WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE IS DESPERATE.

SPEAKER JOHNSON HAS NOW SAT ON HIS HANDS FOR 55 DAYS.

>> ALL EYES ON WASHINGTON AS CONGRESS DECIDES WHETHER TO TURN THE KEY ON AID TO UKRAINE AND NOW ALSO ISRAEL.

I SPEAK TO WENDY SHERMAN WHO RECENTLY STEPPED DOWN AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE.

THEN -- AID DELIVERY TURNED DEADLY.

WE BRING YOU A DETAILED INVESTIGATION INTO THE FEBRUARY KILLING OF MORE THAN 100 STARVING PALESTINIANS RUSHING TO GET FOOD IN GAZA.

THEN -- >> HE KNEW HE WAS SORT OF A ROCK STAR SO WHAT DID HE DO IS HE PLAYED HUMILITY.

>> BECOMING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

OSCAR MICHAEL DOUGLAS TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY IT'S TIME FOR HIS FIRST PERIOD PIECE.

PLUS -- ♪♪ MAMA MIA CREATOR AND PRODUCER JOINS ME TO CELEBRATE THE GLOBAL FINOMNEN LAUNCHED 25 YEARS AGO ON LONDON'S WEST END.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

WHAT LEVERAGE DOES AMERICA STILL WIELD WHETHER IN ISRAEL, IN UKRAINE, AND BEYOND ALL POSSIBLE DOUBT?

AND IS IT AS GOOD AS ITS WORD?

THERE IS A RISING SENSE THAT THE VALUES AMERICA SAYS IT REPRESENTS IN THE WORLD ARE NOT REFLECTED IN SOME OF ITS ACTIONS.

IN GAZA THE ONGOING DEATH TOLL AND THE HEART BREAKING IMAGES LOCAL REPORTERS BRING US EVERY DAY HAVE PUSHED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION INTO CALLING FOR AT LEAST A TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, BUT THE FLOW OF WEAPONS FROM THE UNITED STATES TO ISRAEL HAS CONTINUED TO PACE.

MEANWHILE IN UKRAINE THE GOVERNMENT THERE FACES ALMOST THE OPPOSITE DILEMMA.

ONGOING PUBLIC SUPPORT EXPRESSED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BUT WITHOUT SENDING THE WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION SO DESPERATELY NEEDED THANKS TO INTRANSIGENT REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN CLEARER WARNING THIS WEEKEND, QUOTE, IF CONGRESS DOES NOT HELP UKRAINE, UKRAINE WILL LOSE THE WAR.

FOR DECADES WENDY SHERMAN HAS BEEN AT THE CENTER OF THE U.S. FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT, SERVING UNDER THREE PRESIDENTS AND FIVE SECRETARIES OF STATE.

STHURMEN WAS ANTONY BLINKEN'S TOP DEPUTY UNTIL SHE RETIRED LAST SUMMER, AND WE WANT TO WELCOME YOU BACK TO THE SHOW FROM WASHINGTON.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> SO, I HAVE SET YOU UP FOR SOME TOUGH QUESTIONS BECAUSE THE VERY REAL ISSUE OF AMERICA AND ITS LEVERAGE AT LEAST WITH ITS ALLIES LIKE, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL SEEMS TO THE SHOCK AND HORROR OF MOST OF THE WORLD TO NOT BE HAVING ANY EFFECT.

AND AS YOU KNOW A RISING CALL EVEN INSIDE THE UNITED STATES TO AT VERY LEAST CONDITION CONTINUED WEAPONS DELIVERIES AND IN MANY AREAS TO SUS SPEND THEM.

WHY DO YOU THINK THIS BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS SO LITTLE LEVERAGE WITH NETANYAHU'S GOVERNMENT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND BOTH YOU AND I HAVE SEEN MANY YEARS OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND FOREIGN POLICY AND ALL OF THACHANGES THAT THAT BRINGS.

I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS A VERY TOUGH JOB IN FRONT OF IT.

ISRAEL IS A SOVEREIGN NATION.

IT GETS TO MAKE ITS OWN DECISIONS.

YOU AND I WERE AROUND WHEN I WAS VERY HONORED TO LEAD THE NEGOTIATION TEAM WITH IRAN TO GET AN IRANIAN DEAL TO STOP THEIR ADVANCE IN NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND THEN THAT GOT OVERTURNED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO THINGS DO CHANGE.

AND ONE MUST PERSIST.

SO IN THIS CASE I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE TEAM ARE PERSISTING.

WE CERTAINLY WANT TO SUPPORT ISRAEL AS A SOVEREIGN NATION, AS A DEMOCRACY OF A SORT THESE DAYS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYONE LEFT WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT THAT WE NEED A CEASE-FIRE NOW SO THAT THE CIVILIAN DEATH TOLL DOES NOT CONTINUE SO THAT AID GETS IN SO THAT STARVING CHILDREN ARE FED.

ALL THE WHILE REMEMBERING THIS WAS STARTED BY HAMAS, A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, AGAINST THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

SO THIS IS VERY COMPLICATED.

WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY.

WE ALSO HELPED TO ARM ISRAEL AS A DETERRENT TO IRAN IN THE REGION AND TO OTHER NEFARIOUS ACTORS, SO THIS IS A VERY COMPLICATED SCENARIO.

AND I APPLAUD THE PRESIDENT FOR LAYING DOWN IN A VERY TOUGH CONVERSATION WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU THAT THERE MUST BE VERY TANGIBLE CHANGE FOLLOWED UP BY SECRETARY BLINKEN SAYING THERE MUST BE REAL RESULTS, NOT JUST STEPS BUT REAL RESULTS.

AND WE'LL SEE WHETHER THERE WILL BE OR WHETHER U.S. POLICY WILL CHANGE.

AND I EXPECT IF THERE ARE NOT REAL RESULTS, POLICY WILL INDEED CHANGE IN PRETTY DRAMATIC FASHION.

>> OKAY, THAT'S INTERESTING.

SO YOU'VE SETOUT THE -- YOU KNOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION VIEW AND WHAT'S AT STAKE.

WHAT IS THE DRAMATIC FASHION THAT YOU THINK -- IN WHICH YOU THINK POLICY MIGHT CHANGE?

BECAUSE LET'S JUST BE FRANK NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN TERMS OF NETANYAHU'S PUBLIC RESPONSE AND MAYBE IT'S EVEN HIS PRIVATE RESPONSE TO THE PRESIDENT ABOUT LET'S JUST SAY A COUNTER OFFENSIVE ON RAFAH WHERE MORE THAN A MILLION PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THE ISRAELIS TO SEEK SHELTER.

AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS DON'T DO IT, THERE'S A HUGE OP-ED.

IN FACT, I'M GOING TO READ A LITTLE BIT RIGHT NOW FROM THE PRESIDENTS OF JORDAN, EGYPT, AND FRANCE IN WHICH THEY ARE SAYING "WE WARN AGAINST THE DANGEROUS CONSEQUENCES OF AN ISRAELI OFFENSIVE ON RAFAH WHERE ABOUT 1.5 MILLION PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS HAVE SOUGHT REFUGE.

SUCH AN OFFENSIVE WOULD ONLY BRING MORE DEATH AND SUFFERING, HEIGHTEN THE RISKS AND CONSEQUENCES OF MASS DISPLACEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF GAZA AND THREATEN REGIONAL ESCALATION."

SO IN OTHER WORDS EVERYTHING THAT COULD GO WRONG AND COULD GET WORSE COULD HAPPEN IF THAT OFFENSIVE HAPPENS, AND NETANYAHU SAID NO FORCE IN THE WORLD WILL STOP US.

THAT IS, I MEAN, THUMBING YOUR NOSE AT YOUR GREATEST ALLY WHO'S ACTUALLY SUPPLYING YOU WITH THE WEAPONS TO CONTINUE RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, YOU'RE THUMBING YOUR NOSE THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD AT THIS POINT, AND IT IS WHY I THINK THE UNITED STATES ABSTAINING FROM THE LATEST U.N.

