♪♪ ♪♪ >>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

UKRAINE TAKES THE FIGHT TO RUSSIA WITH ANOTHER DRONE ATTACK ON MOSCOW.

BUT IS RUSSIA DIGGING IN FOR A BIGGER WAR?

WE TAKE THE LONG VIEW WITH ANALYST ALEXANDER GABUEV AND FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL KARIN VON HIPPEL.

THEN SAUDI ARABIA WILL HOST UKRAINE PEACE TALKS WITHOUT RUSSIA AT THE TABLE.

COULD THIS MEAN MORE GLOBAL POR FOR UKRAINE?

I ASK PATRICK GASPARD, FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH AFRICA.

ALSO, AS FOREIGN NATIONALS FLEE NIGER, WHAT WILL A COUP MEAN FOR AFRICA AND THE WORLD?

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>>> HELLO.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

UKRAINE SENDS ANOTHER MESSAGE TO MOSCOW WITH A SECOND DRONE ATTACK TARGETING THE SAME OFFICE BUILDING HOUSING RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICES.

THAT'S TWO STRIKES IN THREE DAYS.

THE KREMLIN WAVES OFF WHAT IT CALLS A FAILED TERRORIST ATTACK.

HERE IS KREMLIN SPOKESPERSON -- >> NO, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT DRONE ATTACKS CAN BE CALLED SUCCESSES FOR THE KYIV REGIME.

THEY HAVE HAD NO SUCCESSES.

OBVIOUSLY, THE UKRAINIAN COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS NOT WORKING OUT THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED BY KYIV.

>> RUSSIA'S DEADLY ATTACKS ON UKRAINE CIVILIANS CONTINUE.

ON MONDAY MISSILES STRUCK KRYVYI RIH, VOLODYMR ZELENSKYY'S HOMETOWN.

AS THE WAR GRINDS ON VLADIMIR PUTIN IS DIGGING IN.

A NEW LAW RAISES THE CONSCRIPTION AGE FROM 27 TO 30, SO THAT LARGE NUMBERS OF RUSSIAN MEN WILL NOW BE AVAILABLE FOR COMBAT.

IN COLUMN IN THE "FINANCIAL TIMES" ONE OF MY GUESTS TODAY POINTS TO MOVES LIKE THIS AS EVIDENCE THAT IN FACT, QUOTE, PUTIN IS LOOKING FOR A BIGGER WAR, NOT AN OFF-RAMP UKRAINE.

HE IS RUSSIA ANALYST ALEXANDER GABUEV DIRECTOR OF THE CARNDY ENDOWMENT EURASIA CENTER.

ALSO JOINING US KARIN VON HIPPEL, FORMERLY A SENIOR COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISOR AT THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.

SO BEFORE WE GET TO THE BIGGER ISSUE OF WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S INTENSIONS ARE, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SEEING, I BELIEVE THIS IS NOW THE SIXTH DRONE ATTACK TARGETED INSIDE OF RUSSIA AND THE THIRD OR FOURTH THAT HAS REALLY HIT MOSCOW CENTRAL.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THIS?

ARE THESE AT LEAST PSYCHOLOGICALLY EFFECTIVE ATTACKS, OR AS U.S. GENERAL SPIDER MARKS SAID TODAY, THEY ARE A WASTE OF CAPACITY AND A WASTE OF UKRAINE'S TIME?

>> YEAH, IT'S A LITTLE BIT HARD TO SAY BECAUSE THERE HAVEN'T BEEN THAT MANY, WHICH IS SURPRISING.

I THINK UKRAINE IS TRYING TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT THEY CAN GO INSIDE RUSSIA, BUT THEY ARE BEING VERY CAREFUL BECAUSE THEY ARE GETTING A LOT OF ASSISTANCE, OBVIOUSLY, FROM THE WEST, AND THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DO ONLY TARGET MILITARY OR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND NOT CIVILIAN AREAS.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN SOME WAYS IT'S A SURPRISE THAT THEY HAVEN'T TARGETED INSIDE RUSSIA MORE GIVEN THAT THEY DO HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO SO.

>> OBVIOUSLY, YOU CAN'T KPAUR THE TOOLS WITH WHICH THE TWO SIDES ARE TARGETING EACH OTHER, A DRONE CANNOT CAUSE THE TYPE OF DAMAGE THAT CRUISE MISSILES CAUSE IN TERMS OF WHAT RUSSIA IS SENDING INTO UKRAINIAN CITIES ON A DAILY BASIS.

ALEX, EXPAND THE CONVERSATION AND TALK MORE ABOUT THE POINT YOU MAKE, THAT UNLIKE MANY WHO SUGGEST PERHAPS VLADIMIR PUTIN IS LOOKING FOR AN OFF-RAMP, YOU BELIEVE THAT HE IS DUG IN AND HE IS IN THIS WAR FOR THE LONG RUN.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT, ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHERE THIS WAR STANDS TODAY.

>> WE DON'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE FOR HIM REALLY LOOKING FOR AN OFF-RAMP, CHANNELS FOR HONEST NEGOTIATION OR SEEING HIM IN A REALLY TOUGH SPOT BECAUSE, IF YOU TRY TO PLACE YOURSELF IN THE KREMLIN, AND YOU LOOK AT THE FUNDAMENTALS, THE FUNDAMENTALS HERE IS THAT RUSSIA IS A COUNTRY THAT CAN MOBILIZE ABOUT FOUR TIMES MORE MEN THAN UKRAINE.

THAT'S THE FACT.

AND EXPANSION OF THIS MILITARY AGE LIMIT HELPS YOU TO BRING MORE MEN TO THE FRONT LINE.

THE MILITARY INDUSTRY IS WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK WITH THE ONLY GOAL TO PROVIDE ENOUGH WEAPONS TO DESTROY UKRAINE.

AND YOU ARE ALSO TRYING TO DENY UKRAINE MEANS OF LIVING BY WALKING OUT OF THE GRAIN INITIATIVE, DESTROYING CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE TO INCREASE THE FLOW OF REFUGEES.

YOUR BET IS THAT OVER THE LONG RUN THE WEST WILL LOSE CAPACITY TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND THE POLITICAL INTEREST WILL GO DOWN.

AND THAT'S WHERE EITHER YOU REALIZE YOUR INITIAL PLAN, WHICH IS TAKE CONTROL OF UKRAINE AND INSTALL A PUPPET GOVERNMENT, OR IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE OFFENSIVE CAPACITY, WHICH IS MORE LIKELY, YOU AT LEAST MAKE UKRAINE BROKEN, UNLIVABLE, AND THAT'S THE REVENGE.

THAT'S WHERE WE SEE HIM GOING AT THIS POINT.

>> AND YOU ARE SEEING A RUSSIAN ECONOMY THAT TO THIS POINT HAS PROVEN TO BE RATHER RESILIENT, GROWING AT OVER 2% THIS YEAR.

MANY ANALYSTS EXPECTED A DECLINE IN ECONOMIC GROWTH AND YOU JUST LOOK AT THE IMPACT EVER THE WAR, IT HAS HAD AN UKRAINE, WHERE YOU HAVE SEEN MASSIVE HIT TO THEIR ECONOMY AND, AS ALEX NOTES, THIS IS PART OF THE PLAN IN TERMS OF RUSSIA'S STRATEGY TO CHOKE OFF THE ECONOMY AS WELL AS CONTINUE TO HIT THE COUNTRY WITH ITS WAR EFFORTS.

CAN I GET YOU TO WEIGH IN, KARIN, ON SOMETHING THAT ALEX WROTE IN THIS PIECE.

HE SAID THAT THE KREMLIN HOPES THE REBUILDING OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY AND DISSEMINATION OF THE UKRAINIAN ARMY AND ARMED FORCES RESULTS IN GROWING WESTERN FRUSTRATION AND DECLINE OF MATERIAL SUPPORT FOR KYIV.

AS WESTERN LEADERS THINK ABOUT POLICIES TO SUPPORT UKRAINE INTO THE THIRD YEAR OF THIS UGLY WAR, ANY LONG-TERM STRATEGY MUST TAKE THIS REALITY INTO ACCOUNT.

DO YOU VIEW WESTERN GOVERNMENTS AS TAKING THIS REALITY INTO ACCOUNT?

>> WELL, YOU KIND OF REALLY TALK ABOUT LONG-TERM IN THIS SITUATION, BECAUSE IN THE SENSE IT'S REALLY ABOUT THE NEXT YEAR AND A BIT UNTIL THE U.S.

ELECTIONS.

WHEN THE U.S.

ELECTIONS HAPPEN IT'S HARD TO SAY.

IF DONALD TRUMP WINS AGAIN, WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN?

THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE UKRAINIANS TO PUSH BACK AS MUCH AS THEY CAN OVER THE NEXT YEAR.

I THINK EVERYONE'S GOING TO BE REALISTIC ABOUT WHAT IS ACHIEVABLE.

