Thanks for coming back for overtime for off the recor with Karla Wagner, who's running a petition drive to eliminate the property tax and also take over Governor Whitmer's job, an aggressive agenda, to say the least.

With all due respect, Mrs. Wagner, you wrote in said earlier in the first part of the show that essential services would be funded under your proposal.

And that language is there.

Does it identify a income sourc where that money will come from?

Yes, it does.

So.

So every township in the state of Michigan and there's 1240 of them already received constitutional revenue sharing of the sales tax.

So my little township can and township receives a little over $1.5 million as their portion.

So it's based on population.

But then we are also asking for a 10% cut of the state income tax bucket, the alcohol, marijuana and tobacc tax buckets, because those three taxes are not accumulated into the general sales tax bucket.

They each have their own bucket.

So what we're doing is funding the counties.

Well, right now, the money that the countie receive, it's statutory, right?

It's not mandatory.

It's not constitutionally mandated that the governor give the counties money.

So if they decide on a whim that they don't want to, they don't have to.

So what we're doing is constitutionally mandating funding to the counties.

And we actually did a spreadsheet where we went through the current every every all 83 counties.

We looked at the amount of money they currently get from property tax.

We went through it and we said this is what they would get using today's dollars today sales tax, Today's state, state income tax, etc.

what they would receiv under the act, My tax proposal and probably I think there's maybe 20 not quite 20 of the 83 counties that would actually receive more money with our proposal than what they're receivin today through the property taxes that's there at the county level.

Okay.

Have you done that same analysis for school districts?

No, I have not.

Why not?

Because of time.

I just don't have I just haven't had the time to do it.

But but property taxes for the counties because, you know, people are afraid of the counties not having enough mone for their sheriff's department and this commission, those, to be honest with you, the majority of the people out there are not worried that we talked to you, ar not worried about the schools.

They're worried about police and fire and roads.

Well, that's what they're worried about.

Okay.

What do you think the impact of your proposal will be on schools and what will schools in Michigan look like after if this were enacted?

So I just want to be I just want to make sure that you understand there's a $20 billion public school aid fund in Lansing.

I understand that very well.

How much money do schools get from property taxes?

Do do you know?

Well, at the state level, less than 3 billion.

So the state, that's a.

Substantial amount of money.

Okay.

But that means that there's 17 billion other dollars look.

So so one of our representatives has written a bill to eliminate the state education tax millage off our property tax bill.

He he's in Lansing.

He works with the numbers all the time.

Why would he do?

Who is that.

Representative DeSana.

Okay.

So so but let me just finish, because that bucket in in this public school aid bucket in Lansing is $20 billion.

They want to add another 1.8 billion to it.

They are assuming that there's 1.4 kids going to public schools.

That is incorrect.

So counting the private school in the charter school kids in that number.

But where does the other $17 billion come from?

All of the other taxes you pay state income tax, sales tax, alcohol, marijuana, tobacc taxes, all of those other taxes.

The lottery.

Right.

The lottery was supposed to replace that state education tax.

I understand what it is.

I understand your argument.

Are you comfortable cutting you say 3 billion?

I think it's closer to 4 billion.

3 to $4 billion for Michigan schools.

I it's it's not.

It's I have that right here.

As of 2024 it was 2.8 2.8 billion.

Are you comfortable cuttin to it $2.8 billion from schools.

That's your number.

From public schools.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Because why has our admin grown by 73% when public school enrollment has declined by 15%?

What?

You kno what, Everybody has to cut it.

You can't keep.

Are you comfortabl with taking away someone's home when when when we don't have there's no auditing of these schools.

I want to see these schools audited.

There's no auditing of the schools?

I you know what?

We can't see it.

Where is our money going?

You don't hear where I where I live.

We just a couple of years ago passed a $2.5 million a year millage for playground equipment and community ad.

And then you know what they did?

They used money out of the sinking fund to replace playground equipment.

So where's the money going?

We want answers.

We want answers because our property.

I mean, I just want.

To point out.

Our property, our generational wealth is on the line.

