>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," AFGHANISTAN HAS FALLEN.

AND WITH IT, CONFIDENCE IN U.S.

LEADERSHIP, AND WHETHER THE MILITARY WILL KEEP ITS PROMISE TO PROTECT THE LOCAL ALLIES WHO SERVED ALONGSIDE AMERICAN TROOPS.

ONE SUCH PAIR, STATE SENATOR, AND ARMY VETERAN JOHN VELIS AND HIS AFGHAN TRANSLATOR, ALIX-- JOIN ME ON THE EVENTS OF THE PAST FEW DAYS, AND THE LEGACY OF AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR.

THEN, LATER, AS THE DELTA WAVE SWELLS IN MASSACHUSETTS, THE STATE IS REFUSING TO IMPOSE ANY NEW SAFETY MEASURES.

SO, LOCAL BUSINESSES ARE ON THEIR OWN, INCLUDING CITY WINERY, WHOSE FOUNDER JOINS ME, ALONG WITH AN INFECTIOUS DISEASES DOCTOR FROM BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER.

AND FINALLY, ONE SILVER LINING OF COVID CHANGES: THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE RESTAURANTS MORE ACCESSIBLE.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> Braude: WHEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DECIDED TO PULL THE REMAINING U.S.

TROOPS FROM AFGHANISTAN AFTER NEARLY 20 YEARS, THEY KNEW THINGS WOULD GET UGLY, BUT CLEARLY, THEY UNDERESTIMATED HOW QUICKLY IT WOULD ALL UNRAVEL.

>> (translated): DEATH TO AMERICA!

DEATH TO AMERICA!

DEATH TO AMERICA!

>> Braude: THOSE ARE TALIBAN FIGHTERS CHANTING "DEATH TO AMERICA" OUTSIDE THE U.S. EMBASSY IN AFGHANISTAN, WHERE THEY NOW HAVE FULL CONTROL AFTER TAKING OVER THE CAPITAL CITY OF KABUL WITHOUT A FIGHT YESTERDAY, AFTER THE PRESIDENT FLED THE COUNTRY.

AND THE HOURS SINCE HAVE BEEN CHAOS, WITH SOME CALLING IT "BIDEN'S SAIGON," AS U.S. DIPLOMATS AND THEIR FAMILIES, SCRAMBLE TO GET OUT-- ALONGSIDE AFGHAN CIVILIANS SO DESPERATE, SOME TRIED TO HOLD ONTO U.S.

PLANES AS THEY TOOK OFF, WITH AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE REPORTEDLY DYING AFTER FALLING FROM ONE OF THE AIRCRAFT.

THIS AFTERNOON, BIDEN SAID, DESPITE THE "GUT WRENCHING" SCENES PLAYING OUT, HE STANDS "SQUARELY BEHIND" HIS DECISION TO WITHDRAW FROM THE COUNTRY.

>> I'VE ARGUED FOR MANY YEARS THAT OUR MISSION SHOULD BE NARROWLY FOCUSED ON COUNTERTERRORISM NOT NATION BUILDING.

>> Braude: BUT AROUND THE WORLD, FROM THE U.S. TO THE U.N., MANY ARE QUESTIONING WHAT THE PAST TWO DECADES OF AMERICANS IN AFGHANISTAN ACCOMPLISHED BEYOND A DEATH TOLL THAT, AT LAST COUNT, STOOD AT MORE THAN 2,400 U.S.

TROOPS, 5,500-PLUS CONTRACTORS, ALLIED TROOPS, AID WORKERS AND JOURNALISTS, MORE THAN 66,000 AFGHAN FORCES, AND NEARLY 43,000 CIVILIANS-- AND ALL FOR WHAT?

I'M JOINED BY TWO MEN WHO SERVED IN THE COUNTRY FOR YEARS, JUST TO SEE IT FALL IN A MATTER OF WEEKS: JOHN VELIS, A BRONZE STAR ARMY VETERAN, NOW A STATE WHO SERVED TWO TOURS IN AFGHANISTAN, ON THE NATO'S ROLE IN AFGHANISTAN, SENATOR FROM WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS; AND HIS FORMER TRANSLATOR, ALIX, WHO WAS ABLE TO COME TO THE U.S.

IN 2015.

OBVIOUSLY, AT HIS REQUEST, WE HAVE HIDDEN HIS IDENTITY.

ALIX THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AS WELL.

SENATOR VELIS, IF I CAN -- THANK YOU.

