>> WELCOME BACK.

OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS PASTOR RALPH REBANDT, TRYING TO WRESTLE AWAY THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

THE ONLY PROBLEM IS TUDOR DIXON DOESN'T WANT HIM.

OUR LEAD STORY, THE REPUBLICAN STATE CONVENTION THIS WEEKEND, UNITY ON THE AGENDA.

WILL THEY HAVE IT?

CHUCK STOKES, EMILY LAWLER AND CHAD LIVENGOOD ARE AROUND THE LIVE TABLE, SIT WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT, "OFF THE RECORD" ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY -- AND NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND WELCOME TO BUSY EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD."

HARD NEWS WEEK, LOTS OF STUFF GOING ON.

EMILY, GOVERNOR GRETCHEN WHITMER 11 POINTS AHEAD OF YOU KNOW WHO.

>> 50 TO 39 WAS THE BREAK DOWN, 4% MARGIN BARRIER, LIKELY VOTERS IN THE FALL.

CERTAINLY, WE HAVE A LOT OF POLLING THAT HAS SHOWN WHITMER ON TOP, THIS IS A BIG GAP, 11 POINTS IS A BIG SPREAD.

>> GAME OVER?

>> GAME IS NOT OVER, BUT NOT LOOKING GOOD FOR TUDOR DIXON RIGHT NOW.

SHE HAS GONE THREE WEEKS OF SILENCE, OF ESSENTIALLY NOT DOING ANY MEDIA, HARDLY, WITH THE SMALL EXCEPTION OF A SMALL ROLL-OUT, VERY SMALL ROLL-OUT OF HER RUNNING MATE CHOICE.

>> A PRESS RELEASE IN A VIDEO.

>> A PRESS RELEASE IN A VIDEO.

LOOKED LIKE THEY MET FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> AT A HIGH SCHOOL DANCE.

>> WELL, COME ON.

BUT HE HAD LITERALLY BEEN ON HIS JOB AS AN ARCHITECT THAT MORNING, AND GOT CALLED TO -- WOULD YOU WANT TO BE MY RUNNING MATE.

>> THIS IS SHANE HERNANDEZ, STATE LAWMAKER.

>> FORMER APPROPRIATIONS CHAIRMAN, AND DROPPED WHAT HE'S DOING AND WENT OVER AND ACCEPTED THE JOB.

SO THIS IS ALL WE'VE SEEN FROM HER.

MEANWHILE, THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR ASSOCIATION'S GROUP HAS POUNDED TUDOR DIXON WITH $4 MILLION OF TV ADS OVER THE LAST THREE WEEKS, HIGHLIGHTING HER POSITION ON ABORTION, LABELING HER AS ABORTION EXTREMIST WHO WON'T ALLOW ABORTION IN ANY CASE.

THIS IS CONTRARY TO REPUBLICAN POLLING THAT SHOWS THERE IS SUPPORT FOR AT LEAST AN EXCEPTION FOR RAPE AND INCEST AND SUCH, BUT SO YOU'VE GOT JUST A DEFINING ISSUE IN THIS ELECTION, AND TUDOR DIXON HAS BEEN DEFINED NOW ON THIS, AND THERE'S BEEN NO RESPONSE UNTIL JUST THIS WEEK WHEN A SUPER PAC GOES UP ON TV SUPPORTING HER.

THERE'S BEEN NO RESPONSE HARDLY AT ALL FROM REPUBLICANS HITTING GOVERNOR WHITMER ON ANYTHING.

>> CHUCK, WHAT DO YOU MAKE WITH THE NUMBERS?

.

>> I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING EMILY AND CHAD SAID.

THE WHITMER CAMPAIGN MANAGED TO DO IT ON THE ONE ISSUE THAT MAY WELL DECIDE THIS RACE.

THAT'S THE ABORTION ISSUE.

IT PLAYS TO WOMEN AND WHAT THEY WANT OR DON'T WANT IN A STATE WHICH LAST TIME AROUND, WHITMER DID PRETTY GOOD.

WHITMER WILL HAVE TO DETERMINE, BUT SHE'S CLEARLY FOR THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS DEFINED FOR THE PUBLIC, WHAT SHE WANTS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE ABOUT TUDOR DIXON AND TUDOR DIXON HAS NOT RETORTED THAT UNTIL JUST NOW.

YOU CAN'T -- IN POLITICS, YOU CAN'T GO THAT LONG AND NOT DEFEND YOURSELF.