RESOLUTION AS OPPOSED TO VETOING TO KNOWS THE WORLD IS STUNNED BY THE HUMANITARIAN TRAGEDY AND THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN LOSS, WHICH, IS HEART BREAKING IS ONE OF OVER 200 AID WORKERS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR LOVES, MANY OF THEM PALESTINIAN AID WORKERS.

AT THE SAME TIME, LET NONE OF US FORGET THERE ARE STILL WELL OVER 100 HOSTAGES HOPEFULLY SOME ALIVE THAT ARE BEING HELD BY HAMAS AFTER THE MOST BRUTAL ATTACK ON ISRAEL.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYONE LEFT WHO DOESN'T THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE HERE.

THE ENTIRE WORLD IS SAYING WHAT WAS JUST SAID IN THAT LETTER THAT YOU REPEATED, WHICH IN FACT JOHN KIRBY AND MATT MILLER AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS SAID AS WELL, WHICH IS A GROUND ADVANCE INTO RAFAH IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTS.

WE DO NOT SUPPORT THAT KIND OF OFFENSIVE.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT HAMAS IS NEVER A THREAT TO ISRAEL NEVER AGAIN, BUT THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO DO THAT.

SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID TODAY THAT, IN FACT, WE EXPECT ISRAELIS TO BE IN WASHINGTON PERHAPS AS SOON AS NEXT WEEK TO TALK ABOUT OTHER WAYS TO APPROACH THE CONCERN.

>> YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY CLEARLY ALWAYS BRINGS UP THE FACT THAT THIS PHASE OF THIS TERRIBLE WAR WAS STARTED ON OCTOBER 7th, AND EVERYBODY AGREES PRESUMABLY THAT ANY NATION HAS THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE.

BUT EVERYBODY ESPECIALLY IN THE WESTERN WORLD ALSO AGREES THAT THERE ARE RULES OF THE ROAD AND THAT THIS ISRAELI OFFENSIVE HAS STEPPED SO FAR OUTSIDE THOSE RULES, THAT ITS GREATEST ALLIES ARE VERY, VERY WORRIED.

SO GIVEN THE FACT THAT MANY PEOPLE SAY YOUR BEST FRIEND SHOULD HELP YOU IF YOU'RE DRUNK, TAKE THE KEYS AWAY FROM YOU, DO NOT KEEP DRIVING, IF YOU WERE THE -- STILL THE NEGOTIATOR, STILL THE POINT PERSON AS YOU HAVE BEEN IN MANY OCCASIONS, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY EITHER TO THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER OR WHOEVER'S INVOLVED ABOUT HOW ACTUALLY TO FIX THIS?

WHAT IS THE WAY TO STOP THIS WAR AS IT'S BEING WIELDED RIGHT NOW AND TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVES?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT SAY THE DISCUSSION TAKING PLACE IN CAIRO THIS PAST WEEKEND WITH CIA DIRECTOR BILL BURNS MEETING WITH OTHER INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS.

TO GET A CEASE-FIRE THAT MIGHT NOT BE PERMANENT QUITE YET BUT COULD BE ELONGATED INTO A PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE IN RETURN FOR HOSTAGES COMING BACK TO ISRAEL, AND OF COURSE, IN RESPONSE TO THAT PRISONERS BEING LET OUT OF ISRAELI JAILS BACK TO THE PALESTINIANS.

THAT IS A CRITICAL STEP THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN HERE.

HAMAS SAID IT DIDN'T QUITE MEET ITS DEMANDS BUT WOULD TAKE IT UP AND RESPOND RESPONSIBLY.

CERTAINLY STRANGE TO THINK ABOUT HAMAS BEING RESPONSIBLE, BUT NONETHELESS I'M GOING TO KEEP MY FINGERS CROSSED THAT, IN FACT, THERE IS A STEP FORWARD HERE, THAT WE CAN GET A CEASE-FIRE, THAT WE CAN GET HUMANITARIAN AID IN, THAT WE CAN FIGURE OUT A LONGER TERM A SOLUTION HERE.

THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION HERE IS A WAY FOR PALESTINIANS TO LIVE IN PEACE AND DIGNITY AND FOR ISRAEL TO BE ASSURED OF SECURITY.

THERE WERE STEPS TAKEN ALONG THE WAY AROUND NORMALIZATION WITH ARAB PARTNERS IN THE REGION.

THERE'S MORE TO GO IN THAT ARENA, BUT I DON'T THINK ANYTHING'S GOING TO PROCEED FORWARD UNLESS THERE'S A FUTURE FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

THAT FUTURE HAS TO BE SUPPORTED BY A PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY THAT REFORMS ITSELF, THAT IS CAPABLE.

RIGHT NOW I DON'T BELIEVE THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS CAPABLE OF GOVERNING GAZA.

I THINK IT WILL TAKE A MULTINATIONAL EFFORT FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, AND OBVIOUSLY THE RECONSTRUCTION LOOKING AT THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU'RE NOW PUTTING UP, WHICH ARE JUST HORRIFYING, THAT RECONSTRUCTION IS GOING TO TAKE A VERY LONG TIME.

>> IT REALLY IS HORRIFYING.

I MEAN IT'S JUST -- AND ALL THE FIGURES SHOW THAT WHETHER IT'S THE DEATHS, WHETHER IT'S THE DESTRUCTION, THIS IS THE FASTEST IN MODERN HISTORY.

I MEAN THE NUMBER OF DEATHS AND DESTRUCTION AND NOW THE STARVATION, IT'S JUST NEVER HAPPENED IN MODERN WARFARE THIS AMOUNT OF CATASTROPHE HAS BUILT-UP IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

AND AGAIN, TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL MOST OF ITS ALLIES, OF COURSE ITS ADVERSARIES DON'T CARE, BUT IT'S ALLIES BELIEVE IT'S LOSING THE MORAL HIGH GROUND, IT IS ISOLATE, AND AS WELL AS CHUCK SCHUMER SENIOR SENATOR HERE IN THE UNITED STATES CALLING FOR NEW ELECTIONS IN A DIFFERENT WAY OF PROSECUTING THIS WAR.

SO YOU TALKED ABOUT IT A LITTLE BIT, SO WHAT HAPPENS, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN THE NEXT INEVITABLE ESCALATION COMES, WHICH IS THE TELEGRAPH RESPONSE THAT IRAN SAYS IT WILL HAVE TO MAKE FOR THE ATTACK ON ITS DIPLOMATIC FACILITY AND THE DEATH OF ITS INDIVIDUALS THERE?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD BE A PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE OR A LIKELY RESPONSE GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE?

>> I THINK IRAN CAN DO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

THEY CAN ATTACK AN ISRAELI OUTPOST, MAYBE NOT EVEN INSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF ISRAEL ITSELF.

IT CAN LAUNCH A CYBER ATTACK, OF COURSE.

IT CAN SEND MORE OF ITS PROXIES AGAINST ISRAEL.

WE ARE ALL WORRIED ABOUT, OF COURSE, THE NORTHERN BORDER AND A WIDENING WAR WITH LEBANON LED BY HEZBOLLAH, A PROXY OF IRAN.

SO THERE'S A VERY DANGEROUS ROAD HERE.

AND CHRISTIANE, AS SOMEONE WHO AS YOU NOTED HAS WORKED FOR THREE PRESIDENTS AND FIVE SECRETARIES OF STATE, ONE HAS TO PERSIST.

WE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE WHERE WE ARE.

I WAS LOOKING BACK THINKING ABOUT THIS INTERVIEW TO THE FIRST TIME I WAS ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF RELIGIOUS LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS AND NUDGED TOGETHER BY THEN PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON TO SHAKE HANDS AND ALL THE WORK DONE AT WIDE RIVER IN SHEPHERDS TOWN AND CAMP DAVID, HOW CLOSE WE WERE AND NOW HOW FAR AWAY WE ARE.

