♪♪♪ announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson-Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report."

As Utah's Attorney General announces he will not seek reelection, candidates line up to fill the state's top law job.

Elected officials weigh in on free speech on college campuses.

And the governor announces his major funding priorities as the state budget numbers firm up.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason Perry: Good evening, and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, Director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week we have Emily Anderson Stern, state watch reporter at the Salt Lake Tribune; Sean Higgins, political reporter with KUER; and Jay Evensen, opinion editor with the Deseret News.

Thank you so much for being with us this evening as we talk about a lot of things happening in politics in Utah and nationally.

I want to start with the big announcement this week with you, Jay.

The Attorney General, Sean Reyes, announced by video that he is not going to seek re-election next year.

Talk about the implications of that announcement.

Jay Evensen: He made the announcement on a video, as you said, on social media, so he didn't take any questions.

But he did say that he had met with the women who are suing Tim Ballard for alleged sexual assault and that type of thing.

And he had met with them over several days and listened to their arguments, and he said that he believed them.

And this is an about face for him.

He had been accused of trying to interfere with investigations into Tim Ballard.

So, he said he was not going to be running for reelection, but that his office would be opening an investigation on Tim Ballard.

This comes amid also the legislature approved an audit, an internal audit of his office, so this is the third attorney general in a row in the state of Utah that has left under a cloud of some type of scandal.

And it's causing some people to think maybe we need to appoint our attorney general instead of elect.

Jason Perry: So Emily, that is true, right?

Some of our legislature, some members have talked about doing this, and it seems like that's not a thought that they are dismissing very quickly.

Emily Anderson Stern: Right, and it's interesting, because some of the past attorneys general who have left under scandal, the legislature has tried before to find ways to fix this, right?

They created the Executive Branch Ethics Commission.

That hasn't-- nothing has really come out of that in the years that it's existed.

And so, now, you know, lawmakers said-- some people were wondering if with Sean Reyes not running next year, if we still need the audit.

And lawmakers said, "Yeah, we still need the audit, because we need to figure out why this keeps happening."

So, it's-- we'll see if they want to try and find a way that attorneys general are appointed, or if they try to find some other way to fix what they see as an issue.

Jason Perry: Yeah, Sean, so it does seem true that the legislature has looked at this, and they said, "Okay, we got the announcement, but we're still going to continue," because they have their eyes on how they will form that office going forward.

Sean Higgens: Yeah, I think it reflects an interesting political trend we've seen over the last few years of an increasing politicization of attorneys general offices across the country, whether it's in red states going after things like abortion, like we just saw in Texas with Ken Paxton.

Sean Reyes has definitely leaned into a little bit more of the political side of things, taking strong stances and being very upfront with where he wants to take the state.

Then on the Democratic side, you have Letitia James in New York with all the cases against Donald Trump.

And I think taking a serious look at making this an appointed position rather than an elected one is maybe an effort to bring some, I mean, bring a little bit of, I mean, I hate to use the cliche, but Utah way back into the attorney general's office of making it a place for everyone in Utah, and not just someone who is a red meat Republican.

Emily Anderson Stern: Well, and one thing I will say about changing it to an appointed position is Sean Reyes was appointed when he initially came into the office.

And so, will that actually fix the issue?

What other safeguards might be put in place?

Jay Evensen: That's a very good point.

And you know, the interesting thing is there is no perfect way to run a democracy.

And, of course, on the federal level, the president appoints the attorney general, and that hasn't kept that from being a problem from time to time.

So, if he's appointed, he or she is appointed, that is also highly political, because the governor is going to want to pick someone who he feels is loyal to his agenda.

And sometimes, you know, that creates problems as well.

So, I spoke with Senator Mike McKell the other day.

He's thinking about running a bill to change this to an appointed position.

There are only seven states in the country that have appointed attorney generals, forty-three others are like us here in Utah.

It'll be interesting to see if this record now of three straight attorney generals will be enough to change some minds at the legislature, because this came up 30 something years ago and was defeated.

Jason Perry: We're already seeing some candidates line up.

In fact, one announcement, Sean, Derek Brown has announced that he's going to be running for this particular position.

But it's an interesting kind of connection to this is that it is former Governor Gary Herbert, who is helping to help with his campaign, helping to get him connected.

And he's also the person who did appoint Sean Reyes.

Sean Higgens: Yeah, it's a very interesting dynamic.

And I think one thing we've learned, particularly with the Congressional District 2 race, the power of endorsement is very strong here in Utah.

