♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE'VE ADDED MORE JOBS IN TWO YEARS THAN ANY PRESIDENT HAS IN AMERICAN HISTORY IN A FOUR-YEAR TERM.

>> ONE YEAR SINCE PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT INTO LAW, HOW HAS IT TRANSFORMED THE AMERICAN ECONOMY?

I DISCUSS WITH TOP WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC ADVISER JARED BERNSTEIN.

>>> THEN -- >> THIS WAS A FOREST, YOU GUYS.

THIS WAS -- YOU COULDN'T SEE THROUGH HERE EVER, FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THIS WAS A HUGE FOREST.

AND THIS IS WHAT'S LEFT.

>> THE DEATH TOLL KEEPING CLIMBING AFTER HAWAII'S CATASTROPHIC WILDFIRES.

WE GET THE LATEST FROM THE STATE'S LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, SYLVIA LUKE.

>>> AND AS JAPANESE AND SOUTH KOREAN LEADERS HEAD TO CAMP DAVID, CAN PRESIDENT BIDEN HELP COOL HISTORIC TENSIONS AND STRENGTHEN AN ALLIANCE ON CHINA'S DOORSTEP?

I ASK KATHLEEN STEPHENS, THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> IF YOU DON'T CREATE MECHANISMS TO ENGAGE WITH EACH OTHER AROUND THE DANGERS OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, THEN WE'RE GOING TO END UP DESTROYING EACH OTHER.

>> THE A.I.

POWER PARADOX.

WALTER TALKS TO IAN BREMMER AND LEADING A.I.

RESEARCHER MUSTAFA SULEYMAN, AS THEY MAKE AN URGENT CALL FOR ACTION.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT.

TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP.

RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK.

U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS TAKING A VICTORY LAP, AS HIS INFLATION REDUCTION ACT CELEBRATES ITS FIRST YEAR, GOING ON THE ROAD AND TOUTING THE IMPACT OF BIDENOMICS.

THE WHITE HOUSE PUSHING OUT ACHIEVEMENTS LIKE 170,000 NEW JOBS IN CLEAN ENERGY, AND $110 BILLION WORTH OF INVESTMENT IN GREEN MANUFACTURING.

BUT THERE'S BEEN SOME CRITICISM FOR SOME OF HIS SIGNATURE POLICY.

SOME POINTING OUT THE GROWING COST ESTIMATES OF THE BILL.

AND THERE'S A FRUSTRATION THAT EASING INFLATION AND STRONG JOB NUMBERS AREN'T TRANSLATING INTO JUST AS STRONG POLL NUMBERS.

PRESIDENT BIDEN'S APPROVAL RATING HOVERING AROUND 41%.

JOINING ME NOW ON ALL OF THIS IS JARED BERNSTEIN, THE CHAIR OF THE U.S. COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS.

HE SERVED AS CHIEF ECONOMIST AND ECONOMIC ADVISER TO THEN VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, LISTEN, A BUSY YEAR, A BUSY WEEK, AND NOW, A DAY TO MARK THE SIGNATURE LEGISLATION, TOGETHER WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL AND THE CHIPS AND SCIENCE ACT.

THE ADMINISTRATION CLEARLY HAS BEEN PUMPING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO THE SYSTEM, INTO THE ECONOMY, AND FOR NOW, THE NET RESULT SEEMS TO BE PROMISING, INFLATION DOWN FROM 9% TO 3.2%, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS AT 3.5%.

GDP IS GROWING.

LOOKS LIKE A RECESSION, PERHAPS, IS AVERTED.

HOME BUILDING DATA TODAY JUST SHOWED INCREASING FIGURES.

IS THIS A VICTORY LAP OF SORTS?

AND IS THERE MORE ACHIEVEMENT TO COME IN TERMS OF YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

>> WELL, AS YOU WELL KNOW, MOST 1-YEAR-OLDS CAN BARELY WALK.

BUT THIS 1-YEAR-OLD, THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, IS UP AND RUNNING IN MUCH THE WAYS AS YOU JUST DESCRIBED.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE BEEN MOST IMPRESSED WITH IS THE REACTION OF PRIVATE INVESTMENT.

THERE WAS SOME REALLY UNTAPPED ENERGY THERE TO COME IN AND STAND UP.

DOMESTIC INDUSTRIES IN THIS COUNTRY IN THE AREA OF SEMICONDUCTORS AND, OF COURSE, CLEAN ENERGY, A MAIN FOCUS OF THE I.R.A.

WE'VE SEEN OUR MANUFACTURING CAPACITY IN TERMS OF FACILITY DOUBLE OVER THE PAST YEAR.

AND THAT WAS FLAT LINING BEFORE WE GOT HERE AND BEFORE THE I.R.A.

CAME INTO EFFECT.

HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, OVER $500 BILLION COMING IN FROM THE SIDELINES TO HELP SUPPORT THIS WORK.

SO IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF REVERSING DECADES OF DISINVESTMENT IN AMERICA.

IN GOOD JOBS.

IN HEALTH CARE SAVINGS.

AND, OF COURSE, IN THE MOST SERIOUS, AND I THINK POR TEN SHUS ACTIONS AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE WE'VE SEEN.

SO, AS YOUR INTRODUCTION SUGGESTED, VERY MUCH ON TRACK.

>> SO, YOU HAVE PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF OUT GIVING INTERVIEWS, THE PRESIDENT SPEAKING TODAY, THE TREASURY SECRETARY ON MONDAY ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE STRENGTH OF THE ECONOMY, THANKS TO -- THANKS TO ACTS LIKE THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT AND OTHER MEASURES TAKEN BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

LISTEN TO WHAT SHE SAID.

>> TODAY, OVERALL INFLATION AND THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE BOTH SIT BELOW 4%.

AND OUR ECONOMY CONTINUES TO EXPAND.

AND WORKERS ARE BETTER OFF THAN THEY WERE LAST YEAR.

REAL AVERAGE HOURLY EARNINGS HAVE GROWN OVER THE PAST YEAR.

THAT MEANS WAGE GAINS ARE OUTPACING INFLATION.

>> BUT THERE'S A BUT HERE, AND YOU KNOW THAT'S COMING, JARED.

AS I MENTIONED, THE PRESIDENT'S APPROVAL RATING FOR THE ECONOMY OVERALL, 37%, 51% OF AMERICANS SAY THE ECONOMY IS GETTING WORSE.

GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT WE OPENED THIS SEGMENT WITH, HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THESE NUMBERS, AND WHAT IS THE ADMINISTRATION DOING WRONG NOT TO SEE A BETTER OUTLOOK FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC OVERALL?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S TALK ABOUT A FEW NUMBERS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH SOME THINGS YOU JUST HEARD SECRETARY YELLEN TALK ABOUT.

SO, JOB SATISFACTION IS AT A 36-YEAR HIGH.

THAT'S FROM A SERIES THAT BEGINS IN 1987, SO, THE HIGHEST ON RECORD.

IF WE LOOK AT CONSUMER SENTIMENT, IF WE LOOK AT CONSUMER CONFIDENCE, THEY'RE ACTUALLY UP TWO-YEAR, OR CLOSE TO TWO-YEAR HIGHS.

CERTAINLY, AS YOU MENTIONED, INFLATION HAS COME DOWN, BUT LOOK, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH A TON, AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF POLITICAL PARTISANSHIP OUT THERE.

WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS KEEP OUR HEADS DOWN, EXPLAIN TO FOLKS THE KINDS OF PROGRESS WE'VE MADE.

I DON'T THINK WE'VE EVER SEEN SUCH AN INCREASE IN MANUFACTURING CAPACITY, THE FACILITIES THAT I'VE MENTIONED EARLIER.

A DOUBLING, RELATIVE TO THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION.

I CAN'T REMEMBER AN ACT LIKE THE I.R.A., OR FOR THAT MATTER, CHIPS AND SCIENCES OR INFRASTRUCTURE, THIS QUICKLY GETTING INTO THE SYSTEM.

THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN VALUES, MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE AT SUCH HIGH OFFICE, IS IMPLEMENTATION.

IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO SIGN IT.

YOU HAVE TO GET IT OUT THERE SO PEOPLE CAN TANGIBLY SEE IT AND FEEL.

WE'RE SEEING THE KINDS OF SAVINGS THAT WILL REGISTER IN PEOPLE'S CONSCIOUSNESS AND CHANGE SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS.

AND SOME OF THAT CHANGE IS UNDER WAY.

I MEAN, WE HAVE A SITUATION IN FLORIDA, WHERE THERE'S SAVINGS TO MILLIONS OF HOMES FROM SOLAR TAX CREDITS.

