Thank you for joining us for our authoritarians, winning with Ruth Ben-Ghiat at Rebekah Koffler and Steven Levitsky, moderated by David Corn Before we begin, thank you to our founding sponsor , the Kerry and Linda Killinger Foundation Hello and welcome to the Crosscut Festival.

I'm David Corn.

Mother Jones is Washington Bureau Chief and co-author with Michael Isikoff of Russian Roulette , The Inside Story of Putin's War on America and The Election of Donald Trump.

I'm also an MSNBC analyst and I write a semi weekly newsletter called OUR LAND, and you can subscribe to that davidcorn.com.

Today, I'll be talking to three experts on what is perhaps the most pressing issue that we face in the United States and the world.

The preservation of democracy if we can't protect our democratic institutions, it will be damn hard, perhaps impossible to deal with the other problems that confront us, such as climate change.

Income inequality Migration.

Pandemics and who knows what else.

Now let's meet our panelists.

Ruth Ben-Ghiat is Professor of history and Italian studies at New York University.

You can see her often on MSNBC and CNN.

My latest book, Strongman From Mussolini to the Present, examines how illiberal leaders use corruption, violence , propaganda and machismo to stay in power.

Sound familiar?

Rebekah Koffler is a Russian born U.S. intelligence expert who has worked with the Defense Intelligence Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency.

She is the author of Putin's Playbook Russia's Secret Plan to defeat America, as she puts it.

Putin sees himself as a modern day czar looking to restore Russia as a great power How's that working out and Steven Levitsky is David Rockefeller Professor of Latin American Studies and a professor of government at Harvard University His research focuses on democratization and authoritarianism.

He is the co-author of the bestseller How Democracies Die.

Here's a spoiler not with a bang, as in a revolution or a military coup.

but with a whimper.

The slow, steady reckoning of critical institutions Ruth Stephen Rebekkah Welcome Thank you.

Well, Ruth , Ruth, let's cut to the chase.

There's one authoritarian we care most about these days is Vladimir Putin.

Winning , he's he's certainly not winning in terms of what elites in Russia have provided him on, which is bringing prestige to the world.

He fell into the classic autocrat trap.

I think he he saw his power at its peak, and he miscalculated severely.

He didn't game out this war.

He did all of the things that autocrats I call them, late stage autocrats do.

He didn't listen to experts.

He's the expert and so the economy is in shambles.

He's revitalized Naito against him, so I wouldn't call that winning silly Rebekkah.

Let me turn to you.

Everyone wants to know what Putin's endgame is in Ukraine.

Feel free to tell us if you have a clue.

But more important, can you give us your best guess as to how he's thinking about what's happening with Ukraine these days?

Sure, I agree with Ruth that Putin is not winning.

If we were to define victory in the sense that typically the West defines victory.

He is militarily specifically tactically losing , and he must know that his military has performed atrociously.

The command and control is abysmal, and he is waging war effectively on civilian population, which is a carefully calculated, cold blooded , calculated part of military strategy.

But if you look at what his original mission was for invading Ukraine, which was at the core of it, was a purely military calculation, and that is to prevent Ukraine from joining Natal because the Russian establishment security establishment has declared Naito to be its top security threat , right?

The distance between St. Petersburg and the second largest city in Russian , I'm sorry, naval forces and St. Petersburg, which is the second largest city in Russia, has reduced from the times of the Cold War to today from a thousand miles to one hundred miles And so that proximity is what constitutes U.S. grave concern to Putin.

That is why if you drew the red line over Ukraine, that we are in a fight with Russia to control Ukraine, this is a vital part of Eurasia.

So in that sense, as long as Putin engages in a poor track, did grinding conflict, even if he has to put his soldiers into the wood chipper , as SecDef Austin said, which he's doing, he doesn't camp.

He is winning in the sense of achieving that mission, even though he's waging devastation , annihilating Ukraine and people and women, children , the elderly in that sense.

He's winning while making a laughing stock of his military among Western analysts Stephen, let's bring this home.

