>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> HEY, THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US ON THIS RATHER SULTRY, HOT THURSDAY.

WE HAVE A TERRIFIC GUEST COMING OUR WAY FOR NEXT UP.

THE CONDUCTOR LAUREATE OF THE ST. LOUIS SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA, LEONARD SLATKIN WILL BE OUR GUEST AND RAY AND I WILL BE THROWING QUESTIONS TO NICE STRO SLATKIN, LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT.

AND WE ALSO HAVE AN ALL-STAR FAMILIAR TO TAKE ON THE ISSUES OF THE DAY FOR OUR REGION.

STARTING WITH SARAH FENSKE WHO'S THE HOST OF ST. LOUIS ON THE AIR ON ST. LOUIS NPR, KWMU.

HELLO, SARAH.

>> HI, CHARLIE.

>> AND WE WELCOME FOR HIS DEBUT APPEARANCE ON DONNYBROOK, RYAN WRECKER.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS N RAY HARTMANN FROM RAWSTORY BY COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES AND, OF COURSE, THE BIG 550, KTRS.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND MR. ALVIN REID, THE NEWS EDITOR FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN WHO ROUNDS OUT OUR PANEL AND, ALVIN, I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY THE CHEERIEST WE'RE GOING TO BE ALL HALF HOUR.

EVERYONE IS SO PLEASANT RIGHT NOW.

YOU DID A GREAT JOB LAST WEEK, ALVIN.

>> I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THAT WAS GOING.

RYAN, ARE YOU A TRIHOTE, WHEN YOU HAVE THREE PEOPLE ON -- >> KIND OF.

IT'S HARD TO GET A WORD IN, BUT I THINK IT PREPARED ME FOR THIS VERY MOMENT.

>> YOU THINK IT'S TOUGH TO GET A WORD IN ON THAT PROGRAM, WAIT UNTIL YOU SPEND THE NEXT 26 MINUTES WITH US.

OKAY, SARAH FENSKE, CENSUS NUMBERS HAVE COME OUT AFTER DATA WAS COLLECTED FOR THE 2020 CENSUS.

IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED THAT OUR REGION GREW ONE PERCENT WHILE THE NATION GREW 9%.

THERE WERE SOME CRAZY NUMBERS HERE.

ST. LOUIS CITY'S POPULATION IS DOWN 5.5%.

IT IS STILL OVER 300,000 AT 301,000.

FRANKLIN COUNTY UP 3%, JEFFERSON COUNTY UP 4%, ST. CHARLES UP 12%, LINCOLN COUNTY UP 13.3%, WARREN COUNTY UP 9%S IN IN ILLINOIS, ST. CLAIR AND MADISON COUNTY BOTH DOWN 4 AND ONE PERCENT RESPECTIVELY.

WHAT WAS RATHER UNUSUAL IS THAT CENSUS TAKERS CONCLUDED IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, WE LOST ONE OUT OF FIVE KIDS.

THAT IS, INDIVIDUALS UNDER 18.

THAT NUMBER WENT DOWN 20%.

DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

>> I ACTUALLY DO BELIEVE IT.

I THINK THIS REFLECTS LONGSTANDING TRENDS THAT THE ST. LOUIS PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE TALKED ABOUT AND OTHER DEMOGRAPHERS HAVE NOTICED, WHICH IS THAT LOWER INCOME FAMILIES ARE LEAVING THE CITY AND THEY'RE MOVING FOR THE MOST PART TO PLACES LIKE NORTH COUNTY, BUT WHAT YOU SEE HAPPENING IS THERE'S TWO-FAMILY HOMES THAT WERE RELATIVELY AFFORDABLE.

THEY'RE BEING CONVERTED AND WHO'S MOVING IN ARE COUPLES OUT CHILDREN, COUPLES WITH A MAXIMUM OF ONE OR TWO CHILDREN, SO THE POPULATION OF SCHOOL-AGED CHILDREN IN THE CITY HAS BEEN IN DECLINE FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW.

WHILE THIS SEEMS LIKE A BIG JUMP, I ACTUALLY BELIEVE BASED ON WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN SOME OF THESE, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, HOT NEIGHBORHOODS, THAT THIS WINNOWING OUT OF LOWER INCOME FAMILIES, YOU COULD SEE A SHARP ACCELERATION IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS.

>> I THINK IT'S TOO HIGH.

I BELIEVE IT, A FACTOR OF SCHOOLS AND OTHER THINGS, BUT A LOT OF DISCUSSION IS ABOUT UNDERDISCOUNT WHEN THE CENSUS COMES OUT, BUT WITH EVERY UNDERCOUNT, TECHNICALLY DOESN'T THERE HAVE TO BE AN OVERCOUNT?

I THINK IT WILL PLAY OUT THAT WAY.

NOW, IS IT LIKE 2% INSTEAD OF 20%?

I DON'T THINK THAT EITHER.

BUT IF IT WAS CLOSER TO -- PUT IT THIS WAY.

IF IT WAS 10%, I WOULD THINK THAT'S ABOUT RIGHT.

IF IT'S 15%, I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED.

I THINK 20% IS TOO HIGH.

>> WELL, I CAN'T QUIBBLE ABOUT THE NUMBERS BECAUSE AS A CITY RESIDENT, I AM DESPERATE TO STAY ABOVE 300,000 RESIDENTS, SO I WANT TO TAKE THESE NUMBERS TO THE BANK HERE.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SPECIFICS, BUT I DO THINK AS FAR AS THE TRENDS GO, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ST. LOUIS.

LIKE WE'RE LOSING LESS AFFLUENT POPULATION AND YOU'RE SEEING THE CITY DEMOGRAPHICS CHANGE.

I THINK WE'LL SEE THERE JUST ACCELERATE IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S A GOOD THING.

>> WELL, THE 20% DROP FOR KIDS SEEMS -- THAT DOES SEEM RATHER BIG.

ONE OUT OF FIVE LEAVING.

YOU KNOW, THEY OFTEN SAY IN STATISTICS IF THE NUMBERS SEEM TOO BIG, THEN, YOU KNOW, IT HAS TO BE QUESTIONED.

BUT THERE'S NO DOUBT, YOU'RE RIGHT, NOT ONLY IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS HAVE ALSO SEEING HUGE DROPS IN THEIR POPULATION.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> CHARLIE, I THINK IT'S A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER, TO SARAH'S POINT, AND A SURPRISING ONE TO ME.

I HAVE SEEN THE -- THE NUMBERS I HAVE SEEN THAT WERE JUST KIND OF PROJECTIONS OF WHAT THE CITY POPULATION WOULD BE BY NOW WERE LIKE 293.

I THOUGHT FOR SURE -- I THOUGHT IT WAS ACTUALLY GOOD NEWS FOR THE CITY AND A SIGNIFICANT THING THAT IT STAYED OVER 300.

I KNOW IT'S PSYCHOLOGICAL, BUT IT'S LESS OF A DECLINE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE OVERALL REGION, THE ONE PERCENT GROWTH IS PRETTY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT MOST PROJECTIONS OUT THERE ARE.

IT'S LIKE IT AIN'T GREAT, IT COULD BE WORSE, BUT AS A REGION, IT'S -- ST. LOUIS HAS BEEN PRETTY STABLE, BUT NOT GROWING.

BUT I -- YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE WHERE DIFFERENT WAYS TO PARSE THE ISSUE OF THE KIDS AND OBVIOUSLY IT'S GOT TO BE A SIGNIFICANT CONCERN, BUT I THOUGHT ON BALANCE, IT WAS ACTUALLY PRETTY GOOD NEWS.

>> WELL, I THINK OVERALL IF YOU'RE GROWING AT ONE PERCENT AS A REGION, YOU'RE IN TROUBLE FOR FEDERAL DOLLARS, FOR CONGRESSMEN, EVEN FOR GETTING AIRLINES FOR SERVICE TO YOUR AIRPORT.

IF THE REST THE COUNTRY IS GROWING AT 9%, THAT IS.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

>> RYAN, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL, WHICH THIS WEEK IN ITS WISDOM VOTED, WE THINK 5-2, ALTHOUGH IT WASN'T A ROLL CALL VOTE, IT WAS A VOICE VOTE, BUT PRETTY MUCH SEEM AS IF TWO MEMBERS VOTED FOR A MASK MANDATE.

THEY WOULD BE LISA CLANCY AND KELLI DUNAWAY, AND THE OTHER FIVE VOTED AGAINST HAVING A MANDATE.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS SURPRISING, ESPECIALLY SINCE SCHWANN DA WEB SAID IN HER EARLY PRESS RELEASE THAT SHE WAS FOR A MASK MANDATE, BUT DIDN'T LIKE THE PROCEDURE THAT HAD BEEN USED EARLIER TO CARRY ONE OUT.

OVERALL, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE VOTE OF THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL, RYAN?

>> I THINK THIS SHOWS THERE COULD BE TWO THINGS GOING ON.

THERE COULD BE A TRUST ISSUE AND A RESPECT ISSUE.

YOU LOOK AT THE TRUST ISSUE AND SOME OF THE ADVICE WE'VE BEEN RECEIVING AND GOING BACK TO THE STATEMENT OF DR. KHAN IN THE PAST, THERE COULD BE PEOPLE BURNT OUT AND THINKING TO THEMSELVES, WHAT DO I TRUST IN A MOMENT LIKE THIS?