I SUSPECT IF THE UKRAINIANS CAN GAIN MORE GROUND, ESPECIALLY IN THE EASTERN REGIONS, THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO GO TO THE TABLE, THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, FROM A POSITION OF NOT SAYING, YOU KNOW, TOTAL STRENGTH, BUT STRONGER THAN THEY ARE NOW.

LONG TERM THE U.S. TALKS ABOUT THAT A LOT.

THEY SAY WE ARE HERE FOR THE LONG TERM, BUT THEY CAN'T PROMISE THAT.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT WHEN IT WENT FROM PRESIDENT OBAMA TO DONALD TRUMP.

HE JUST RENEGED ON A NUMBER OF DEALS.

THERE IS LONG TERM AND THEN THERE IS REALLY REALISTIC TERM, WHICH IS THE NEXT YEAR AND A BIT, REALLY, UNTIL THE 2024 ELECTIONS.

>> YOU MENTIONED DONALD TRUMP.

ALEX, ACCORDING TO THE LATEST "NEW YORK TIMES" POLLING, IT LOOKS LIKE DONALD TRUMP AND JOE BIDEN ARE NECK-AND-NECK, BOTH AT 43%, GOING INTO THE NEXT ELECTION.

THIS IS AFTER A NUMBER OF INDICTMENTS.

WE ARE EXPECTING ANY MOMENT NOW, PERHAPS A THIRD INDICTMENT AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GUESS AS TO HOW HE FEELS ABOUT THIS WAR AND HOW TO BRING IT TO AN END.

HE SAID SO ANYTIME HE GETS THE OPPORTUNITY, INCLUDING OVER THIS PAST WEEKEND, WHERE HE SORT OF RESUSCITATED EVERYTHING THAT LED UP TO HIS FIRST IMPEACHMENT AND THAT IS A QUID PRO QUO WITH UKRAINE, WITHHOLDING AID IN EXCHANGE FOR DIRT ON THE BIDEN FAMILY.

WELL, HERE'S WHAT HE JUST SAID A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO.

>> JOE BIDEN IS COMPROMISED.

HE IS DRAGGING US INTO A GLOBAL CONFLICT ON BEHALF OF THE SAME COUNTRY, UKRAINE, THAT APPARENTLY PAID HIS FAMILY ALL OF THESE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

IN LIGHT OF THIS INFORMATION, THE U.S. CONGRESS SHOULD REFUSE TO AUTHORIZE A SINGLE ADDITIONAL PAYMENT OF OUR DEPLETED STOCKPILES.

BUT THE WEAPONS STOCKPILES TO UKRAINE UNTIL THE FBI, DOJ AND IRS HAND OVER EVERY SCRAP OF EVIDENCE THEY HAVE ON THE BIDEN CRIME FAMILY'S CORRUPT BUSINESS DEALINGS.

WE HAVE TO KNOW AND THE PUBLIC DESERVES TO KNOW.

IN ADDITION, CONGRESS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY VOTE TO BLOCK JOE BIDEN'S RECENT CALL-UP OF RESERVE FORCES.

WE ARE SENDING TROOPS OVER TO EUROPE TO FIGHT.

>> WE ARE NOT SENDING TROOPS OVER TO EUROPE TO FIGHT IN THIS WAR.

THERE IS SO MUCH TO GET INTO IN WHAT HE SAID.

SPECIFICALLY, IN TERMS OF WITHHOLDING AID, HE SAID IF HE IS BACK IN OFFICE THIS WAR WILL COME TO AN END IN ONE DAY.

HOW ARE COMMENTS LIKE THIS RECEIVED IN THE KREMLIN AND HOW DO YOU EXPECT THEY ARE RECEIVED IN KYIV?

>> I THINK THAT THE KREMLIN DEFINITELY HOPES THAT DONALD TRUMP IS BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

OF COURSE, WE WITNESSED THAT DESPITE TRUMP'S INCLINATIONS TO MAKE DEALS AND BE BEST FRIENDS WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN, THE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA HAS MOUNTED, AND DURING TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION SOME LETHAL AID HAS BEEN SUPPLIED TO UKRAINE, BUT THIS TIME IT MIGHT BE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

OBVIOUSLY, GETTING RID OF JOE BIDEN IS ONE OF THE JACKPOTS THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN HOPES TO STRIKE.

IN KYIV, OBVIOUSLY, THAT INCREASES A LOT OF -- IF THIS IS GONE AND THERE IS A DIFFERENT TEAM, THERE IS A LOT OF BAD BLOOD BETWEEN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND TRUMP.

WHO KNOWS HOW VIGOROUS AND EFFICIENT THE U.S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE WILL BE.

THAT'S PROBABLY WHERE THE CONGRESS CAN ACTUALLY PLAY A ROLE AUTHORIZING A LONG-TERM PROGRAM FOR SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

>> WELL, WE'LL SEE WHERE CONGRESS AND SPECIFICALLY DEPENDS ON WHO IS IN CONTROL OF CONGRESS, WHO THEY WOULD ALIGN WITH.

FOR THE MOST PART, YOU STILL SEE OVERWHELMING SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND CONTINUED SUPPORT FOR MILITARY AID, BUT, KARIN, AS YOU SAID, A LOT IS RIDING ON THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE, WHETHER THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S FAIR OR NOT, AND I'M CURIOUS IF YOU THINK THAT EUROPEANS VIEW THINGS TURNING PERHAPS A 180 HERE, THAT EARLY IN THE WAR IT WAS THE AMERICANS WHO WERE DECISIVELY SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND THE EUROPEANS, WERE A BIT RELUCTANT GIVEN THEIR ECONOMIC TIES TO RUSSIA, AND SOME ARE SUGGESTING THAT PERHAPS THE TABLES HAVE TURNED NOW AND THAT THE EUROPEANS HAVE CHANGED SOME OF THEIR BEHAVIOR AND THEIR STRATEGIC ALANESES AND NOW ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHERE THE UNITED STATES STANDS LONGER TERM.

>> YEAH, RIGHT.

I MEAN, OF COURSE, THE UK HAS ALWAYS BEEN ALL IN.

IN SOME WAYS, THE UK LEANED IN MORE THAN THE UNITED STATES.

THE U.S. APPRECIATES THE WAY THE UK HAS DONE THAT.

YOU LOOK AT FRANCE AND YOU -- YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT OFF-RAMPS EARLIER.

MACRON WAS EARLY ON SAYING WE NEED TO NOT HUMILIATE PUTIN, WE NEED TO GIVE HIM AN OFF-RAMP.

PUTIN HUMILIATES MACRON IN MALI AND MACRON'S FORCES HAVE TO LEAVE, REPLACED BY WAGNER FORCES, RUSSIAN MERCENARY FORCES.

SO I DO THINK SOME LESSONS ARE BEING LEARNED BY SOME OF THE EUROPEANS THAT WERE PERHAPS TRYING TO BE A BIT MORE EVEN HANDED EARLIER ON.

SO I THINK THEY ARE MORE NERVOUS ABOUT A DONALD TRUMP AND ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE U.S.'S ABILITY TO LEAD.

THE U.S.

STILL IS PROVIDING THE BULK OF ASSISTANCE, BUT OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE HELPING IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY.

>> AND, ALEX, KARIN BRINGS UP THE WAGNER GROUP.

I AM CURIOUS IF SEE ANY IMPACT FROM THAT FAILED MUTINY BY YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN IN JUNE IN TERMS OF HOW LONG, HOW MUCH TIME PUTIN BELIEVES HE HAS ON HIS SIDE.

CLEARLY, THAT WAS AN EMBARRASSMENT FOR HIM.

PRIGOZHIN STILL IS AROUND.

WE SEE PICTURES OF HIM.

HE IS MEETING WITH WORLD LEADERS.

SO IT HAS YET TO BE DETERMINED WHAT FALLOUT IS TO COME FOR HIM.

BUT DO YOU SEE THAT IMPACTING PUTIN'S LONGER-TERM VISION FOR THIS WAR IN PARTICULAR?

>> WE DON'T ABSENTEE SEE ANY MEANINGFUL CRACKS IN THE REGIME AND IN THE WAY THAT PUTIN'S SYSTEM IS HOLDING GRIP ON THE RUSSIAN SOCIETY AND THE RUSSIAN LEAD, AFFECTED BY THE NEWT ANY.

RUSSIANS ARE NOW IN THE HOLOCAUST SEASON AND THAT'S DEFINITELY YESTERDAY'S NEWS.

YES, THEY'VE SEEN PUTIN PROCRASTINATING, DELAYING A NEEDED DECISION AND EMOTIONAL, BUT THAT'S NOT NEW NEWS FOR MANY RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

WE ALSO SEE THAT THE REGIME IS INJECTING MORE RESOURCES INTO TARGETING THE CRITICS AND REPRESSING THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE NOTORIOUS COMMANDER, FORMERLY, AND THE COLONEL WHO WAS INVOLVED IN STAGING UPRISING IN EASTERN UKRAINE AND THAT BRINGING WAR TO UKRAINIAN TERRITORY WAS RECENTLY CHARGED AND PUT BEHIND BARS.