President Joe Biden and others have said that by helping President Zelensky of Ukraine and his fight in this nation's fight for democracy , we are fighting for democracy everywhere, including at home Do you think that Americans make that connection and then a majority of Americans even realize there are ongoing risks to democracy here?

Well, some some Americans, I think the view that we're in a global battle to defend democracy and that Ukraine is a is a major site in that global battle.

I think that's reduced mostly to academics, diplomats, the commentariat.

I don't think that's an everyday concern of Americans.

Americans are concerned a majority of Americans are concerned about American democracy, but for very different reasons.

In fact, polls show that Republicans are more concerned about American democracy than than Democrats are because the vast majority of Republicans are convinced that the 2020 election was stolen and that we have an illegitimate president.

And so America, I think Americans are mostly focused on on the state of American democracy.

They have very different views about what's wrong and what needs to happen.

So that's really interesting.

If Republicans are concerned about democracy, but they're concerned about it for false reasons, you know, based on you know, untrue premises, conspiratorial thinking , being led by a fellow with an authoritarian manner of, you know, what are the implications of that?

I mean, people on the left, people in the middle, other academics, you name, you know, your book Others out there always talk about how we need to protect and save democracy.

and ensure democracy.

But it's the people care about.

Most think that the way you insure democracy is by being on the side of an authoritarian who is trying to actually undermine democracy.

You know, we're kind down a rabbit hole there, aren't we?

We are.

We're we're in a mess.

And it's not the it's not the first time.

I mean, there are many, as Ruth knows very well Many authoritarian forces, many populist forces, many authoritarian movements that have destroyed democracy in the name of of democracy and whose supporters fully believe that they are, that they are Democrats and they do represent the people.

I think in the case of Republicans, in many of them, it's it's a it's not so much a matter of believing that the election was stolen, that Biden's an authoritarian but wanting to believe that the Republican rank and file is deeply distressed with the rise of multiracial democracy, feels deeply threatened and loss of the core white Christian base of the Republican Party is feeling a tremendous , tremendous loss of status in American society and has radicalized and to the point that that they are.

But in fact, they will tell polls that they're willing to go a long way to preserve basically the version of America that they grew up with, that they feel like they're losing.

So we have a radical Republican Party that's the great threat to American democracy.

and Ruth Ben-Ghiat on the basis of your work What happens when you know, here we have a two party system, but Republicans represent, you know, about a third of the population.

Not everybody's part of the party.

But if a third of a population, which is not a majority but a big chunk, if they're radicalized and they're on the side of an authoritarian who doesn't respect democratic institutions and is telling a big lie, what does that do to a country How do you know other countries have been in situations like this and have kind of gotten through it?

OK, And it's what does it do to a country It's legitimate.

You know, the kind of legitimate violence legitimate disinformation.

And one of the one of the saddest things is that a lot of and I'm not speaking about the GOP and all of the influencers and deep dark money backers.

But a lot of these people are just being duped because it's one of the oldest tricks in the right wing playbook to go after a freely elected sitting Democratic president and say he's an authoritarian and this was used in Chile before the 1973 coup, complete with truck convoys and supply chain shortages.

And there's all kinds of signs and people the people who Trump has around him.

Michael Flynn and Roger Stone and Bannon, they have a lot of they have decades of expertise in wrecking democracy.

But what we're seeing is you have the breakdown of the fabric of civil society and one of the smartest and most devastating things that Republicans have done is politicize schools and go to the heart of what people care about Families also what they call bodily autonomy You can't force me to have a mask.

You can't force me to have something injected vaccine.

And and so these are these are very these are ways that they've mobilized mothers that politicize mothers.

So you see that school boards and local city councils are now sites of hostility instead of community, and that's part of the authoritarian playbook you get.

You get people to turn on each other.

And there's many other things going on in society that are going in this direction.

It's very tragic.

Well, and of course, when it comes to bodily autonomy, they don't want to give you a ton of you when it comes to reproductive rights, but that's that could be another panel.

You know, Rebecca, we look at, you know, what's happening in Russia and the important role of disinformation there.

