>> WELCOME BACK STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION AND REPUBLICAN MEMBER TOM McMILLIN ON THE MASK POLICY IN SCHOOLS.

OUR LEAD STORY THE GOVERNOR AND CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER DIFFER ON THE MANDATORY SCHOOL MASK POLICY.

HERE TO DISCUSS THAT "OTR" PANEL MEMBERS, CHUCK STOKES, CHEYNA ROTH AND CRAIG MAUGHER.

>> NOW THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> Tim: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WELCOME BACK TO "OFF THE RECORD."

THANK YOU FOR TAKING I'M OUT OF YOUR BUSY SCHEDULE TO JOIN US AND OUR GREAT PANEL THAT IS WITH US THIS MORNING.

AS YOU KNOW, WE GOT LITTLE DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR AND HER MEDICAL ADVISOR.

WE'LL LOOK AT THAT STORY.

>> THE GOVERNOR IS RECOMMENDING THIS FALL IN THE SCHOOLS, MASKS BE WORN.

WHEN PRESSED ON WHY SHE'S NOT ISSUING A STATE MANDATE, THE GOVERNOR REPORT THAT SHE AND THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS WAS TO LET THE SCHOOL BOARDS MAKE THE CALL.

THE FIRST QUESTION WAS, HAS ANYBODY IN THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT RECOMMENDED TO THE GOVERNOR TO ISSUE THE MANDATE?

THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE DEPARTMENT OFFER THIS.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WOULD BE A QUESTION THE DOCTOR TO ANSWER.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET BACK TOWN THAT.

>> WHEN ASKED WHY THE DEPARTMENT WAS NOT ISSUING A MANDATE.

IN RESPONSE.

>> I DON'T KNOW WE HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT QUESTION.

>> WHAT THE SPOKESPERSON DID NOT REVEAL SOMEBODY WAS ON THE LINE WHO COULD HAVE ANSWERED THOSE QUESTIONS.

GOVERNOR'S CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER DR. CALLDOON.

WHO WAS ASKED IF SHE MADE THE MANDATORY MASK RECOMMENDATION TO THE GOVERNOR.

>> TO BE MY JOB TO RECOMMEND PUBLIC HEALTH INTERVENTIONS AND IN POLICIES THAT WILL BE PROTECTIVE AND I CONTINUE TO DO THAT THROUGHOUT THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS.

>> WHEN SHE WAS THEN ASKED IF SHE SPECIFICALLY MADE THAT RECOMMENDATION FOR THE FIRST TIME, SHE REVEALS -- >> I HAVE RECOMMENDED THAT IF A MASK MANDATE WERE IN PLACE AND FOLLOWED, IT WOULD LIKELY DECREASE THE SPREAD OF COVID-19 IN SCHOOLS.

>> WHEN PRESSED ON WHY THE GOVERNOR WAS DOING THIS, THE DOCTOR SAID THERE ARE OTHER CONSIDERATIONS AND WHAT WERE THOSE?

>> I CANNOT SPEAK TO THAT.

I WILL DEFER TO THE DIRECTOR.

>> PUBLIC HEALTH DIRECTOR WAS ON THE CALL BUT UNABLE TO HEAR THE ENTIRE BRIEFING.

>> Tim: MR. MAUGHER YOU BEEN ON A ONE-PERSON CRUSADE TO GET THE GOVERNOR TO EXPLAIN.

IS IT SIGNIFICANT OR NOT?

>> IT WAS SIGNIFICANT.

I THOUGHT IT WAS ONE OF THE STRANGEST BRIEFINGS THAT I SEEN DURING ERA OF COVID.

ESSENTIALLY WE HAVE A WAVE OF UNCERTAINTY WASHING ACROSS STATE POLITICS NOW.

WE KNOW TWO THINGS.

WE KNOW THAT SCHOOLS ARE ABOUT TO OPEN.

PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS SAYING MASKS WILL PREVENT THE SPREAD OF THE CORONAVIRUS IN SCHOOLS.