I THINK THAT ONLY STRENGTHENS PUTIN'S GRIP ON POWER AT THE MOMENT.

>> DO YOU SEE ANY -- IN THE INTERIM, ANY OPPORTUNITY FOR PUTIN TO CHANGE WAR LEADERSHIP AT ALL IN TERMS OF HIS DEFENSE MINISTER?

>> I THINK THAT'S POSSIBLE.

HE DEFINITELY WILL NOT BE DOING THAT UNDER PRESSURE OR BECAUSE PRIGOZHIN OR ANYBODY ELSE ISN'T HAPPY WITH HIS MILITARY LEADERSHIP.

AND IT ALSO IS A COMPLICATED TASK BECAUSE YOU NEED TO PUT A PERSON WHO IS COMPETENT BUT NOT OVERLY POPULAR, NOT COMING FROM THE ARMY.

YOU NEED AN OUTSIDER, AND THAT'S WHAT THE PREDECESSOR HAVE BEEN DOING FOR PUTIN.

PUTIN IS ENTERING AN ELECTION CYCLE.

HE HAS AN ELECTION IN MARCH NEXT YEAR.

THEN THE RUSSIAN TRADITION IS THE GOVERNMENT -- SO THAT WILL BE AN APPROPRIATE TIME TO CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP OF THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE TO SOMEBODY MORE COMPETENT, BUT ALSO NOT TOO POPULAR WITH THE TROOPS, NOT TO CREATE RIVAL OR POTENTIAL CHALLENGE FOR MR. PUTIN HIMSELF.

>> ALL RIGHT.

ALEXANDER GABUEV AND KARIN VON HIPPEL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

REALLY ENLIGHTENING CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU.

>> GREAT BEING WITH YOU.

>>> WELL, THROUGH MORE THAN A YEAR OF FIGHTING, CRITICAL COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA AND BRAZIL ARE STAYING NEUTRAL IN RUSSIAN'S UKRAINE WAR.

RECENT DEVELOPMENTS INDICATE THAT THE GROUND MIGHT BE SHIFTING.

FIRST SAUDI ARABIA PLANS TO HOST TALKS ON UKRAINE'S PEACE PLAN, INVITING WESTERN AND DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.

RUSSIA IS NOT EXPECTED TO ATTEND.

U.S. OFFICIALS HOPE THE TALKS CONSOLIDATE FOR FOR PEACE TERMS FAVORING UKRAINE.

ALSO A SUMMIT BETWEEN VLADIMIR PUTIN AND AFRICAN LEADERS WAS LESS THAN STELLAR SUCCESS.

MANY HEADS OF STATE SAT OUT THE SUMMIT AND SOME CRITICIZED RUSSIA'S DECISION TO SHUT DOWN GRAIN EXPORTS FROM UKRAINE.

WHERE MIGHT ALL OF THIS BE HEADED?

PATRICK GASPARD WAS AMERICA'S AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH AFRICA UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.

HE IS NOW CEO OF THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU, PATRICK.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE STATUS OF AFRICAN SUPPORT FOR RUSSIA.

THE LAST TIME YOU WERE ON THE SHOW, WHICH WAS MAY, SEEMS LIKE LIGHT YEARS AGO, BUT JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO, YOU SAID THAT IT IS DISCONCERTING THAT SOME OF THE RHETORIC FROM SOUTH AFRICA OR BRICS NATIONS HAS HELD UKRAINE AND THE NATO NATIONS RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTIN'S AGGRESSIVE LEGAL INCURSION.

FAST FORWARD.

WE SAW THE SUMMIT IN ST. PETERSBURG.

PUTIN CONTINUES TO VIEW AFRICA AS SOME, QUOTE, KEY PARTNERS, YET THERE WERE ONLY 17 AFRICAN HEADS OF STATE THIS YEAR VERSUS 43 BACK IN 2019.

CLEARLY, THERE IS STILL AN ALLIANCE BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES AND CONTINENTS AND COLLABORATION.

BUT IN TERMS OF THE STRENGTH OF THEIR UNITY, HOW WOULD YOU RATE IT RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, YOU THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

I SAID THAT THE LAST TIME I WAS ON THE SHOW, AND IT'S CLEAR THAT THE POLITICAL RHETORIC HAS ACTUALLY RUN AGROUND AND HAS ENCOUNTERED ECONOMIC REALITY.

SO THERE IS AN HISTORIC RELATIONSHIP THAT GOES BACK TO THE COLD WAR PERIOD WITH THE SOVIET UNION AND AFRICAN STATES.

BUT IT IS MUCH FRACTURED AND MODERN DAY RUSSIA PLAYS A MINIMAL ROLE ON THE AFRICAN CONTINENT.

I THINK THAT THEY ARE OUTSIDE OF THE TOP TEN IN TRADE WITH THE CONTINENT AND DIRECT INVESTMENT.

THIS SUMMIT IN ST. PETERSBURG WAS MEANT TO BE A MOMENT OF RENEWAL.

IT WAS MEANT TO DEMONSTRATE TO THE WORLD THAT PUTIN IS NOT ISOLATED DESPITE WHAT THE WEST IS SAYING ABOUT HIM.

THEY ANTICIPATED TO HAVE TREMENDOUS TURNOUT IN ST. PETERSBURG, BUT IT ALL FELL FLAT.

AS YOU NOTED, ONLY 17 AFRICAN HEADS OF STATE ATTENDED, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST SUMMIT THAT THEY HAD IN 2019, WHERE PUTIN VOWED THAT HE WAS GOING TO DOUBLE TRADE BETWEEN AFRICA AND RUSSIA, TAKE IT TO ABOUT $40 BILLION PER ANNUM, INCREASE GRAIN SUPPLY ON THE CONTINENT AND ENERGY SUPPLY ON THE CONTINENT, ALL OF THAT, INSTEAD OF DOUBLING, HAS RUN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

AS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF PUTIN'S WAR ON UKRAINE, ENERGY PRICES IN AFRICA HAVE ABSOLUTELY, YOU KNOW, GROWN THREEFOLD IN SOME INSTANCES, INFLATION HAS RUN AWAY, AND BECAUSE PUTIN ON THE AGREEMENT THAT ALLOW GRAIN FROM UKRAINE TO MOVE TO THE CONTINENT, THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO DOZEN AFRICAN NATIONS SEEING HIGH PRICES IN WHEAT AND SIGNIFICANT FOOD INSECURITY.

KENYA'S FOREIGN MINISTER CALLED PUTIN'S MOVE ON THE GRAIN EMBARGO AN ABSOLUTE BETRAYAL.

SO THOSE RELATIONSHIPS ARE ABSOLUTELY FRAGILE BETWEEN AFRICA AND RUSSIA.

>> VLADIMIR PUTIN PULLED OUT OF THE GRAIN DEAL.

MANY ANALYSTS KNEW IT WOULD UPSET AFRICAN COUNTRIES, BUT IN PUTIN'S CALCULUS IT WOULD BE A HARD HIT ON UKRAINE'S ECONOMY.

HERE IS WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN SAID IN RESPONSE TO WESTERN CRITICISM OF HIS DECISION TO PULL OUT OF THE DEAL.

>> Translator: WE SENT ALMOST 10 MILLION TONS TO AFRICA.

OBVIOUSLY, IN THE CONDITIONS OF THE LEGITIMATE SANCTIONS WHICH MAKES IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR RUSSIA TO SEND FOOD TO AFRICA.

LOGISTICS, BANKING AND TRANSFERS, WE ARE THE PARADOXLE PICTURE HERE.

ON ONE HAND, WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE.

>> Reporter:ING THE SUPPLY OF OUR GRAIN AND FERTILIZERS TO AFRICA.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IN A HYPOCRITICAL MANNER THEY BLAME US FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS.

>> DID PUTIN MAKE A MISCALCULATION HERE IN HIS DECISION TO PULL OUT?

>> YEAH, IT'S A GROSS MISCALCULATION.

EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS DONE FROM THE MOMENT HE DECIDED TO INVADE UKRAINE HAS BEEN A MISCALCULATION ABROAD AND ALSO AT HOME IN RUSSIA ITSELF.

IN AFRICA NOW, WE ARE SEEING THE COMMUNICATION CHANGE FROM ONE OF NON-ALIGNMENT TO AN AGGRESSIVE SET OF CALLS FOR RUSSIA TO ENTER INTO PEACE NEGOTIATIONS WITH UKRAINE AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

HE NOTED IN HIS REMARKS THE GRAIN THAT THEY ARE NOW MOVING TO AFRICA, THEY ARE MOVING THAT GRAIN TO FIVE AFRICAN NATIONS THAT VOTED WITH RUSSIA AT THE UNITED NATIONS AGAINST THE SANCTIONS REGIME.

