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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

We kick off the program with State Assemblywoman Ellen Park from the 37th Legislative District.

She's coming to us from Englewood, New Jersey, her district's in Bergen County.

Assemblywoman, great to have you with us.

- Thank you for having me.

- There are so many things I wanna talk to you about, but I just wanna also acknowledge this, you were the first Korean American woman to serve in the state legislature, correct?

- That is correct.

It's been a great honor and pleasure for the last two years, and hopefully, the next two as well.

- Why has it taken so long for that to happen?

- You know, it's really hard to say because, you know, I think there was just a lack of candidates perhaps, and maybe also lack of support, but you know, it's great that this has happened and I hope that we can have more of us coming forward.

- So, 11% of the population, Asian American population in New Jersey is 11%, but a much smaller percent, percentage of representation in the legislature.

Talk to us from your perspective, Assemblywoman, about how you view, and it's not monolithic, but how the Asian American community perceives and engages or does not engage in the political process, please.

- I think, you know, because still most of us are still, you know, first generation now.

I'm what we call 1.5 generation.

I was, came here a very early age, I wasn't born here.

My kids obviously are the next generation, but we're immigrants so we're here to have a good education, have a great place to live, but it's, you know, politics is not our focus.

But more and more of us now, we're really pushing what it means to have representation.

And so, that is definitely one of my goals and missions to get more of us out to vote.

- Assemblywoman, you were on this, I don't know whether to call it a trade mission.

I know that the folks at Choose New Jersey helped to finance this.

It was a trip with Governor Murphy and a whole range of other state leaders into East Asia, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, a nine-day trip back in October.

What was and is the significance of that trip, please?

- It's, you know, we do a lot of trade with those three countries in New Jersey.

I believe those three countries, those three Asian countries are top 10 supplier of goods and they have a lot of trade between New Jersey and those countries.

So, we wanna keep the relationship, we wanna do more, we wanna have a bridge between the countries as far as economics as well as, you know we had the nine universities from New Jersey also attend, so for higher education as well, we wanna keep that bridge, we wanna have that relationship.

So it was really important.

- Talk to us about this.

I believe that every elected official who's come on, I've asked in one way or another, this question as the graphic comes up, 2024, Decision 2024 and '25, there's a governor's race in '25, Democracy in Danger.

To what degree do you believe?

And some folks have written online saying, "Steve, stop calling it a democracy.

We're a republic."

I get it, I understand what the constitution says, but when I say democracy in danger, people know what that means.

To what degree do you believe our representative democracy is in danger as we move into 2024?

- I mean, this country has been so divided in the last four years.

So, and with what happened with January 6th, honestly, I'm pretty shocked.

I've been in this country now for 45 years and I try to keep up with what's going on in the world and it just really, I'm just flabbergasted because you know what's happening all across the world as well, in South America, what's happening with Ukraine.

I feel that it's gonna happen here in the U.S. as well.

And it's just really concerning and disturbing to be honest.

- So put this in perspective for us.

You're in the state legislature, in the assembly.

Back in the mid-1980s for, in baseball it's called a cup of coffee, which means a very short period of time.

I was in the state legislature for, you may have read the history books, it was one term (laughs) and out quick.

But there's a reason I'm asking this question and putting it in context.

Put in context for people what it's like to be in a State Assembly, a State Senate chamber, United States Congress, House of Representatives chamber, and have people trying to break in to stop the legal constitutional process with violence and target people they don't like.

Please.

- It's again, the violence.

And again, New Jersey has one of the best controls when it comes to gun control, and the fact that our country is the only country in the world that has mass shootings every day almost, and the fact that violence is tolerated in this country is really concerning and disturbing.

But as a parent, I'm very concerned for my children every day that they go to school, 'cause you just never know.

And we really need to take better precautions, measures as far as gun control and the state of violence in this country.

- Are you afraid for yourself?

- Sometimes.

I know we just passed legislation that judges' informations don't float out there, but we definitely need to have the elected officials' information also not floating out there.

That's something that we were trying to work on as well.

- Governor Murphy has called you a rising star in the political scene, and that's nice and it's nice to have it said about you, but as the first Korean American woman to be in the state legislature, lemme ask you this.

Top two priorities for you.

You've talked about gun control.

Beyond that, two top priorities for you that would be important, not just to the Korean American community, but for everyone you represent, please.

- Obviously, gun control is one.

I believe in equal rights for everyone.

I mean, that's one of the reasons why my parents came to this country is that as an immigrant you have basic rights as anyone who's been here for the last three generations.

And so, you know, LGBTQ community, any minorities, we should have the exact same rights as anyone else.

So, that's a second priority.

