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We provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, the Arkansas times and Kuer FM 89.

Hello again everyone.

Thanks very much for joining us with about 14,000 cases and now more than 200 deaths.

Coronavirus continues to shadow Arkansas.

Nonetheless, Commerce here as elsewhere, is resuming business interests, and Republican lawmakers have been pressuring governor Hutchinson for weeks to call a special legislative session, fearing what they termed frivolous lawsuits by employees and customers that might arise from COVID-19.

On Monday, Mr Hutchinson met them halfway declining a special session, but signing executive orders to raise the standard of proof.

In any such complaints, there was immediate pushback from opposition Democrats labor and the plaintiffs bar who faulted the higher evidentiary threshold, an challenge the governor's authority to impose it.

Both sides now, Charlie Spikes as president of the Arkansas grocers and retail Merchants Association and Carter Stein as an attorney with the Mcmath Woods firm of Little Rock Gentlemen.

Thank you very much for being with us.

Charlie speaks will start with you.

This is exactly what you wanted from from state government or close enough.

It is close enough, I think.

It just provides some some certainty for businesses that want to reopen.

Uhm, so I think for the most part, all of my my members and retailers and groceries around the state or pleased with it.

Karstein yeah, so I'm not really sure how this provided certainty because I'm not really sure that there is a crisis or even a potential crisis or COVID-19 related litigation.

So again, I'm not really sure how this provides certainty, and I'm not sure how this is constitutional.

Well, let's start with the constitutional part.

First there, this would seem, I think, some attorneys on both sides of said to me this got lawsuit or legal challenge written all over it.

It seems to run to fly in the face of the state constitution.

Uh Carter Stein Yeah so yeah, we have three Co equal branches of government and here we have the governor by executive order essentially saying that there are limitations now and the types of lawsuits that can be brought.

the Supreme Court is already spoken on this issue in the last couple of years.

Any change to the constitution needs to be approved by the voters at the ballot box.

Charlie spikes.

Yeah, you know I I'm an attorney, but probably not as distinguished does not Cali over here, but it wasn't our first choice.

We'd much rather a special session and for it to be legislatively done.

It wasn't done like that.

So you know, my my members aren't attorneys there, just small businesses around the state that are pleased with what happened.

Well the question was we not only can Mr.

Hutch, it is there some question about whether Mr Hudson Hutchinson can do this by executive order?

But whether any legislation passed by the General Assembly would withstand a challenge?

Your thoughts on that.

You know, that's that's up to state.

Attorneys and attorneys around to state in the spring cordon courts to decide we have.

We have separate branches of government and the legislative body decides it's something that they're willing to take up and hear from enough constituents and businesses in their area to to make the fight worth it.

Then they'll do that.

And, you know, we're not attorneys or just asking for reasonable protections.

Well, is it reasonable, though?

Mr.

Stein seems to suggest that, as have others, that it's.

A solution without a problem, at least thus far.

Well ends well if that if that's the deal then is she shouldn't be too worried about this.

This executive order only goes until the end of his emergency declaration.

If it's something you don't think you can bring anyways, this doesn't change much in our opinion.

It's you know, it provides some certainty for people that are scared about frivolous lawsuits.

Others say don't be scared, but that those are people that don't own small businesses and don't have their lives at stake.

Carter Stein Well, I respectfully disagree with that statement.

I'm a partner in a small business and certainly our business has been affected by COVID-19.

We haven't had any trial date since March and that stuff on our small business and stuff on our clients are seeking justice.

But as a law firm were not out here asking or any special protection.

We know that as long as we're acting reasonably and that's the common law standard for negligence, the reasonable person, we know that if we're acting reasonably following the Department of house directives, following CDC guidance that we're not going to be sued for our actions.

But what this executive order does is changes that burden of proof from the reasonable person standard I all the way to essentially a punitive damages standard.

You have to prove recklessness, willful, wanton, or intentional conduct.

I thought really heightens that standard.

Again, I don't think there's going to be any litigation that comes from this, because these cases would be difficult or nearly impossible to prove, and I'm happy to talk about that more later.

But it does concern me about the future and what may be coming down the road for the legislature.

Well, speak of that for justice.

I take a moment for that if you will.

The nose under the tent.

Is that what you're suggesting?

Yeah, you know, if you're a hammer, you're always looking for a nail, right?

And so if tort reform is what you're pushing now, you got a little bit of tort reform by executive order.

