILDREN ARE GOING TO BE SEXUALLY ABUSED OR GROUPS ARE GOING TO BE MARGINALIZED, SO BE IT, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL MAKE MONEY.

BUT THE PUBLIC IS BEING MADE AWARE BECAUSE OF THE STRENGTH OF THE VICTIMS COMING FROM, AND THE MARGINALIZED COMING FORWARD, THAT CHILDREN AND INDIVIDUALS HAVE TO BE WATCHED WHEN THEY'RE IN THE CARING CUSTODY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OR INTERACTING WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

AND IF I CAN MAKE ONE MORE POINT -- >> Braude: YOU MAY.

>> -- I HAVE BEEN ASKED IF BISHOP MCMANUS WILL CHANGE HIS POSITION WITH REGARDS TO THE MARGINALIZED AT THE SCHOOL OR ANYWHERE.

AND MY BELIEF IS, FOLLOW THE MONEY.

IF THE FINANCE PEOPLE TELL BISHOP MCMANUS TO SIT BACK AND LET THOSE FLAGS FLY BECAUSE THE SCHOOL IS MAKING MONEY, THEN THOSE FLAGS WILL FLY.

NOW, THEY DON'T MAKE IT OFF THE TUITION, OBVIOUSLY, AT THIS SCHOOL, BUT THEY'LL MAKE IT FROM PUBLIC GRANTS, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GRANTS, PRIVATE GRANTS, STATE GRANTS.

SO IF THEY'LL JUST FOLLOW THE MONEY, THE CHURCH IS A BUSINESS.

IT IS ALL ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS.

IT IS NOT ABOUT SPIRITUALITY AND MORALITY, AND THE SAFETY OF THE CHILDREN AND THE MARGINALIZED.

>> Braude: WHAT IS YOUR CASE LOAD LIKE TODAY, MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, COMPARED TO WHAT IT WAS WHEN THIS ALL BROKE 20 YEARS AGO?

>> IT REALLY HASN'T CHANGED.

I HAVE CASES NATIONWIDE.

SURVIVORS ARE COMING, IN BOSTON, FOR INSTANCE, THEY'RE CONSTANTLY CONTACTING ME, STATING ONE OF TWO THINGS: THEY WERE EITHER SEXUALLY ABUSED BY A PRIEST THAT IS ON MY LIST OF CREDIBLY ACCUSED, OR THEY WERE SEXUALLY ABUSED BY A PRIEST THAT IS NOT ON MY LIST OF CREDIBLY ACCUSED.

AND SO THEY WANT TO COME FORWARD.

AND I'M STARTING TO SEE -- AND I MAY HAVE MENTIONED THIS BEFORE -- I'M STARTING TO SEE THE VICTIMS OF SURVIVORS FROM THE '90s COMING FORWARD NOW BECAUSE THEY'RE OLD ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO REPORT THE SEXUAL ABUSE.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING, WE INVITED BISHOP MCMANUS HERE.

WE GOT A STATEMENT.

HE DID NOT HAVE THE COURAGE TO COME AND ANSWER QUESTIONS.

MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AS ALWAYS.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

JIM.

NEXT UP, LONG BEFORE VIRGINIA "GINNI" THOMAS BECAME THE CENTER OF CONTROVERSY OVER WHETHER HER EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION POSE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST FOR HER HUSBAND, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE CLARENCE THOMAS, SHE WAS A MEMBER OF A GROUP CALLED LIFESPRING, WHICH BILLED ITSELF AS A SELF-HELP PROGRAM, BUT WHICH SHE LATER SAID WAS MORE LIKE A CULT.

IT'S AN EXPERIENCE SHE REFLECTED ON WITH OTHER FORMER LIFESPRING MEMBERS IN A RESURFACED VIDEO FROM 1986.

STILL, IT IS A REMARKABLE STATE OF AFFAIRS THAT NOT A SINGLE MEMBER OF THE G.O.P.

COULD FIND ENOUGH REASON OR INTEGRITY TO SUPPORT AS QUALIFIED A JUDGE AS JUDGE JACKSON IS.