As well as, you know, I feel that education is the only way out of poverty.

That's culturally what we push in the Asian community is that if you are educated or you work hard at school, that you will never have to starve.

So, I think that we need to bring that into also consideration and light.

- Before I let you go, real quick on childcare, childcare, affordable, accessible, quality childcare and it's a connection to the economy, a priority for you as well?

- Absolutely.

There's a lot of single mothers in the U.S. and we need to help them get ahead, give them childcare subsidies, get them better educated so they can move up in the corporate world and have stability in their lives.

- State Assemblywoman Ellen Park from the 37th Legislative District up in northern Bergen County, the first Korean American woman to serve in the state legislature.

Assemblywoman, thank you so much for joining us.

We wish you all the best.

- Yeah, thank you for having me.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're now joined by Dr. Peter Woolley, Founding Director of the School of Public and Global Affairs at Fairleigh Dickinson University.

Good to see you, my friend.

- Good to see you, Steve.

Thanks for letting me be here.

- Well, it's been too long, and this school that you are involved in, this particular program at Fairleigh Dickinson is more important now than ever.

Question.

And I know this sounds like a weird question, but as the graphic Democracy in Danger comes up, we just did an interview with Governor Murphy that you may have known about, and I asked, "Is democracy in danger?"

And hundreds of people on different social media sites saying, "Adubato, we're not a Democracy, we're a Republic."

And I'm like, "Yeah, I know, I know, I get that part."

But is the question, "Is democracy in danger?"

the inappropriate question 'cause we're not a democracy?

- No, I think that's a perfectly appropriate question.

It's also true that we're a Republic.

We're a Democracy that's limited by a whole complication of processes, which are meant actually to limit the dangers of democracy that is the dangers of people to themselves.

So the Framers who wrote the Constitution were well aware of many examples of democracy in action, beginning with ancient Athens where things went wrong, where people basically, in a democratic fashion, drove the bus right off a cliff.

- So the term populism, right?

- Yeah.

- Is that what you just referred to, Peter?

First of all, what is populism, A?

And B, why is populism potentially dangerous for democracy?

- Populism is an oversimplified view of, and usually an emotional view, of sometimes complicated events.

And what we do with populism when it becomes dangerous is we amplify it.

Populism in the United States has always been with us and will always be with us.

However, in the past, it's been really limited to local geographies, and the authors of The Federalist Papers would've argued that one of the brilliant consequences of the Constitution they produced was that it would keep the conflagrations, meaning the populous wildfires contained in the state structure.

It's not really happening that way anymore.

We have nationalized local politics.

- Speaking of nationalizing local politics, let's internationalize, let's globalize, if you will, because it's the School of Public and Global Affairs.

Question, Peter, you've been at this for a long time.

You headed up the FDU poll, which, reputation speaks for itself, very well-respected.

- Thank you.

- Question.

How tough is it to have meaningful, honest, candid, respectful, civil dialogue about international affairs these days, particularly as it relates to the Israeli-Hamas conflict?

- It's very tough.

It's very, very tough.

And remember, at root, the human being is an animal.

And at root, that animal is very emotional.

So the whole trick to being the best human being you can is to harness those emotions.

It is to control them when you can and enjoy them when it's appropriate.

When it comes to strongly emotional, complex, deeply meaningful international conflicts like the one we're witnessing now between Israel and Hamas, it's natural that people are gonna become so engrossed that the conflict will increase rather than decrease.

- But Peter, along those lines, what do you see?

Again, we're taping this program in the middle of December.

It'll be seen in 2024.

We just saw congressional testimony of three Ivy League presidents.

- We did.

- Not sure as this, when this airs how many will still be presidents.

Question.

- Right, right.

- What do you see as the role of higher education in providing a safe, civil, respectful platform for these discussions where people feel safe to be who they are, to say what they believe without fear of violence?

- Yeah, that is the role of universities, to provide that appropriate arena for debate, for argument, and for learning.

I think a lot of people would say universities have not done a good job at that, even though their best intentions are to provide that safe space.

The safe space is not to protect people from other people's speech.

The safe space is to have the argument in, and to learn from it, and to grow in your ability to debate effectively.

Universities, I think, have erred on the side of safe space, rather than on the side of, "Let's have it out and let's learn how to do it right."

And I think when those presidents went into, fronted by members of Congress, they were academics, rather than speaking to some very practical political balances that needed to be addressed.

- You know, Peter, you've said, and I think you told our producers this.

But if I'm wrong, correct me.

We're talking about Donald Trump, Democracy in Danger.

And you said, "Look, many people think if Trump went away, the problem would go away too."

But 74 million people voted for him in 2020.

- That's right.

- That whatever that is ain't going away if Donald Trump is not on the national scene.