IF I CAN START WITH YOU, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT YOU SAW THE LAST TWO DAYS AND TO WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAD TO SAY THIS AFTERNOON?

>> OH, IT WAS GUT WRENCHING.

THE PHOTOS THAT YOU JUST DISPLAID FROM THE EMBASSY, THREE YEARS AGO ALMOST TO THE YEAR, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE EMBASSY, IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE IN KABUL, TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS TO HAVE SOME TYPE OF A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT TO THIS 20 YEAR OLD CONFLICT.

SO GUT WRENCHING, HEART WRENCHING.

BUT MOST OF ALL, JUST FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE LEFT BEHIND RIGHT NOW, I GIST FEEL -- JUST FEEL DEVASTATED FOR THEM.

>> Braude: WHEN I LISTENED TO THE PRESIDENT THIS AFTERNOON I THOUGHT HE WAS ADDRESSING THE WRONG ISSUE.

HE KEPT SAYING FOR THOSE WHO SAY WE SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN AFGHANISTAN, THE VAST MAJORITY OF LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD AND PEOPLE IN AMERICA NEVER SAID WE SHOULD STAY IN AFGHANISTAN.

THEY'RE NOT QUESTIONING THAT THE DECISION, THEY'RE QUESTIONING THE EXECUTION OF THE DPAWRTD, WHICHDEPARTURE, WHICH IT SEEMED TO ME THE PRESIDENT BARELY ADDRESSED.

DO YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT REACTION?

>> YOU MAY BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T, ANSWER THIS ON MY CAPACITY AS A SENATOR AND PRIVATE CITIZEN, IT WAS LESS OF A QUESTION, SHOULD WE WITHDRAW, PRETTY MUCH ACROSS THE BOARD THE CONSENSUS WAS, WE HAVE BEEN THERE FOR TWO DECADES, IT WAS MORE HOW IT WAS DONE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHTING SEASON.

WE HAD A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND THE TALIBAN, AND NOTICEABLY ABSENT FROM THAT AGREEMENT IS THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

THINGS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE OVER THE FAST TWO DECADES THAT YOU COULD POINT TO HAVE GOTTEN US TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY, I WHOLLY AGREE THAT IT SHOULDN'T BEING, SHOULD WE DO IT BUT HOW WE HAVE DONE IT.

>> Braude: ALIX, YOU HAVE ASKED TO HIDE YOUR IDENTITY.

COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOUR IDENTITY WAS KNOWN?

>> BECAUSE THE PRESS IS -- AS I WAIT FOR INTERPRETER TO BRING THEM OVER TO UNITED STATES, WAS FOR THE PEOPLE THEY JUST SERVE WITH ALONGSIDE WITH THE FORCES AND UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES BUT THE CULTURE BACK IN AFGHANISTAN IS DIFFERENT FROM HERE.

THE PEOPLE ARE LEAVING UNDER THE ONE RULE, THE WHOLE FAMILY WITH THEIR PARENTS UNTIL THEIR PARENTS ARE ALIVE SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE BROTHERS AND THE SISTERS AND THE WHOLE FAMILY IS LIKE THE PERSON'S WIFE AND CHILDREN ARE NOT IN THAT DANGER AS THE PERSON'S BROTHERS AND SISTER AND DAD IS IN DANGER.

SO MY WHOLE FAMILY IS BACK THERE RIGHT NOW.

SO FOR THEIR SAFETY.

JND UNDERSTOOD, ALIX.

WHEN YOU SAW AND WITNESSED THE SCENES AT THE AIRPORT TODAY, AND YOU SAW THAT OUR COMMITMENT AS A COUNTRY TO PEOPLE WHO MADE SACRIFICES LIKE DO YOU, WAS NOT BEING HONORED AT LEAST IN TIMELY FASHION, LEADING TO SOME CATASTROPHIC CONSEQUENCES WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION, ALIX?

>> EVERYTHING BESIDE AS A HUMAN TO SEE ANOTHER HUMAN IS HANGING WITH THE AIRPLANE, AND BEGGING FOR HIS LIFE, AND DIED, IT'S A HUMAN TRAGEDY.

IT MADE ME VERY UPSET.

>> Braude: AND IF YOU WERE APPROACHED ALIX STAYING WITH YOU FOR ONE SECOND BY SOMEONE IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, WHERE THE UNITED STATES HAD INVOLVEMENT, IN THE FUTURE, AND WAS CONTEMPLATING THINKING OF DOING WHAT YOU DID, SERVE AS AN INTERPRETER, AND HE OR SHE WAS GIVEN A PROMISE FROM THE UNITED STATES THAT THEY WOULD BE PROTECT THED, WOULD YOU TELL THEM THEY COULD TRUST THE UNITED STATES TO HONOR ITS PROMISE?