WE HAVE A SITUATION IN DETROIT, SAME THING WITH RENEWABLE ENERGY.

THESE ARE TANGIBLE, ON THE GROUND ACHIEVEMENTS THAT I THINK ARE STARTING TO REGISTER IN THE PUBLIC'S MIND.

>> WELL, IF PAST IS PROLOGUE, AND LISTEN, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT IN NOTING PARTISANSHIP, BUT WE KNOW THAT VOTERS VOTE WITH THEIR POCKETBOOKS.

DO YOU THINK EVERYTHING YOU'VE JUST OUTLINED, INCLUDING THIS ADMINISTRATION'S CHANGED APPROACH, TO REALLY EMBRACING THIS PRESIDENT'S AGENDA, BY LABELING IT BIDENOMICS, THE LAST FEW WEEKS, DO YOU THINK ALL OF THAT CAN CHANGE AMERICANS' PERSPECTIVE IN THE NEXT YEAR BEFORE THE ELECTION?

>> WELL, TO SOME EXTENT, THAT'S A POLITICAL QUESTION, AND I'M AN ECONOMIC ADVISER.

WHAT I THINK WE HAVE BEHIND US, AND HERE'S WHERE ECONOMICS AND POLITICS, I THINK, OFTEN COME TOGETHER, IS JUST A REALLY SOLID RECORD OF IMPLEMENTING IMPORTANT POLICIES, TARGETED AND UPLIFTING THE MIDDLE CLASS.

WE HAVE AN UNEMPLOYMENT RATE THAT'S BEEN BELOW 4% FOR A YEAR AND A HALF, OVER 13 MILLION JOBS, AND SOMETHING SECRETARY YELLEN SAID IS GOING TO BECOME INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT, THAT'S RISING REAL WAGE GAINS.

SO, ALL OF THAT IS BAKED IN THE CAKE.

AND LOOK, BIDENOMICS IS BUILDING THE ECONOMY FROM THE MIDDLE OUT AND THE BOTTOM UP, AND IT STANDS IN DIRECT CONTRAST TO TRICKLE-DOWN DISINVESTMENT.

THIS INFLATION REDUCTION ACT REVERSES DECADES OF DISINVESTMENT, IF YOU GIVE RICH PEOPLE MORE MONEY, THAT'S GOING TO WORK OUT FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS.

WE KNOW THAT'S FALSE.

THE KINDS OF MEASURES WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT TODAY ARE DIRECTLY HELPING THE MIDDLE CLASS, BOTH THROUGH RISING REAL WAGES, THROUGH A VERY PERSISTENTLY SOLID JOB MARKET, AND NOW, THROUGH INVESTMENTS IN KEY SECTORS, IN MANUFACTURING, IN CHIPS, AND IN CLEAN ENERGY.

>> WELL, AS YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE, ESPECIALLY IN THE CURRENT ENVIRONMENT, POLITICS FROM THE ECONOMY, AND I RAISE THIS, BECAUSE JUST THIS MONTH, FITCH RATINGS DOWNGRADED THE U.S. CREDIT RATE, AND IT SAID, YES, THE NATION'S DEBT IS GROWING, AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S CONCERNED ABOUT, BUT MAINLY BECAUSE OF THE PARTISAN STANDOFF WE WITNESSED IN TERMS OF THE DEBT CEILING DEBACLE.

CURRENT SPENDING RUNS OUT FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN SEPTEMBER.

THERE ARE CONCERNS WE COULD SEE ANOTHER GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.

DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN?

HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT THAT?

AND THEN, PERHAPS, YET ANOTHER RATING AGENCY COMING OUT AND FOLLOWING WHAT FITCH DID?

>> WELL LET'S START WITH THE FITCH ACTION.

I THINK ONE OF THE IRONIC THINGS ABOUT THAT, THERE WAS CRITICISM OF THE DEBT CEILING DEBATE, WHICH, LOOK, WE ARGUED FROM THE BEGINNING SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

REPUBLICANS WHO RESISTED RAISING THE DEBT CEILING DID SO THREE TIMES WITHOUT BLINKING ABOUT EYE UNDER PRETTY TRUMP.

BUT UNDER THIS PRESIDENT'S LEADERSHIP, A -- AN OVERWHELMINGLY BIPARTISAN DEAL WAS ACHIEVED.

THE PRESIDENT HAS $2.5 TRILLION OF DEFICIT REDUCTION IN HIS BUDGET.

SO, WE'RE VERY MUCH AWARE OF THE FISCAL CHALLENGES WE FACE, AND WE'RE DOING ALL WE CAN TO TRY TO IMPROVE THEM, AND I THINK THIS PRESIDENT HAS SHOWN -- EVEN IN THE DEBT CEILING DEBATE, THAT HE'S BEEN ABLE TO MAKE SOME OF THOSE ACHIEVEMENTS, EVEN ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS.

ONE OF THE IRONIC THINGS ABOUT THAT DOWNGRADE, IF YOU LOOK AT FITCH'S OWN METRICS OF CREDIT WORTHINESS, THEY TANKED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY'VE BEEN INCREASING UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, SO, I DON'T THINK THAT MADE A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE.

>> YEAH, THE RATING AGENCIES HAVE BEEN CRITICIZED IN THE PAST FOR SEEMINGLY REACTING AND ACTING -- NOT AHEAD OF ANY PRECIPITATING CRISIS.

I WANT TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO SOMETHING THAT THE PRESIDENT SAID AT A FUND-RAISER RECENTLY, AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT.

I WISH I HADN'T CALLED IT THAT, IT PROVIDES ALTERNATIVES THAT PROVIDE ECONOMIC GROWTH.

WHY DID HE SAY THAT?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CONTEXT WAS THERE, AND I CAN TELL YOU, THOUGH, THAT AS YOU -- AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION TO THE SEGMENT, INFLATION HAS COME DOWN FROM OVER 9% LAST JUNE, JUNE OF '22, TO 3.2% LAST SEEN.

AND THE AMAZING THING ABOUT THAT, AS INFLATION HAS COME DOWN BY ALMOST SIX PERCENTAGE POINTS THERE, THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE HAS BASICALLY NOT BUDGED.

IT WAS 3.6% IN JUNE OF '22, IT'S 3.5%, SO, JUST ABOUT THE SAME, THAT HISTORICALLY LOW RATE, IN JULY OF '23.

IT IS VERY UNUSUAL IN ECONOMICS, AS YOU WELL KNOW, TO HAVE THAT MUCH INFLATION REDUCTION WITHOUT HAVING TO GIVE UP A BUNCH OF PERCENTAGE POINTS ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE.

NOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SKINLT CONSISTENTLY SAID THAT THAT'S POSSIBLE, AND I THINK THUS FAR, HE'S SHOWN THAT TO BE THE CASE.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE I.R.A., THERE ARE DEFINITELY INFLATION REDUCTION ELEMENTS OF THE I.R.A., BULL THERE'S A VERY DEEP INVESTMENT AND CLIMATE AGENDA.

>> WELL, WE KNOW THE PRESIDENT WILL BE VISITING MAUI ON MONDAY, THE WHITE HOUSE ANNOUNCED TODAY, TO VISIT THE JUST TRAGIC OUTCOME FOLLOWING THE FIRES THERE AND THE LOSS OF LIFE, THE SEARCH AND RESCUE CONTINUES.

INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, AS YOU NOTED, PROVIDE ALMOST $400 BILLION FOR CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION AND GREEN ENERGY.

BUT GIVEN WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN MAUI, AND REALLY, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES, AROUND THE WORLD, IN TERMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND FIRES, RAINS, DROUGHTS, WHAT HAVE YOU, IS THIS JUST A DROP IN THE BUCKET AT THIS POINT?

>> NO, IT'S THE MOST AMBITIOUS ACTION AGAINST ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER TAKEN, AND, IN FACT, THERE ARE ESTIMATES OUT THERE THAT WE ARE ON TRACK TO HIT SOME OF OUR CLIMATE GOALS AND PARTICULARLY TO SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THE USE OF ELECTRICITY FUELED BY RENEWABLE POWER, AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE TRYING TO HIGHLIGHT TODAY IS WAYS IN WHICH THAT NOT ONLY OCCURS, BUT HELPS FAMILIES' BOTTOM LINES.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, A $7,500 TAX CREDIT WHEN IT COMES TO PURCHASING AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE.

ALSO, OF COURSE, TAX CREDITS TO NOT ONLY SUPPORT MANUFACTURING IN WAYS THAT WILL PRODUCE CLEAN ENERGY PRODUCTS, BUT ALSO FOR INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN, FOR EXAMPLE, SOLAR PANELS.

