Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

The Arkansas Times and Kuer FM 89 in the current cultural climate, it was only a matter of time before critical race theory moved from the Academy to the political arena.

Time measured in minutes.

Arkansas deeply involved our two US senators have now introduced legislation to prevent federal financing of public school instruction in the concept.

Earlier this year, the legislature approved a bill barring state agencies from involvement with what?

It termed the legislation termed divisive concepts, critical race theory among them representative Mark Lowry, Republican of Maumelle, and who joins us now, was unsuccessful in attempting to ban CRT from Arkansas Public School curriculum.

Archly critical of that legislation was a retired teacher and state Senator, Democrat Joyce Elliott of Little Rock, who is with us also, Sir Madam, thank you very much for being with us.

Thanks for having us.

Mr Larry will begin with you.

Water, so what's what's wrong with CRT in your estimate?

I think you focused on one of the words is divisive.

What we've what we're doing, and what we're seeing in many of the classrooms that do emphasize this is a division of students based on their race or ethnicity.

Rather than recognizing the worth of the individual and the value of the individual.

And I think Senator Elliot is an educator would understand that it is detrimental in the classroom environment to single out, for instance.

We wouldn't take all the A students and put him into Rose and the beast.

Students in these rows so that the students identify who has the good grades.

But we're doing the same thing by emphasizing that divisiveness is by emphasizing their race or their ethnicity, and I don't think it belongs in the classroom.

CRT, by one definition of Mr. Lowry posits that black and white students, black and white period, are quite distinct in our culture.

In our society where they are, but you know, we have we have.

Fought for so long to be able to live up to the words of the Constitution.

All men are created equal.

Now we've not achieved that, but now that we're fighting precisely the point, Sir, that they would make is that we have an issue.

Well, we haven't achieved that, but we have been trying to form that more perfect union that we can get to that point.

Well now the those who cyndy for instance who teaches in how to be anti racist, says that we have to push back on this concept of equal.

That indeed the only way to cure past discrimination is by current discrimination.

And I think that that violates the US Constitution.

It violates the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and I think it violates the rights of many of our students in our classrooms, members ELION.

Well, the good thing for Representative Lowry, his failed might have passed, but that's not going to hurt anything because nobody is teaching critical race theory in our schools to start with.

And so we were in a position of trying to ban what's not happening an CRT.

If you understand, the definition is based on the fact that.

This country was began and there were slavery and I'm not talking about dates.

We were there was slavery, and that was a part of our system.

And that's what CRT looks at.

So if you have a system that's based on whatever the beginning thing was, what they posit is that you look at that system and see how does it affect people, because you can only change things for good in long term.

If you understand what that system is, what it's effects were.

So we started with slavery.

And then slavery was abolished.

And here we are, you know, coming up have a new holiday as of today, June and June 10th, and so from slavery to emancipation.

And everybody was all happy and to reconstruction, which which was really a good thing because you could look on the walls of the Capitol and you see, we had, you know, black legislators, and so many things happen with reconstruction all over the South that were really good.

So we had the reconstruction system.

And we saw how things changed.

Under the reconstruction system, well, Jim Crow didn't like that, and then we moved to a Jim Crow system, and so the people who started the idea of the of the CRT said.

Let's look at the fact that these were these were legal minds.

Let's look at the fact with these cases that we keep having rooted in something that's getting us an outcome that is not equal, and so it really started with people saying what's going on in our economic system.

What's going on in our social system?

And look at this as systems.

And so we would not, under the bill, pretty much not even be able to discuss Juneteenth if that Bill had passed.

When it's not about that's not about critical race theory, except to say a system was so embedded and these are the things that came out of it, and one of the things that came out of that we looked.

We looked at slavery, figured out it was wrong.

We Lincoln Sonia ************.

The Emancipation Proclamation.

And now we can look at this and go OK, this is something we're celebrating because we looked at the system and because of what it had done to people, we made changes and it is system that's right in your view.

So it is an and I will say this real quick because I want you to talk some more too.

But you and I, for example.

I think this is a good illustration, but we boasted only education committee.

We have an education system.

We are working right now through that system to try to right some wrongs and thus would CRT calls on us to do you fact actually practiced a little bit of it because you are not.

You are not for the system.

That meant you, and I would have gone to different schools here in the South because you're white non black.

That happened because of the educational system.

And then we started trying to change it and CRT would say, well, you got to look at all the systemic things that happen and you might remember that many times when we were discussing what's happening and people keep saying we can't keep throwing money at it or it's been so many billions and it hasn't been fixed.

That's the 'cause.

We haven't fixed the systems that affect everything else.

Mark Lowry will.

CRT posits that America as a nation is currently systemically racist, systemic, systemically racist.