And really, it's sort of Orwellian disinformation in that, you know, there are Nazis running Ukraine.

We know we're not.

We didn't invade , they invaded us or they attacked us, and we just wanted to help people And we're just giving out food and candy and services And, you know, I'm not there, but I assume they were reporting indicates that a lot of Russians believe this.

And by this Can you sort of talk for a moment about the parallels between that and what we see here, which may not be as dramatic in that people say a war is not a war, but believing, you know, Trump's lies about the election or something like that?

I mean, we do see disinformation here playing know tremendous role in in our politics So I yes, you're absolutely correct.

A lot of Russians believe what Putin is saying because most of the Russian media is state controlled.

There's virtually no media outlet, especially right now.

that dares to critique Putin.

because he made sure that a law was adopted that any kind of criticism would be punishable all the way up to like years, years of jail.

Right?

I am stunned.

Actually, you having heard what I just heard My dear fellow Americans and I'll just go ahead and add the risk of being perceived as a pariah here.

I'm going to go ahead and respectfully disagree with what I just heard and read.

Please go ahead.

I assume this is OK because after all, live in America, which is still a democracy and democracy has always been sort of reliant on a plurality of opinions.

So first, if I may, I'd like to push back on the first analytic line that is democracy is the reason why the United States and Needle are now engaged.

And I'm sorry if I'm if you perceived that I would be putting words in your mouth, but effectively we're waging a proxy war right now.

Right?

There's a war.

It's not about Ukraine and Russia.

It's about a proxy war between the United States , nade on one side and Russia on the other.

Right in democracy to me has nothing to do with that for two reasons First, there's a long term bipartisan US policy that used to be highly classified, but now it is an open , and this policy states that the United States will do everything possible to prevent Russia from emerging as a dominant power in Eurasia, right?

And this is why we are supplying weaponry to Ukraine.

We are ensuring that they receive proper training.

All the way to supply real time intelligence because the United States is driven just like Russia by realpolitik motivations.

But it's dressing it up as a democracy narrative because that's what resonates with American public, right?

Democracy similarly , Putin is is lying to the Russian people, saying that his special operation is designed to denounce if buy into D.M.

authorized Ukraine.

He chose that narrative because he knows that his audience is more likely to to buy that OK, because having lost 20 million people, the Russians are allergic to not seeing them.

Fascism and all of those things.

So that's my first pushback Ukraine is in no danger of becoming democracy any time soon.

Just like Russia wasn't Remember, we tried that back in the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

We tried that than many other places, and it's failed , right?

So and the second thing I'm sorry for taking a little bit of a time.

I disagree very strongly The GOP at large is radicalized.

It's basically like only very small number of people that are potentially on the right who are radicalized Saying that the entire GOP is radicalized is basically like Putin saying that the entire, you know, Ukrainian military consists of Nazis, although they Azov Battalion that does have not seen ultra right nationalist element and was indeed incorporated in Ukraine.

And it's a very small percentage only just one one Thirty seconds or 20 seconds.

So two percent of Ukraine Younes, who elected Zelensky identifying with Nazis.

So it's a very small percentage.

So I disagree with that.

But I think the healthy discussions that we are having right now, it's a very important one because I don't recognize the country that I came to, you know, 30 years ago, when we are so polarized that we can't even have these types of very , very important discussions.

Thank you.

I know you want to want to say something, but I'll just say something first.

And that just to the point about the GOP being radicalized.

I mean, if you look at some of the polling numbers and the it's a majority of Republicans of self-identified Republican voters who say they believe Trump's big lie about the election And you know, I don't know what the number is now, but a couple of years ago, a majority of Republicans said they believe that Obama was a secret Muslim and was not born in Georgia or Republicans.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the numbers of Republicans and Trump has scored record numbers in terms of support among Republicans.

You know, you always a president, next president, always as well with his party.

But usually it's like in the 80 percent , 70, 80 percent there are people in your party who don't like you.

The other things you know, Trump after, particularly after he was impeached, had ninety five percent approval rating amongst Republicans.