>> YES.

AND NOW MANY PEOPLE NOW ARE SAYING MANY PEOPLE JOIN -- FOR BOMBING THE 2004 CAMP DAVID BUT MANY PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP TO THE FACT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU NEVER WANTED A SEPARATE PALESTINIAN STATE, ALWAYS WORKED TO UNDERMINE THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

AND THEY'RE JUST SAYING, YEAH, I MEAN THIS IS THE INEVITABLE.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ONE LAST QUESTION ON THIS.

DO YOU ALSO BELIEVE -- I'M LOOKING FOR THE QUOTE HERE RIGHT NOW, BUT BASICALLY THE UNITED STATES APPEARED TO BE TAKING ITS EYE OFF THE BALL IN A MAJOR WAY, CERTAINLY OFF THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI ISSUE WITH ITS PIVOT TO ASIA AND THE IDEA THIS WAS A MUCH, MUCH MORE IMPORTANT AND STRATEGIC THINK.

FRANKLIN FORD WHO WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY, DESCRIBED BRET McGURG, THE SPECIAL COORDINATOR FOR MIDDLE EAST, AS, QUOTE, KEEPING THE MIDDLE EAST OFF THE PRESIDENT'S DESK AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

IS THAT A MISTAKE?

WOULD YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT KIND OF MEMO?

>> I DON'T KNOW IT WAS KEPT OFF THE TABLE ALTOGETHER.

WE CLEARLY HAD ONGOING DISCUSSIONS WITH ISRAEL.

WE HAD AMBASSADORS, BOTH INCREDIBLY SEASONED LEADERS AS OUR AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL, SO THERE WAS NEVER A LACK OF CONVERSATION AND CONNECTION.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AS MUCH AS, OF COURSE, WE DISAGREED WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, CONTINUED THE NORMALIZATION EFFORTS TRYING TO SAY TO THE ARAB STATES AROUND THE MIDDLE EAST THAT THEY, IN FACT, HAD TO DIG IN AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

I BELIEVE THAT PART OF THE REASON THAT ARAFAT DID NOT SAY YES AT THE END EVFR AFTER PROMISING PRESIDENT CLINTON HE WOULD SAY YES IS HE DIDN'T HAVE THE PROCESS OF THE UNITED STATES.

I DON'T THINK IT'S AN EYE OF TAKING OUR EYE OFF THE BALL AS A MATTER RATHER THAN HAVING A DIFFERENT STRATEGY, AND THAT STRATEGY WAS UNDERMINED BY HAMAS' BRUTAL ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th.

>> AND LET'S JUST SHIFT TO UKRAINE, WHICH IS MASSIVELY, HUGELY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS A MAJOR IMPERALISTIC POWER, RUSSIA, THAT'S INVADED A SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT, AND DEMOCRATIC NEIGHBOR.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THROUGH ALL ITS MORAL AND MATERIAL SUPPORT TOWARDS DEFENDING UKRAINE, AND YET NOW WE'VE GOT A COMPLETE AND UPPER BOTTLENECK, LOGJAM, AND CUT OFF OF THESE SUPPLIES BECAUSE OF THE CONGRESS.

DAVID CAMERON, THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND NOW FORMER MINISTER WHO'S BEEN IN WASHINGTON, THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TODAY WITH ANTONY BLINKEN.

>> I COME HERE WITH NO INTENTION TO LECTURE ANYBODY OR TELL ANYBODY WHAT TO DO OR GET IN THE WAY OF THE PROCESS OF POLITICS AND OTHER THINGS IN THE UNITED STATES.

I JUST COME HERE AS A GREAT FRIEND AND BELIEVER IN THIS COUNTRY AND A BELIEVER IT'S PROFOUNDLY IN YOUR INTEREST AND YOUR SECURITY AND YOUR FUTURE.

>> SO BENDING OVER BACKWARDS NOT TO OFFEND THE MAGA REPUBLICANS OR INTERFERE IN DOMESTIC POLICY, BUT HE DID DO A PIT STOP TO MAR-A-LAGO AND DONALD TRUMP.

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN NOW?

AND HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT WHAT ZELENSKYY SAID, WE ARE GOING TO LOSE THIS WAR IF WE DON'T GET ANYMORE HELP?

WHAT WILL THAT MEAN?

WHAT WILL THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> I THINK IT IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER DISASTER.

IF PUTIN IS ALLOWED TO SUCCEED UKRAINE.

HE WILL BELIEVE THAT HE CAN ACT WITH IMPUNITY AND THAT THE WORLD HAS ALLOWED HIM TO DO SO.

I HOPE THAT SPEAKER JOHNSON UNDERSTANDS THAT THE BURDEN OF HISTORY IS WHETHER HE WANTS IT OR NOT RESTING ON HIS SHOULDERS, AND IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WHETHER HE GETS TO REMAIN SPEAKER OR NOT.

IT SHOULD BE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR DEMOCRACY FOR OUR OWN FUTURE AS WELL AS THE FUTURE OF EUROPE.

NONE OF US WANT TO BE BACK FIGHTING ANY KIND OF A WAR IN EUROPE, AGAIN, A WIDER WAR IN EUROPE.

WE WOULD INDEED I'M SURE PUTIN'S NEXT OBJECTIVE MIGHT BE A NATO COUNTRY, WHICH MEANS UNDER THE ARTICLES OF NATO WE WOULD HAVE TO COME TO THE DEFENSE OF THAT COUNTRY, AND SO WE WOULD BE ALL IN WITH TROOPS ON THE GROUND IN A WAY THAT WE ARE NOT.

MOST OF THE MONEY YOUR VIEWERS SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT GOES TO UKRAINE ACTUALLY GOES TO THE U.S. MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX TO BUILD WEAPONS.

AND VERY LITTLE OF IT GOES TO SUPPORTING THE GOVERNING STRUCTURE OF UKRAINE SO THAT THEY CAN SURVIVE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

THE STAKES HERE ARE BRUTAL AND INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

I'M GLAD THAT FOREIGN MINISTER CAMERON, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF THE U.K., HAS BEEN HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS WITH ALL PARTIES.

AND I HOPE SPEAKER JOHNSON UNDERSTANDS THE BURDEN OF HISTORY IS ON HIS SHOULDERS.

>> YEAH.

IT APPEARS TO BE MAKE-OR-BREAK.

WENDY SHERMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>>> NOW, UNDER STEPPED UP AMERICAN PRESSURE MORE THAN 400 HUMANITARIAN AID TRUCKS DID PASS INTO GAZA ON MONDAY, THE LARGEST SINGLE DAY DELIVERY SINCE OCTOBER 7th, BUT CONCERNS CONTINUE TO GROW AS FAMINE IS SETTING IN.

AND THERE IS ONGOING FALLOUT FROM THE IDF'S ATTACK ON THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN CONVOY WHERE SEVEN AID WORKERS WERE KILLED.

SO FAR AS WE SAID SOME 200 HAVE DIED IN THIS CONFLICT, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM PALESTINIANS.

NOW, PERHAPS NO SINGLE INCIDENT CAPTURES THE TRAGIC VIOLENCE AROUND AID AS MUCH AS ISRAEL'S FLOWER DELIVERY ON FEBRUARY 29th WHICH TURNED CHAOTIC AND DEADLY.

MORE THAN 100 PALESTINIANS WERE EITHER SHOT OR TRAMPLED TO DEATH.

IN THIS REPORT OUR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER GETS ACCESS TO NEVER BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE TO DIG INTO EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

>> IT'S EARLY MORNING ON FEBRUARY 29th ON ALRA'SHEDE ROAD IN NARN GAZA.

THOUSANDS OF STARVING PEOPLE HAVE GATHERED HERE TO RECEIVE FOOD.

BUT AS THE AID TRUCKS ARRIVE, THIS HAPPENS.