>> TO BE HONEST, I DON'T THINK THEY WILL TRUST THE PEOPLE.

AND EVEN NOT ONLY THOSE PEOPLE THAT LIKE MR. JOHN VELIS, HE WENT OVER THERE TO BRING SOME CHANGES TO THE COUNTRY.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> AND OTHER PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, GIVE THE TAXES, THE MONEY WENT TOWARD THEIR INVESTMENT, IT'S LIKE SIMPLY GIVE UP.

>> Braude: UH-HUH.

YOU KNOW SENATOR -- I'M SORRY.

GO AHEAD ALIX.

>> PEOPLE WHO GIVE THE SACRIFICE OF THE UNITED STATES, AND ALL THOSE MONEYS THAT EVERYTHING WAS BUILT AND EVERYTHING WAS GOING AT THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT IT WAS JUST LIKE GIVE UP.

>> Braude: SENATOR IF I CAN RETURN TO YOU FOR A SECOND, HERE IS PRESIDENT BIDEN GIVING A PRESS CONFERENCE ON JULY 8th ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS.

HERE IS THE PRESIDENT.

>> IS THE TALIBAN TAKEOVER OF AFGHANISTAN NOW INEVITABLE?

>> NO, IT IS NOT.

THE QUESTION NO NOW IS WHERE DO THEY GO FROM HERE.

THAT, THE JURY IS STILL OUT BUT THE LIKELIHOOD THERE IS GOING TO BE THE TALIBAN OVERRUNNING EVERYTHING AND OWNING THE COUNTRY IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

>> Braude: OTHAT WAS THE PRESIDENT A LITTLE MORE THAN A MONTH AGO, SENATOR AND YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN THE SECRETARY OF STATE ON TELEVISION SHOW AFTER TELEVISION SHOW REJECTING THE COMPARISON BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES LEAVING SAIGON AND US LEAVING KABUL WHICH TO ME AS A LAYPERSON SEEMED PAINFULLY SIMILAR.

GETTING BACK TO THE TRUST ISSUE I JUST BROACHED WITH ALIX, OUR ALLIES, SHOULD THEY TRUST THE JUDGMENT OF THE AMERICAN LEADERSHIP?

>> JURY'S OUT ON THAT JIM.

JUST IN THE THE BREAK, WAITING TO COME ON THE SHOW I GOT ANOTHER CALL FROM AN AFGHAN LING WISCONSIN WHO IS STILL OVER THERE THAT I WORKED WITH IN AFGHANISTAN WHO SAID THE TALIBAN WERE GOING DOOR TO DOOR IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND HE SAID, I'VE BEEN LEFT BEHIND.

AND I DON'T HAVE A RESPONSE FOR THAT RIGHT NOW.

AND THAT REALLY PAINS ME.

IT'S HEART WRENCHING, AGAIN.

SO I THINK THIS HAS RAMIFICATIONS, NOT ONLY FOR AFGHANISTAN, BUT AS WE MOVE FORWARD I THINK IT HAS RAMIFICATIONS FOR ANY OTHER POTENTIAL CONFLICT WE MAY FIND OURSELVES, TRUST WITH ALLIES, RELATIONSHIPS THAT QUITE FRANKLY HAVE BEEN DECIMATED THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS.

WE NEED TO REBUILD THOSE AND A BIG PART OF THAT IS TRUST AMONGST OUR ALLIES WHEN PEOPLE LIKE ALIX AND THE GENTLEMAN I SPOKE TO TODAY ARE WILLING TO DIE FOR US.

BECAUSE MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, WHEN WE WOULD GO ON 72nd PATROLS WITH ALIX AND OTHER LING WISCONSINS, WE WOULD BE HALF JOKING TO BE CANDID WITH YOU, WE DON'T WANT TO WALK NEXT TO THE LING WISCONSIN BECAUSE WE COULD SEE THE WAY THE AFGHANS AND LIKE MANY INSURGENTS LOOKED AT THEM WHEN WITH THEYING WALKED BY BECAUSE THEY HATED US, AS FOREIGN OPPRESSORS, THEY REALLY HATED THE LING WISCONSINS AS SELLOUTS TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

ON SO MANY LEVELS, MORALLY SOCIALLY WE NEED TO GET THEM OUT OF THERE WHATEVER THE CONSEQUENCES MAY BE THEY NEED TO GET OUT OF THE COUPLE AND THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN YESTERDAY.