And to have a name like Gary Herbert backing a campaign this early in the process, I think kind of signals where the quote unquote "establishment," if you will, wants this race to go.

But like you said, it's super early.

The other contenders are very unclear right now.

A couple names are floating around, but Derek Brown is the only one who's said he wants this job.

Emily Anderson Stern: What I will say is interesting.

I think it was it the Deseret News and Hinckley Institute of Politics that ran the poll running Derek Brown up against Sean Reyes?

And Sean Reyes had the lead in that poll.

So, you know, another potential name that's been floated was Melissa Holyoak, who is the Solicitor General under Sean Reyes.

And so, you know, if she jumps in, will Utahns see that she's been working in the AG's office?

And will she get some of that support too?

Jason Perry: We've not run that poll yet, but there are many polls out there that are trying to gauge the interest in that particular race.

We're watching closely.

Are you seeing, like, legislators and others, Emily, who want to jump into this race?

Emily Anderson Stern: Well, what I'm curious, you know, I-- again, you know, Utah's a red state, and it'll likely be a Republican that ends up in the position.

But I'm curious if Andrew Stoddard jumps in.

He has pushed for Sean Reyes's impeachment before.

He's an attorney.

There are a number of attorneys in the legislature who we could see seek higher office, who've thought about it before, who've thought about running for Congress, and, you know, maybe they'll look at a statewide position.

Jay Evensen: It's one of those races that it's difficult for voters.

How do you tell who's going to be a good attorney general?

And so, it comes down to things like endorsements and that type of thing.

But it's difficult.

It's, you know, we have a number of those races, particularly on the local level, if you're an auditor and assessor and that type of thing.

An attorney general, though, is a much more important office, but I think it's hard for voters to make a decision.

Jason Perry: I want to switch gears for a moment to an issue that is certainly raging here in Utah, but across the country.

And this is the issue of free speech on college campuses.

And I say this is national, because we see presidents testifying before Congress about this.

It's taken down at least one president this last week.

But Sean, give us a little flavor right here, because our own Board of Higher Education for the state of Utah this past week came out with a resolution saying universities-- these are state-run universities-- are out of the political statement business.

No more political statements from universities.

Talk about that.

Sean Higgens: Yeah, I mean, this is a debate that's been going on in the country since at least the Vietnam War.

What is the place of the university?

Is it a place for safe learning?

Is it a place to exchange ideas where-- and interact with people who do not think the way you think?

In this statement, Utah is kind of taking a stand that this is a place where you need to be challenged intellectually and politically.

And we've certainly seen a lot of pushback just in the last handful of years with the racial justice movement during the COVID pandemic.

And then now with everything going on between Israel and Hamas really tearing campus communities apart, whether people who are pro-Palestine or pro-Israel.

And I think this is an effort to kind of cool the temperature a little bit, but it seems to have-- not the opposite effect, but it's definitely irritating some people.

Jason Perry: So, Emily, this seems to be something that's happening with universities is students, key stakeholders saying, "I demand a statement.

You need to condemn something or support something."

Where do you see this going here in Utah when it looks like for the universities, it's been said, you need to stay down on those comments, but how this impacts the students themselves?

Emily Anderson Stern: Well, I think something that's interesting is even in the past, a lot of the universities in Utah have kind of tried to stay middle of the road with a lot of these issues, and what this really-- this really brings up the question is, what is political?

The debate of, you know, something that's been brought up with these discussions.

The Governor Spencer Cox in his town hall this week said that he wants to take a big look at diversity programs at the universities in the state.

He says they become very political and more divisive than unifying.

But some people would say that they don't feel like the actions that those programs have taken are political.

They think that some of those actions are just things that make the universities a more inclusive space to all of its students.

So, you know, it's hard to say where this might go.

A number of lawmakers have been looking at this issue and have been talking about it for quite a while now.

And so, we could see a number of bills that would impact that.

But Governor Spencer Cox also said that we can expect to hear more from him in the coming months about these diversity programs.

Oklahoma's governor actually just put out an executive order essentially banning diversity programs at state institutions in the state.

So, Governor Spencer Cox certainly could take action himself.

Sean Higgens: The legislature's looked at this in the past.

Just last year, Senator Johnson proposed a bill to eliminate these DEI programs.

He pulled it at the time, said it needed more research.

It was looked at during the interim.

So, I fully expect that to be taken up again come January.