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW IS WHAT STATE OFFICIALS ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.

THEY SEEM TO BE SAYING IT'S THE OTHER GUY TIME TO MAKE THE DECISION.

WE'RE NOT MAKING THIS DECISION.

THE OTHER GUYS, THE SCHOOL BOARDS, LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENTS ARE AT A LOSS WHAT TO DO.

THEY'RE LOOKING TO THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, THE STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT FOR AN ANSWER.

EVERYTHING IS JUST UNCERTAIN NOW.

>> Tim: CHEYNA WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE GOVERNOR RECOMMENDING HER ADVISOR TO DO MASK.

SHE SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT?

>> I THINK THAT THIS INSTANCE IS EMBLEMATIC WHAT WE'VE BEEN SEEING THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC.

THERE'S THE POLITICAL SIDE AND THE PUBLIC HEALTH SIDE.

IT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE THAT IS WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THIS IS A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISES.

POLITICS SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING A ROLE IN IT.

IT SEEMS AS THOUGH DR. CALLDOON IS COMING FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH PERSPECTIVE.

WHATEVER OTHER CONSIDERATIONS AND THINGS THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT ARE, THOSE ARE PROBABLY POLITICAL.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS WE'RE NOT SEEING BEHIND THE SCENES.

FOR TWO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN -- DR. CALLDOON AND GOVERNOR HAVE BEEN IN LOCK STEP THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC.

-- TO SEE THEM START TO SEPARATE, THIS IS WHERE I THINK WE'RE GOING TO START TO SEE IF A LOT OF THAT UNCERTAINTY THAT CRAIG WAS TALKING ABOUT.

>> Tim: THIS IS SORT OF SHADES OF THE ROBERT GORDON SITUATION, THE FORMER EMPLOYEE WHO LANDED WITH A GIG WITH THE BIDEN FOLKS.

THIS ONE NOW, IT'S NOT A BATTLE, IT IS A DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THESE TWO IT'S NOW IN THE PUBLIC FOR EVERYBODILY TO CONSUME.

ARE THERE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS TO THIS ALLEGED DISAGREEMENT?

>> I THINK EVERYBODY IS RIGHT SO FAR.

THIS IS A PERFECT STORM BREWING, UNFORTUNATE STORM.

YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE POLITICS OF THE PANDEMIC RIGHT NOW.

IT IS INTERTWINED.

IT'S UNFORTUNATE BUT IT'S THERE.

YOU CAN ALSO HAVE RESPECTED LEADERS AGREE TO DISAGREE.

AS YOU SAID, IT'S NOT A BATTLE NOW.

BUT IT IS A DISAGREEMENT.

DR. CALLDOON ALWAYS SAID SHE'S GOING TO RECOMMEND HER BEST MEDICAL JUDGMENT AND THAT'S WHO SHE HAS TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO, TO SCIENCE AND TO HER RESPECTED COLLEAGUES WITHIN THE MEDICAL FIELD.

IF SHE LEFT THAT JOB TODAY FOR WHATEVER REASON, SHE'LL BE ABLE TO WORK AND HAVE ANOTHER JOB.

SHE NEVER STOPPED BEING A DOCTOR.

SHE STILL SEES PATIENTS.

GOVERNOR WHITMER HAS TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO THE PEOPLE.

SHE'S RUNNING FOR A SECOND TERM.

UNANNOUNCED AT THIS POINT, NOT OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED WE ALL KNOW SHE'S RUNNING.

THE SECOND SHE SAYS SHE IS MANDATING MASKS THE WAY IT HAPPENED BEFORE, SHE IS GOING TO UNLEASH THE TEA PARTY ACROSS THE STATE, EVERY CONSERVATIVE AND SHE IS GOING TO WELCOME ALL SORTS OF LAWSUITS.

THAT IS A FIGHT THAT SHE DOESN'T WANT.

SHE MAY HAVE TO HAVE IT AS WE APPROACH THE FALL.