Help folks understand that and why that's important, Peter.

- So the conversation is often about Donald Trump as the cause of this problem.

Donald Trump is the symptom of the problem.

74 million people who embrace a person who has repeatedly repudiated democratic norms, they are the problem.

They're at least, in part, the problem.

Now, that's not necessarily a new problem, but it has come to a crescendo here with the election in 2020, '16 of a guy who said he wouldn't accept the results if he lost.

That was- - I'm sorry for interrupting, Peter.

Given what former President Trump has said about a...

If he were to be elected in 2024, A, joking or not, not sure about being a dictator; B, getting back at those who he believes have aggrieved him, opposed him, what do you believe a potential second term for former President Trump would mean to our Representative Democracy-slash-Republic?

- Well, I think I will just say in general, you ain't seen nothing yet.

The retribution, and the incompetence, and the ideologues will spark a conflict that we haven't experienced probably since the 1960s.

Now, that's why I say this isn't this...

The wheels have come off or nearly come off before.

In my lifetime and yours, that was the 1960s with the conflagration of the Vietnam War with missteps of the national government in so many ways, all kinds of environmental changes taking place in the political environment, in technology.

We're in that place again.

- Peter Woolley is the professor... Peter Woolley is the Founding Director of the School of Public and Global Affairs at Fairleigh Dickinson University.

Peter, I promise we'll be back to continue these important conversations with you.

All the best to you and the folks at FDU.

- Thank you, thank you very much.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We're now joined by State Senator Joseph Pennacchio who is the Deputy Republican Leader in the State Senate of New Jersey.

Senator, great to see you, as always.

- Thanks for having me on, Steve.

Merry Christmas.

- We're taping right before Christmas.

We'll be seen in 2024.

Senator, let me ask you this.

The election in November spoke for itself.

People can decide what it means, but on parental rights, you and many of your colleagues were saying, "Hey, parents are getting cut out of certain information "about their children that they should have," and it was a huge issue for you and many of your Republican colleagues.

And the argument didn't seem to convince enough people for the Republicans to gain more seats.

In fact, you lost them.

What's the parental rights issue for you, and why do you think it's not as popular as some people expected it to be?

- Well, regardless of the election, Steve, I think it still is a very huge issue 'cause it's a fundamental right of parents.

It's a constitutional moral right that the ultimate decision for whoever and whatever is in the best interest of that child lies with the parents.

- Okay, but here's the thing.

We actually had Governor Murphy on and I asked people to check our website out.

SteveAdubato.org will come up on the screen.

And I asked the governor about that.

I said, "Governor, look, if a parent needs to know that their kid's going to the Turtle Back Zoo or going on a field trip and they have to sign off, why wouldn't they have to know if a 10-year-old child in school said something to a teacher, to an administrator, someone about their confusion about their sexual orientation or their gender?"

And he said, "Steve, in theory, the parents should know, but not every parent is as supportive and loving, and that child could be put at risk."

What do you say to that argument, Senator?

- So that's a specious argument there.

If somebody thinks that a parent, whatever, dare hurt a child, there is many venues where a teacher, an administrator or anybody can go to try to help that child.

So, you know, that argument to me gives, it's not, it doesn't carry any weight.

Here is what the statistics say, and this is by some of the gay rights group.

If you have a sexual dysphoria, between 50 and 60% of those children that have got those dysphorias contemplate suicide.

As adult, over 40% of the people that have transitioned, 40% have actually attempted suicide.

So before a child puts themselves in harm's way, before a parent has to visit the morgue, or worse yet, see their child dead in a morgue, this is something that maybe that the parent should be seeking counseling with that child exactly what's going on with them.

- But just, before I leave this, Senator, so you're saying you can't imagine a parent ever not being supportive of their child who was questioning their sexual orientation or their gender?

You're convinced that every parent in every case would always be supportive?

And respectfully, Senator, you know that's just not true.

- Well, yeah, but the opposite's not true, either, to think that 100% of the parents would not be supportive.

First of all, most of those sexual dysphoria issues, they go away by the time puberty reaches.

It's said, they're not sexual identity issues.

They're sexuality issues.

They're gay issues, not sexual, not- - Why do you do call it, Senator, respectfully, you're calling someone sexual orientation or what they believe their sexual orientation to be "sexual dysphoria."

What adjective are you using?

- Well, that's the name of it.

That's what they call when you don't think that your body is housing the right gender.

It's a sexual dysphoria.

Not my term.

That's a scientific- - One second, Senator.

Are you saying that's someone's sexual orientation is sexual dysphoria as well?

- Sexual orientation?

You're telling me- - Yeah, they believe that they're gay.