So there is I mean, I think there's data to show that more so than in the past with either Democrats or Republicans The current Republicans are are fixated and affixed to Donald Trump as not just the leader of the party, but the reason for the party.

They're not, you know, they're , you know, it's not about principle ideology.

He's the he's heterodox, the hatred toxicol on some key Republican issues, whether it's trade deficits, whatever you , he has made the party about him, which gets, of course, to the whole notion of what authoritarians tend to do in politics.

But you know, Steve, you want to jump in here, Steve Yeah, I mean, a poll done by the American Enterprise Institute early last year found that I can remember it's fifty six or fifty seven, fifty six or fifty seven percent of self-identify Republicans believe that America America's way of life is changing so fast that we may have to use force to save it.

That's radical.

Freedom has an index what it calls an ill liberalism index, which measures party's tolerance of opposition, tolerance of pluralism, really basic democratic stuff.

Traditional centre right parties in Europe, the British territories, the Christian Democrats in Germany that the Conservatives in Canada scored close to zero on this index.

20 years ago.

And under George W. Bush, the Republicans scored it around zero point three.

This goes from zero to one, the Republicans quoted above point three, which is a little more illiberal then European centre right parties, but reasonable.

Not not that far.

Today, the Republicans are close two point seventy five, which is almost identical to fit as in Hungary, the AKP in Turkey and the BJP in India.

The Republican Party today is by a variety of measures, much closer to far right parties and authoritarian parties in Europe.

and Asia than it is to conservative parties.

Recognizable conservative parties in the industrialized West.

How that is not radicalization of entire party is beyond me Ruth, you know, can you talk a little about how we got here to this point?

You know, the Republican Party and I'm writing a book on this.

So it's on my mind, you know, has always tried to exploit fear and paranoia, whether it is McCarthyism in the 50s or they worked with segregationists of the Southern Strategy in the 60s, the Tea Party was, you know, full of crazy conspiratorial ideas about Obama implementing socialism to destroy the country so it could become a dictator.

They've always flirted with extremism , but they've always also tried to have a plausible deniability to it.

You know, to win it with upbeat language like Ronald Reagan's optimism and so forth.

But, you know, in the last, you know, four or five or six years, we've seen that's they haven't dropped that they they've dropped the niceties and they've gone full bore on Democrats.

The opposition this gets to Stevens Point is a threat to the country I get I get 20 emails a day from Trump and others.

The radical socialist Democrats want to come to your neighborhood.

Rebekkah your neighborhood and destroy it, destroy your neighborhood.

and your way of life that you moved here for.

And this is Biden, and he's being used by dark, sinister forces.

George Soros and all these others.

I mean, this is not just Alex Jones talking.

This is coming from every major arm of the Republican Party.

They've all fallen in lockstep behind Trump And it seems, you know, you look at this, I guess, from the perspective of time, Ruth.

You know, it's happened very quickly I mean, you know, does this mirror what happened in other societies that have gone in this direction?

Well, what's extraordinary?

I mean, it never is going to look the same, and that's why some people can can't see what's happening.

But there are certain authoritarian dynamics that Trump knew very well , and he came in and it's quite extraordinary what he did.

Because if you look at so Mussolini created his party or other , many of them, the successful autocrats were either they founded their parties or they were there for a long time.

including Berlusconi, who had a kind of authoritarian leadership in a democracy.

He founded his party.

So here's Trump, who used to be a Democrat.

He's an opportunist.

And he comes in.

He takes over this party, which was ready to be taken over because of the Tea Party.

And as you said, it's becoming it had become more of an intolerant party and what he added was the leader cult.

What he added was making people feel good about lawlessness, rewarding lawlessness and so over in a very short time , the whole political culture of the GOP shifted to what I consider an authoritarian political culture with.

And that's why during the 2016 election, which was a watershed.

What do you do with a political opponent?

Just because you have an opponent, you lock them up.

That's not what Democrats say, nor do Democrats say they're going to stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone.

That's that's what you says.