CERTAINLY WHEN YOU HAVE A PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD WHERE THEY OPEN IT UP TO TWO HOURS AND THERE'S STILL A CROWD WAITING OUTDOORS READY TO SPEAK ABOUT THIS AND A WIDE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ARE AGAINST A MASK MANDATE, THE PEOPLE NEED TO BE LISTENED TO IN A MOMENT LIKE THIS.

I THINK THE LACK OF RESPECT COMES IN WHEN YOU'RE A DR. SAM PAGE THAT WON'T RELY ON THE SYSTEM AND SAY I'M GOING TO DO IT DID THE WAY I WANT TO REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE COUNCIL WANTS.

I'M GOING TO TRY TO MOVE FORWARD AND SEE HOW THE COURTS HANDLE IT.

WHEN KROUF THAT KIND OF LACK OF TRUST AND LACK OF RESPECT GOING BACK AND FORTH, IT'S A BAD COMBINATION.

THERE'S SO MANY ISSUES ON THE TABLE, IT'S HARD TO LOOK AT THAT AND SAY -- >> I'LL BE SPECIFIC WITH THE TWO COUNCILWOMAN WHO VOTED WITH THE FIVE.

THE DISTRICTS THEY REPRESENT ARE PREDOMINANTLY AFRICAN AMERICAN WHO ARE BEING HIT BY THIS -- YOU KNOW, THE PANDEMIC MUCH HARDER THAN MOST OF THE REGION IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY.

SO WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHO YOU'RE BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, THE POLITICS OF IT, THE POLITICS ARE THAT THEIR SEATS ARE SAFE, OKAY?

THEY COULD -- AND I'M NOT SAYING IN MY ESTIMATION, DO THE RIGHT THING, ALTHOUGH I THINK THAT -- LOOK, I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THE MASK MANDATES IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAT THAT'S WHO YOU REPRESENT AND WHO CARES WHAT THE REST OF THE COUNCIL PEOPLE THINK.

YOUR DISTRICT, IF YOU'RE -- YOU'RE REPRESENTING THEM AND MORE PEOPLE ARE DYING AND MORE PEOPLE ARE GETTING SICK AND LESS PEOPLE HAVE VACCINATIONS, THEN YOU'RE NOT REPRESENTING THEM TO THE POINT WHERE I THINK THAT THEY ELECTED YOU TO DO.

I DON'T LIVE IN THOSE DISTRICTS, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY'RE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE TO THE VOTERS THAT PUT THEM IN THOSE SEATS.

>> WELL, LET ME ARGUE THIS THOUGH.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED YOU IN AS OPPOSED TO TRUST AND I DON'T LIKE SAM PAGE AND ALL THIS.

ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS ARE ANCILLARY.

>> I WILL SAY THIS THOUGH.

WHO'S BEEN IN CHARGE FOR VACCINATING THOSE AREAS?

WHEN YOU'RE DR. SAM PAGE AND THE EXECUTIVE AND YOU HIRE SOMEONE AS A LIAISON TO TRY TO GET ALL THE DIFFERENT AREAS F THEY'RE LACKING IN VACCINATIONS AND THESE AREAS ARE BEHIND, IT'S ACTUALLY A REFLECTION OF THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE AND THE PLANS THEY PUT FORWARD TO TRY TO GET NOTICES AREAS.

AS A COUNTY COUNCILWOMAN IF YOU WERE LOOKING AT THAT AND SAYING THEIR PLAN ISN'T WORKING, YOU GOT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, I DON'T BLAME THEM FOR SAYING NO MASK MANDATE BECAUSE WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS NOT WORKING.

>> I THINK THAT -- >> BUT I DO SSH GO AHEAD, SARAH.

>> I THINK IN THOSE DISTRICTS, THE VACCINATION RATES ARE QUITE A BIT LOWER BECAUSE THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO SOLDIERED THROUGH THE PANDEMIC.

THEY HAD TO GO TO WORK.

THEY HAD TO RIDE THE BUSES.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SHELTERED AT HOME, WORKED OUT OF THEIR BASEMENT AND IN LESS ANNUITANT DISTRICTS, THAT WASN'T AN OPTION.

SO THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF, HEY, I GOT THROUGH THIS, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE SO BAD.

ITS WONDER IF THEIR DISTRICTS ARE AS WOUND UP ABOUT WANTING MASKS AS THE WEBSTER GROVE TYPES THAT LISA CLANCY REPRESENTS AND KELLI DUNAWAY REPRESENTS.

>> I THINK IT'S A BROADER, LOOKING AT IT FROM 40,000 FEET, THIS IS JUST DEAD WRONG AS PUBLIC POLICY, NOT TO BE -- AND I UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT BY ANY MEANS, A LOCAL STORY.

IT'S ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

IT'S DEAD WRONG.

NOW, I HAPPEN TO HAVE A GREAT REGARD FOR RITA HEARD DAY WHO I THINK HAS DONE A GREAT JOB AS CHAIRWOMAN AND TIM FITCH AND THE OTHERS, BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU, THIS IS JUST WRONG.

I MEAN, WE ARE IN A SERIOUS PANDEMIC.

THIS IS -- THE IDEA -- AND NONE OF US LIKES TO WEAR MASKS, BUT THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD BE VACILLATING ABOUT A PANDEMIC OVER THE INCONVENIENCE AND TRYING TO TURN -- TRYING TO CREATE A HUMAN FREEDOM THAT SAYS I HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENDANGER OTHER PEOPLE'S HEALTH AND, YOU KNOW, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE MOVED INTO THIS ERA WHERE WE DON'T TRUST THE PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS.

NOW T I AGREE WITH RYAN ABOUT ONE THING ON THE SECOND HALF OF WHAT YOU SAID, WHICH IS DR.

PAGE HAS, YOU KNOW, HAS A STYLE THAT DISRESPECTS THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL.

THERE'S NO GETTING AROUND IT.

>> BUT HEY -- >> IT'S A PROCESS AND HE MADE IT WORSE ON HIMSELF, BUT PAGE IS RIGHT ON THIS ISSUE.

LET'S BEEN CLEAR.

THIS ISN'T EVEN AMBIGUOUS.

>> I GOT TWO THOUGHTS ON THIS.

I THINK THE MASKS, WE TRIED THAT BEFORE WITH THE SOCIAL ISOLATION AND OTHER MEASURES, AND THE NUMBERS WENT UP AND UP.

THE KEY TO ALL THIS IS THE VACCINE AND I THINK THE MASKS ARE A HEAD FAKE AND A DISTRACTION FROM WHAT WE REALLY NEED AND THE VACCINE.

I DISAGREE WITH RYAN.

I DON'T BLAME IT ON SAM PAGE.

HE'S BEEN OUT THERE ALL THE TIME TELLING, GET THE VACCINE, AS ALL OF THESE ELECTED OFFICIALS, LOCALLY, ANYWAY, HAVE BEEN DOING.

IT'S THE INDIVIDUAL, I CANNOT BLAME THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE LACK OF VACCINES.

FOR SOME REASON, PEOPLE IN MISSOURI HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT TO GET THE JAB AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

I BLAME THEM.

I DO NOT BLAME SAM PAGE.

I DON'T BLAME MIKE PARSON, ANYBODY.

>> EXCUSE ME, DR. BRENNAN, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, I'VE HAD A BUNCH OF -- AND YOU HAVE MUCH MORE ACCESS TO THIS MANY PEOPLE THAN I DO, BUT EVERY DOCTOR YOU GET ON, EVERY MEDICAL EXPERT, EVERY INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT SAYS MASKS WORK.

AND TO CONFLATE THEM WITH THE SHUTDOWN, THE KIND OF ARGUMENT THAT'S GOING ON IN THE COUNTY COUNCIL MEETINGS, THESE PEOPLE WITH THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES, WHO BY THE WAY DON'T SPEAK FOR US BECAUSE THOSE OF US THAT ARE ON THE SAME SIDE OF THIS DON'T WANT TO GO TO A SUPER SPREADER EVENT AND WASTE OUR TIME AT A COUNTY COUNCIL MEETING, BUT THE POINT IS THIS, THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE -- THIS IDEA, IF WE WERE ARGUING ABOUT AN ECONOMIC SHUTDOWN, I'D BE WITH YOU.

FINE, THAT WOULD BE A TERRIBLE IDEA.

A MANDATE -- MASKS AND THE ECONOMIC SHUTDOWN ARE TWO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

>> BUT CHARLIE, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW CASES WENT UP WHEN PEOPLE WERE WEARING MASKS.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW HIGH THEY WOULD HAVE GONE WITHOUT THAT.

WE'RE SEEING A BIT OF THIS NOW.

WE HAD OUR COUPLE MONTHS OF FREEDOM.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU ALL, BUT I WAS OUT THERE GOING TO THE BAR, GOING TO RESTAURANTS NOT WEARING MASKS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHY WE'RE SEEING SOME OF THE MASSIVE SPREAD WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

>> I THINK I SAW YOU.

>> RAY SAYS THAT NO DOCTOR POO-POOS THE MASK.