Jay Evensen: Getting back to the neutrality issue, I think this gives universities cover, because a lot of them get in trouble for not taking positions on issues, but now they can say, well, the Board of Higher Education says we can't do that, and so, you know, end of discussion.

So, it gives them a little bit of cover from some of the critics.

Jason Perry: What do you make of this First Amendment question, Jay?

You've been connected to this issue for such a very long time.

The implications for that on universities, but also the dialogue itself, and as we just discussed, how it does seem to get connected to equity, diversity, and inclusion programs?

Jay Evensen: Yeah, you know, I think we've kind of forgotten the purpose of the First Amendment.

It doesn't exist to protect speech that we agree with.

It exists to protect speech that's offensive or that we disagree with.

And I think the idea of universities as a free place for the free exchange of ideas is a great one and goes to the reason we have universities.

And I think we need to have places where there can be that free exchange of ideas no matter how offensive, no matter how it may upset people, without repercussions, you know, as long as you don't get violent.

I think we've stepped away from that a little bit.

And we want everyone to take sides and we want to, you know, push our side as right and you have to be quiet.

Jason Perry: Do you have a comment on that?

Sean Higgens: I mean, it's like I said earlier, it's just this debate that's been going on for decades in the United States.

What is the role of the American university?

And I think it's been simmering under the surface for a long time.

I know there have been students at various universities who have boycotted conservative speakers coming to campus.

And now we have this new wave with--fueled by the feelings of the Israel-Hamas War that are fueling this new movement of, hey, maybe universities need to take a step back on all this.

Jason Perry: We're going to be following this one very closely, because I think it's going to continue to be discussed on campuses and in Congress.

Can we talk about the governor's budget for a moment, Emily?

So, the governor had his big rollout, took a couple of days to put out the top priorities.

And this is a responsibility of the governor to put a budget together and relay that to the legislature.

This was a $29.5 billion budget, the biggest budget in the history of the state of Utah.

Emily Anderson Stern: Right, and there was a lot to it.

But the biggest parts of the budget, what he called it his centerpiece, were initiatives to create more affordable housing and to try to curb homelessness in the state.

You know, he wants to put more money toward helping first time home buyers actually purchase and own a home.

It would build off of a bill that the legislature passed last year that prioritizes funding to help people buy homes, but those have to be new developments.

And, you know, also looking at homelessness, he put a lot of money toward trying to fund what state officials call the sequential intercept model, really trying to end chronic homelessness so folks that may be struggling with addiction or mental health crises getting the help they need.

Jason Perry: Yeah, so this is an interesting and huge amount of money that Emily just brought up for the homeless population to support them, $193 million, Sean, is how much money he is recommending to go towards these programs.

And I mention this not just because there's a lot of money, but it's interesting that this is the state stepping into what is often a local issue.

Sean Higgens: Yeah, I think particularly in Utah, this is a nationwide issue I think is what we all need to recognize.

Utah is not the only state that is dealing with this.

And Salt Lake--oops--Salt Lake City is not the only city in Utah that is dealing with this as well.

And I think as we saw illustrated by the mayoral campaign between Rocky Anderson, Michael Valentine, and Erin Mendenhall, this was a central issue, and Mayor Mendenhall really has successfully over the last few years made people particularly at the legislature and the governor's office understand that this is not just a Salt Lake City issue.

This is being felt everywhere.

So, I think it is very telling to see the governor put so much money toward this, and I think the big takeaway talking with experts in this topic is there's no silver bullet to this problem.

And when we approach things, whether it's the housing aspect of it or the treatment aspect of it, it's really these strategic infusions of resources at these bottlenecks in the system that create a cascading effect that leads to more people on the street.

Jay Evensen: It's interesting, he wants to set up kind of a parallel justice system to handle homelessness so people get treatment for mental illness and substance abuse and that type of a thing.

It'll be interesting to watch that go through the legislature and look at the details of how that works and whether there's criticism that, oh, you're being soft on crime, because there are homeless people who commit crimes, and if they're put through this separate track, they won't have to face the same punishment as people in the regular justice system.

So, it's gonna be interesting to watch that one as it moves.

Jason Perry: Connected to housing, I find it to be interesting that as an economic development effort, people who are watching the show know housing is not very affordable in the state of Utah right now.

And so, there's a couple of programs I just thought we'd highlight for a moment.

Emily, if you'd talk about these, $50 million for the First Time Home Buyer Assistance Program, $75 million for infrastructure to get water, electricity to these homes, and $25 million toward construction and housing innovation.

