>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": YET MORE VIOLENT ATTACKS ON ASIAN-AMERICANS HAVE BEEN MAKING HEADLINES IN RECENT DAYS IN WHAT'S JUST THE LATEST TROUBLING CHAPTER IN A LONG HISTORY OF ANTI-ASIAN RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

FORMER FITCHBURG MAYOR LISA WONG AND "THE BOSTON GLOBE'S" SHIRLEY LEUNG AND KAMI RIECK JOIN ME ON THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES AND HOW THE COUNTRY IS MEETING THIS MOMENT.

THEN, LATER, THE MURDER TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN, TURNING FROM EMOTIONAL WITNESS TESTIMONY TO A CLOSE EXAMINATION OF THE TECHNIQUE HE USED TO RESTRAIN GEORGE FLOYD BEFORE HE DIED, AND THIS TIME THE BLUE WALL OF SILENCE APPEARS TO BE TUMBLING DOWN.

>>> A 64-YEAR-OLD ASIAN-AMERICAN WOMAN WAS STABBED TO DEATH WHILE SHE WAS WALKING HER DOGS IN RIVERSIDE, CALIFORNIA, OVER THE WEEKEND.

A 65-YEAR-OLD ASIAN-AMERICAN WOMAN WAS BRUTALLY BEATEN OUTSIDE OF A CONDO BUILDING IN NEW YORK LAST WEEK WHILE BY-STANDERS LOOKED ON, WITHOUT HELPING.

AND, OF COURSE, TWO WEEKS EARLIER, EIGHT PEOPLE, INCLUDING SIX WOMEN OF ASIAN DESCENT, WERE SHOT AND KILLED AT THREE ATLANTA AREA SPAS, WITH AUTHORITIES STILL DECIDING WHETHER A HATE CRIME IS A HATE CRIME.

THESE ARE JUST SOME IN A WAVE OF RECENT ATTACKS ON ASIAN-AMERICANS, WHICH HAVE SURGED IN THE PAST YEAR SINCE THE CORONAVIRUS FIRST STARTED TO SPREAD IN THE U.S. AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT BEGAN NORMALIZING PHRASES LIKE "THE CHINA VIRUS."

AS OF THEIR LATEST REPORT, THE GROUP "STOP ASIAN-AMERICAN PACIFIC ISLANDER" -- OR AAPI -- "HATE" HAS RECEIVED MORE THAN 3,700 REPORTS OF ATTACKS SINCE LAST MARCH.

MORE THAN 400 OF THEM WERE PHYSICAL ASSAULTS, AND MANY OTHERS WERE VERBAL HARASSMENT, WHICH OFTEN REFERENCED DONALD TRUMP'S RACIST PHRASES.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE FORMER MAYOR OF FITCHBURG, LISA WONG, WHO'S NOW TOWN MANAGER OF WINCHESTER; "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST SHIRLEY LEUNG; AND KAMI RIECK, A SENIOR AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY, WHO WROTE A PIECE IN THE "GLOBE" ABOUT THE RACISM SHE'S EXPERIENCED AS A CHINESE-AMERICAN WOMAN.

>> Braude: ALL THREE OF YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

I APPRECIATE IT.

YOU KNOW, TO LISTEN TO MOST AMERICANS, EVEN THOSE WITH EMPATHY FOR VICTIMS OF RACISM, MANY ACT AS IF ANTI-ASIAN ANIMOUS BEGAN WITH DONALD TRUMP.

IT DID NOT, LISA, COULD YOU SHARE A PIECE OF THE STORY YOU TOLD SHIRLEY ABOUT YOUR TIME AS MAYOR OF FITCHBURG?

>> SURE.

I MEAN, I WAS MAYOR ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, SO CERTAINLY ANTI-ASIAN RACISM DATES BACK TO THEN, BUT I JUST WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING RECENTLY IS THAT THE RACIAL TRAUMA THAT THE ATLANTA SHOOTINGS IS BRINGING UP, AND THE REACTION FROM THE PUBLIC AND THE PRESS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IS REALLY BRINGING UP AND REINFORCING DECADES OF ANTI-ASIAN RACISM THAT US ARE FACING.

BUT IT IS ALSO REMINISCENT OF GENERATIONS OF HATE THAT OUR PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS AND GREAT GRANDPARENTS HAVE FELT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS COUNTRY.