ACTUALLY, MARTY McCASEY FROM WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY ALONG WITH A COLLEAGUE FROM TUFTS.

>> NO SELF-RESPECTING.

>> BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS -- ASK THE DOCTORS WHAT'S THE ANSWER, IT'S THE VACCINE.

WE'RE TAKING OUR EYES OFF THE PRIZE.

>> NO, WE'RE NOT.

>> WE ARE, WE ARE.

>> THERE ARE TWO -- THIS IS NOT -- IT WOULD BE NICE IF THE PANDEMIC WAS LIKE MORE COOPERATIVE, OR THE REQUIRED VIRUS, BUT THIS IS A COMPLEX THING.

THE IDEA IT CAN ONLY BE VACCINES, IT CAN'T BE VACCINES AND MASKS, WHY?

WE CAN ONLY -- OUR BRAINS CAN ONLY ASSIMILATE ONE THOUGHT AT A TIME?

>> THEY SAID SO JUST TWO MONTHS AGO.

IF YOU'RE VACCINATED, YOU CAN DO INDOORS.

>> IT WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYBODY IS VACCINATED, BUT THAT'S THE -- >> THAT'S THE COMBINATION.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO WEAR MASKS FOREVER.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT, BUT THE VACCINE CAN CHANGE IT.

>> BUT NOW VACCINES AND MASKS AS A COMBINED STRATEGY ARE THE WAY TO GO AND THE ENTIRE MEDICAL COMMUNITY WOULD EXCEPT THAT DR. BINNY-BOOM-BASSA WOULD SAY -- >> AND THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WANT TO STOP THE MASKS ARE THE SAME PEOPLE IN JEFFERSON CITY WHO WANT TO STOP THE VACCINE PASSPORT.

IF WE'RE GOING TO GO ON VACCINES, WE HAVE TO GO HARDER ON VACCINES.

>> I DON'T WANT TO MISQUOTE DR. McCASEY, HE DOES BELIEVE IN MASKS, BUT HE SAID IN SCHOOLS ANYWAY, THEY'RE PROBABLY THE FIFTH IMPORTANT THING BEHIND VENTILATION AND DISTANCING AND WORKING IN PODS, ETCETERA.

NONETHELESS, LET ME ASK YOU, ALVIN, ABOUT ERIC SCHMITT, WHO WAS HOUNDED BY JACKSUNTRUP -- JACK SUNTRUP OF THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, ABOUT WHETHER THEY ARE VACCINATED.

IT TURNS OUT THAT TWO OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES ARE VACCINATED.

McCLOSKEY HAS NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

ERIC GREITENS HASN'T TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE.

ERIC SCHMITT, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO WANTS TO BECOME A U.S. SENATE, HE WAS CAUGHT AND SAID, YEAH, I'M VACCINATED, BUT IT WAS A PERSONAL DECISION.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> MY FIRST REACTION, AS THIS IS KIND OF TO THAT PROFESSIONAL SPORTS SIDE, THAT WHEN -- IF IT COMES UM LIKE ARE YOU VACCINATED AND I DON'T WANT TO TELL YOU, I JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THEY ARE NOT VACCINATED.

ON THE POLITICAL SIDE, THANKS TO SARAH FENSKE EARLIER, I ACTUALLY LISTENED AND I'M THINKING LIKE, OH NO, IT'S POLITICALLY, YOU KNOW, EXPEDIENT FOR ME TO NOT SAY BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO ADMIT THAT I AM VACCINATED, WHICH IS -- THAT'S MORE SHAMEFUL, REALLY, THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S GOING ON AT COUNTY COUNCIL IN THAT, LISTEN, IF YOU'RE VACCINATED, YOU SHOULD TELL PEOPLE YOU'RE VACCINATED AND YOU SHOULD SAY THAT THEY, TOO, SHOULD BE VACCINATED.

AND IT'S BIGGER THAN YOU TRYING TO BE A SENATOR OR FOR WHATEVER OFFICE THAT YOU'RE RUNNING FOR.

NOW, HYPOCRISY AND JUST SAYING, DOING WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO TO GET AN OFFICE, THAT'S BEEN RUNNING WILD ON THAT SIDE OF THE AISLE FOR A FEW YEARS NOW.

IT'S SAD, BUT IT'S A REALITY.

>> I TELL YOU WHAT A REALITY IS.

FOR ERIC SCHMITT IN THE KNUCKLE DRAGGER WORLD HE'S LIVING IN, THERE'S ONLY ONE RIGHT ANSWER, WHICH IS THAT I WASN'T VACCINATED.

OKAY?

FOR HIS BASE, FOR THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY FOR SENATE, THE ONLY CORRECT ANSWER IS I'M NOT VACCINATED, I DON'T BELIEVE IN IT.

WELL, OBVIOUSLY, HE DIDN'T CHOOSE TO LIE, TO HIS CREDIT, I SUPPOSE, SO WHAT'S THE NEXT BEST THING IF YOU'RE ERIC SCHMITT?

MAKE IT ABOUT THE MEDIA.

RIGHT OUT OF THE TRUMP PLAYBOOK.

MAKE IT ABOUT THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, ALL THIS COMING AFTER US AND INTRUDING.

MAKE YOURSELF A VICTIM OF THE MEDIA IF YOU GOT TO SAY IT AND IT'S A REALLY SMART POLITICAL STRATEGY TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT TO WHETHER THE MEDIA SHOULD BE HOUNDING HIM ABOUT THIS.

>> I THINK ERIC SCHMITT IS ONE OF THESE GUYS KIND OF LIKE, FRANKLY, ERIC GREITENS, FORMER DEMOCRAT TRYING TO APPEAL FOR THIS BASE THAT IVENT HIS NATURAL BASE.

YOU HAVE A GUY LIKE BILLY LONG, RUNNING FOR THE SAME SEAT, AND HE'S ABLE TO CONFIDENTIALLY SAY, YEAH, I'VE BEEN VACCINATED.

I HOPE MY CONSTITUENTS ARE VACCINATED.

HE KNOWS HIS PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO CHALLENGE HIP.

ERIC SCHMITT DOESN'T HAVE THOSE PEOPLE, ERIC GREITENS DOESN'T HAVE THEM.

MARK McCLOSKEY, ST. LOUIS TRIAL ATTORNEY WHO LIVES IN A MIDWESTERN PALLAZZO, ONE OF THE GREAT POLITICAL QUESTIONS OF OUR TIME.

>> IT WAS REPORTED LAST WEEK THAT PEOPLE IN RURAL MISSOURI ARE WEARING DISGUISES WHEN THEY GO TO THE DRUGSTORE FOR A VACCINE BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID THEIR NEIGHBORS WILL SEE THEM GETTING THE VACCINE.

CRAZY.

RAY HARTMANN, BY THE WAY, I APPRECIATED THE RODNEY DANGERFIELD REFERENCE, EARLIER.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SARAH WALSH, SHE'S A STATE REP I BELIEVE RUNNING FOR VICKY HARTZLER'S SEAT.

SHE'S REPUBLICAN.

HER HUSBAND IS HER PRESS SECRETARY.

STEVE AND SARAH BOTH CAME DOWN WITH COVID-19.

NEITHER ARE VACCINATED AND I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY THE REASONS THEY GAVE FOR THAT, BUT STEVE LAST WEEK WAS ON A VENTILATOR AND I GUESS WE HOPE HE'S DOING WELL, BUT HE DOES BRING UP THE ISSUE OF -- THAT'S REALLY, I THINK PARAMOUNT FOR THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY, WHICH IS WHY I REALLY THINK THAT MANY DOCTORS ARE SAYING, HEY, LET'S TACKLE THIS THING.

THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF NURSES.

THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF BEDS, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING HEART ATTACKS OR WHO HAVE HEART DISEASE OR EVEN SOME ELECTIVE PROCEDURES LIKE THEY'RE GETTING, YOU KNOW, NEW HIPS OR WHATEVER, AND THEY'RE COMPLETELY INCONVENIENCED BY THE STEVE WALSHES OF THE WORLD WHO ARE IN THE HOSPITAL AND IT ALL COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, HIS HOSPITALIZATION, HAD HE HAD THAT VACCINE.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT 98% OF THE PEOPLE WITH COVID IN HOSPITALS WERE NOT VACCINATED.

SO I THINK THE HOSPITALS SHOULD READJUST THEIR TRIAGE PROCEDURES AND SAY, OKAY, IF YOU ARE IN THE HOSPITAL WITH COVID-19 AND YOU ELECTED NOT TO GET VACCINATED, YOU'LL TAKE A BACK SEAT TO SOME OF THESE OTHER PATIENTS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

>> NOT MUCH.

I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THAT.

I WILL SAY THIS.

I WROTE ABOUT IN THIS WEEK IN THE RFT AND IT WAS A LITTLE DELICATE BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, SARAH WALSH, YOU KNOW, IS ASKING FOR PRAYERS AFTER SHE AND HER HUSBAND, THE PRESS SECRETARY TO VICKY HARTZLER, STEVE HAD VERY, YOU KNOW, REALLY VOCALLY OPPOSED VACCINE.

SAID THEY WERE WEREN'T GETTING IT.