I THINK SHE'S PROBABLY WEIGHING THE POLITICAL DECISIONS VERSUS THE MEDICAL RECOMMENDATIONS AND MAY BE WAITING FOR THE NUMBERS TO GET WORSE FOR HER TO JUSTIFY MAKING THAT TYPE OF MANDATE.

>> Tim: WHAT ARE THE POINTS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION MAKES IS THAT BEFORE WHEN THERE WERE MASK MANDATES AND A SHUTDOWN, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE VACCINE.

NOW WE HAVE FREE VACCINES AND THAT DOES CHANGE THE PARADIGM ON THE STORY.

DOES IT NOT MAUGHER.

THE GOVERNOR CAN SAY BECAUSE OF THE VACCINE, WE WOULD BE OKAY.

>> IT'S DEFINITELY AN ARGUMENT YOU CAN MAKE.

IT IGNORES THE REALITY OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE STATES AND THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE SEEING RECORD NUMBERS OF CHILDREN HOSPITALIZED BECAUSE OF THIS VIRUS AND OTHER STATES RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE SEEING SCHOOL CLOSURES IN OTHER STATES WITH THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS HAVE BEEN TO QUARANTINE BECAUSE THE VIRUS IS SPREADING IN SCHOOLS.

WE DO HAVE VACCINES.

THEY ARE HELPING PEOPLE AVOID SERIOUS ILLNESS OVERALL.

KIDS UNDER THE AGE OF 12 AND I HAVE TWO OF THEM, DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THAT VACCINE RIGHT NOW.

MY KIDS WENT BACK TO SCHOOL ON WEDNESDAY.

THERE ARE KIDS ACROSS THE STATE WHO CAN'T GET VACCINATED GOING BACK TO SCHOOL IN THE COMING WEEKS.

>> Tim: ONE POINT ON VACCINES, WE DON'T HAVE EVERYBODY VACCINATED.

WE'VE GOT ABOUT 64% OF US WHO ARE THERE.

ALSO, THEY ARE RELYING ON THE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD CHAIN TO MAKE THIS DECISION.

SO FAR ONLY 60 HAVE SAID WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE MANDATORY MASK POLICY WHICH IS ONLY 11% OF THE SCHOOLS.

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?

>> RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE IN A VERY DIFFICULT BATTLE WITH PARENTS FOR THE MOST PART.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS, YOU HAVE PARENTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE MASKING ISSUE.

YOU GOT PARENTS WHO WANT THERE TO BE A MASK MANDATE AND YOU GOT PARENTS WHO DON'T WANT MASK MANDATE.

THEY ARE BOTH ATTENDING THESE MEETINGS.

THEY ARE CELLING AND FRUSTRATED AND THEY ARE UPSET.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO STATEWIDE MASK MANDATE, IT IS GETTING DOWN TO THAT LOCAL LEVEL FOR THEM TO FIGHT AND FIGURE OUT AND BE THE HEAVY ON THE ISSUE.

LOT OF THEM ARE JUST FRUSTRATED.

THEY'VE BEEN SAYING, WE ARE EDUCATION SPECIALIST.

WE'RE NOT PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST.

PLEASE GIVE US THE TOOLS TO DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO EDUCATE OUR KIDS SAFELY.

THEY ARE NOT GETTING THAT.

WHEN THE STATES DEFERRING TO THE LOCAL LEVEL AND THE LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENTS ARE REFERRING TO SCHOOL.

YOU CAN HAVE SITUATIONS WHERE PARENT HAVE KIDS IN TWO DIFFERENT SCHOOLS AND ONE KID HAS TO WEAR A MASK AND OTHER ONE DOESN'T.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HELPFUL FOR ANYBODY.

>> Tim: CHUCK, THE REPUBLICANS ARGUE THAT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL MANDATORY MASK MANDATE FOR MICHIGAN WILL NOT WORK.

COULD SOMEBODY ISSUE A MANDATE BASED ON REGIONS IS THAT NOT AN OPTION?

>> IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE.

YOU WOULD RATHER SEE SOMETHING THAT AFFECTS THE ENTIRE STATE.

