- Just ahead on "American Black Journal," our "Black Church in Detroit" series examines the impact of artificial intelligence on the church and African American community.

We'll talk about concerns over AI and how churches can respond to this challenge.

Stay right there.

"American Black Journal" starts now.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm Orlando Bailey, sitting in for Stephen Henderson.

Today we're continuing our series on "The Black Church in Detroit," produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

As artificial intelligence becomes a part of our daily lives, the Black church is facing the ethical implications as well as the potential benefits of this rapidly evolving technology.

How should pastors and congregates approach and think about AI?

Here's a portion of a sermon on artificial intelligence given by Reverend Cindy Rudolph of Oak Grove AME Church.

Followed by my conversation with Pastor Rudolph and Reverend Lawrence Rogers of Second Baptist Church.

- AI might have limits, but there is no limit to what my God can do.

AI might be able to process information, but knowledge and wisdom comes only from God.

AI might be able answer your questions, but only God can answer your prayers.

AI might be able to write your paper, but only God can write your name in the Book of Life.

AI might be able to save you time, but only God can save your soul and make you whole.

AI might be able to give you a shortcut, but only God can keep you from cutting short.

AI might be able to give you financial tips, but only God can open up the windows and pour you out a blessing that you won't even have room enough to receive.

AI might be able to help you cheat, but only God can forgive and restore you when you get caught.

AI might be able to be the way of the future, but God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

Hallelujah.

- Reverend Rudolph, Reverend Rogers, thank you so much for joining us on "American Black Journal."

- It is a pleasure to be here once again.

It's always a joy and a delight.

Thank you for having me.

- Yes, it's a pleasure to be here.

Thank you so much.

- No, thank you, thank you.

So I wanna, you know, sort of, have a conversation around artificial intelligence because it is everywhere, and there are many industries that are contending with what it means with the advancement of artificial intelligence.

But you know, the church, and in particular the Black church, has really been sort of left out of the conversation, and you two are bringing this conversation to the forefront.

Why should the Black church, Reverend Rudolph, be paying attention to the advancement of artificial intelligence?

- So artificial intelligence can be both a good and a bad thing.

And on the one hand, we are advancing technologically, and that's a good thing because we always wanna be moving forward as a society.

And with technological advancement comes progress.

However, the caveat is, there are dangers to that as well.

And so for decades, we've seen automation eliminate jobs.

And of course, if we see job elimination that impacts people on an individual as well as a collective level and it impacts the economy.

But my bigger concern is what we see happening and how it's impacting our youth in a myriad of ways.

- Uh-hmm.

- And so it's impacting them academically because, sadly, now with some AI platforms, they are able to take academic shortcuts in ways that will hinder the educational process because they're not able to take part and participate in ways that they would have traditionally, because now they're taking shortcuts, which is not allowing them to learn at the level they should be learning.

The other issue is, emotionally, they're being impacted because of social media.

And the algorithms used...

The AI algorithms used that are designed to engage people, but oftentimes, that's by giving them information that they're young minds are not able to process in the ways that they should.

Often, a lot of inappropriate content.

And so you have parents who are struggling because of all that their children are being exposed to with these algorithms.

Some of them are on social media for hours at a time.

And so it becomes very problematic not only from an academic standpoint, but from a social and emotional standpoint as well.

- And so when that culminates, they have to come and see you for counseling, right?

- Absolutely, absolutely.

Because the problem with the algorithm sending them all sorts of information is, oftentimes, as I said, their minds are not able to process it.

And it causes them, unfortunately, to develop low self-esteem.

Oftentimes, they don't see themselves in the way that they should.

And so we then have to talk with them to allow them to experience self-love, self-compassion, to understand that the perfection that they see out there is not something that's real, it doesn't even exist.

And so there are a lot of ways in which we want to talk to them, build up their self-esteem, teach them how to use AI in a responsible way, and teach parents also to be more vigilant in terms of monitoring their kids.

- Thank you, thank you, Reverend Rudolph.

Reverend Rogers, I definitely wanna bring you in on the conversation and ask you, number one, what are you seeing in your congregation?

And then number two, if I'm hearing, Reverend Rudolph, correctly, how do we figure out how to equitably integrate AI without it being harmful to congregants and to the community that the Black church serves?

- Well, I know that, you know, historically, whenever there's a new technology, you know, people can take a polarized approach to it.

So there's some people who may love it uncritically.

And then there are other folks who may be quite afraid of it.

I mean, this has been the case with everything from power lines to telephone lines to the microwave.

There's always been this polarization.

And I think that AI, similar to the calculator, is a tool that can be used in order to improve quality of life.

It can also be improved to make students stronger, professionals stronger, to help individuals to do their best with whatever they find their hands laying to touch.

I do agree that AI can be rather detrimental.

You know, you think about the ability to make a deepfake, you know, get that in the hands of the wrong people who may want to, you know, do harm or try to cover themselves from some sort of malpractice or whatever.