So the the frame of reference for Trump was with other autocrats and and so Trump He he took this party and he imposed this kind of authoritarian leadership on it.

And one of the most frightening things is not only that large groups in America became political enemies.

So you had older enemies like people of color immigrants, and he added new enemies, which are like the press , you know, the fake news enemy of the people And and but he also imposed an authoritarian discipline on his own party, where by the time we were at the second impeachment in February 2021, there were Republicans who voted to impeach him and they had to buy body armor because they and their families were getting threatened.

So this is not this is not what Democrats do.

And then the final thing I'll say is January six, the fact that this coup attempt happened and they didn't discard Trump on January seven.

What did they do?

Instead, they doubled down.

And this is has had a huge radicalizing effect on the GOP.

And indeed, the GOP released a statement that said they believe that January six was, quote, legitimate political discourse And the final point I want to make is Ron DeSantis.

I've been writing a lot about him watching him because here's somebody who was a Reagan conservative who when people like Trump come along , the system populates with imitators and they learned lessons of what what you need to do to get ahead in the new GOP, which is radicalized.

And so he's completely he's he's building his own little mini autocracy there , Florida, and he's no longer a Reaganite.

He's a Trump This guy even imitates his hand gestures.

So these are all big picture movements and developments that, in my opinion, show radicalization and what they call an accreditation becoming more autocratic Well, Rebekkah if if we're looking for any signs of hope about autocracy, not taking deeper root here in the United States, let's go back to Putin for a second And the war in Ukraine in the long run, you know, or even medium run.

Do you think he pays a price for this?

Do you think you know an autocrat can go too far and, you know, create a counter reaction that you know, that will not help him eventually?

So, so he is already paying the price as Ruth pointed out in the beginning.

You know, Russia is becoming a pariah on world stage, right?

Akin to North Korea, Iran.

The Russian people are bearing the basically the brunt of the economic sanctions.

The impact is really not on the elites.

Let's look at the oligarchs, OK, they're not going to have five yachts.

They're going to have to write.

And but it's the Russian people who are impacted by that.

So he is already paying the price.

If what you meant was, is he going to be ousted?

Is he going to be poisoned or removed?

Like you know, Senator Lindsey Graham suggested or President Biden, this man can no longer remain in power No, that's just not how things work in Russia.

In fact, Putin's popularity skyrocketed since the beginning of the special operation.

It's an 83 percent right now.

So yes, in terms of the whole , I strongly disagree when you I'll respectfully Ruth with what you just stated that about the radicalization.

Again, I'm not an academic.

I can't decide to use statistics of how many people view themselves as radical.

I'm a former intelligence officer.

I analyze eyes the blue force.

You know, I'm sorry.

The red force.

Rather, in order to help the blue to devise a strategy to beat them, right?

I, Putin is my target has been for many years.

I also a person who came to this country, fled the former Soviet Union more than 30 years ago, right?

And I see I am one of those people that you guys actually call radical.

And I look to you like a radical.

I support freedom.

I including, you know, freedom to bear arms that I'm a force of water Second Amendment because and I support freedom of speech and I believe I see the signs again.

My apologies for stating this , but I believe it's important to to to speak the truth here.

I see the sign of civilization of the American society.

My own kids in public schools were indoctrinating in the same manner that I was indoctrinated back in the Soviet Union.

My own mother used to tell me did not believe everything that, you know, the teachers are saying or what the Soviet state is saying.

I am saying the same thing to my kids right now.

Look at what is wrong with plurality of opinions, right?

Why do we have censorship?

Why do we have the cancel culture in all of those things?

People with whom I associate regular people not, you know, uneducated or horrible types.

I know many, many people who are normal, highly educated They are Trump supporters because they believe in freedom in this country, and I believe that is so important right now.

I assume you guys know, research my background before you invited me here, and I think I'm thankful you and I appreciate you that we're having this discussion.

But these are my beliefs.

If you want to go for it.

No, it's fair enough.

Stephen , you know, Trump incited a riot.

You know, he called on people and he did.

And more importantly, he did nothing.

