♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE COULD HAVE ACTUALLY SAVED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

NOBODY WAS INTERESTED.

>> WE MARK 30 YEARS SINCE THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE.

THE WORLD WATCHED BUT DIDN'T ACT AS CLOSE TO A MILLION PEOPLE WERE BRUTALLY KILLED.

FROM MY ARCHIVE, MY CONVERSATION WITH A CANADIAN U.N.

COMMANDER WHO TRIED TO SCREAM BLOODY MURDER.

>>> AND -- >> IN MY HEART, THE DEAD ARE DEAD.

THEY CANNOT COME BACK AGAIN.

SO I HAVE TO JOIN MYSELF WITH THE OTHERS AND FORGET WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

>> HOW RWANDA REBUILT THROUGH CONSTITUTIONAL RECONCILIATION.

>> I DID NOT KNOW THE MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF IT FOR ME WAS TO KNOW THAT THEY WERE HUMAN BEINGS.

>> Reporter: THE REAL-LIFE HERO FROM "HOTEL RWANDA," PAUL RUSESABAGINA RECOUNTS THE INCREDIBLE STORY OF SAVING MORE THAN A THOUSAND LIVES.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, "THE EXVANGELICALS," LOVING, LIVING AND LEAVING THE WHITE EVANGELICAL CHURCH.

AUTHOR AND NPR CORRESPONDENT SARAH McCAMMON SHARES HER PERSONAL JOURNEY.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ALMOST ONE MILLION PEOPLE MURDERED IN JUST 100 DAYS.

IT SEEMS UNFATHOMABLE, BUT IT DID HAPPEN.

IN RWANDA IN 1994, MILITIAS AND CIVILIANS FROM THE COUNTRY'S MAJORITY ETHNIC GROUP, THE HUTUS, KILLED THEORY TUTSIS NEIGHBORS AND MODERATE HUTUS.

THAT GENOCIDE WAS 30 YEARS AGO.

SO TODAY WE TAKE A LOOK BACK AT THE TERRIBLE ATROCITIES COMMITTED, THE ABSENCE OF ANY INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION, AND THE LEGACY OF THAT MASSACRE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SENDING A DELEGATION TO KIGALI THIS WEEKEND LED BY FORMER PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON.

IN RWANDA, RECONCILIATION IS THE WORD, AS PRESIDENT PAUL KAGAME MAKES CLEAR ON EVERY ANNIVERSARY.

>> IN 1994, THERE WAS NO HOPE.

ONLY DARKNESS.

TODAY LIGHT, RADIANCE FROM THIS PLACE.

RWANDA BECAME A FAMILY ONCE AGAIN.

>> THAT INDEED IS THE HOPE, AND THAT LIGHT WAS VISIBLE WHEN I WENT BACK TO TALK TO SOME OF THOSE WHO HAVE MANAGED TO FIND FORGIVENESS.

BUT FIRST, IT REMINDS US OF THE INCREDIBLE DARKNESS WHICH PREVAILED IN 1994 AND ONE U.N.

COMMANDER'S DESPERATE, FUTILE ATTEMPT TO STOP IT.

AS YOU WOULD IMAGINE, SOME OF THIS REPORT IS REALLY DIFFICULT.

1993, THE AFRICAN NATION OF RWANDA.

GENERAL ROMEO DELAER WAS ABOUT TO TAKE UP THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMAND OF HIS CAREER, LEADING U.N.

TROOPS CHARGED WITH KEEPING THE PEACE.

DELAER IS CANADIAN, THE SON OF A SOLDIER, AND A MILITARY MAN WHO SAYS HIS FIRST LOVE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ARMY.

AND WHEN YOU WERE FIRST TOLD THAT YOU WERE GOING TO HEAD THE MISSION IN RWANDA, HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

>> AN OVERWHELMING EXCITEMENT.

>> ONE YEAR LATER, ROMEO DELAYER WOULD LEAVE RWANDA A BROKEN MAN, HIS MISSION A FAILURE, HAVING WATCHED HELPLESSLY AS MORE THAN 800,000 PEOPLE PERISHED IN GENOCIDE.

>> WE COULD HAVE ACTUALLY SAVED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

NOBODY WAS INTERESTED.

>> WHEN HE ARRIVED IN RWANDA, THE MISSION WAS TO MONITOR A PEACE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE HUTUS AND THE TUTSIS, TWO WARRING ETHNIC GROUPS WITH A LONG AND BLOODY RIVALRY, WHICH WAS NOW SIMMERING AGAIN.

THE AGREEMENT, WHICH CALLED FOR HUTUS AND TUTSIS TO SHARE POWER, WAS JUST A FACADE.

HUTU EXTREMISTS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT WERE STOCKPILING WEAPONS.

GENERAL DELAYER WAS DETERMINED TO KEEP THE PEACE, AND IT WAS PERSONAL FOR HIM.

HE HAD BEEN RAISED ON VIVID STORIES OF HEROIC CANADIAN SOLDIERS WHO BROUGHT HOPE TO EUROPE AFTER THE HOLOCAUST.

HIS OWN FATHER HIS ROLE MODEL, HAD BEEN ONE OF THOSE SOLDIERS.

GENERAL DELAYER WANTED TO HONOR THIS LEGACY.

WHAT RESOURCES DID YOU THINK YOU NEEDED?

>> I HAD ESTIMATED ABOUT 4500 TROOPS, AND I GOT AUTHORITY ULTIMATELY FOR 2600.

>> JUST 2600 TROOPS, AND NONE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

ITS TASTE FOR FOREIGN INTERVENTION HAD SOURED.

A FEW MONTHS EARLIER IN SOMALIA, TWO DOZEN PAKISTANI PEACEKEEPERS HAD BEEN MURDERED.

U.S.

COMMANDOS ON THE HUNT FOR THE KILLERS HAD THEIR BLACK HAWK HELICOPTER SHOT DOWN.

18 U.S.

SOLDIERS WERE KILLED.

KOFI ANNAN WAS THEN HEAD OF U.N. PEACEKEEPING OPERATIONS.

>> THE U.S.

TROOPS HAD BEEN KILLED AND DRAGGED THROUGH THE STREETS AND HUMILIATED.

>> AMERICANS WERE ANXIOUS TO EXTRICATE THEMSELVES FROM STRIFE IN AFRICA.

>> AND THE GOVERNMENTS WERE NOT PREPARED TO TAKE ANOTHER RISK.

AND GO INTO RWANDA.

>> IN JANUARY 1994, GENERAL DELAYER MADE A CHILLING DISCOVERY.

AN INFORMANT WARNED THAT HUTU GOVERNMENT AGENTS WERE PLANNING FOR BLOODSHED, NOT PEACE.

>> THEY WERE GOING TO CONDUCT AN OUTRIGHT SLAUGHTER AND ELIMINATION OF THE OPPOSITION.

>> DID HE TELL YOU THAT HE WAS BEING ORDERED TO PRACTICE, PREPARE, TRAIN FOR THIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> GENERAL DELAYER SENT THIS CABLE TO U.N. HEADQUARTERS IN NEW YORK, WARNING THAT HIS INFORMANT HAS BEEN ORDERED TO REGISTER ALL TUTSI IN KIGALI.

HE SUSPECTS IT IS FOR THEIR EXTERMINATION.

THE INFORMANT DESCRIBED A MAJOR WEAPONS CACHE WHICH GENERAL DELAYER INTENDED TO RAID.

"IT IS OUR INTENTION TO TAKE ACTION WITHIN THE NEXT 36 HOURS."

KOFI ANNAN CONCERNED ABOUT THE LIMITED FORCE SAID WE CANNOT AGREE TO THE OPERATION CONTEMPLATED AS IT CLEARLY GOES BEYOND THE MANDATE.

WHEN YOU GOT THIS RESPONSE BACK.

>> YES.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

>> I -- I -- I -- IT WAS -- IF A COMMANDER IS EVER TAKEN BY SURPRISE, I CERTAINLY WAS TAKEN BY SURPRISE.

>> DID YOU TRY TO CHANGE HIS MIND?