Maybe the next time the Legislature meets next year.

Maybe we want a little bit more of that tort reform, and certainly that concerns me for the citizens of this state.

Mr.

Space are we talking talking about a?

A, uh?

Bar that is just unreasonably high in terms of clients, customers, patients, this executive order would cover health care workers as well.

Charlie specs.

Yeah, anyways, I don't represent healthcare workers, so I can't really.

I don't want to speak to that aspect of it or afraid.

I'm not in this speak, but we don't think so.

We think it protects people that are acting reasonable that aren't maliciously.

Disregarding CDC in the health Department guidelines.

And there's there's certainty where CDC and we've seen from The Who CDC UM, the Health Department, where these guidelines are not always the same.

And they mix.

Imagine they change it first.

At one point you really didn't need mass.

Now we all.

It's all stated that we do.

You do need mask so you know my my people are.

It's in their best interest to protect employees and customers.

They just want to be able to do that with without a shadow of.

Um litigation over their head while Carter Stan that shadow is it's real, is it not?

Uhm, well.

If it's real, then where the lawsuits?

Uh, Governor Hutchinson.

I believe on Monday at his press conference said that he was unaware of any cover.

19 related lawsuits in Arkansas.

So I understand that those this perceived threat of litigation, but it hasn't happened so far in Arkansas, and this pandemic started in March.

And here we are.

In mid June.

The reality is, any type of infectious disease case is a very very difficult case to prove.

For example, if we take one of Mr Spikes.

Clients, a grocery store and someone says hey, I want to Sue the grocery store because I contracted COVID-19 at their store.

If they were to come to my law office, the first question I would ask them is OK.

You went to that grocery store.

Where else did you go?

Uh, this isn't a situation where people are invalid in a nursing home or or at a State Correctional Facility.

These people that are able to go to grocery stores are also able to go to other places and so.

Any plans to turn is going to have the burden of proof to show proximate cause.

You have to show that they contracted this virus.

At this specific location and then on top of that, you would have to prove that the store was acting unreasonably.

Now that would have been under the common law negligence standard.

Now, with this executive order, you'd have to prove that the store acted willfully, wantonly, intentionally or recklessly, which is again a very high standard.

But even if we didn't have the executive order.

I don't think these lawsuits will be coming forward.

They haven't come forward in the first three months.

Why would they start now?

Well Mr Spacey response.

Well, I mean just 'cause they haven't come here as of yet.

It's not preposterous to think they can.

Or will that?

There's no.

There's certainly these cases that are in the US against Walmarts against grocery stores against retailers.

So and our, our thought is if if you don't, if people don't think that these will come anyways, then this really doesn't impact you unless you're worried about future legislation which work.

My businesses aren't right now.

They're trying to get through this.

They can keep the economy rolling and workers working, and the States and cities and everything.

I'm going running smoothly.

There was the fear expressed in several quarters Mr.

Specs that businesses would simply cut corners.

Obviously every enterprises under stress right now, and it's tremendous temptation for businesses.

Some Mr Hutchinson would call them outliers hours.

I believe he did on Monday that they will attempt to cut corners in terms of.

Procedures and standards.

Your your response.

Well for us, our members and I feel like many of the business community want bad actors to be punished.

The people that are cutting corners to us most likely or being willful and.

What would fit to that higher degree?

Uhm, there's certain guidelines, and with this order, if you adhere to those in a good face fashion.

You'll be OK shortcut in corners, you're gonna open yourself up to live build.

Carter signed, you get the last word tonight.

Yeah, I would say that this executive order protects the unreasonable actors, right?

It won't protect the really really bad actors who acted recklessly or willfully, wantonly, or intentionally, but what we have essentially done is given protection to the unreasonable actors, the ones who ignore the CDC guidelines, who ignore their Department of Health directors.

and I don't think that's a good precedent for the citizens of Arkansas Carter Stein of the bar, and Charlie specs of the retailers.

Thank you both very much for being part of the broadcast tonight.

Come back.

It will return in just a moment.

And we're back 2 1/2 years after the Emancipation Proclamation and two months after APA mattox word that the Civil War had ended.

Reach slaves in Texas on June 19th, 1865.

Thus, the origin of Juneteenth now observed coast coast.

The day has a special resonance in this year of civil unrest.

These weeks of protests in every state, including hours, a new awakening.

It has been called, Is It?

And an awakening to exactly what?