THE NIGHT WOULD BECOME KNOWN AS THE FLOUR MASSACRE.

BY MORNING OVER 100 WOULD BE DEAD.

IN ONE OF THE SINGLE BIGGEST MASS CASUALTY EVENTS OF THIS CONFLICT.

CNN INVESTIGATED THIS INCIDENT, OBTAINING NEVER BEFORE SEEN VIDEOS OF THAT NIGHT, COLLECTING EVIDENCE FROM 22 EYEWITNESSES AND TRACING THE AID ITSELF ALL THE WAY TO A MUSLIM CHARITY IN THE U.K.

IT WAS THE IDF THAT WAS THEN RESPONSIBLE FOR SAFELY DELIVERING THESE VITAL SUPPLIES.

BUT WE FOUND THEY OPENED FIRE ON UNARMED STARVING PALESTINIANS AT CLOSE RANGE AS THE AID ARRIVED.

THEIR EXPLANATION FOR THE TRAGEDY USING THIS DRONE VIDEO WAS A STAMPEDE THAT CAUSED SOLDIERS TO FIRE WARNING SHOTS IN THE AIR.

THEY LATER ADMITTED TO FIRING SOME SHOTS DIRECTLY AT SO-CALLED SUSPECTS THAT APPROACHED THEM.

BUT THE IDF FOOTAGE ISN'T COMPLETE.

IT CUTS BETWEEN CROWDS SURROUNDING THE TRUCKS AND BODIES LYING ON THE GROUND.

EVEN THIS REVEALS THEY WERE FIRING IN A DENSELY PACKED AREA, LIKELY TO CAUSE SEVERE BLOODSHED.

CNN REQUESTED THE FULL FOOTAGE FROM THE IDF, BUT IT WAS DENIED.

HE WAS AMONGST THE STARVING PALESTINIANS AND STARTED FILMING AS THE TRUCKS CROSSED INTO NORTHERN GAZA.

VIDEOS FROM HIM AND ANOTHER KEY EYEWITNESS BELOW INDICATED THE GUNFIRE STARTED EARLIER THAN THE IDF CLAIM.

THE IDF PUBLISHED THIS TIME LINE SAYING THE TRUCKS ARRIVED AT THE CHECKPOINT AT 4:00 A.M.

THEY THEN CROSSED AT 4:29 AND ONLY AFTER THAT DID THE IDF FIRE SHOTS AT THE CROWD.

BUT IN HIS VIDEO FILMED 7 MINUTES EARLIER AT 4:22 A.M., GUNSHOTS RING OUT.

HE WARNS THERE'S A TANK.

THE IDF CLAIM THE CONVOY WAS STILL STATIONARY AT THE CHECKPOINT AT THIS TIME.

NEXT HE BEGINS FILMING.

IT'S NOW 4:28 A.M. AND THERE'S A BARRAGE OF GUNFIRE AND THE SHOTS ARE CLOSE.

ANALYSIS OF WEAPONS EXPERTS OF THE BERTH INDICATE IT'S HEAVY AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE AT AROUND 600 PER MINUTE.

HE KEEPS FILMING.

A TANK IS BESIDE ME.

WE'RE NOW UNDER SIEGE, HE SAYS.

MOMENTS LATER YOU SEE A TRUCK DRIVING ALONG THE ROAD.

WE SPOTTED TRACE FROM THE GUNFIRE HERE.

ONE CAN BE SEEN RICOCHETTING UP HERE, ACCORDING TO WEAPONS EXPERTS.

AS DAY BROKE, THE NUMBER OF DEAD AND INJURED THAT EMERGED WERE STAGGERING.

INTERVIEWS WITH SURVIVORS AT HOSPITALS AFTERWARDS FOUND SOME PEOPLE HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE UPPER BODY.

AMID THE DEVASTATION, CNN FOUND A CLUE AS TO WHO HAD DELIVERED THIS AID.

THIS BOX WITH THE WRITING OF WELFARE TRUST.

>> THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT THE AID HAD REACHED NORTHERN GAZA, AND WE WERE VERY, VERY EXCITED ASKED HAPPY THAT FINALLY WE HAD GONE THROUGH.

>> THEY RECEIVED THE TERRIBLE NEWS AS WHAT HAPPENED BY WHATSAPP.

>> I WOKE UP TO PHOTOS OF CARDBOARD BOXES WITH BLOODSTAINS ON THEM.

AND IT CAME AS A SHOCK.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS WHERE I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN BLOOD BEING MIXED WITH AID.

>> IN ALL AT LEAST 118 DIED THAT DAY.

WITH THE U.N.

STRUGGLING TO ACCESS NORTHERN GAZA, THE IDF ARE RESPONSIBLE IN ENSURING AID ARRIVES SAFELY.

DESPITE THIS, THE U.N. HAS DOCUMENTED TWO DOZEN ATTACKS ON PALESTINIANS AWAITING AID IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS ALONE.

FOR THOSE LIKE JIHAD LIVING ON THE VERGE OF FAMINE, IT HAS LED TO A DESPERATE FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL.

AND NOW THAT FIGHT BECOMES MORE CHALLENGING THAN EVER.

>> KATIE -- WITH THAT INVESTIGATIVE REPORT.

AND TO NOTE THE IDF HAVE NOT YET RESPONDED TO OUR QUESTIONS ON THESE FINDINGS.

>>> NEXT, WE TURN THE CLOCKS BACK TO AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY TO SOMEONE MANY KNOW AS AMERICA'S FIRST DIPLOMAT, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

A NEW APPLE TV SERIES "FRANKLIN" TELLS THE STORY OF HIS MISSION TO FRANCE IN 1776 TO SECURE SUPPORT FOR AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE.

ACADEMY AWARD WINNER MICHAEL DOUGLAS SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT TAKING ON THE ROLE OF THIS FOUNDING FATHER.

>> MICHAEL DOUGLAS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> HI, WALTER.

NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> YOU PLAY BENJAMIN FRANKLIN IN FRANCE BASED ON STACEY SHIFT'S BOOK, THE GREAT UMPROVISATION FOR THIS LIMITED SERIES.

AND STACEY SHIFT BEGINS THE BOOK BY SAYING IN DECEMBER 1776 A SMALL BOAT DELIVERED AN OLD MAN TO FRANCE, AND THERE'S THAT SCENE WHERE HE'S MOBBED AS HE'S GOING INTO PARIS.

WHY IS HE SO FAMOUS?

>> DURING THE HOMEWORK FOR THIS SHOW, IT WAS STUNNING WHAT THIS MAN HAD ACCOMPLISHED IN HIS LIFE.

WE KNOW ABOUT HIM AS A WRITER AND AS A PRINTER AND AS A PUBLISHER.

THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, LIBRARIES, POST OFFICE, AND THEN ALL OF THE INVENTIONS.

AND I THINK PROBABLY IT WAS ELECTRICITY AND THE FACT ELECTRICITY WAS FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD JUST WAS SOMETHING SO UNBELIEVABLE, IT WAS FROM OUTER SPACE, THAT MADE HIM SO FAMOUS.

>> DO THEY MEAN TO ATTACK US?

>> THEY MEAN TO SEE ME.

THEY HAVE IT IN THEIR HEADS I INVENTED ELECTRICITY.

WHO AM I TO DISSUADE THEM?

>> AND IN FRANCE IS WHERE THEY ACTUALLY PERFORM FOR THE FIRST TIME HIS ELECTRICITY EXPERIMENTS ON THE LIGHTEN ROD, SO THEY CONSIDER HIM SOMEBODY WHO SNATCHED FIRE FROM THE HEAVENS, SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN FUN TO DO IT.

WHY WOULD YOU DO A PERIOD PIECE?

I DON'T THINK YOU'VE EVER DONE ONE BEFORE.

>> NO, I'VE NEVER DONE A PERIOD PIECE, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE BASIC REASONS WHY I WANTED TO DO IT.