BUT AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, 11AND A 11 AND A HALF YEARS AGO, YOU'RE A PUBLIC TARGET, I HATE TO SAY, AND THAT IT BRINGS OUT THE WORST IN PEOPLE.

YOU GET HATE MAIL, A LOT OF IT RACIST AND SEXIST IS NOT SURPRISING, BUT IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T SPEAK WELL FOR SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.

>> Braude: AND DID THIS STOP WHEN YOU MOVED TO WINCHESTER, WHICH IS, I THINK, A DEMOGRAPHICALLY DIFFERENT KIND OF COMMUNITY, AS LEAST I WOULD ASSUME?

DID IT STOP?

OR DID YOU EXPERIENCE IT THERE AS WELL?

>> I CERTAINLY DIDN'T GET THE LEVEL OF HATE MAIL THAT AN ELECTED OFFICIAL WOULD.

BUT I THINK WE'RE REALIZING THAT HATE DOESN'T HAVE ANY BOUNDARIES.

IT IS NOT JUST FOR ELECTED OFFICIALS.

IT IS FOR MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY.

IT IS WHEN WE GO TO THE GROCERY STORE AND WHEN WE WALK DOWN THE STREET.

IT IS ON TV.

SO IT IS EVERYWHERE.

>> Braude: KAMI, YOU WROTE: "NOT UNTIL I WAS 21 DID I ALLOW MYSELF TO ACKNOWLEDGE A LIFE-LONG RACIAL TRAUMA."

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO US?

>> YEAH.

I THINK PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE SO CONDITIONED TO WAITING FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY WHITE PEOPLE, TO CONFRONT AND WORRY ABOUT ANTI-ASIAN DISCRIMINATION.

AND WRITING THAT PIECE WAS VERY LIBERATING FOR ME BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP WITH TEACHERS AND ADULTS WHO DIDN'T NECESSARILY LABEL THE TREATMENT AS RACIST OR AS DISCRIMINATORY.

AND SO IF ADULTS CAN'T DO IT IN YOUR LIFE, THEN HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO SPEAK UP ABOUT THAT AS A YOUNG CHILD.

AND SO I THINK THAT IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT SIX WOMEN HAVE TO BE BRUTALLY KILLED FOR EVERYONE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE TREATMENT AGAINST ASIAN WOMEN.

AND I THINK WRITING THAT PIECE ALLOWED ME TO FIND MY VOICE AND IT FELT VERY FREEING TO DO IT AS WELL.

>> Braude: KAMI, DO YOU MIND SHARING SOME OF WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED AS A KID IN SCHOOL?

>> YEAH.

ONE OF THE PIECES I POINTED OUT IN THAT PIECE WAS A BOY IN MY CLASS SAYING THAT IT WAS NATIONAL HATE ASIAN WOMEN DAYS, AND THAT WASN'T THE FIRST INCIDENT OF RACISM I EXPERIENCED.

THAT WAS IN SIXTH GRADE, AND I HAD BEEN EXPERIENCING THAT SINCE THE START OF MIDDLE SCHOOL.

LIKE I SAID, I DIDN'T NECESSARILY HAVE TEACHERS WHO OPENLY TALKED ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM AND HATE AGAINST ASIAN-AMERICANS, AND I THINK NOT HAVING THE KNOWLEDGE TO KNOW WHAT THAT TREATMENT WAS, IT HAS MADE ME VERY ANGRY GROWING UP.

>> Braude: UH-HUH.

>> AND I THINK -- YEAH.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, SHIRLEY, YOU SAID SOMETHING TO MARGARET E GAN AND ME THAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT TALKING TO YOUR PARENTS SAYING RACISM IS OUT THERE, BUT YOU SHOULD JUST IGNORE IT.

HOW DID YOU RECEIVE THAT ADVICE AS A KID?

>> YOU KNOW, MY PARENTS IMMIGRATED ORIGINALLY FROM CHINA.

THEY CAMEçó HERE AND SPOKE VERY LITTLE ENGLISH.

I WAS BORN HERE, AND FROM THE VERY GET-GO, THEY TOLD ME THAT YOU MIGHT BE BORN IN THE U.S., YOU MIGHT SPEAK PERFECT ENGLISH, BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE FULLY ACCEPTED AS AN AMERICAN.

AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE TREATED AS A FOREIGNER.

SO WHY FIGHT IT, WAS BASICALLY THEIR MESSAGE.

AND I THINK LISA AND KAMI CAN PROBABLY HAVE SIMILAR MESSAGES FROM THEIR PARENTS.

ALMOST EVERY ASIAN-AMERICAN I KNOW HAS A SIMILAR STORY, ESPECIALLY IF THEIR PARENTS ARE IMMIGRANTS.

BUT FOR ME, NOW, AS YOU KNOW, I HAVE MY OWN KIDS NOW.

I'M CHINESE.

MY HUSBAND IS KOREAN.

I HAVE TWO LITTLE BOYS, EIGHT AND 10, AND THEY'RE CHINESE-KOREAN.

AND THE FACT THAT I HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE TALK, THAT I HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT BASED ON THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, THEY MAY BE A VICTIM OF A HATE CRIME.

THEY MAY GET VERBALLY AND PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED, THAT'S WHERE I DRAW THE LINE, THAT WE CANNOT LIVE BY THE PREVIOUS GENERATION'S ADVICE TO IGNORE OR ACCEPT RACISM.

AND I GIVE A LOT OF CREDIT TO KAMI ANDÑi LISA FOR TELLING THEIR STORIES, PERHAPS SOMETIMES FOR THE FIRST TIME SO PUBLICLY.

THAT TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE.

WHEN I LOOK BACK, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, I'VE HAD ETHNIC SLURS THROWN AT ME GROWING UP AS A CHILD.

BUT, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE -- YOU CAN JUST READ THE COMMENTS ON MY STORIES OR THE TWEETS.

THEY ARE OUT THERE.

AND THEY TROLL ME AND THEY'RE MASOGONISTIC, AND THEY'RE THEY ARE OUT THERE, SO WE NEED TO STAND UP TO THEM.

>> Braude: LISA, YOU SAID SOMETHING INTERESTING, I THINK IT WAS IN SHIRL'S COLUMN -- BUT THE LACK OF SUPPORT AFTER BEING VICTIMIZED BY RACISM IS ANOTHER FORM OF RACISM.

HAVE YOU -- IS THAT THE RULE THAT YOU'VE EXPERIENCED, THE LACK OF SUPPORT?

OR IS THIS FROM TIME TO TIME?

>> UM, I THINK IT IS CONTINUOUS.

THE LACK OF SUPPORT I THINK RELATES TO THE IN VISIBILITY OF ANTI-ASIAN RACISM.

IT ALSO RELATES TO THE DAILY MICROAGGRESSIONS, THE COMMENTS, THE LOOKS, THE STEREOTYPING, THAT HAPPENS QUITE COMMON.

AND IT IS HARD TO HEAR FROM, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN THE SAME ORBIT -- IT COULD BE FRIENDS OR COLLEAGUES, AND THEY'RE DOING ALMOST THE SAME THING YOU'RE DOING, AND THEY'RE NOT SEEING ANYTHING WRONG.

IT MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE THINGS YOU'RE EXPERIENCING ARE INVISIBLE.

AND THEN WHEN SOMETHING BIGGER HAPPENS, LIKE, LET'S SAY, THERE IS THE TERMINOLOGY WUHAN VIRUS OR RACIAL SLUR OR SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE AGGRESSIVE, I THINK THERE IS STILL AN EXPECTATION THAT OTHERS WILL SEE THAT AND THEY WILL RESPOND.

BUT WHEN THEY DON'T, IT KIND OF REINFORCES THE INVISIBILITY.

YOU INTERNALIZE THOSE REMARKS AND YOU THINK THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU.

BECAUSE THAT CYCLE HAS BEEN LIFE-LONG, IT IS REALLY HARD TO OVERCOME.

I'VE OFTEN BEEN SURPRISED AT TIMES THAT I DIDN'T SPEAK OUT WHEN THINGS HAPPENED TO ME BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT IS THAT ADVICE THAT SHIRLEY TALKS ABOUT.

OF COURSE WE DON'T WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT GOES AGAINST OURçó PARENTS, BUT IT IS HARD TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT IT.

>> Braude: KAMI, IT IS A DIFFERENT TIME IN SOME WAYS, AT LEAST, I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO RACISM.