HERE'S THE PROBLEM, YOUR DISTRICTS ARE VERY DIVERSE.

YOU HAVE VERY URBAN DISTRICTS IN WHICH LOT OF THE SUPERINTENDENTS ARE SAYING, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THIS BECAUSE OUR POPULATION IS DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED BY THE COVID-19 VACCINE AND ALL OF THIS.

YOU HAVE MORE RURAL DISTRICTS AND SOME OF YOUR SMALLER CITIES AND TOWNSHIPS THAT ARE SAYING, IT'S NOT AS BIG OF AN ISSUE IN OUR JURISDICTION AND WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO RESERVE THAT RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE LOCAL DECISIONS RATHER THAN HAVE SOMETHING HANDED ON HOW HIGH FROM LANSING.

LOOK WHAT'S GOING ON IN MT.

PLEASANT.

YOU GOT A SCHOOL BOARD FACING A POSSIBLE RECALL THERE.

THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN ALL OVER THE PLACE.

PARENTS ARE DIVIDED ON THIS ISSUE.

THERE ARE MANY PARENTS WHO BELIEVE THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE'S AMPLE SUPPLY, I WILL NOT GIVE MY VACCINE TO MY KID BECAUSE IT HASN'T RECEIVED THE APPROVAL DOWN THE LINE.

I'M WORRIED FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS FROM NOW, THEY MAY TURN AROUND AND SAY THIS VACCINE HAS NOT BEEN GOOD FOR MY CHILD'S HEALTH.

>> Tim: WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN WE SEND ALL THE KID BACK TO SCHOOL.

WITH WE HAVE OUTBREAKS OF COVID.

WE SEND THE KIDS BACK HOME.

THE GOVERNOR HAS TO BE LIGHTING CANDLES HOPE THAT DOES NOT WORK.

>> SHE'S TAKING A RISK HERE, WHICHEVER WAY SHE GOES.

IF SHE DOESN'T MANDATE MASKS STATEWIDE, WE COULD HAVE OUTBREAKS ACROSS THE STATE.

WE COULD BE PUTTING CHILDREN AT RISK IF THE VIRUS SURGES HERE.

WE COULD HAVE STAFF MEMBERS GETTING SICK.

ON AND ON.

IT'S HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES RIGHT NOW.

IF SHE DOES MANDATE MASKS, I THINK MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION WILL ACKNOWLEDGE, THEY WILL BE PROTEST ON THE CAPITOL LAWN.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A FOCUS THAT'S ON ALL THE SCHOOL BOARDS WHERE YOU HAVING INTENSE DEBATES.

IT'S GOING TO TURN TO THE GOVERNOR AGAIN.

SHE'S GOING TO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, AM I WILLING TO TAKE ON THIS POLITICAL AFFRONT THAT WILL COME MY WAY IF I DO THIS.

THIS IS A HIGH STAKES DECISION.

SHE'S MADE A NUMBER OF THESE HIGH STAKES DECISIONS.

THIS IS ONE THAT COMES CLOSER TO THE REELECTION YEAR.

THIS IS ONE THAT COMES AS WE KNOW MORE ABOUT THE CORONAVIRUS.

IT'S A REALLY TRICKY POSITION THAT SHE FINDS HERSELF IN, POLITICALLY.

MAY BE NOT WHEN IT COMES TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH GUIDANCE BUT POLITICALLY.

>> Tim: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE JUST LAYING IN THE WEEDS READY TO PUT TOGETHER A TV COMMERCIAL THAT WOULD SAY, THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC THE GOVERNOR SAID HER DECISIONS WILL BE BASED ON SCIENCE.

IF YOUR ADVISOR IS TELLING YOU THAT THE SCIENCE SAYS MASK UP, WHY ARE YOU NOT DOING THIS.

THEN WE'RE OFF AND RUNNING ON A CAMPAIGN ISSUE.

