Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.

The Arkansas Times and Little Rock Public Radio.

Hello again, everyone.

Thanks very much for being with us.

He was a long shot and he knew it.

In a moment, former Governor Asa Hutchinson, who ended his presidential campaign this week.

First, the Sanders administration's quarrel with the Arkansas Board of Corrections.

That continues if at the appellate level, a circuit judge having ruled that the panel overseeing state prisons is, in fact, autonomous, that it can operate the institutions as it deems appropriate, that it has the authority to fire the corrections secretary as it has done.

And another issue in multiple citizens campaigns, at least four of them, to amend the Arkansas Constitution.

Those petitions being thus far rejected.

Well, the state Supreme Court has agreed to expedite one of those appeals.

Representing the state is Attorney General Tim Griffin with us now.

General, thanks very much for coming in.

Thanks for having me.

Well, let's start with the prison matter, if we can.

The there is now a motion to vacate or at least to dismiss your appeal of the circuit court's ruling that the prison board's in charge, not the governor.

Yes.

So I can't get into all the weeds, but I'd probably put a lot of people to sleep if I got into the weeds.

But here's the bottom line on the litigation.

We have two separate suits.

So on one, one of the suits we are defending the state and the legislature and the law, as is our constitutional duty.

And the other suit we filed are filed on behalf of the state for violations of the Freedom of Information Act by the board and failure to comply with the state statute that governs very specifically governs hiring of special counsel.

And both of those are proceeding.

And we I believe that we have really strong arguments to to make, and we're making them.

And particularly, I would point out, on the Freedom of Information Act, it has been a lot of talk about the Freedom of Information Act.

There seems to be a lot of silence from a lot in the press who normally are outspoken on the Freedom of Information Act.

We are defending the act on behalf of the people of Arkansas, and I haven't heard a lot about that, but that's a really important lawsuit that we filed.

Well, let me take the first let's take the first one first and then we'll come back to FOIA.

And and that is that's a board under a constitutional amendment 33.

I think board has sole authority over those institutions and can hire and fire, as it will.

It can open and close institutions that can expand.

And they say the board says that's clear.

Well, as you know, we are in active litigation on this.

So I'm not going to get into the details of it here.

We are doing this in court.

Well, I will suffice it to say, I am meeting my constitutional obligations.

And I think we've got really good argument to be made and we're making making them in court where it's appropriate when all of that is has been litigated.

I'll be happy to come back on and do a postmortem.

Or the other one.

And the FOIA aspect.

Are you defending the FOIA or are you defending the administration?

No, we filed suit on that for violation of the freedom of information.

Right.

The impetus and the suit that.

Well, the impetus is a violation of the Florida.

Does it matter?

We have an obligation in that in this in this area to represent the state when there's been this sort of violation.

The other part is a statutory compliance with 702, which is a provision that governs very specifically, as I said, lays out the process for hiring of a special counsel.

But again, the specifics we're litigating that all that's laid out very clearly in our court filings.

I would just say stay tuned on those cases.

All right.

As an aside to that, although a series aside, a number of judges and some prosecutors now are saying that the Truth and Sentencing Act, of which you are an advocate, is is on track to make a bad situation worse in the sense that nobody is opposed to turning criminals loose on the street or being soft on crime.

But the state is not.

The Department of Corrections is not prepared to handle what is almost certain, they say, to be a significant increase in the inmate population.

Your thoughts?

Well, there's no question that when if you lock up more people, instead of letting them roam the streets, you need more beds.

That's math.

I estimated on television about probably a year ago that to handle the 2000, I think even discuss it on this show to handle the 2000 state prisoners.

Backlog.

That are currently being held in county jails.

That's 2000 alone.

Just to get those individuals where they belong out of the county jails to restore misdemeanor justice, then if you add for normal growth, that's at least another thousand, because our last governor released about a thousand or so a year because there was no room in the you may remember these emergency releases.

Emergency powers.

Right.

And so, you know, I estimated 5000.

I estimated 5000.

The other.

So I still think we need a lot whatever the number is.

The other thing I would say is the Protect Act is not all going in effect the same day it is rolling out in the coming years in terms of which which statutes become effective or became effective January one of this year versus later down the road.