>> FIVE MORE FAXES OF THE SAME NATURE THROUGHOUT THE REST OF JANUARY INTO FEBRUARY, AND ULTIMATELY, I GOT AUTHORITY.

>> BUT IT WAS TOO LATE, BECAUSE HUTU EXTREMISTS WERE ABOUT TO BEGIN THEIR BRUTAL EXTERMINATION OF THE TUTSIS.

AND GENERAL DELAYER WOULD FACE A TEST.

STANDING UP NOT JUST TO THE KILLERS, BUT ALSO TO WORLD LEADERS WHO TURNED THEIR BACKS AS THE RIVERS RAN WITH BLOOD.

GENERAL ROMEO DELAYER, THE HEAD OF U.N.

FORCES IN RWANDA KNEW THE TROUBLE WAS COMING.

FOR MONTHS, THE U.N.

COMMANDER IN RWANDA HAD WARNED HIS BOSSES NO NEW YORK THAT HUTU EXTREMISTS WERE ARMING AND TRAINING MILITIAS.

THEN ON APRIL 6, 1994, THE PLANE CARRYING THE PRESIDENT OF RWANDA AND NEIGHBORS BURUNDI WAS SHOT DOWN, A DOUBLE ASSASSINATION.

THIS WAS THE MOMENT THE HUTU PLOTTERS HAD BEEN WAITING FOR.

THE DEATH OF THE PRESIDENT WAS THE START POINT?

>> YES.

>> THE SIGNAL.

A COLONEL, A HUTU EXTREMIST IMMEDIATELY DECLARED THE ARMY IN CHARGE.

WITHIN HOURS, GOVERNMENT TROOPS AND CIVILIAN DEATH SQUADS BEGAN SLAUGHTERING TUTSIS.

>> PEOPLE WERE LITERALLY SCREAMING ON THE PHONE, TELLING US THAT THE MILITIAS WERE AT THE DOOR.

WE COULD HEAR THE PEOPLE STILL ON THE PHONE AS THEY WERE BUSTING DOWN THE DOORS AND OPENING FIRE.

>> Translator: WE STARTED HEARING PEOPLE SCREAMING OUTSIDE.

EFUGENIA LIVED IN A HILLTOP VILLAGE WHEN THE GENOCIDE ERUPTED.

AND THEN WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER?

>> Translator: WHAT I REMEMBER IS THAT THEY KILLED PEOPLE.

THE WOMEN AND GIRLS WERE RAPED, AND WE SAW IT ALL.

THE MEN AND BOYS WERE BEATEN AND SLAUGHTERED.

>> AS THE MOB CAME CLOSE.

>> SHE AND HER HUSBAND AND HER CHILDREN SPLIT UP AND FLED.

THEIR HOME WAS DESTROYED.

THOSE INTEREST ROCKS FROM YOUR HOUSE.

AS EFUGENIA HID IN THE FOREST, HER NEIGHBORS, HUTUS SHE HAD LIVED WITH ALL OF HER LIFE, KILLED HER HUSBAND AND FIVE OF HER CHILDREN.

GOVERNMENT RADIO BROADCASTS ACTUALLY INCITED THE KILLERS, DEMONIZING THE TUTSIS, CALLING FOR THEIR EXTERMINATION.

>> "COCKROACHES."

IT WAS AN ECHO OF PAST GENOCIDE.

IN CAMBODIA, THE KHMER ROUGE CALLED THEIR VICTIMS WORMS.

IN GERMANY, TO THE NAZIS, JEWS WERE VERMIN.

IN RWANDA, RADIO BROADCASTS WENT EVEN FURTHER, PROVIDING GRAPHIC INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO KILL.

PILLING BABIES OUT OF THE MOTHER'S WOMB?

>> YEAH, LITERALLY.

HOW TO MAKE THEM SUFFER AND MUTILATE THEM.

♪♪ >> EFUGENIA EVENTUALLY FLED THE FOREST, AND LIKE SO MANY OTHERS SOUGHT REFUGE IN A CHURCH.

FOR HER THE CHURCH BROUGHT SAFETY.

BUT FOR SO MANY OTHERS, CHURCHES AND SCHOOLS BECAME THEIR DEATH TRAPS.

>> THEY'D SIMPLY THROW A COUPLE OF GRENADES IN AND LET THE MILITIA SLAUGHTER THEM ROW AFTER ROW AFTER ROW.

>> DELAYER AND HIS POWERLESS TROOPS COULD ONLY SAVE THE FEW PEOPLE THEY COULD REACH.

HIS TROOPS WERE THEMSELVES TARGETS.

10 WERE KILLED IN THE FIRST DAYS OF GENOCIDE.

HE WAS DESPERATE FOR HELP FROM U.N. HEADQUARTERS.

AND WERE YOU ON THE PHONE TO NEW YORK?

WERE YOU SCREAMING TO THEM?

>> I WAS WITH NEW YORK FAIRLY CONSTANTLY, SEVERAL TIMES A DAY IN THOSE TIMES, DOING NEGOTIATIONS, DISCUSSING WITH THEM THE SITUATION.

ARE REINFORCEMENTS COMING.

>> SIX DAYS INTO THE KILLING, SOME U.S. OFFICIALS BEGAN TO FEAR THE WORST.

THIS STATE DEPARTMENT MEMO WARNED OF A BLOODBATH.

BUT INSTEAD OF PROVIDING THE U.N. WITH REINFORCEMENTS, THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION JOINED A CHORUS OF WORLD LEADERS CALLING FOR A TOTAL U.N. WITHDRAWAL.

AFTER TWO WEEKS OF DEBATE, THE SECURITY COUNCIL VOTED INSTEAD TO LET GENERAL DELAYER KEEP JUST 10% OF HIS ALREADY STRETCHED FORCES.

>> PLEASE RAISE THE HAND.

>> IN ESSENCE, THEY VOTED TO ALLOW THE KILLERS TO CONTINUE.

>> AT THE TIME, PROFESSOR MICHAEL BARNETT WAS ON A FELLOWSHIP AT THE U.N., AND HE STUDIED ITS RESPONSE TO THE GENOCIDE.

>> THAT'S WHEN WE SEE A REAL SPIKE IN THE VIOLENCE.

BECAUSE AT THAT POINT, IT'S CLEAR TO THE RWANDANS THAT THERE WILL NOT BE ANY CAVALRY OVER THE HORIZON.

>> LIKE HITLER IN GERMANY AND SADDAM HUSSEIN IN IRAQ, THE KILLERS ACTED WITH IMPUNITY.

>> LET US RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS A FAILURE.

>> IN THE FOURTH WEEK OF THE KILLING, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL BOUTROS BOUTROS-GHALI ORDERED A TOTAL PULLOUT OF ALL U.N.

TROOPS FROM RWANDA.

GENERAL DELAYER REFUSED.

SO YOU WERE INSUBORDINATE?

>> WELL, INSUBORDINATE IS THE NICE WAY.

I REFUSED A LEGAL ORDER.

BUT IT WAS IMMORAL.

>> WITH SO FEW MEN, DELAYER WAS HELPLESS TO STOP THE KILLING.

IN THE FIRST FEW WEEKS ALONE, THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS ESTIMATED THE BODY COUNT WAS IN THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, INCLUDING PEOPLE WHO WERE SLAUGHTERED RIGHT HERE.

BUT THE UNITED STATES AND THE UNITED NATIONS REFUSED TO PUBLICLY CALL THIS CARNAGE WHAT IT WAS, GENOCIDE.

THE STATE DEPARTMENT WORRIED THAT ACKNOWLEDGING GENOCIDE WOULD COMMIT THE U.S. TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.

BECAUSE OF THE 1948 U.N. GENOCIDE CONVENTION, LEMKIN'S LAW.

SO OFFICIALS PLAYED WORD GAMES.

>> WE HAVE EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT ACTS OF GENOCIDE HAVE OCCURRED.

>> HOW MANY ACTS OF GENOCIDE DOES IT TAKE TO MAKE IT GENOCIDE?

>> ALLEN, THAT'S JUST NOT A QUESTION THAT I'M IN A POSITION TO ANSWER.

