Nice.

Communities in northern Vermont are feeling the economic effect of a strained relationship with their Canadian neighbors.

We'll speak with a reporter who spent time in the northeast Kingdom talking to residents and business owners.

Plus, we'll learn about the two urban park rangers responding to Burlington's growing number of homeless encampments.

And with Vermont's corrections commissioner stepping down today, we look at the state of the state's prison system.

All that and more ahead on Vermont this week.

From the Vermont public studio in Winooski.

This is Vermont this week, made possible in part by the Lintilhac Foundation and Milne Travel.

Here's moderator Mitch Wertlieb.

Thank you so much for joining us on Vermont this week.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

It's Friday, August 15th, and our panel today is Pete Hirschfeld from Vermont Public, Liam Elder Connors with Vermont Public as well, and Derek Bauer from Seven Days.

Thank you all so much for being here.

We're going to start off, Peter's followed with a little bit of breaking news here.

You've been talking with the Scott administration.

We know the big story that President Trump has sent some National Guard troops to Washington, D.C. he says, because there's a big crime problem there.

Apparently, he has asked the state of Vermont to send guard troops as well.

What have you learned?

There are about 800 National Guard troops in Washington, D.C., right now as part of the Trump administration's federal takeover of the police force there.

And the Department of Defense had been hoping that Vermont National Guard soldiers would be in that mix.

The Department of Defense reached out to the Scott administration recently to find out, if they would be inclined to mobilize some guard troops from Vermont to go down to D.C. for this purpose.

And I talked to the governor's chief of staff today.

He said the governor politely declined, said that he didn't see this as being an appropriate use of Vermont National Guard soldiers.

Interesting.

You know, crime in Washington, D.C.. Not necessarily what, the president has said it is there's been in decline, hasn't done, there has.

I mean, I think I was as talking with Jason Gibbs, president's chief of, governor's chief of staff.

He said, look, we think there are credible arguments on both sides.

Is there a crime problem in the nation's capital?

Yes.

You can make the case that there is, is it appropriate for the federal government to mobilize, the military for the purposes of domestic law enforcement?

That's where they disagree.

And it wasn't a, an indictment of the president's assessment of the crime situation in D.C., necessarily.

But but he said it is it is not the kind of thing that we want to begin using guard soldiers for in Vermont.

And nor do they think that that's an appropriate use for guard soldiers anywhere.

Okay.

So Vermont, National Guard soldiers will not be going to D.C.. We know that.

Now, of course, governor Scott is a Republican governor.

You said he politely declined.

We'll see if there's any retribution or fallout from that, of course.

Yeah.

I mean, I think part of the Scott administration's posture towards the Trump administration is related to keeping the target on Vermont's back as small as possible.

But this isn't the first time that the governor has turned down a request from the Pentagon to send guard troops to a federal mission.

Late last month, the Department of Defense asked Vermont to send troops to Ice facilities, to to assist with a cleric, clerical and administrative purposes and detention facilities.

The governor said no to that as well.

Okay, Pete, I want to stick with you because, this story also involves, President Trump in some ways, because you have been talking with business owners, residents in the Northeast Kingdom.

There's been a real drop off in Canadian visitors, this summer.

And a lot of this has to do with some of the rhetoric from President Trump, right?

Yeah.

I mean, the Northeast Kingdom is the most beautiful place in the world in a lot of people's books included.

And that beauty has drawn, a lot of people up to the kingdom over, over the years where, the tourism economy has become increasingly important as we see, you know, the manufacturing sector up there, agriculture sector, become less solid economic anchors.

So tourism is big in the kingdom.

And people are feeling the pinch right now.

There are far fewer Canadians coming into Vermont this year than there were last summer.

And that is due to the Canadian boycott on American travel, due to some of the President Trump's comments challenging Canada's sovereignty.

And we are seeing a lot of, not just tourism businesses, but but other businesses, reporting double digit percent decreases in revenue year over year.