AND I THINK I MENTIONED THE CASE EARLIER OF FLORIDA, WHERE 1.5 MILLION CONSUMERS ARE GOING TO BENEFIT TO $400 MILLION FROM THOSE ACTIONS.

SO, THAT'S IN PLAY, THAT'S IN THE SYSTEM, BUT BY THE WAY, WHEN IT COMES TO MAUI, DIRECT, ON THE GROUND INTERVENTIONS BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, THIS IS -- YES, THERE'S VERY MUCH A MEDIUM AND LONG-TERM PLAY WHEN IT COMES TO THE ENVIRONMENT, WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN HAWAII AND MAUI IN PARTICULAR, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT BIDEN AND HARRIS ADMINISTRATION IS AGGRESSIVELY INTERVENING IN.

YOU CAN GO TO WHITEHOUSE.GOV, A FACT SHEET WENT UP ON ALL THE ACTIONS BEING TAKEN.

THERE ARE 500 FEDERAL OFFICIALS ON THE GROUND RIGHT NOW.

THAT'S A NEAR-TERM ACTION.

>> $6 BILLION ALONE ESTIMATES NOW FOR REBUILDING LAHAINA ALONE.

NOT TO DOWNPLAY THE SIGNIFICANCE AND HISTORIC NATURE OF THE $400 BILLION ALOFTED FOR CLIMATE CHANGE MITIGATION IN THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, BUT WE'RE SEEING SCENES LIKE THIS AROUND THE WORLD ALMOST ON A WEEKLY BASIS NOW.

JARED BERNSTEIN, GREAT TO -- >> WHOLE OF GOVERNMENT APPROACH.

>> YEAH.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, AS WELL, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WELL, AS WE SAID, PRESIDENT BIDEN WILL HEAD TO HAWAII TO MEET WITH LOCAL OFFICIALS AND SURVIVORS, AFTER WHAT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS AN APOCALYPTIC WILDFIRE.

AT LEAST 106 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED, AND WITH MANY MORE STILL MISSING, THAT NUMBER IS EXPECTED TO RISE.

FEMA DISASTER TEAMS HAVE ARRIVED AND GENETIC TESTING EXPERTS WILL HELP IDENTIFY THE VICTIMS.

BUT HAWAII'S GOVERNOR IS WARNING THAT THE PROCESS COULD TAKE WEEKS, AS SEARCH AND RESCUE WORKERS SIFT THROUGH THE ASHES.

THE QUESTION FOR MANY IS, HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED?

JOINING ME NOW IS HAWAII'S LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR SYLVIA LUKE.

I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO ASK HOW THIS COULD HAPPEN, BECAUSE YOU ARE RESPONDING TO THIS CRISIS AND THE GROUND IN REAL TIME, BUT WHERE DO THINGS STAND AS OF NOW?

OVER 100 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED DEAD, OVER 1,000 STILL MISSING, AND I BELIEVE THE GOVERNOR SAID AS OF YESTERDAY, 27%, IN TERMS OF THE SEARCH, HAS BEEN COMPLETED.

WHERE DO THINGS STAND NOW?

>> YOU KNOW, BEFORE I START, I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU, THANK THE WORLD, FOR THE CONCERN AND THE LOVE AND OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT.

YOU KNOW, THE PAST WEEK, LITTLE OVER A WEEK, IT HAS BEEN DEVASTATING.

WE -- THIS IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE, IT HAS SHAKEN OUR STATE, SHAKEN THE COMMUNITY OF MAUI.

WE HAVE BEEN GETTING SO MANY CALLS AND SO MANY RESPONSES, NOT JUST FROM AROUND THE STATE, NOT JUST FROM AROUND THE NATION, BUT FROM THE WORLD.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS SO TRAGIC AND DEVASTATING FOR OUR COMMUNITY, AND AS YOU MENTIONED, BIANNA, WE HAVE -- THERE HAS BEEN ABOUT -- A LITTLE OVER 100 PEOPLE CONFIRMED DECEASED.

THERE ARE STILL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE MISSING.

THE SEARCH RESCUE TEAM, IT'S BEEN A SLOW PROGRESS, BECAUSE THEY'RE TAKING A METHODICAL APPROACH, AND WE WANT TO BE RESPECTFUL TO THE FAMILY AND THE COMMUNITY, BUT IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT, AND IT'S BEEN A TRYING PROCESS.

>> I KNOW YOU ARE CURRENTLY SEEKING DNA SAMPLES FROM THOSE WHOSE LOVED ONES ARE STILL MISSING RIGHT NOW.

IT IS JUST HORRIFYING, THE SCENES ON THE GROUND, AND KNOWING THAT THIS WILL BE CONTINUING FOR DAYS TO COME.

HOW CONTAINED ARE THE FIRES AS OF TODAY?

>> IT'S MOSTLY CONTAINED.

YOU KNOW, EVEN AS A COUPLE DAYS AGO, THERE HAS BEEN SOME BRUSH FIRES THAT HAS BEEN IGNITING, BUT I THINK, BIANNA, JUST AS YOU RECOGNIZE, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, NOT JUST IN HAWAII, BUT AROUND THE NATION, AND AROUND THE WORLD, AS WE DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, DRIER CONDITIONS, YOU KNOW, OFFICIALS NEED TO TAKE CLOSER ATTENTION AND PAY ATTENTION TO SOME OF THE DRIER CONDITIONS, AND WHAT'S GOING ON.

LOOK AT THE -- LOOK AT THE FIRE CONDITIONS AND BRUSH FIRES JUST IN THE LAST -- WITHIN THE LAST DECADE, WE HAD SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF BRUSH FIRES ON THE WEST COAST, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE NATION HAS TO TAKE CLOSER ATTENTION TO.

>> AND WE KNOW THAT THIS WAS LIKELY THE CAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT IN TERMS OF ANYTHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO MITIGATE THE -- THE DISASTER THAT WE'RE SEEING NOW AND THE NUMBERS OF LIVES LOST, THERE ARE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS BEING ASKED, FOR EXAMPLE, HAWAII'S OUTDOOR SIREN WARNING WAS NOT ACTIVATED.

WHY NOT?

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, THERE ARE SO MANY QUESTIONS.

WHETHER IT WAS EVEN THE QUESTIONS ABOUT ELECTRIFIED LINES, POWER LINES, WHY WERE THE SIRENS NOT WORKING, WHY WERE THE WATER SYSTEM NOT FULLY CHARGED?

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT WILL BE TASKED BY OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.

THAT'S WHY VERY QUICKLY THE GOVERNOR HAS INITIATED AN INVESTIGATION, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT -- THAT JUST -- FEW INDIVIDUALS ARE ASKING, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE ENTIRE STATE IS ASKING, AND THE ENTIRE NATION IS ASKING, SO, WE WILL LEARN FROM SOME OF THE ISSUES, AND WE HOPE TO FIGURE OUT, OKAY, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS TRAGEDY, AND WHAT STEPS CAN THE STATE AND THE NATION CAN TAKE, FOR OTHER SITUATIONS, AS WELL?

>> ARE YOU INVESTIGATING WHETHER FALLEN UTILITY LINES COULD HAVE BEEN A POSSIBLE CAUSE TO THE FIRES?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S -- THAT HAS BEEN RAISED, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WILL TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION ALL ISSUES, INCLUDING THAT, INCLUDING THE RESPONSE BY COUNTY, STATE, AND FEDERAL AGENCIES, INCLUDING MANY OF THE -- MANY OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE BEING RAISED ON BASICALLY A DAILY BASIS.

>> AS I MENTIONED, THE PRESIDENT WILL BE ARRIVING TO TOUR THE DEVASTATION THERE FIRST-HAND ON MONDAY.

WITH THE FIRST LADY.

OVER 500 FEDERAL EMERGENCY PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN DISPATCHED SO FAR, FEMA HAS APPROVED ONE-TIME PAYMENTS OF $700 FOR HOUSEHOLD, AND THAT IS TO COVER FOOD, WATER, MEDICAL SUPPLIES.

FROM YOUR ESTIMATION, IS THAT ENOUGH MONEY?

>> YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT THE DAMAGE DONE TO LAHAINA, LOOKING AT THE DAMAGE DONE TO OTHER PARTS OF MAUI, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF STRUCTURAL DAMAGE.

THAT'S STRUCTURAL DAMAGE ALONE.