We're joined by the executive director of the Mosaic Templars Cultural Center in Little Rock, Christina shut.

And Sherman take businessman and civic leader long active in the Human Rights Campaign.

Welcome to both of you and thank you for joining us.

Miss shut.

Let's begin with you.

What is Juneteenth?

Think I'm an old white guy to a much younger African American woman.

What does Juneteenth this year mean?

Well, I think Juneteenth is really about, of course, historically celebrating freedom.

But I think it also throughout the years, has continued to resonate the story of hope the Juneteenth was about people hoping for a better world for a world in which they had to see table in which they were included, and in which racism didn't exist.

and I think that this year is really underscoring that message of hope that we now have more people, particularly members of the white community, taking to the streets because.

Was that message is starting to resonate with them that they want to see and into antiblack racism, so this this hope that you speak of it came out of anger, despair, particularly this year.

Sure, well, much of the African American story comes from this place of oppression of being people who were oppressed for in the United States for 400 years, and but even in the midst of that right, we see these stories of survival and thriving.

We see and talk about at the museum on a regular basis.

The stories of African American women who started their own businesses in a time where very few women in this country had businesses.

And these women didn't even have the right to vote, right?

But they're starting businesses.

We see, you know, stories of civil rights leaders who are fighting for equal pay for teachers.

So even in the midst of oppression, there's always this kind of strand of survival and thriving.

Sherman take you are at least one year older than miss shut.

Give us your perspective.

Thank you Steve.

Well, first of all, how I agree with what miss shots said.

The whole process since the Emancipation Proclamation, as she stated it created, hope it was built in our dreams and aspiration's were built on that hope.

And it was and continues to be.

A frustrating situation when we find out that our dreams are going to be and indeed have been and continue to be Hanford by the hatred and racism that continues to exist.

I think.

And recently his added knew a enthusiasm if you will newenergy to the black community for certain an an an increase number of persons from the white community because we're getting weed.

I'm getting personally, but we, the Urban League we're getting.

Calls from people whites.

Uh, that want to be involved?

They're asking what they can do, how they can do it, and that that gives hope.

But I will also, I'm hopeful becausr.

It's gonna take.

People from both sides of the tracks.

Steve if if if you will, in order and always has.

I mean the civil rights movement of the 60s.

It it it had to have an did have support from the white community as well as the black community and that's why it was able to succeed and gain the.

The uh.

The freedoms that we historically had not enjoy.

That we could enjoy.

Both.

I'm sorry Miss Tate or Mr Sherman.

Both you and Ann Michelle have mentioned this, but Sherman, I'll go back to you for Mr Taylor.

Go back to you first.

Both of you have cited what I think anyone who was watch television or read a newspaper has seen and that is the enormous number of white faces in the demonstrations across the country.

It's not that why people weren't involved in movement days back in the 60s and fifties, 60s and 70s, but at times it was almost a preponderance of white faces in some of these demonstrations.

Which tells us Watt.

Sherman well I lost.

I lost part of you question there, but, uh, uh, if I understand what you were saying this year, just whatever.

Ugly biracial this year or triracial even.

I, I think that, uh, what is happened is individuals from the white community who were not and have not been racist, even though they may have some of them come out of a racist environment.

They want to see things change as well, and they're willing to participate and work with the black community and trying to make these changes come about.

And seeing a Mr Floyd.

And the policeman owned on his neck.

Those are deplorable.

Incidents and actions that I think motivate people of all races, those that care to come forth and say OK enough is enough.

What can we do?

And that's what we're seeing and I'm delighted to see that now I will.

I will close by saying I'm not optimistic.

We can always have those that hate.

But if we can get the majority of the people across this country that says no, we're not going.

We're not gonna tolerate that.

Then we can keep moving and uh, and make a lot of progress all across the board, Steve.

Measured.

Yeah, so I will add to say that I do think social media has had a tremendous impact on the movement because people are seeing things in their face more often and that's not to dismiss Black Death.

That happened before people like Trayvon Martin.

But I think we've seen again, increasingly numbers increasing numbers of people watching online.

I think In addition, people haven't had anywhere to go right.

You can't be distracted by sporting events or other.

You know, going to restaurants or or other things that people would typically do, in part because of the public health crisis related to Cove it.

And so if you're sitting at home and you're watching these things, if you're being isolated in these ways, that's one way in which it add.

The other thing that I can't I am I think it can't be discounted.