THE LAST YEARS IN MY CAREER I'VE BEEN TRYING DIFFERENT THINGS, COMEDY OR GREEN SCREEN.

BUT, YOU KNOW, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WAS LIKE, WOW, SO I DIDN'T LEARN MUCH MORE THAN WHAT I REMEMBERED FROM MY HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.

AND THIS WHOLE CHAPTER, WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT AND THOUGHT WAS SO FASCINATING.

WHICH WAS AFTER 70 YEARS OLD AND ALL HE'S ACCOMPLISHED AND FINISHING UP HIS WORK ON THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IN JULY -- FINISHED SIGNING JULY 4, 1776, AND SEVEN WEEKS LATER TOGETHER THEY DECIDED THEY'VE GOT TO SEND FRANKLIN TO FRANCE BECAUSE THE COUNTRY WAS BROKE.

THEY'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WAR WITH THE BRITISH.

YOU KNOW, THEIR ARMY IS RAGTAG.

THEY HAVE NO WEAPONS, NO SHIPS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO THEY SEND FRANKLIN TO FRANCE TO GET THEIR SUPPORT.

I MEAN I FOUND IT SO IRONIC THAT THIS NEW DEMOCRACY WOULD TAKE ONE OF THE BIGGEST MONARCHIES IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO SUPPORT THEM.

AND THAT'S THE ONE QUESTION I'M GOING TO HAVE FOR YOU.

HOW DID HE EVEN IMAGINE HE WAS GOING TO SUCCEED?

AND AS STACEY'S BOOK TITLE SAYS "THE GREAT IMPROVISATION," BUT ALL HE'S ACHIEVE HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO.

SO HE TOOK HIS GRANDSON WHO HE SORT OF NURTURED WITH HIM TO TEMPLE.

AND SIX WEEKS AFTER THE DECLARATION HE'S TAKING A TWO-MONTH TRIP ACROSS THE SEA TO FRANCE TO TRY TO WOO THE FRENCH TO SUPPORT THE AMERICANS IN THIS -- IN THIS NEW VENTURE.

>> WELL, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ONE REASON HE SUCCEEDS IS BECAUSE HE PRINTS THINGS.

HE BECOMES A PROPAGANDIST ALMOST, AND HIS GRANDSON, TEMPLE, IS HELPING HIM WITH THE PRINTING PRESS AS THEY PRINT THE GREAT DOCUMENTS COMING OUT OF AMERICA.

>> NOT BAD BUT SWIFT WITH THE LEVER.

IMPRESSION MUST BE EVEN.

WATCH.

>> I CAN PRINT 500 PAGES A DAY, BUT DON'T WORRY, BOY, I'VE GOT OTHER PLANS FOR YOU.

>> I MIGHT HAVE PLANS OF MY OWN, YOU KNOW?

>> SUCH AS?

>> NEVER MIND.

>> NO.

I'M ALL EARS.

>> WELL, I INTEND TO LIVE PLEASANTLY, TO HAVE AND ENTERTAIN FRIENDS AND HAVE ADVENTURES, TO RESIDE IN A HOUSE LIKE THIS, AND BE REGARDED WITH WIT AND AS A GENTLEMAN.

>> PERHAPS IT IS BEST FOR YOU TO LEARN TRADE AFTER ALL.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT RELATION WITH TEMPLE THAT I LOVE.

>> TEMPLE WAS SORT OF A BASTARD.

HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO HIS MOTHER WAS, HE WAS GROWING UP WITH ANY SUPPORT IN THE U.K.

IN ENGLAND.

AND BECAUSE OF HIS OWN CONFLICT WITH HIS SON WILLIAM WHO WAS GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY AND BASICALLY ALLOWED HIS SON TO BE IMPRISONED AS A LOYALIST, I THINK THAT PROBABLY THERE'S SOME GUILT IN BEN.

HE TOOK THIS YOUNG MAN OVER, WHICH TO BE WITH HIM -- WITH ALL THE STRENGTHS THAT FRANKLIN HAD, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CALL HIM A REALLY GOOD FAMILY MAN PER SE.

CERTAINLY I WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED TO BE MARRIED TO HIM.

BUT HE TOOK HIM OVER AND ALLOWED US IN THE 8 HOURS TO DO ANOTHER SORT OF SUBPLOT OF A YOUNG GENERATION, OF A YOUNG PERSON THAT HASN'T TRAVELED BEING INTRODUCED AND INTEGRATED INTO THIS KIND OF WILD, FRENCH SOCIETY, ALLOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE INVOLVED.

SO IT BECAME A GOOD PARALLEL TO WHAT WAS GOING ON.

>> NOAH DUPE PLAYS TEMP, AND I LOVE THOSE SCENES BECAUSE YOU WATCH HIM TRYING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT FRENCH SOCIETY, IN SOME WAYS A METAPHOR FOR THE WHOLE THING IS US TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EUROPEAN SOCIETY THEN.

>> IT WAS.

AND I THINK THE EXCITING PART WE HAD WAS NOT KNOWING WHO WAS ON YOUR SIDE.

OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A TREMENDOUS NUMBER OF SPIES THAT EXISTED ALL AROUND, A LOT OF BACK STABBING.

AND I THINK THAT FRANKLIN FRUSTRATED CERTAINLY JOHN ADAMS AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE FOR THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT WAS TAKING HIM AS WASHINGTON WAS STRUGGLING WITH HIS ARMY TO KEEP OUR IDEA OF DEMOCRACY ALIVE.

>> GEORGE WASHINGTON SAID THE GAME IS PRETTY MUCH UP.

THAT'S IN STACEY SCHIFF'S BOOK WHEN FRANKLIN GOES OVER THERE.

AND HE HAS TO DO SOMETHING WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT TODAY, WHICH IS SHOW BOTH IDEALISM AND REALISM, THIS SORT OF BALANCE OF POWER GAME.

SO HE'S VERY DEXTEROUS IN HOW HE PULLS THEM IN.

HOW DO YOU TRY TO CONVEY THAT WILINESS OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN?

>> WELL, HOPEFULLY WITH A LOOK HERE OR A LOOK THERE OR PEOPLE KNOWING HOW HE ACTUALLY FEELS ABOUT PEOPLE AND HOW HE TREATS THEM.

I MEAN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH -- IS EXTRAORDINARY.

I MEAN HE BROUGHT HIM IN LIKE THEY MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE BROTHERS.

>> YEAH, THE FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> YEAH, THE FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER, WHO WAS REALLY HIS POINT MAN IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT AND WAS SO SUPPORTIVE OF FRANKLIN, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH MONEY THEY WEREIBLE TO GET.

THE OTHER THING THAT, YOU KNOW, REALLY STRUCK HOME WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT HIM BEING 70 WHEN HE FIRST ARRIVES IN 1800 THE AVERAGE AGE FOR AN AMERICAN WAS 39 YEARS OLD.

SO FRANKLIN WAS ALREADY 70.

I SAY HE MADE JOE BIDEN LOOK REALLY GOOD IN MY OPINION.

I MEAN FOR HIM TO TAKE ON ALL THIS AT THAT AGE AND WITH THE GOUT WAS VERY IMPRESSIVE.

AND I THINK JUST THE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND HIS ABILITY TO READ PEOPLE, JUST TO KIND OF GET A SENSE OF WHO THEY ARE.

AND HIS WILLINGNESS TO SEEM VERY ACCESSIBLE.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE NOT THREATENED BY HIM.

HE MAY BE FAMOUS AND A FAMOUS STAR, BUT HE BROUGHT EVERYBODY IN AND IT WAS HIS KIND OF VULNERABILITY.

I THINK IT WAS A GREAT PERFORMANCE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S NECESSARILY WHO HE WAS, BUT IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING EFFORTS I COULD EVER BELIEVE THAT WHY THIS MONARCHY ENDS UP SUPPORTING A DEMOCRACY.