>> ANTHONY LAKE HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT TO THE DEBATE.

HE WAS PRESIDENT CLINTON'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER.

>> AND I THINK THAT WAS WRONG.

>> WHAT WAS WRONG?

>> NOT TO CALL IT GENOCIDE.

IT WAS GENOCIDE.

>> LAKE NOW ADMITS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE TO RWANDA WAS A FAILURE.

HE TOLD ME THAT PRESIDENT CLINTON'S CLOSEST ADVISERS DID DISCUSS HUMANITARIAN AID, BUT NOT WHETHER OR HOW TO STOP THE KILLING.

>> IT WAS A SIN OF OMISSION, OF NOT HAVING THAT SENIOR MEETING, OF SENIOR OFFICIALS NEVER SAYING, INCLUDING MYSELF, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT WHAT IS GOING ON, WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT.

>> WHILE THE U.S. AND THE U.N.

STOOD BY, THE REBEL TUTSI ARMY FOUGHT BACK AGAINST THE HUTU GOVERNMENT.

IN MID-JULY, 100 DAYS OF HELL CAME TO AN END WHEN TUTSI FORCES LED BY GENERAL PAUL KAGAME DECLARED VICTORY.

BUT BY THEN, MORE THAN 800,000 PEOPLE WERE DEAD.

TODAY, 14 YEARS LATER, KAGAME IS RWANDA'S PRESIDENT.

DID YOU EXPECT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO INTERVENE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THOUGHT THAT'S WHY THEY WERE HERE.

>> AND WHY DO YOU THINK THEY COULDN'T AND DIDN'T?

>> THEY DIDN'T CARE.

THEY WERE TOTALLY INDIFFERENT.

IT WAS JUST ANOTHER BLOODY AFRICAN SITUATION WHERE DESPERATE PEOPLE KILL EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S IT.

>> A MONTH AFTER THE TUTSIS DECLARED VICTORY, GENERAL ROMEO DELAYER ASKED TO BE RELIEVED OF HIS COMMAND.

>> WELL DONE, VERY WELL DONE, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[ APPLAUSE ] >> HE LEFT RWANDA A BITTER AND BROKEN MAN.

WHAT HAS LIFE BEEN LIKE FOR YOU SINCE?

>> A LOT OF PILLS, A LOT OF THERAPY.

A LOT OF -- A LOT OF TIMES NOT WANTING TO LIVE.

>> YOU DID PRETTY MUCH ALL THAT WAS HUMANELY POSSIBLE TO SCREAM BLOODY MURDER AND TO RAISE THE ALARM.

>> NOT ENOUGH.

I DON'T THINK SO.

>> RWANDA, WHERE MORE THAN 800,000 PEOPLE WERE SLAUGHTERED IN JUST 100 DAYS.

I WAS THERE DURING THE GENOCIDE, AND AGAIN IN NOVEMBER 1996.

>> THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CROSSING NOW IS ABOUT 15,000 PEOPLE PER HOUR.

>> I WITNESSED AN INCREDIBLE MASS MIGRATION OF RETURNING REFUGEES.

BUT WHAT WERE THEY COMING HOME TO?

♪♪ TODAY, THIS SIMPLE ENTERPRISE REPRESENTS RWANDA'S REMARKABLE ACT OF HEALING.

HUTUS AND TUTSIS SIT SIDE BY SIDE, WEAVING PEACE BASKETS SOLD AT MACY'S DEPARTMENT STORES.

ONCE DEADLY ENEMIES ARE NOW BUSINESS PARTNERS.

AND FRIENDS.

EFUGENIA IS A TUTSI, A MASTER WEAVER, SHE TRAINED HER HUTU NEIGHBOR.

HOW DO YOU MANAGE TO RECONCILE?

HAS THERE BEEN A PROCESS THAT HELPED YOU WITH RECONCILIATION?

>> Translator: I AM A CHRISTIAN, AND I LIKE TO PRAY.

♪♪ >> RWANDA HAS MADE RECONCILIATION A CENTERPIECE OF ITS RECOVERY.

WITH CLUBS AND RE-EDUCATION CAMPS.

I MET EFUGENIA ON A BEAUTIFUL SUNDAY MORNING IN CHURCH.

♪♪ AFTER MASS, SHE INVITED ME HOME.

THERE IN HER UNADORNED HILLTOP HOUSE, NO ELECTRICITY AND NO RUNNING WATER, I SAW SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY.

EFUGENIA WAS PREPARING A PLATE OF FOOD AND SERVING IT TO JOHN BOSCO BISIMANA, ONE OF THE MEN WHO MURDERED ONE OF HER FIVE CHILDREN.

IT'S AMAZING FOR US TO SIT HERE AND SHARE FOOD WITH FAMILIES WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH.

JEAN BOSCO IS MARRIED TO EFUGENIA'S BASKET WEAVING PARTNER.

AND AFTER SEVEN YEARS IN PRISON, HE RETURNED TO FACE THE WOMAN HE HAD ALL BUT DESTROYED.

AND WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HER?

YOU LOOKED HER IN THE EYE, AND WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HER?

>> Translator: THE FIRST TIME WE SPOKE, WE DISCUSSED THE HORRIBLE THINGS WE DID TO THEM, WITHOUT HOLDING ANYTHING BACK.

>> AND DID YOU EXPECT EFUGENIA TO FORGIVE YOU AND GIVE YOU MERCY?

>> I FELT THAT THEY WOULD FORGIVE ME.

>> JUSTICE IS A VITAL PART OF RWANDA'S RECONCILIATION PROCESS.

IN VILLAGES AROUND THE COUNTRY, TRADITIONAL COMMUNITY TRIALS CALLED GACHACHAS HELP THE VICTIMS CONFRONT THE KILLERS IN FRONT OF ALL OF THEIR NEIGHBORS.

JEAN BOSCO, DID YOU GO TO THE GACHACHA COURT?

>> YES, IN FRONT OF EVERYONE, I OPENLY SAID WHAT I DID.

I TOLD MY BROTHERS AND ASKED FOR FORGIVENESS.

>> HOW DID YOU FIND IT IN YOUR HEART TO FORGIVE?

>> Translator: IN MY HEART, THE DEAD ARE DEAD.

THEY CANNOT COME BACK AGAIN.

SO I HAVE TO JOIN MYSELF WITH THE OTHERS AND FORGET WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

>> IT IS REMARKABLE FORTITUDE.

AND AS WELL AS THOSE LOCAL COURTS THAT WE JUST SAW, THERE WERE, OF COURSE, THE RING LEADERS ARRESTED, TRIED AND CONVICTED AT SOME OF THE GLOBAL INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES TRIBUNALS.

NOW AMIDST THE WORST OF HUMANITY IN RWANDA, THERE WERE ALSO OF COURSE STORIES OF HOPE, HEROISM, AND RESISTANCE, LIKE THAT OF PAUL RUSESABAGINA WHO MANAGED TO SAVE THOUSANDS OF LIVES BY SHELTERING THOSE WHO WERE TRYING TO FLEE THE VIOLENCE.

HIS STORY WAS IMMORTALIZED IN THE FILM "HOTEL RWANDA."

HE WAS RUNNING THE HOTEL THAT HE USED AS A SHELTER.

SINCE THEN, HIS LIFE HAS TAKEN SOME TURNS HEALTHCHECK WAS FOUND GUILTY ON TERRORISM CHARGES IN 1991.

A VERDICT THE CLOONEY FOUNDATION FOR JUSTICE SHOWED A, QUOTE, SHOW TRIAL.

BUT HE WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON LAST YEAR AFTER HIS SENTENCE WAS COMMUTED BY THE RWANDAN PRESIDENT PAUL KAGAME, WHO RUSESABAGINA HAS HEAVILY CRITICIZED.

I ASKED HIM TO REFLECT ON SUCH DARK TIMES WHEN HE JOINED ME FOR THIS CONVERSATION FROM TEXAS, WHERE HE NOW LIVES.