Well, I was thinking about this in the context of five years ago, reporting a similar story about the drop in Canadian tourism, but that was due to the border being essentially shut down because of the Covid 19 pandemic and how stressful that was for businesses up there at the time.

Seeing the tourism plummet.

And that was with the notion that at some point the pandemic would ease.

But it's harder to know now whether or not the rhetoric is going to to ramp down in a way that Canadians might start coming back over the border.

I think the fact that it's sort of a a boycott because of the rhetoric, they could cross the border, but they're not right now because of the political situation, I would imagine is more concerning for some of the businesses up there, because who knows when it might end, like there's no pandemic that's going to ease this time.

And a lot of these business owners, I talked to people who were born in Montreal who now have businesses in Newport, for instance.

They have friends in Canada, they have family in Canada.

And they said they're not coming over anymore.

And their sense is that, this is not going to be a phenomenon where somebody says the right words and we're going to magically see a return of our Canadian friends to Vermont.

They think it's going to take a really long time to mend these wounds.

And you were saying, you know, this is hitting the kingdom especially hard because overall, Canadian, tourism to Vermont.

And I found this fascinating.

You reported this.

It's not that much, about 5% total, but most of it goes to the kingdom, right?

Yeah.

I mean, there are communities in northern Vermont where Canadians account for 30, 35% of all the tourist traffic that they see.

So, when they're not coming over, that becomes a, key demographic that a lot of people rely on.

That's just not there this year.

And of course, the summer is big, but so is leaf piece of the peeping season, which is coming up in the fall.

The numbers also indicating there's going to be a downward trend there.

Yeah.

I've talked to people, that, you know, rent Airbnbs and have lodging establishments and they say they can't remember not having at least weekends for August, September and foliage season booked.

But that's what they're looking at right now.

They've they've got empty properties.

And nobody calling up to reserve it just, it just seems and feels very strange.

And, you know what?

We're going to have to see how this plays out in the long term.

You know, other, places that are empty are some buildings in, Montpelier, the state capital.

Apparently Governor Scott wants employees to get back to work, get back to the office.

What's happening there?

So there have been calls on the governor for a long time now from, municipal leaders, notably in Montpelier, where the majority of, the Capitol complex is.

There are thousands of employees who used to be reporting to work every day who are not anymore post, the 2023 flood that took out a lot of those buildings and the governor said, last week that he's ready to bring them back.

And, that is welcome news to city officials in Montpelier.

I know of a business owner who recently announced they were closing, and they said it's because we're not getting the state employee traffic.

Some concerns, though, from folks in the state employees union.

They say there are a lot of workers that have become accustomed to this arrangement.

People are gonna have to figure out childcare, other situations.

So this is still a negotiation, right?

This is something that the administration has to work out with the union before it comes to pass.

But Governor Scott seems pretty emphatic that he wants this to happen by the fall.

I appreciate the update on that.

Derek, bro, I want to turn to you now.

You had a fascinating, feature story in seven days about, you know, it's no secret anymore that Burlington has a homelessness problem.

The entire state of Vermont does.

But it's being felt very acutely in Vermont's largest city.

You spoke with a couple of park rangers whose job it is is it wasn't meant to be their job, but they're having to deal with this a lot.

Now, what did you who were these two individuals you met and spoke with, and what did you find out from them?

Yeah, the Urban Park Ranger program in Burlington is a fairly new program, actually.

It it was, created in 2021, as part of a broader effort to, create new types of positions that could deal with lower level problems in the community that would, reduce the need for police.

And the thinking was that a large portion of this job would be things like asking people to make sure their dogs are leashed or having college students put out their campfires on the beach, that kind of stuff.

And what it's turned out to be is almost a full time job for two people.

And it could be more, responding to complaints and issues related to the, dozens and dozens of people who are camping, around the city, both in city parks and other kinds of, city park land.

So they really have this firsthand view.

I think of this, as you mentioned, what is a statewide problem, but how it is playing out at this really ground level, and they are caught between, residents who expect to have neighborhood parks that people aren't living in with the people who are actually living in those tents and have nowhere else to go.