STEVE HAD DONE A LOT OF RETWEETS OF THINGS MAKING FUN OF VACCINES, AND I'M NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT WANTS TO IN ANY WAY EXPLOIT THAT.

I HOPE HE GETS BETTER.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS HE'S STILL ON A VENTILATOR AS RECENTLY AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, I'M TOLD, I MEAN, AND IT'S A REAL DIRE SITUATION FOR HIM, TO BE HONEST.

AND VICKY HARTZLER, OF COURSE, IS PRO VACCINE.

AS FAR AS THE HOSPITALS THEMSELVES, WE CAN'T -- THE HOSPITAL'S JOB IS TO KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE AND WE CAN'T DONNYBROOK WE CAN'T -- OF ALL THE THINGS WE DON'T WANT TO GET POLITICS INTO, WE CAN'T.

>> WE KNOW A LOT MORE PEOPLE DIED OF HEART DISEASE LAST YEAR, THERE WAS A BIG JUMP, AND THEY WERE SAYING A LOT OF IT WAS FROM COVID AND A LOT OF PEOPLE DISSUADED FROM GOING TO THE HOSPITAL.

>> WE DON'T LOOK AT HEART DISEASE AND ASK WHAT CAUSED IT, WE DON'T LOOK AT CANCER AND ASK WHAT CAUSED IT.

YOU CAN'T GO THERE.

>> WE CAN.

>> HOSPITALS HAVE TO BE SAVING LIVES, PERIOD, WITHOUT REGARD TO POLITICS.

>> CHARLIE, I'VE TALKED ABOUT CHURCHES BEFORE AND PEOPLE BRINGING -- I HAVE THE RIGHT TO BRING A GUN IN CHURCH.

CHURCH IS A PLACE OF TRANQUILITY AND IF PEOPLE DO NOT WANT GUNS IN THERE, THAT'S RIGHT.

WELL, THE HOSPITAL IS A PLACE OF MERCY AND I WOULDN'T ASK THEM TO BOOT OUT THE GUNSHOT VICTIM WHO WAS DEALING DOPE ON THE CORNER.

I MEAN, HE OR SHE IS THERE.

YOU HAVE TO HELP THEM.

AND SO I'M GOING TO WAIVE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER I FEEL OF WHY YOU'RE THERE BECAUSE THEY JUST HAVE TO SAVE YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE CLOSEST TO DEATH AND YOU USED THE TERM TRIAGE AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S GOOD.

WHO'S CLOSER TO DYING, OKAY?

IF YOU'RE CLOSE TO DYING, THEN THAT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.

>> YEAH, AND LET ME POINT OUT ONE OTHER THING.

THE INTERNET IS REALLY GOOD AT DANCING ON YOUR GRAVE, SO IF THEY FIND SOMETHING LIKE THIS OUT, YOU CAN LOOK AT ALL THE MEAN COMMENTS, BUT I THINK ONE OF THE BIG CRITICISMS, GOING BACK TO EVEN TEN YEARS AGO WHEN OBAMACARE WAS BROUGHT OUT WAS THE IDEA OF A DEATH PANEL, WHICH IS WE'RE GOING TO DECIDE WHO LIVES AND WHO DOESN'T.

TO IF WE THINK YOU'RE NOT WORTHY OF A BED, WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THAT TO SOMEONE ELSE AND I THINK THAT WAS WIDELY REJECTED, THEY THOUGHT THAT WAS THE WRONG WAY TO GO.

GIVEN THAT THEY WERE PROBABLY TALKING ABOUT THE ELDERLY AND SOMEONE THAT MIGHT NEVER RECOVER TO, GIVE THE BED TO SOMEONE ELSE, BUT IF WE'RE LOOKING AT THAT EXACT SAME SCENARIO TO SAY IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED, YOU'RE NOT WORTHY, THAT'S THE WRONG WAY TO DO IT.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT DEATH PANELS WERE EVER A THING.

>> I ACTUALLY INTERVIEWED A MEDICAL ETHICIST AND THEY HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS ALL THE TIME ABOUT WHO THEY TREAT AND IN WHAT WAYS THEY TREAT, SO I GET CHARLIE'S POINT, BUT BOY, THAT'S THE WORST SLIPPERY SLOPE AND I'M TERRIFIED IF WE AS A SOCIETY DECIDE TO DO THAT.

>> WELL, YOU ARE TREATING PEOPLE LIKE ADULTS WHEN YOU TREAT THEM THE WAY I SUGGEST.

>> AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING OUR SOCIETY Z CHARLIE.

>> I KNOW, BUT I FEEL THE SAME WAY WITH PEOPLE WHO RIDE MOTORCYCLES WITHOUT HELMETS AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD PAY MORE FOR INSURANCE.

FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK SMOKERS SHOULD AND I THINK THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY, NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FUND YOUR ACCIDENT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HELP YOU IF YOU ARE THE RESULT OF A SCUBA DIVING OR ROCK CLIMBING -- >> BUT THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE CHILDREN, BUT I THINK ALL THE REST OF US DO.

-- >> HE DOES.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THEY DO THIS ANYMORE, BUT DID YOU EVER SEE THAT BILL THAT YOU DON'T PAY WHEN YOUR WIFE OR YOUR -- SARAH, WHEN YOU HAVE A BABY, OKAY?

IT'S LIKE A LOT OF MONEY.

>> OH YEAH.

>> AND SO WE DON'T TURN MOMS AWAY WHO SHOW UP AT THE HOSPITAL AND ARE GOING TO HAVE A BIRTH AND IT COSTS JUST AS MUCH, AND BECAUSE -- I MEAN, WE JUST DON'T DO THAT.

AND SO -- >> WE HAVE ONE MORE TOPIC.

>> WE CAN AT LEAST AGREE ON NOT LEAVING PEOPLE ON THE CONCRETE OUTSIDE THE EMERGENCY ROOM.

I MEAN, WE JUST -- WE HAVE TO -- >> BUT RIGHT NOW THESE EMERGENCY ROOMS ARE JAMMED BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF NURSES.

OKAY, FINAL ONE.

SARAH, GOVERNOR PRITZKER IN ILLINOIS, J.B. PRITZKER SIGNED A BILL FORMING THE ILLINOIS HIGH SPEED RAILWAY COMMISSION TRYING TO SET THINGS IN MOTION FOR HIGH SPEED RAIL CONNECTING CHICAGO TO ST. LOUIS AND VICE VERSA.

YOU THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DEMAND FOR CHICAGOANS TO COME HERE REALLY QUICKLY?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WANT TO COME HERE, BUT MAN, I'D BE THERE EVERY WEEKEND.

I MEAN, TWO AND A HALF HOURS TO CHICAGO.

I LOVE THAT CITY.

>> ME TOO.

ME TOO.

>> I THINK THIS IS GREAT.

I HOPE THEY DO IT.

I HOPE THEY CAN FULL IT OFF.

THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THE STATE OF ILLINOIS THAT GIVES ME ANY ASSURANCE THAT THEY CAN PULL THIS OFF, BUT I WANT TO BELIEVE.

>> THAT'S A -- >> THEN WE CAN HYPERLINK TO KANSAS CITY.

COME ON, CHARLIE, WE CAN GO FROM CHICAGO TO KANSAS CITY.

>> YOU CAN CONNECT IT TO THE LOOP TROLLEY, THAT'S CORRECT.

>> DOING A NICE AD FOR THE CBC.

ALL OF US SAYING I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WANT TO COME HERE, BUT WE WANT TO GO THERE.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I AM SO PRO BULLET TRAIN AND I UNDERSTAND IT'S PROBABLY NOT HAPPENING IN OUR LIFETIME, BUT I -- I'M LIKE, YES, LET'S DO IT.

DO IT CLAM.

>> YEAH, I THINK THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE UNITED STATES IS BUILT IN A WAY WHERE IT REALLY DEINCENTIVIZES THAT SORT OF THING, BUT IF WE LOOK AT OTHER EXAMPLES OF THESE TRAINS BUILT, CALIFORNIA HAD A GREAT EXAMPLE.

THEY PUT A TRACK TOGETHER THAT WAS LESS THAN HALF THE ZIZE THAT'S STUDIED -- SIDE THAT'S STUDIES BETWEEN ST. LOUIS AND CHICAGO AND THE COSTS KEPT RISING AND RISING AND THE DATE OF COMPLETION KEPT GAG BACK.

THEY GOT TO 100 BILLION DOLLARS AND THEY WOULDN'T COMPLETE THE THING.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO DEDICATE THAT MUCH MONEY IF YOU GET THAT BENEFIT OUT OF IT.

>> BUT THESE ARE FACTS.

THIS IS DONNYBROOK.

THOSE ARE FACT.

>> IN AMERICA, WE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYBODY ELSE'S COUNTRY CAN DO AND THEY'RE DONE AND DONE WELL IN OTHER COUNTRIES, SO I THINK WE CAN DO IT BETWEEN HERE AND CHICAGO.

>> SPEAKING AS A FORMER CALIFORNIA RESIDENT, JUST BECAUSE THAT STATE IS UNGOVERN BUILDING AN AND CANNOT FIGURE THINGS OUT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THE BEST OF US SHOULD GIVE UP.

>> SARAH, THANK YOU.

YOUR COMMENTS ARE THE LAST ONE FOR THIS PROGRAM.