ONE CAN -- I CAN CONVINCINGLY SAY, AT LEAST TO MYSELF, JOE BIDEN IS THE ANTI-TRUMP.

THERE HAS BEEN MUCH MORE FOCUS ON WHAT YOU THREE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SINCE THESE GRUESOME MURDERS AND ATLANTA.

DO YOU SEE A SHIFT IN HOW THE PUBLIC PERCEIVES WHAT YOU WERE ALL TALKING ABOUT?

OR IS THIS JUST A BLIP ON A SCREEN?

>> YEAH, IT WAS -- I MENTIONED IN MY PIECE THIS WAS REALLY THE FIRST TIME WHEN I WITNESSED PEOPLE FROM ALL BACKGROUNDS SPEAK OPENLY ABOUT VIOLENCE AGAINST ASIAN WOMEN.

AND IÑi THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT WE HAVE TO SEE AN ELDERLY WOMAN BEING STOMPED ON IN NEW YORK CITY TO SPARK THAT CONVERSATION, BUT I DO THINK THAT HOPEFULLY, EVEN IN THE INDUSTRY THAT WE'RE IN, JOURNALISM AND THE MEDIA, CAN CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT THESE EXPERIENCES BECAUSE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN SAYING ON THIS PANEL, IT IS NOT NEW.

ANTI-ASIAN DISCRIMINATION ISN'T NEW, BUT OUR STORIES HAVE OFTEN BEEN BRUSHED ASIDE.

>> Braude: SHIRLEY, IT IS NOT JUST JOURNALISTS, AND I AGREE WITH WHAT KAMI HAD TO SAY.

OUR SCHOOLS HAVE FAILED US IN SO MANY WAYS.

I WAS TALKING TO THE HEAD OF KING BOSTON, AND DON LEMMON WAS ON THE RADIO AFTER HE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT RACISM, AND I PLEAD IGNORANCE ABOUT SO MUCH OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND IN THE WEEKS SINCE ATLANTA, I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE MASS LYNCHINGS IN L.A.

IN THE EARLY 1800s.

MANY AMERICANS DON'T KNOW THAT THOSE WHO WERE INTERNED IN WORLD WARñr II WERE AMERICANS OF CHINESE DECENTER.

THE CHINESE EXCLUSION ACT, VINCENT CHIN, ON AND ON AND ON.

THERE IS A HUGE BLANK SPOT.

AND I ASSUME IF WE FILLED IN THOSE BLANKS, THINGS MIGHT BEGIN TO CHANGE.

IS THAT ULTIMATELY OVERLY OPTIMISTIC?

>> THAT IS THE FIRST STEP.

WE HAVE TO EDUCATE OURSELVES AND BRING AWARENESS TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ASIAN-AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY.

RIGHT NOW IT IS THE PREDOMINANT ACT, WE'RE ALL COLLEGE-EDUCATED, WE'RE ALL WELL-OFF -- SOME OF US ARE, BUT SOME OF US ARE AMONG THE POOREST HOUSEHOLDS IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

SOME OF US DON'T HAVE A COLLEGE EDUCATION AND BARELY SPEAK ENGLISH.

SOME OF US NEED A LOT OF HELP.

AND YET WHAT THE REST OF SOCIETY LIKES TO FOCUS ON IS JUST THE FOLKS WHO HAVE MADE IT.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE ABOUT TALKING ABOUT THE ECONOMIC DISPARITIES, AND THE DISPARITIES IN GENERAL WITHIN THE ASIAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

>> Braude: SHIRLEY, STARTING WITH YOU, AND I WANT TO GO THROUGH ALL THREE OF YOU BRIEFLY, IF I CAN, DO YOU FEEL FEAR IN THE WORLD?

DO YOU CARRY THAT WITH YOU EVERY DAY?

>> I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION.

I WOULD SAY THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, AND I'M ALMOST A HALF CENTURY, WHERE I ACTUALLY FEAR.

AND THE OVERRIDING FEAR IS NOT NECESSARILY ME, THOUGH WHEN I GO OUT AT NIGHT, I THINK TWICE: IS IT DARK?

IS IT TOO DARK?

I SHOULDN'T GO OUT WHEN IT IS TOO DARK.