SO IT'S VERY CALCULATED, VERY TARGETED TO TRY TO BOLSTER THOSE ALLIES, AND I SHOULD ALSO ADD THAT ANOTHER PRESENCE AT THAT AFRICA SUMMIT WAS, OF COURSE, THE LEADER OF THE WAGNER MERCENARY UNIT INVOLVED IN ENCOURAGING COUPS IN THE CONTINENT.

SO THEY ARE HAVING DESTABILIZING IMPACT ON AFRICAN ECONOMY AND ON AFRICAN DEMOCRACIES.

ALL OF THAT ANXIETY WAS FELT IN ST. PETERSBURG BY THE LEADERS.

THEY SENT OUT A CLEAR CALL ON THE NEED FOR PEACE AND THE NEED FOR PUTIN TO PULL BACK FROM THIS EXCURSION.

>> YEAH, AND YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, THE LEADER OF THE WAGNER GROUP, HAS BEEN ENCOURAGING THE RECENT COUP IN NIGER THE PAST WEEK, WHICH WE WILL GET TO IN OUR NEXT SEGMENT.

LET ME ASK ABOUT THE UPCOMING TALKS IN SAUDI ARABIA THIS WEEKEND.

I WOULD SAY EXPECTATIONS ARE VERY LOW, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT RUSSIA IS NOT EVEN EXPECTED TO ATTEND.

BUT IT'S INTERESTING THE DECISION TO HOST IT IN SAUDI ARABIA BECAUSE OF SAUDI ARABIA'S CLOSER TIES NOW WITH CHINA.

ARE AND CHINA BEING VIEWED AS PERHAPS SOMEBODY THAT -- OR A COUNTRY THAT CAN CONVINCE VLADIMIR PUTIN WHETHER IT'S THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS OR THROUGH ANY SORT OF LEVERAGE TO FINALLY COME TO SOME SORT OF A RESOLUTION.

WHAT ARE YOU EXPECTING TO COME OUT OF THIS SUMMIT, AND WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CHOICE OF SAUDI ARABIA HERE?

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT TO INDICATE THAT THE EXPECTATIONS ARE EXCEEDINGLY LOW, PARTICULARLY PARTICIPATING DIRECTLY IN THE NEGOTIATIONS IT'S ANOTHER SIGN OF INCREASED ISOLATION OF PUTIN AND RUSSIA AND SAUDI ARABIA'S INVOLVEMENT IS CLEARLY CONNECTED TO HEIGHTENED INTEREST IN CHINA TO ARRIVE AT SOME KOINT OF RESOLUTION TO THE CRISIS IN UKRAINE.

ONE WOULD HOPE THAT CHINA'S TAKING THE RIGHT LESSONS FROM ALL THAT'S FALLEN RUSSIA AND PUTIN SINCE THE INVASION.

IT'S BEEN CLEAR FOR SOME TIME THAT THEY HAVE THEIR OWN UNIQUE DESIGNS ON TAIWAN AND ONE HOPES THAT THEY CAN SEE THAT THE WORLD WILL RESPOND HARSHLY FROM THOSE KINDS OF INVASIONS OF SOVEREIGN STATES.

I DO THINK THAT SAUDI ARABIA AND CHINA TOGETHER HAVE AGAIN SPECIAL ABILITY TO LEVERAGE THEIR ENERGY RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA, THE BROAD ECONOMIC TRADE PARTNERSHIP WITH THAT NATION TO YET AGAIN BE ANOTHER PIECE OF THE PUZZLE TO, HOPEFULLY, GET VLADIMIR PUTIN TO BACK DOWN, MAKE IMMEDIATE CONCESSIONS AND PULL OUT OF THE UKRAINE.

>> QUICKLY, IN THE FINAL MOMENTS WE HAVE TOGETHER, PUT YOUR U.S.

POLITICS HAT ON FOR A MOMENT.

>> ALWAYS HAPPY TO.

>> I KNEW YOU WOULD BE.

AND RESPOND TO THE LATEST POLLING THAT WE'RE SEEING THAT SHOW JOE BIDEN AND DONALD TRUMP NECK-AND-NECK IN A HYPOTHETICAL MATCHUP AT THIS POINT.

I MEAN, THIS IS COMING AT A TIME WHEN WE ARE EXPECTING ANY MOMENT NOW POTENTIALLY A THIRD INDICTMENT OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND HE IS CRUSHING ALL OF HIS OPPONENTS IN THE PRIMARY AT THIS POINT.

HE IS, BY FAR, THE DOMINANT FRONTRUNNER.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS, AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT WHAT A GENERAL ELECTION, IF IT'S BETWEEN THESE MEN, LOOK LIKE?

>> THESE NUMBERS SHOULD NOT SURPRISE US.

WE HAVE LONG BEEN LIVING IN A 50-50 COUNTRY IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IT'S CLEAR IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS IN THE ELECTIONS IN 2018, 2020, 2022, THAT THE MEGA EXTREMISM OF DONALD TRUMP HAS CAPTURED THE HEARTS AND SOULS OF THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY AUDIENCE, BUT AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT THEY FORECLOSE OPPORTUNITIES THAT THEY HAVE TO WIDEN THEIR CONSTITUENCY IN GENERAL ELECTIONS, WHICH IS WHY THEY LOST IN CONSECUTIVE MIDTERMS AND LOST THE PRESIDENCY IN THE LAST GO AROUND AND I DAUGHTER SAY THEY ARE GIVING UP OPPORTUNITIES WITH INDEPENDENTS AND MODERATES IN 2024 AS WELL.

DONALD TRUMP MORE LIKELY THAN NOT, DESPITE ALL THE INDICTMENTS, WILL BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE BECAUSE HE DOMINATES THE CULTURE OF THAT PARTY.

AS A RESULT, THEY WILL LOSE IN ALL THE KEY PLACES THEY NEED TO IN ORDER TO GET THE 270 ELECTORAL VOTES FOR THE PRESIDENCY.

SO IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE CHAGRINNED BY THE STATE OF IT THAT PARTY.

YOU ARE NOT SURPRISED AT WHY WEATHER THEY STAND BUT YOU ARE ENCOURAGED BY THE LIKELIHOOD OF A VICTORY IN 2024 AS A RESULT OF ALL OF IT.

>> ALL RIGHT.

PATRICK GASPARD, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, AS WE NOTED, HUNDREDS OF WESTERNERS LEAVING NIGER AFTER COUP PLUNGED THE COUNTRY INTO A CRISIS.

DESTABILIZING ONE OF THE FEW REMAINING DEMOCRACIES IN THE SUB-SAHARAN.

REGIONAL TENSION IS RISING AS CONSORTIUM OF WEST AFRICAN STATES THREATEN TO USE FORCE IF THEY FAIL TO RE-ELECT THE PRESIDENT.

NIGER'S NEIGHBORS BURKINA FASO AND MALI ARE PUSHING BACK.

THEY SAY INTERVENTION WOULD MEAN WAR ON THEM.

KAMISSA CAMARA SERVED AS MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS IN MALI.

SHE WARNS IT COULD THWART TERRORISM IN THE REGION AT RICHLK.

KAMISSA CAMARA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

SO THIS COUP STARTED ON LAST WEEK, JULY 26th, OUSTED DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED MOHAMMED BAZOUM.

LET'S GIVE OUR VIEWERS A SENSE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY.

IT IS A HOME TO 26 MILLION PEOPLE, AND FOR YEARS HAS BEEN THE ONLY TRUE WESTERN ALLY IN A REGION WREAKED BY POVERTY, VIOLENCE AND JIHADIST INSURGENCY.

WHAT LED UP TO LAST WEEK'S COUP, AND SHOULD WE BE SURPRISED BY IT?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

YOU HAVE SAID IT.

NIGER IS A KEY COUNTRY FOR WESTERN INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS TO COMBAT A JIHADI INSURGENCY, A THREAT IN AN ENTIRE REGION, IN THE SAHEL REGION, AND NIGER IS -- OR HAS BEEN A VERY STABLE COUNTRY IN A VERY VOLATILE REGION.

NIGER HAS HAD TWO DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRESIDENTS IN RECENT YEARS.

PRESIDENT ISSOUFOU LED THE COUNTRY FOR TEN YEARS AND THEN HANDED POWER OVER IN A DEMOCRATIC ELECTION TO PRESIDENT BAZOUM ONLY TWO YEARS AGO.

THIS COUP DEFINITELY CAME AS A SURPRISE BECAUSE NIGER AGAIN WAS CONSIDERED A VERY STABLE COUNTRY.

CONTRARY TO THE SITUATION IN MALI AND BURKINA FASO, WHEN THE COUP WAS ACTUALLY TAKING PLACE AFTER POPULAR PROTESTS AND HEIGHTENED TENSIONS BETWEEN THE LEADERS AND THEIR MILITARIES, IN NIGER THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WITNESSED.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, IN ONE MORNING AN ARMY GENERAL TOOK UP ARMS AGAINST THE PRESIDENT AND LITERALLY KIDNAPPED AND DECIDED THAT HE WAS TAKING POWER, AND PUSHING THE PRESIDENT OUT.

>> WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THIS MILITARY, THE JUNTA LEADER, THE GENERAL TCHIANI?

TELL US MORE ABOUT HIM.

>> SO HE IS SOMEBODY WHO IS KNOWN IN THE MILITARY FORCES.

HE HAD BEEN PRESIDENTIAL GUARD FOR CLOSE TO TEN YEARS.

HE SERVED UNDER PRESIDENT ISSOUFOU, PRESIDENT BAZOUM'S PREDECESSOR, AND WAS CONSIDERED VERY LOYAL TO THE CURRENT PRESIDENT.

IT LOOKS LIKE PRESIDENT BAZOUM WANTED TO REMOVE HIM FROM THE POSITION AND PUTTING SOMEONE ELSE, AND THAT WE HEARD IS THAT GENERAL TCHIANI WAS VERY DISSATISFIED WITH PRESIDENT BAZOUM'S DECISION AND THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE REASON WHY HE WANTED TO CONDUCT THIS COUP.

>> LITTLE IS KNOWN WHO IS WIELDING POWER NOW IN THE COMPANY.

PRESIDENT BAZOUM CAN RECEIVE VISITORS.

THERE WAS A PHOTO POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA ON SUNDAY SHOWING HIM SMILING AND SITTING NEXT TO THE PRESIDENT OF CHAD, WHO IS ACTING AS A MEDIATOR THROUGHOUT THIS COUP.

HE CAN TAKE PHONE CALLS, REPORTEDLY, AND HAS SPOKEN TO WORLD LEADERS.

YOU DESCRIBE THIS COUP, HOWEVER, AS A SUCCESSFUL ONE AND BELIEVE THE CHANCES OF BAZOUM BEING REINSTATED ARE VERY LOW.

WHY?

>> THEY ARE, BECAUSE THE EXTENDED FORECAST, THE REGIONAL ECOWAS, MADE EFFORTS TO COUNTER COUPS IN WEST AFRICA THAT HAVE BEEN UNSUCCESSFUL, AS WE HAVE SEEN, IN THE REGION OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS, WE HAVE HAD FIVE SUCCESSFUL COUPS.

TWO IN MALI, TWO IN BURKINA FASO, ONE IN BEGIN ANY, AND THIS CAME AS A SURPRISE.

NOW THE EXTENDED FORECAST IS THE EXTENDED FORECAST IS PLAYING AND THECOWAS IS THE ECOWAS IS PLAYING AND THE ECOWAS -- REINSTATE PRESIDENT BAZOUM.

THE LAST EXAMPLE OF THAT WE HAVE SEEN WAS ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO WHEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE GAMBIA WANTED TO STAY IN POWER AFTER BEING DEFEATED IN ELECTION, BUT THE CONTEXT WAS VERY DIFFERENT AND THE STAKES WERE NOT AS HIGH.

SO IT'S REALLY HARD TO SEE HOW THE ECOWAS COULD BE SUCCESSFUL.

WHAT MIGHT END UP HAPPENING IS A COUNTRY WHERE NO ONE ACTUALLY RULES, WHERE PRESIDENT BAZOUM CANNOT BE REINSTATED AND WHERE THE JUNTA IS PREVENTED FROM RULING BECAUSE OF THE ECOWAS TENSIONS.

BECAUSE IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO ENVISION ECOWAS MIGHT BE SUCCESSFUL.

THE ECOWAS WAS SAYING THAT THEY WILL BE SUCCESSFUL AT -- THE LEADERS.

>> THE ECOWAS IS THE ECONOMIC COMMUNITY OF WEST AFRICAN STATES, TO FORCE THE REINSTATEMENT OF PRESIDENT BAZOUM.

AND YOU ARE SEEING THE MILITARY JUNTAS IN MALI AND BURKINA FASO THREATEN THE OPPOSITE IF THAT DOES HAPPEN.

HERE'S WHAT THEIR LEADER SAID IN SUPPORT OF THE CURRENT COUP.

>> Translator: ANY MILITARY INTERVENTION GENES NIGER WOULD AMOUNT TO DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST BURKINA FASO AND MALI.

THE TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENTS OF THE BURKINA FASO AND MALI INVITE THE LIVING FORCES TO BE READY AND MOBILIZED, TO LEND A HAPPENED TO THE PEOPLE OF NIGER IN THESE DARK HOURS OF PAN-AFRICANISM.

>> Translator: THE BROTHERLY PEOPLES OF MALI, BURKINA FASO, NIGER, GUINEA, AFIRE TO MORE RECOGNITION AND RESPECT FOR THEIR SOVEREIGNTY.

>> HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT THINGS WILL HE IS SCLAPT AND DESTABILIZE THE REGION FURTHER?

>> I AM NOT TOO CONCERNED THAT THINGS WILL ESCALATE.

I THINK THIS IS ALMOST A NORMAL REACTION BY THE JUNTA LEADERS OF MALI AND BURKINA FASO.

THEY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE THEIR OWN SKIN AT STAKE.

THEY KNOW IF THE ECOWAS IS ABLE TO INTERVENE IN NIGER AND UNSEAT THE JUNTA LEADER, THEN THEY MIGHT BE NEXT.

SO I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE ECOWAS, IT'S IN ECOWAS'S INTEREST TO DESTABILIZE THE REGION.

YOU I THEY WANT TO PUT AN END TO THIS TREND OF MILITARY COUPS IN THE REGION AND THEY WANT TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE ATMAN TANG STABILITY IN A REGION THAT ACTUALLY NEEDS A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT WHEN IT COMES TO DEFEATING THE JIHADI THREAT.

>> WHERE IS THAT SUPPORT GOING COULD COME FROM FOR THE ECOWAS?

YOU HAVE NOOERJ RECEIVING CLOSE TO $2 MILLION A YEAR IN DEVELOPMENTAL ASSISTANCE ACCORDING TO THE WORLD BANK, AND THERE ARE U.S. AND MILITARY -- AND FRINGE MILITARY BASES IN NIGER RIGHT NOW, BUT WITHOUT WESTERN SUPPORT, FINANCIALLY OR MILITARILY, CAN THE ECOWAS ACCOMPLISH THEIR GOAL HERE?

>> IT WILL BE DIFFICULT AND CHALLENGING.

I THINK THE ECOWAS' DEADLINE OF NEXT MONDAY TO UNSEAT THE JUNTA LEADER IS ONE THAT WE'RE ALL WAITING FOR.

AND MAYBE HOPING THAT IT WILL NOT COME TO THAT.

BUT IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR NIGER AS A COUNTRY, AS A STATE, TO SURVIVE WITHOUT THE INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT FOR INTERNATIONAL -- FOR SECURITY.

>> IS THIS AN OPENING FOR RUSSIA PERHAPS, BECAUSE THERE IS HISTORY HERE BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES AND THE REGION AS A WHOLE.

DO YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE THE KREMLIN CALLING FOR THE RELEASE OF PRESIDENT BAR ZOOM, AND YOU HAVE THE WAGNER LEADER YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN PRAISING THE COUP AND BURKINA FASO HAS MOVED CLOSER TO RUSSIA RECENTLY.

WE SAW ITS LEADER PRAISING RUSSIA IN THE MEETING IN ST. PETERSBURG BETWEEN AFRICAN NATIONS AND RUSSIA AT THAT SUMMIT.

SO WHAT, IF ANYTHING, COULD RUSSIA DO NOW TO CAPITALIZE ON THIS CRISIS?

>> IT'S VERY -- IT'S TOO SOON, I THINK, TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAGNER GROUP'S NEXT MOVE.

HISTORICALLY, RUSSIA HAS NEVER BEEN A CLOSE PARTNER TO NIGER, BUT LOOKING AT HOW THE ANTI-WESTERN SENTIMENT HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN BRINGING THE WAGNER GROUP IN MALI AND CLOSER TO BURKINA FASO, THERE IS DEFINITELY A TREND THERE.

ALSO, WAGNER HAS BEEN VERY CLOSE TO ISOLATED COUP LEADERS.

IF TCHIANI GENERAL AND HIS GROUP, HIS JUNTA, ARE ABLE TO STAY IN POWER IN NIGER AND REMAIN ISOLATED FROM THE ECOWAS AND FROM THEIR TRADITIONAL REGIONAL PARTNERS, THERE COULD BE A THREAT FOR THE WAGNER GROUP TO COME CLOSER TO NIGER, BUT IT'S REALLY TOO SOON IN THE POLITICAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE REGION AND THE COUNTRY TO ENVISAGE WAGNER COMING CLOSELY TO NIGER AND FORMING A PARTNERSHIP.

>> WELL WE SEE FRANCE AND ITALY EVACUATING CITIZENS IN THE MEANTIME.