WE APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.

WE'LL BE LISTENING TO YOU ON KWMU.

RYAN, THANKS FOR YOUR DEBUT.

WE'LL FOLLOW YOU ON KMOX.

GENTLEMEN, WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK, BUT RAY DON'T YOU GO TOO FAR BECAUSE YOU AND I ARE TALKING TO CONDUCTOR LAUREATE OF THE ST. LOUIS SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA LEONARD SLATKIN ON NEXT UP.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEXT UP.

THIS IS WHERE WE INTERVIEW COMMUNITY LEADERS AND WE'RE SO PROUD, RAY HARTMANN AND I, TO WELCOME MAESTRO LEONARD SLATKIN TO NEXT UP.

HE'S, OF COURSE, THE MUSIC DIRECTOR LAUREATE OF THE DETROIT SYMPHONY, HONORARY DIRECTOR OF THE LEONE SYMPHONY IN FRANCE, CONDUCTOR LAUREATE OF OR ST. LOUIS SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA, THE WINNER OF SIX GRAMMYS, THE RECIPIENT OF THE NATIONAL MEDAL OF ARTS, ALSO HOLDS THE RANK OF K CH EVALIER IN THE FRENCH LEGION OF HONOR AND HAS JUST PEN ADD NEW PAGE TURNER WHICH IS PUBLISHED ON SEPTEMBER THE 15th.

IT'S TITLED "CLASSICAL CROSSROADS: THE PATH FORWARD FOR MUSIC IN THE 21st CENTURY."

LEONARD SLATKIN, MAESTRO, WELCOME TO NINE PBS.

>> VERY NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN, CHARLIE AND RAY.

>> WE KNOW YOU ARE SCHEDULED TO CONDUCT THE ST. LOUIS SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA AT POWELL HALL IN OCTOBER, BUT COVID IS POSING A CHALLENGE FOR AMERICAN ORCHESTRAS, IS IT NOT?

>> NOT JUST AMERICAN ORCHESTRAS.

IT'S ALL OVER THE WORLD AND AS WE'RE SPEAKING, EVEN TODAY I'M HEARING FROM SOME OF MY VERY GOOD MUSICIAN PALS WHO HAVE JUST BEEN PROHIBITED FROM GOING TO EUROPE TO PERFORM AGAIN.

SO THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT AND LEFT.

WE HAVE NOT PROGRESSED THAT MUCH AT ALL, AT LEAST FOR THE PERFORMING ARTS.

WE ARE PLAYING, WHEN WE DO FOR AUDIENCES, LIMITED SIZE.

SOME OBVIOUSLY HAVE AUDIENCES IN MASKS AND SOME EVEN HAVE MEMBERS IN THE ORCHESTRA WEARING MASKS.

I'VE HAD TO CONDUCT A FEW PROGRAMS WITH THAT ON, AND CAN YOU IMAGINE FOR CONDUCTORS, I DID THIS, I'VE TAKEN UP A GREAT NUMBER OF THE TOOLS I NEED TO CONDUCT.

IT'S LIKE ASKING THE FLUTE PLAYER, WELL, YOU CAN PLAY, BUT YOU CAN ONLY USE TWO FINGERS, SO WE'RE LIMITED IN WHAT WE CAN DO.

BUT WE DO TRY TO DO OUR BEST.

>> MR. SLATKIN, FIRST OFF, I DON'T NORMALLY SPEAK FOR ST. LOUIS, BUT I THINK I CAN SPEAK FOR PEOPLE, HOW EXCITED EVERYBODY IS THAT YOU MOVED BACK TO ST. LOUIS ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, CORRECT?

>> CORRECT.

BUT I REALLY NEVER HAD MUCH DOUBT AT ALL.

THERE ARE FOUR GENERATIONS OF SLATKINS THAT ARE CONNECTED WITH THIS CITY.

MY GRANDFATHER ON MY FATHER'S SIDE CAME HERE AT THE BEGIN OF THE 20th CENTURY.

MY FATHER WAS BORN HERE, EVEN PLAYED IN THE ORCHESTRA AND LIVED HERE FOR 19 YEARS.

I WAS HERE AS A RESIDENT CONDUCTOR FOR 27 AND MY SON WAS BORN HERE.

SO FOR FOUR GENERATIONS OF SLATKINS, THERE WASN'T MUCH CHOICE.

>> AND IS IT TRUE THAT A CERTAIN BASEBALL TEAM WEIGHED INTO THIS DECISION?

>> IT DID.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT BEING AWAY BECAUSE THE FIRST -- I MADE WATCHING GAMES WHEN I GOT THERE, AND, OF COURSE, I WENT IMMEDIATELY TO CONGRESS.

IT TOOK TEN YEARS, BUT I GOT THEM A BASEBALL TEAM.

THAT WAS ALL MY DOING.

PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THAT.

THEN AFTER THAT, I WENT TO DETROIT AND I WAS STUCK WITH THE AMERICAN LEAGUE FOR TEN YEARS AND I HAD TO GET OUT OF THERE, SO I NEEDED TO COME HOME TO MY BOYS IN RED.

>> IS IT TRUE WHEN YOU WERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., THAT SOMEONE WHO SUBSTITUTED WITH YOU -- FILL ME IN -- WAS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BILL CLINTON?

>> IT WAS TRUE.

WE HAD REDEDICATED THE CONCERT HALL.

IT NEEDED A DRASTIC ACOUSTIC AS WELL AS VISUAL OVERHAUL AND WE HAD TWO DEDICATORY CONCERTS AND I INVITED THE PRESIDENT TO COME AND CONDUCT.

HE COULD NOT REHEARSE, SO HE INVITED ME TO THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE WE SPENT SUPPOSED TO BE 25 MINUTES FOR A CONDUCTING LESSON, BUT IT TURNED OUT HE ALREADY NOW HOW TO CONDUCT.

HE ASKED ME HOW DO I SLOW DOWN THE PROCEDURE WITH THE BEAT AND -- IT DID TURN OUT HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING, BUT HE WAS QUITE NERVOUS.

I GOT TO INTRODUCE HIM BECAUSE THE AUDIENCE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS HAPPEN.

I JUST SAID I'M TIRED AFTER ALL THESE YEARS OF CONDUCTING IN WASHINGTON THESE STARS AND STRIPES FOREVER AND I WANTED TO TURN IT OVER TO OUR NEW ASSISTANT CONDUCTOR, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

OUT HE CAME AND HE STARTED, AND WHAT WAS VERY COOL WAS THAT HE END WROTE IT IN HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY, THAT IT WAS A MEMORABLE OCCASION FOR HIM SIMPLY BECAUSE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ALL OF HIS YEARS IN WASHINGTON, HE GOT 100 PEOPLE TO FOLLOW WHAT HE WAS DOING.

>> IT WAS ALMOST 50 YEARS AGO THAT YOUR MOTHER GAVE US ONE OF THE GREATEST LIGHT MOTIFES IN AMERICAN MUSIC.

WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT?

>> SURE.

MY PARENTS WERE VERY MUCH PART OF THE HOLLYWOOD MUSICAL SCENE.

ALMOST ANYBODY WATCHING US, LISTENING TO US, WILL HAVE HEARD THEM.

MY FATHER WAS THE CONCERT NASER, FIRST VIOLINIST OF THE ORCHESTRA AT 20th CENTURY FOX.

ME MOTHER WAS THE FIRST CELLIST AT WARNER BROTHERS, BUT AFTER 1956 AND THE END OF THE McCARTHY ERA, ALL THE STUDIOS AS WE KNEW THEM CHANGED.

THEY WERE NO LONGER CONTRACT ACTORS, DIRECTORS, MUSICIANS, SO ALL THE MUSICIANS WENT TO PLAY WITH EVERY STUDIO.

MY MOTHER JUST BOUNCED AROUND FROM ONE TO THE OTHER, ALWAYS AS A FIRST CELLIST AND THE LAST SESSIONS SHE DID AS CELLIST IN AN ORCHESTRA WERE AT THE PRINCIPAL FOR A STILL RELATIVELY YOUNG MAN NAMED JOHN WILLIAMS AND HE WAS DOING THIS LITTLE MOVIE WITH SOMEBODY NAMED SPIELBERG, SOMETHING TO DO WITH A FISH, I THINK, AND THEN THERE WERE THESE TWO NOTES, DA-DUM, DA-DUM, AND JOHN WILLIAMS POINTED OUT, MY FATHER WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO LITERALLY SCARE AUDIENCES WORLDWIDE AND I WOULD ALWAYS TELL JOHN, NO, NO, SHE WAS SCARING ALL OF US WELL BEFORE THAT.

SHE WAS JAWS.

>> WELL, MAESTRO, IN ADDITION TO YOUR OBVIOUS GREATNESS THAT YOU HAVE, ONE OF THE DISTINCTIVE FEATURES, WHICH I LEARN WHEN I HAD THE HONOR OF HAVING YOU ON A RADIO SHOW, IS HOW MANY DIFFERENT SYMPHONIES YOU HAVE CONDUCTED EITHER AS A RESIDENT CONDUCTOR OR A GUEST, VISITING, GUEST CONDUCTOR.