YOU KNOW, I WORRY ABOUT MY MOTHER, MY WIDOWED MOTHER, MY 71-YEAR-OLD MOTHER IN SAN FRANCISCO.

I TELL HER -- I GIVE HER THE TALK, DON'T GO OUT ALONE.

AND I WORRY ABOUT MY KIDS.

I WORRY ABOUT THEM BEING TRAUMATIZED.

THEY DON'T EVEN -- MY ONE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HE IS ASIAN.

HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HE IS DIFFERENT.

SO I WORRY ABOUT THEM.

I FEAR FOR THEM.

I FEEL LIKE I'M AT A POINT WHERE I CAN TAKE CARE OF MYSELF, BUT MY MOM AND MY KIDS, THAT'S WHERE I -- THAT'S WHERE MY KIND OF ANGER AND KIND OF "WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING" COMES FROM.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU, KAMI?

>> YEAH, JUST TO ECHO WHAT SHIRLEY SAID.

I THINK OWE I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THE YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS AND BOYS GROWING UP IN THIS TIME, ESPECIALLY IN PLACES WHERE THE SPACE IS NOT DESIGNED TO SERVE THEM.

FOR ME, I KNOW I WAS IN A PREDOMINANTLY AREA AND GREW UP IN A WHITE CITY IN INDIANA, AND I'M THE ONLY ASIAN PERSON IN MY FAMILY.

AND SO I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT HOW TRANS RACIAL THIS IS, AND HOW THE FAMILIES ARE APPROACHING THIS CONVERSATION, AND HOW THE ADULTS IN THEIR LIVES ARE TALKING TO THEM ABOUT RACISM.

BECAUSE I THINK WHEN YOU'RE SO YOUNG AND INEXPERIENCED, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT TREATMENT IS.

AND THEY'VE SEEN MICROAGGRESSIONS AND RACISM EVERY DAY REALLY AFFECT HOW ONE CARRIES THEMSELVES.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU, LISA?

>> I WOULD DEFINITELY SAY THAT THERE IS A CONSTANT LEVEL OF STRESS WORRYING ABOUT MY KIDS AND ALSO WORRYING ABOUT MY PARENTS AND MY FRIENDS AND MY COMMUNITY.

I THINK TO DEAL WITH THAT STRESS, WE TRY TO FIND A SENSE OF SAFETY.

BUT I'M FINDING, AGAIN, YOUR EDUCATION, WHERE YOU LIVE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS DON'T REALLY PROVIDE YOU THAT SENSE OF SAFETY WHEN YOU ARE SEEING THINGS IN THE NEWS THAT SORT OF SPIKE YOUR FEAR.

I WAS TOLD RECENTLY THAT IT SOUNDS LIKE YOUR ANXIOUS AND DEAL WITH YOUR ANXIETY.

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE FEAR IS ONLY IN YOUR HEAD; IT IS NOT REAL.

IT IS WHAT YOU SEE ON THE NEWS THAT IS MAKING YOU SCARED.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS, WHEN IT IS HAPPENING TO MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY, WHEN IT IS HAPPENING TO ME, I MEAN, UNFORTUNATELY, I'M KNOWING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE AFFECTED BOTH PHYSICALLY AND VERBALLY.

PEOPLE -- MY FRIENDS WHO ARE BEING THREATENED TAKING THE SUBWAY.

YOU KNOW, A FAMILY FRIEND WHO WAS LEFT BRUTALIZED IN NEW YORK.

WHEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN TO PEOPLE YOU KNOW, THAT ADVICE DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE.

AND THE STRATEGY THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT TO COPE WITH OUR RACISM, INCLUDING IGNORING IT, THAT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE.

I FIND TO OVERCOME MY FEAR, I NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT MORE.

I NEED TO BRING THAT FEAR INTO THE DAYLIGHT SO WE CAN ADDRESS IT TOGETHER.

>> Braude: I'M REALLY GLAD YOU'RE DOING THAT.

LISA WONG, KAMI RIECK, AND SHIRLEY, THANK YOU FOR HIGHLIGHTING THAT ISSUE.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO BOSTON AND TO US.

SO THANK YOU.