PAUL RUSESABAGINA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU BECAME A HERO, OBVIOUSLY WITH THE FILM "HOTEL RWANDA."

BUT TO THOSE WHO YOU SAVED IN THE HOTEL MIL COLLEEN, CAN YOU REMIND US WHAT YOU DID 30 YEARS AGO DURING THE GENOCIDE?

>> IN 1994, I WAS THE GENERAL MANAGER OF THE MILLE COLLEEN HOTEL.

AND THE SCENES APRIL 6, 1994, WE STARTED HAVING REFUGEES, ABOUT 1,268 PEOPLE HAPPENED TO BE SAVED IN THE HOTEL WHERE I WAS A GENERAL MANAGER.

NONE OF THEM WAS TAKEN OUT.

NONE OF THEM WAS KILLED.

NONE OF THEM WAS BEATEN FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END.

EVERYBODY WAS SAFE.

>> HOW DID YOU DO IT?

HOW DID YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE HUTUS, TUTSIS, WHO WAS THERE?

>> I DID NOT NEED TO KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE HUTUS OR TUTSIS.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF IT FOR ME WAS TO KNOW THAT THEY WERE HUMAN BEINGS.

I HELPED HUMAN BEINGS.

I DID NOT HELP HUTUS OR TUTSIS.

>> YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER COMING TO COVER IT IN 1994, AND I ALSO STAYED AT THE HOTEL MILLE COLLEEN SLIGHTLY AFTER THE INCIDENT THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT YOU REMEMBER THE RADIO MILLE COLLEEN AS WELL WHO WERE AGITATING AND REALLY TURNING THE THEM AGAINST PEOPLE.

>> WELL, I WAS ALSO HEARING THE RADIO, BUT ALSO -- BUT I ALSO KEPT -- I KEPT NEGOTIATING WITH THOSE WHO WERE THE MILITIAS, TRYING TO SAVE LIVES THAT WAS MY ADMINISTRATION.

THE RADIO, I DID NOT CARE THAT MUCH.

OF COURSE, RADIOS, EVERYTHING, EVERYBODY WENT MAD.

>> WHEN YOU HEARD THE RADIO CALLING TUTSIS COCKROACHES AND URGING THEM TO BE KILLED, YOUR WIFE WAS A TUTSI.

WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND?

>> WELL, THAT WAS VERY CLEAR TO US, DEHUMANIZING PEOPLE BEFORE KILLING THEM.

THAT WAS A KIND OF A WAY, A WAY OF DEHUMANIZING THEM SO THAT KILLING THEM WOULD NOT BE KILLING HUMAN BEINGS BUT JUST INSECTS.

COCKROACHES.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT AMERICA.

WHEN YOU HEAR POLITICAL LANGUAGE TODAY, 30 YEARS AFTER THE RWANDA GENOCIDE, DONALD TRUMP CALLS MIGRANTS ANIMALS, LESS THAN HUMAN.

HE EVEN CALLS HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS VERMIN, INSECTS.

ANIMALS.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, IN RWANDA, KILLING THAT TIME IN 1994, TRYING TO KILL PEOPLE AS PEOPLE, IT WAS NOT EASY.

NOBODY WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THEM.

BUT DEHUMANIZING HUMAN BEINGS, CALLING THEM ANIMALS, THAT WAS THE WAY OF HUMILIATING THEM, PUTTING THEM ON THE GROUND SO THAT KILLING THEM WOULD BE NOT KILLING HUMAN BEINGS, BUT KILLING INSECTS.

SO THEREFORE, WHOEVER WANTS TO PLAY AGAIN, FIRST OF ALL, OF DOING SOMETHING WRONG, SOMETHING BAD, LIKE KILLING, DEHUMANIZES FIRST OF ALL THE VICTIMS BEFORE KILLING THEM.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS.

AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN RWANDA IN 1994.

>> AFTER "HOTEL RWANDA," THE FILM, AND AFTER YOUR, YOU KNOW, HEROISM DURING THAT TIME, YOU JOINED POLITICS.

AND FOR THAT, YOU WERE ARRESTED.

YOU WERE TRIED.

YOU WERE IMPRISONED, ET CETERA.

EVENTUALLY, YOUR SENTENCE WAS COMMUTED.

YOU DID NOT GET A PARDON, AND THE GOVERNMENT SAID IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THERE IS CONSENSUS THAT CRIMES WERE COMMITTED BY RUSESABAGINA, THAT'S YOU, AND THE MILITIA, FOR WHICH THEY WERE CONVICTED.

AND UNDER RWANDAN LAW, COMMUTATION DOES NOT EXTINGUISH THE UNDERLYING CONVICTION.

YOU EXPRESSED REGRET FOR YOUR ACTIONS WITH THE POLITICAL GROUP THAT APPARENTLY LED TO NINE KILLINGS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT, AND ARE YOU STILL REGRETFUL?

>> I DO NOT REGRET ANYTHING.

I WAS -- WELL, OF COURSE I JOINED POLITICS BECAUSE I TRIED TO FIND A WAY OF BEING THE VOICE FOR THE VOICELESS THROUGH POLITICS, THROUGH HUMANITARIAN ACTIONS, TALKING FOR THOSE WHO COULD NOT TALK FOR THEMSELVES.

>> PAUL, IN A LETTER AFTER YOUR SENTENCE WAS COMMUTED, YOU WROTE TO THE RWANDAN PRESIDENT, PAUL KAGAME, EXPRESSING REGRET FOR ANY CONNECTION TO VIOLENT ACTIONS BY THE FLN.

YOU SAID "I EXTEND MY HEARTFELT SORROW FOR ANY PAIN FLN'S ACTIONS HAVE CAUSED TO VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES."

AND THEY SAID THAT THEY ACCEPT THIS AND THAT YOU HAVE AGREED TO STAY OUT OF POLITICS.

>> THAT TIME I WAS IN HELL.

I WAS IN HELL.

I WAS BEING TORTURED.

I WAS BEING BEATEN.

I WAS IN A SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR ALMOST 10 MONTHS.

BETWEEN -- BETWEEN AUGUST 27th, 2020, UNTIL -- UNTIL JUNE 12th, 2021, I WAS IN HELL.

ONCE YOU ARE IN HELL, WHAT CAN YOU SAY?

YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING.

>> SO WILL YOU STAY OUT OF POLITICS?

IN THE LETTER, YOU SAID YOU WILL SPEND THE REMAINDER OF YOUR DAYS IN THE UNITED STATES IN QUIET REFLECTION.

AND THEN YOU SAID THEY EXPECTED ME TO BE SILENT, TO BE THE GOOD GUY AND BEHAVE.

NO ONE CAN SILENCE ME THAT EASILY.

SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

>> NO ONE STILL MY WORD DID NOT CHANGE AS SUCH.

MY MESSAGE IS VERY SIMPLE.

NO ONE CAN SILENCE ME THAT MUCH.

HUMILIATE ME RWANDA IS SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

HOW CAN A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY SILENCE CITIZENS?

>> PAUL, AS YOU KNOW, SINCE PAUL KAGAME HAS BEEN IN OFFICE, THERE ARE MANY COMPLAINTS.

THERE ARE ALSO MANY SUCCESSES.

THE ECONOMY, THE ENVIRONMENT, GENDER EQUALITY, ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

YOU SAID THE KILLINGS HAVE NEVER STOPPED.

AND YET THE TUTSI-HUTU KILLINGS HAVE STOPPED INSIDE.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S PERMANENT?

IS RECONCILIATION REAL?

>> KILLINGS HAVE NEVER STOPPED IN RWANDA INSIDE THE COUNTRY BECAUSE AS WE ARE TALKING RIGHT NOW, YOU'VE GOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF RWANDANS.

THE PRISON WHERE I WAS, WE WERE ABOUT 18,500 PEOPLE, MEANING 2,500 WOMEN AND 16,000 MEN.

THEREFORE, I'M TELLING YOU THAT RWANDA IN RWANDA PEOPLE ARE BEING FRUSTRATED.

THOSE PRISONERS ARE EATING, JUST BEING FED ONE MEAL A DAY EVERY DAY AT 11:00 A.M., AND IT IS JUST BEANS AND CORN.

