Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, The Arkansas Times and KUARFM, 89.

And hello again, everyone, and thanks very much for joining us.

It was hardly unexpected President Biden's plan for Washington to swallow a portion of the almost $2 trillion in US student debt.

Neither was the reaction, pro and con, for the millions of Americans with student loan balances.

There were cheers.

There were Bronx cheers from critics who saw it as one more expensive intervention by government in the marketplace.

Arkansans with higher Ed loans are carrying a startling $16 billion in college debt.

Under Mr Biden's proposal, about 1/3 of that could be absorbed by the government.

But opponents are quick to point out that the government is everyone us.

Many of the Arkansas academic community are supportive of the Biden plan, while most in the state's congressional delegation, for example, are opposed.

And litigation to block the administration's proposal is a certainty up top.

Not the merits of the program, not necessarily, but its mechanics.

We're joined by Tony Williams, director of the Arkansas Student Loan Authority.

And Doctor Jeremy Hopedale, assistant professor of economics at the University of Central Arkansas.

Gentlemen, thanks for coming in.

Tony Williams, we'll begin to you.

This is it's, it's not as simple as well, right off the loan there are some, there is some.

There's some fine print to this.

Bold, bold print, and fine print as well.

There is what we've seen, mainly the bold print so far, and we're waiting to see the fine prints.

It seems like the Department of Education is leaking out bits and pieces of information, but we're not seeing any true guidance in writing up to this point.

We've got the the big picture.

We know that you know who qualifies and and the amounts, you know the 10,000 for most.

Everyone with a federal student loan and yeah Tony, we have a graphic that we can put up here that might might help move along here.

Yes and and that's it.

You know up to $20,000 if you have you were a Pell Grant recipient lower income and and that's probably close to 50% of people with student loans in Arkansas also received a Pell Grant.

And so then yes $10,000 for everyone else is long as your income as an individual is.

Under 125,000 adjusted gross income and 250,000 adjusted gross income for a couple.

And so it's it's a very generous gift to to student loan borrowers.

It's a it's a philosophical question.

It's a fiscal and philosophical question.

Is it too generous or as is argued is it not generous enough?

If if, yeah if you're asking a personal opinion it it's it's very generous.

I I think it changes.

The Federal Student loan program forever.

I don't think it'll ever be the same.

I think we will see increased borrowing in the future due to this because now people will have it in their minds that forgiveness is a possibility and there are friendlier repayment terms also when the President's plan and so it's going to be should be easier for people to repay their student loans in the future, which will probably result in of increased borrowing.

Yeah, we should.

Point out that this plan is not a fait accompli, that even as we speak.

In fact, by the time this program reaches air on Friday night, we're taping on a Friday morning.

But by the time this program reaches here, the first litigation lawsuits that get to seeking to block the plan may have been filed.

At last report, anyway, the opponents were looking for.

That was a matter of legal standing, but but there.

They'll find someone that's sure Jeremy Hospital.

Your thoughts?

I think there's, you know, a lot of important questions here, I think about the future of student loans, too.

I think the big focus now has been on, well, $10,000 and 20,000 for some.

But the changes to the repayment plans, I think, might encourage more students to take on more debt.

And what that means is not just today but over the future course of the student loan and higher education programs, that the federal government's gonna be paying a large portion of it implicitly because they will be either forgiving more debt in the future or essentially subsidizing the payments.

People are making them, which subsidizes now while you're borrowing it.

But for many borrowers they're gonna be paying you know 5% of what's called their discretionary income, right, which is going to be a very small amount.

Most plans now like that are 15 to 20% of your discretionary income and that is the most significant changes and not in future loans that the that the administration is proposing or am I wrong Tony Lee, I believe that that repayment plan will be available to current borrowers and so this will payment plan will be put in effect sometime in 2020.

3.

So we still need to see more details on, you know, from the Department of Education.

Right, opponents and proponents of the Biden plan.