>> Braude: SENATOR, STAYING WITH YOU IF I CAN, THE TALIBAN IN THE LAST 24 HOURS PARTICULARLY SINCE THEY TOOK KABUL HAVE TRIED TO PROJECT AN IMAGE OF A KINDER AND GENTLER ENTITY THAN THE TALIBAN THAT WE OUT OFFED 20 PLUS -- OUSTED 20 YEARS AGO.

THEY SAID WOMEN WOULD HAVE RIGHTS WHICH THEY DID NOT HAVE UNDER THE TALIBAN BEFORE, THEY SAID THEY HAD NO INTENTION OF PERPETRATING ANY VIOLENCE.

ARE THEY TO BE BELIEVED, BASED ON THEIR HISTORY SENATOR?

>> THE TALIBAN HAS MORE THAN A 20 YEAR HISTORY EVER SINCE THEY CAME INTO POWER IN 1996 OF SAYING ONE THING AND DOING SOMETHING ELSE.

PEOPLE THAT I'VE SPOKEN TO IN AFGHANISTAN, THE LING WISCONSIN THAT I SPOKE TO HAD JUST SAID -- LINGUIST THAT I SAID, SAID THEY HAVE BEEN EXECUTED WORKING WITH THEIR AFFILIATION.

I NEVER HOPED MORE IN MY LIFE TO BE WRONG.

MAYBE THEY'LL WELCOME THE WORLD IN THERE AND TRY TO BE A WORLD PARTNER BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH.

>> Braude: ALIX, RAZI AJAN IS A WOMAN WHO RETURNED TO AFGHANISTAN TO BUILD A WONDERFUL AND BEAUTIFUL SCHOOL FOR GIRLS THERE.

SHE WAS WITH ME ON THIS SHOW LAST WEEK, AND I ASKED HER THOUGHTS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF GIRLS AND WOMEN, IF THE TALIBAN WERE TO TAKE OVER, EVEN THOUGH NO ONE IN THAT CONVERSATION ASSUMED TO BE AS SWIFT AS THIS, THIS IS WHAT RAZI AJAN HAD TO SAY TO ME PLEASE LISTEN.

>> I THINK THEY WILL NOT DO WHAT THEY DID 20 YEARS AGO TO THE WOMAN, BECAUSE THE WOMAN WON'T STAND FOR THAT, AND I THINK THAT IS THE GREATEST DIFFERENCE.

THE WOMEN-- THEY HAVE A VOICE.

AND THE REASON THAT THEY ARE NOT RULING RIGHT NOW IS, THAT THERE ARE SOME POWERFUL WOMEN WHO ARE STANDING FOR THE RIGHT OF WOMAN.

OIS.

>> Braude: ARE YOU AS HOPEFUL AS RAZI AJAN IS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF WOMEN AND GIRLS IN YOUR COUNTRY OF AFGHANISTAN?

>> LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, THIS IS -- THERE WAS A PIECE NEGOTIATION WAS GOING ON LIKE THE MAN SAID ABOUT THEY WILL LET THE WOMEN TO GIVE THEM FREEDOM BECAUSE THEY ARE STRONG WOMEN AND WOMEN HAVE A VOICE.

THEY GOT CONTROL OF AFGHANISTAN BUT POWER INSTEAD OF CHOOSING THE PEACE NEGOTIATION AND COME ALONGSIDE WITH THE GOVERNMENT THEY USE THEIR POWER AGAINST THE THE 300,000 ARMED FORCES AND ALL THOSE MEN.

I DON'T THINK THE WOMEN WOULD RAISE THE VOICE, BUT I HOPE, I HOPE THEY WILL GIVE A CHANCE OF THE WOMEN TO -- WOMEN THAT THEY STRUGGLE FOR YEARS IN THE HEART WHERE THERE IS RAIN AND POOR FAMILY ECONOMICAL SITUATION WENT TO THE SCHOOL FOR 12 YEARS AND AFTER THAT THEY WENT ANY WORSE IT IS AND THEY HAD A HOPE THAT PEOPLE, THE GOALS THAT I KNOW PERSONALLY AND SAW THEM NIGHTS AND DAYS, WERE STUDYING, AND THEY RECENTLY GRADUATED OR THEY'RE ABOUT TO GRADUATE, AND ALL THEIR HOPES OF THE LIFE WILL BE TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM.

FROM MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF GIRLS.

IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> Braude: SENATOR WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT.