What was happening?

I mean, I think that's the real tell here.

You know, he can get off with saying, Well, I didn't My words didn't actually say, go there and beat up and try to kill officers, you know?

But he did nothing.

He sat there and watched in the first person.

Accounts are that he even enjoyed it and thought it was good because it would help him with his master plan of putting off the certification so that he could try to rig the system.

But if you believe in, you know, the democracy you know is in freedom or sort of snickered , équitable, comparable or invested in Trump retaining power.

Right?

You can justify all these things.

And so we seem to be in a Venus more assiduous situation, right where people look at that and that as a threat to democracy other than look at it as a way to protect democracy And I wonder, you know what is you know, what is the way out of this sort of whole If you have such a black and white, you know, difference and working in a seminal event?

It's a seminal event because it was a it was an attempted coup against our democratic system.

There was a two month long rolling attempted presidential coup.

And if we as a society cannot write an official history in which that goes down, not as something that there are different views on, but rather an assault on our democratic institutions, an assault on our constitution , our democracy is in trouble.

Reminds me a little bit of the reaction to the the riots, the assault on parliament in in France in nineteen thirty four with a right sort of apologized for the for the for the riots and and there was never a real national consensus in defense of democracy in when, when, when there are coups.

One thing that we know is it is critical that the entire political elite line up and very clearly denounce and hold to denounce the coup and and hold accountable those who are responsible for it.

So what do we do?

The really the only thing that we can do is politically defeat the Trump led or Trumpist Republican Party , and that requires a very broad coalition aligned against it.

It requires a coalition that ranges from AOC to Liz Cheney.

It has to include the the sort of network of GW Bush Republicans who have been hiding under the table for the last six years, who in private despise and fear Trump.

But are unwilling to come out against him.

And it requires that that a wide range of politicians religious figures, business people from the left to the right come out and embrace the report of the of the Jan. six commission and denounce what was clearly anti-democratic behavior on the part of not only Donald Trump, but the vast bulk of the Republican Party We're going to get take some questions from the people who've been watching at home and I'll tell it to as many as I can, so I'm going to ask everyone to respond as quickly as you can to these questions.

And one question is what, if any, opposition leadership to overcome Trump?

Do you see within the Republican Party?

And I will say right now, none.

We're climbing Liz Cheney, but the Republican Party is trying to get rid of her.

We don't eligible.

Even with her, her election , she's being challenged in the Republican primary.

I think at this moment in time, the Republican Party is shot in the sense that it is just one hundred percent pro-Trump and we'll do anything that will follow him in any direction So let me go to the next question In your opinion, what is the endgame or goal for those who are publicly pushing us towards a theocracy?

Is it purely unchecked power for those people and groups Yes.

Let me give that one to you, Ruth.

You know, why do people want to be autocrats?

Why do you want to be?

I mean, I know it's good to be king.

It's competition us.

But you know, well, you know, where does the impulse come from?

Oh, well, I was I was going to say instead that there's a reason that the GOP is always trotting over to Hungary.

And Tucker Carlson did the extraordinary thing of broadcasting for an entire week from Orban to Hungary.

Because, you know, what?

What they want is a version of what we call electoral autocracy, where, you know, because today you don't shut down elections.

It's more rare You keep them going.

Putin has elections and then you find various ways to game the system.

You put rivals in in jail.

You.

You do electoral trickery And we have an assault on our election system at every level in the United States.

And that's we have very the reason this is so dangerous is that there's very old precedents racially motivated voter suppression, but there's a new interest in in this kind of autocracy And and Auburn is like the non Putin because Putin is a little toxic to some people, and Auburn is like the palatable autocrat.

You don't see people falling out of windows, you don't hear about these things.

And so they're all trotting over there.

Even Mike Pence, who's not a big global global traveler, he was over there for the demographic summit wish.

He was in fact saying that he hoped that abortion rights would end in our country.

He felt comfortable saying that in Hungary.

So, so that's that's going forward.