Is the fact that we've seen an increasing number of young people so not just just wife, but typically that young UM 16 to 2516 to 30 even people younger than that?

You know I saw some marches with middle school age kids in it, so we're seeing younger people out in the streets marching.

and I think there's been particularly over the last.

I would say three years an increase in.

Young activists you think back to the women's March or March is for science or other of these kinds of large scale March is that people are getting more more interest in getting actively involved in the Democratic process.

That was gonna be my next question.

My shot, and a Sherman Tate as well.

Can this this passion we have seen for issues for justice.

Can it be sustained?

Particularly among the young Misha.

Yeah, I hope so.

I I really do hope that this is something where people won't move on to the next news cycle.

I think there is a real ease and doing this right to move it on, but I will say that there does seem to be something different about this time and not just because we're seeing younger people, but we're also seeing people worldwide.

It's pretty incredible when you see the images out of France in London and the Middle East and just places all around the world where they are marching in solidarity.

For for black lives, so I think that also is telling us that there's something that's a little bit different about this movement that was maybe different from those beforehand, as well as the pretty quick way in which a lot of the kind of corporate.

Owners, corporate sponsors.

Corporate corporations have responded.

No, they've been very quick to.

Claire Juneteenth holiday for their employees, or I think I saw a story about band-aids coming down in different shades, so I think the fact that some of that stuff is happening as well.

I think it's a sign that this may be a new movement, and it will.

Turning point in US history.

Yeah, sure, maintained you have seen you have seen these passions reisen subside over the decades.

Do you see anything different this time?

I do, and uh, miss shots just covered it to a great extent there, but that is we have generations of people both white and black, young to older people that are involved with this stating this displeasure and an participating in the movement that is has taken place and that is growing Anas.

She said one of the unique aspects of what we're seeing now is worldwide.

And I think that speaks volumes and politically.

Is going to be interesting to see that, uh, see if this.

Uh, the the image of our country of America, uh, is is improved and and 'cause it's gonna take good leadership from all walk.

You know, corporate, politically and otherwise.

But the other thing is gonna take some real dialogue at the local level.

And uh, as an example, we through the Urban League we are organizing.

As we speak, a series of community sessions and courses.

Virus is going to hinder us 'cause you can't put a bunch of people in a room.

All you shouldn't put a bunch of people in the room and we're not gonna do that.

But as soon as we can, but on a smaller scale and on the telephone, we're having conversations with people and answering questions and asking them what they want to do and what they are concerned about and how they feel about what they're seeing.

And it's amazing.

Uh, and and the Younger.

A school age kids.

They're involved in it, but again we got to have some dialogue and make sure everybody's on the same sheet of music.

And then we'll educating people regarding the real issues and come up with a with a very valid strategic plan that we can continue to go forward with in addressing these issues from that involve policemen, but far beyond that is it's not just that.

The the policeman policeman doing what they doing it 'cause they're getting encouragement of those that are doing it.

They're getting encouragement from folks that are not policemen.

That says do this and I'll give you 1 example and and uh.

Steve, I spoke against this last legislative session.

The gun laws think about the gun laws and I'm not talking about gun laws with respect to policemen, although there has to be some addressing of how they.

Uh, handle their weapons when they pulled him before they shoot and what the circumstances need to be, but you can go and buy any kind of weapon you want and walk around with it or cared in your vehicle.

You know military assault rifles and all, and when you really think about it, the NRA has influenced through the most conservative groups across this country.

Uh, legislate tours to the extent that these laws have been passed and that makes no sense.

And in a lot of states have implemented to stand your ground, the stand your ground laws and it's gonna come up in our legislature again and we're gonna be up to speaking against it.

These issues have to go with this.

These are examples of what we need to do is as part of the overall agenda to try to get some.

Common sense and some some calmness in the community about.

How you gonna be treated and if a police stops you and so forth.

I hate to have to end it here because but were simply out of time is shot Sherman.

Take thank you both of us thanks to both of you for coming into the conversation.

Thanks so much and will have you back.

Thank you.

Stay tuned.

Something important is coming up.

It's an encore production replay of healing the divide race relations in Arkansas program examining how race permeates affects the lives of arkansans.

My Friend, Doctor Malcolm Glover, an guests, his associates discuss topics.

Rice police brutality racial history disparities community interaction an entire spectrum.

Support for Arkansas week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

The Arkansas times and Kuer FM 89.