THE DAMAGE DONE TO FAMILIES WHO LOST LIVED, FAMILIES WHO ARE STILL MISSING, FAMILIES WHO ARE DISPLACED, BUSINESSES THAT HAVE LOST THEIR BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT -- JUST ON THE STRUCTURAL DAMAGE AMOUNT IS NOT COMPARABLE TO THE SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF IMPACT TO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY.

LET ME JUST SAY THAT WE ARE JUST SO THANKFUL TO THE SUPPORT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND THE PRESIDENT CALLED OUR GOVERNOR IMMEDIATELY, THEY SPOKE SEVERAL TIMES.

VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS DID CONTACT ME DIRECTLY, AND WE ARE JUST SO THANKFUL THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT UNDERSTOOD THE DEVASTATION AND REACTED ACCORDINGLY.

>> FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT'S THE LOSS OF HUMAN LIFE IN TRAGEDY THAT IS THE PRIMARY FOCUS, BUT OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS A BIG HIT TO THE ECONOMY, AS WELL, AND TOURISM IS A HUGE FACTOR AND HAS A HUGE ROLE IN THE ECONOMY IN THE STATE THERE.

THE GOVERNOR SAYS HE WILL NOT BE SHUTTING DOWN TRAVEL TO THE -- TO HAWAII, DUE TO THESE FIRES.

DO YOU THINK THAT HE SHOULD RETHINK THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE DISCOURAGING ESSENTIAL TRAVEL TO WEST MAUI, MAUI, IT'S STILL IN TACT, AND HAWAII, SIMILAR TO SOME OF THE OTHER STATES, ARE HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON TOURISM, THE REST OF THE STATE, THEY ARE OPEN FOR BUSINESS, AND SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE TRAVELING TO HAWAII, THEY HAVE SAVED UP THEIR ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS, JUST TO SEE A PIECE OF PARADISE, AND WE DON'T WANT TO DISCOURAGE THEM FROM GOING TO TO OAHU, GOING TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF MAUI, BUT AS MUCH AS YOU CAN, WE ARE DISCOURAGING TRAVEL TO WEST MAUI, BECAUSE THE TRAFFIC PATTERN IS RESTRICTED, PEOPLE ARE STILL MISSING, WE ARE STILL IN RECOVERY MODE, AND WE'RE STILL DOING SEARCH AND RESCUE, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, WE ARE -- WE ARE DISCOURAGING TRAVEL TO WEST MAUI.

>> I KNOW THERE'S BEEN SOME CRITICISM BY LOCAL RESIDENTS THERE THAT ROAD CLOSURES HAVE STOPPED PEOPLE FROM ENTERING LAHAINA, THAT WANT TO COME AND HELP, AND DISTRIBUTE SUPPLIES THAT ARE DESPERATELY IN NEED.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

CAN ANYTHING BE DONE TO CHANGE IT?

>> YES, YOU KNOW, THE COUNTY, WE'RE WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE COUNTIES TO MANAGE THE AMOUNT OF DONATION, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, THE OUTPOURS AMOUNT OF SUPPORT HAS LED TO SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DONATIONS, AND PART OF IT IS, NOW WE HAVE BOXES AND CONTAINERS FULL OF CLOTHING, BUT WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED IS THAT MANY OF THE LAHAINA RESIDENTS ARE DISPLACED INDIVIDUALS HAVE SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF CLOTHING, SO, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO MANAGE RIGHT NOW IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF DONATIONS, SO, WE ARE MANAGING PUTTING IT IN STORAGE, WE ARE LABELING, SORTING, AND THEN FIGURE OUT WHAT IS NEEDED AND HAVE A DISTRIBUTION PROCESS THAT MAKES SENSE.

IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS, THE COUNTY AND THE STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WE STRUGGLED TO GET ITEMS OUT TO PEOPLE IN NEED, BECAUSE OF CONNECTIVITY ISSUE, BECAUSE OF ROAD CLOSURES, BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE NOT CONNECTED WITH THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY, AND THAT IS GETTING BETTER.

I MYSELF VISITED A SHELTER A FEW DAYS AGO, AND THE NUMBER IN THE SHELTERS HAVE DECREASED, BECAUSE NOW THE GOVERNOR HAS TRIED REALLY HARD TO FIND DIFFERENT PLACEMENT, WHETHER IT'S USING HOTEL, EMPTY HOTEL ROOMS, OR ASKING THE SHORT-TERM RENTALS TO TAKE IN INDIVIDUALS, BUT MANY OF THEM ARE WITH FAMILIES, MANY OF THEM ARE WITH FRIENDS, SOME OF THEM HAVE MOVED TO OAHU, SO, WE ARE TRYING TO DO SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF OUTREACH TO TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DISPLACED.

>> THE BEFORE AND AFTER PHOTOS ARE JUST HEARTBREAKING, AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE JUST HEARING OF LAHAINA NOW, FOLLOWING THIS FIRE, CAN YOU GIVE OUR VIEWERS A SENSE OF WHAT THIS PLACE MEANS TO THE RESIDENTS THERE, TO YOU?

YOU'VE LIVED IN HAWAII SINCE YOU WERE 9 YEARS OLD, I BELIEVE.

THIS IS A HUGE LOSS IN TERMS OF A CULTURAL LANDMARK, AND HOME FOR SO MANY.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, AND I THINK THAT'S WHY -- ANY PLACE THAT IS LOST IN THE STATE OF HAWAII IS -- IS A TRAGEDY, BUT ESPECIALLY IN LAHAINA TOWN.

LAHAINA TOWN IS WHERE VISITORS AND LOCALS ALIKE WENT TO VISIT, AND IT WAS A TREASURE.

IT HAD SUCH HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, AND IT WAS RIGHT ON THE COAST, AND IT WAS THE WHALERS VILLAGE.

AND IT HAS QUAINT SHOPS, YOU KNOW, IT HAD A LOT OF LOCAL BUSINESSES, AND THIS WAS THE PLACE TO GO FOR MANY OF THE FOLKS VISITING OUR STATE.

IN FACT, THIS MORNING, THE GOVERNOR AND I WERE EXCHANGING TEXTS, BECAUSE WE TALK CONSTANTLY, AND HE SHOWED ME A PHOTO OF WHEN HE AND THE FIRST LADY WENT TO VISIT LAHAINA ABOUT 17 YEARS AGO.

AND HE SHOWED A PICTURE OF HIM WALKING IN THE RUINS, AND BOTH OF US, IT BROKE OUR HEARTS, BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW LAHAINA LOOKED TWO WEEKS AGO, AND HOW IT LOOKS NOW.

>> WELL, WE'RE SHOWING IMAGES OF LAHAINA, BEFORE AND AFTER, AND YOU JUST -- WORDS CAN'T DESCRIBE WHAT WE'RE SEEING, AND OBVIOUSLY WHAT YOU'RE FEELING THERE ON THE GROUND, AS A RESIDENT, AND AS SOMEBODY THERE WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WELL BEING OF ALL OF THOSE IN THE AREA AFFECTED BY THESE HORRIBLE FIRES.

LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR LUKE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE COVERING THIS STORY, AND OBVIOUSLY, AS WE HEARD FROM JARED BERNSTEIN, THE ENTIRE COUNTRY IS FOCUSED ON PROVIDING THE STATE WITH WHATEVER AID IS NECESSARY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH AND BEST OF LUCK TO YOU.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW TURNING TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

WE'RE LEARNING MORE ABOUT AN ATTACK ON RUSSIA'S BRIDGE TO CRIMEA LAST MONTH.

UKRAINE'S CYBER SECURITY SERVICE IS CLAIMING RESPONSIBILITY.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IT'S OPENLY DONE SO.

AND NOW, NEW FOOTAGE SHOWS THE MOMENT AN EXPERIMENTAL SEA DRONE DETONATED UNDER THE BRIDGE.

CORRESPONDENT NICK PAYTON WALSH HAS THIS EXCLUSIVE REPORT.

>> Reporter: IT'S BECOME THE MOST BELEAGUERED SYMBOL OF RUSSIAN OCCUPATION.

THIS WEEKEND, MOSCOW SAYING THIS INCIDENT WAS JUST A SMOKE SCREEN, FOICHLING A UKRAINIAN ATTACK ON THE $4 BILLION BRIDGE.

THE LINK BETWEEN RUSSIA AND OCCUPIED CRIMEA THAT PUTIN SEEMS TO DOTE ON.

NOW CNN HAS OBTAINED EXCLUSIVE FOOTAGE HERALDING A NEW WAY OF WARFARE.

OF ANOTHER EARLIER DEVASTATING UKRAINIAN SEA-BORNE DRONE STRIKE THERE IN JULY.