That's what I think many of them aim at something like that Moving on to the next question, are we seeing a split in the global order with China and Russia and India on one side and Europe and the U.S. largely on the other side?

Where do you think this is all headed?

Let me go to both Rebekkah and Ethan on this.

And so Rebekkah you go first.

But keep it brief.

Sure.

I don't think it's going to be fractured along the lines that the questioner stated.

Russia and China and despite the fact that they're trying to project themselves as the so-called strategic partner , I'm more of a marriage of convenience.

Russia fears China because China is growing economically, militarily and Russia is considering China threat number two after the United States and Natal.

So it's not going to be split that way, but they will unite to the point only to the extent that they can challenge the United States.

And Steven , I agree with Rebekkah.

OK, expand.

Expound.

No, we're heading.

Not not to a sort of new Cold War with the West.

The Liberal West lined up against all the people that we can, all the illiberal forces that we consider bad guys among themselves.

As Rebekkah said, there are intense rivalries and differences among China.

Russia, India is still is internally divided , is not really a coherent geopolitical player right now.

But what we're headed towards is a much more multipolar world with the United States is one power among many in which there will be important illiberal and authoritarian powers.

But you know, we're not going back to the heady days of the 1990s, but it's not going to be a bipolar world It'll be a much more fragmented one in which the United States is going to have to work out working relationships, partnerships, alliances with illiberal states as well.

And haven't we seen with that with the Trump years in the Biden years that if you look at the relationship between the United States and Europe, that it is not stable in the sense that it was a lot different under the Trump than it is now.

If Trump were to get back in office would be a lot different again.

I mean, there's been a lot of coming together over the Ukraine war, but you know, you mentioned Orban a few a few moments ago.

Ruth , there there are illiberal strains within Europe Indeed, that Europe itself hasn't fully resolved You know, so you know, the whole idea of there being a U.S. European bloc seems to me to be optimistic in the sense that they're going to continue to be differences depending on what the external circumstances are.

Yeah.

And the thing about autocrats is you have a deal with them until you don't have a deal with them.

They're there in terms of personality They're highly transactional and opportunistic people And I mean, Putin knows this from there's a reason you can't mention the Nazi Soviet pact in Russia right there.

They're not the most reliable allies, so I agree with what was said about China and Russia.

But you know this this new a pre, how would you call it a precursor to this invasion of Ukraine was when the national interest published a joint op ed unprecedented of the Chinese and Russian ambassadors to the United States, which then was followed by a joint proclamation by the heads of China and Russia.

And it was dripping with scorn for America.

And I agree that they are not going to be tight knit allies where each has to transactional and could turn on the other.

There's a lot of rivalry, but what they are united in is bringing America to its knees.

and that's that's by every kind of hybrid warfare tool possible.

And so that's that's sobering Let me go around the horn and ask everybody Because, you know, this is a pretty heavy and somewhat discouraging topic for something that you would you can have a very loose definition of this that you count as good news or maybe just a wee bit encouraging or slightly in terms of what's happening with democracy here, what's happening with the war in Ukraine or Russia if you want to focus on Putin?

Rebekkah But something that you see out there that you know, might lead you to not give up all hope.

Steve, what, Steven?

Why don't you start Look, first of all, I don't I don't think the authoritarians are winning in the first place I mean, nobody asked me this question, but it's basically been.

It's been a draw the last 15 years or so.

Autocrats win.

Some days they win some elections.

They they they take power in some places, they lose power in other places.

And so I don't I don't think that's going to continue for a while.

I don't think we're going to see a dramatic turn in either direction.

So we have to take small victories by Biden's victory in 2020. was was huge.

Macron's victory in France was very important.

I do think, I mean, it's very, very it's difficult to just to try to game out the longer term consequences of a major war like we're seeing in Russia.

And I study political parties in Argentina.

So I'm the last one who should do it.

But Putin's failures and and are are are are going to be or are a plus for for liberal Democrats.

I mean, it is if we were in a in a foggy , low confidence period where the West is wringing its hands about the failures and limitations of democracy, we just got a really good case as Ruth let off with a of of why it's often perilous to live under autocracy.