This is clearly a priority for the governor is to lower that cost, get people into homes.

Emily Anderson Stern: Right, and he said as part of his budget all of these initiatives are supposed to go toward building 35,000 new homes, starter homes, that people can afford for their first home by 2028.

That's a lot in the next four years, but that is about what we would need for our growing state.

You know, some of the questions that have been brought up as he's talked about these initiatives are, one, will cities get on board?

Two, will developers get on board?

You know, it's usually more lucrative for them to build rental units like apartment buildings or large homes.

They might not be making as much money with this kind of program.

And also, you know, is this going to push more detached, single-family detached housing instead of more dense housing, which is what we may need as we continue to grow?

Sean Higgens: I think-- go ahead.

Jay Evensen: Well, these are the issues that local political careers are won and lost on.

And, you know, there are mayors and city council people who have lost their seats because of decisions they've made about high-density housing or starter homes.

So, that's really-- the governor has to get those people on board with this agenda, but it's much more complicated than that.

And as Emily said, you know, we need developers as well to see that, oh, you can make money on this, maybe not as much as you can elsewhere.

That's where some of these incentives to put in infrastructure and that type of thing on vacant lots, I think, come in.

But again, it'll be a tricky process to get this going.

Sean Higgens: And the other interesting side of this, I think, is the things that are out of any of our control, things like interest rates and the borrowing power of money has, I think I looked at this last night, that the nationwide interest rate is just under 7% right now.

Two years ago it was less than half of that, so it's twice as expensive to borrow money now, and talking with some housing experts this week they really said over the next two years don't expect any monumental changes in the housing market just the way with-- the economy is working right now.

But from a policy perspective, especially with housing, I'm hearing things work in five to ten year increments, so that four year horizon for 35,000 new starter homes, it is an audacious goal, as Governor Cox said himself.

But is something that could be achievable given the will of developers and the political will of people here in Utah.

Jason Perry: Turns out, all you really need to do is win the lottery.

Speaking of which, let's talk about the upcoming legislative session.

Jay, give a comment on this, because Representative Kera Birkeland wants to open up and legalize the lottery in the state of Utah.

Of course, the lottery is not legal here in Utah, all gambling, including lotteries.

She's looking for a constitutional amendment to bring lotteries to the state of Utah.

Jay Evensen: Yeah, you might think, I mean, this is tilting at windmills in a state like Utah.

But to get a constitutional amendment, it, of course, requires a vote of the people.

We saw a couple of years ago when we legalized medical marijuana in Utah how people came out of the woodwork to vote for that issue.

I believe it was the highest voter percentage we'd had in many, many years.

So, if you could get this on the ballot, I'm not sure how it would go.

You may get people coming out of the woodwork voting for it.

The trick is getting it on the ballot.

And I think this is a really heavy lift at the legislature.

There are all kinds of studies out there about how lotteries are a regressive tax, that it's mostly low income people who spend money on them.

Washington Post did a great piece a while back about schools that are supposed to be helped by lotteries but are still starving for money, and why that is, and how they haven't lived up to the promises that they had initially.

So, I think all of these things come into play.

There are a lot of institutions in Utah that are opposed to this.

I think it's a heavy lift, but if it got on the ballot, I'm not sure what would happen.

Jason Perry: That's so interesting.

Emily, of course, Representative Birkeland said she'll take the money to reduce taxes in the state, but another interesting point that she mentioned while she's looking at lotteries are raffles.

Many of us have been to events where raffles are happening, probably not legal, but I want to-- she addressed this as a little bit, because it'll be sort of a connection to her bill, but maybe a quote really quickly, because I know we've all been to these events.

But here's what she said about these raffles.

"Let's be honest, everyone does them.

Every lawmaker has showed up at one where it's happening, an event where it's happening.

Schools do it.

Churches do it.

Everyone's doing charitable raffles.

They're for a good cause and technically by the book?

They're illegal in Utah.

I think it's something that with the lottery we can go ahead and just fix for our state."

Just as difficult as Jay was just talking about, the raffles versus the lottery?

Emily Anderson Stern: Probably not.

I wouldn't be surprised if lawmakers at some of their own fundraisers had raffles.

You know, and a lot of folks are in the Utah legislature, quite religious, their churches have raffles, they go to schools, so I don't think it's as hard of a push as a statewide lottery.