FROM THE UKRAINIAN SECURITY SERVICES, THE SBU, WHO SAY THEY DID IT, AND MORE WILL FOLLOW.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE DRONE PILOT SAW.

THERMAL IMAGERY.

THE WATER RIPPLING AS UP TO A TON OF EXPLOSIVE APPROACHES THE BRIDGE.

THE FEED THEN OBVIOUSLY WENT DEAD AS IT HIT THE CONCRETE.

RUSSIAN OFFICIALS SAY TWO CIVILIANS DIED IN THE ATTACK.

CAMERAS ON THE BRIDGE CAPTURED THE FIRST BLAST ON THE ROAD SECTION.

THE CURSOR SHOWS THE DRONE MOVING IN.

AND ANOTHER ON THE RAILWAY TRACKS AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME.

UKRAINE HAS BEEN COY.

SOME OFFICIALS SAYING THESE HUGE BLASTS ARE FROM, QUOTE, UNIDENTIFIED FLOATING OBJECTS.

BUT NO LONGER.

THE HEAD OF THE UKRAINIAN SECURITY SERVICES TOLD CNN THIS IS JUST THE START.

>> Translator: SEA SURFACE DRONES ARE UNIQUE INVENTION OF THE SECURITY SERVICE OF UKRAINE.

NONE OF THE PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE INVOLVED.

USING THESE DRONES, WE HAVE RECENTLY CONDUCTED SUCCESSFUL HITS OF THE CRIMEAN BRIDGE.

A BIG ASSAULT SHIP, AND A TANKER.

>> Reporter: THIS, ANOTHER UKRAINIAN DRONE ATTACK ON THE RUSSIAN AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT BOAT, ON WHICH UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS SAID 100 PERSONNEL WERE ONBOARD.

IT WAS A REMARKABLE FEAT, CARRIED OUT BY A GROWING FLEET OF WHAT THEY CALL THE SEA BABIES.

HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY FROM UKRAINIAN BASES, AND RIGHT IN RUSSIA'S COASTAL HEARTLAND.

IT PUT THE BLACK SEA'S EAST SUDDENLY AT RISK.

>> Translator: THESE DRONES ARE PRODUCED AT AN UNDERGROUND PRODUCTION FACILITY IN UKRAINE.

WE ARE WORKING ON A NUMBER OF NEW, INTERESTING OPERATIONS, INCLUDING IN THE BLACK SEA WATERS.

I PROMISE YOU, IT WILL BE EXCITING, ESPECIALLY FOR OUR ENEMIES.

>> Reporter: UKRAINE'S INGENUITY, A GAIN AND A GAME TOPPLING THE LUMBERING RUSSIAN GOLIATH.

NICK PAYTON WALSH, CNN, DNIPRO, UKRAINE.

>> OUR THANKS TO NICK FOR THAT REPORT.

>>> WELL, THIS FRIDAY, THE U.S. IS SET TO PLAY HOST TO THE JAPANESE PRIME MINISTER AND SOUTH KOREAN PRESIDENT AT CAMP DAVID.

PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FIRST SUMMIT AT THE STORIED COUNTRY RETREAT IS AIMED AT BRINGING THE REGIONAL ALLIES CLOSER TOGETHER, AND SENDING A LOUD MESSAGE TO CHINA AND NORTH KOREA.

BUT JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA HAVE THEIR OWN ISSUES THAT COULD COMPLICATE THINGS.

TENSIONS THAT DATE BACK TO THE JAPANESE OCCUPATION OF KOREA DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

JOINING ME NOW, WHAT WE CAN EXPECT FROM THE SUMMIT IS KATHLEEN STEPHENS WHO SERVED AS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA.

AMBASSADOR, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

SO, FIRST, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO GET YOU TO COMMENT ON THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS SUMMIT.

IT IS THE FIRST THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BROKERED AMONG OTHER FOREIGN LEADERS HERE.

CLEARLY SENDING A MESSAGE OF SIGNIFICANCE TO -- TO OTHER CHINA AND NORTH KOREA.

>> YES, I THINK IT IS SIGNIFICANT.

AS YOU SAY, THE FIRST TIME THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN ABLE TO MEET IN A STANDALONE SUMMIT, AND, OF COURSE, CAMP DAVID HAS ITS OWN SYMBOLIC IMPORTANCE, BE A STAND ALONE SUMMIT WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF JAPAN AND THE PRESIDENT OF KOREA.

AND, OF COURSE, HE'S MET BILATERALLY WITH THEM A NUMBER OF TIMES SINCE HE BECAME PRESIDENT, AND I THINK NOW, I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF, SEES THIS AS SOME OF THE FRUITS OF HIS LABOR OF TRYING TO REVITALIZE, AS HE'S PUT IT AGAIN AND AGAIN, KEY ALLIANCES AND PARTNERS.

HE'S DONE THAT WITH JAPAN, HE'S DONE THAT WITH SOUTH KOREA, NOW, THE NEXT STEP IS TO BRING, AS YOU HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED, TWO COUNTRIES, SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN, WHO HAVE BOTH STRONG ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT HAVE THEIR OWN DIFFICULT HISTORY, AND ARE NOT ALLIES WITH EACH OTHER, THEY CERTAINLY WORK TOGETHER, BUT HAVE HAD A DIFFICULT HISTORY.

THAT IS NOW IMPROVED, AND I THINK HE WANTS TO SOLIDIFY THAT IMPROVEMENT, INSTITUTIONALIZE IT AND MOVE IT FORWARD.

>> YEAH, FURTHER HIS PURSUIT ON A PIVOT TOWARDS ASIA, FOR SURE.

THE THREE LEADERS ARE SET TO ANNOUNCE THEIR WILL HOLD JOINT MILITARY EXERCISES, DEVELOP A NEW CRISIS HOT LINE, HAVE TIGHTER ECONOMIC COOPERATION, AND HOPE TO MAKE THIS SUMMIT AN ANNUAL EVENT.

DO YOU THINK THAT THESE EXPECTATIONS, THUS FAR, ARE SOMETHING THAT CAN LAST BEYOND JUST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND THE ADMINISTRATION OF THESE TWO LEADERS, AS WE SAID, THERE IS A RATHER COMPLICATED PAST.

THESE TWO POLITICALLY SEEM TO BE MORE CLOSER ALIGNED, BUT THERE IS CONCERN, POTENTIAL BACKSLIDING, IN FUTURE ADMINISTRATIONS.

>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S WORRY -- THAT'S A GOOD YES, BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS CONCERN ABOUT THAT ON ALL SIDES, AND THEREFORE, AGAIN, WHAT I THINK THEY WANT TO COME OUT ON FRIDAY IS A SENSE OF PUTTING IN SOME INSTITUTIONAL BUILDING BLOCKS THAT WILL ALLOW IT TO HAVE A LITTLE MORE RESILIENCE GOING FORWARD.

IT BEING THE COOPERATION AMONG THE THREE COUNTRIES, AND A PARTICULAR -- THAT BETWEEN -- EXCUSE ME, SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN.

BUT I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE IT, IF I MAY SAY, A LITTLE BIT SLOWLY.

I DON'T THINK THE HISTORICAL ISSUES BETWEEN JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA HAVE ENTIRELY GONE AWAY.

BOTH LEADERS, PARTICULARLY IN KOREA, BUT BOTH LEADES ARE CONSTRAINED BY THEIR OWN DOMESTIC POLITICAL CLIMATES.

AND, OF COURSE, BOTH OF THEM ARE ALSO LOOKING AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THEY WORRY ABOUT THE RETURN OF AN ADMINISTRATION THAT MIGHT NOT BE SO ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT AMERICA'S ALLIANCE COMMITMENTS, SO, ALL THREE OF THEM HAVE A REASON TOLL WANT TO, AS I SAID, TRY TO KIND OF SOLIDIFY IT WHILE AT A MOMENT WHEN THERE IS A SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF THE THREAT.

AND YOU MENTIONED CHINA AND RUSSIA, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- NORTH KOREA'S BELLIGERENCE HAS CONTINUED.

THERE ARE CLEARLY AREAS WHERE THESE COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY, OVER THE YEARS, COOPERATED, BUT THEY'VE HAD THEIR UPS AND DOWNS, PARTICULARLY BETWEEN JAPAN AND KOREA, AND NOW AS A MOMENT TO KIND OF INSTITUTIONALIZE THAT, TAKE IT TO ANOTHER LEVEL, AND HOPEFULLY HAVE IT CONTINUE, EVEN THOUGH THERE WILL BE POLITICAL UNCERTAINTIES, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY, IN EACH COUNTRY, IN THE COMING YEARS.