>> Braude: IN THE FIRST PHASE OF THE DEREK CHAUVIN MURDER TRIAL, WE HEARD EMOTIONAL TESTIMONY FROM WITNESSES WHO SAW IN REALTIME LAST MAY AS THE EX-MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER KNELT ON GEORGE FLOYD'S NECK FOR NINE MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS BEFORE HE DIED.

>> I BELIEVE I WITNESSED A MURDER.

>> IF I WOULD HAVE JUST NOT TAKEN THE BILL, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

>> HE SAID, "MAMA, THEY'RE KILLING ME."

>> Braude: THOSE GUT-WRENCHING ACCOUNTS ARE NOW BEING FOLLOWED BY A STRICT EXAMINATION OF CHAUVIN'S USE OF FORCE, AND, UNLIKE MANY PAST CASES OF POLICE VIOLENCE ON TRIAL -- AND, BY THE WAY, THERE AREN'T MANY -- THIS TIME OTHER COPS HAVE BEEN WILLING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEIR FELLOW OFFICER'S ACTIONS, INCLUDING THE CITY'S CHIEF OF POLICE.

>> ONCE MR. FLOYD HAD STOPPED RESISTING -- AND CERTAINLY ONCE HE WAS IN DISTRESS AND TRYING TO VERBALIZE THAT -- THAT SHOULD HAVE STOPPED.

TO CONTINUE TO APPLY THAT LEVEL OF FORCE TO A PERSONÑi PRONED OUT, HANDCUFFED BEHIND THEIR BACK, THAT IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM IS ANYTHING THAT IS BY POLICY.

IT IS NOT PART OF OUR TRAINING, AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT PART OF OUR ETHICS OR OUR VALUES.

>> Braude: THEIR TESTIMONY COULD PLAY A MAJOR ROLE IN THE JURY'S DECISION IN THIS CASE, BUT COULD IT PLAY A FACTOR IN FUTURE POLICE BRUTALITY CASES, TOO?

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE DIRECTOR OF ACLU MASSACHUSETTS' RACIAL JUSTICE PROGRAM, RAHSAAN HALL.

>> Braude: RAHSAAN, AS ALWAYS, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, TOO, JIM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: WHAT IS YOUR OVERALL REACTION TO A WEEK AND A HALF OF THIS SO FAR?

>> IT IS HONESTLY VERY DISTRESSING.

I APPRECIATE YOU REFERRING TO IT AS THE DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL, AND FOR DESCRIBING HIM AS AN EX-OFFICER BECAUSE I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT IN THE CONVERSATION, THAT IT IS NOT GEORGE FLOYD WHO IS ON TRIAL, DESPITE HOW IT HAS BEEN COVERED IN SOME RESPECTS.

BUT IT IS VERY CHALLENGING TO SEE HOW THE VALUE OF BLACK LIFE IS DEALT WITH IN POLICING.

AND I THINK THE TESTIMONY AROUND TRAINING AND HOW THIS WENT BEYOND THAT TRAINING DOES A DISSERVICE TO THE WAY THAT REGULAR, EVERYDAY POLICING HAPPENED AND CREATES THIS HARM.

AND SO TO BE HONEST, JIM, I REALLY HAVEN'T ENGAGED THAT MUCH WITH THIS TRIAL BECAUSE I KNOW ALL OF THE THINGS THAT IT'S BRINGING UP FOR ME.

AND FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD, A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE.

>> Braude: YEAH, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THE ONE THING THAT DOES SEPARATE THIS TRIAL, RAHSAAN, IS, AS I MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO, THERE ARE A SERIES OF COPS, CURRENTLY COPS, WHO ARE WILLING TO BREAK THAT SO-CALLED BLUE WALL OF SILENCE, WHO HAVE TESTIFIED IN VERY GRAPHIC, HONEST DETAIL ABOUT HOW CHAUVIN CROSSED THE LINE AND THEN SOME.

IS THAT -- IS THIS AB ABBORATIONAL OR A CRACK IN THE WALL?

>> I'M HOPING IT IS A CRACK IN THE WAUM.

ISWALL.IS IT A SIGN THAT THE POLICE AND THE CHIEF OF POLICE ARE WILLING TO TESTIFY AGAINST A FORMER OFFICER?

YES.

I THINK IT IS A SHIFT THAT HAS OCCURRED IN OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE POLICE'S ROLE AND DUTY FOR THOSE THEY HAVE SWORN TO PROTECT AND SERVE.