But I also feel that AI has potential to help humanity to reach another height if we make sure that we dominate it instead of it dominating us.

And for that reason, I think that the Black church has a clarion call right now.

Black labor has been under attack since the invention of the cotton gin.

Technology has competed with Black labor for quite some time, but what we've been able to do is, for the most part, stay ahead of the curve by adapting.

And I think, now, we need another adaptation.

And Black churches, we tend to have capital resources, human resources.

I think these things need to be leveraged in order to bring STEM programs into our churches so that our young people can learn coding, our young people can learn automation, our young people can learn artificial intelligence.

Something I've been very passionate about, I've brought programs to my congregation, have invited the community to come in for free, 'cause what I want is for these fields to be demystified.

And one thing that I find troubling is that typically, in less diverse areas and more resource areas, we find very strong STEM programs teaching these skills.

But in the areas that are more impoverished or darker areas, we find these programs less.

So I do not want our young people to be left outta this economy.

I also don't want them to develop a phobia of the unknown.

Instead, I would love to help them to learn how to charter it in a way that is responsible and also beneficial for their future.

- Young people and older people alike, right?

- That's exactly right.

- In the beginning of your answer, you talked about, sort of, the polarization that comes with new technological advents.

Can you talk to me a little bit about why it is not productive to be afraid of this piece of technology?

- Absolutely, I mean, I think that this technology is something, you know, that is coming.

You know, this is not going to stop, okay?

It's something that is coming.

I do think it's something to be concerned about in the sense of there needs to be some legislation on how it might compete with labor, how it might change the workforce, to make sure that humans are not left behind.

And this is something that the actors who were striking out in California brought up, that, you know, they wanted to make sure that AI did not replace script writers.

That sort of thing needs to be a legislation.

But as far as, you know, the everyday citizen, you know, for me, I'm just not a big fear type of person.

It's probably rooted in my faith.

I'm not a big fear kind of person, but I do know that this thing is unknown.

It's something that's scary, that thinks and can develop ideas, and it can create its own stories and create its own narratives and all these sorts of things.

I mean, something like that sounds very scary, but I do believe that it is possible for us to use it in a way that benefits us, and we can keep it in a controlled environment where it does not harm workforce, so... - Thank you, Reverend Rudolph, I listened to a little bit of your sermon that you preached on Mother's Day of last year, AI versus Real Love.

And you know, even from that time to the time that we are in now, there have been significant advancements in artificial intelligence.

And you sort of, you know, make... You sort of contend in your thesis is that AI cannot replace the pulpit, AI cannot replace the teaching of doctrine and theological information that is sound, right?

Can you talk a little bit about where you stand on that today with the ability now for folks to pick up a phone and hear your voice, but it's not really your voice, or see you say something, but it is not really you saying it?

How do you think the church should contend with mis and disinformation at the advent of artificial intelligence?

- And that's a very real concern because there's so much misinformation and disinformation out there.

And as Reverend Rogers said, the deepfakes and things of that nature, and it's very convincing.

It's so sophisticated that it's very convincing.

And so we have to be discerning, and we have to make sure that we tell people over and over again that now... You used to say, "Don't believe everything you hear," but now you have to say, "Don't believe everything you see," because you might be seeing and hearing something that's actually not real.

But I do want to emphasize that I think one of the things that we need to look at, and I know lawmakers have already started to talk about this to some extent, but I think they need far more conversation on this, but we need to look at AI regulation in terms of what our youth and what our society, overall, what we are taking in.

Because as I mentioned earlier, the algorithms are something that we really need to be concerned about because they're so sophisticated that they can tell how long you spend looking at a particular item, and then they're gonna send more and more of that to you.

And particularly for young minds, if they are constantly bombarded with something that they should not even be looking at, and if the parents are not vigilant in terms of monitoring their children's internet content, not just social media, but what are they surfing, what are they looking at, what are they googling, and all you have to do is come across one thing that's not appropriate, and then you're gonna be bombarded with so much more.

So I think we definitely need to see some lawmakers step up in terms of regulations and putting some sort of guardrails in place, particularly for our youth, so that they're not consumed by this because we do see that it's impacting their emotional wellbeing, their social wellbeing.

Another thing I'm concerned about is they're so technology engaged that they're sometimes not able to be present in the moment.

They are not able to engage with us in ways that are meaningful.

Their interpersonal communication is impeded because they're far more comfortable doing this and communicating electronically.

With regard to what you mentioned earlier, AI not being able to process thought theologically, one of the things as I was researching for that sermon, they said there were different areas in which AI was lacking.

Number one, you might need some human intervention because AI is not perfect.

They do make mistakes.

And they, oftentimes, even with some of those very sophisticated platforms, you will see mistakes out there, and it will require human intervention.

Number two, AI lacks soft skills.

And so they also lack emotional intelligence.

And so they might have the content, but they're not able to decipher and discern, they don't have judgment like human beings do.