ARE YOU MORE OPTIMISTIC OF THE FUTURE OF ALL WOMEN AND GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN?

>> JIM ONE OF THE FIRST THING I WAS OVER THERE, SOME OF MY PRED SAYSORS TOLD ME ABOUT A YOUNG GIRL WHO WAS BRUTALLY RAPED BY SEVERAL VILLAGERS IN A PARTICULAR VILLAGE.

AND A GROUP MET TO DETERMINE THE FATE OF THIS YOUNG GIRL AND THIS COLLECTIVE WISDOM AND JUDGMENT OF WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO WITH THIS YOUNG GIRL WHO HAD BEEN BRUTALLY RAPED AND ALMOST KILLED WAS THEY DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO KILL HER AS AN HONOR KILLING AS A WAY TO PRESERVE HER FAMILY'S REPUTATION.

THAT IS THE TALIBAN THAT WE WITNESSED.

THAT IS THE SHADOW COURTS.

THE CURRENT HEAD OF THE TALIBAN, THE CURRENT HEAD OF THE TALIBAN IS A FORMER TOP JUDGE OF THE TALIBAN SHADOW COURTS.

I HOPE I AM WRONG.

I HOPE THAT THEY HAVE CHANGED.

BUT I'VE SEEN NOTHING TO INDICATE AND BE HOPEFUL RIGHT NOW THAT IT IS GOING TO.

>> Braude: HOPE YOU'RE WRONG TOO, SENATOR AND PUBLIX BOTH APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE IN AFGHANISTAN, AND YOUR WILLINGNESS TO JOIN WITH ME TONIGHT.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: DESPITE THE CDC DECLARING YESTERDAY THAT EVERY COUNTY IN MASSACHUSETTS HAS HIGH OR SUBSTANTIAL COVID TRANSMISSION RATES, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER STILL ISN'T ON BOARD WITH ANY KIND OF WIDESPREAD VACCINE MANDATE.

AND IN BOSTON, WHILE ACTING MAYOR KIM JANEY ANNOUNCED LAST WEEK THAT CITY WORKERS WILL NEED TO BE VACCINATED BY MID-OCTOBER OR UNDERGO WEEKLY TESTING, SHE'S RESISTING THE IDEA OF REQUIRING PROOF OF VACCINES AT PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENTS-- LIKE THE KIND NEW YORK STARTED MANDATING TODAY IN MANY INDOOR PLACES.

MEANING ONCE AGAIN, IT'S UP TO LOCAL BUSINESSES IN MASSACHUSETTS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

A CHALLENGE EVEN MORE FRAUGHT IN SPACES MEANT FOR LARGER CROWDS.

SO HOW ARE CONCERT HALLS, MUSIC VENUES, AND OTHER EVENT SPACES NAVIGATING THE LATEST SURGE?

AND WHAT DOES THE SCIENCE SAY ABOUT PUBLIC GATHERINGS AT THIS POINT?

JOINING ME ARE MICHAEL DORF, FOUNDER AND C.E.O.

OF CITY WINERY, A RESTAURANT AND MUSIC VENUE WHICH NOW REQUIRES PROOF OF VACCINATION OR A NEGATIVE COVID TEST FOR ENTRY; AND DR. SABRINA ASSOUMOU, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND AN INFECTIOUS DISEASES ATTENDING PHYSICIAN AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER.

DOCTOR, MICHAEL THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE, APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

MICHAEL HOW DID YOU DECIDE ON THESE PROTOCOLS?

>> WE STARTED DOING IT IN NEW YORK IN APRIL.

PROBABLY THE FIRST RESTAURANT AND MUSIC VENUE IN NEW YORK, IT JUST SEEMED OBVIOUS OUR JOB IN THE HOSPITALITY BUSINESS REALLY IS TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL AS COMFORTABLE AS POSSIBLE.

AND AS AIR CONDITIONING AND LIGHTING AND SAFE EGRESS AND SPRINKLER SYSTEMS GIVEN WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD OF VACCINE AND TESTING WAS SOMETHING WE NEEDED TO DO, WEARING MASKS, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, AND WE STARTED IN NEW YORK, WE DIDN'T GET THAT MUCH PUSH-BACK.

IN FACT WE GOT A VERY I GUESS OUR AUDIENCE IS A LITTLE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN THE AVERAGE BEAR BUT WAS VERY APPRECIATIVE OF CREATING A SAFE ENVIRONMENT.

AND WE GOT USED TO IT.