THE RACE ISN'T OVER, THERE'S A DECENT AMOUNT OF TIME BETWEEN NOW AND DECEMBER.

SHE'S BEHIND THE 8 BALL AND HAS TO RUN TWICE AS FAST TO BE ABLE TO TRY TO DEFINE GOVERNOR WHITMER FOR THE PEOPLE SHE WANTS TO VOTE FOR HER.

>> IN TALKING TO BERNIE, THE POLLSTER PUT THIS ALL TOGETHER.

ABORTION IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, 19% CITING THAT.

THE GOVERNOR HAS A 74-22-POINT LEAD.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE BALLOT PROPOSAL, OKAY, IT'S 69-22.

THOSE ARE HUGE NUMBERS AND HARD TO OVERCOME.

>> THOSE ARE BIG NUMBERS, BERNIE HAS A LIST OF PRIORITIES OR WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS -- >> TOP ISSUES IN MICHIGAN?

>> ABORTION TOPPED THOSE.

I WILL NOTE ON THE TOP ISSUES, THERE WASN'T AN ECONOMIC ONE, THERE WASN'T ONE LIKE GAS PRICES.

>> INFLATION, THAT IS THE HALLMARK OF HER CAMPAIGN.

>> AND THERE WAS A SEPARATE QUESTION THAT SHOWED 60% OF MICHIGANDERS SHOW THE ECONOMY IS GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION I BELIEVE IS HOW IT WAS PHRASED.

THIS IS POTENTIAL FOR TUDOR DIXON TO MAKE THE RACE ABOUT THAT AS OPPOSED TO ABORTION WHICH WHITMER IS CLEANING UP ON RIGHT NOW.

>> THE TEST WILL BE COMING OUT OF THE NOMINATING CONVENTION FOR THE REPUBLIANS, CAN SHE COME IN THERE, HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND, UNITE THE PARTY AND COME OUT WITH A TON OF ENERGY AND A REAL ORGANIZED STRATEGY AND LOOKING AS THOUGH EVERYONE IS ON BOARD.

IF SHE CAN'T DO THAT, THIS IS A TOUGH RACE.

>> THE OTHER FACTOR IS BALLOTS HIT THE MAIL IN FOUR WEEKS.

SO I SAW TUDOR DIXON STRATEGIST, NOLAN FINLEY, THAT ELECTIONS AREN'T WON IN AUGUST.

THEY CAN BE LOST IN AUGUST.

AND IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SOME TYPE OF MESSAGE THAT IS TELLING PEOPLE WHO YOU ARE RELATIVELY AN UNKNOWN PERSON GOING UP AGAINST A REALLY WELL-KNOWN INCUMBENT, WHO, A LOT OF PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ABOUT GRETCHEN WHITMER ARE PRETTY MUCH SETTLED AT THIS POINT, AND PRE- OR POST-PANDEMIC, PARTICULARLY POST-PANDEMIC.

AT THIS POINT, YOU'RE TREADING WATER, AND NOW THEY GOT TO FIND A WAY TO TAP INTO THIS.

THERE IS STILL THE ECONOMY.

THERE'S STILL DEFINITELY INFLATION, STILL A HUGE ISSUE, AND THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT CLEARLY THE WHITMER TEAM KNOWS IS AN ALBATROSS AND THEY GOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET AROUND IT AT TIMES.

>> THE GOOD NEWS FOR THE GOVERNOR, WHEN THEY ASKED PEOPLE ABOUT COVID BEING ON THE RADAR, 2% ARE CONCERNED ABOUT COVID.

THAT'S NOT A HUGE AMOUNT BUT MS. DIXON'S NAME ID HAS PICKED UP.

SHE'S AT 25%.

PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHO SHE IS, MUCH BETTER THAN SHE WAS BEFORE.

THAT'S AN IMPROVING SIGN.

WHAT DO THEY DO NEXT?

>> NO MATTER HOW HIGH THE NUMBERS GO BETWEEN NOW AND THE FALL, YOU WILL NEVER SEE THE GOVERNOR INSTITUTE ANY KIND OF MASK MANDATE BEFORE ELECTION TIME.

THAT'S AN ISSUE THAT HAS GONE OUT THE WINDOW.

PUT YOUR MASK ON IF THE NUMBERS GO UP, BUT WON'T BE THE GOVERNOR TELLING YOU TO DO IT.