They're the ones who have to tell them both to move.

And, as I learned, spending time with them are also trying to help find better places for them to move.

But it's really difficult work.

These, two gentlemen who have or tasked with this job, for one thing, they're not armed with, with guns or anything like that.

They're not really necessarily equipped to deal with anything that might turn violent.

And, you know, you've noted in your article there have been some situations where they felt pretty scared.

Yeah.

It's, it's they're walking into very volatile situations with people who are under extreme stress and who are resorting to various kinds of survival tactics.

The I think it was the first day I went out with the Ranger.

We checked in on an encampment.

That is really built up.

It's more of a compound with with a two level structure in the woods right down on the waterfront.

And, those the folks living there had a dog that, is, been biting people, including the ranger has been bitten by the dog.

And as soon as we walked up the path, the dog charged us.

And he had to pull out his pepper spray and, spray the ground in front of the dog so that we could even get into to the campsite.

That's just one example of of what they're dealing with.

But I think it's not just the danger.

I mean, the what I was, really struck by was how, humane the Rangers, are in their approach to the work.

You know, Neil Preston, the lead ranger.

He's he's trying to make sure the people who are living in these tents are safe, too.

And actually, I think that's one of the misconceptions is that, certainly there are a host of problematic things that having people who are so desperate in the middle of a city can, can bring to the broader community.

But what he sees and what he told me is that often the biggest danger is to the people who are who are living in these encampments, themselves.

Yeah.

I mean, Derek's piece is it's a remarkable piece of reporting.

It's a riveting read.

So if you haven't read it, read it.

But what was illuminating for me, as somebody who covers this issue at the policy level in the state House, was the complexity of the day to day interactions and tensions and dilemmas that come up with managing, people that are living outside on a day to day basis.

That, the, the conversations in Montpelier can sometimes feel divorced from that reality.

So it was just fascinating to get those kinds of insights like, here's what this actually looks like on the ground.

And I think it really speaks to how, at least in Burlington especially, we've seen like the response is about managing this explosion in the number of people that are living outside.

I don't have the stat in front of me, but the number of people who are living outside has gone up tremendously.

And so it's become a question of not necessarily, can we get everyone into housing, but can we keep people alive?

Which is what we saw when we were reporting earlier this year, Derek, about, how many people in Vermont have died while homeless and the city of Burlington was driving a bus around to pick people up on the coldest night to take them to a warming shelter, because that was the best available option.

I just feel like this is also like a part of that.

The response now?

Yeah.

You know, Neil had told me that, he he stops by City Hall Park in Burlington, which is this tiny park right next to the mayor's office and city hall.

And even at seven in the morning, there are already 30 to 40 people there every day, some sleeping without a tent, because the city is really strict about tents there.

But, there's drug deals going on.

There's all sorts of things happening in this in the heart of the city at 7:00 am and there's.

And he told me it feels like a humanitarian crisis in the city.

And I thought he was being a bit hyperbolic at first, but having spent the last couple of weeks with him, it's it's not.

I mean, this, the situation, on the ground is, is pretty dire for, for a lot of people.

You mentioned the mayor of Burlington.

You know, she has been a little bit critical of the state response to this.

I think the state has also been a little bit critical of the mayor's, you know, response to this.

What what is the push and pull there?

Yeah.

I mean, the the mayor has, says that this is bigger than what Burlington can be expected to address.

I mean, she has been laying, city employees off over the last year to, to solve, to close and, nearly $10 million budget gap.

So, so she says the city is not equipped on this.

And we need partnership between the state and municipalities around Vermont.

To deal with this, this problem.

You know, she says she she also criticized the governor for not coming to Burlington to to see the urban reserve, to see these park spaces that the Urban Rangers patrol as well.

The governor on the other hand, he, you know, he did not, grant me an interview, but, his, spokesperson, essentially said that Burlington has made this mess itself as a result of its, progressive policies around the community policing and public safety, decisions, and such.