So there is some rolling of that, but I don't think it's debatable that whether the Protect Act existed or not.

We were already bursting at the seams and have been.

And all of the sheriffs have we've been of one voice on the need for more beds.

The reality is you can't go 20 years in any state under any circumstances and fail to expand significantly your prison numbers.

You just can't.

Well, on that subject, General, there it in many quarters, many voices saying that we are sentencing rate in Arkansas, our incarceration rate as a percentage per capita population is way, way higher.

I've heard that.

I've heard that from these voices.

But many of these voices don't point out that we released them as fast as we lock them up.

If you put your if you've put your child in time out more than any other parent, but you release them a couple of seconds later, you've done nothing.

That's what we're doing.

So, yeah, we put a buck, makes us feel good.

I guess in some ways it's a feel good policy, which I we're putting them away, but then they're immediately released.

And what's the.

Point?

Well, as a percentage of the population of state population, but it's still high.

Well, look, we've had.

Well, my question is, General, do you see any, any, any al any possibility, any way, any any rationale for amending the criminal code?

I realize you've just expanded alternatives to sentencing, alternatives to incarceration.

Well, let me just say this.

If you read the Protect Act and don't buy into what you hear, you will see that I was one of the and the Protect Act is one of the biggest proponents of dealing with non violent criminals.

In fact, the Protect Act requires a certain amount of time served and it's a high percentage for violent criminals.

But there is actually a 50% and a only 25%, which is way below the federal system.

But you have to earn your way out.

The the problem with parole is people are eligible for parole no matter what.

If they just breathe and stay in prison.

And your eligibility for parole date has, in fact, de facto for many people become their sentence.

What we do in the Protect Act is we say, guess what?

You can earn up to 75% of your sentence off.

But you must earn it.

You must earn it by dealing by going to addiction training, by learning how to be a diesel mechanic, by learning, by getting a college degree, whatever it is, you've got to earn it.

So you've heard very little discussion of that.

And let me say one more thing on this, if I could, Steve.

All the people who say they're against expanding the prisons.

Every single liberal who says they don't want to expand prisons, they've been expanding them defacto for years while they quietly allow the county jails to be filled up.

So there's not a lot of credibility by a lot of the people talking here.

And and it is unfortunate that we have as much violent crime as we do, but the answer is not to release them in the hopes that they won't be violent again.

I got to move on.

There are a half dozen anywhere, not maybe not that many proposed amendments to the Constitution by FOIA as one of them.

Abortion is in the works.

School spending and even one on paper ballots.

None have been certified so far.

Why?

Well, the.

Are you being too tough?

Well.

Well, that's not exactly true.

So the the the the measure that relates to reducing taxes on feminine products.

that one has been out.

I'm doing my job.

This has been the process for 80 years, except for a little period of of two years when we had it going through the state election commission.

The state Supreme Court said the way the election commission process was working is unconstitutional.

This 80 year process, the state Supreme Court has said, is the best way.

It's a good way to do it.

And if effective, fully endorsed it.

Here's the problem with a lot of the criticisms I've heard people say, well.

GRIFFIN Well, you got to do it fast.

He approves the ones that he likes and he disapproves of that.

The problem with that, there are no there's no facts associated with that.

We have the same process that has always existed.

So here's the way it happens.

So I get an email quickly, General.

Yeah, I get an email.

It goes through our process and then I reply.

Great work.

Approved.

We've issued 100 opinions over the last year.

I have changed none of their outcomes.

So the bottom line is I have approved things that I disagree with and I have I have rejected things that I personally agree with.

Ultimately, this is a process that amends the law for 3.3 or changes of law for 3.3 million people.

It needs to have rigor and it does.

And some of the people who are listening to and reading our opinions are changing their application and they're making progress.

Governor, I have to end our General, I have to answer.

What is simply out of town?

Call me Tim.

Well, Tim, Col, General.

Whatever.

Thank you.

Thanks for coming in.

Thank you.

We'll be right back.

And we are back.

He acknowledged at the start of his campaign that the odds were formidable, just the side of forbidding, given his theme that the Republican Party had best seek new leadership.

Many observers felt he was overly optimistic.

An assessment ratified last Monday night when Iowa Republicans caucused.