>> YEAH, OF COURSE, CHINA'S ALREADY SAYING THAT THIS IS A PROVOCATIONAL MOVE BY THE UNITED STATES AND SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN.

RECENTLY RUSSIA AND CHINA CONDUCTED NAVAL EXERCISES JUST NEAR THE -- ALASKA, IN THE ALASKAN WATERS THERE.

DO YOU WORRY WHAT SORT OF RESPONSE THIS COULD HAVINGER FROM CHINA, NAMELY?

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, CHINA'S NEVER BEEN VERY COMPLIMENTARY OR ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT THE UNITED STATES ' RELIANCE ON DEVELOPING ALLIES AND PARTNERSHIPS OVER THE YEARS.

I REMEMBER YEARS AGO, THEY CALLED OUR ALLIANCE WITH JAPAN AND WITH SOUTH KOREA RELICS OF THE COLD WAR.

AND THEY'VE TRIED TO KIND OF DIVIDE, IF YOU LIKE, AND IF NOT, CONQUER, BUDDY BUT DIVIDE IN ASIA IN PARTICULAR.

BUT I THINK, RIGHT NOW, THERE'S A SHARED SENSE -- DIFFERENT IN EVERY CAPITAL, FOR SURE, BUT A SHARED SENSE OF SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT CHINA POSES, AND THERE'S ALSO, I GUESS YOU'D SAY, THE IRONY, AND I MEAN, THE -- ON THE CHINESE SIDE, THEY'VE ALSO LOOKED TO SHORE UP THEIR TIES, AS WE KNOW, WITH RUSSIA.

JUST HAD A PIECE ON UKRAINE.

AND WITH -- WITH NORTH KOREA.

AND IN FACT, JUST THIS LAST JULY, THE RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTER WAS IN NORTH KOREA, AND THERE WAS A HIGH LEVEL COMMUNIST OFFICIAL THERE, AS WELL, SO, I THINK WE ARE IN AN AREA WHERE OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE OUTSIDE ARE SAYING, MAYBE THERE IS A LITTLE BIT MORE TOWARDS MORE BLOC DIPLOMACY, BUT I THINK CHINA WILL BE CRITICAL OF THIS -- OF THIS MEETING.

I THINK THEY WILL WATCH IN PARTICULAR IF SOMETHING IS SAID ABOUT TAIWAN.

THAT'S ESPECIALLY TENDER AREA FOR THEM.

BUT THERE'S -- BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO AN ISSUE THEY JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH, THEIR OWN BEHAVIOR HAS BROUGHT JAPAN AND KOREA TOGETHER, TO TRY TO WORK WITH THE UNITED STATES ON A SUSTAINABLE POLICY TOWARDS CHINA GOING FORWARD.

>> YEAH.

WE CAN EXPECT THE TOPIC OF UKRAINE TO COME UP, AS WELL.

JAPAN'S PRIME MINISTER AT A SUMMIT IN SINGAPORE LAST JUNE SAID, QUOTE, UKRAINE TODAY MAY BE THE EAST ASIA OF TOMORROW.

KATHLEEN STEPHENS, WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> WELL, OUR NEXT GUESTS BELIEVE INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION IS THE KEY TO MANAGING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

FOUNDER OF THE EURASIA GROUP IAN BREMMER, AND MUSTAFA SULEYMAN DISCUSSING WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

IAN BREMMER, MUST THAT FA SULEMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU HAVE THE PIECE THAT CAME OUT, CALLED "THE A.I.

POWER PARADOX."

LET ME START WITH IAN.

WHAT DOES THAT TITLE MEAN?

>> WELL, IT MEANS THAT, FOR MY LIFETIME, WHEN I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT POWER AROUND THE WORLD, I THOUGHT IN TERMS OF GOVERNMENTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, A YEAR AGO, YOU TALKED TO A HEAD OF STATE, YOU TALKED TO THE HEAD OF THE U.N., THE IMF, THOSE ORGANIZATIONS, THEY WEREN'T ASKING YOU ABOUT A.I., NOW THEY ARE.

IT'S A TOP PRIORITY.

I'VE THEN SEEN THAT BEFORE.

AND YET, THE ACTORS THAT ACTUAL LY MARTIAL CONTROL, SOVEREIGNTY OVER ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, NOT GOVERNMENTS.

THEY'RE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

THEY'RE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES, SO THE MOST GRA MATIC GEOPOLITICAL CHANGE IN MY LIFETIME HAPPENS TO BE ONE THAT'S DEVELOPED COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE GOVERNMENTS THAT CONTROL, THAT HAVE CONTROLLED POWER, AND IT'S THE ONE PIECE THAT I'VE PUT TOGETHER THAT I FELT INCAPABLE OF DOING MYSELF, PRECISELY BECAUSE I'M A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, I'M NOT A TECHNOLOGIST.

SO, WE REALLY HAD TO PUT OUR HEADS TOGETHER HERE.

>> LET ME TURN TO MUSTAFA, THEN, ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY.

YOU HAVE A BOOK COMING OUT CALLED "THE COMING WAVE" AND I'VE READ IT, IT EXPLAINS THE TECHNOLOGY IN DEPTH ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, BUT TELL US, WHAT WILL IT DO TO SOCIETY AND HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE?

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A DOZEN YEARS FROM NOW, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT NEXT YEAR?

>> I THINK WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN THE NEXT DECADE.

EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD GETTING ACCESS TO AN INTELLIGENCE AGENT THAT IS AS GOOD AS THE TOP PROFESSOR, THE MOST KIND AND SUPPORTIVE COACH OR COUNSELOR, AS GOOD AS THE VERY BEST RESEARCH ASSISTANT THAT YOU MIGHT WANT AS A SCIENTIST IN YOUR LAB HELPING YOU TO SYNTHESIZE INFORMATION, PROVIDE YOU WITH SUMMARIES AND REPORTS.

THINK OF IT AS A TURBOCHARGER TO EVERYTHING WE MIGHT DO IN THE WORLD.

HAVING THE VERY BEST CHIEF OF STAFF IN YOUR POCKET.

EVERYBODY IS NOW GOING TO GET ACCESS TO THIS NEW TOOL, JUST AS OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, EVERYBODY IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD HAS GOT ACCESS TO SMARTPHONES, NO MATTER HOW RICH YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU'RE A BILLIONAIRE OR WHETHER YOU OWN 20,000 BUCKS A YEAR, WE ALL GET THE SAME SUPER HIGH QUALITY SMARTPHONE.

AND THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT, THE TOP BILLION OR SO OF US.

WE'RE ON THE SAME TRAJECTORY FOR ACCESS TO INTELLIGENCE.

>> WHY SHOULD WE BE WORRIED THEN?

>> I THINK JUST AS IT AMPLIFIES THE GOOD ACTORS, JUST AS IT FUNCTIONS AS A TEACHER AND A SUPPORT AND A MOTIVATOR AND AN EDUCATOR, PEOPLE WITH BAD INTENTIONS WILL ALSO USE IT TO HELP GO ABOUT THEIR GOALS.

RIGHT?

THESE ARE TOOLS THAT ARE FOR SURE GOING TO BE USED TO SPREAD MISINFORMATION, THEY'RE GOING TO BE USED TO DRIVE GREATER WEDGES BETWEEN US AS SOCIETIES, TO MAKE US FEAR ONE ANOTHER.

THEY'RE FOR SURE GOING TO BE USED TO MAKE CYBER ATTACKS EASIER.

I'VE SEEN EXPERIMENTAL TEST USE CASES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN USING LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS AS COACHES FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF BIO WEAPONS.

THIS MEANS THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE THE SAME UNDERGRADUATE LEVEL SKILLS IN BIOLOGY TO SYNTHESIZE COMPOUNDS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE THIS AID ALONGSIDE UP.

IT REDUCES THE BARRIER TO ENTRY TO BE ABLE TO CAUSE CHAOS.

AND THAT'S POTENTIALLY EXTREMELY DISRUPTIVE.

>> SO, IAN, YOUR GROUP, AND YOU'RE CONSULTING, THE WRITING YOU'VE DONE, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT HOW GEOPOLITICS WORKS, AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN BASED ON NATION STATES.

HOW COUNTRIES DEAL WITH ONE ANOTHER AND IN THIS PIECE, YOU ALL WRITE THAT IT CAN'T BE REGULATED, A.I., THE WAY PREVIOUS TECHNOLOGIES HAVE BEEN REGULATED.

I JUST WATCHED "OPPENHEIMER," WHY IS IT MORE DIFFICULT THAN THE ATOM BOMB?

WE REGULATED THAT.