And so what we're seeing right now, and I think became evident in the story, is that there is not the kind of broad cooperation that is probably needed to to address the problem at the scale, that that currently exists.

And you know what's quite amazing in your article?

And Pete's right, everybody should read this.

Is that because of what you were just talking about there?

You know, state officials blaming each other, these two gentlemen that you spoke with are tasked with dealing with this themselves, coming up with their own creative solutions.

There's a moment where one of these gentlemen.

I'm not sure which one it was.

You know, there was a guy with a tent.

He had to move the tent, people complaining about it, and he said, look, I'm not going to I'm not going to cite you.

I'm not going to bring the police.

But can you move the tent to just where people can't see it, you know, go behind that tree or something like that?

That's the kind of thing that they're having to do.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

And, I was really startled when I started seeing that because it's the only option the state or the city has devised this somewhat informal policy of allowing of being more lenient toward, encampments that are not in neighborhood parks, places like along the waterfront in the urban reserve, by the by the bike path.

But even that space is full.

There are dozens of people living in there, and there is a lot of dangerous stuff that happens down there, too.

And so people like this man, his name is Stephen, who's older is 61.

He has a bad back and PTSD.

Neil told me that he doesn't feel comfortable, sending people who are so vulnerable into the into these few spaces that the city can be more lenient.

And so there is nowhere else to go.

And that's resulted in over and over again, he is simply telling people, move your tent, you know, move your tent across the park, and we'll deal with it, you know, next week.

And, it's it's it's a longer game that he has to play to try to build some trust with people and to just buy time, because there are no quick answers for the people who are on the streets right now.

Vermont used to have, you know, about 150 people who were chronically homeless, and that number is over 900 now, people who are chronically homeless, take a lot more time and effort and resources to get to get housed.

I really appreciate your reporting on this.

Liam, elder Connors, I want to turn to you now because as we mentioned at the top of the show today, today is the day that Nick DML is stepping down as Vermont's, department, head of the commissioner.

Sorry, the commissioner of the Department of Corrections.

Really interesting story.

I did not know he was with the CIA for many years before he took this job.

For one thing.

But he came on during a time when the pandemic was, I guess, the second winter of the pandemic, dealing with a tough situation.

What is he how does he feel about the state of the prisons now that he's stepping down?

Well, he says he thinks it's stabilized.

And he came on, like you said, in the midst of the pandemic.

Also on the heels of an investigation, by seven days that found, sexual misconduct and allegations of retaliation against staff at the women's prison who spoke up about problems there and had to reform sort of a culture, at doc as well.

And then a staffing shortage among corrections officers that was getting really bad when demos started as well.

And so he's had all of these crises that have been going on while he's been commissioner, and he thinks that one of his approaches has been to focus on the people that are in the prisons and to focus on the people that are working there at the prisons and to try to stabilize the system.

And, you know, by his view, he thinks he's done a decent job.

And I've talked with others, including the defender general, who says that he thinks demo was the most productive commissioner that he's seen in his almost 25 years as defender general, which is a pretty striking thing since the defender general's office is often at odds with the Department of Corrections over the treatment of people within the system, though the union, has been much more critical and you know this well from covering, the staffing situation there that.

Yeah.

I don't think demo doing enough.

Yeah.

No.

And they are there's a staffing crisis and in the Department of Corrections, Nick demo will tell you there's a staffing crisis in the Department of Corrections.

The union has some very specific, ways that I think that state could go about resolving that crisis.

First and foremost, paying people more money right now, Daniel does not think that Vermont can spend its way out of this problem.

He's taking a different approach.

And yeah, it's created some real friction between him and union officials.

Some of the things, though, that he got credit for.

Liam.

Had to do things like increasing visitation rights, or getting, you know, more prisoners being able to see their kids better.

There was a new medical, contractor that came on, and he was given some high marks for dealing with that.

And because, as you were saying, there were some serious health problems in the prisons, right?

Yeah.

There was an uptick in deaths in Vermont prisons for about two years.