>> WE'RE HAVING THE DEBATE OVER DEBATES, LOOKS LIKE, CHUCK, WE CAN'T AGREE ON THE DEBATES.

DOES SHE HAVE AN OPTION?

SHE HAS TWO, TAKE THIS CASE OR DO IT.

>> THEY'RE JOCKEYING FOR POSITION.

SHE HAS ALLUDED TO SHE VERY MUCH WANTS SOMETHING BEFORE ALL THE ABSENTEE BALLOTS GO OUT, BECAUSE THAT WASN'T AN ISSUE FOUR YEARS AGO WITH THE RECENT ABSENTEE BALLOT.

SHE'D LIKE TO PLAY TO THAT.

ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE, YOU HAVE THE GOVERNOR, THE INCUMBENT, HOLDING THE HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE RIGHT NOW.

YOU WANT THE BELT, YOU GOT TO SNATCH IT FROM HER, AND MOST LIKELY ON HER TIMELINE BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO DEBATE YOU, AND SHE'S SAYING, I'M GOING TO DO TWO DEBATES.

MAY COME DOWN TO TWO DEBATES AND IF THEY END UP NOT AGREEING TO BE AT THE SAME PLACE AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME LOCATION, IT CAN COME DOWN TO ONE DEBATE.

THE GOVERNOR HOLDS A LOT OF ACES IN HER HANDS RIGHT NOW.

>> SHE HOLDS ALL THE CARDS.

>> WHETHER OR NOT TUDOR DIXON CAN MOVE THE GOVERNOR OFF OF WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS SAYING IS A TOUGH THING TO DO WHEN YOU'RE AN INCUMBENT.

SHE'S GOING TO TRY, BUT WHETHER OR NOT SHE'S SUCCESSFUL, WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

>> I THINK THE GOVERNOR HAS ALL THE CARDS.

MS. DIXON, THE GOVERNOR WOULDN'T DEBATE ME AND THE PEOPLE AT HOME GO, OH, REALLY?

>> THE POLLING DOESN'T HELP.

WHEN YOU HAVE POLLS THAT ARE REALLY TIGHT, THAT PUTS PRESSURE ON BOTH SIDES, WITH A GAP LIKE THIS, IT GIVES MORE ADVANTAGE TO THE INCUMBENT.

>> LET'S FLESH THIS OUT.

LOOK.

IF A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE VOTING EARLY, BY THE TIME THEY GET TO YOUR DEBATE ON OCTOBER 25, A VAST MAJORITY WILL HAVE DECIDED.

DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNOR'S PEOPLE HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE TWO MAYBE UP TO THREE MILLION VOTES CAST ON THE ABSENTEE.

IT'S NOT OUT OF THE REALM POSSIBILITIES.

I WOULD FRANKLY BE SURPRISED IF THERE ARE ANY DEBATES, AND WE ALL KNOW THAT DEBATES IN THE GUBERNATORIAL, THE STATEWIDE LEVEL IN GENERAL HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVELY BROKEN IN THE STATE FOR A LONG TIME.

MANY CYCLES, CHUCK AND I MODERATED SOMETHING THAT COUNTED AS A DEBATE IN 2018 BETWEEN DEBBIE STABENOW AND JOHN JAMES, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME DEBBIE STABENOW ACKNOWLEDGED JOHN JAMES AS A PRESENCE ACTUALLY.

IT WAS THE FIRST AND LAST TIME, ACTUALLY.

IT WAS SO HARD TO GET PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AND STILL IS SO HARD TO GET PEOPLE IN THE ROOM UNLESS THERE IS A TIGHT RACE.

RIGHT NOW, IT'S NOT A TIGHT RACE.

>> IF YOU ARE TUDOR DIXON, YOU WANT TO FACE GRETCHEN WHITMER.

PART OF HER PITCH WAS LOOK HOW EFFECTIVELY I CAN HIT BACK AGAINST WHITMER AS A WOMAN.

I'M NOT BULLYING PEOPLE WAS PART OF HER PITCH IN THE END.

I THINK THEY COULD BE A PRETTY EFFECTIVE BACK AND FORTH.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE SPAR.

I THINK IT HAPPENS.

>> I THINK SOME OF US ARE SURPRISED THAT SOME OF THE MOMENTUM IS LOST THAT SHE CAME OUT OF THE PRIMARY.

SHE WENT UP AGAINST ALL THE GUYS IN SUITS AND TOOK THEM ON IN THE PRIMARY DEBATE THAT WE DID.