TALK ABOUT THAT, WHY YOU CHOSE EVERYWHERE NOT ONLY IN OUR COUNTRY, AROUND THE COUNTRY, BUT ALL OVER.

WHAT DROVE YOU TO DO THAT?

>> WELL, WITH MY WHOLE FAMILY BEING IN MUSIC, AND THIS GOES BACK SEVERAL GENERATIONS, THERE WAS PRETTY MUCH NO QUESTION THAT I WOULD GO SOME ASPECT.

FIRST I THOUGHT I'D BE A VIOLINIST AND THEN A PIANIST OR A COMPOSER, A FEW OTHER THINGS.

AND EVENTUALLY AFTER MY FATHER PASSED AWAY, HE WAS ONLY 47, I WAS 19, I KIND OF LEFT MUSIC FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF, THOUGHT I WOULD BE AN ENGLISH TEACHER.

BUT FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES WANTED ME TO GET BACK INTO MUSIC AND THEY THOUGHT I SHOULD CONTINUE THE PATH THAT MY FATHER BEGAN ON, BUT HARDLY COULD COMPLETE AND THAT WAS AS A CONDUCTOR.

SO I BEGAN MY STUDIES AND WOUND UP HERE IN ST. LOUIS AS THE SYMPHONY CONDUCTOR IN 1968.

I HAD NO IDEA HOW FAR I WOULD GET IN THIS CAREER, IN THIS BUSINESS.

I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT.

I JUST KNEW THAT OF ALL THE THINGS IN MUSIC THAT I HAD DONE AND ATTEMPTED TO DO, THIS WAS THE ONE I FELT THE MOST QUALIFIED FOR, THE ONE THAT I FELT I COULD DO THE BEST.

AND WHAT A LIFE IT'S BEEN.

I'VE TRAVELED ALL OVER.

I'VE CONDUCTED LITERALLY ALL THE MAJOR ORCHESTRAS IN THE WORLD, BEEN IN ALMOST ALL THE MAJOR OPERA HOUSES, AND THE JOY OF MAKING MUSIC WITH DISPARATE MUSICIANS, DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO THE MUSIC, YOU'RE IN A CONSTANT STATE OF LEARNING.

AS WE'RE TALKING, JUST A WEEK AGO, I WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO WORKING WITH A COMBINATION OF DISTINGUISHED PROFESSIONALS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, BUT ALSO COMBINING THEM WITH STUDENTS WHO HAD COME ALL THE WAY TO SAN FRANCISCO FROM TAIPEI WHERE THEY SPENT TWO WEEKS IF QUARANTINE BEFORE THEY COULD EVEN GET IN THE STATES AND ANOTHER TWO WEEKS TO GET TOGETHER, AND YET WE PRODUCED A MIRACULOUS SET OF CONCERTS TOGETHER.

MAYBE THAT'S THE GLORY OF IT FOR ME, THE IDEA THAT YOU NEVER STOP LEARNING.

YOU ALWAYS HAVE THIS INCREDIBLE CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE DEALING WITH THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, BUT USING NOTES INSTEAD OF WORDS.

>> HERE IN ST. LOUIS, STEPHAN DENOUVE IS OUR CONDUCTOR NOW FROM FRANCE AND FROM THE U.K.

THIS FALL, WE WELCOME STEPHANIE CHILDRESS, A 22-YEAR-OLD PHENOM, BUT BOTH ARE FROM OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

YOUR NEW BOOK, YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE CHANGING LANDSCAPE FOR AMERICAN CONDUCTORS.

>> RIGHT.

IT'S A VERY SIMILAR TIME AS IT WAS WHEN AMERICA FIRST BEGAN TO HAVE SYMPHONY ORCHESTRAS.

WE DIDN'T HAVE AMERICANS AS CONDUCTORS.

THE FIRST REAL AMERICAN TO EMERGE ON THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE WAS LEONARD BERN STEIN, BUT EVEN THEN, PEOPLE WHO RAN AMERICAN ORCHESTRAS CAME FROM OTHER PLACES.

AS DID MOST OF THE MUSICIANS.

SO WE WENT THROUGH A PERIOD WHEN I WAS HERE IN ST. LOUIS, MICHAEL HILTON HOLLIS WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO, A LOT OF AMERICAN MUSIC DIRECTORS IN THE '80s, '90s AND JUST INTO THE 2000s.

RIGHT NOW, AND IT'S PURELY BY COINCIDENCE, NOTHING PLANNED ABOUT IT, THE 20 TOP BUDGETED ORCHESTRAS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE ALL HEADED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FROM THE UNITED STATES.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, BUT IT SEEMS TO BEG THE QUESTION, ARE WE DOING SOMETHING WRONG THAT WE CAN'T PUT OUR OWN NATIVE GROWN TALENT IN THOSE POSITIONS?

PROBABLY THAT'S MORE OF EACH ORCHESTRA FINDING THE PERSON THEY BELIEVE IS BEST FOR THAER ENSEMBLE AND THEIR COMMUNITY.

I KNOW OF MANY AMERICANS WHO I THINK ARE DESERVING AS HAVING POSITIONS, AND I THINK MOST OF THEM WILL GET THEM EVENTUALLY.

IT'S JUST RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN THIS VERY, VERY STRANGE TIME.

THINK ABOUT IT.

COMBINATION OF PANDEMIC, YOU HAVE BLACK LIVES MATTER, YOU HAVE WOKE MOVEMENT, YOU HAVE CANCEL CULTURE.

IT'S LIKE EVERY CULTURAL DISASTER THAT COULD BEFALL US HAS HIT ALL AT ONCE AND WE HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

THAT'S KIND OF WHAT THE NEW BOOK IS ABOUT, LOOKING AT WHAT WAS DIFFERENT IN THE 20th CENTURY AND WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW, AND PERHAPS LOOKING AT SOLUTIONS.

SO FOR AMERICANS WHO GET A LITTLE, PERHAPS, HMM, DISSPIRITED BECAUSE THEY DON'T SEE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THEMSELVES MOVING FORWARD IN THIS INDUSTRY, I THINK IT WILL TURN AROUND IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

I THINK EVENTUALLY PEOPLE WILL FIND OTHER FOLKS THAT WERE LIKE ME AND FOUND A PATH TO GET TO WHERE THEY WILL BE THE HEADS OF THE MAJOR INSTITUTIONS.

I THINK WE'RE VERY CLOSE NOW JUST TO HAVING OUR VERY FIRST FEMALE DIRECTOR OF ONE OF THE TRULY MAJOR ORCHESTRAS.

IT'S NOT FAR OFF.

AGAIN, THIS IS SOMETHING WE WOULD NEVER HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT 15, 20 YEARS AGO, AND YET WE'RE GETTING CLOSE ON THAT FRONT.

ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS IN THE BOOK THAT'S SIMILAR, HAS TO DO WITH THE IDEA OF DIVERSITY WITHIN OUR FIELD.

CLASSICAL MUSIC INDUSTRY IS ALWAYS THOUGHT OF AS BEING THE DEAD WHITE MALE EUROPEANS AND IT'S BEEN THAT WAY FOR A LONG TIME.

THERE ARE LITTLE EXAMPLES ALONG THE WAY THAT HAVE CHANGED AND NOW WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE THE EMPHASIS ON DIVERSITY GROUPS, MINORITY GROUPS, MAYBE TO THE POINT WHERE WE'RE OVERDOING IT, BUT IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN ORDER TO COME TO SOME FORM OF NORMAL.

LET'S SEE HOW THINGS PLAY OUT.

I THINK IT WILL LOOK DIFFERENT IN THE NEXT YEAR AND A HALF, BUT WE NEED TO GIVE PEOPLE OF DIVERSE BACKGROUNDS MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO SHOW THEIR POTENTIAL GIFTS.

IF IT TURNS OUT IN THE LONG RUN THAT THERE ARE NOT AS MANY THERE AS WE THINK THERE SHOULD BE, THAT'S HOW IT WILL BALANCE, BUT WE DON'T KNOW THAT YET.

WE HAVE TO FIND THEM.

>> I SAW YOUR BOOK, IT'S CALLED CLASSICAL CROSSOVER, BUT TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT, AND TO YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THE CULTURE CHANGING, HAVE THE -- I KNOW THERE'S A CHAPTER ON AUDIENCES IN YOUR BOOK.

>> YES.

>> AND HAVE THE AUDIENCES AND THE ENVIRONMENT, THE EXPERIENCE OF THE SYMPHONY CHANGED, AND IF SO, HOW?

>> THEY'VE CHANGED A GREAT DEAL AND ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO -- TWO GOOD WAYS TO REALLY EXPLAIN IT IS WHEN I ARRIVED HERE AS ASSISTANT CONDUCTOR IN 1968, IN MY FIRST YEAR, I DID 83 CHILDREN'S CONCERTS.

83!

WE PLAYED NOT ONLY IN POWELL.

WE WENT TO THE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS.

I REMEMBER PLAYING AT KIRKWOOD AT 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT TO A PROFESSIONAL ORCHESTRA EVER, BUT WE DID IT AND WE'D USUALLY PLAY TWO CONCERTS AND THEY WOULD BRING THEM OFTEN INTO THE GYMNASIUM IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN AUDITORIUM NRASE OR THEY'D COME TO POWELL HALL.