THE UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN CALLED WHAT IS HAPPENING TROUBLING AND ONCE AGAIN REITERATED THAT PRESIDENT BAR ZOOM AS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO WATCH TO CLOSELY.

KAMISSA CAMARA THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, WE TURN NEXT TO THE EXTRAORDINARY WOMEN WHO SERVED IN UNIFORM DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

FROM THE D-DAY LANDINGS TO THE PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS TO WAR EFFORTS ARE OFTEN FORGOTTEN.

LENA ANDREWS DOCUMENTS THE CRITICAL ROLES THESE WOMEN SERVED AND SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE COUNTLESS WAYS THEY BROKE BARRIERS.

>> THANK YOU.

LENA ANDREWS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT IS AN ABSOLUTE PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> I READ YOUR BOOK "VALIANT WOMEN."

I MUST SAY I THOUGHT OF WOMEN IN WORLD WAR II AS THAT POSTER OF ROSIE THE RIVETER ON THE FRONT LINES WORKING, YOU KNOW, IN FACTORIES AND THINGS.

I REALIZE THEY SERVED IN ALL THE BRANCHES OF THE MILITARY, MUCH MORE EXTENSIVELY.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT AND WHY WE HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH ABOUT THAT BEFORE.

>> WELL, IT'S A GREAT POINT, AND IT'S A PROBLEM AND AN UNDERSTANDING THAT I THINK MANY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES SHARE.

MYSELF INCLUDED BEFORE I STARTED WORKING ON THIS PROJECT, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT OF MYSELF AS A WORLD WAR II EXPERT, I READ PRETTY MUCH EVERY BOOK UNDER THE SUN, AND YET IT WASN'T UNTIL WELL INTO MY RESEARCH AND WRITING ABOUT WORLD WAR II THAT I DISCOVERED THIS GROUP OF INCREDIBLE WOMEN.

OF COURSE, I KNEW ABOUT ROSIE THE RIVETER.

SOME OF US KNOW ABOUT THE SPIES AND CODE BREAKERS WHO SERVED BEHIND ENEMY LINES.

IT WASN'T UNTIL I STUMBLED ON WOMEN IN UNIFORM I GOT A SENSE OF THE SCALE AND SCOPE OF WOMEN'S CONTRIBUTIONS.

SO AS SOME READERS MAY KNOW, OVER 350,000 AMERICAN WOMEN SERVED IN UNIFORM IN WORLD WAR II.

TO GIVE YOU A SENSE OF SCALE, THAT'S THE SIZE OF THE CURRENT ACTIVE DUTY NAVY.

SO A BIG GROUP.

MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE SIZE WAS THEIR CONTRIBUTION.

THEY WERE IN CRITICAL SUPPORT ROLES THAT ARE OFTEN UNDERAPPRECIATED IN TO OUR BROADER UNDERSTANDING OF WAR.

THINGS LIKE LAYING CABLES ON THE FRONT LINES OR FIXING AND MAINTAINING PLANES SO THAT THEY COULD BE SENT BACK TO THE PACIFIC OR TRAINING MEN HOW TO USE GUNS.

ALL THESE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TACHKS THAT ARE OFTEN SORT OF WIPED FROM OUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW WARS ARE FOUGHT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT SUPPORT ROLES.

WERE ANY OF THEM REALLY ON THE FRONT LINES THOUGH ON COMBAT ROLES?

>> SO TECHNICALLY, WOMEN WERE PROHIBITED FROM SERVING IN COMBAT AS THEY WERE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS AFTER WORLD WAR II.

IT'S A BLURRY THING.

IF YOU ASK A MEMBER.

ARMY NURSE CORPS IF SHE WAGS SERVING ON THE FRONT LINES, SHE MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT RESPONSE.

MANY WOMEN, TLIKLY THE NURSES, WERE A FEW MILES BEHIND THE FRONT AND ENDED UP BEING CAPTURED BEHIND ENEMY LINES OR SHOT AT ON THEIR WAY INTO AIR FIELDS IN THE PACIFIC OR EUROPE.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE SOME VERY, VERY HARROWING STORIES.

IN FACT, I THINK SOMETHING LIKE 38 WOMEN AIR FORCE SERVICE PILOTS DIED DURING THE WAR, YOU KNOW, 16 AMERICAN NURSES WERE KILLED BY ENEMY FIRE.

SO THEY WERE CERTAINLY, IF NOT ON THE FRONT, CLOSE ENOUGH TO BE IN REAL DANGER.

>> YOU SAY THAT WORLD WAR II WAS UNPRECEDENTED NOT JUST IN SCALE, BUT THE WAY IT WAS FOUGHT.

HOW DID THAT -- EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT AND HOW THAT OPENED THE WAY FOR A ROLE OF WOMEN.

>> YEAH, SO I THINK WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE SORT OF MISUNDERSTAND ABOUT WORLD WAR II IS THAT IT WASN'T JUST HUGE.

IT WAS REALLY INNOVATIVE.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF NEW DOCTRINE THAT WE HAVEN'T NECESSARILY DEPLOYED BEFORE.

AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULTS OR JOINED COMBINED ARMS, SORT OF MILITARY TERMS, BUT EFFECTIVELY REALLY INNOVATIVE AND NEW TYPES OF DOCTRINE.

NOW, THE CHALLENGE OF THOSE IS NOT JUST PUTTING THEM INTO PRACTICE ON THE FRONT LINES, BUT ALSO HAVING THE MANPOWER AND THE SUPPORT INFRASTRUCTURE TO ENSURE THAT THEY COULD BE EFFECTIVELY DEPLOYED ON THE FRONT LINES, AND THAT'S WHERE WOMEN COME N FOR INSTANCE, OFF YAKS, WHICH HADN'T BEEN DEPLOYED ON A MAJOR SCALE UNTIL WORLD WAR II REQUIRES LOTS AND LOTS OF MAINTENANCE AND PILOTS AND TRAINERS AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS, AND PUTS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE MANPOWER INFRASTRUCTURE.

SO THAT'S WHERE WE SEE A LOT OF THE WOMEN SUPPORTING A LOT OF THESE UNOVATIVE DOCK STRAINS.

>> LET'S GET SPECIFIC.

YOU BEGIN THE BOOK WITH ANNE BUMGARNER.

INTERESTING PERSON, INTERESTING BACKGROUND.

TELL ME THE STORY AND WHY YOU PICKED HER TO BEGIN WITH.

>> SO GLAD YOU MENTIONED HER.

SHE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES.

I STARTED THE BOOK WITH HER.

SO SHE, LIKE MANY WOMEN, MANY PEOPLE, I SHOULD SAY, GRADUATED FROM SMITH COLLEGE IN 1939.

TOTALLY ADRIFT.

SHE HAD NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH HER LIFE.

SHE ENDS UP AT A MEDICAL RESEARCH LABORATORY, BORED AT THE END OF THE A DAY, ON THE ROOF OF THE BUILDING LOOKS UP AT THE SKY AND SEES A PLANE CUTTING THROUGH THE CLOUDS AND DECIDED I'M GOING TO BECOME A PILOT.

WE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL.

SHE IS AN INCREDIBLE PILOT.

SHE JOINS THE WOMEN'S AIR FORCE SERVICE PILOTS, W.A.S.P.s, AND IS INVITED TO BECOME A TEST PILOT FOR THE U.S. ARMY AIR FORCES AT THE TIME.

SHE GOES ON TO BE THE FIRST WOMAN TO FLY A JET PLANE IN THE UNITED STATES AND TEST THE B-49.

FOR THOSE OF WITH YOU WHO JUST SAW "OPPENHEIMER," IT DROPS THE BOMB ON HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI.

ONE OF MANY STORIES IN THE BOOK AND ONE OF THOSE 350,000 AMERICAN STORIES THAT WE'VE SORT OF LEFT TO HISTORY.

>> ONE OF THE WAYS THAT WORLD WAR II WAS WON WAS NOT JUST BY PHYSICAL POWER, BUT BY COMPUTATIONAL POWER.

TELL ME THE ROLE OF WOMEN WHO HAD BECOME MATHEMATICIANS AT A VERY HIGH RATE IN THE 1930s AND HOW IMPORTANT THEY WERE IN TERMS OF WINNING THE WAR THROUGH COMPUTATIONAL POWER.

>> IT'S A FANTASTIC STORY.

I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN WERE FOUND IN INDONESIA TECHNICAL TRADES.

SO GRACE HOPPER WAS AN INCREDIBLY BRILLIANT MATHEMATICIAN, HAS A Ph.D. AND IS ON THE FRONT LINES OF LITERALLY THE INCREDIBLE COMPUTING POWER THAT BECOMES THE FOUNDATION FOR WHAT WE ARE TALKING ON TODAY.

OTHER WOMEN HAD SKILLS IN THINGS LIKE OCEANOGRAPHY AND SCIENCES LIKE ZOOLOGY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN DRAWN TO BECAUSE THEY WERE SORT OF QUIRKY AND, YOU KNOW, OUT OF THE NORM FOR WOMEN.