And there are some who say it does not go nearly far enough as as we noted, and others who say it is it's utterly irresponsible.

But I'm noting Jeremy Hordal.

That it cuts across ideological lines.

You have economists on the left and the right, business people on the left and the and and right who disagree about the plan.

Yeah there's a there's a lot of disagreement that doesn't fall along traditional ideological lines.

I think you know if you think about for folks on the left I think that the you know working class base of that of the Democratic Party they're gonna be the ones paying some of the cost of this and if they don't have college loans or didn't even go to college what they're not seeing much benefit I think that you know so that's something which among among the left there is very much disagreement where as many on the left I think see this as as great that the that the student loan burden.

Have been very heavy and hanging over some people's heads for a long time and just, you know, general support for higher education.

So I think this is a debate which is going to be ongoing.

As you said in the intro, this was not unexpected, right.

We, we knew this was coming.

So this debate, we're just kind of in the middle of a long debate that certainly will not end with, you know, the litigation you mentioned.

Yeah.

And I suppose we should mention that this is not the loan, not the first.

A loan forgiveness program or a loan modification program from the Biden administration.

Earlier, there was an initiative regarding a debt owed to for profit institutions.

Yes, the President has helped students who attended for profit institutions with a with repayment or with forgiving their debt already.

And that was under the justification that they did not receive the education that they signed up for and that they paid for.

And so yeah there were cases I'm sure that was that was justifiable the the.

Some of the research that and some of the reading that I have done underscores the fact that higher education can include training in driving a truck.

Or wiring a house blue what are regarded as blue collar jobs and not necessarily someone who's seeking a doctorate in anthropology.

And that that's true.

You know there are trade programs available across the state.

Very good good programs through our public institutions and so you know federal student loans or can be used to pay for those.

And so, you know we we we we support that and and I think it's a good use of.

Federal financial aid dollars, grants and loans.

Any way of knowing Tony Williams?

What percentage of Arkansas student loan debt, or what percentage of of Arkansans with debt are in what are considered trades?

As opposed to professions or you know, we don't have good numbers on that.

You know, we, we we have a lot of numbers on the student loan debt overall and and you mentioned the amount of $16 billion in the state of Arkansas in student loan debt.

That's a huge number and you know it's over $33,000 per borrower and so you know it's about twice the state's general revenue budget 2 years running I think.

And so you know one thing that I think is interesting to point out in this action.

The president.

There will be probably $3 billion forgiven in the state of Arkansas, maybe more depending on, you know, how people participate.

And we'll be back to that fifteen $16 billion level in just a few years.

And so this isn't a this doesn't really fix anything in the process of higher education or student loan borrowing in general.

So it we with the with this can be addressed.

In other ways we are not I think I'm hearing you saying we're not addressing the core issue with this.

I I don't think we are addressing the core issues and and I think Governor Hutchinson suggested lower interest rates.

I think that's a probably a good idea so that it's equitable across the board.

Everyone receives the same percentage benefits and you know and it's something that you can maintain.

We can't maintain free loans you know for in the future.

Sure, Jeremy hospital.

The fact that a great deal anyway, of the student debt applies to those with what are considered blue collar jobs makes it a bit more politically palatable, it would seem.

Yeah.

And you know, like Mr. Williams was saying, we don't have exact numbers for Arkansas, but nationally, you know, we tend to think of this student loan forgiveness as going to those that have undergraduate degrees, graduate degrees, but there's also those that have either two year degrees or trade degrees.

There's also a not insignificant number that don't have a degree at all.

So these are, these are those who have dropped out.

And nationally, you would probably know better than I, but somewhere around 15 to 20% nationally of the total student loan borrowers, they don't have a degree of any sort and they're not even pursuing.

And right now, so there's a lot of people who will benefit from this and very different situations.

Certainly those that have graduate degrees and they have loans, I mean, they have the highest incomes and the lowest unemployment rates, they're probably, you know, the ones where you're not going to get as much sympathy.