And that's a that's a positive blow for the liberal West Rebekkah So the fact itself that I'm invited on your show on is gives me hope.

This is the second time that I'm having this kind of experience.

First time I was about a month ago, I started speaking with a person in Central Park in New York because we were both walking the dogs and then I was figuring out that he's a flaming liberal, and he was figuring out that I'm a rabid Republican by.

But we were able to conduct a civilized conversation and that is outstanding.

We are agreeing on several points here You know, on Ruth and I agree on how we see Putin and how we can progressing very slowly and losing more accurately rather than progressing.

So I agree with Stephen on several points.

I would like to point out real quick if I may.

I think we should be looking at people as Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals.

But as people and America My suspicion is that we both want the same thing, but we're just looking at different completely, you know, diametrically opposing ways of getting there.

And I think we see the world completely differently.

Again, what you call authoritarian, like, I don't call Trump authoritarian to me, President Biden is more of authoritarian because of some of the things that he has done.

But again, let's have those discussion genes that have normal conversations so that we can iron out the differences and get back on track because what's happening right now?

Authoritarians like Putin are taking advantage of the fact that our country is just torn apart and we need to unite.

That's kind of my view.

Well, I'll get to Ruth in one second I just want to say that you haven't written writing about this right now.

I mean, it is quite stunning to me.

If you look at Donald Trump's rhetoric over the last five years, it is purposefully divisive and fearmongering.

I mean, there's just the only way you can put it the people are coming into neighborhoods to destroy your neighborhoods, destroy your way of lives.

But Joe Biden is not in charge.

He's their nefarious forces behind and they want to destroy America.

Joe Biden and you can disagree with him on policy.

Yeah, sure doesn't say that he does talk about.

Let's see where we have common ground.

What can we work on together?

Infrastructure, this, that or the other thing?

So there does seem to me to be an asymmetry between how the leaders of the part of these two parties approach.

You know, some of these essential issues that they were trying to deal with, and they are setting the tone And for people within their party, if you look at polling data.

So you know, you know, my question and I was asking for hopeful things on what is going to give us some hope.

And the second is that it's hard to do that if one side is indeed trying and the other side is saying, no, you are destroying the country , you're the enemies and we want to lock you up.

I mean, you know, one party saying, lock up the other party and one party not saying that it's not just a difference of opinion over climate change It's a difference of opinion in how we talk about ourselves.

But let me go to Ruben.

OK, so on the hopeful note, if you consider so 2009, 18 was a global record for nonviolent mass protests And there is a new wave, and it's not only young people, though young people are very involved with, especially the climate protests in Chile In 2019, there were the largest protests about around economic inequality since the military dictatorship since the 1980s, and that those protests gave confidence to people and kind of clarified agendas leading to the recent election.

As president, there was a kind of a re litigation of the Pinochet military dictatorship where you had a neoliberal businessman up for president praising Pinochet versus a thirty five year old progressive former labor activist.

And that labor activist won and so we see all around the world farmers protesting Modi, Nigerians protesting police brutality , and I think we're ripe in the United States for a new round of nonviolent protest that's been a big lever of resistance in history.

OK, well, that's a wrap You get the last word.

It's a hopeful word I'd like to thank all , all of you out here.

We got we have to stop.

Please read and buy the books of these three smart people and look for them on Twitter.

A big thank you to all three of you for taking the time to join us at Crosscut Festival this year and for a really fascinating, fascinating conversation Thanks.

Thank you And let me give a big thank you to all of you out there who joined us today.

I hope you've had a chance to see some of the other sessions at the festival this year.

If you missed any.

There they are.

All available to watch on demand now as well.

And I'd recommend sticking around for what I think is the next panel.

Breaking news with Carl Bernstein He is one of my heroes of Woodward and Bernstein from Watergate.

And I'm eager to hear and discuss the future of journalism.

You can find all the sessions at Crosscut Dot com slash festival that's Crosscut dot com slash festival.

Enjoy the rest of your day, everyone.

I hope to see you in person next year.