SHE DID FINE.

SHE TOOK THE GUYS ON AND WON THAT RACE, AND YOU'D LIKE TO THINK COMING OUT OF THAT, OKAY, NOW, I'M READY FOR YOU, GOVERNOR WHITMER.

SHE'S GOT TO PROVE SHE'S READY FOR HER.

>> SOME PEOPLE SAID THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION, SHE SHOULD HAVE PROPOSED FIVE DEBATES.

RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX.

YOU'RE NOT BUYING THAT?

>> WE CAN GET INTO WHAT SHE SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE, THE STRATEGY AND WHAT NOT.

GOVERNOR WHITMER HAS TO TELL US WHAT IS HER AGENDA FOR A SECOND TERM.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD ONE WORD OF THAT YET.

WE HEARD ABOUT $400 REFUNDS FOR CHECKS, HEARD ABOUT RECORD SPENDING FOR SCHOOLS, BUT HAVE NOT HEARD WHAT DOES GOVERNOR WHITMER PLAN TO DO WITH OR WITHOUT A MAJORITY IN LEGISLATURE IN THE SECOND TERM.

WE'VE GOTTEN CRICKETS SO FAR.

>> A NO FAULT DECISION, MAJOR DECISION WHICH SAYS THE RETROACTIVITY, WHICH REMOVES PEOPLE FROM SERVICES WAS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL.

>> RIGHT.

THEY SAID IT CAN'T BE APPLIED RETROACTIVELY, WHEN THOSE PEOPLE PURCHASED INSURANCE, THEY WERE PURCHASING LIFETIME BENEFITS AND THEY'VE BEEN RETROACTIVELY CUT.

IT'S A BIG DEAL FOR ACCIDENT SURVIVORS.

>> HOWEVER, IT'S GOING UP.

>> THIS WOULD BE A SHOCK IF IT WEREN'T APPEALED, ACTUALLY.

>> THEY HAD AN AMICUS BRIEF FROM 80 FORMER AND CURRENT LAWMAKERS WHO WERE TOLD THIS WASN'T RETROACTIVE.

DID YOU MAKE ANYTHING OF THAT?

>> IT'S BEEN OUT THERE FOR A WHILE.

THE DEPARTMENT OF INSURANCE AND FINANCIAL SERVICES FILED AMICUS BRIEF A FEW WEEKS AGO TRYING TO INTERVENE ON BEHALF OF THE AUTO INSURANCE COMPANIES.

STOP BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A SECOND.

THE STATE AGENCY UNDER GOVERNOR GRETCHEN WHITMER THAT IS SUPPOSED TO REGULATE THE AUTO INSURANCE INDUSTRY STEPPED IN AND TRIED TO PUT A SHIELD UP FOR THE AUTO INDUSTRY.

>> THE AUTO INSURANCE INDUSTRY?

>> YES, AND JUDGE SHAPIRO WRITING MAJORITY OPINION IN A FOOTNOTE, WHICH WAS EXTRAORDINARY, IN A FOOTNOTE IN THE OPINION, NOTED A CLIP FROM A YouTube VIDEO, A TOWN HALL MEETING THAT THE DIRECTOR ANITA FOX GAVE WHICH SHE CLEARLY SAID YOUR BENEFITS ARE VESTED UNDER THE OLD LAW AND THE NEW LAW, WHEN YOU BUY THE POLICY.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN YOU BUY THAT POLICY, YOU ARE GUARANTEED UNDER A CONTRACTUAL RIGHT THAT YOU GET THESE SERVICES.

THAT IS THE HEART OF THIS ISSUE IS WHEN THEY CUT THE EXPENSES, THE REIMBURSEMENT RATES TO THE HOME HEALTH CARE COMPANY BY 45%, THEY TOOK AWAY THE ABILITY OF THE HOME HEALTH CARE COMPANY TO FUNCTION.

IF YOU CUT SOMEONE'S PAY FROM $20 AN HOUR DOWN TO $8 AN HOUR, THEY CAN'T OPERATE AT $8 AN HOUR.

SIMPLE ECONOMICS.

THAT IS THE REAL WORLD EFFECT OF WHAT THIS LAW DID AND WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED OVER THE LAST YEAR WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE LOSING SERVICES, A LOT OF LIVES DISRUPTED BY THIS.

>> IT'S A TOUGH POSITION THAT IT PUTS EVERYONE IN.