But I think that a lot of people who either are, you know, going to those predatory colleges, right, they've already done some of that.

I think there was a lot of sympathy for doing that.

So if we think of, you know, who is going to agree with this as you look across the not only ideological spectrum but the workforce.

There's lots of different people that benefit from this, but I think again to emphasize, like you said earlier, you know this has to be paid for by taxpayers generally, right?

And the way that works is as the government, federal government budgets, they they've budgeted for this revenue coming over their ten year window.

We're writing a check, in other words, for this, well, we're not writing check, we're collecting rush level less revenue, which is functionally the same thing from a budgetary perspective, right.

And a few seconds remaining, one of the big arguments is the time of high inflation and a spiraling national debt.

How big a factor could this be?

You know, in the, in the mix of things, it's it's small, but I'd say it's pushing in the wrong direction.

If you look at the Inflation Reduction Act, which they just passed, which I don't think will actually reduce inflation very much, but it's about the same magnitude, about $500 billion, somewhere in that ballpark that was attempted in an attempt to reduce inflation.

This is putting more money into people's pockets.

That's the benefit of it.

But as you put more money in people's pockets, they spend more and that can drive up inflation even further.

I think it's going to be small overall, but it's it's pushing in the wrong direction.

Jeremy Corporal Tony Williams, thanks very much for coming in.

Thank you for your time and come back soon.

Thank you.

We'll be right back with more on the story.

And we are back leading the charge to discharge student debt, or some of it, is an organization that takes its name from the number of Americans, Arkansans included, who are carrying student debt.

We the 45 million it's called and it's spearhead is a longtime activist and student debtor.

She's Melissa Byrne and she joins us now from upstate New York.

Miss Byrne, thanks very much for coming in and being being a part of the broadcast.

It has to be a time of optimism for you.

Although as we have mentioned earlier in this broadcast, a legal challenges to the Biden program are are all but assured.

Are you confident that what the administration is proposing can withstand a legal challenge?

I see.

Thank you so much for having me and for covering this important issue.

Especially helping people know how to apply and be aware of how to get their student loan cancellation.

I am confident that the White House and the Department of Education have worked really hard to design programs that legal scrutiny and so I am 100% confident that people will be receiving the relief that they are owed.

Realization and others like it, and individuals who support the initiative.

Are you asking the bulk of the majority of Americans to pay for something for a debt that they did not incur?

That's a frequent allegation.

And I think that there's a lot of bad faith allegations that are going on right now.

We used to have high, mostly free public College in our country.

It wasn't until the early 70s when Ronald Reagan was Governor of California that all of a sudden they became envogue to defund higher education.

And then the private banks got involved and they really decided they realized they could make a huge profit off of people going to college.

And that started this whole snowball effect to where we are.

With around 45 million Americans having student loan debt and it impacting people from ages 17 all the way up to like 99 or 100, every part of people's lifespans are impacted.

You have parents and grandparents that are still in debt.

You have people that when they finish up school they have to choose between, can they have right an apartment or do they have all their debt?

And I think in this society we come together to make society function and like we need nurses, we need teachers, we need people who are educated.

And we need to ensure that no matter what.

Where you're born in America, whether you're born poor or you're rich, if you do the work to be able to get into college, you should be able to do that work, do that education so you can start working and then being coming up member of society that's productive.

Those who were perhaps victimized by for profit institutions or bogus institutions have already granted some relief.

But you're a common complaint is that the American taxpayer, many of whom have never been near a college campus.

Are being asked to pay for those the the debts of those who did go to campus and perhaps didn't even finish their education.

Your response to that?

Yeah.

So I think like one, it's a misnomer in terms of thinking about who goes to college.

I think back in like the 60s and the 70s college was a very elite institution that a small percentage of the population attended.

Now about 70% of adult Americans have interacted with the college system, whether it is the votech training that's, you know, you have the trade programs, Community College programs or your more traditional like 4 year degree and graduate degree.