NOW IT'S A LITTLE EASIER FOR US BECAUSE WE'RE USED TO LOOKING FOR A TICKET WHEN SOMEONE COMES IN, ASKING FOR AN I.D.

TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE OVER 21 TO DRINK.

SO WE HAVE SECURITY.

WE HAVE A CHECK.

SO ADDING THIS LAYER WASN'T VERY DIFFICULT.

IT'S GOTTEN POLITICAL -- >> Braude: BY THE WAY -- >> WHAT?

>> Braude: WE THINK WE'RE PRETTY SMART UP HERE IN BOSTON TOO.ABOUT WHEYS THE REACTION OF YOUR CUSTOMERS?

I HAD LIVINGSTON TAYLOR ON THE OTHER NIGHT WHO WAS ABOUT TO PERFORM.

WHAT IS THE REACTION QUICKLY IF YOU CAN OF CUSTOMERS IN BOSTON, HAVE THEY BEEN AS ACCEPTING?

>> YES, THEY'RE SMART UP THERE, TOO.

>> Braude: (LAUGHING) THANK YOU.

>> SOMETIMES TOO SMART IN BOSTON BECAUSE THEN THERE'S SOME CEREBRAL ISSUES OF FREEDOM THAT GETS A LITTLE MESSY BUT FOR THE MOST PARTLY, OUR NORTHERN CITY WINERY LOCATIONS HAVE ALL BEEN VERY ACCEPTING OF OUR NEW POLICY.

>> Braude: GOOD.

DR. ASSOUMOU, NEW YORK CITY AFTER ARE OTHERS TOOK THE LEAD DID DECIDE THROUGH THE MAYOR THERE, MOST INDOOR VENUES THERE, YOU HAVE TO SHOW PROOF OF VACCINATION.

NEITHER THE MAYOR OF BOSTON NOR THE GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS THINKS THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

WHO'S RIGHT?

WHICH IS A SAFER SETTING?

WHAT MAYOR DeBLASIO IS SUGGESTING OR WHAT JANEY AND BAKER ARE EMBRACING HERE?

>> THIS IS AN INTERESTING DEBATE AND IT'S BEEN INTERESTING TO SEE HOW DIFFERENT LOCAL ADVERTISES ARE DOING.

OUR NUMBER ONE SOLUTION TO GET TO THE NEW NORMAL IS VACCINATING AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.

IN THE BEGINNING WE'VE TRIED TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE, GIVE INCENTIVES BUT I THINK WE'RE GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE REALLY TRYING TO USE SOME MANDATES IN CERTAIN SETTINGS IS GOING TO BE THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO GET THE LAST FEW PEOPLE, IF LAST GROUP TO GET VACCINATED.

BUT THE OTHER THING THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT IS WE DON'T JUST WANT TO DO MANDATES.

WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS PAIR THE MANDATES WITH ACCESSING.

BY ACCESS I DON'T JUST MEAN MAKING IT AVAILABLE AT CVS.

MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE THE TIME OFF TO GET VACCINATED BUT IF THEY HAVE SIDE EFFECTS THEY KNOW THEY WILL GET PAID LEAVE.

ALL THOSE MEASURES ARE GOING TO BE IMPORTANT.

AND ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING IS ACCESS TO INFORMATION.

THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH MISINFORMATION AND UNFORTUNATELY I WAS IN CLINIC THIS MORNING, TRYING TO TALK TO AS MANY PATIENTS AS POSSIBLE, AND THERE IS STILL SO MUCH MISINFORMATION OUT THERE.

WE HAVE TO ASK ACCESS TO INFORMATION SO WE GET EVERYONE COMFORTABLE GETTING VACCINATED.

>> Braude: IT SEEMS TO ME DOCTOR IN ADDITION TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH IMPLICATION AND GETTING INFORMATION, IT SEEMS THE ME THAT AN INCENTIVE TO GET VACCINATED IS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO GO TO A VENUE LIKE CITY WINERY OR YOU DO WANT TO GO TO A RESTAURANT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD LIKE PAGU IN CAMBRIDGE WHICH SAYS YOU MUST BE VACCINATED.

SO THERE IS ANOTHER BENEFIT I WOULD ARGUE AS WELL.

MICHAEL GOING BACK TO YOU JUST FOR A SECOND, IN NEW YORK CITY, I KNOW YOU WERE AHEAD OF WHERE GLOIZ WAS BUT ARE YOU BETTER -- DeBLASIO WAS, SIT BETTER TO BE IN NEW YORK CITY WHERE EVERYBODY IS OPERATING UNDER THE SAME RULES AS YOU ARE?