ON THE ONE HAND, IT LOOKS BAD THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR LIVES DISRUPTED BY THIS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THIS IS THE KEY BIPARTISAN ACCOMPLISHMENT OF WHITMER AND I GUESS THE LAST LEGISLATURE, WHO HAVE HUNG THIS OUT AND SAID, WE ACCOMPLISHED THIS, WE LOWERED AUTO INSURANCE RATES.

WITH THE RETROACTIVITY, IT'S SAVING A LOT OF MONEY, THE FACT IS WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE THE SAVINGS WE'VE SEEN UNDER THE LAW ANYMORE.

>> SEE HOW THIS PLAYS OUT AT THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

LET'S CALL IN OUR GUEST TODAY.

PASTOR, ARE YOU WITH US?

>> I AM HERE.

YES, I AM.

>> THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

YOU HAVE A BIG CONVENTION.

QUESTION, SIR, DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD BE A VOICE VOTE WHO THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR CANDIDATE SHOULD BE.

VOICE VOTE OR NOT?

>> WELL, THE RULES ARE -- YES, I'LL SAY A VOICE VOTE IS FINE.

IF SOMEONE YELLS DIVISION, IT HAS TO GO TO A PAPER VOTE.

NOTHING WRONG WITH A VOICE VOTE AS LONG AS THE MODERATOR DOESN'T SAY YEAs WIN, HERE IS THE GAVEL AND IT'S OVER.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE TIME TO PROCESS AND SOMEONE TO SAY DIVISION.

>> IF THE CHAIR PERSON OF THE CONVENTION DOES WHAT YOU SAID HE OR SHE SHOULD NOT DO, WILL YOU ASK SUPPORTERS TO WALK OUT OF THE CONVENTION?

>> I WOULD NOT ASK THEM TO DO ANYTHING, THEY'RE IN CHARGE, THEY PICK THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR CANDIDATE.

THEY'RE THE ONES THAT VOTE ON EVERYTHING.

I WOULD NOT ASK THEM TO DO THAT.

>> IF THEY WALKED OUT, WOULD YOU BE HAPPY?

>> I WOULDN'T -- I DON'T KNOW WHY I WOULD BE HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

I LOOK AT A SITUATION THAT IF IT'S THAT CORRUPT, THE NEWS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE THERE AND THEY WILL MAKE IT KNOWN.

SO I THINK THE ESTABLISHMENT HAS TO BE ON THEIR BEST BEHAVIOR.

>> SO A VOICE VOTE THAT IS NOT FAIR IS CORRUPT?

DID YOU JUST SAY THAT?

>> NO, I SAID IF A VOICE VOTE IS MISHEARD.

IN OTHER WORDS, A MODERATOR COULD SUBJECTIVELY SAY I HEARD MORE NAYS THAN YEAs OR MORE YEAs THAN I DID NAYS, AND THAT'S UP TO THAT PERSON.

HE'S ONLY THERE TO GUIDE, HE'S NOT THERE TO DECIDE.

IF HE DOESN'T MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION, ALL THAT SOMEONE HAS TO DO IS SAY DIVISION, AND THEN IT GOES TO A PAPER VOTE.

>> EMILY?

>> CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH TUDOR DIXON, IF YOU DID ACTUALLY WORK TOGETHER?

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> IT WOULD BE VERY GOOD.

ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, WE HAD VERY GOOD CONVERSATIONS, I WAS VERY CORDIAL WITH HER THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE TIME.

WHILE EVERYBODY IS PICKING ON HER, MY DECISION TO MAKE MICHIGAN THE LIGHTHOUSE TO THE NATION AND THE ABILITY TO PROMOTE WHAT I BELIEVE SHOULD TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER TEARING OTHER CANDIDATES DOWN.

I NEVER ONCE TORE HER DOWN, I THINK WE COULD WORK TOGETHER REALLY WELL.

>> YOU SAID YOU WOULDN'T MEET ONE-ON-ONE WITH A WOMAN ALONE.

I ASSUME YOU'VE NEVER HAD A ONE-ON-ONE MEETING WITH HER.

WOULD YOU CONTINUE THAT IF YOU ARE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR UNDER HER?

>> YES, I WOULD, THE POLICY WOULD STAY.

I WOULD BRING IN A STAFFER FOR NOTES.

THAT'S HOW WE WOULD MAKE IT WORK.

NOT A BIG DEAL.