CAN YOU IMAGINE LIVING THAT KIND OF LIFE FOR A YEAR, TWO YEARS?

SOME OF PRISONERS HAVE LIVED THAT KIND OF LIFE FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS.

TODAY WE HAVE TWO WONDERS.

WE HAVE THE GO THE GOVERNMENT PRESIDENT IN RWANDA WHICH IS THE CAPITAL CITY OF KIGALI, WITH HIM AND HIS SELECTED PEOPLE.

AND YOU HAVE THE RURAL AREA WHICH IS COMPLETELY ANOTHER RWANDA.

MISERABLE, WHERE PEOPLE ARE DYING OF HUNGER.

>> BUT DO YOU THINK THAT ALL THE TRIALS, ALL THE NEIGHBORHOOD TRIALS, ALL THE WAR CRIMES TRIALS AND KAGAME'S LEADERSHIP, HAS IT BROUGHT RECONCILIATION?

OR IF HE GOES, WILL IT EXPLODE AGAIN?

>> AS I HAVE ALWAYS SAID AND REPEATED TODAY, RWANDA IS A VOLCANO, A VOLCANO WHERE PEOPLE HATE EACH OTHER, WHERE PEOPLE ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE, WHICH THAT VOLCANO CAN ERUPT ANY TIME.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK, PAUL, THE WEST SHOULD DO?

YOU REMEMBER, THEY DID NOT INTERVENE TO STOP THE GENOCIDE.

YOU, YOUR RELEASE WAS HELPED ALONG BY THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES.

STATES AND EXTERNAL POWERS SHOULD, COULD DO?

>> WHEN I WAS A CHILD GROWING UP, WE WOULD ALWAYS MEET ONCE A YEAR, AND THAT WAS THE NEW YEAR'S EVE.

AND THAT TIME MY DAD WOULD ALWAYS GIVE US A LISTEN AT THE END OF OUR STAY HOME.

HE WOULD TELL US THAT MY SONS, MY CHILDREN, IF YOU HAPPEN TO SEE TWO BROTHERS FIGHTING, YOU AND YOU ARE CALLED UP TO COME AND SEPARATE THEM.

YOU COME.

STAND IN THE MIDDLE AND TO NEVER LOOK TO YOUR LEFT-HAND BECAUSE THAT EYE ON YOUR LEFT-HAND SIDE IS TRYING TO CORRUPT YOUR DECISION, YOUR METHOD.

YOU NEVER LOOK AT YOUR RIGHT-HAND SIDE BECAUSE THE EYE ALSO ON THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE IS ALSO TRYING TO CORRUPT YOUR DECISION.

LOOK UP AND SAY THE TRUTH.

RWANDANS NEED FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, FROM THE WHOLE WORLD IS NOT TO STAND ON THE HUTU SIDE OR THE TUTSI SIDE, BUT TO STAND IN THE MIDDLE UNTIL TODAY'S PRESIDENT, OR WHOEVER WE CALL HIM, TO STAND IN THE MIDDLE AND SAY THAT TRUTH, AND SO FAR THE TRUTH HAS NEVER BEEN SAID.

NOBODY HAS BEEN NEUTRAL.

NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS BEEN NEUTRAL IN TRYING TO SOLVE, TO HELP RWANDA TO SOLVE ITS PROBLEMS.

IT'S EVERYONE.

THERE IS ALWAYS BENDING ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

>> AND ONE OTHER THING.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT KAGAME, BUT YOU SAID RWANDA IS A VOLCANO.

KAGAME CLAIMS, AND HIS WESTERN BACKERS CLAIM WHAT HE KEEPS THE VOLCANO CALM.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

IS HE KEEPING IT CALM, OR IS HE STIRRING THE VOLCANO?

YOU KNOW, IN 1994, APRIL 6, I NEVER EXPECTED WHAT HAPPENED TO HAPPEN.

I NEVER, NEVER THOUGHT, NOBODY THOUGHT THAT -- WOULD DIE THE WAY HE DIED.

WE WERE SURPRISED.

I THINK THAT IF WE HAPPEN TO BE SURPRISED AND SEE WHAT HAPPENED, TO KAGAME, THEN WE WILL SEE WORSE THAN WHAT WE WENT THROUGH IN 1994.

>> WELL, THERE YOU ARE.

AND THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS.

AND FOR YOU, DID "HOTEL RWANDA" AND THE FAME THAT CAME WITH IT AND WHAT YOU DID -- WELL, OBVIOUSLY WHAT YOU DID WILL ALWAYS BE WORTH IT, BECAUSE YOU SAVED THOSE MANY LIVES.

BUT THE FAME, HAS IT BEEN BENEFICIAL FOR YOU OR A NEGATIVE?

>> WELL, IT HAS BEEN MAYBE 150% BENEFICIAL FOR ME BECAUSE WOULD I HAVE BEEN NOT KNOWN BY THE WORLD, THEN TODAY I WOULDN'T BE HERE.

YOU WILL MAYBE KNOW, YOU NOTICE IF YOU EVEN DO SOME RESEARCH INTO THE WORLD, THE WORLD DOES SOME RESEARCHES, YOU WILL KNOW THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAPPENED TO KIDNAPPED AWAY, I WAS KIDNAPPED, TORTURED, ALL OF THEM EX-ACCEPT ME, I AM AN EXCEPTION, CATEGORIZED AND IT HAPPENED SURPRISINGLY TO GET OUT OF RWANDA AFTER TWO YEARS AND SEVEN MONTHS WHICH IS ALMOST NOTHING.

AND WHO WAS NOT KILLED IN PRISON.

AND THIS IS BECAUSE OF "HOTEL RWANDA."

>> PAUL RUSESABAGINA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> OH, YOU ARE THE MOST WELCOME.

THANK YOU.

>> AND AS WE MENTIONED, 30 YEARS LATER, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SENT A DELEGATION FOR THIS WEEKEND HEADED BY FORMER PRESIDENT CLINTON WHO WAS PRESIDENT AT THAT TIME.

>>> NOW, NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES FOR AN INTIMATE LOOK AT THE RELIGIOUS GROUP THAT HELPED PUT DONALD TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE BACK IN 2016.

WHITE EVANGELICALS.

AS A POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR NPR, REPORTER SARAH McCAMMON HAS DUG INTO THIS TRANSFORMATIVE GROUP AND ITS GROWING IMPACT ON RIGHT-WING AMERICAN POLITICS.

67 IN HER NEW BOOK, "THE EXVANGELICALS," SHE REVEALS WHY THEY'RE GROWING UP AND FLEEING THE FOLD.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

SARAH McCAMMON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT FASCINATED ME WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK, UNTIL I READ YOUR BOOK, I HAD NO IDEA OF YOUR BACKGROUND.

I THINK LIKE MOST CLASSICALLY TRAINED REPORTERS, YOU DON'T PUT YOURSELF AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE STORY.

HOW DID IT COME TO YOU THAT YOU HAD A STORY, THAT YOUR OWN SORT OF PERSONAL JOURNEY WAS PART OF A BIGGER PICTURE?

>> I MEAN, YOU'RE RIGHT.

AND I THOUGHT HARD ABOUT WHETHER I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT MY PERSONAL STORY.

I KIND OF ACCIDENTALLY FOUND MYSELF IN 2016 COVERING THE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THE MOVEMENT THAT I CAME FROM, THAT SHAPED ME.

AND IN MANY WAYS, I WENT INTO JOURNALISM BECAUSE I WANTED TO KEEP MYSELF OUT OF THE STORY.

I HAD GROWN UP IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND ME, TO BE QUITE HONEST, HAD A LOT OF CONFIDENCE ABOUT THE ANSWERS.

AND I DIDN'T ALWAYS HAVE THAT SAME CONFIDENCE.

AND I THINK JOURNALISM IN RETROSPECT WAS PLACE WHERE I COULD ASK QUESTIONS AND LOOK FOR ANSWERS RATHER THAN TRY TO START WITH THEM.