LET'S PURSUE THIS MASK ISSUE AS WE CALL IN OUR GUEST, TOM McMILLIN, THE REPUBLICAN MEMBER OF THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION.

MR. McMILLIN DOWN IN OAKLAND COUNTY.

GOOD MORNING, SIR.

>> HI THERE, GOOD MORNING.

>> Tim: IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR DOING OUR PROGRAM.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT MASKS WOULD HELP KIDS AVOID COVID-19?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IF WE LOOK AT RELATIVE RISK, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AGES 50 TO 64, ACCORDING TO THE CDC, WHO HAD BOTH SHOTS, ARE STILL 30 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE OF COVID THAN KIDS WHO ARE UNVACCINATED.

THAT'S JUST THE FACTS.

FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE 18 TO 49, THE KIDS ARE STILL TWO AND A HALF TIMES MORE SAFE FROM COVID.

>> Tim: BUT THE QUESTION WAS IF KIDS WEAR MASKS CAN THEY HELP AVOID COVID?

>> THE SPREAD -- IF THEY WERE FIVE MASKS IT WOULD REDUCE THE SPREAD.

THE FACT IS, THEY'RE NOT AT RISK.

THEY'RE AT MORE RISK DROWNING IN A POOL THAN DYING OF COVID.

>> Tim: MS. ROTH?

>> YOU'RE SAYING THEY'RE NOT AT RISK.

THERE ARE KIDS WHO HAVE DIED FROM COVID.

THERE ARE KIDS WHO GOTTEN SEVERELY ILL FROM COVID.

WE'RE SEEING HOSPITALS FILL UP.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE KIDS, IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE SPREAD AND THE PEOPLE THEY END UP BEING AROUND.

THOSE PEOPLE THEY COULD INFECT AND THEY'RE FROM THAT TRICKLE DOWN INTO OUR HOSPITAL SYSTEM.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH JUST HAVING THE KIDS WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, TO PROTECT THEIR FRIENDS AND PROTECT THE PEOPLE THEY COME IN CONTACT WITH?

>> OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THAT.

THEY DON'T CONCENTRATE AS WELL.

KIDS HAVE HEADACHES.

THEY HAVE IMPAIRED LEARNING.

WE KNOW THERE'S COSTS.

WE ALSO KNOW THE CDC SAID THAT KIDS ARE MORE AT RISK FROM THE FLU THAN THEY WERE OF COVID.

IT'S ON THEIR WEBSITE IF YOU WANT TO CHECK IT OUT.

I'M ASSUMING YOU WEREN'T ADVOCATING MASKING KIDS FOR THE FLU IN 2019.

INSIST JUST SOMETHING THAT'S UNNECESSARY.

THAT WAS THE ARGUMENT LAST YEAR, THEY MAY GO HOME AND GET SOMEBODY SICK.

THE VACCINES ARE AVAILABLE FOR ANYBODY WHO WANTS IT.

IT'S TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

IT'S CHILD ABUSE IN MY MIND TOO.

FORCE SOMETHING THAT'S UNNECESSARY THAT WILL BE HARMFUL.

>> Tim: MR. MAUGHER?

>> THE ARGUMENTS THAT YOU'RE MAKING, KIND OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU'RE MENTIONING FROM THE CDC, HAVE YOU UPDATED ANY OF THESE THOUGHTS?

BECAUSE OF THE DELTA VARIANT?

WE'RE SEEING THE NUMBER OF CASES AMONG KIDS IN MICHIGAN INCREASES PROPORTION OF OUR OVERALL CASES.

WE'RE SEEING ALL OF THEE HOSPITALIZATIONS AMONG KIDS IN THE SOUTH.

HAS THE DELTA VARIANT CHANGED YOUR THOUGHTS AT ALL?

ARE YOU OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE DELTA VARIANT IS MORE OF A THREAT TO CHILDREN?

>> I SEEN THE U.K.

IN EUROPE WHERE THE DELTA VARIANT PRETTY MUCH GONE THROUGH.

THAT WASN'T THE CASE.