Now when you look at the definition of systemic, it's a medical term.

It's talking about the entire Organism, and I don't believe yes, there have been instances.

And by the way it's disingenuous for proponents to say that the ban on critical race theory, which unfortunately I didn't get my bill passed, but that it's a ban on teaching history.

Absolutely not.

I have said very consistently that it would be educational malpractice for us in Arkansas to not teach about the Little Rock Central High crisis.

The Elaine race riots to talk about the contributions of Representative John Walker.

We have to teach about those things, but not in a way that pits one group of students against another and that is taking place.

The polling data that is out there right now.

The Economist ran a poll.

1400 Americans.

There's only 25% support for the teaching of CRT, 53% opposed.

And here's the really critical part.

This is not just white against black.

Hispanics have the largest percentage of opposition to the teaching of critical race theory.

We have to talk about the value of the individual, not in terms of putting them into their specific corners based on their race or their ethnicity.

Is it not though, Sir, the individual of the value of the individual value denied that is sort of at the core of CRT, but that may have happened historically.

But the thing that is hypocritical about proponents of CRT.

Is that they don't acknowledge that the institutions that were most responsible for racism in America was the Democrat Party, and in some cases even churches like liberal churches, the Methodist Church.

There's a recent article or a book that came out that saying that some of the proponents of the clan in Arkansas were members of the Methodist Church.

Now, are we going to say that those institutions should be cancelled because of something that happened in the past?

Absolutely not.

They have been able to reform.

They have been able to be forgiven, so to speak, represent Senator Elliot mentions Reconstruction.

Reconstruction was held up because of Democrats.

It was the Republican Party that was trying to push that and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was held up by Democrats.

Yet we're not cancelling the Democrat party.

Now we may be at the polls, but we're not cancelling them in terms of their relevance in the public sphere.

You're just talking about something that is just irrelevant to what we're talking about.

I hear all the time about the Democratic Party did this.

That's true.

And and that's something that's taught and it's no big deal.

We ought to teach people the truth.

You might think because I'm a Democrat.

That offends me.

It does not because people need to know the truth.

But the but since you're going to go there the other side of it is that Republicans there are lots of African Americans who are Republicans who wouldn't even think of it now because the thing that you do is just like you said.

You to part of the story because the folks who were the Republicans then doing the right things are on the other side of things now.

But CRTS is it basis in the campaign is it is not.

Here is that we are making up where we are making up a straw man over here and argue against it because our schools are not teaching CRT, they just aren't teaching it because an if we don't want our kids to understand the systems and we don't want to understand the systems of the way.

Right now somebody could walk into this room and guess we don't live in a neighborhood in the same neighborhood that they could guess that it probably be 90%, right?

That's because they understand the system that caused that to happen.

Let me limit.

Let me go here.

Isn't a proper role, Mr. Laura, for the General Assembly?

Who did who determines what is divisive, divisive, and is it a proper function for a legislative body to determine educational content?

Well, absolutely it is, and we've done it historically.

I mean, we have passed legislation on teaching cursive writing.

We've.

Pass legislation on teaching finance.

Personal Finance will also on evolution.

Well when we even passed legislation, this time adding talking about the contributions of Representative John Walker as a civil rights icon.

We did those things.

We did them in this session and so yes, I think as far as guard rails the legislature should be involved in that in the last piece of legislation that I did sponsor, it passed the House.

Representative Murdoch worked with me on this.

Was trying to come to some understanding of the elements that we concert.

We should be able to agree on that we shouldn't be teaching that one race is superior to another.

No, yes, teaching that it is.

I've seen the resource guidelines in school district, so if anybody is doing it, if anybody is doing that, that's an anomaly.

I will tell you nobody becomes a teacher.

Try to make kids feel bad, but it's it's impossible sometimes to talk about things that I'm not that I'm uncomfortable.

But does it mean we don't do it because I'm uncomfortable?

I spent years in our classrooms of being uncomfortable.

Every time I went to miss modules class I was uncomfortable, but it didn't mean I shouldn't learn because I felt uncomfortable.

And when you say we would be remiss in not teaching history, but you also define, you say something basically like true history.

I forgot what the word was.

The problem we have is his history was written from somebody's point of view.

That doesn't make it right.

But as if it's what we accept and the system of education says this is what's right.

Anne, I had the good I had the good fortune of going to a school where I learned about these other things I learned about them from my teachers.

'cause that's who we had from a black perspective to help us understand there is more than one way to look at history.

And when we try to talk about these things just because they think that bothers me every time we use the word race, everything seems to go awry.

This is a real problem, I think.

For our kids growing up.

In a very diverse world, they need to know better than anybody post this question if I can.

To center Elliot, it is a frequent criticism of CRT that particularly well.