IT IS EASY FOR THEM TO COME OUT AND TESTIFY AGAIN DEREK CHAUVIN BECAUSE HE WENT SO FAR.

BUT IT IS THOSE THINGS THAT ARE WITHIN THE VEIL THAT THEY'RE AUTHORIZED TO DO THAT DON'T RECEIVE THE SAME RESULT OF SCRUTINY AND CRITICISM.

>> Braude: I THINK A LOT ABOUT THIS, BUT I HAVE NO IDEA WHY COPS ARE NOT WILLING TO EXPOSE THE BAD COPS BECAUSE IN MY ESTIMATION, IT PROVIDES THEM GREATER ABILITY TO CELEBRATE THE GOOD COPS.

THE EXAMPLE I'LL GIVE YOU THAT WE TALK A LOT ABOUT ON THE SHOW, IS AFTER THE D.A.

HERE DECIDED SEVERAL YEARS AGO, THE INTERIM D.A., NOT TO HAVE ANOTHER MURDER TRIAL OF SEAN ELLIS, THE THEN TOP COP IN BOSTON WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO SAY BUT HE IS STILL GUILTY, DESPITE THE EVIDENCE THERE WAS A CORRUPT COP IN EVERY CORNER OF THE ROOM.

THE SAME THING A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, WHEN RACHEL ROLLINS DECIDED SHE WOULD AGREE TO A NEW TRIAL AND THEN DISMISS CHARGES ON THE REMAINING WEAPONS CONVICTION IN THE SEAN ELLIS CASE.

AGAIN, THE ACTING TOP COP IN BOSTON WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO SAY GUILTY AS CHARGED, DESPITE THE UNCONTROVERTED, UNCONTRADICTED EVIDENCE OF CORRUPTION ON THE PART OF ALL OF THE COPS INVOLVED IN THIS CASE.

SO WHAT EXPLAINS THIS?

>> I THINK THERE IS A BELIEF WITHIN LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT THEY ARE BEYOND REPROACH, EVEN THOUGH THEY SAY THAT THE BAD COPS MAKE IT HARDER FOR THE GOOD COPS TO DO THEIR JOB.

ANY SHOW OF WEAKNESS OR VULNERABILITY TO THAT CRITIQUE OR CRITICISM SUBJECTS THEM, FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, TO FURTHER SCRUTINY.

I THINK IT IS A COMMENTARY ON THE WAY THAT POLICING HAPPENS OVERWHELMINGLY IN POOR COMMUNITIES AND COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

THAT'S WHY THE ACLU HAS PUSHED SO HARD FOR GREATER POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY.

WHETHER IT IS POLICE DESERTDE-CERTIFICATION SYSTEM, KNOW IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ON ITS OWN.

>> Braude: A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, ROSA BUSHES BURKE WROTE "TANGLE UP IN BLUE," AND SHE DECIDED TO BECOME A COP.

IN D.C. YOU CAN VOLUNTEER AND GET THE SAME TRAINING THAT OTHER FULL-TIME OFFICERS GET, AND YOU CAN SERVE A DAY A MONTH OR A DAY A WEEK.

WHAT SHE SAID SURPRISED HER THAT THERE WAS NOT A DAY THAT WENT BY IN TRAINING IN WHICH COPS WERE NOT TOLD THAT THEY'RE AT RISK EVERY SINGLE MINUTE WHICH SHE THINKS EXPLAINS, IN PART, WHY THEY SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER IN MORE CASES THAN ONE WOULD HOPE.

THERE WAS NOT ONE WORD IN ALL OF THE TRAINING, NOT ONE WORD ABOUT RACISM IN POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH WHEN I HEARD THAT, IT SORT OF EXPLAINS A HUGE AMOUNT TO ME.

AT THE SAME TIME, I SAY HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE IN 2021?

>> AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE SAO SEE THERE ARE PEOPLE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO COME OUT AND SAY THERE ARE BAD COPS, BUT THERE IS NOT STRUCTURAL RACISM OR SYSTEMIC RACISM THROUGHOUT THE DEPARTMENT, AND THAT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE LACK OF A WILLINGNESS TO ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE CONCERNS, THE DISPARITIES ON WHO GETS ARRESTED, WHO GETS STOPPED, WHO IS DISCIPLINED WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

AND TO SAY THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM DOESN'T EXIST IS TURNING A BLIND EYE TO THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE BAKED IN TO HOW POLICING HAPPENS.