I WANT TO SAY THAT FIRST OF ALL.

BUT WHEN I WAS ASSIGNED TO COVER THE 2016 ELECTION, I WAS ASSIGNED TO RECOVER THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY BY NPR.

DONALD TRUMP OF COURSE WAS THROUGHOUT MOST OF THAT RACE THE FRONT-RUNNER, EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T BELIEVE HE WOULD REALLY STAY IN THAT POSITION.

AND SO MUCH OF THE STORY WOUND UP CENTERING AROUND THE WHITE EVANGELICAL BASE.

WOULD THEY ACCEPT THIS LIES THE MARRIED RATHER BRASH OFTEN CRASS PERSON WHO SEEMED SO ANTITHETICAL TO EVERYTHING THE MOVEMENT SAID IT STOOD FOR.

AND I DID THOSE STORIES.

OUR COLLEAGUES AND I THINK YOU DID SOME OF THOSE STORIES ABOUT HOW WERE WHITE EVANGELICALS RESPONDING TO TRUMP.

AND I COVERED THEM AS A JOURNALIST, AS WE ALWAYS DO.

BUT OVER TIME AS I THOUGHT MORE ABOUT THAT ELECTION AND THE WHITE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT AND SORT OF WATCHED THE AFTERMATH OF THAT ELECTION UNFOLD, I REALIZED THAT I HAD A STORY TO TELL, AND THAT I HAD BEEN SEEING THINGS THROUGHOUT THAT CAMPAIGN AND IN THE YEARS THAT FOLLOWED THAT RESONATED WITH AND REMINDED ME OF THINGS I SAW AS A CHILD.

SO THAT'S REALLY WHAT THIS BOOK COMES FROM IS A DESIRE TO INTEGRATE MY PERSONAL STORY WITH MY PROFESSIONAL STORY, TWO THINGS THAT RAN HEAD-LONG INTO ONE ANOTHER IN 2016.

>> SO TELL A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU GREW UP.

>> EVANGELICALS REALLY STRESS A ONE-ON-ONE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS, LOOKING AT THE BIBLE, OPENING UP IT UP, READING IT FOR YOURSELF.

AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE HAD A MESSAGE THAT WE NEEDED TO SHARE WITH THE WORLD, AND WE HAD SORT OF A VISION FOR HOW THE FAMILY SHOULD BE, AND IN MANY CASES HOW THE COUNTRY SHOULD BE.

THAT WAS A LOT OF THE MESSAGING THAT I HEARD GROWING UP.

WE SAW MOST PEOPLE, FRANKLY, AS LOST, AS FALLEN.

WE BELIEVED THAT THERE ARE VERSES IN THE BIBLE THAT ONLY A NARROW PATH TO HEAVEN.

AND WE REALLY BELIEVED IN THAT, LITERALLY.

WE BELIEVED THAT MOST PEOPLE WERE NOT ON THAT PATH, AND IT WAS OUR JOB TO HELP THEM FIND IT.

AND SO FOR ME, AND I SHOULD SAY THAT EVANGELICALISM IS A VERY BIG MOVEMENT.

A LOT OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHURCHES FALL INTO THAT, AND IT'S -- THERE IS A SPECTRUM OF BELIEF AND PRACTICE.

SO WHAT I'M SAYING MIGHT NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE.

BUT I THINK MOST OF THE EVANGELICAL KIDS OF MY GENERATION GREW UP WITH SIMILAR INFLUENCES, A SIMILAR SORT OF CONCEPT OF THE WORLD, SIMILAR VIEWS OF HUMAN SEXUALITY, AND WE WERE TAUGHT THAT MARRIAGES BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN, THAT THE RISE OF GAY RIGHTS IS SORT OF A SIGN OF THE FALLING AWAY OF THE COUNTRY FROM BEING A CHRISTIAN NATION, CERTAINLY ABORTION RIGHTS AND THE CHANGING ROLES OF WOMEN WERE PART OF THAT.

AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT MANY EVANGELICALS IN MY COMMUNITY WERE ACTIVELY FIGHTING AGAINST.

AND THAT MESSAGE WAS VERY MUCH TIED UP WITH THE SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS MESSAGE THAT I WAS HEARING AND CHARGED IN MY CHRISTIAN SCHOOL, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING AFRAID A LOT.

WHAT WERE YOU AFRAID?

SORT OF THIS SENSE OF LIVING WELL ON EARTH, BUT IT WAS ALSO INFUSED WITH FEAR.

WHAT WAS THE FEAR OF?

>> YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THERE IS THIS VARYING SORT OF BLACK AND WHITE LITERALISTIC YOU'RE IN OR YOU'RE OUT KIND OF BINARY VIEW OF THE WORLD IN MANY WAYS.

WE HAD THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH FROM GOD.

WE KNEW IT FOR SURE THAT MEANT THAT PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T AGREE WITH US OR SEE THE WORLD IN THE SAME WAY THAT WAS DESCRIBED IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS, IT MIGHT BE DESCRIBED AS NOT HAVING THEIR HEART RIGHT WITH GOD, AS NOT HAVING ACCEPTED JESUS, NOT FOLLOWING THE RIGHT PATH, NOT WALKING WITH THE LORD IS EVEN A PHRASE THAT WOULD BE APPLIED TO PEOPLE WHO WERE SORT OF IN THE CHURCH BUT NOT EXPRESSING IT ENOUGH OR NOT SHOWING THROUGH THEIR BEHAVIOR IN WAYS THAT PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH THOUGHT WAS ADEQUATE, THAT THEY WERE PART OF IN THE FOLD.

SO THERE WAS A LOT OF FEAR THERE WAS A LOT OF FEAR OF STEPPING OUT OF LINE, OF ANGERING GOD, OF DISPLEASING GOD.

AND ULTIMATELY, OF GOING TO HELL.

THAT HELL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IMAGERY THAT YOU ASSOCIATE WITH OLD TIMEY PREACHERS, THAT WAS A BIG PART OF MY LIFE.

AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS THE FACT THAT WHILE MOST PEOPLE I KNEW WERE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS, I WAS KIND OF DELIBERATELY AND INTENSELY SURROUNDED BY EVANGELICALS AT MY CHRISTIAN SCHOOL AND AT MY CHURCH AND SO FORTH.

ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE I KNEW WHO WAS NOT WAS MY GRANDFATHER.

AND WE WERE VERY WORRIED FOR HIM.

I WOULD LIE IN BED AT NIGHT.

I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK FEARING FOR HIS SOUL, AFRAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO TO HELL FOREVER.

AND THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT KIND OF THINKING, IT SHAPED A LOT OF US WHO GREW UP IN THIS MOVEMENT.

>> SO FAST FORWARD, WHEN DID YOU SEE CRACKS IN THE DAM?

WHEN DID IT START TO BREAK FOR YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME THIS.

WHAT WAS THE MOMENT?

AND THERE WASN'T ONE MOMENT.

AND I THINK FOR MANY OF THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED, IT WAS THE SAME.

THERE WERE MANY MOMENTS.

THERE WERE MANY LITTLE THINGS THAT JUST FELT LIKE THEY DIDN'T ADD UP, OR MOMENTS OF EXPOSURE TO PEOPLE WHO WERE DIFFERENT, WHO DIDN'T QUITE FIT THE MOLD OF WHAT WE WERE TOLD THE WORLD SHOULD BE LIKE OR WAS LIKE.

AND AGAIN, MY GRANDFATHER WAS A REALLY BIG PART OF THAT FOR ME.

I ALWAYS STRUGGLED WITH THE IDEA THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM, BOTH BECAUSE HE WASN'T A CHRISTIAN, AND ALSO BECAUSE AS A TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, HE HAD COME OUT AFTER MY GRANDMOTHER PASSED AWAY IN THE '80s, HE CAME OUT AS GAY LATER IN LIFE THAT WAS A SOURCE OF A LOT OF CONFLICT AND TENSION IN MY FAMILY.

THIS WAS, AGAIN, A TIME WHEN THE MORAL MAJORITY WAS ON THE RISE.

THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT WAS RISING.