BUT YOU FIND THEM, THE NAVY FINDS THEM IN MANY CASES AND BRINGS THEM INTO THE FOLD BECAUSE IT TURNS OUT WHEN YOU HAVE GOT 16 MILLION PERSONNEL, THE COMPUTATIONAL AND ACCOUNTING POWER THAT YOU NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE AND ALL THAT EQUIPMENT IS EXTRAORDINARY.

SO WOMEN LIKE GRACE HOPPER, MARY SEARS WERE AT THE FOREFRONT OF A LOT OF THE TECHNICAL TRADES THAT BECOME THE FOUNDATION FOR WHAT WINNING WORLD WAR II.

>> WHAT DISCRIMINATION DID THESE WOMEN FACE?

>> SO UNFORTUNATELY MISTREATMENT FOR THESE WOMEN WAS QUITE COMMON.

AND IT, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR LISTENERS AND AUDIENCES TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE 1940s WERE A DIFFERENT TIME.

FOR MANY WOMEN, YOU KNOW, IT COULD RUN THE GAMBIT OF SORT OF BASIC SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND WORKPLACE DISCRIMINATION, THINGS LIKE NOT GETTING A PROMOTION BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T DATE THEIR SENIOR OFFICER UP TO AND INCLUDING VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT, WHICH I TRY TO DEAL HONESTLY WITH IN THE BOOK BECAUSE IT'S A PART OF THE EXPERIENCE.

I SHOULD ADD THIS WAS WORSE FOR WOMEN OF COLOR WHO OFTEN FACED NOT JUST SEXISM BUT RACISM AND OTHER FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION.

BUT THE LAST THING I'LL SAY AND I REALLY TRY TO CONVEY THIS, IS WHILE THIS WAS A PART OF THE EXPERIENCE FOR A LOT OF WOMEN, IT WASN'T THE ENTIRETY OF THEIR EXPERIENCE AND THEY LET WITH A LOT OF INJUSTICES WITH GREAT GRACE AND INTEGRITY AND POISE, WHICH QUITE FRANKLY AS WOMAN IN NATIONAL SECURITY WHICH FOUND INSPIRING.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT WOMEN IN COLOR IN PARTICULAR FACED DISCRIMINATION.

THERE IS A WONDERFUL STORY, I THINK ABOUT A CENTRAL POSTAL DIRECTORY BRIGADE, A BLACK WOMEN'S GROUP.

TELL ME THAT STORY.

>> THIS ONE OF MY FAVORITE STORIES AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT THEY ARE FINALLY GETTING SOME OF THEIR DESERVED CREDIT.

THE SIX 888 CENTRAL POSTAL DIRECTLY BATTALION LED BY CHARITY ADAMS.

A FANTASTIC MEMOIR.

THEY WERE IN ADDITION TO GETTING THE CONGRESSIONAL GOLD MEDAL, THEY ARE GOING TO BE THE TOPIC OF A NETFLIX FEATURE FILM COMING UP DIRECTED BY TYLER PERRY.

IF THAT ISN'T ENOUGH OF AN ENDORSEMENT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE AUDIENCE MEANS.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLE.

THEY ARE THE LARGEST UNIT OF BLACK ARMY WOMEN TO SERVE OVERSEAS.

THEY ARE BEHIND THE FRONT LINES IN EUROPE IN FRANCE AND THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY -- TO MOST LISTENERS AND AUDIENCES MAY NOT SOUND LIKE A BIG DEAL, BUT MAIL IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT LIFELINE FOR THE FRONT LINE FORCES AND THEY ARE DEALING WITH A BAG LOG OF VERMIN HIN INFESTED MAIL AND THEY ARE IN THIS GROSS WAREHOUSE AND THEY ARE DOING EXTRAORDINARY WORK GETTING IT THROUGH TO THE MEN AT THE FRONT LINES WHO NEED TO KEEP FEET FIGHTING.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND LOOK INTO THEIR STORY.

IT'S A BIG PART OF THE BOOK AND I'M SO HONORED TO BE BRINGING THIS TO A WIDER AUDIENCE.

>> WHEN WE READ THIS BOOK WE ARE REMAINED THAT WOMEN WERE NOT IN COMBAT ROLES, NOT FULLY INTEGRATED INTO THE MILITARY, AND LIKEWISE, IT'S TRUE OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SOMEWHAT SEGREGATED UP TO TRUMAN DOES THE INTEGRATION OF THE MILITARY.

TO WHAT EXTENT ARE THERE PARALLELS BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENED DURING WORLD WAR II TO BRING WOMEN MORE INTO THE MILITARY AND TO BRING BLACKS MORE INTO THE MILITARY?

>> THERE ARE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PARALLELS.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE SKEPTICISM THAT WOMEN FACED WAS ALSO CERTAINLY BEING APPLIED PLIED TO MEN OF DOLLAR AS WELL.

AND AGAIN AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WOMEN OF COLOR WERE FACING IT FROM ALL DIRECTIONS.

SO THERE IS A REAL SYNERGY BETWEEN THESE TWO PARALLEL STORIES AND THE EXPERIENCES THEY WERE HAVING.

THE FINAL THING I'LL ADD IS IN BOTH CASES, THEY SERVED BOTH OF THESE GROUPS SERVED WITH EXTRAORDINARY HONOR AND VALOR AND IT WAS THAT SERVICE THAT ULTIMATELY CHANGED A LOT OF THE MINDS OF THE SENIOR COMMANDERS WHO CAME OUT OF THE WAR, AS YOU SAID, ARE TO INTEGRATE WOMEN AND BLACK MEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR INTO THE MILITARY FORCES.

>> WE RECENTLY DID A SHOW ON -- A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE NEGRO LEAGUES, AND IT TALKED ABOUT HOW THE EXPERIENCE OF WORLD WAR II, AND AFRICAN AMERICANS IN WORLD WAR II, MADE IT ALMOST INEVITABLE THAT THE LATE 1940s THEY'D HAVE TO BE AN INTEGRATION OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL.

YOU LIKEWISE TALK ABOUT WHAT I THINK YOU CALL A RIPPLE EFFECT, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS TO WOMEN AFTER THEY HAVE SERVED IN THE WAR AND HOW THAT LEADS INTO THEIR RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

>> EXACTLY.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE -- WHEN WE THINK OF THE CONTEMPORARY MOVEMENT IN THE 20th CENTURY WE THINK OF SIF RIDGISTS AND THEN JOURNAL TO THE WOMEN'S LIBERATION MOVEMENT.

'60s AND '70s.

WE FOREGREAT THIS GAP IN BETWEEN THE WOMEN OF THE GREATEST GENERATION AND ESPECIALLY THE WOMEN OF WORLD WAR II.

AND SOMETHING I, YOU KNOW, REALLY TRY TO TEASE OUT IN THE BOOK IS THAT A LOT OF THE FIRST BATTLES, ESPECIALLY RELATED TO WORKPLACE DISCRIMINATION, WERE BATTLES THAT WOMEN WERE FIGHTING IN UNIFORM BECAUSE WHILE THE MILITARY WAS A WAR-FIGHTING MACHINE, IT WAS ALSO AN EMPLOYER.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT TO HAVE SOME POWER OVER THEIR CAREER, TO SHOW THE VALUE THAT THEIR SKILLS BRING TO THE TABLE, BEING ABLE TO WEAR PANTS IN THE WORKPLACE, THESE ARE THE FIRST BATTLES THAT THE WOMEN OF WORLD WAR II ARE FIGHTING AND THEY BECOME THE FOUNDATION FOR THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT OF THE '60s AND '70s.

UNFORTUNATELY, AN OFTEN FORGOTTEN FOUNDATION, BUT IT'S THERE.

I CERTAINLY TRY TO BRING IT OUT IN THE -- FOR READERS IN THE BOOK.

>> I CAN STILL REMEMBER THE DEBATE OVER WOMEN IN COMBAT.

THAT WAS MANY YEARS AFTER THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

TELL ME HOW WHAT HAPPENED IN WORLD WAR II AFFECTED THAT DEBATE AND WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG TO ALLOW WOMEN IN COMBAT?

>> YOU KNOW, THESE ISSUES ARE REALLY COMPLEX AND THEY HAVE GOT A LOT OF HISTORY BEHIND THEM, WHICH IS DIFFICULT, BUT IT'S ALSO HELPFUL BECAUSE IT MEANS THEY HAVE GOT A LOT OF HISTORY BEHIND THEM.

WE CAN LEARN A LOT FROM HOW WE HAVE ADDRESSED THESE PROBLEMS IN THE PAST.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT WOMEN INTEGRATING INTO THE LARGER ARMED FORCES, AND OF COURSE, COMBAT INTEGRATION, I'M ACTUALLY DRAWN TO WORLD WAR II AND TO THE PAST AND I THINK ABOUT COMMANDERS LIKE DWIGHT EISENHOWER OR GEORGE MARSHALL OR HAPP ARNOLD, EXTREME SKEPTICS.