It was a night that saw Iowa temperatures drop to -17 degrees to the former governor of Arkansas.

It might have seemed even colder after a sixth place finish with but a sliver of the caucus vote.

Asa Hutchinson said he regretted nothing.

He ended his presidential campaign and drove home to Bentonville from there.

He joins us now.

Governor, welcome home and thanks for coming aboard today.

Well, thanks, Steve.

I always like your introductions when they describe the situation.

Well.

Well, in that case, you said, sir, you were very candid in your in your farewell to the campaign you were selling.

And Iowa caucus goers, Iowa Republicans simply weren't buying.

Why?

Well, you know, I guess you can always look at the candidate and say we could have marketed better and a better message.

But it was a message that I believed in.

I think it was important for our party to hear that.

And whenever you look at Iowa, toward the end, all the alternative Trump voters shifted toward Nikki Haley.

And so she had a better night.

But that's where my votes went.

And so I think my voice was still very important, but I didn't get the beneficiary of those of that change.

So that was Iowa.

You know, I look at the campaign and, you know, eight candidates dropped out.

We were in the final six and we got our message out and worked hard at it.

And I feel good came home and we start new challenges and we look forward to those.

Well, Governor, you said that from the from the start, that you're you're a part of your message.

A big part of your message was it was a cautionary or even onto an admonition.

Your views, you said, needed to be heard to to the Republican electorate.

Do you feel like you made a difference finishing the way you did?

I did indeed.

And first of all, of course, my message is we need to go a different direction than President Biden.

Border security for your spending too much money in Washington and economic challenges that we face.

And so that's a core part of my message.

And I talked about the breadth of experience I have as governor for eight years, lowering taxes, growing the economy.

I talked about making sure that we secure the border, which I'm the only one that actually had that responsibility as a public servant in the Bush administration.

So those are all the positive messages that I brought to change the direction of America.

Of course, I also said we need to go a different direction than Donald Trump.

And that's where, you know, other candidates soft pedaled it.

And it's interesting, I was the third candidate in the race.

I was the only one early on that said we ought to go a different direction on Donald Trump.

And then most recently, you see Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley getting very aggressive on that point.

And so I laid the foundation there as terms of warnings, but also in terms of a positive new direction that we need to go.

And I didn't get to be I was not the beneficiary of it, but I do believe it made a difference.

Well, but, Governor, the Mr. Trump went ahead and won Iowa by these enormous set a new record in Iowa, as a matter of fact.

Your party correct me if I'm wrong, but your party would seem to be in no based on Iowa anyway, would seem to be in no mood to change directions.

Well, that's true at the present time.

And you have a couple of factors.

One, he's treated as an incumbent since he's a former president.

Secondly, there's a there's a disagreement on the base as to the charges.

The criminal charges have been filed against him.

And then they have bought into his purposed, you know, perpetuating lies and misinformation to him and so the grievance has really motivated him and escalated his campaign.

So he's strong position right now.

We'll see if it changes to New Hampshire or beyond.

It it might not.

But still, whether it changes or not, my forewarning is important.

And I believe I spoke the truth and I'll be happy to be judged on that truth.

In terms of history.

Is it in fact, sir, as many wags would have, it is in fact the Republican Party.

Mr. Trump, as of today.

It is moving in that direction at a very rapid pace.

He certainly controls the apparatus of the national Party and and now he's consolidating his support among the base, which really never left.

But he was after January six, in a very difficult position.

But the leadership of the party empowered him again, and he's in a very strong position today.

And so this is really the last hope is to recapture the Republican Party based upon principles instead of personalities, to continue to work for the common good versus personal ego.

And to me, that's what public service is about.

Mr. Trump and his advocate, sir, would say that issues are exactly what is animating his campaign.

He is speaking to the issues and doing so in a way that has created his own base and that obviously a great many, at least on the well across the country, find not only acceptable, but embrace.

That's true.

I mean, he expresses his view of the issues based upon a grievance and anger and and in a very aggressive tone, poking fun at others that might disagree with him.

So that's his style.

But it's also the policy.

And for example, you know, I make the point that his idea of a ring around of America, a 10% tariff, will hurt Arkansas farmers, Iowa farmers and our businesses.

I made that point.