There are a lot of soft skills that they don't have and that algorithms and, you know, artificial intelligence cannot function in.

And so those are the ways in which we need to engage.

And those are the ways in which we need to have guardrails in place so that we're making sure that the content that we are using, the content that we are sharing is accurate rather than putting out misinformation and disinformation, which in today's society is very dangerous.

We see a lot going on politically and otherwise, that's very dangerous 'cause the problem is a lot of people believe it.

- Yeah, yeah, it's true.

You know, you and Reverend Rogers both briefly mentioned, you know, policy intervention on a legislative level, and we know historically in this country, the Black church, and its leaders have had an outsized role in influencing legislation that been the arc toward justice.

What is or what should be the Black church's policy advocacy strategy nationwide, but more specifically here in the state of Michigan, Reverend Rogers?

- Yes, absolutely, that is a great question.

And I think that one of the key focuses that Black church must have when it comes to organizing around legislation, I think what we really need to focus on, really, is the economic threat that not only AI, but the emerging technocracy has when it comes to Black folks.

Again, as I pointed out earlier, this is something that's a serious concern.

And I believe that our ability to advocate for ourselves and protect ourselves has been directly connected to our ability to offer something to the American economy.

We oftentimes forget that a major part of Dr. King's platform and strategy was taking Black labor and having them not go to work.

So it was messing with the economy, and that pressured us, the business owners, and therefore, society, to create social change.

So if Black labor is weakened even more, we will become more vulnerable.

So we have got to protect Black economic, might protect Black labor from being exploited.

I think that this narrative is very heartfelt for Detroit.

Detroit has seen what automation has done and robotics has done to Black labor force.

Imagine that on a scale that's 20 times, 30 times, probably even more worse, okay, it is very, very detrimental.

So we've got to protect the Black labor force and make sure that humanity, human dignity, is protected.

Furthermore, furthermore, when it comes to protecting the children, I completely agree about the problems of the algorithm.

And another major blind spot that we have is that schools oftentimes give young people devices, iPads, computers, or tell them to go home and use one, and these devices have insecure firewalls, insecure security.

And this brings me to another serious point, and that is one of cybersecurity.

There have been some lawmakers that have proposed some ideas, rather radical ideas, but ideas such as having a internet license, having an identifier where you can no longer be on the internet anonymously.

I know that sounds very radical, but we are really at a time now where the misinformation and disinformation is so terrible where people are purposefully putting out content to target young people to create poor outcomes for them or unfavorable outcomes that we need to have a serious conversation about improving cybersecurity.

There have been several congressional hearings with the tech industry, Mark Zuckerberg and others.

I had the pleasure of meeting with Senator Peters not too long ago, and I also asked him about this because this is a serious matter, and we are watching what it's doing to young people's mental health right now.

We see a constant decline, self-cutting is up, suicide is up amongst young people because of these factors.

So I think that we need to do a two-pronged approach.

One of 'em has to do with security and protecting our youth, but the other one has to do with protecting the economic might of not only the Black dollar, but of Black labor.

AI and automation stands to wipe out many, many, many jobs.

So what we've got to do to both hand situation?

We've got to, on one hand, we must find ways where we can prepare ourselves for this emerging economy, make sure that our young people are prepared for these jobs that are coming.

But on the other hand, we've got to protect people in the workforce now, and we have to protect young people from being corrupted.

The story of John Henry, it's about a Black man who was competing with technology to the point where it killed him in the end of the story.

We need to make sure that we are not in the position of John Henry, where we find ourselves completely exhausted and destroyed because we are struggling to compete with an emergent technology.

We need to make sure that we dominate it and it doesn't dominate us.

- Thank you, Reverend Rogers.

Reverend Rudolph, I want to ask you about, you know, policy advocacy as you see it, because you spend a lot of time in that space.

Sort of close this conversation to us around what the Black church should be doing and is doing.

- I think it behooves us to walk hand in hand with our lawmakers and make sure that they are keenly aware of the issues that our folks are wrestling with in terms of the challenges that AI poses.

And so looking at much like what Reverend Rogers mentioned earlier about how the writers and actors guild strikes were focused largely on AI and the threat that AI poses, I think what we may need to do is have some more conversations so that we can collectively come together, recognizing what the threats are on the Black community, on the Black economy, on all of those things, on how our young people are being socially and emotionally impacted.

And coming up with some of those recommendations, bringing those to our lawmakers so that we can put those guardrails in place that are necessary to protect our young people and to make sure that our people are blooming and thriving in a myriad of ways.

- Wow, well, I think that is the perfect button to put on this conversation.

Reverend Rudolph, Reverend Rogers, thank you so much for this conversation here on "American Black Journal."

- Absolutely, thank you.

- Thanks you, Orlando.

It's been our pleasure.

- All right, that's gonna do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guest at americanblackjournal.org.

Plus connect with us anytime on social media.

Take care.

We will see you next time.