BECAUSE OF THE SERVICE THAT THEY SAW, THE EXPERIENCES THAT THEY HAD WITH WOMEN, THEY'RE VENTIONLY CHANGE THEIR MIND AND IT WAS DWIGHT EISENHOWER TO LED THE CHARGE FOR WOMEN TO BE MORE FULLY AND PERMANENTLY INTEGRATE NEIGHBORHOOD THE ARMED FORCES.

PART IS JUST EXPOSURE, UNDERSTANDING, AND UNFORTUNATELY WHEN YOU PROHIBIT PEOPLE FROM TRYING, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY GET THAT EXPOSURE.

I WOULD JUST SAY DON'T TAKE IT FROM ME.

TAKE IT FROM MARSHALL OR EISENHOWER THAT A MORE INCLUSIVE MILITARY IS A BETTER MILITARY.

>> WE HAVEAROO CROUT.

PROBLEM IN THE MILITARY.

THERE IS A SHORTFALL OF ABOUT 20,000 OR SO.

TO WHAT EXTENT CAN THAT BE HELPED BY A FULLER UNDERSTANDING OF THE ROLE WOMEN PLAY IN THE MILITARY?

>> I AM SO GLAD YOU ASKED.

THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE TOPICS.

I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE ARE THINKING TOO MUCH ABOUT THE RECRUIT.

CRISIS.

WE ARE IN ONE OF THE WORST RECRUITMENT ENVIRONMENTS IN DECK ASDS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT SHOULD WORRY EVERYONE.

DESPITE THE HYPE ABOUT A.I., PEOPLE STILL FIGHT WARS.

IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH, WE WILL BE IN REAL TROUBLE.

WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE IN WORLD WAR II WHERE THERE WAS A HUGE SCALE THAT WE WERE TRYING TO GET TO, I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, 16 MILLION PERSONNEL IN UNIFORM, THAT'S QUITE A BIT OF -- QUITE A BIT OF THE POPULATION, NOBODY COULD SIT OUT.

AND THAT BECAME PRETTY CLEAR TO COMMANDERS LIKE MARSHALL EARLY ON AND TO THE REST OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, QUITE FRANKLY, A LITTLE BIT TOO LATE INTO THE WAR.

IT WAS IN '42 AND '43 WE CAME TO THAT UNDERSTANDING.

WE WOULD BE WISE TO LEARN FROM WORLD WAR II THE TIME TO MAKE CHANGES TO PERSONNEL AND RECRUITMENT IS EARLY AND OFTEN AND, YOU KNOW, WELL BEFORE ANY SORT OF COMBAT SCENARIO BEGINS.

THAT'S WHAT WE DIDN'T DO IN WORLD WAR II AND SHOULD DO TODAY.

>> SENATOR TOMMY TUBERVILLE OF ALABAMA HAS HELD UP ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL PROMOTIONS IN THE SENATE BECAUSE OF AN OBJECTION TO THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY ALLOWS WOMEN TO CROSS STATE LINES, GET ABORTIONS, HELPS FACILITATE THAT.

IF HE SUCCEEDS, HOW HARD WILL THAT BE TO RECRUIT WOMEN INTO THE MILITARY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WOMEN ARE WATCHING CLOSELY.

I THINK WOMEN IN UNIFORM AND WOMEN MORE BROADLY.

AGAIN, IT'S A -- THESE ARE VERY COMPLEX ISSUES.

IT'S A BIT UNPRECEDENTED TO HAVE THIS SORT OF MEDDLING IN MARSHALL SECURITY AND DEFENSE ISSUES, PARTICULARLY IN THE MIDDLE OF -- AS WE TALKED ABOUT, RECRUITING CRISIS.

WE FORGET THAT WOMEN INNON FORM, IN WORLD WAR II AND NOW, ARE OFTEN THE CANARIES IN THE COAL MINE ON WOMEN'S ISSUES.

AGAIN, IT WOULD BE EERIE IF YOU LOOK BACK FOR MANY PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THE CONVERSATIONS THAT WE WERE HAVING ABOUT ABORTION AND PREGNANCY IN WORLD WAR II, WHICH WERE VERY MUCH A PORT OF THE CONVERSATION, THEY SOUND FAMILIAR TO WHAT BETTER TALKING ABOUT TODAY.

AND ULTIMATELY THEY BECOME A DISTRACTION TO THE REAL ISSUE, WHICH IS FIGHTING AND WINNING THE WAR.

SO I WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO UNDERSTAND THAT WOMEN IN UNIFORM ARE OFTEN ON FRONT LINES NOT JUST OF THE BATTLE, BUT OF THE BATTLE AGAINST DISCRIMINATION AND WORKPLACE HARASSMENT AND THINGS OF THOSE NATURE.

SO WE SHOULD BE ALL WATCHING CLOSELY TO SEE HOW THEY REACT.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST NOMINATED AT MIRL LISA FRANCHETTI TO BE THE CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS.

THE FIRST TIME A WOMAN WOULD BE A MEMBER OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

LEAD ONE OF THE SERVICES.

HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT HISTORICALLY AND HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT SHE GET CONFIRMED AND NOT HELD UP BY SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS WE HAVE IN THE SENATE?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, CAN I JUST SAY HOW EXCITED AND, YOU KNOW, ENERGIZED I AM THAT ADMIRAL FRANCHETTI HAS BEEN NOMINATED.

SHE IS NOT JUST A WOMAN, BUT INCREDIBLE WAR FIGHTER, SAILOR.

HE SHOULD IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD HOPE WOULD BE THE PERSON IN CHARGE OF OUR, YOU KNOW, OF OUR NAVY.

SO SHE DESERVES THIS ROLE AND I HOPE SHE GETS T I DO THINK THAT THE HOLDING UP OF THESE PROMOTIONS IS -- THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE HAS SAID IS REALLY TROUBLESOME AND VERY ULTIMATELY COULD BE VERY PROBLEMATIC, YOU KNOW, OVER THE LONG TERM.

I DON'T KNOW IF THERE WILL BE ANY RESOLUTION TO THAT.

BUT IT'S CERTAINLY BITTERSWEET MOMENT TO HAVE THIS INCREDIBLE MOMENT FOR WOMEN'S PROGRESS IN THE MILITARY BE A BIT OVERSHADOWED BY SOME OF THE MORE POLITICAL ISSUES GOING ON IN THE SMITH TODAY.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN A WOMAN IN NATIONAL SECURITY.

HOW DID THAT INFORM THIS WEEK?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, UNFORTUNATELY, AS A MEMBER OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY I CAN'T TALK TOO MUCH ABOUT MY WORK.

BUT I CAN SAY THAT I STAND ON THE SHOULDERS OF EXACTLY THESE GIANTS.

THESE ARE THE WOMEN WHO KICKED OPEN THE DOORS FOR WOMEN LIKE ME TO STUDY MILITARY ANALYSIS AND SUCCEED IN THE NATIONAL DEFENSE TRADES AND HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THEIR INCREDIBLE WORK AND THEIR INCREDIBLE SACRIFICES I WOULDN'T BE HERE TODAY.

SO PART OF THIS IS MY TINY SLIVER OF SAYING, YOU KNOW, THANK YOU.

I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU DO AND I KNOW YOUR STORY BECAUSE IT'S ALSO MY STORY.

>> LENA ANDREWS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

I'M DELIGHTED I COULD BE HERE.

>>> AND FINALLY, AN HISTORIC SETTLEMENT.

IN 1951, YOUNG MOTHER HENRIETTA LACKS WAS RECEIVING TREATMENT FOR CERVICAL CANCER WHEN THE DOCTOR TOOK HER CELLS WITHOUT PERMISSION.

WHILE MOST CELLS DIE SHORTLY AFTER BEING REMOVED FROM THE HUMAN BODY, THE HeLa CELLS, AS THEY ARE NOW KNOWN, THRIVED AND BECAME THE FIRST TO REPRODUCE OUTSIDE THE BODY.

THEY HAVE SERVED AS A CORNERSTONE OF MODERN MEDICINE USED TO DEVELOP POLIO AND COVID VACCINES FOR AIDS RESEARCH AND WERE EVEN SENT TO SPACE TO TEST THE IMPACT OF ZERO GRAVITY ON HUMAN CELLS.

HeLa CELLS HAVE BEEN MENTIONED IN MORE THAN 110,000 SCIENTIFIC PUBLICATIONS.

WELL, NOW HENRIETTA LACKS LIVING RELATIVES HAVE SETTLED WITH THE BIOTECH COMPANY THEY CLAIM HAS CONTINUED TO PROFIT FROM HER CELLS.

THE FAMILY HAVE NEVER BEFORE BEEN COMPENSATED.

SOME 70 YEARS LATER, FINALLY SOME JUSTICE FOR HER FAMILY.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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