Students of all races, all ethnicities, art are told or taught, but particularly white students are taught that they are almost from birth.

This is the criticism almost from birth, that they are predisposed to dislike or to regard people of color as less than they are.

Yeah, that that is an inherent part of the curriculum.

Your response?

No?

I, I don't.

If we're actually using the principles of CRT, it should not be an inherent part of the curriculum.

They should be taught about the possibility of the way any of us any one of us is raised, that we might have biases against certain groups because that is a part of being human.

But what CRT should be?

And I'm not saying there's not some rogue out there, but what CRT should be saying.

Look, we have systems things are not the way they are by accident.

It is not by accident that the political system is the way it is, or the economic system or the educational system.

If these systems were working the way they should, we wouldn't be trying to solve the problems we have now 'cause we would have that equality.

I wouldn't.

I would wager you.

50 years from now, somebody is going to be examining something that we did wrong.

That is very system that's very systemic, and it makes sense to us.

I hope they have the courage to change it.

And not just say we were so great we don't deserve to have anybody changed what we did Mr. Lauer and in teaching those as historical truths is completely accurate.

I mean it's something we should do as a former debate coach.

I believe in that give and take in the discussions what is happening though is that students are being labeled because of historical truths that you talk about there being labeled as either oppressors or privileged and the other students are disenfranchised or they are the oppressed and that type of divisive labeling.

Is detrimental, it is divisive.

It should be removed from our classrooms.

Well, it doesn't.

It does it.

It doesn't divide.

Say I don't know a basketball team.

Somebody is labeled starters.

Somebody has labeled.

You are going to come in and relieve a starter.

There is no reason for us to use this as something that's going to divide us people an because.

If kids can't can't handle the truth, that means that we have failed in the way we teach them.

Is the adults who are failing the kids so the truth that a student should a white student, for instance, should accept is that they are an oppressor.

Even though their family historically never owned a single slave.

No, I've had nothing to do.

That's the problem.

That's the problem with your argument is that you've got some thought in your idea in your head about what people are teaching and they are not teaching it stick well.

I'm going to tell you, except for maybe you can point out some body somewhere, but that is not what teachers do.

Teachers do not do these things and harm kids.

It doesn't mean that somebody in a class is not going to be comfortable.

For example, when I was teaching, I had people both black and white and anybody in between really upset with me for teaching Huckleberry Finn and really letting the words that are in the book be used in the class.

It was my responsibility to make sure they understood the context and the things we keep talking about it out of context, and CRT calls on us to put it in content to contexts.

The reason that we haven't gone as far as we should, even with all the time you've spent with education, why is it still a problem with segregation?

Why's it still a problem that some schools look great, some schools don't?

Is built into the system and as long for Essex, for example, as long as we try to fix education through that you've heard me say this through the Education Committee and we've worked side-by-side on adequacy of making sure that those inequities are addressed.

We have it hasn't happened to the to the extent we wish it should, but you know why it hasn't happened because of that CRT principle.

Say look, you can do all you want to with the education system, but what are you doing with that with the economic system?

What are you doing with all of those with the health system?

That's what they're talking about.

It's not just a one way thing here.

It may be the one thing, but there are all these other accesses that are having an effect and we are not addressing these other things we're trying to do it through one method, in this case in this education.

Well, it's unfortunate CRT is about some of the options the outpouring of CRT or things like.

I mean, I read one article on the Bentonville School District website.

Their resource guide is an article that says that we need to stop.

Anti racist grading that to say a student is falling behind is a racist statement.

Throwing out letter grades, throwing out standardized test scores, all these things are outpourings of critical race theory this out.

This divisive teaching that says, well, some students have an advantage in this area of education versus this other area.

All students have an ability to learn to succeed, to achieve, and that's what we should be focusing on, not on the things that make them different Mike.

But if if we say.

I heard that statement.

I have to say frankly, drives me crazy versus like a some kind of discovery when when we had the big thing about all kids can learn like who didn't know that.

So that's a systemic thing, right there that we think it's a big deal to say all kids can learn.

It's just somebody somewhere thought they couldn't.

So even with the case in Bentonville, you're talking about it.

With that context, I don't know what.

I don't know the issues here.

Somebody makes a statement and we seize on that statement.

Or they put the letter out there.

What are all of those?

Other things that came into that discussion before they did that.

I'm not saying right or wrong, but we can't keep on saying it's CRT is we're talking about something.

I don't know what it is, but it's not CRT and it's hard to define because even the Washington Examiner had an opinion Op Ed column where the writer said that the goal posts are moving on CRT because the left the proponents realize they're losing that battle.

They're losing it because people are waking up and realizing we don't need to go to the back to the days.

Of Jim Crow where there's divisiveness that these kids as you said awhile ago, they're not born.