>> REVEREND, WHAT DO YOU MAKE SINCE COMING OUT OF THE PRIMARY WITH THE CAMPAIGN OF TUDOR DIXON AS OF RIGHT NOW?

ARE YOU IMPRESSED WITH WHAT YOU SEE?

>> WELL, I THINK EVERYBODY IS KIND OF WAITING TO GET PAST THIS CONVENTION, SO WHAT I SEE IS THEM AND THE PARTY GETTING THEIR BATTLE PLAN TOGETHER, BECAUSE SATURDAY COULD MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.

IF THE CANDIDATES, OR THE DELEGATES ELECT ME AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, WE HAVE TO PIVOT AND GO TO A PLAN THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO EVERYBODY.

SO THAT'S WHERE I THINK THEY ARE.

SO I CAN'T ANSWER THAT, CHUCK, BECAUSE I'M NEW TO POLITICS, AND I'M NOT SURE TYPICALLY WHAT THINGS LOOK LIKE.

SO I'M PLEASED WITH IT, I THINK WE'VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO IN THE NEXT, WHAT, 75, 77 DAYS, WHATEVER IT IS.

I THINK WE CAN DO IT.

>> IF YOU TURN OUT NOT TO BE THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR CANDIDATE, WILL YOU BE ABLE TO CLEARLY WORK WITH THE PARTY AND WHOEVER IS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR?

>> OH, NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT IN EVERY INTERVIEW THIS WEEK, IN EVERY PODCAST.

EVERY OPPORTUNITY I HAVE.

I'M BEHIND THIS TICKET 100% REGARDLESS.

THE QUESTION I HAVE IS IF I WAS TO WIN ON SATURDAY, WOULD THEY BE BEHIND ME?

THAT'S THE BIGGER QUESTION.

>> RALPH, WHY ARE YOU RUNNING FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR?

TUDOR DIXON WON 40% OF THE VOTE, A PLURALITY WIN IN A FIVE-WAY RACE, SHOULDN'T THE NOMINEE BE AFFORDED HER CHOICE FOR RUNNING MATE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE RULES, THE RULES SAY THE GOVERNOR CANDIDATE PUTS FORTH NOMINEE FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, AND IT'S ACTUALLY DECIDED BY THE DELEGATES.

WHEN I GOT INTO THIS RACE, I KNEW THAT, I KNEW I COULD PUT FORTH A LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR PICK, AND THEY MIGHT NOT BE PICKED.

AND ONE OF THE BEAUTIES OF THAT SYSTEM IS IT KEEPS AN OLIGARCHY FROM RUNNING THE SYSTEM.

IT ALSO KEEPS HONESTY IN THE SYSTEM AND TEACHES US ALL TO WORK TOGETHER REGARDLESS HOW WE GOT THERE.

IN THE EARLY DAYS OF OUR COUNTRY, YOU WOULD VOTE ON A PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT, YOU COULD END UP WITH SOMETHING FROM THE WIG PARTY, SOMEBODY FROM THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THAT WAS HEALTHY BECAUSE IT CAUSED PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER.

>> SINCE THE PRIMARY ON AUGUST 2, HAVE YOU HAD COMMUNICATION OR ADVICE FROM THE POLITICAL CONSULTANT JOHN YOB OR ASSOCIATES HOW TO RUN THIS CAMPAIGN?

>> I HAVE NOT.

WE'RE STRICTLY GRASSROOTS.

WE HAVE NOT TALKED TO ANYBODY, JOHN OR ANYBODY IN THE ESTABLISHMENT.

I HAVE TALKED WITH TUDOR ABOUT IT.

I'VE TALKED WITH SHANE.

HAD A REALLY GOOD CONVERSATION WITH HIM ON MONDAY.

HE CALLED ME, WE TALKED FOR A WHILE, AND HE SAID, RALPH, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WERE DOING.

IN 2014, HE OFFERED A DIFFERENT OPTION THAN BRIAN CALI, HE COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD.

WE HAD A CORDIAL CONVERSATION, THAT'S WHERE WE LEFT IT.

WE KNOW IT'S UP TO THE DELEGATES TO DECIDE.

THAT'S PART OF THE RULES WE'RE LIVING BY AS GRASSROOTS, AND YOU KNOW, THIS WHOLE IDEA OF UNITY IN THE PARTY, THERE ARE A COUPLE WAYS TO LOOK AT THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, THE RULES HAVE BEEN CHANGED, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU FOLKS ARE AWARE OF THIS.