MY PARENTS WERE VERY INFLUENCED BY RIGHT-WING LEADERS LIKE JAMES DOBSON AND GARY BAUER AND RALPH REID AND OTHERS, AND PEOPLE WHO WERE FIGHTING AGAINST SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND FIGHTING AGAINST ABORTION RIGHTS.

SO THE IDEA THAT MY OWN GRANDFATHER WAS LIVING IN THIS QUOTE, UNQUOTE LIFESTYLE I THINK WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR MY PARENTS.

IT REALLY CLASHED WITH THEIR BELIEFS, AND IT MEANT THAT MY SIBLINGS AND I DIDN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH HIM BECAUSE HE WAS SEEN AS SORT OF A THREATENING FIGURE.

BUT I THINK OVER TIME, AS I THOUGHT MORE ABOUT THAT AND REALLY JUST KIND OF FELT A PULL TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY GRANDFATHER, AND ALSO THROUGH INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER KIDS HERE AND THERE WHO WERE NOT EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS -- >> FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WERE A SENATE PAGE.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

YOU MET A KID THERE WHEN YOU WERE A SENATE PAGE.

TALK THAN EXPERIENCE.

>> YEAH, IT WAS A BIG DEAL.

IN MANY WAYS I'M KIND OF AMAZED MY PARENTS LET ME DO IT.

I'M GRATEFUL THEY DID BECAUSE I WAS SO SHELTERED.

YET THEY LET ME GO OFF TO WASHINGTON, D.C. AND LIVE IN A GROUP OF MAYBE 40 OR SO OTHER SENATE PAGES.

AND I WAS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN REALLY WHAT WAS A PUBLIC SCHOOL, A SMALL PUBLIC SCHOOL PROVIDED BY THE SENATE, SURROUNDED BY KIDS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY OF DIFFERENT FAITHS OR NO FAITH.

I HAD A MUSLIM FRIEND FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND THAT WAS ALSO A PIVOTAL CONVERSATION FOR ME.

YOU KNOW, I TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT THIS MOMENT THAT WE'RE SITTING ON THOSE SENATE STEPS, AND HE AND I WERE JUST SORT OF SHARING ABOUT OUR FAMILY BACKGROUNDS.

HIS PARENTS HAD COME AS REFUGEES FROM IRAN, AS IMMIGRANTS FROM IRAN.

AND YOU KNOW, HE HAD GROWN UP IN A MUSLIM FAMILY.

I GREW UP IN AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN FAMILY.

WE WERE KIND OF TRADING NOTES.

HE LOOKED ME IN THE EYE AND ASKED ME IF I THOUGHT THAT HE WAS GOING TO HELL BECAUSE HE WAS A MUSLIM.

AND THIS WAS SOMEBODY WHO WAS MY FRIEND, WHO I CARED ABOUT.

HE WAS A REALLY LOVELY PERSON.

AND I COULD SEE EVEN THEN THAT HE BELIEVED WHAT HE BELIEVED BECAUSE HOW HE WAS RAISED, AND I BELIEVED WHAT I BELIEVED AS A PRODUCT OF MY OWN CULTURE AND COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW, I COULD SENSE THAT.

AND IT FELT WRONG TO TELL HIM THAT I THOUGHT HE WAS.

SO I KIND OF SAID I DIDN'T KNOW, BECAUSE I WASN'T READY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

AND I THINK WHEN I WAS QUOTED THAT DIRECTLY BY SOMEBODY I CARED ABOUT, IT REALLY FORCED ME TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IS IT THAT I REALLY DO BELIEVE.

SO AS I GOT OLDER, I HAD MANY MORE MOMENTS LIKE THAT.

SOME OF IT WAS AROUND SCIENCE.

I WAS OUT THE CREATIONISM, AND THAT BECAME ININCREASINGLY HARD TO HOLD ON TO AND BELIEVE.

I WAS TAUGHT SYSTEMATICALLY THROUGH TEXTBOOKS, EVERYTHING, MY WORLD REINFORCED IT.

IT FELT LIKE A BETRAYAL TO ABANDON THAT.

BUT AS I LEARNED MORE, IT BECAME HARDER AND HARDER TO HOLD ON TO SO MANY OF THOSE IDEAS.

THAT'S THE EXPERIENCE THE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE OF TRYING TO ALIGN WHAT THEY PERCEIVE AND FEEL ABOUT THE WORLD WITH THIS BELIEF SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS MATCH THAT.

>> THERE ARE A GROUP OF PEOPLE YOU DESCRIBE.

DONALD TRUMP WAS THE CRISIS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK MANY PEOPLE IN THE MOVEMENT, OR WITH TIES IN THE MOVEMENT, FOR THEM EVANGELICALISM WAS THEIR COMMUNITY AND THEIR CULTURE.

IT'S FORCED A LOT OF SOUL-SEARCHING, AND IT'S CATALYZED CONVERSATIONS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR ONE THING ARE POSSIBLE TODAY IN A WAY THEY WEREN'T IN THE PAST.

SOMETHING I TALK ABOUT A LOT IS THE FACT THAT IF YOU LEFT A RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO, YOU MIGHT BE A FEW BOOKS OUT THERE.

YOU PROBABLY WOULD RUN INTO OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAD HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE.

BUT THERE WAS NO MAJOR ORGANIZED WAY TO FIND OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN ON THAT JOURNEY, WHICH CAN BE VERY DISORIENTING AND ISOLATING.

AND TODAY, BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET, THERE ARE FACEBOOK GROUPS.

THERE ARE PODCASTS, THERE ARE HASH TAGS, EXVANGELICAL IS A HASH TAG I FIRST CAME ACROSS WHEN COVERING THE 2016 CAMPAIGN AND TALKING TO SOME WHITE EVANGELICALS WHO WERE FEELING A BIT DISILLUSIONED WITH THE ALIGNMENT OF EVANGELICALISM AND TRUMP.

BUT THAT HAS -- THAT HASH TAG HAS BLOWN UP ONLINE IN RECENT YEARS.

AND THERE ARE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON AROUND RELIGIOUS DISAFFILIATION ACROSS THE BOARD, THIS TERM DECONSTRUCTION IS KIND OF A SIMILAR RELATED IDEA THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S BECOME A LANGUAGE REALLY FOR THIS EXPERIENCE OF RETHINKING ONE'S FAITH BACKGROUND.

AND I SHOULD SAY EVANGELICALS ARE -- VELLISM HAS BEEN ON A LONG-TERM DOWNWARD TRAJECTORY AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS OR SO.

IT USED TO BE ABOUT ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE WERE WHITE EVANGELICALS.

NOW THAT'S MORE LIKE 14%.

BUT THAT IS NOT UNIQUE TO EVANGELICALS.

WHITE CHRISTIANITY AS A WHOLE IS ON THE DECLINE, AND THE COUNTRY IS BECOMING MORE SECULAR, PERHAPS MORE LIKE EUROPE.

AND SO THERE IS A LOT OF SHIFTING THAT'S HAPPENING.

THERE IS ALSO SOME EVIDENCE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE EVANGELICAL LABEL BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

AND SO WHAT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING IS THERE ARE A LOT OF RIFTS IN CHURCHES AND A DEEPENING OF SOME OF THE SORT OF POLITICAL POLARIZATION THAT GOES WITH EVANGELICAL LABEL.

>> THERE IS THIS LINGERING QUESTION EXISTING FOR MANY PEOPLE, WHICH IS HOW IS IT THAT THE WHITE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT CAN BROADLY DEFINE, UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING YOU SAID, LOTS OF DIFFERENT CHURCHES, ET CETERA AS A PART OF THAT.

AS A GROUP, HEW SO CLOSELY TO SOMEBODY WHO WOULD SEEM ON THE SURFACE TO BE SO ANTITHETICAL TO THE THINGS THEY CLAIM TO PROFESS.

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO MAJOR ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION.

THE FIRST IS PRAGMATIC AND INSTRUMENTAL.