But the policy discussions get swallowed up in his latest court appearance and so and the fact is he hasn't done very well in court.

I mean, he's had two court cases.

One of them founding guilt, found him liable for sexual abuse, and the other one found him libel and guilty of a business fraud.

And so this would disqualify most candidates for president.

I believe that character still counts and that the most important characteristic of a president is that you tell the truth to the public.

And whenever he says that January six was a patriotic duty and patriotic act, that is in fact misleading Americans.

Governor, I would I would note that you are widely known to be a man of real faith.

On Monday night, the evangel local turnout for Mr. Trump was absolutely stupendous.

He did better.

He did better this time than he did four years ago.

Your thought, your thoughts as a religious conservative yourself on that, What's animating that part of the GOP base?

Well, you're absolutely correct on that.

That's what had to happen in Iowa, is that even evangelical Christians would say we need to have a different direction.

We need to have somebody of both faith and character in the White House.

And I don't know if I can explain it completely, but it appears to me that they like his results more than they value character.

And, you know, a a Christian spirit, if you will, in the White House.

And so I've talked to a lot of them and they just remember some of the things that he did that they like from Israel to the, you know, Supreme Court changes that were made.

And so they give him credit for that and they're willing to swallow real hard and say we're going to vote for him, despite.

And that's exactly what they say, despite his flaws.

And we're not looking for somebody that's perfect as president.

But I do believe when we speak of character, it is telling the truth and not misleading supporters.

And that's my biggest angst about Donald Trump is simply continuing to mislead his supporters.

Governor, do you see any room at all in November for a third party, no matter what his or her ideology?

The answer is yes.

If there if the two major political parties give us what the public does not want, which is a Biden Trump rematch, then that reflects a failure of the two major political parties.

And so that leaves an opening for a third party.

Now, third parties are always at a disadvantage.

And they they you know, have tend to be the spoiler.

But I do believe this year is different than other years.

If, in fact, Donald Trump and Joe Biden go ahead and get the nomination of their parties.

So we will see about that.

But I'd say that there is an opening wider than historically has been true.

This this enormous national divide that we're looking at where where everybody, it seems, has been driven to one or the other.

Poll and the gap's getting wider.

Do you have a formula?

Do you have a what prescription would you offer or do you have one for bridging that divide?

You know, actually this week was a good example.

Whenever the Democratic National Committee spokesperson took a took a shot at me.

It was widely criticized in a bipartisan way.

And then the President Biden's chief of staff calls me up and apologizes and said that should have never happened.

It was out of line and showed respect to me and that the media got a hold of that and it became a national story.

And the point is that all of a sudden America could see that you can actually apologize for something.

Someone can accept the apology, and we move on and we can disagree with somebody without demonizing them.

And so I think that was a good moment in American politics, and I hope it sets an example.

So it's about individuals, it's about leadership, it's about setting the right tone and you everybody taking responsibility for it.

And America likes to see that.

So we're going to fight it out real hard between the different beliefs and direction we should go.

But let's have a level of civility.

Let's have a level of respect for the other side.

To me, that's the American democracy in action.

One final question, sir, on that.

On this particular year, if Mr. Trump is your party's nominee in November, can you support him?

Will you support it?

Well, I'm still holding forth with saying if he's a convicted felon, the answer is no, I'm not going to support a convicted felon for president United States and secondly, beyond that, I hope to support the nominee of the party, which I still hold out hope for, although it's slimmer, that we will have someone different and an alternative.

So let's see how that develops and then we'll make decisions as needed.

And finally, this or you indicated a moment ago, earlier in our conversation that you were not necessarily done in the public arena.

What do you have in mind?

Well, I actually I wanted to send the message that I'm invigorated.

I'm not worn out.

I'm excited about the future.

Obviously, there's some private sector responsibilities that I will have and lead.

And but I've committed myself for a long time in the public arena.

And if I can influence the direction of our country, then I'll look for that opportunity as well.

So we'll we'll just wait and see.

Governor Asa Hutchinson, thank you for your time.

You are always welcome here, sir.

We hope you come back.

It's always good to be with you.

Thanks so much.

You bet.

And that does it for us for this week.

As always, we thank you for watching and we'll see you next week.

Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette at the Arkansas Times and Little Rock Public Radio.