NOT THAT ORCHESTRAS DON'T HAVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS NOW, BUT THEY'RE NOWHERE NEAR AS NUMEROUS.

MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT, THERE ARE MORE AND MORE SCHOOLS NOT ONLY IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT IN EUROPE, THAT DON'T HAVE PROPER ARTS EDUCATION.

I'M NOT TALKING JUST ABOUT MUSIC ANYMORE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT GOES INTO MAKING A CULTURED SOCIETY.

THE GREAT WORKS OF ART, THE BOOKS, THE POETRY, THE SCULPTURE, THE PAINTING AND THE MUSIC, OF COURSE.

SO THAT'S BEEN THE BIG CHANGE.

WE'VE LOST SO MUCH GROUND IN THE EDUCATION OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, AND I HAVE A KIND OF SOLUTION.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE BOOK IS I DECIDED THAT IF I'M GOING TO CRITICIZE HOW THINGS MIGHT BE, I NEED TO OFFER SOLUTIONS.

WHETHER THEY'RE RIGHT OR WRONG IS SOMETHING ELSE AND HOPEFULLY IT HAS SOME DEGREE OF CONTROVERSY AND PROVOCATION, BUT I THINK THE SOLUTION TO THIS IS ACTUALLY PRETTY SIMPLE WITHOUT SPENDING A LOT OF MONEY BECAUSE EVEN COMMENTATORS WHO NORMALLY WOULDN'T BE ON BOARD WITH ARTS EDUCATION, THEIR CHIEF ARGUMENT IS IT'S GOING TO COST TOO MUCH TO DO IT, EVEN IF THEY BELIEVE THAT ARTS EDUCATION SHOULD BE IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOL SECTOR.

WELL, IT WOULDN'T BE IF, IN ADDITION TO TRAINING OUR HISTORY TEACH TEACHER, GIVE INFORMATION NOT STUDENTS, GIVE THEM A LITTLE BACKGROUND IN THE ARTS.

WHEN YOU HAVE THE NAPOLEONIC ERA AND YOU'RE DISCUSSING THE FRENCH REVOLUTION, COUPLE THAT WITH LISTENING TO THE OPENING OF THE THIRD SYMPHONY OF BEETHOVEN.

[ AUDIO INTERRUPTION ] EMPEROR OF FRANCE AND YOU CAN HEAR THAT ANGER AND THE SEED OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION IN HIS OFFERING.

IMAGINE IF WE'RE DISCUSSING ELEMENTS OF THIS COUNTRY AS WE ENTER THE 20th CENTURY AND WE USE, SAY, SCOTT JOPLIN AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THAT MUSIC TRANSFORMED SOCIETY.

BUT PLACE IT IN THE CONTEXT OF HISTORY.

I DON'T EXPECT ANYBODY TO SAY I'M GOING TO STUDY ARTS AND BECOME AN ART TIS, NO.

BUT I THINK IT SHOULD BE A BASIC PART OF ANY YOUNG PERSON'S EDUCATION AND NOW WE REALLY DON'T HAVE AS MUCH AS WE SHOULD.

>> WELL, IT'S A DIFFERENT SOCIETY.

REMEMBER WHEN THE HUNTLEIGH -- HUNTLEY-BRINKLEY REPORT USED TO OPEN UP TO -- WAS IT BACH?

>> THE SECOND MOVEMENT.

NOW ANY CLASSIC MUSIC WE GET TO TV, IT'S PUT IN THE FORM OF AN ADVERTISEMENT AND IT'S ALTERED TO THE DEGREE YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE IT AND MAYBE IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT THERE'S ORIGINAL MUSIC STILL OUT THERE.

MY SON IS A COMPOSER, WRITING FOR STILLMAN TELEVISION ON THE WEST COAST.

LOOK FOR DANIEL SLATKIN, LOOK FOR THAT NAME IN A FEW YEARS.

HE'S GOING TO BECOME IMPORTANT, BUT I'M HOPING HE'LL BE ONE OF THESE PEOPLE THAT WITH INFLUENCE HOW WE LISTEN TO MUSIC AND HOW IT AFFECTS ALL OF US IN ALL KINDS OF MEDIA.

>> FOR SURE.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE DIVERSITY OF ORCHESTRAS.

THE ST. LOUIS SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA TURNS OUT TO BE THE FIRST MAJORITY FEMALE ORCHESTRA AMONG THE BIG ORCHESTRAS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT'S KIND OF UNIQUE.

>> RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> BUT SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT MAYBE THAT SCREEN, WHICH IS USED IN AUDITIONS, SHOULD BE REMOVED.

FOR A LONG TIME, THE PLAYERS, WHEN AUDITIONS WERE BEHIND A SCREEN SO THE JUDGES COULDN'T TELL IF THEY WERE TALL OR SHORT OR WHITE OR BLACK OR ANYTHING ELSE.

DO YOU THINK THAT SCREEN SHOULD BE REMOVED?

>> I HAVE A SOLUTION FOR THIS ONE TOO.

I'M OLD ENOUGH AND REMEMBER WHEN THE SCREENS FIRST WENT UP.

THAT WAS THE 1970s.

THE REASON THEY WENT UP WAS BECAUSE A BLACK SYMPHONYIST IN SAN FRANCISCO WAS WITH THE SAN FRANCISCO SYMPHONY WAS NOT GRANTED TENURE AND SHE SUED ON THE BASIS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.

SHE LOST THE LAWSUIT, BUT IT DID PROVOKE A MAJOR CHANGE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, AUDITIONS WERE DONE WHERE EVERYTHING WAS ANONYMOUS.

YOU COULDN'T SEE WHO THE PERSON WAS.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR HISTORY, THEIR BACKGROUND, WHERE THEY STUDIED.

AND FOR THAT TIME, FOR ABOUT 35, 40 YEARS CERTAINLY, I THINK IT WAS VALUABLE.

WE NEEDED TO HAVE A CHANGE.

AND THE FOCUS WAS CERTAINLY JUST ON HOW WELL DO THEY PLAY.

NOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED.

MOST ORCHESTRAS ARE VERY MUCH WITH A LARGE FEMALE POPULATION, BUT WE COME TO A CATCH-22 NOW.

AND THAT'S A VERY UNFORTUNATE ONE.

IF WE ARE WANTING TO ACHIEVE MORE DIVERSITY, HOW CAN YOU DO THAT IF YOU DON'T KNOW IF THE PERSON BEHIND THE SCREEN IS DIVERSE OR NOT?

FOR ME, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- AND MAYBE I'LL SAY QUICKLY, WHAT HAPPENS IS THERE'S USUALLY THREE ROUNDS IN AN AUDITION.

EVERYBODY CAN PLAY IN THE FIRST ROUND.

THEN THERE'S A SORT OF SEMIFINAL ROUND WHERE IT'S DOWN TO 10, 12 PEOPLE, THEN USUALLY DOWN TO FOUR OR FIVE, ALL OF THEM BEHIND SCREENS.

AND WITH A COMMITTEE OF SEVEN OR EIGHT, SOMETIMES 12 PEOPLE LISTENING BEHIND THE SCREEN.

SO NOBODY KNOWS EACH OTHER.

LET'S SAY THAT MAYBE OUT OF THAT COMMITTEE, ONE PERSON IS A RACIST, MAYBE ONE MUSICIAN IS AN A MISOGYNIST, BUT THE OTHERS ARE NOT.

AND WE'VE GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE I BELIEVE MUSICIANS ARE GOING TO BE FAIR.

THEY'RE GOING TO LISTEN AND TO SEE SOMEBODY WITHOUT A PREJUDICED EAR.

THEY'RE GOING TO PICK THE BEST MUSICIAN.

BUT BEING A MUSICIAN IN THE ORCHESTRA NOW IS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST MAIG IN THE ORCHESTRA.

IT'S ABOUT COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT THEY BRING TO THE JOB THAT PERHAPS IS NOT SEEN ON STAGE.

I KNOW WHAT AUDITIONS DID, IT WAS FRUSTRATING THAT I COULDN'T GO UP TO A PERSON PLAYING AND SAY, COULD YOU TRY THAT AGAIN BUT I'D LIKE TO CONDUCT YOU THROUGH TO IT SEE HOW WELL YOU FOLLOW ME.

SO MY SOLUTION HERE IS DO THE PRELIMINARY AUDITIONS BEHIND THE SCREEN, THE MUSIC DIRECTOR IS NOT THERE ANYWAY, AND BY THE WAY, THERE ARE ORCHESTRAS WHERE THE MUSIC DIRECTOR DOES NOT SELECT THE PEOPLE PLAYING IN THE ORCHESTRA.

IT'S BECOMING MORE AND MORE A DECISION FOR THE ORCHESTRAS THEMSELVES.

SO DO THE FIRST ROUND THAT WAY.

THEN YOU GET TO YOUR SEMIFINALS.

SCREEN COMES DOWN AND YOU HAVE IN FRONT OF YOU WHO THEY ARE, WHERE THEY STUDIED, WHERE THEY PLAYED BEFORE.

BECAUSE ANOTHER PROBLEM IS WE'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING ANOTHER FORM OF DISCRIMINATION AND THAT'S AGAINST THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE.