LONG BEFORE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE VIRGINIA GINNI THOMAS BECAME THE CENTER OF CONTROVERSY, OVER WHETHER HER LETTER POSED A PROBLEM FOR HER HUSBAND, SHE WAS A MEMBER OF LIFESPRING, WHICH SHE LATER SAID WAS MORE LIKE A CULT, AN EXPERIENCE SHE REFLECTED ON WITH OTHER FORMER LIFESPRING MEMBERS IN A RESURFACED VIDEO FROM 1986.

>> YOU HAVE TO FIND A BALANCE IN YOUR LIFE AS FAR AS GETTING INVOLVED IN FIGHTING THE CULT OR EXPOSING IT.

AND AND, KIND OF, THE OTHER ANGLE IS GETTING A SENSE OF YOURSELF, AND WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU GET INTO THAT GROUP AND WHAT OPEN QUESTIONS ARE THERE THAT STILL NEED TO BE ANSWERED.

>> BRAUDE: THE VIDEO WAS POSTED TO TWITTER BY CULT EXPERT STEVEN HASSAN, A FORMER MEMBER OF THE "MOONIES" CULT, HIMSELF, WHO HOSTED THAT EVENT.

HE'S ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE 2019 BOOK ABOUT WHAT HE CONSIDERS ANOTHER CULT, THE CULT OF TRUMP.

HE'S ALSO AUTHORED SEVERAL OTHERS ON HOW TO FREE PEOPLE FROM CULTS AND HOSTS THE INFLUENCE CONTINUUM PODCAST.

STEVEN HASSAN JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: IT IS GOOD TO MEET YOU, STEVEN.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR COVERING THIS.

>> Braude: TELL ME MORE ABOUT LIFESPRING, BRIEFLY, IF YOU CAN.

>> ESSENTIALLY IT WAS A LARGE GROUP AWARENESS TRAINING.

PEOPLE WOULD BE PONYING UP MONEY TO GO TO A HOTEL BALLROOM WHERE EVERYTHING WAS MANIPULATED AND CONTROLLED.

PEOPLE WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT WOULD BE HAPPENING.

AND A LOT OF HYPNOTIC TECHNIQUES AND BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION TECHNIQUES TO BREAK DOWN PEOPLE'S EGOS AND TO BUILD THEM UP IN THE IMAGE OF THE CULT, TO BASICALLY GET THEM IN A MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING THING, WHERE THEY HAVE TO SIGN UP FOR THE NEXT COURSE, THE NEXT COURSE, THE NEXT COURSE FOR TRANSFORMATION.

>> Braude: HOW DID THOMAS GET OUT OF THE CULT?

>> MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT SHE HAD A DE-PROGRAMMING INTERVENTION, ONE OF THE PRINCIPLE PEOPLE WHO DID IT, HIS NAME WAS KEVIN GARVEY.

HE IS SINCE DECEASED.

AND BACK IN THE '80s, THE APPROACH WAS VERY MUCH PERSUASION AND GIVING CONTENT AND TRYING TO KIND OF SNAP THE PERSON OUT OF IT.

BUT GETTING SOMEONE TO THE POINT OF REALIZING THE GROUP IS BAD IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE, AS MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS, DUE TO HELP PEOPLE PROCESS AND DIGEST THE EXPERIENCE.

BUT I WANTED TO SHARE THIS VIDEO BECAUSE GINNI ACTUALLY WAS AN ACTIVIST IN WASHINGTON.

SHE SET UP CONGRESSIONAL BRIEFINGS TO CREATE CULT AWARENESS WEEK, TO HONOR THE 10th ANNIVERSARY OF JONES TOWN.

SHE ACTUALLY ASKED ME TO BE ON A PANEL, WHICH I DID FOR A CONGRESSIONAL BRIEFING.

AND SHE EVEN INTRODUCED ME TO JUDGE THOMAS AT A MEETING IN 1992.

THAT'S HOW PASSIONATE SHE WAS AT TEACHING PEOPLE ABOUT CUTS.

AND SO THE QUESTION I'M BEING ASKED IS HOW COULD SHE BE BELIEVING IN Q-ANON AND THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN?

AND MY ANSWER IS: THERE ARE A LOT OF VERY POWERFUL AUTHORITARIAN CULTS THAT MAKE UP THE CULT OF TRUMP.