>> IT WAS VERY COMPLEX TO GET YOUR HANDS ON THE MATERIAL, IT REQUIRED A LOT OF EXPERTISE, THERE WERE VERY DIFFERENT COMPONENTS OF IT.

BASICALLY, ONLY GOVERNMENTS WERE REALLY CAPABLE OF ACTORS OF GETTING AHOLD OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND THE AMERICANS AND THE SOVIETS, EVEN THOUGH WE HATED EACH OTHER, WERE PREPARED TO TALK TO EACH OTHER, BECAUSE WE RECOGNIZED THE TERRIBLE DANGERS THAT A NUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON WOULD RELAY.

AS YOU JUST HEARD FROM MUSTAFA, THERE ARE ASPECTS OF A.I.

IN THE WRONG HANDS THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF ANALOGIES TO HOW WE THINK OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, EXCEPT THAT THE PROLIFERATION DANGER OF A.I.

IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ANYBODY WITH A SMARTPHONE, OR, YOU KNOW, WITH A DECENT COMPUTER AT THEIR HANDS.

AND THEY'RE NOT JUST STATE ACTORS, THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY NONSTATE ACTORS.

SO, GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS NOT ONLY VERY FAST-MOVING, AND IT'S MASSIVELY PROLIFERATED, BUT ALSO, THAT THE GOVERNMENTS THEMSELVES ARE NOT IN A POSITION, THEY DON'T HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE ALGORITHMS DO.

IT'S THE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES.

SO, THE GOVERNANCE ITSELF IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE A HYBRID MODEL OF TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES AND GOVERNMENTS TOGETHER.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT MEANS IT'S TREATY SIGNATORIES, BUT YOU WON'T HAVE GOVERNMENTS THAT WILL BE ABLE TO DRIVE THIS REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT, THESE NEW INSTITUTIONS THEMSELVES.

THAT WILL BE A ROAD TO RUIN.

>> AFTER WORLD WAR II, AFTER THE DROPPING OF THE ATOM BOMB, WE CREATED THESE GREAT GOVERNANCE STRUCTURES, LIKE THE UNITED NATIONS, OR, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD BANK, MANY OTHER THINGS, NATO, THAT DID IT.

IT'S ALL GOVERNMENTS AT THAT TABLE.

ARE YOU ACTUALLY, IAN, ENVISIONS SORT OF A NEW TYPE OF UNITED NATIONS ORGANIZATION THAT HAS BOTH GOOGLE AND META AND AMAZON, AS WELL AS THE U.S. AND CHINA ANDSITTING AT THE SAME TABLE?

>> WE'RE ENVISIONING A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE IS SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE THE UNITED NATIONS INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

WALTER, THE ONE REASON WHY WE NOW ALL AGREE THAT THERE'S 1.2 DEGREES OF GLOBAL WARMING, DESPITE ALL OF THE FAKE NEWS AND DISINFORMATION, IS BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD GOVERNMENTS AND SCIENTISTS AND CORPORATE LEADERS AND PUBLIC POLICY TYPES FROM EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ALL TOGETHER TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHERE CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING.

SO, WE KNOW HOW MANY PARTICLES OF CARBON ARE IN THE ATMOSPHERE, WE KNOW HOW MUCH METHANE, WE KNOW THE DEFORESTATION.

THAT'S A CRITICAL, CRITICAL ASPECT OF FIGHTING CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND WITH A.I., SO MUCH MORE URGENT AND FAST-MOVING, YOU WILL NEED AN ORGANIZATION LIKE THAT, MULTISTAKEHOLDER.

BUFF ANOTHER THING WE'RE CALLING FOR IS A TECHNO-CREDENTIAL APPROACH.

LIKE YOU SEE IN THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL COMMUNITY.

A GEOTECHNOLOGY STABILITY BOARD, WHERE YOU WILL HAVE GOVERNMENTS AND NONSTATE ACTORS TOGETHER BEING ABLE TO RESPOND TO CRISES IN REAL-TIME ALSO THEY OCCUR.

THIS ISN'T LIKE THE UNITED NATIONS, THIS IS MORE LIKE HOW THE WORLD RESPONDED TO THE 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS.

AND WHERE EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTS, THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA ARE MEMBERS OF THE IMF, THE BANK OF INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS.

YOU WILL NEED A.I.

INSTITUTIONS TO BE SIMILARLY INCLUSIVE AND SIMILARLY NONPOLITICIZED, TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO CHALLENGES THAT ARE FUNDAMENTALLY GLOBAL.

>> WELL, MUSTAFA, YOU TALK ABOUT THREE DIFFERENT LAYERS OF GOVERNANCE, REGIMES THAT YOU NEED, AND THE FIRST ONE IS -- SOMETHING TO ESTABLISH JUST WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE ESTABLISHED IN TERMS OF THE FACTS OF THE TECHNOLOGY?

>> SO, AN INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON A.I.

WOULD BE ONE THAT HAS ACCESS TO ALL OF THE LARGEST COMMERCIAL LABS AND ACADEMIC LABS, ALL AROUND THE WORLD, DEVELOPING THESE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS.

THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO PROBE THEM AND TEST THEM, AUDIT THEM, LOOK AT WHAT DATA, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE USING TO DO TRAINING, AND TRY TO FIND WEAKNESSES, AND MODES IN THE MODELS.

ONCE THEY DISCOVER THOSE, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO SHARE THOSE WITH OTHER NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL COMMERCIAL COME PETTER TOS, IN ORDER TO IMPROVE THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THOSE MODELS.

BUT THE FIRST STEP IS REALLY JUST UNDERSTANDING AND AUDITING AND ESTABLISHING THE FACT PATTERN OF, WHAT ARE THE BOUNDARIES THAT THESE MODELS CAN'T CROSS TODAY?

AND WHERE MIGHT THEY BE HELDED IN THE FUTURE?

>> AND THE SECOND STEP, IAN, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO YOUR PIECE, IS TO PREVENT AN ARMS RACE.

HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

>> YOU'D THINK IT WOULD BE HARD, BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA, WE DON'T EVEN HAVE DIRECT HIGH LEVEL MILITARY TO MILITARY CONVERSATIONS TODAY.

AND YET, WALTER, AS YOU KNOW AND I KNOW, DURING THE COLD WAR, THE AMERICANS AND THE SOVIETS, WITH MUCH LESS IN COMMON, WITH VIRTUALLY NO INTERDEPENDENCE BETWEEN THE TWO GREAT COUNTRIES, NONETHELESS WORKED TOGETHER TO ENSURE THAT WE UNDERSTOOD WHAT KIND OF NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES WE WERE DEVELOPING, AND WE WERE PUTTING LIMITS ON THEM.

SO, WHEN I LOOK, WHEN MUSTAFA AND I LOOK AT HOW FAST A.I.

IS BEING DEPLOYED, AND THE FACT THAT EVERYTHING IS DUAL USE.

THESE GENERAL MODELS, YOU CAN USE THEM FOR CIVILIAN PURPOSES, AND THE SAME MODELS, YOU CAN USE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY.

IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF HOW HARD IT'S GOING TO BE TO TALK WITH THE CHINESE, IT'S THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO ALTERNATIVE.

I MEAN, THE TWO COUNTRIES AND THEIR TECHNOLOGY CORPORATIONS THAT ARE DRIVING THESE EXISTENTIALLY IMPORTANT, FOR GOOD AND POTENTIALLY FOR BAD TECHNOLOGIES, IF THEY DON'T TALK WITH EACH OTHER, IF THEY DON'T CREATE MECHANISMS TO ENGAGE WITH EACH OTHER AROUND THE DANGERS OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, THEN, WE'RE GOING TO END UP DESTROYING EACH OTHER.

>> LET ME READ A SENTENCE FROM YOUR PIECE THAT JUMPED OUT, WHICH IS, "A.I.

WILL EMPOWER THOSE WHO WIELD IT TO SURVEY, TO DECEIVE, AND EVEN CONTROL POPULATIONS."

ONE ASSUMES COMPANIES COULD DO THAT, BUT ALSO NATION STATES COULD DO THAT.

IT COULD SUPERCHARGE, YOU SAY, THE COLLECTION OF THE USE OF PERSONAL DATA IN DEMOCRACIES AND SHARPEN THE TOOLS OF REPRESSION THAT AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS USE TO SUBDUE THEIR POPULOUS.

TELL ME WHERE YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING, AND MAYBE -- AND THEN I'LL ASK IAN TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST THE WAY THE UNITED STATES MIGHT BE DOING THIS, AND WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN IN CHINA.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK THAT THE WAY TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS THAT IT ACTUALLY 'EM POWERS AND AMPLIFIES POWER WHEREVER IT IS.