Sean Higgens: Yeah, I think raffles are a little bit easier of a sell than the lottery, particularly given the cultural feelings about gambling in the state of Utah.

But this is an interesting proposal from a quite conservative lawmaker.

I'm curious to see where this one goes.

Jason Perry: Absolutely right.

Emily Anderson Stern: And I do think it's interesting, you know, the legislature this year didn't get quite the revenue that they were hoping for, but they're still trying to cut taxes the next year, so this is a way that, you know, she can get her fellow Republicans on board that they can make up for some of those revenue shortages.

Jay Evensen: On that subject, there is a referendum, a measure on the ballot coming up this November to change the way education is funded.

And included in that is doing away with the sales tax on food, which has been something-- it's been a popular issue that the legislature has avoided for years.

And if that passes, that would be a tax cut of about $200 million, $250 million.

Also, we've seen the Federal Reserve in the last couple of days signal that it wants to lower interest rates two or three times in the coming year.

That could spur the economy a little bit in Utah.

You may, when you get to the February budget figures, revenue figures, you may find that there is more of a surplus than what we were counting on, which may lead to more talk about tax cuts somewhere.

Jason Perry: Absolutely right.

Let's talk about some national issues, but start with some campaigns, first of all.

Sean, it's interesting, people are talking about whether or not John Curtis, the third congressional district, decides to jump in that Senate race.

Talk about the speculation there, because we're already getting people talking about who might fill that spot if he does go.

Sean Higgens: Exactly, I think it's interesting that when Mitt Romney announced that he would not be running, Curtis was an early name floated of a potential candidate.

He kind of gave an interesting non-answer in a public statement on X, formerly Twitter, regarding that.

And people kind of forgot about it for a little while.

And then we heard these rumblings that maybe he is considering a run.

I think that's gonna be a really-- if he does jump in the race, as some people expect, I think it's going to create a really interesting dynamic because you have Brad Wilson, another well-known name.

Certainly, in some of the campaign materials I have seen positioning himself as a conservative fighter, but also cut from the same cloth as someone like Mitt Romney.

And I think when you look at the entire Utah delegation, John Curtis and Mitt Romney were the most aligned on a lot of things.

So, it would create a really interesting dynamic between Brad Wilson and John Curtis if he were to enter the race, to be not quite fighting for the same voters necessarily, but creating interesting dynamic with donors, essentially-- especially, that's an oft forgotten topic among people with how much money does have influence on politics and the people you can get behind you.

But yeah, it's been an interesting turn of events to hear that Curtis is now seriously considering a Senate run.

Jason Perry: Yeah, we may hear that soon also, but that-- Sean brought up just an interesting point right there is it starts to become a battle for those donors and those supporters that, you know, given the timeline of this thing, have been divided already.

Emily Anderson Stern: Right, and, you know, we'll see if some of the people who've backed John Curtis in the past leave the candidates that they have already started donating to.

What I think is really interesting is that, like Sean mentioned, Curtis is maybe closer to a Romney Republican than any of the other--any of the candidates that are currently in the race, and so it'll be interesting to see, you know, if he does enter the race, what kind of support he gets because of that.

Because a lot of candidates so far who have entered the race have spent a lot of time criticizing positions that Romney has, maybe not necessarily saying it out loud that it's a position that Romney has, but-- or, you know, in the case of Trent Staggs, criticizing Romney himself.

So again, it brings an interesting dynamic back into the race.

Jason Perry: And it starts some dominoes falling, Jay, too.

So, we've already had one person launch sort of a exploratory committee here.

This is Senator Mike Kennedy from Utah County talking about whether or not he might be interested in the race if John Curtis leaves and wins for Senate.

Jay Evensen: Right, there are a lot of sort of budding politicians in that district that see this as an opportunity, and some, I'm sure, who've tried in the past and haven't won.

So, it does set up some real intrigue there, and it's gonna be interesting to watch.

Jason Perry: Any other-- okay, Sean.

Sean Higgens: I was just gonna say John Curtis has been, like Emily was saying, cut from the same cloth as Mitt Romney in a lot of ways, and when you look at the challengers that he has had since he got into office, all of his challenges have been much more conservative than John Curtis.

So, likely who would replace him would be quite a different politician than what the third district has right now.

Jason Perry: A lot of people are looking at that chessboard now and trying to make a decision.

And from signature gathering to supporters, they'll be trying to shore them up.

Thank you so much for your great comments this evening.

We have a lot to talk about going forward as well.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

♪♪♪ ...