LIKE I SAID, IF YOU ARE NOT ADVOCATING FOR MASKING AT WORK AMONG 50-YEAR-OLDS AND 40-YEAR-OLDS, THEY ARE AT MUCH MORE RISK, EVEN AFTER TWO VACCINES THAN KIDS WHO ARE UNVACCINATED AT SCHOOL.

I WISH THAT REPORTERS AND THE MEDIA WOULD TALK ABOUT RELATIVE RISK.

WHEN WAS LAST TIME YOU HEARD SOMEBODY SAID KIDS ARE LESS RISK OF COVID THAN THE FLU.

>> DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NOT HAVING KIDS WEAR MASK AT SCHOOL COULD SPREAD THE VIRUS TO THOSE IN 50 WHO YOU SAYING AT MORE RISK?

THAT IS A FACT HERE.

CHILDREN CANNOT ONLY GET THE VIRUS, THEY COULD SPREAD THE VIRUS?

>> THAT WAS THE ARGUMENT LAST YEAR WHEN THERE WAS NO VACCINES AVAILABLE.

THAT'S WHY THE GREAT DECLARATION TALKED ABOUT FOCUS PROTECTION.

IF YOU HAVE SOMEBODY WHO IS EXTREMELY ILL, YES, MAY BE THE CHILD SHOULD -- THEY CAN WEAR A MASK TO SCHOOL AND TAKE OTHER PRECAUTIONS.

BUT TO DAMAGE THE EDUCATION OF ALL KIDS BECAUSE THERE MIGHT BE A FEW THAT CAN TAKE THEIR OWN PRECAUTIONS, IT'S JUST UNWISE AND VERY HARMFUL AND BAD POLICY.

>> Tim: MR. STOKES?

>> MR. McMILLIN ON YOUR FACEBOOK PAGE, YOU HAVE EQUATED YOUNG PEOPLE, STUDENTS UNDER AGE 12, WEARING MASKS TO CHILD ABUSE.

YOU SAID THE SCHOOL BOARD YOU'RE A MEMBER OF THE STATE SCHOOL BOARD, LOCAL SCHOOL BOARDS SHOULD PAY MORE ATTENTION TO NOT DR. FAUCI BUT INSTEAD TO PARENTS.

HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THAT?

WHY DO YOU MAKE THOSE VERY STRONG STATEMENTS?

>> JUST IN THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL," LITTLE OVER A WEEK AGO, THE JOHN HOPKINS SCHOOL OF MEDICINE PROFESSOR AND TUFTS CHILDREN HOSPITAL CHIEF OF PEDIATRIC INFECTIOUS DISEASE SAID THE SAME THING.

IT'S A CHILD ABUSE WHEN YOU ARE FORCING SOMETHING ON THESE KIDS THAT'S GOING TO HARM THEM THAT IS UNNECESSARY.

I THINK THAT PARENTS -- THESE ARE POLITICIANS.

THEY ARE POLITICAL DECISIONS.

YOU HEARD WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS DISAGREEING WITH HER MEDICAL ADVISOR.

THE MEDICAL PEOPLE IN THE ESTABLISHMENT CAN SAY HERE ARE CONCERNS.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE MAKING POLICY.

>> WHEN YOU HEARD THE WORD CHILD ABUSE, YOU THINK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT CAN ACTUALLY BE HURTFUL TO SOMEONE.

SOMETHING THAT'S UNNECESSARY, MAY NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HURT SOMEONE.

DO YOU SEE THEM AS ONE IN THE SAME?

>> LOOK, WE WEREN'T ADVOCATING FOR MASKS IN 2019 BECAUSE IT WOULD HARM KIDS.

IT WOULD HARM THEIR EDUCATION.

THE FLU WAS A MORE OF PROBLEM TO KIDS AN COVID.

PARENTS, 20,000 PARENTS WERE SURVEYED IN GERMANY JUST LAST WEEK, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT 50% OF THE KIDS HAVE IMPAIRED LEARNING.

DIFFICULTY CONCENTRATING, HEADACHES, IRRITABILITY.