>> WELL WE WERE DOING IT BEFORE OTHERS IN NEW YORK.

AND -- >> Braude: I KNOW THAT.

-- WE HAD SOME REAL QUESTIONING FROM INVESTORS, FROM MANAGERS GOING LIKE WHY ARE WE TURNING AWAY SOME BUSINESS?

AND SO THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A LOSS PERHAPS.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THERE IS A GREATER GAIN BECAUSE WE'LL GET OTHER CUSTOMERS WHO WANT TO BE IN A SAFER BUBBLE AND WOULD RATHER COME WITH US.

I WOULD PAY MORE TO FLY IN ON AMERICAN AIRLINES TODAY IF I KNEW THE FLIGHT WAS 100% VACCINATED, RIGHT?

SO I THINK THE SAME THING HERE, PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR THE LUXURY OF BEING IN A BUBBLE OF FULLY VACCINATED OTHERS.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, I'M GOING TO BE ON THE SAME PLANE AS YOU I SHOULD SAY SO WE'LL GET TO MEET THIS THAT VENUE.

YOU KNOW DOCTOR IT'S NOT JUST INDOORS LIKE NEW YORK CITY IS DOING AND CITY WINERY AND A FEW OTHERS ARE DOING HERE IN BOSTON AREA, GREATER BOSTON, I'M SURE YOU'VE READ THERE ARE A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT OUTDOOR VENUES, AS WELL.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CONCERTS THAT HAVE BEEN CANCELLED, BIG CONCERT IN BOSTON, AND OUTLYING CITIES AND TOWNS BECAUSE PERFORMERS FELT THAT THEY WERE PUTTING CUSTOMERS AT RISK EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE OUTSIDE.

FENWAY PARK URGES THE UNVACCINATED TO WEAR MASKS BUT THERE'S NO MANDATE.

SHOULD WE HAVE RULES ON OUTDOOR VENUES AS WELL OR IS INDOOR ENOUGH?

>> NO, I THINK THAT -- SO FIRST OF ALL WHENEVER I'M ASKED THESE QUESTIONS I'D LIKE TO EMPHASIZE WHAT IS ACTUALLY SAFE.

SO WE WANT TO EMPHASIZE TO PEOPLE THAT IN GENERAL IF YOU HAVE TO PICK BETWEEN INDOOR AND OUTDOORS, OUTDOORS IS THE WAY TO GO BECAUSE OF VENTILATION.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> OUTDOORS IS SAFE.

HOWEVER IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE OUTDOORS IN A CROWD THAT IS WHEN YOU WOULD NEED TO WEAR A MASK AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, ADDITIONAL MEASURES.

BUT IN GENERAL OUTDOORS IS SAFE.

>> Braude: GENERAL OUTDOORS YOU SAY IS SAFE.

I'M SORRY MICHAEL GO AHEAD.

>> I'M NOT A DOCTOR BUT I THINK TAKING EVERY PRECAUTION POSSIBLE AND IF YOU CAN CREATE MANDATES FOR LARGE GATHERINGS OUTDOORS YOU'RE AGAIN CREATING AN EVEN SAFER ENVIRONMENT EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW IT'S BETTER TO BE OUTDOORS AND US IN THE CONTENT CREATION IN THE AREAS THAT PEOPLE DO COME TOGETHER, I DO FEEL IT'S ON US TO MAKE THIS ENFORCEMENT HAPPEN EVEN IF IT'S NOT GOVERNMENT MANDATED.

MAKE THE PLACES WHERE PEOPLE ARE GETTING TOGETHER IN TIGHT PROXIMITY WHETHER IT'S INDOOR OR OUTDOOR ON US, TO ENFORCE.

>> Braude: MICHAEL DORF MAY MANY OTHERS FOLLOW YOUR LEAD.

DR. ASSOUMOU THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: IT'S BEEN A CHALLENGING YEAR AND A HALF FOR THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY, TO SAY THE LEAST.

BUT AS MEGHAN SMITH TELLS US, THE MOVE TOWARD MORE OUTDOOR DINING HAS BROUGHT WITH IT AN OPPORTUNITY TO BENEFIT WHOLE NEW GROUPS OF PATRONS.

>> Reporter: OUTDOOR DINING IS MORE POPULAR THAN EVER IN BOSTON THIS SUMMER, INCLUDING HERE IN JAMAICA PLAIN.