AS OF THE LAST WEEK, THE RULES FOR CONVENTION HAVE CHANGED.

WHEN YOU CHANGE RULES BEFORE THE GAME, IT GETS PEOPLE EXCITED -- SHOULDN'T SAY EXCITED.

FRUSTRATED.

THAT'S BEEN AN ISSUE.

IN TERMS OF BRINGING UNITY TO THE PARTY, GUYS, I KNOW TUDOR HAD 40% OF THE VOTE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, SHE DID NOT HAVE 60% OF THE VOTE.

THE REASON I'M IN THIS TIM, OR CHAD, THE GRASSROOTS ASKED ME TO STEP INTO THIS ROLE.

I WOULD HAVE NEVER PURSUED THIS.

THE GRASSROOTS NEED A VOICE, THEY'VE COME A LONG WAY AND HAVING ME ON THE TICKET COULD BE A STRONG TICKET, ESPECIALLY THE FACT THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE SAID AFTER THE ELECTION, WE'RE GOING TO GO TO A DIFFERENT PARTY, AND YOU SAW WHAT JAMES CRAIG SAID.

HE'S ABANDONED THE PARTY.

HE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT WOULD SAY THAT.

THERE ARE OTHERS THAT FEEL DISENFRANCHISED.

WHEN I TALKED TO PEOPLE AT THE OAKLAND COUNTY CONVENTION ABOUT RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

THEY SAID, RALPH, IF YOU RUN, THAT'S A GAME-CHANGER, WE'LL VOTE FOR YOU.

>> PASTOR, YOU SAID EARLIER THIS WEEK THE GRASSROOTS AND THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAVE BASICALLY BEEN MUTED.

EXPLAIN HOW HAVE THEY BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE PROCESS?

>> MANY OF THEM FELT LEFT OUT OF THE PROCESS WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP ENDORSED SHANE AND ENDORSED TUDOR.

THERE'S A MAGA MOVEMENT AMONG THE GRASSROOTS THAT I'M NOT SURE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS AWARE OF.

THERE'S NEWS TO THE CONTRARY THAT HE HASN'T BEEN AWARE OF IT.

MY POINT IS SIMPLY THAT HE IS DOING WHAT HE DID, AND A LOT OF GRASSROOTS FELT THERE ARE OTHER CANDIDATES HE SHOULD HAVE SUPPORTED.

THAT'S HOW HE FEELS SNUB.

>> ARE YOU SAYING THERE ARE PEOPLE MORE MAGA THAN TRUMP WITHIN MICHIGAN HERE?

>> I'M SAYING NOT ALL THE INFORMATION HAS GOTTEN TO PRESIDENT TRUMP ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE GRASSROOTS.

>> REVEREND, THE ABORTION ISSUE IS GETTING A LOT MORE ATTENTION THAN THE INFRASTRUCTURE ISSUE.

IS THE ABORTION ISSUE A PROBLEMATIC ISSUE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> I DON'T THINK AT ALL BECAUSE THIS SO-CALLED REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM FOR ALL PETITION AND PROPOSAL THAT COULD POTENTIALLY GET ON THE BALLOT, THAT IS SO FAR LEFT OF CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK AND EVEN VIRGINIA THAT, IF THAT HAPPENS, MICHIGAN IS GOING TO BE THE EXTREME LIBERAL STATE, BECAUSE IT SAYS YOU CAN HAVE AN ABORTION UP UNTIL THE MOMENT OF DELIVERY.

IT SAYS THAT PARENTS DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO EVEN KNOW ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEIR KIDS ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ABORTION.

IT ALSO SAYS THAT YOUR LOCAL DENTIST COULD PERFORM AN ABORTION.

IT TALKS ABOUT HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS, YOU COULD GO TO A CHIROPRACTOR AND GET AN ABORTION.

I'M CONVINCED THAT 80% OF MICHIGAN WHEN THEY FIND OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS BILL, THEY'RE GOING TO RUN FROM IT.

THAT'S NOT A REPUBLICAN ISSUE, THAT'S AN ISSUE DEMOCRATS AND ANY PARENT WHO LOVES THEIR CHILD KNOWING THEY HAVE TO GET A SIGNED WAIVER FOR THEIR CHILD TO GET AN EAR PIERCING AND THEY CAN GO GET AN ABORTION WITHOUT PARENTS KNOWING IT?

OR HAVE A SEX CHANGE WITHOUT PARENTS KNOWING IT?