AND MY GUESS -- IT'S ONLY AN INFORMED GUESS -- IS THAT MAYBE KEVIN GARVEY'S RIGHT-WING, TRADITIONALIST IDEOLOGY PLAYED A PIECE OF IT, BUT MAYBE SHE WAS JUST RADICALIZED BY SOMEBODY ELSE.

>> Braude: I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE MORE FROM THE VIDEO YOU RELEASED.

THIS IS 1986, AND HERE IS GINNI THOMAS AGAIN.

>> I WANT TO EXPOSE LIFESPRING, I WANT TO KEEP OTHER PEOPLE FROM GOING THROUGH THAT EXPERIENCE, BUT I ALSO DON'T WANT TO GO OVERBOARD IN THAT REGARD.

I STILL HAVE DO MANY QUESTIONS.

I STILL HAVE SO MANY THINGS THAT I WANT TO TALK TO ABOUT WITH OTHER PEOPLE, AND FIND PEOPLE WHO I BELIEVE AS I DO, AND ARE SEARCHING AS I DO, SO ALL THOSE THINGS THAT GOT ME TO LIFESPRING ARE STILL THERE.

>> Braude: SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT "GOT ME TO LIFESPRING ARE STILL WILL" SHE SAID IT HERSELF.

I WAS GOING TO USE THE WORD "RECIDIVISM."

HOW OFTEN IS IT THAT SOMEBODY WHO ESCAPES A CULT IS SUSCEPTIBLE TO BEING DRAWN IN BY ANOTHER?

>> RIGHT.

SO ONE THING SHE DESCRIBED, SPECIFIC TO CULTS, IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE, YOU'RE GIVEN IRRATIONAL FEARS THAT TERRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU LEAVE.

AND MEMBERS KEEP TRYING TO CONTACT YOU IN ORDER TO GET YOU BACK IN.

THAT WOULD BE RECIDIVISM.

IN HER CASE -- AND I'VE SEEN THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH PEOPLE WHO GET OUT OF THE CULT, BUT THEY DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

THEY HAVEN'T GONE BACK TO PROCESS THE LIES, THE HYPNOTIC PROCESSING, TO REALLY GET A FIRM HANDLE ON IT.

SO THAT THEY CAN BE CULT-PROOFED FOR THE FUTURE.

AND APPARENTLY THIS SEEMS TO BE THE CASE WITH GINNI.

>> Braude: WHY DO YOU CONSIDER TRUMP A CULT LEADER RATHER THAN JUST A DEMOGOGUE WHO UNDERSTANDS POPULISM?

>> SO WHEN I WAS ASKED BY SIMON & SCHUSTER TO DO THE CULT OF TRUMP, WHAT I STARTED WITH WAS THE KNOWLEDGE THAT DONALD TRUMP DISPLAYS THE STEREOTYPICAL PROFILE OF AN AUTHORITARIAN CULT LEADER, MAGLEADER, MAL MALIGNANT ENTITLEMENT, THEY THINK THEY'RE ABOVE THE LAW.

SO WHEN I STARTED THE BOOK, I KNEW HE HAD A CULT PERSONALITY, AND MAYBE HIS BUSINESS ENTERPRISES WERE.

I KNEW HE WAS DOING M.L.M.

GROUPS, WHICH WERE MIND CONTROL, THE WAY HE RAN THEM.

THEN AS I RESEARCHED THE BOOK, THERE WAS THE FAMILY THAT MICHAEL PENCE WAS RECRUITED INTO, OPUS DAY, ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT AUTHORITARIAN CULTIC GROUPS THAT COMPRISED THE CULT OF TRUMP THAT I BELIEVE GOT HIM IN POWER AND GOT THEIR BASE TO BE VOTING FOR FOR HIM AND POLITICKING FOR HIM.

>> Braude: YOU SAID A MINUTE AGO THE TECHNIQUE TO GET GINNI OUT OF LIFESPRING, DIDN'T MAKE HER PREPARED NOT TO DO IT AGAIN, AND YOU DESCRIBE HOW TO DO IT SO THEY WOULD BE PERMANENTLY.

IF GINNI SAID TO YOU, I LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SELLING, FOR LACK OF A BETTER EXPRESSION, I HAVE JOINED THE CULT OF TRUMP AND I WANT YOU TO GET ME OUT, STEVEN HASSAN, HOW WOULD YOU?