YOU CANNOT PUT SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN IN AN ORCHESTRA 25 YEARS UP AGAINST A KID WHO'S COMING OUT OF CONSERVATORY AT AGE 19 OR 21.

THEY CAN JUST KNOCK THE SOCKS OFF ALL THE REPERTOIRE AND THE EXPERIENCED PERSON MAYBE DOESN'T HAVE THAT SET OF CHOPS THE SAME WAY.

BUT THE EXPERIENCE FACTOR CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.

I DON'T MIND ORCHESTRAS BEING POPULATED BY SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE, BUT UNLESS THERE'S EXPERIENCE TO BALANCE IT, YOUR ORCHESTRA IT'S GOING TO GROW AND MORE AND MORE PEOPLE, BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC AND OTHER REASONS, ARE CHOOSING TO LEAVE ORCHESTRAS.

YOU'LL SEE EVEN HERE IN ST. LOUIS, I'M GOING TO GUESS THERE ARE MORE VACANCIES RIGHT NOW IN THE ORCHESTRA THAN THEY COULD HAVE ANTICIPATED A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FILL THEM.

I'D LIKE TO SEE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE COME IN AS WELL AS NEW YOUNG CROP.

>> I REMEMBER, IT'S BEEN A WHILE, HELPING LEAD THE CHARGE FOR A SYMPHONY TO BE INCLUDED IN THE ZOO MUSEUM DISTRICT.

>> YES, YEAH.

>> AND WITH MY HELP, THAT TURNED OUT LIKE -- >> I REMEMBER THAT VERY WELL.

>> AND ONE BIG SETBACK THEN WAS PEOPLE HAVE A PERCEPTION, AT LEAST THEN, THAT IT'S TOO ELITIST, THE SYMPHONY.

AND IT'S IRONIC TO ASK THAT QUESTION ON PBS, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, RATHER SYNONYMOUS WITH CLASSIC MUSIC, PARTICULARLY SOMEONE LIKE MYSELF WHO'S, I GUESS THE THREE OF US HAVE A NATIONAL MEDAL OF ARTS BETWEEN US.

BUT I'M GOING TO BE THE THIRD.

BUT HOW DO YOU -- IS THAT SOMETHING, I MEAN SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU SAY AND WHAT WE HEAR FROM THE SYMPHONY IS ABOUT THE COMMUNITY.

DO YOU THINK THAT PERCEPTION OF ELITISM IS STILL SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO BATTLE OR DO PEOPLE MORE ACCEPT THE COMMUNI ROLE?

>> I THINK THE WORD "ELITE" IS ACTUALLY NOT A NEGATIVE WORD.

I THINK WE SHOULD ALL STRIVE TO GET BETTER, SO ELEVATE OURSELVES.

THAT'S WHAT THE WORD MEANS.

SO I DON'T TAKE IT AS A NEGATIVE WORD, BUT I UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE USE IT THAT WAY.

SO I THINK THAT ST. LOUIS AND OTHER ORCHESTRAS HAVE DONE A VERY GOOD JOB, GENERALLY, OF REACHING OUT TO A BROADER AUDIENCE.

YOU REMEMBER IN MY DAYS, WHAT DID WE DO TO PUT US ON THE MAP RIGHT AWAY?

WORLD PREMIERE PERFORMANCE OF "JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR."

I NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS CROSSING OVER INTO OTHER FORM OF MUSIC BECAUSE I WAS BROUGHT UP THAT WAY, BUT THE BASIC CORE ELEMENT OF AN ORCHESTRA IS TO PRESENT MOST THE MASTER PIECES MUCH LIKE A MUSEUM HAS, BUT THEY HAVE THEIR SEPARATE COLLECTIONS OF CONTEMPORARY ART OR UNUSUAL PIECES.

THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH THAT WE CAN DO, AND THE ARTS WORLD AND THE MUSIC WORLD HAVE TO BE VERY BROAD.

IT'S THE DUKE ELLINGTON QUOTE THAT EVERYBODY LOVES.

THEY'RE ONLY TWO KINDS OF MUSIC.

GOOD MUSIC AND THE OTHER STUFF.

SO PART OF OUR JOB, I THINK, AS AN ORCHESTRA IS TO DO EXACTLY WHAT OTHER INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE ART MUSEUM, THE ZOO TO A LESSER DEGREE, KIND OF STUCK WITH THE ANIMALS AND NOT TOO MUCH ELSE, BUT THEY CAN BRING BIG STUDIES ON THE ENVIRONMENT, OTHER ISSUES OF THE DAY.

ORCHESTRAS CAN POINT PEOPLE TO OTHER KINDS OF MUSIC, BUT IN PARTICULAR, I THINK THE MAIN JOB OF AN ORCHESTRA IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS IS GOING TO BE TO REALLY WORK HARD TO DEVELOP TRUE EDUCATION IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM.

AND I THINK AS I MENTIONED WITH THE AUDITIONS, I THINK PART OF THAT JOB IS GOING TO BE TAKING THOSE PEOPLE WHO COME INTO AN ORCHESTRA AND SAY, THIS WEEK INSTEAD OF PLAYING IN THE ORCHESTRA, YOU'RE GOING TO GO TO SUCH AND SUCH SCHOOL AND YOU'RE GOING TO DEVELOP A MUSIC PROGRAM OVER THE COURSE OF A WEEK.

TO ME, THIS WHOLE IDEA OF WHAT AN ORCHESTRA CAN BE IS NO LONGER JUST ABOUT PLAYING BEETHOVEN AND STRAUSS.

IT'S ABOUT THIS ACTIVE PART IT TAKES IN THE COMMUNITY.

THE OLD -- I GUESS IT'S STILL THERE, THE COMMISSION, AND IT STILL DOES A GOOD JOB, BUT I ALSO HAS TO FOCUS ITS ATTENTION NOT JUST ON THE ARTISTS, BUT ON THE EDUCATION OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO POTENTIALLY GROW INTO THAT ARTS COMMUNITY.

ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT MOVING BACK TO ST. LOUIS IS THIS JOY OF DISCOVERY.

I'VE GO AROUND TO LITTLE PLACES, CAN BE A DELI HERE OR A SMALL ANTIQUE SHOP THERE, AND I GO IN AND SOMETIMES PEOPLE RECOGNIZE ME, SOMETIMES NOT.

BUT I TRY TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY'RE PART OF THE ENVIRONMENT OF ST. LOUIS, THEIR CONTRIBUTION IN THE COMMUNITY.

THIS IS A CITY WHERE YOU HAVE TO DISCOVER THINGS.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT THERE WERE LIKE 15 RESTAURANTS SERVING CRAB.

I HAD NO IDEA, AND I ONLY FOUND THAT OUT BY DRIVING AROUND AND SAYING, HEY, WHAT'S THIS CRAB PLACE?

AND I'LL GO IN AND TRY THEM OUT.

OR LITTLE -- I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE WE HAD A LARGE ASIAN POPULATION ON OLIVE.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WHEN I WAS HERE BEFORE.

IT WASN'T THERE BEFORE, IT TURNED OUT.

OR AS YOU GO DOWN GRAND, ALL THESE WONDERFUL ALSO BOUTIQUES AND SHOPS.

THAT'S WHAT ST. LOUIS IS ABOUT, DISCOVERY AND FINDING ALL THESE PLACES.

THAT'S MORE WITH THE REGIONAL ARTS AND THE ORCHESTRA AND MUSEUM, GETTING OUT THERE AND BEING A GROUP THAT'S TOGETHER, NOT IN COMPETITION.

THAT ZOO MUSEUM DISTRICT THING, THAT WAS TOUGH BACK THEN BECAUSE THE ORCHESTRA TRIED TO BECOME PART OF IT AND THAT DIDN'T WORK OUT VERY WELL AND THEN THEY WENT ON THEIR OWN.

THERE WAS ANOTHER THING THAT'S IMPORTANT.

THE LEADERSHIP IN THE CITY WAS DIFFERENT.

THE NAMES I'LL SAY NOW WILL ONLY BE FAMILIAR TO A COUPLE PEOPLE, BUT YOU HAD STANLEY GOODMAN, LEE JORDINE, BUSTER MAY, YOU HAD ROBERT ORCHARD.

DOWN THE LINE, ALL THESE PEOPLE, LEADERS IN THE COMMUNITY ON THE BOARDS OF -- JOE PULITZER AND SO MANY OTHERS, ELEGANT PEOPLE.

PEOPLE COMMITTED TO THE CITY.

WE NEED TO FIND THAT LEADERSHIP IN THE CURRENT CROP OF YOUNGER PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY TODAY.

GET THEM INVOLVED IN ALL THESE ASPECTS SO THAT THEY BECOME NOT JUST BUSINESS FOLKS, BUT REAL COMMUNITY ACTIVISTS, AND -- >> MAESTRO.

WELL PUT.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO INVITE YOU BACK AND PICK IT UP FROM THERE BECAUSE WE'RE FLAT OUT OF TIME.

>> IT'S GREAT THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WE WISH YOU THE BEST WITH YOUR NEW BOOK AND WE KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO BE AT POWELL HALL IN OCTOBER, STLSYMPHONY.ORG.

THANKS FOR JOINING RAY AND ME ON NEXT UP, NINE PBS.

>> YOU TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.