>> Braude: BACK HOME HERE, WILL THE REFORM, ALBEIT IMPERFECT, ON THE STATE LEVEL AND THE CITY OF BOSTON, ASSUMING IT IS IMPLEMENTED AS WRITTEN, WILL THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE HERE?

>> YOU KNOW, THE ACLU IS HOPEFUL IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

LIKE YOU SAID, THE POST-COMMISSIONER WILL BE ABLE TO LICENSE OR DE-LICENSE OR DE-CERTIFY POLICE OFFICERS.

WE'RE HOPING TO SEE THAT COME ONLINE.

I THINK THE NEW USE OF FORCE STANDARDS WILL BE A CRITICAL FACTOR IN HOLDING OFFICERS TO ACCOUNT AND THE DUTY TO INTERVENE.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH DEREK CHAUVIN.

HE HAD OTHER OFFICERS STANDING BY WATCHING HIM CROSS THE LINE AND NOT DOÑi ANYTHING.

MASSACHUSETTS HAS CHANGED THAT TO MAKE OFFICERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THEIR FELLOW OFFICERS.

AND SO HOPEFULLY YOU BEGIN TO SEE A SHIFT.

BUT UNTIL WE REDUCE THE FOOTPRINT OF POLICING AND INVEST IN COMMUNITY RESOURCES THAT ADDRESS THE UNDERLYING NEEDS, WE'LL STILL SEE THESE TYPES OF SITUATIONS.

>> Braude: BEFORE WE GET TO THAT PLACE IN THE LAST MINUTE, WILL THE VERDICT IN THIS CASE HAVE AN IMPACT ON POLICING AROUND THE COUNTRY, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THAT VERDICT IS?

>> I DON'T THINK SO, HONESTLY.

BECAUSE THIS IS ONE OF THOSE EXAMPLES WHERE IT WAS SO CLEAR BEYOND THE BOUNDS AND BEYOND THE POLICY.

I HOPE THAT IT WILL.

I HOPE THAT IT WILL MAKE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS THINK TWICE ABOUT HOW THEY CONDUCT THEIR JOB.

BUT THE REALITY IS UNTIL WE START GETTING WITHIN THE MARGINS OF DAY TO DAY POLICING THAT LEADS TO THOSE TYPES OF DEATH, POLICE ARE GOING TO STILL CONDUCT THEMSELVES IN THE SAME WAY.

>> Braude: RAHSAAN HALL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK AND YOUR TIME.

ALWAYS GOOD TO TALK TO YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, JIM.

>> Braude: AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SENDING IN DURING THESE PANDEMIC TIMES.

BOB SENT IN THIS BEAUTIFUL NATURE PHOTO HE TOOK OF A SCARLET TANAGER BIRD ON CAP COD.

DAVE TOLD US HIS DOG, DAISY, IS LONELY NOW THAT HIS DAUGHTER IS BACK TO IN-PERSON LEARNING.

LISA SAYS SHE WAS MISSING LIVE MUSIC AND FOUND THIS GRAFFITI BAND IN SOMERVILLE THAT WAS ROCKIN'.

AND, LASTLY, ROBERT SAYS THIS SQUIRREL COMMANDEERED HIS PATIO CHAIR FOR HIS pLUNCH.

I THINK YOU'VE MADE A NEW FRIEND THERE, ROBERT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR SENDING THOSE IN.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE TO SHARE WITH US, USE THE ADDRESSES ON YOUR SCREEN.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

HARVARD MEDICINE'S DR. VANESSA KERRY JOINS ME ON THE DEVASTATING TOLL OF COVID AROUND THE WORLD AND THE STUNNING REPORT THAT'S FOUND THAT A HEALTH WORKER DIES FROM THE DISEASE EVERY 30 MINUTES.

PLUS, THE FILMMAKERS BEHIND A NEW NETFLIX DOCUSERIES ON THE BIGGEST ART HEIST THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN, THE 1990 ROBBERY OF THE ISABELLA STEWART GARDNER MUSEUM, STILL UNSOLVED 30 YEARS LATER.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org