>> WELL, I HAVE A UNIQUE RELATIONSHIP WITH HER, EVEN THOUGH I HAVEN'T TALKED WITH HER SINCE 1992.

SHE USED TO LIKE ME AND RESPECT ME AND WANT MY KNOWLEDGE TO BE SHARED WITH -- >> Braude: I DON'T MEAN JUST YOU PERSONALLY, I MEAN THE TECHNIQUE.

AND I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE.

WHAT IS THE METHOD?

>> THE KEY THING IS, GI GINNI, LET'S KNOWLEDGE COMMUNIST CHINESE BRAINWASHING EXISTS, HERE IS MY BITE MODEL.

LET'S GO BACK IN TIME, WHEN DID YOU FIRST LIKE DONALD TRUMP?

BECAUSE MY UNDERSTANDING IS SHE WAS A TED CRUZ PERSON.

I WOULD BACK HER UP AND GET HOAR HER TO REALIZE, WHAT ARE THE THINGS GETTING HERE IN, AND THE THING IS YOU ASK A RESPECTFUL QUESTION AND WAITING FOR AN ANSWER.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS.

YOU'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT EVERYBODY WHO SUPPORTS DONALD TRUMP IS A CULT MEMBER -- >> NO.

>> Braude: YOU'RE SAYING SOME ARE, AND YOU BELIEVE SHE MAY BE?

>> NO, I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT.

I BELIEVE CULTS EXIST ON A CONTINUUM, BUT IF YOU ARE BLINDLY BELIEVING ANY INFORMATION IS SATANIC, THEN YOU'RE IN AN UNDO INFLUENCE SITUATION.

>> Braude: GINNI THOMAS FIRST AND A FEW MILLION MORE AFTER HER.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, I APPRECIATE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

TWO-PLUS YEARS INTO THE PANDEMIC, BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WU ANNOUNCED A NEW PHASE OF AN INITIATIVE THAT MAYOR KIM JANEY STARTED LAST YEAR, CALLED ALL INCLUSIVE BOSTON.

THE GOAL?

>> WE ARE TRYING TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO GET FOLKS BACK INTO OUR CITY.

THERE IS SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE IN OUR CITY AND WE WANT ALL OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND COMMUNITIES TO NOT ONLY BE WELCOMING BUT CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER AS WELL.

>> BRAUDE: TO THAT END, PHASE TWO OF THE CAMPAIGN IS NAMED AFTER SOMETHING THE CITY IS PRETTY WELL-KNOWN FOR: "BOSTON ACCENTS," BUT WITH A TWIST, AS THEIR AD HIGHLIGHTS: >> THIS IS MY BOSTON ACCENT.

>> YOU HEAR THAT THIS IS MY BOSTON ACCENT.

>> THIS IS MY BOSTON ACCENT.

>> YEAH IT IS.

>> SHH!

THIS IS MY BOSTON ACCENT.

>> BRAUDE: A MILLION AND A-HALF DOLLARS WILL GO TOWARD MARKETING LIKE THAT, AND OTHER WAYS TO GET THE WORD OUT THAT BOSTON HAS A LOT MORE TO IT THAN MANY MAY THINK.

THAT'S ON TOP OF THE TWO AND A-HALF MILLION DOLLARS POURED INTO THE CAMPAIGN LAST SUMMER, AIMED AT DRIVING TRAFFIC TO LOCAL BUSINESSES.

I'M JOINED BY COLETTE PHILLIPS, PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF COLETTE PHILLIPS COMMUNICATIONS, WHO'S HEADING UP THE CAMPAIGN WITH MAYOR WU'S OFFICE.

WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY MARTHA SHERIDAN, PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE GREATER BOSTON CONVENTION AND VISITORS BUREAU.

>> Braude: COLETTE, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

MARTHA, GOOD TO MEET YOU.

>> THANK YOU, IT IS NICE TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: COLETTA, CAN YOU EXPAND ON WHAT THE MAYOR SAID.

WHO IS THE TARGET OF THE CAMPAIGN?

>> WELL, THERE ARE MULTIPLE TARGETS, REALLY.

WE WANT TO EXPAND -- AND MARTHA WILL TALK MORE ABOUT THIS -- THE VISITOR DEMOGRAPHICS.

WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE MORE DIVERSE PEOPLE TO COME HERE TO BOSTON.

AND WE ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE SPOTLIGHTING AND AMPLIFYING THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THE CULTURE, THE CUISINE, THE TASTE, THE SOUND, ALL THAT TRULY MAKES BOSTON A VIBRANT, DIVERSE, INCLUSIVE CITY.

>> Braude: SO, MARTHA, COLETTE SAID YOU WOULD EXPAND AND WHAT SHE JUST SAID, SO EXPAND AWAY.

>> SO BEFORE WE LAUNCHED THE FIRST ITERATION OF THIS CAMPAIGN, OUR AGENCY DIDN'T HAVE QUITE A LOT OF FUND, BUT WE WERE DOING SOME WORK AROUND AMPLIFYING THE BUSINESSES IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS.

THIS CAMPAIGN ALLOWED US TO REALLY, REALLY PUT THAT EFFORT ON STEROIDS AND REALLY SHOW WHAT IS DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE ABOUT BOSTON.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN BOSTON BEYOND FENWAY PARK TO FANEUIL HALL.

WHERE CAN PEOPLE GO TO LOOK FOR REALLY, TRULY, LOCAL EXPERIENCE, AND THIS CAMPAIGN ALLOWS US TO DO THAT.

WE ARE DEFINITELY TAKING PEOPLE OFF THE TRADITIONAL PATH AND BRINGING THEM INTO SOME OF BOSTON'S MOST UNIQUE AND CULTURALLY DIVERSE AREAS.

AS COLETTE SAID, IT IS TWO-FOLD.

IT IS ABOUT SHOWCASING THE DIVERSITY OF OUR CITY AND ATTRACTING A DIVERSE VISITOR TO BOSTON.

>> Braude: HERE IS A LITTLE EXCERPT FROM THE FIRST CAMPAIGN AD IN APRIL OF LAST YEAR.

>> WHATEVER YOU SEEK, WHOEVER YOU ARE, THERE IS A PLACE FOR YOU HERE.

OUR DOORS ARE OPEN.

OUR TABLES ARE SET.

THIS IS BOSTON.

AND WE ARE ALL-INCLUSIVE.

>> Braude: COLETTE, DO WE KNOW HOW YEAR ONE WENT?

DO WE KNOW IF IT WAS SUCCESSFUL OR NOT?

>> YEAR ONE WAS EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL.

>> Braude: HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

>> ON MULTIPLE LEVELS BECAUSE MARTHA ABLE WAS ABLE TO KEEP METRICS.

WE HAD MORE PEOPLE WHO VISITED BOSTON BECAUSE OF COVID AND THE PANDEMIC, AND THERE WERE MANY SMALL BUSINESSES THAT SAW AN UPTICK IN LIAR LIAR THEIR BUSINESSES, LIKE URBAN GREAT, WHO SAID THEIR BUSINESSES GREW, LIKE, 75% BECAUSE THEY WERE FEATURED IN THE CAMPAIGN.

>> Braude: GREAT COUPLE.

THEY'VE BEEN HERE MANY A TIME.

MARTHA, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHO THOSE ADDITIONAL PEOPLE ARE?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE, WHO THEY ARE, WHERE THEY ARE FROM?

>> WE KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THEM.

WE'VE GOT TRACKING DEVICES, SO TO SPEAK, ON EVERY AD.

BECAUSE WE PIXEL IT, SO WE CAN TRACE SOMEONE'S JOURNEY, FROM THE MOMENT THEY SEE AN AD AND CLICK ON IT TO THE MOMENT THEY HOPEFULLY BOOK A TRIP TO BOSTON.

WE DO KNOW AS A RESULT OF THE ADS AFFILIATED WITH THE FIRST ITERATION OF THIS CAMPAIGN, THOUSANDS OF FLIGHTS WERE BOOKED, AND THOUSANDS OF HOTEL ROOMS WERE BOOKED.

SO THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED.

MIND YOU, WE KNOW WE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER, BUT WE WERE IN THE MIDST OF THE PANDEMIC.

SO IT WAS DEFINITELY A ROLLER COASTER.