IT'S REALLY OWN THE PEOPLE WANT TO PUT THESE BIG RESTRICTIONS ON KIDS TO PROVE THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE DAMAGE AND IT'S HELPFUL.

THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

>> Tim: IS IT OKAY IF A LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD SAYS WE ARE MANDATING MASKS IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM?

ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT?

>> NO.

CERTAINLY IF A PARENT FEELS THAT FOR THE RISK OF THEIR PARTICULAR CHILD THAT THE MASK SHOULD BE WORN, THAT'S FINE.

THAT'S OBVIOUSLY FINE.

BUT TO SAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO AS A DISTRICT, HARM ALL KIDS, CLEARLY HARM ALL KIDS FOR NO REASON.

THERE'S NO REASON.

WE DIDN'T DO THIS FOR THE FLU.

WHICH IS WORSE THAN COVID FOR THE KIDS ACCORDING TO CDC.

WHY WOULD WE DO IT NOW?

>> Tim: WHEN YOU WERE IN THE LEGISLATURE, YOU WERE A STRONG ADVOCATE OF LOCAL CONTROL.

YOU JUST SAID IF A LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD USES THAT CONTROL AND MAKES THAT DECISION, THAT'S WRONG FOR THEM TO DO THAT.

SHOULDN'T YOU HONOR THAT DECISION?

THAT IS LOCAL CONTROL, ISN'T IT?

>> WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO BE HARMING CHILDREN, I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM.

I CERTAINLY FOR WHAT THEY WILL TEACH THE KIDS IN EDUCATION, ALTHOUGH I WAS THE ONE THAT WAS STRONGLY OPPOSING COMMON CORE STATEWIDE.

NONETHELESS, I THINK THIS IS A DECISION SHOULD HARM KIDS NECESSARY OR NOT.

THAT SHOULD BE SOMETHING THEY SHOULD NOT DO.

>> Tim: WOULDN'T YOU RESPECT THEIR DECISION IF THEY CONCLUDE THEY ARE PROTECTING THE CHILDREN NOT HARMING THEM.

>> WHEN YOU SAY RESPECT.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE STATE BOARD ISSUE WIDE MANDATES.

I CAN'T SAY THAT I WOULD ADVOCATE FOR SOMETHING THAT IS UNNECESSARY AND HARMFUL.

WE OPPOSED THINGS LIKE CHILD RESTRAINTS IN INSTANCES AND TOLD LOCALS YOU CAN'T DO THIS AS FAR AS RESTRAINING CHILDREN.

THERE'S CERTAIN AREAS THAT YOU SAY, IT MAKES NO SENSE TO DO THIS.

WHY HARM THESE CHILDREN?

>> Tim: MS. ROTH?

>> SO, HOW MANY CHILDREN WOULD NEED TO GET SERIOUSLY ILL OR DIE FROM COVID BEFORE YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND AND DECIDE THAT MASK MANDATES ARE A GOOD IDEA?

IS THERE A NUMBER?

>> WELL, LIKE I SAID, THIS IS LESS HARMFUL TO THE KIDS THAN THE FLU.

WERE YOU ASKING THAT IN 2019 WHEN SHOULD KIDS BE MASKED FOR THE FLU?

>> ISN'T THE FLU.

THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THIS IS WE'RE STILL GRAPPLING WITH.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES OF COVID ARE.

WHAT I'M ASKING YOU IS, HOW MANY CHILDREN WE NEED TO GET SERIOUSLY ILL AND HOSPITALIZED OR DIE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN FROM COVID BEFORE YOU DECIDE THAT, MAY BE MASKS ARE A GOOD IDEA?

>> WE DON'T KNOW THE LONG-TERM IMPACT OF THIS MASKING.

WE'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE OF CHILDREN.

THIS IS HORRIBLE WHAT'S GOING ON.

WITH THAT LOGIC THAT YOU'RE USING, WE SHOULD CLOSE ALL POOL, BECAUSE THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO DIE DROWNING IN A POOL THAN COVID.