- Steve, no, wait.

That's a sexual identity issue, not a sexual dysphoria.

Sexual dysphoria means that you don't know if you're a man, or you don't know if you're a boy or a girl depending on what age.

What I am saying is that a seven, eight, nine-year-old child, many who still believe in Santa Claus, should not be indoctrinated into thinking that perhaps you're thinking one way and you're allowed to be a boy or a girl or whatever you want to be.

Maybe that's an issue that the parents should have in consultation with perhaps some help, some medical advice to see exactly what's in this child's mind before the child hurts himself.

- Senator, respectfully, who's indoctrinating a child to believe that?

I'm not sure where that came from.

- Well, all the, you're getting rid of the pronouns.

You're having children, and the law itself, by the way, states that the diversity, inclusion, and equity issues, which teach us all this, starts from kindergarten to 12th grade.

You know any type of teaching that happens, Steve, in school up until nine, 10 years old, it's all indoctrination 'cause these kids don't have the cognitive ability in order to be taught objectively.

It's all subjective learning.

You learn your ABCs and you learn your math through rote.

These kids believe what the teacher tells them.

So if they're being told, "Look, today, if you don't feel like you're a boy "or you don't feel like a girl, "you know, just let us know "and we'll change your pronoun for you."

I think that's misguided, and I also think it's very dangerous for a child to be subjected to that.

- Senator, you have very strong views on a whole range of issues, and I'm curious about this.

Do you believe that the 2020 election was legally, officially won by Joe Biden and lost by Donald Trump?

- Well, the issue if it was won or lost, it's not up to Gill Pennacchio, but it was up to Donald Trump to make that case, and that case was never made.

Do I believe that there was some nefarious things that happened?

I do.

I think it happened more so because it was all voted by mail.

And this is not me talking.

You have Jimmy Carter as well as whoever, the Republican bipartisan commission.

They said that if you're gonna commit fraud in elections, most likely it's gonna be committed through the mail.

So to me, if you have one vote that's illegal, that's one vote to make- - Did Donald Trump lose the election?

- Obviously he lost the election.

Isn't Joe Biden the president?

- Yep.

Okay, and I just wanna be clear.

So the argument that the election was stolen, you don't believe?

- Which election?

2016 with Russia collusion?

Or- - 2020.

- Well, 2020, there's arguments on both sides.

I guess you gotta pay attention to who's narrative you believe.

- Well, what do you think?

I'm asking you, Senator, do you believe the 2020 election was quote-unquote stolen as the former president says, and many, many New Jerseyans and Americans believe.

What do you believe?

- No, Joe Pennacchio believes that it was up to President Trump to make that determination through the courts, and it just never happened.

- If president, former President Trump is a convicted felon by the time the election is held, Chris Christie was one of the only ones in Republican debates recently who said he would not support him.

Would you support President Trump if he were a convicted felon at the time of the election in 2024?

- In the election by the people?

Why don't we wait to see what happens?

That's too much of a hypothetical for Gill Pennacchio to make a decision one way or the other right now, Steve.

- But it's an open question.

You would consider supporting him if- - I gave you an open answer.

It's an open answer.

The answer's, I don't know.

- No, it's either yes or no.

- In the history of this country, has anybody ever been elected after they've been indicted and convicted of a federal- - No.

- No.

So, what...

So, for Gill Pennacchio to give you an answer to 250 years of American history has never happened, why would I want to subject myself to giving you an answer?

- Because it's interesting.

It was a question in the Republican debate for candidates running for president, and all of them except for former governor Chris Christie said they would not support him, or said they would support him, so it's a legitimate question.

Okay.

You're saying it's an open question.

Senator, let me ask you this, final question.

To what degree do you believe our democracy is in danger right now?

- Well, democracy is always in danger, and good things happen... Bad things happen when good people do nothing.

I think John Stuart Mills says that.

So- - That's right.

- Get involved.

You have to be involved.

I have to be involved.

People with opposing views have to be involved, and we've gotta follow the letter of the law.

- Agreed.

Senator Joe Pennacchio is the Deputy Republican Leader in the Senate, and we thank him for joining us.

Thank you, Senator.

- Thanks for having me, Steve.

- You got it.

Thank you everyone, and we'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Johnson & Johnson.

Veolia, PSE&G, New Brunswick Development Corporation.

Operating Engineers, Local 825.

Eastern Atlantic States Regional Council of Carpenters.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

And by these public spirited organizations, individuals and associations committed to informing New Jersey citizens about the important issues facing the Garden State.

And by Employers Association of New Jersey.

Promotional support provided by Northjersey.com and Local IQ.

Meadowlands Chamber.

Building connections, driving business growth.

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