SO, WHATEVER THE AGENDA, IT IS A TOOL FOR REDUCING THE BARRIER TO ENTRY TO ACTION IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE TOO IMAGINATIVE TO SEE HOW THIS IS BEING MISUSED IN CHINA, OR USED FOR LARGE-SCALE STATE SURVEILLANCE.

I MEAN, THESE ARE TOOLS THAT BASICALLY PROCESS VAST AMOUNTS OF INFORMATION, ENABLING, YOU KNOW, TO MAKE SENSE OF VIDEO STREAM DATA, TRACK FACES, IDENTIFY PEOPLE AS THEY'RE MOVING AROUND CITIES.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS A VERY DYSTOPIAN AND DARK OUTCOME, ONE THAT WE WANT TO AVOID.

AND THE CHALLENGES THAT -- HARNESSING THE UPSIDE WHILE MITIGATING THE DOWNSIDES IS GOING TO BE THE STORY OF THE NEXT 20 YEARS.

AND SOME STATES WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS TO ENTRENCH THEIR AUTHORITARIANISM, SO, WE IN THE WEST HAVE TO DEFEND OUR VALUES, AND NOT SLIP INTO AUTHORITARIANISM.

THAT'S GOING TO BE OUR GREAT CHALLENGE, IS TO WITHSTAND THAT PRESSURE TO WANT TO SURVEIL EVERYTHING.

>> AND THE CHINESE -- THE CHINESE ARE CERTAINLY AWARE OF THE POWER OF A.I.

TO INCREASE THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO SURVEIL, REPRESS, AND NUDGE THEIR POPULATION INTO SO-CALLED PATRIOTIC BEHAVIORS.

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS VIRTUALLY DONE NONE OF THAT DOMESTICALLY, IT'S BEEN THIS THE HANDS OF CORPORATE ACTORS.

THOSE CORPORATE ACTORS ARE NOT INTERESTED IN SUBVERTING DEMOCRACY, BUT POLARIZATION HAS HAPPENED TO BE VERY ALIGNED WITH THEIR COMMERCIAL AND BUSINESS MODELS, AS THEY'RE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GENERATE MORE CLICKS, MORE ENGAGEMENT, BUILD MORE DATA.

SO, THE QUESTION IS GOING TO BE, HOW WILL THE UNITED STATES, THE EUROPEANS, AND OTHER GOVERNMENTS OSTENSIBLY DRIVEN BY RULE OF LAW WORK TOGETHER WITH THESE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES TO HARNESS THE PRODUCTIVITY THAT COMES FROM A.I., WITHOUT SLIPPING INTO AUTHORITARIANISM, BECAUSE AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE EASIEST WAY FOR GOVERNMENTS TO ALIGN WITH TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES AROUND A.I.

IS TO FORGET ABOUT THE COMMON INTEREST AND WILL OF THE AVERAGE CITIZEN.

IT WILL BE TO USE THE POWER TO SURVEIL.

TO USE THE POWER TO CONTROL AND TO NUDGE.

AND THAT IS -- THAT'S CONTRARY TO EVERYTHING THAT WE ARE AS CITIZENS OF A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

>> MUSTAFA, YOU WERE AT THE MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN WHEN HE CONVENED THE PIONEERS OF A.I., INCLUDING YOURSELF, TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHAT DID YOU SAID TO HIM AND WHAT WAS THAT MEETING LIKE?

>> THE PRESIDENT WAS ACTUALLY PRETTY WELL-BRIEFED ON THIS ISSUE.

WE SPENT QUITE A LONG TIME TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE DETAILS OF WHAT WE WOULD DO IN PRACTICE TOGETHER.

HE WAS VERY KEEN THAT WE COOPERATE WITH ONE ANOTHER AS COMPETITIVE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES.

ONE OF THE WAYS THAT HE'S PROPOSED THAT WE DO THAT IS THAT WE ESTABLISH BEST PRACTICES FOR SHARING INFORMATION ABOUT THE WEAKNESSES OF OUR OWN MODELS, BECAUSE IF MY -- IF I IDENTIFY THAT MY LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL IS VULNERABLE TO A CERTAIN TYPE OF EXPLOIT, IT MIGHT BE THAT'S IT GOOD AT GENERATING ATTACKS IN A CYBER SECURITY THREAT ENVIRONMENT, THEN I SHOULD SHARE THAT WITH MY COMPETITORS AND WITH OTHER NATION STATES, POTENTIALLY, SO THAT THEY CAN BATCH UP THOSE WEAKNESSES.

AND THAT'S THE KIND OF PROACTIVE, I THINK, BEHAVIOR THAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF EVERYBODY.

AND ONE OF THE PROPOSALS THAT CAME OUT OF THE MEETING WITH BIDEN.

HE WAS ACTUALLY VERY -- I WAS SURPRISED, ACTUALLY, AT HOW FORWARD-THINKING HE WAS AND THE ADMINISTRATION WAS ON THIS ISSUE.

>> AND IAN, IS THIS SOMETHING WHERE WE CAN FIND COMMON GROUND WITH CHINA?

AND MIGHT EVEN BE A WAY THAT WE CAN WORK TOGETHER?

OR ARE WE INEVITABLY GOING TO BE IN CONFLICT OVER THIS?

>> NOT TOMORROW, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT AS THIS -- THIS TECHNOLOGY PROLIFERATES INTO THE HANDS OF MORE AND MORE PRIVATE SECTOR ACTORS, INTO THE HANDS OF INDIVIDUALS THAT CAN RUN THESE MODELS ON THEIR SMARTPHONES, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO SUDDENLY SEE THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA WITH VERY SIMILAR CHALLENGES.

THEY'RE BOTH GOING TO WANT TO MAINTAIN SOVEREIGNTY.

THE U.S. AND CHINA HAS AN INTEREST IN ENSURES THAT CRYPTO-CURRENCIES TONIGHT THREATEN CURRENCIES TO TAKE AWAY GOVERNANCE AND POWER FROM THE STATE.

A.I.

WILL DO THAT IN SPADES.

AND SO I DO BELIEVE THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT AVOIDING A COLD WAR, IT'S ALSO ABOUT MAINTAINING STABILITY OF THE EXISTING SYSTEM, AND IN THAT REGARD, CHINA HAS PROBABLY SOON TO BE THE LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD, PART OF A GLOBALIZED TRADE SYSTEM, A COUNTRY THAT IS THE LARGEST CREDITOR FOR THE DEVELOPING WORLD, I MEAN, CHINA'S JUST AS MUCH A PART OF INCUMBENCY FOR WANTING THE PRESENT SYSTEM TO SUSTAIN ITSELF, AS THE UNITED STATES.

THIS ISN'T RUSSIA.

THIS ISN'T NORTH KOREA.

IT'S NOT A ROGUE STATE.

AND SO, IN THAT REGARD, THESE TWO COUNTRIES DO HAVE VERY STRONG INTERESTS TO ULTIMATELY WORK TOGETHER AROUND A.I.

UNFORTUNATELY, DOMESTIC POLITICS RIGHT NOW ARE ALL POINTED IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION, WHICH I'M SURE IS PART OF WHY YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION.

I DO THINK IT WILL LIKELY TAKE A FEW SLAPS IN THE FACE, SOME CRISES THAT OCCUR AROUND A.I., BEFORE IT BECOMES OBVIOUS HOW -- JUST HOW FAR THE AMERICANS AND THE CHINESE WORK TOGETHER, AND MUSTAFA AND I, OUR PURPOSE IN THIS PIECE IS TO REALLY TRY TO GET SOME OF THE WORLD LEADERS TO START THINKING IN THESE WAYS BEFORE THAT CRISIS OCCURS, SO IT'S OBVIOUSLY HOW WE PICK IT UP.

>> IAN BREMMER, MUSTAFA SULEYMAN, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AND FOR WRITING THIS PIECE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, IT'S BEEN GREAT.

>>> AND FINALLY, JAY-Z MAY HAVE 99 PROBLEMS, BUT A LIBRARY CARD AIN'T ONE.

TO MARK THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF HIP HOP, BROOKLYN PUBLIC LIBRARY HAS RELEASED 13 LIMITED EDITION LIBRARY CARDS FEATURING ARTWORK FROM JAY-Z ALBUMS.

THE INITIATIVE HAS RESULTED IN 14,000 NEW MEMBERSHIPS, PROVING, PERHAPS, AS THE SONG GOES, "BROOKLYN GO HARD."

THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE AND FINALLIES.

AND THIS IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.