And so we actually about 40% of the people with student loan debt didn't finish up their schooling.

And so I think that's important to understand that it affects all these kinds of families and you also have people who didn't go to college, who have parent plus loans for their kids.

I think that, you know, I don't, you know, I don't own a business, but I'm really happy that businesses got PPP loans.

I'm really happy that restaurants got their restaurant.

We realization plans all the times in society if you don't.

I don't have to benefit from every single program to know that I want my neighbors to get the support that they need because we are all in this together.

Well, some would argue that, while some.

Beneficiaries of the program.

Would are more deserving of relief than others that some of the administration's program is targeted at those who are already in the upper bracket, upper income brackets, or likely very soon will be.

Is the program, in fact, too broad, too expansive?

Too generous?

We're also loans to be cancelled without any means testing or income cap.

So the president's plan is not nearly as robust as I wanted it to be.

So he took a.

Very.

You know, he listened to some of the people who wanted it to be means tested, which also makes it really hard because now people have to file an application, and applications actually make it harder to deliver the relief to the people who need it the most.

I know it's like counterintuitive to how we think about delivering policy, but the folks who, I mean, you have Catherine Rampell at The Washington Post, who keeps talking about lifetime earnings, but you can't eat lifetime earnings.

You're not guaranteed lifetime earnings to be at a certain level.

And so to me, anyone who has the essentially the undergraduate debt you have to.

You have to take out the debt because you don't have the money.

So it's really means tested upon going in and for Graduate School debt.

Like, I want people who grew up poor, who are working class for the middle class to become doctors, to become lawyers, to become architects because our society functions.

When people can get the education that is right for the career path they're going to take and they're going to become productive members of society.

And right now, because of these extreme debt burdens that go back to the defending of higher education and universities.

Making up the defunding of state and federal dollars into the education system through having students borrow at much higher rates, it hurts people.

People aren't buying homes, they're not starting families, they're not starting that business that will then employ people in the community.

So what this debt really does is it allows people to start their businesses, to buy that home to, you know, take care of their kids, put money aside for their kids college.

Because unfortunately we need Congress to fix the college problem.

For cost.

So what I'm hoping is that now that everyone's talking about the cost of college because of this cancellation that in January we can get Congress in shape to deal with making sure people aren't going into debt in the next generation.

Melissa Byrne, we have to end it there because we're simply out of time.

We thank you very much for for joining us.

Thank you for giving us your time.

Come back.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me.

It was great.

And go Razorbacks.

OK.

Thanks very much.

And to Johnson County now and a farm where the Prophet comes from protein but the savings come from the sun.

It's good roots.

Major funding for good roots is provided by Arkansas Farm Bureau.

Arkansas Farm Bureau advocating the interests of Arkansas's largest industry for more than 80 years.

Arkansas counts on agriculture agriculture counts on Farm Bureau.

Additional funding for good routes provided by the Union Pacific Foundation.

OK, there you go.

This is Infinity ranch.

The name kind of comes from the fact that this ranch has been here for the fairness 8th generation, alright.

And our kids are 9th generation and I think just the never ending, you know, making it a place to come back to a place that's sustaining.

So it's infinite.

We won the farm family Environmental Excellence Award and it kind of shows how, you know, we work hard on the farm, we try to do the best we can.

And we try to advocate for, you know, Farm and to do things correct and for the sustainability aspect of it.

So it means a lot because there's a lot of work that goes into it.

It's very important to me to be an advocate of agriculture.

I think in just the industry today there's a lot of misconceptions and so it's important to tell your story.

And if you're not telling your story somebody elses, that's probably not accurate.

Definitely through my work with our own children and then with the 4H program and 4H youth, I tried to raise up little.

Advocates of agriculture, you can get it back to the family farm aspect of it and see how farms are produced and how that's just most of them are a family farm, just like us husband and wife and some kids raising cattle or turkeys or broilers or any other types of animals out there.

Do your food is grown by people just like us all over the country, and there's not that many of them anymore.