EVANGELICALS IN 2016 SAW TRUMP AS SOMEONE WHO WOULD DELIVER ON THEIR GOALS, AND HE DID IN MANY CASES, RIGHT, THE OVERTURNING WITH ROE V. WADE AND SO FORTH.

AND THEY SEE HIM AS SOMEONE WHO WILL CONTINUE TO STAND UP FOR THEM, TO STAND UP FOR THEIR MOVEMENT.

THE SECOND PART OF THAT ANSWER, AND IT'S RELATED TO THE FIRST, IS THE FACT THAT IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE MESSAGING AROUND AMERICA, AND I OUTLINE A LOT OF THIS IN MY BOOK, THE IDEA THAT EVANGELICALS, MANY EVANGELICALS TOLD AND HAVE FOR A LONG TIME IS AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION.

IT WAS FOUNDED AT A CHRISTIAN NATION, AND IT HAS MOVED AWAY FROM GOD AND CHRISTIANITY.

RECENTLY TRUMP HELD UP THAT BIBLE THAT HE WAS HOCKING ON TRUTH SOCIAL AND SAID WE'RE UNDER SIEGE, WE'RE GOING BRING CHRISTIANITY BACK, THAT MESSAGE RESONATES FOR EVANGELICALS.

THEY DON'T CARE TOO MUCH THAT TRUMP IS OBVIOUSLY NOT A DEEPLY RELIGIOUS PERSON.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME ATTEMPTS TO SUGGEST THAT HE IS, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE MOST EVANGELICALS BELIEVE THAT.

IF YOU LOOK AT POLLING BY GROUPS LIKE PEW, MOST EVANGELICALS WHO SUPPORT TRUMP DON'T SEE HIM AS DEEPLY DEVOUT.

THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

THE POINT IS HE IS THE CHAMPION FOR THEIR MOVEMENT.

HE SPEAKS THEIR LANGUAGE.

AND HE HAS FROM THE BEGINNING SOUGHT THEM OUT, MADE THEM A PRIORITY AND SAID WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR, AND IN MANY CASES DELIVERED ON WHAT HE WANTED THEM TO DO.

AND THAT SEEMS TO BE ENOUGH FOR A MAJORITY OF WHITE EVANGELICALS.

>> ARE EXVANGELICALS, AS YOU DESCRIBE THEM AND AS OTHERS HAVE DESCRIBED THEM, ARE THEY EMERGING AS A POLITICAL FORCE IN ANY DIRECTION?

>> I THINK THEY COULD BE.

I THINK IT'S EARLY TO SAY.

AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEFT RELIGION IN PART BECAUSE OF DISAFFECTION WITH SOME OF THE POLITICIZATION OF RELIGION, BOTH EX-EVANGELICALS AND SOME FORMER CATHOLICS, THEY FORM A PRETTY BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE.

AND THERE IS A HOST OF REASONS WHY PEOPLE LEAVE.

SOME OF IT HAS TO DO WITH SIMPLY NOT BELIEVING THE THINGS THEIR CHURCHES TEACH.

BUT THE POLLING I'VE SEEN FROM GROUPS LIKE THE PUBLIC RELIGION RESEARCH INSTITUTE SUGGESTS THAT PARTICULARLY THE TREATMENT OF LGBTQ PEOPLE BY MUCH OF THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT IS A MAJOR FACTOR FOR PARTICULARLY A LOT OF YOUNGER PEOPLE DISAFFILIATING FROM THEIR CHURCHES.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE THIS GROUP ON THE HOLE, OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES NONES, OR NOTHING AT ALL, THEY ARE GROUPS THAT LEANS LEFT.

THEY TEND TO VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT THEY'RE ALSO LESS POLITICALLY ENGAGED THAN WHITE EVANGELICALS.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS MAYBE A BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT SORT OF LOOSELY CONNECTED IN THE SENSE THAT THEY'VE LEFT RELIGION, MAYBE PARTLY FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

BUT THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE ORGANIZED YET AROUND A COMMON GOAL.

I THINK THAT'S A CHALLENGE OF POLITICAL ORGANIZERS THAT WHITE EVANGELICALS, WHILE THEY ARE A SHRINKING PART OF THE POPULATION, REMAIN A VERY POLITICALLY ENGAGED AND UNIFIED VOTING BLOC.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAW AND TAPPED INTO.

NOW WHERE THAT GOES LONG-TERM I THINK IS A FASCINATING QUESTION, BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH THAT'S IN FLUX RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES TO AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY AND AMERICAN RELIGION IN GENERAL.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT CAN BE REALLY INTENSE IS THAT INTERIOR WORLD OF DISENGAGING FROM WHAT YOU KNOW, AND WHAT YOU GREW UP KNOWING AND BELIEVING.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK, IF YOU DON'T MIND, IS THAT A CONTINUING SOURCE OF STRUGGLE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE TENSION IS SORT OF SORTING THROUGH THE THINGS THAT YOU LOVE AND BELIEVE AND THEN SIFTING THROUGH THOSE THINGS AND PRESERVING THEM WHILE ALSO OPENING, YOU KNOW, AND EXPANDING.

I MEAN, I THINK FOR ME, MY OWN RELIGIOUS SORT OF IDENTITY HAS CHANGED BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO INCLUDE PEOPLE THAT I FELT I COULDN'T INCLUDE.

IN THE WORLD THAT I WAS BROUGHT UP IN, PEOPLE LIKE MY GRANDFATHER AND LIKE MY FRIEND WHO CAME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY.

I WANTED TO INCLUDE THOSE PEOPLE.

I WANTED TO LOVE THEM.

I WANTED TO SEE THEM JUST AS VALID AS ME.

AND THAT NECESSITATED A SHIFT IN MY OWN THINKING.

BUT THAT SHIFT, AND NOT JUST FOR ME, FOR MANY PEOPLE I TALKED TO, IT CAN BE VERY ISOLATING AND SCARY, BECAUSE IT MEANS -- IT SORT OF LEADS TO THE QUESTION, WELL, IF I CHANGE THIS PART OF ME, WHAT ELSE CHANGES?

AND WHAT DO I REALLY KNOW AND WHAT DO I HOLD ON TO?

I THINK THAT, YES, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, THERE IS STILL A TENSION FOR ME.

BUT ULTIMATELY, THAT QUESTION OF WHAT DO I THINK AND HOW DO I WANT TO LIVE IS BETWEEN EITHER, YOU KNOW, US AND OURSELVES OR MAYBE OURSELVES AND GOD IF YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO BELIEVES IN GOD.

BUT THAT'S I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THIS BOOK IS JUST DESCRIBING THE FACT THAT THIS JOURNEY IS A CHALLENGING ONE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND THAT FINDING OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE ON A SIMILAR JOURNEY REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARRIVE AT THE END CAN BE VERY EMPOWERING AND VERY COMFORTING.

>> SARAH McCAMMON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, IT IS NATO'S 75th BIRTHDAY.

SO IT THREW ITSELF A PARTY.

♪♪ A GRAND AFFAIR WITH MARCHING BANDS AND CAKE CUTTING.

THE NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION IS THE LARGEST MILITARY ALLIANCE IN HISTORY.

OF COURSE, THIS CELEBRATION COMES AT A TIME WHEN THE ALLIANCE IS UNDER STRAIN LIKE NEVER BEFORE AS AN IMPERIALIST RUSSIA BRINGS WAR TO EUROPE'S VERY DOORSTEP.

THE ORGANIZATION WAS BORN IN THE ASHES OF WORLD WAR II TO DEFEND DEMOCRACIES.

TAKE A LISTEN TO U.S. PRESIDENT HARRY TRUMAN AS HE SIGNED THIS UNIQUE ALLIANCE INTO BEING IN 1949.

>> IF THERE IS ANYTHING CERTAIN TODAY, IF THERE IS ANYTHING INEVITABLE IN THE FUTURE, IT IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD FOR OUR FREEDOM AND FOR PEACE.

>> PEOPLE'S WILL FOR FREEDOM AND PEACE IS BEING SORELY TESTED BY THEIR AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS TODAY.

LET'S SEE WHO WINS THIS EXISTENTIAL STRUGGLE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.