>> Braude: MARTHA, MY QUESTION -- I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE PRECISE -- DO WE KNOW THERE IS A MORE DIVERSE SET OF PEOPLE VISITING THE CITY THAN PRIOR TO THE CAMPAIGN?

>> THAT WE DON'T KNOW BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T DONE OUR FOLLOW-UP SURVEY.

>> Braude: COLETTE, HOW HARD A NUT IS THIS TO CRACK?

WE ALL KNOW THAT HORRIBLE SURVEY IN 2017, OF BLACK AMERICA, WHICH WAS THE LEAST WELCOMING, AND WE WON IN A LANDSLIDE.

"WON" IS A POOR CHOICE OF WORDS.

HOW HARD IS THAT TO OVERCOME WITH AN AD CAMPAIGN.

WE DO HAVE NEW LEADERSHIP, BUT HOW HARD IS THAT TO OVERCOME?

>> I BELIEVE WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, THIS CAMPAIGN IS NOT JUST FOR PEOPLE COMING TO BOSTON, BUT FOR THOSE OF US WHO LIVE HERE IN BOSTON.

I CAME TO THIS CITY AS A STUDENT AT AGE 17 AND GRADUATED, LEFT, AND CAME BACK.

AND I STAYED BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING VERY SPECIAL ABOUT THIS CITY.

AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE COLOR, WHO LIVE AND STAY HERE, FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

AND NOW WE WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO SEE THE BOSTON THAT WE KNOW AND SEE.

>> Braude: MARTHA, I WANT TO SHOW YOU A HEADLINE FROM THE NEW YORK "NEW YORK TIMES," "ONCE A HUB OF STRIKE, BOSTON WOOS BLACK TOURISTS."

DO YOU KNOW WHAT YEAR THAT STORY WAS IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES"?

TIME'S UP.

2006.

16 YEARS AGO THIS EFFORT WAS MADE.

QUICKLY, IF YOU CAN, MARTHA, HOW HARD IS IT TO OVERCOME ALL OF THE TRADITIONAL ATTITUDES ABOUT BOSTON AMONGST PEOPLE OF COLOR?

>> IT IS DIFFICULT.

I'M NOT GOING TO LIE.

WE HEAR IT DAY IN AND DAY OUT, BUT I WILL TELL YOU, WHEN I SOCIALIZED THIS CAMPAIGN ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITH MY COUNTERPARTS AND MY COLLEAGUES, THEY'RE ALL OF VERY DIVERSE NATURE, AND THEY LOVE IT.

IT IS EYE-OPENING, AND IT DEFINITELY HAS STARTED TO SHIFT THE NARRATIVE.

>> Braude: SPEND THE LAST MINUTE, COLLECT, DESCRIBE YEAR TO, TWO, WE SHOWED THE DIVERSE ACCENTS FOR US, AND FILL IN THE BLANKS FOR US, IF YOU CAN.

>> THIS CAMPAIGN IS ABOUT DRIVING TOURISTS AND RESIDENTS ALIKE, OF THE COMMONWEALTH AND OF OUR CITY, FROM DOWNTOWN BOSTON TO OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, PARTICULARLY FOR UNDERVISITED AND UNDERREPRESENTED BUSINESSES.

AND TO SAY, BOSTON, YOU DON'T HAVE TO JUST DO THE SEAPORTS OR FANEUIL HALL.

YOU CAN GO TO ROSEMONDALE, AND REALLY ENJOY THE FOOD AND THE PEOPLE AND THE CULTURE, AND THE VIBRANCY OF THE UNIQUE DIVERSITY THAT ARE NOW BOSTON'S NEIGHBORHOODS.

>> Braude: COLETTE, I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS, AM I RIGHT LAST YEAR'S CONTRACT WAS THE LARGEST GIVEN TO A SINGLE WOMAN OF COLOR -- IS THAT TRUE?

>> IT WAS THE SINGLE LARGEST CONTRACT, NON-CROSS-EXAMINATION, THAT WAS GIVEN TO A MINORITY-OWNED COMPANY.

>> Braude: THAT WOULD BE YOU.

COLETTE, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

MARTHA, GREAT TO MEET YOU.

GOOD LUCK WITH THE CMPAIGN.

>> THANK YOU.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, HEAD TO BOSTONUSA.COM/ALL-INCLUSIVEBOS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org