And some of an allegations that the health care provider at the time, because the state contracts out its health care, to a private company, that they weren't doing enough.

And when that contract expired, he moved it to another, medical contractor.

And that, some state representatives have said he's done a better job of getting the the central office at Doc to kind of keep an eye on the, the medical providers and make sure that they're providing the level of care that he says Vermonters expect.

We'll have to see what happens in the prison system next.

Jon Murad will be taking over today, and that's the former Burlington police chief.

So I'm kind of curious to see Derek.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on you.

You've covered demo for a lot for this whole time and.

Well, yeah, yeah, it certainly seems like there has been some incremental progress in the prisons, but these are really consequential problems that face the prisons around health.

Adequate health care and staffing have not been resolved.

And I think that's, the that will now shift to, to Murad, who, has, you know, at least in Burlington, has had a bit of a more accountability oriented approach, to his leadership.

I'm not sure how that's going to translate to, to leading the, the prison system right now.

I'm eager to see it.

I think you can make a case that it is the toughest job in state government.

I mean, your life is a series of crisis interventions when you're managing prison environments.

And, yeah, I don't envy anybody that takes on that role.

And, Liam, we're looking at the population levels in the prisons getting back to pre-pandemic levels, right?

Yeah.

I mean, and that is largely due to a higher number of people who are being detained pretrial.

So people who have not actually been convicted of a crime, which was something we've been seeing for a couple of years, actually, since as the pandemic has eased.

Part of that's due to the court backlog.

Cases aren't moving through very quickly, so more people are just waiting for their day in court.

And that's a real problem because in some cases, I've reported people have sat in prison longer than what they ultimately the the sentence that they would ultimately serve if they were convicted of the crime.

Oh, wow.

So that's pretty striking.

That can be a pretty severe consequence where if you end up a jury says, you know, you're convicted of a misdemeanor and you've spent longer than the amount of time that you would have served if you've just been convicted, you know, that's a real problem that defense attorneys and civil liberties advocates are flagging.

So there's staffing issues that are contributing to that as well.

I mean, there are people that are spending weeks, sometimes months incarcerated pretrial, because nobody got the paperwork for when they were supposed to report to court.

So, yeah, there's so many opportunities in that system for things to get lost in the shuffle.

Yeah.

I wonder if that's some of the criticism to, the head of the State Employees Association that you wrote, about this.

You know, the there was a communication problem.

I think he was saying with a lot of this would double if he was going to be critical of anything.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that has to do with talking about how to solve the staffing crisis specifically and talking and being, forthright about the situation and not just sort of saying that everything was good or that they were making progress, like being more honest about the situation.

Was a lot of the criticism.

Tough job, no question.

So, as you said, John, you're right.

In the interim, is there going to be a national search for, replacement?

How are they going about that?

I think John Muir is going to be interim for now.

There haven't been any another any more steps announced, as far as I know.

So we'll we'll see from there.

I think John Muir is going to be in that position for, for the foreseeable future though.

Okay.

Want to know briefly, the passing of Rich Tarrant, who, of course, was a well known college athlete in Vermont, started Saint Michael's College, also a philanthropist, gave a lot of money to Vermont.

He passed away at the age of 83.

And finally, I want to end on, the end of the lake monster season.

The Vermont Lake monsters are out of the playoffs.

They did make it to the first round.

They were beaten by the new bees in a two out of three series.

But a successful season for the Lake Monsters, you know, since they joined the Futures League in 2021, they have never missed the playoffs.

And they made it again this year.

So they didn't get very far.

But I do want to give them, some props for for getting that far.

And, hopefully I'll get to see a Lake Monsters game next year.

I don't know if you guys saw any this year, but I just didn't make it out there this year.

We'll get to it next week.

I want to thank our panel so much, Pete Hirschfeld from Vermont Public, Liam Elder Connors with Vermont Public and Derek Bauer from Seven Days.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

Thank you so much for watching.

Will join you again next week on Vermont.

This week.