Mrs. Wagner, you Mrs. Wagner, you need over 400,000 valid signatures, which means you have to get a whole lot more than getting past the board of canvassers.

How are you collecting those signatures?

Is this strictly through volunteers or are you buying some of them?

Strictly through volunteers at this point?

Strictly through volunteers.

And we're our goal is 600,00 and we have 180 days to do it.

And do you have any idea where you're at right now?

I do not.

I'm starting to sort them out by counties, but we really haven't started counting.

We've only been asking people to send in their full sheets, meaning if there's ten signatures on a page, send them in first, because as long as we have until the end of October we want them to keep filling up all of those pages we have we have over we have 100,000.

We purchased 100,000 petitions.

I would say we have a 100,000 petitions out in the field.

And if would get them all with ten signatures, that would be a million.

We're not going to get a million.

Obviously, people are going to send them in with one or two signatures on them.

But sure, you tried to get this on in 2024, didn't quite make it.

What are you doing different to get you over the hump this time?

Well, last time we only had 135 days to circulate because we kept getting sandbagged by the board of canvassers.

So by the time the they never approved our language last time, which is an optional that's an optional step is to get the 100 word summary approved.

And they were never going to do it because they didn't want us to be on the ballot in 2024 with President Trump.

So we only had about 135 days to circulate last time.

This time we started out with a much bigger army, a more well-educated army, and we had more time to prepare to get to to get materials in the hands of that army prior to our go date.

So, I mean, we're doing the best we can, but it is all volunteers.

Absolutely.

People work full time jobs.

We have time for one more from Clara.

Thank you.

So we just had an election in Michigan and we saw voters across the state approve measures to raise their property taxes to pay for schools, parks, libraries and more.

Do not see that as a sig that voters are happy to pay for services, even public services that they might not use?

No, I think it' I think it's lack of education, because in May in May, we turned down 30% of the villages in May and 50% of the bond proposals in August, there was another 25% of the villages that were turned down.

You can say that people voted yes, but I but where where we go and where we talk to people, there's multiple reasons.

Now, you're also including renters.

So there's there's this misconception among renters.

You know, Michigan is now like 39 to 40% renters.

Renters think, well, I don't pay property taxes, so of course, I will vote yes on a millage.

Of course I'll vote yes on a millage for the zoo and the museum and the library and the schools, whatever, because they don't thin it impacts them until the until their landlord raises their rent and then they go, Wait a minute why did you just raise my rent?

Well Because you just let you just raise the landlord's property tax.

Property taxes are passed through tax.

You raise your landlord's property tax by voting yes on villages guarantee he's going to raise your rent.

And then what happens?

Those renters go, I can't afford this.

So they pick up and they move and they move into different county and they leave.

The other people in the county, in the original county left to pay for the villages that they voted for.

And then they picked up and left and went somewhere else because they couldn't afford a rent that they just bumped up themselves.

It's lack of education.

Mrs. Wagner, Thank you for doing Off the Record.

I have a feeling we're goin to hear from you down the road.

Is that a fair statement?

I hope so.

Definitely.

Listen, if you have to pay for names, will you?

You know what it has.

I don' think we'll ever get the funding because this is so controversial.

And even though people give me lip service that they support it, that they like what we're doing there, too.

I mean, I have township supervisor circulating the petition.

We have firemen and policemen signing the petition all of the time.

I have county treasurers tellin me, get rid of property taxes.

Karla we're sick of dealing with people getting ready to lose their homes.

If anything for the sake of my circulators, I would love to be able to buy them a cushion because they have been busting their butts for the last two circulations cycles.

We've gained a lot more.

But their way they're they're spending their whole summer.

They're spending six months of their lives.

What does that tell you?

What that tell you when you have people so dedicated to this cause tha it's not just a matter of going and checking a little box in a voting booth.

It is people spending six months of their lives collecting signatures because they believe in this cause and they believe they want a better future for Michigan.

And it is not by continuin to raise and pay property taxes.

That is not the way to do it.

Thank you, Mrs. Wagner.

It's good to see you.

Thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you very much.

See you next week, folks.