AND I MUST SAY -- YOU KNOW THIS BETTER THAN ME -- IT WASN'T SOON AFTER THIS.

I DON'T KNOW IF HE TOTALLY BANKROLLED THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT A FEW YEARS LATER WHEN WE HAVE THE FRENCH REVOLUTION.

IT'S ANOTHER AREA WHERE HE PLAYED A KEY PART I THINK.

>> AND FRANKLIN WHEN HE ARRIVES HE DOESN'T WEAR A WIG.

SHE SOMETIMES WEARS A FUR CAP AS IF HE'S A BACK WOODSMAN.

AND YOU PORTRAY HIM VERY WELL AS IF HE'S HAVING A COMMON TOUCH BUT ALSO PRETENDING TO HAVE A COMMON TOUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR GETTING THAT, WALTER.

YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS REALLY FASCINATED ABOUT WHERE HE WAS WITH HIS PRESENCE.

HE KNEW HE WAS SORT OF A ROCK STAR, SO WHAT DID HE DO IS HE PLAYED HUMILITY.

AND ESPECIALLY I THOUGHT IT WORKED OUT SO WELL.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT PRODUCTION-WISE THAT I LOVE ABOUT THE PICTURE IS THE EXTRAS.

I MEAN WE'RE HAVING 4, 500 EXTRAS OF THE COURT ALL IN FULL WIGS AND UNBELIEVABLE COSTUMES.

AND IT REALLY -- IT REALLY HELPED GIVE SOME MILLITUDE AND MADE HIM LOOK LIKE PLAYING A SIMPLE MAN.

I'M CURIOUS TO ASK YOU, TOO, YOU REALLY COULD SAY FRANKLIN WAS SORT OF THE BEGINNING OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

YOU KNOW, HE REPRESENTS A WORKING CLASS THAT COULD ACTUALLY FUNCTION AND MAKE MONEY RATHER THAN ROYALTY OR POVERTY.

AND THE CAP WAS SORT OF PICKED UP BY DANIEL BOOM AND I GUESS DAVY CROCKET BUT WAS TO A SIMPLER TIME AND THE RUSTIC FUTURE AMERICA HELD.

>> THE OPENING HAS A THEME IN WHICH STATE CRAFT, DIPOLICEMENACY IS ACTUALLY STAGECRAFT.

AND THERE'S BEEN FRANKLIN NOT ONLY BEING A DIPLOMAT BUT PLAYING A ROLE, SETTING A STAGE.

>> TELL ME WHAT SORT OF MAN IS THE FOREIGN MINISTER.

>> WHAT SORT?

>> YEAH.

>> YOU SEE WHERE WE ARE.

HERE ONE NIGHT YOU MIGHT PLAY THE LOVER, THE NEXT A KING, AFTER THAT A BEGGAR.

BUT WHO ARE YOU REALLY?

>> YOU ARE WHAT THE RULE REQUIRES YOU TO BE.

>> WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER PERFECTLY.

>> I THINK YOU START IN THE BEGINNING AND YOU GET A SENSE OF THE CROWDS WHEN HE ARRIVES IN PARIS AND HIS NOTORIETY, AND HE CREATES THIS HUMBLE -- THIS HUMBLE BEING.

AND THEN HE HAD SUCH GREAT WIT AND A SENSE OF HUMOR AND A KIND OF IDIOSYNCRASIES OF THE SITUATION HE WAS IN.

I ADMIRE HE SEEMS TUESDAY BE A MAGICIAN WHERE HE BALANCES BOTH SIDE.

HE'S KIND OF EVALUATING SITUATIONS.

AND I THINK THIS SERVES HIM VERY WELL.

AS A MAN -- YOU KNOW, AS GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA FOR ENGLAND YOU HAD SOME IDEAS OF HOW TO HANDLE HIMSELF, BUT IT WAS REALLY FASCINATING TO WATCH HIM WIND HIS WAY THROUGH THE ARISTOCRACY UP THROUGH THE GOVERNMENT.

>> IN THE BOOK IT SAYS GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE A SIEGE, IT SHOULD BE A SEDUCTION.

YOU SEE IN THE SERIES HOW HE DOES THAT.

AND EVEN METAPHORICALLY HE HAS TWO OF HIS I GUESS WE COULD SAY MISTRESSES.

TELL ME ABOUT THEM.

[ SPEAKING GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> WELL, I THINK -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL I HAVE TO SAY, WALTER, THAT -- AND I APPRECIATED STACEY'S BOOK.

I'VE GOT A LOT OF INFORMATION OUT OF YOUR BIOGRAPHY ON FRANKLIN, A LOT OF PERSONAL, YOU KNOW, CHARACTER STUFF.

AND CONGRATULATIONS, IT WAS A GREAT JOB.

HE -- HE HAD AN EYE FOR THE WOMEN.

HE -- HE JUST LOVED WOMEN.

EVEN AT 70 YEARS OLD WHEN HE WAS OVER THERE, SO I DON'T SAY EVERYTHING WAS SEXUALLY RELATED, BUT HE LOVED TO SWEET TALK TO WOMEN.

MADAM WAS MARRIED AND HAD A MORE ETHEREAL PRESENCE.

HELVIV WAS A LITTLE MORE CARNAL I THINK.

BUT I WOULD IMAGINE JUST WITH THE KIND OF PRESSURE HE WAS UNDER THIS WAS HIS WAY OF RELAXINGP HE SORT OF LIKED TO EMBIBE, WE KNOW THAT, TOO.

BUT HE LOVED THE LADIES AND HE ENJOYED -- HE KNEW HOW TO SPEAK TO THEM, WAS VERY, VERY FRIENDLY.

IT WASN'T A QUESTION OF GOING ANYWHERE.

>> IT KIND OF PALLED JOHN ADAMS AND JOHN ADAMS' WIFE, ABIGAIL, BECAUSE THEY'RE IN PARIS AS WELL.

BUT THERE'S QUITE A CONTRAST BETWEEN THEM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT FRANKLIN'S CHARACTER, HOW THAT HELPED THEM.

THE FRENCH HAD NO REASON TO GET ON OUR SIDE DURING THE REVOLUTION.

HE ALMOST SEDUCED THE MAN.

>> HE DID.

AND THIS WAS THE QUESTION IN THE BEGINNING, TOO, THE HARDEST THING TO UNDERSTAND.

JOHN ADAMS SORT OF GAVE ME THE PARALLELS TO SOME THINGS GOING ON TODAY.

AND I WAS THINKING AS THEY WERE KNOCKING THEIR HEADS, YOU KNOW, WORKING OUT THIS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, AND YOU REALLY FELT LIKE TWO SIDES THAT WERE GOING ON, ALMOST LIKE TWO DIFFERENT PARTIES.

AND IDENTIFY REALIZE, THOUGH, HOW ALL THEIR FOCUS AND CONCENTRATION WAS ON THIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT, CREATING A DEMOCRACY.

AND WORKING ON THE SHOW MADE ME REALLY APPRECIATE HOW VULNERABLE, HOW FRAGILE THIS SENSE OF DEMOCRACY WAS.

AND WHEN YOU SAW THE TWO OF THEM GOING AT EACH OTHER, YOU ALWAYS KNEW IT WAS FOR THE BETTER.

IT WAS TO CREATE THIS STATE.

AND TODAY YOU FEEL LIKE MUCH MORE PEOPLE GOING AT EACH OTHER TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER RATHER THAN WORK TOWARDS A BETTER DEMOCRACY.

BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPERFECT SOLUTION.

I MEAN IT'S NOT AN ANSWER TO IT.

IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE EVOLVING.

>> WAS THIS FEELING ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND YOUR WORRY ABOUT DEMOCRACY NOW, IS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS YOU WANTED TO DO THIS?

IS IT SORT OF TIED INTO TODAY?

>> NOT ACTUALLY, THOUGH.

IT HAPPENED AS IT EVOLVED AND I WAS WORKING ON IT I SAW THOSE COMPARISONS.