>> YOU CAN KEEP KIDS AWAY FROM POOLS.

BUT THEY NEED TO BE IN SCHOOL.

THEY CAN'T NOT BE AWAY FROM THEIR FELLOW STUDENTS.

I'M SEEING THE COMPARISON THERE.

>> WELL, THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.

THAT IS KIND OF WHY WE'RE IN THIS SITUATION.

BECAUSE REPORTERS AND NEWS PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE COMPARISON OF RELATIVE RISKS.

>> Tim: MR. MAUGHER?

>> TOM, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO A PARENT, THIS HAS BEEN A TOPIC SURROUNDING FREEDOM.

THIS IS ABOUT FREEDOM.

PEOPLE'S FREEDOM TO CHOOSE.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PARENTS WHO ARE PARENTS OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE UNDERLYING CONDITIONS.

THEY MIGHT HAVE IMMUNE SYSTEMS THAT ARE COMPROMISED AND THEY ARE FEARFUL OF SENDING THEIR CHILD TO A SCHOOL WHERE OTHER STUDENTS ARE NOT WEARING MASKS.

THEY'RE MADE THE DECISION THAT THE BEST THING IS FOR ALL THE STUDENTS IN THE CLASS TO HAVE A MASK ON TO PROTECT THEIR CHILD.

DO THEY HAVE ANY FREEDOM TO BE ABLE TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL WITHOUT FEAR OF WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM.

>> WELL, THERE'S CERTAINLY CHILDREN HAVE DIFFERENT COMPROMISING SITUATIONS.

SOME AREN'T TO THE LEVEL WHERE A PARENT SAYS I WILL NOT SEND MY CHILD TO SCHOOL AND NEVER HAS.

THEY HOME SCHOOLED THEM.

THEY FOUND OTHER ALTERNATIVE WAYS THAT THEY CAN GET COMFORTABLE WITH THE SAFETY MEASURES.

TO SAY THAT 99% OF THE KIDS OR EVEN MORE ARE NOT IN ANY HARM, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING AND HARM THEM AND THEIR EDUCATION AND THEIR MENTAL HEALTH AS WELL WHAT THIS IS DOING TO MENTAL HEALTH.

IN THOSE INDIVIDUAL INSTANCES, THEY NEED TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS TO ALLEVIATE THOSE RISKS.

>> Tim: MR. STOKES?

>> IF YOU WERE STILL THE MAYOR OF AUBURN HILLS AND THE DELTA VARIANT WAS EXPLODING IN YOUR CITY AND YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE ULTIMATELY TO PEOPLE TO GET REELECTED, WOULD YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT POSITION AS A STATE SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER?

>> EXPLODING.

THAT'S A TERM -- IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT 50% OF PEOPLE WERE DYING.

THAT MIGHT BE ONE THING.

IF WE'RE SAYING LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ARE GETTING AFFECTED WITH NO CONSEQUENCE OR THEY HAVE VACCINES, THOSE THAT ARE AT RISK CAN PROTECT THEMSELVES.

NO THESE LOCKDOWNS AND THINGS ARE THINGS WE'VE NEVER DONE BEFORE.

THOUSANDS AND TEN OF THOUSANDS OF EPIDEMIOLOGISTS AND DOCTORS SAY THIS IS UNWISE.

YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING CENSORED AND THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.

>> Tim: WHEN YOU GO OUT TO THE GROCERY STORE, DO YOU WEAR A MASK?

>> NO.

>> Tim: HAVE YOU BEEN VACCINATED?

>> I DON'T SHARE MY MEDICAL INFORMATION.

SORRY.

>> Tim: WOW.

OKAY.

HAVE YOU BEEN VACCINATED?

>> I EDON'T FEEL THAT I'M COMPELLED TO SAY THAT.

>> Tim: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

THANKS TO OUR PANELIST, MR. MAUGHER WELCOME TO THE "OFF THE RECORD" RECORD.

EVERYBODY SEE YOU NEXT WEEK HERE ON "OFF THE RECORD."

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