To believe that someone from that it doesn't have the same skin color is less than them, or that they can't be friends with them and that that is the hope for America is that we can focus on that and develop on that rather than telling the students you're different and you're and you need to blame this group or you need to blame this group for what has taken place rather than a question of blame.

Though Mr. Lauer is part of CRT Atwood in one reading anyway.

Would seem to be saying too.

The majority white.

Population, certainly students or to the broader population of that owing to your majority status in this culture, it has imbued you white folks with a level of privilege that is not as readily assessable anyway to people of color.

Is that not part of the core, and that's what.

And that's why the would you deny that.

That's why the evidence is out there, that the the beginnings, the genesis of critical race theory is Marxism.

But it didn't.

It didn't work in America because of bad pitting classes against one another didn't work because people were able to elevate themselves from one class to another, but they had to move to something that's immutable that you can't change your skin color to try and create this division in America.

And we don't need to go there.

We should be talking about equality.

We should be talking about what unites us, not what divides us an.

I think that there's a Marxist notion forever really well.

Yeah, but it does exist.

Critical race theory is out there.

This resource guide comes from the division of equity at the Bentonville Schools I've been told.

Little Rock School district I've sat in.

I've watched some of their teacher training, talking about how assimilation is racism.

Those concepts are being put into our schools and even if they aren't, what is wrong with Arkansas being proactive?

Well, nothing's wrong with it, but we.

If you keep insisting you keep telling folks that this is and you've got a bully pulpit.

This is came from Marxism, which I don't know where you come up with that.

But if you just keep saying something over and over, it doesn't make it true.

Even if somebody did something in Bentonville.

The thing that I that I would like people just take some time and understand what's critical.

I lost my place.

Click critical race theory is because I don't know how we get to that ideal place you're talking about.

And definitely I want to be there because I had to go through some uncomfortable things and I learn some things that's helped me tremendously, and I know I'm a better person for it.

You know, 'cause I've been through integrating the school and it was not fun.

You know, and I've had those discriminations that are so normal I didn't come out on the other side, hating people that came out understanding more about why people are the way they are when you say you want us to just concentrate on what brings us together.

And that's that's true.

But you can't get there unless you know what God is.

This point that we are divided that we need to be brought together and that's the thing we refuse to do.

I wish we could have thoughtful, quiet discussions about how systemic racism and there is a thing such as systemic racism.

And it is absolutely most likely going to be the case if you are the majority year that the ones who wrote the story.

You are the ones who built the system.

All the systems annex common sense that you might build it in your favor.

But we can't sit down and understand all that.

We don't have a chance.

I'm just saying forget about everything that ever happened to get us to this point.

Well, and that's where the free exchange of ideas in the classroom can take place and should take place.

And I agree with that.

The issue, again, is this this element of saying that maybe one student's interpretation or their perspective is not welcomed in that conversation because they had so many generational advantages.

And that is what is happening many times because some of the instructors, some of the teachers.

That are how many mark the ones that you know when I just say this, the ones that are moderating the ones that are moderating these kinds of conversations do not have the expertise to be able to make sure that all sides are heard fairly in the classroom.

Let's solve that problem exactly.

This solve the problem and not.

Is that a baby bathwater issue?

Yeah, yeah it is.

Because this this is start somewhere.

So why not start with proper teacher training on how these issues should exactly right and this is the same thing with all the other issues you were talking about.

If we aren't together, why don't we stop just like we want to stop and make sure the teachers know how to do it?

Why don't we stop and learn why we're not together?

Therefore we might know what to do today and that's the essence of my bill was to ban the teaching of it.

Until we can maybe get a better hold of it now my bill didn't say that, but that would be a good starting point.

No Sir, it didn't.

You know what representative Murdock worked with me on HP 1761 where I said Reggie?

Surely there's some concepts that we can agree on.

Let's just start from this.

These are the guardrails were not going to mandate it to the school districts.

We just want them to adopt policy.

And you heard the presentation.

So he said.

So what are those things we should be able to agree that students that students are not?

Of one race or not superior to students of another race, we should agree on that statement.

Those are the guardrail that one race should not or ethnicity should not blame the other race or ethnicity for the harms.

Let's agree on those concepts and then maybe we can move forward.

I'm going to give center daily at the last few seconds because like you say, there's so much we need to do before before we just start talking about the kids.

An somebody suggesting one is better than the other.

That's not the issue, it is the entire system that we have built this country on that we need to take a look at it and go now.

Why did that get us to this?

Why are we here?

And we only know that by going back and looking at the system.

It's been a good hand I got in there because.

Thank you, it's just critical time period.

Thanks both of you.

Thank you as always for watching.

See you next week.

Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

The Arkansas Times and Kuer FM 89.