THE SITUATION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE REMIND ME OF ENGLAND AND THIS NEW COUNTRY, AMERICA.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS.

SO IT'S IMPORTANT AS WE'RE COMING INTO OUR 250th ANNIVERSARY AT A TIME WHEN I'M MORE AWARE THE FRAGILITY OF WHAT WE HAVE.

AUTOCRACIES SEEM TO BE BUDDING UP ALL OVER THE WORLD.

DEMOCRACIES ARE AN ENDANGERED PROCESS, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT HELPS HOPEFULLY -- AS A SIDE NOTE WE'LL MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF.

>> MICHAEL DOUGLAS, THANK YOU.

>> LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING THAT ONE.

FINALLY, MAMA MIA.

IT HAS BEEN 25 YEARS SINCE THE HUGELY SUCCESSFUL MUSICAL FIRST HIT LONDON'S WEST END.

THAT'S A QUARTER OF A CENTURY OF AUDIENCES DANCING IN THE AISLES TO ABBA'S ENDURINGLY BELOVED MUSIC.

IT'S COME TO 60 COUNTRIES WORLDWIDE AND THERE'S BEEN TWO HIT FILMS.

♪♪ ♪ HAVING THE TIME OF YOUR LIFE SEE THAT GIRL WATCH THAT SCENE DIGGING THE DANCING QUEEN ♪ >> THE MUSICAL IS THE BRAINCHILD OF PRODUCER JUDY KRAMER WHO PERIDSWAD ARBBBA TO TAKE A CHANCE WEAVING A FEEL GOOD STORY INTO THOSE SONGS.

I WENT TO THE WEST END TO MEET KRAMER ABOUT THE 25 YEARS AND ASKING HER HOW IT TOOK A VILLAGE OF WOMEN TO MAKE IT ALL HAPPEN.

JUDY CRAMER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S A MILESTONE BREAKER.

EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO MEASURE IT BY.

WERE YOU SURPRISED IT LASTED THIS LONG?

>> OF COURSE.

I'M ALWAYS SURPRISED AT "MAMA MIA" AND ITS SUCCESS.

NO PRODUCER SETS OUT A WITH MASTER PLAN OF 25 YEARS.

>> WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE TO?

>> I THINK ABBA'S MUSIC IS AMAZING, EUPHORIC.

IT'S THE STORY, THE STORY A OF A MOTHER AND DAUGHTER.

EVERYTHING, THE CHARACTERS I THINK PEOPLE RELATE TO THEMSELVES.

IT STELES A STORY OF FRIENDSHIP, HOPE, SECOND CHANCES.

>> LOVE.

>> LOVE.

IT'LL BUILT SO MANY FOUNDATIONS AND THEMES, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT SUSTAINED IT.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE STORY BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST AS SOMEBODY SAYS A JUKEBOX MUSICAL.

IT'S NOT LIKE YOU GRABBED ALL THE BEST ABBA HITS AND DECIDED TO WRITE SOME LINES BETWEEN IT TO MAKE A MUSICAL.

WHAT DID YOU DO ALONG WITH YOUR FEMALE WRITER AND FEMALE DIRECTOR?

>> RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING WHEN I LEARNT IT ALL, AND THE WINNER TAKES IT ALL, MY FAVORITE SONG.

I FELT IT COMPELLED ME THERE SHOULD BE A STAGE MUSICAL.

BUT IT SHOULD BE AN ORIGINAL MUSICAL.

I REALLY DON'T LOVE THE TERM JUKEBOX PEOPLE HAVE USED BECAUSE IT'S PUT IN POPULAR MUSIC ON STAGE.

IT'S MORE OF A POP MUSICAL THAN ANYTHING.

BUT THE SONGS HAD TO EARN THEIR PLACE.

AND CATHERINE JOHNSON'S STORY DID THAT.

SHE PUT THOSE WONDERFUL ABBA SONGS INTO CONTEXT SO YOU CAN LAUGH, YOU COULD CRY.

THEY BECAME A DIALOGUE.

>> AND IT'S A DIALOGUE THAT RESONATES.

WHEN I WATCHED IT AND I'M SURE EVERY NIGHT IT'S MULTIGENERATIONAL.

IT'S NOT JUST THOSE OF US WHO REMEMBER ABBA WINNING THE EURO VISION CONTEXT IN 1944.

I WONDER YOU HAVE MANAGED TO HAVE THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH ABBA, PARTICULARLY THE TWO MEN, RIGHT, WHO WROTE THE SONGS AND WHO ARE THE MAIN BUSINESS LEADERS.

HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

>> I THINK TO BECOME PARTNERS WITH TWO LEGENDARY, TO ME IT SEEMED VERY ORGANIC AT THE TIME, BUT I HAD WORKED WITH THEM IN THE '80s, SO THEY KNEW ME SO I DIDN'T COME FROM COMPLETELY OUTSIDE KNOCKING ON THEIR DOOR.

BUT I HAD NO BIG TRACK RECORD, BUT THEY KIND OF TRUSTED ME, AND THEY KIND OF LIKED THE IDEA.

AND BASICALLY WE WORKED OUT A PLAN.

THEY WOULD GIVE ME THE MUSIC IF THEY WERE HAPPY WITH EVERYTHING, AND I'D PUT IN THE HARD WORK.

>> DID THEY JUST TRUST YOU TO DO GOOD WITH THEIR MUSIC?

WERE THEY EASY, DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH?

>> WE JUST HAVE -- ACTUALLY, WE KIND OF JOKE ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE I THINK THEIR CAUTION WAS MY DRIVE.

THEY HAD COME TO ME SAYING, NO, JUDY, WE CAN'T DO THAT, AND I'D BE LIKE, OH, OKAY.

SO IT WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE STARTING AS A VERY LITTLE MUSICAL, MAYBE KIND OF OUT OF TOWN ALFREDO AND WE ENDED UP OPENING 20 YEARS AGO IN ONE OF THE BIGGEST THEATERS.

NO, WE WEREN'T GOING TO DO BROADWAY, NO, WE WEREN'T GOING TO DO A FILM.

AND I THINK I PROVED TO THEM HOPEFULLY NOW EVERYTHING'S WORKING.

BUT THEY WERE VERY COLLABORATIVE BECAUSE, THOUGH, THEY HAD A SENSE OF CAUTION, WHY WOULDN'T THEY?

THEY HAD THIS INCREDIBLE CANON OF WORK.

THEY DIDN'T WANT ME TO SEND IT UP IN SMOKE.

>> FROM WHAT I READ IT COST 3 MILLION POUNDS AT THE TIME TO PUT ON, AND IT'S NOW GROSSED $4.5 BILLION WORLDWIDE IN 25 YEARS.

WHAT ABOUT THE FILM?

YOU'VE GOT TWO FILMS.

FAMOUSLY YOU HAVE THE GREAT MERYL STREEP AS THE LEAD CHARACTER, THE MOTHER.

YOU MANAGE TODAY GET SHER FOR THE SECOND FILM.

TELL US HOW YOU GOT MERYL STREEP?

>> WHEN IT CAME TO CASTING THE MOVIE THE DIRECTOR AND MYSELF LOVED THE IDEA OF MERYL STREEP.

THAT WAS OUR DREAM TO GET MERYL.

IT HAPPENED SHE HAD SEEN "MAMA MIA" ON BROADWAY IN 2009 SOON AFTER 9/11.

AND SHE LOVED IT, AND SHE WROTE TO THE CAST OF THE BROAD KAYSAYING SHE LOVED IT, AND HER DREAM WAS TO GO ON THE STAGE OF MAMA MIA, MUCH TO EMBARRASSMENT OF HER CHILDREN, I THINK.

WHEN WE APPROACHED HER SHE SAID I'M IN.

♪♪ >> DID YOU KNOW THAT SHE COULD SING BECAUSE SHE'S GOT A GREAT VOICE.