OR IF PARENTS COMPLAIN THEY CAN GET FINED?

THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

>> CHAD, PASTOR, THE AMENDMENT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT PARENTAL CONSENT.

IT DOESN'T SPECIFICALLY SAY THERE ARE LAWS INVALIDATED.

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THAT?

>> WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU READ.

IT'S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S WRITTEN, CHAD.

YOU CAN READ A STATEMENT AND THERE'S LOOPHOLES IN THE BILL.

THOSE LOOPHOLES WOULD ALLOW FOR A STUDENT TO HAVE A SEX CHANGE OR ABORTION WITHOUT THEIR PARENT'S CONSENT.

THAT'S WHAT I'M REFERRING TO IN THAT BILL.

IT'S REALLY CLEAR.

AFTER THIS DISCUSSION, I CAN CERTAINLY POINT THOSE THINGS OUT, IF NECESSARY.

I DON'T HAVE THEM RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME.

>> PASTOR, HAS ANYBODY ASKED TO YOU DROP OUT OF THIS RACE?

>> THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PEOPLE, THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS.

>> MAY I ASK, WHO ASKED YOU?

WHO CALLED AND SAID PLEASE GET OUT?

>> I'D RATHER NOT SAY THAT.

>> I WISH YOU WOULD TELL ME.

>> PARDON ME?

>> I WISH YOU WOULD TELL ME.

THAT'S IMPORTANT.

>> I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT BECAUSE IT'S JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT I DON'T WANT TO EXPOSE A CONVERSATION THAT COULD BE POTENTIALLY HURTFUL TO ANYONE, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE, IF THEY LOOK AT IT, I'M TRYING TO UNIFY THE PARTY.

YOU GUYS HAVE IDENTIFIED THAT THE PARTY IS FRACTURED AND WE KNOW THAT.

I'M TRYING TO BRING THE 60% IN WITH HER 40.

WHEN WE GO INTO NOVEMBER 8, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A UNIFIED PARTY, UNIFIED REPUBLICAN PARTY, SO PEOPLE WILL BE VOTING NOT ONLY WITH THE 100% OF REPUBLICANS BUT IT WON'T BE AS HARD TO GET THE INDEPENDENTS AND DEMOCRATS, WHICH I BELIEVE I CAN GET THOSE BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS BUILT IN WAYNE COUNTY AND DETROIT, AND CONVINCED WE CAN FLIP WAYNE COUNTY FOR TUDOR.

>> RALPH, DO YOU THINK SHAUN MATOC HAS BEEN AN EVEN HANDED PLAYER IN THE VARIOUS MACHINATIONS BEHIND THE TRUMP ENDORSEMENT AND ALSO THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR'S RACE?

>> YOU KNOW, CHAD, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I CAN'T ANSWER THAT BECAUSE I DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW SHE'S WORKED BEHIND THE SCENES.

I WISH I COULD.

I REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER THAT.

I WISH I COULD.

>> WELL, HAS SHE BEEN FAIR?

YOU'VE WATCHED HER CONDUCT.

>> HONESTLY, IN THE LAST WEEK AND A HALF -- WELL, I CAN'T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I TALKED TO HER, I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HER SINCE I ANNOUNCED FOR LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.

IN TERMS OF FAIR, I KNOW THE ESTABLISHMENT HAS A PLAY, THEY HAVE A GAME PLAN TO TRY TO KEEP THE GRASSROOTS FROM HAVING A SAY.

THAT'S WHY THE RULES WERE CHANGED, WE HAVE THE CURRENT MODERATOR GOING TO BE UP THERE.

WE HAVE A LOT STACKED AGAINST US IN THE GRASSROOTS.

IT'S MORE TUDOR'S HANDLERS THAN IT IS TUDOR OR ANYONE ELSE.

FOR ME THIS WHOLE ISSUE IS WORKING TOGETHER AND BRINGING UNITY.

SHE'S IN A TOUGH POSITION, TRYING TO MODERATE THE ESTABLISHMENT WITH GRASSROOTS, AND AGAIN, GENTLEMEN AND LADIES, I DON'T KNOW.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT SHE'S BEEN DOING.

>> PASTOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR DOING OUR PROGRAM.

WE'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW AT THE CONVENTION, ALL RIGHT?

>> THANKS, LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

>> THANKS TO OUR PANEL.

SEE YOU RIGHT HERE NEXT WEEK FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY -- FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD," VISIT WKAR.ORG.

MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE RECORD."