So it's a very important job.

Ever since I was little, I've been involved in the day-to-day operations, been around broiler houses.

And been around the cows parents raised me on the farm and that's just all I've known my entire life.

I'll wake up in the morning and I'll go through the turkeys and make sure everything's going alright and there's no problem.

Take a look at the cattle as well and then I'll go to work and then I'll come back and kind of repeat the process, then finally get home, see the kids, relax with them.

To be sustainable for him, you have to make investments for the future.

You can't be so much worried about the short term.

You gotta say, hey, 10 years from now, this is where I want to be.

So you gotta make those key investments.

And we thought maybe solar was a part of it after we had the houses for about a year and we looked at the cost of the electricity cost and thought, well, you know, was looking to sell it.

And so we started looking at different vendors and got some quotes and they gave us a production number, how many solar panels we would need to in order to offset the cost for the farm.

And in farming a lot of times, you know, there's a lot of things that you have to invest in and so it it's kind of looking at it to the long term, you know and maybe that upfront cost, but it's eventually going to pay for itself.

I think we just kind of felt that it was the best decision.

I I wasn't that nervous and I think I always kind of look at it a different perspective.

You know, we hope these kids come back here and run this farm someday and just that it's sustainable and that it's it could help them down the road.

I think that's more important than probably makes you a little less.

Nervous?

So the solar panels, you know, only make power when the, when the sun shining.

If it's cloudy, they'll produce some power.

It won't be as much as if it's a bright sunny day.

And generally they produce the Max power from around 10:00 AM to 2:00 to 3:00 PM you can see it and that'll be the Max power that there is.

It first goes to the poultry houses, the Turkey houses, and then if we're making more power then we're using that just goes back to the grid and we get a credit into the month, into your billing period.

Those credits get deducted from the amount of kilowatt hours that you've used to lower your electric bill.

The solar panels.

They'll last a long time.

They're warrantied for basically 25 years to produce a certain amount of power.

Nothing says they're going to stop working at 25 years.

They'll keep making power as long as they stay in working condition.

And at 25 years they're still supposed to be rated to put out 80% of the rated capacity that there was when they were new.

And if they failed during that time frame, they'll install new ones for you, I think any people who.

Are kind of uncertain or unsure about solar panel.

I think it's that upfront cost is usually what scares them off.

And so I think you have to look at it more as an investment in a long term thing and and that kind of helps the the mindset of saying well can we really you know go take out a loan and get this or whatever you're doing.

I think that's usually where people are kind of nervous and unsure about solar particularly in farming as years go on cost of electricity is going to go up.

I think everybody.

They've seen their if you lived in a house for 10 years, price year, electric bills gone up.

If you're electric cost now is $2000 a month and in 10 years that electric cost could be $4000 a month, but your price is locked in at that $2000 a month.

And then once you get it paid for that solar, solar cost has gone away and the electric cost is basically pretty well free at that point.

So it then that allows your farm to be more economically viable.

I definitely think it was a good decision for us and I would definitely encourage others to look into it and see if it's a good decision for you.

We always want to make this a sustainable farm, a family farm that's here for multiple generations.

We don't want it to stop at 8 or 9, you know, we'd like for it to be 1516.

Keep it going.

We're talking about a tree that we have planted in the in the bottoms there that I didn't know it was planted, but Dad told me about it.

There was playing at the same time one of his brothers was born and you know now that trees, you know, 80 years old and it's a big tree and I've always wanted to do that for my kids and you know times passing by.

But I'd like to get find a good spot put a tree out that way, you know, 40 years, 80 years down the road you get to see that it's still here.

Like I said, we're 8th, 9th generation, you know, you get down to 10th, 11th generation that trees 200 years old.

Well, you still got that tree there in that same spot that you've had for that, that link from that time.

And that's our time for this week.

As always, we thank you for yours and see you next week.

Support for Arkansas Week provided by the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, The Arkansas Times, and K UAR FM, 89.