>> YEAH, WE KNEW SHE COULD SING.

YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO ASK MERYL STREEP TO AUDITION WOOZ WE DIDN'T ASK ANY OF THE LEADS.

>> AND YOU DIDN'T.

>> WE DIDN'T.

SHE SINGS AT THE END POST CAST BEAUTIFULLYCH WE KNEW SHE WANTED TO SING.

SHE SAID SO IN INTERVIEWS.

WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW WELL SHE COULD SING.

NINE SONGS I THINK SHE HAD BUT WE DIDN'T AUDITION.

THERE WAS A MOMENT WHEN BENNY WENT TO A REHEARSAL ROOM IN NEW YORK TO PLAY THE PIANO TO CHECK HER KEYS AND, YEAH.

>> HE GAVE HER AN "A"?

>> HE GAVE HER AN "A."

SHE WAS DAUNTED.

HE WAS REALLY DAUNTED, BUT IT WAS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT.

>> AND SHER MUST HAVE BEEN DAUNTING TO TRY TO GET HER FOR THE SECOND FILM.

>> YEAH, WE DEFINITELY DIDN'T HAVE TO AUDITION HER.

WE DEFINITELY COULD HEAR THAT VOICE IN OUR HEAD.

SHE'D SEEN THE SHOW 25 YEARS AGO.

I'D ACTUALLY ASKED HER WHETHER SHE'D BE IN THE FIRST FILM, BUT SHE DIDN'T WANT TO DO THAT.

BEFORE WE DISCOVERED THE WONDERFUL CHRISTINE BRANSKY, WE THOUGHT OF SHER.

AND CIRCLE OF LIFE.

HERE SHE IS IN THE LAST FILM.

>> ARE YOU GOING TO BE DOING A BIO PIC, A PROJECT WITH SHER AS HAS BEEN REPORTED ON HER LIFE?

>> YES, DEFINITELY.

IT'S IN -- YOU KNOW, IN THE WORKS AS THEY SAY.

BUT, YES, VERY MUCH.

AGAIN BASED ON TRUST, FRIENDSHIP, WE BECAME PALS AFTER THE LAST MOVIE.

AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S AN AMAZING LIFE.

SHE'S AN INSPIRATION AS A WOMAN, I MEAN THERE'S A LOT THERE.

>> CAN WE JUST TALK ABOUT WOMEN BECAUSE SHE'S OBVIOUSLY A WOMAN OF A CERTAIN AGE.

MERYL IS NOW.

IT'S REALLY AN EXPLOSION OF JOY BY OLDER WOMEN, RIGHT?

>> I THINK "MAMA MIA" WHEN IT WAS CREATED BY ME WITH CATHERINE WRITING IT AND PHYLLIDA DIRECTING, THE TWO GENERATIONS OF WOMEN WAS A JUMPING OFF POINT, BUT I THINK AUDIENCES DO SEE THEMSELVES, BUT I THINK IT'S BEEN AN INCREDIBLE VEHICLE OF ROLES FOR OLDER WOMEN OR WOMEN OVER MIDDLE AGE IN THEATER AND IN THE MOVIES.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE AUDIENCES LOVE BECAUSE THEY -- YOU CAN SEE THE FLAWS.

YOU KNOW, JUDY WATERS RUNNING OUT OF A DINGHY OR MERYL STREEP FAUMING IN LOVE OR OUT OF LOVE.

>> YOU DID PUT THIS ON OCTOBER 2001 AFTER BROADWAY HAD GONE DARK, AFTER 9/11.

DID YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD BE THE RIGHT TONE AT THAT TIME?

WERE YOU WORRIED?

>> OH, YES.

I MEAN IT WAS THE WORST TIME EVER.

YOU KNOW, WATCHING THE TRAGEDY, BEING IN THE CITY WHEN IT HAPPENED.

I MEAN, ALL OF THE BRITISH -- ALL OF US BRITS, THE CREATOR TEAM WERE THERE, AND IT LITERALLY HAPPENED A MONTH BEFORE WE OPENED.

WE WERE IN REHEARSAL.

IT WAS NOT JUST TERRIFYING FOR US BUT, YOU KNOW, HORRIFYING AND TERRIFYING FOR NEW YORK.

AND WE WERE KIND OF PARALYZED THERE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU DO?

IT SEEMS SO CRAZY YOU'RE PUTTING ON AN ENTERTAINMENT, YOU'RE HOSTING SOMETHING KIND OF SO FRIVOLOUS, REALLY.

BUT IT BECAME A KIND OF THERAPEUTIC TIME FOR THE CAST TO TALK TO PHYLLIDA LLOYD, THE DIRECTOR.

IT BECAME GROUP THERAPY.

>> HOW DID THE PUBLIC REACT?

>> THE PUBLIC IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY WARM FEELING.

IT SEEMED IN THIS HORROR THAT WAS UNFOLDING AND WE OPENED ON OCTOBER 18th, NEARLY A MONTH AFTER, IT BECAME A PLACE PEOPLE WANTED TO GO.

IT BECAME SOMEWHERE SOME WHERE PEOPLE WANTED TO COME.

WE HAD THE FARMER COMING, THE FARMERS AND THEIR FAMILIES.

WE JUST WANTED TO BE THERE.

WE WANTED TO HELP, AND THAT WAS THE ONLY THING WE COULD DO.

>> I WAS THINKING WATCHING IT THIS WEEK, WATCHING IT AND MARKING THE 25th ANNIVERSARY OF THIS INCREDIBLE MUSICAL IN YET ANOTHER PERIOD OF TERRIBLE, TRAGIC, AWFUL WARS AND WORLD EVENTS.

AND I WONDER IF YOU ALSO THINK THIS ANNIVERSARY IS HAPPENING AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE NEED SOME JOY?

>> PEOPLE NEED JOY.

PEOPLE NEED ENTERTAINMENT, LIVE ENTERTAINMENT.

AND HISTORY GOES BEFORE US SAYING THAT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THROUGH WARS, THEATER HAS ALWAYS KIND OF HAD ITS LIGHTS ON.

WEST END IS AN ARTERY, IS A HEARTBEAT REALLY.

♪ >> SOME PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE YEARS, YOU KNOW, THE CRITICS HAVE BEEN VERY DISMISSIVE ABOUT ABBA, IT'S JUST POP, IT'S JUST HAPPY CLAPPY.

BUT ACTUALLY THE LYRICS ARE VERY PROFOUND WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THEM PARTICULARLY IN THIS SETTING AND THE MUSIC AS A STORY.

>> THAT WAS THE ATTRACTION TO ME AND THE SONGS IS THAT THEY FELL INTO TWO GENERATIONS.

THEY WERE THE YOUNGER HAPPIER SONGS AND THE SONGS WE ALL DANCED TO, "DANCING QUEEN" BUT BIG EMOTIONAL SONGS "WINNER TAKES IT ALL."

AND I THINK HE WROTE THOSE THINGS WITH A STRING OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> AND THEY WERE MARRIED TO THEM.

>> AND YOU FEEL THAT YOU'RE IN, YOU KNOW, THE WOMAN'S PSYCHE SINGING THOSE SONGS.

THEIR SONGS ARE INCREDIBLE.

♪ IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND ♪ ♪ TAKE A CHANCE ON ME ♪ >> WILL THERE BE A THIRD FILM?

>> I HOPE SO.

>> WORKING ON IT.

>> DEFINITELY.

DEFINITELY.

THEY SAY NO, I SAY YES.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL GETTING OLDER, WE'VE GOT TO GET ON WITH IT.

>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH JUDY CRAMER.

REALLY AN AMAZING ANNIVERSARY AND A GREAT AMOUNT OF JOY AND BEAUTY YOU BRING TO THE WORLD.

ON THIS FAKE GREEK ISLAND.

>> ON THIS WE'RE IN THE MOTHER SHIP.

>> WE ARE.

>> YEAH, THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO SIGN UP WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.