BUT FOR PEOPLE WITH MOBILITY ISSUES, ACCESSING OUTDOOR PATIOS AND DINING AREAS THAT HAVE OVERTAKEN CITY SIDEWALKS CAN BE A "MIXED BAG."

DISABILITY ADVOCATE MICHAEL MUEHE SAYS THAT OUTDOOR DINING IS ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY TO ACCOMMODATE DINERS WITH DISABILITIES.

SINCE THE START OF THE PANDEMIC, HE HAS BEEN WORKING WITH CITY OFFICIALS AND THE BOSTON DISABILITIES COMMISSION TO MAKE ACCESSIBILITY PART OF THE OUTDOOR DINING APPLICATION PROCESS.

>> IT HAPPENS QUITE A BIT, WHERE YOU HAVE AN OLDER PLACE THAT HAS ONE OR TWO STEPS AT THE ENTRANCE, NOT REALLY ACCESSIBLE, AND NOW THEY HAVE ACCESSIBLE DINING FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER.

>> Reporter: ONE RESTAURANT THAT'S GETTING IT RIGHT, HE SAYS, IS TRES GATOS.

>> THIS TO ME IS THE CADILLAC OF OUTDOOR DINING BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT THIS RAISED PLATFORM HERE AND IT'S LEVEL WITH THE SIDEWALK IT MEANS I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH A RAMP THAT MIGHT BE REALLY STEEP, HAVING TO COME DOWN, AND AT THE BOTTOM OF THE RAMP-- THERE ISN'T ENOUGH SPACE TO TURN.

>> Reporter: OWNER DAVID DOYLE SAYS HE WANTED THE RESTAURANT TO HAVE A PERMANENT ACCESSIBILITY SOLUTION, RATHER THAN RELYING ON TEMPORARY FIXES LIKE A PORTABLE RAMP.

BEFORE THE RESTAURANT BUSINESS, DOYLE WORKED AS A PHYSICAL THERAPIST.

>> PROFESSIONALLY DOING THAT FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH INDIVIDUALS LEARNING HOW TO USE A PROSTHESIS, HOW TO USE A WHEELCHAIR SAFELY HAS LED ME TO LOOK AT SPACES DIFFERENTLY WITH AN EYE TOWARDS ACCESSIBILITY.

>> CITY REGULATIONS REQUIRE THAT AT LEAST FIVE PERCENT OF TABLES BE HANDICAP ACCESSIBLE.

DOYLE SAYS THAT THE OUTDOOR PATIO AT TRES GATOS HAS MADE THE RESTAURANT MORE ACCESSIBLE THAN IT WAS BEFORE.

THE UPDATES CAN BE COSTLY.

BUT, MUEHE SAYS THERE ARE PLENTY OF SMALL AND LESS EXPENSIVE SOLUTIONS THAT RESTAURANTS CAN DEPLOY TO BECOME MORE ACCESSIBLE.

LIKE, A SIGN OUTSIDE THE RESTAURANT WITH A NUMBER TO CALL FOR ASSISTANCE OR A.D.A.

APPROVED PICNIC TABLES, YOU DON'T SEE MANY ON CENTRE STREET.

AND, WHEN MUEHE SEES ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, LIKE THIS PATIO WITH A WOBBLY RAMP AND TIGHT CORNER, HE'S NOT AFRAID TO POLITELY SHARE HIS CONCERNS.

>> YOU NOTICE HOW THE RAMP MOVES WHEN I GO DOWN.

YOU CAN PASS THAT ALONG TO THE OWNERS.

THANKS.

>> Reporter: AS THE PANDEMIC BRINGS MORE UNCERTAINTY, BOTH RESTAURANTS AND DISABILITY ADVOCATES HOPE THAT WITH SOME ADJUSTMENTS, OUTDOOR DINING CAN CONTINUE TO PROVIDE A SAFE, ACCESSIBLE OPTION FOR DINERS IN THE CITY.

MEGHAN SMITH, GBH NEWS.

>> Braude: LAST SUMMER THE CITY GAVE OUT 160 PORTABLE RAMPS, AT NO CHARGE, AS PART OF A PROGRAM TO HELP RESTAURANTS MAKE OUTDOOR DINING MORE ACCESSIBLE.

THE RAMPS ARE STILL ON LOAN WITH NO SET RETURN DATE.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW, FOR MORE ON THE CRISIS IN AFGHANISTAN, WITH HUE WE GOT TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY, WITH RETIRED ARMY COLONEL AND B.U.

PROFESSOR EMERITUS ANDREW BACEVICH.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU NOR WATCHING AND OF COURSE PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org