>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I LOVE IT DEEPLY.

I BELIEVE IT IS A PARADISE.

>> AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE RUNNING MATE OF ECUADOR'S MURDERED CANDIDATE, HER CONCERN FOR THE COUNTRY AND LATIN AMERICA'S FUTURE.

>>> THEN MY CONVERSATION WITH JORGE CASTANEDA, WHY HE THINKS THE U.S. HAS BEEN FAILING LATIN DEMOCRACIES.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- ♪ ♪ NIGHT AND THE DAY ♪ ALL OF THE WHILE I WAS CALLING YOUR NAME ♪ >> GRJON BATISTE SITTING DOWN WH MICHEL MARTIN, THEY DISCUSS HIS HIGHLY ANTICIPATED NEW ALBUM, WORLD MUSIC RADIO.

>>> AND -- >> I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THE ONLY BLACK TARTIST, THERE'S NO JOY IN THAT.

>> AND AS THE TRAIL BLAZING WORK OF LUBAINA HIMID RETURNS TO THE SPOTLIGHT WITH TWO NEW SHOWS, WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S COLORFUL CONVERSATION WITH THE CELEBRATED ARTIST.

"AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT, TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP, RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ONCE A PEACEFUL PARADISE FAMED AS THE GATEWAY TO THE GALAPAGOS ISLANDS, ECUADOR IS NOW DRAWING THE GLOBAL SPOTLIGHT FOR A VERY DIFFERENT REASON.

AS IT WRESTLES WITH A SURGE IN VIOLENT CRIME.

THREE POLITICIANS HAVE BEEN ASSASSINATED THERE WITHIN THE LAST MONTH ALONE, WITH THE MURDER OF PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, FERNANDO VILLAVICENCIO SHOCKING THE WORLD.

THIS VIOLENT UPTICK ISN'T LIMITED TO ECUADOR.

WHILE DRUG CARTELS HAVE LONG FUELED BRUTALITY IN NEARBY MEXICO.

THE BLOODSHED IS SPREADING ALL THE WAY SOUTH IMPACTING COUNTRIES LIKE CHILE AND ARGENTINA.

IN AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, RAFAEL ROMO SAT DOWN WITH THE FORMER RUNNING MATE OF ECUADOR'S MURDERED PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

SHE TOLD HIM HOW HER LIFE HAS BEEN SINCE THAT MOMENT AND WHY SHE FEARS FOR THE FUTURE OF HER COUNTRY.

>> I THINK ANY OTHER ECUADORIAN IS AT THE RISK OF GETTING SHOT RIGHT NOW IN THE STREET.

>> Reporter: SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE AS HIS RUNNING MATE, SHOULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT NEXT TO ECUADORIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, FERNANDO VILLAVICENCIO WHEN HE WAS SHOT LAST WEDNESDAY AS HE WAS LEAVING A RALLY IN THE CAPITAL.

>> FERNANDO WAS SHOT THREE TIMES IN THE HEAD.

>> HAS IT SUNK IN THAT YOU COULD HAVE DIED BECAUSE YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE RIGHT NEXT TO FERNANDO THAT NIGHT WHEN HE WAS SHOT DEAD.

>> YES.

YES, I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE NEXT TO HIM GETTING INSIDE THE CAR THAT HAD NO PROTECTION AGAINST BULLETS, AND WE WORE NO BULLET PROOF VESTS BECAUSE WE WERE TRYING TO GET THE PEOPLE THIS MESSAGE THAT WE HAD TO BE BRAVE.

>> IN AN EXCLUSIVE CNN INTERVIEW AT A LOCATION WE'RE NOT DISCLOSING FOR HER SAFETY, GONZALEZ SAID HIS MURDER IS ANOTHER GRUESOME AND SHOCKING EXAMPLE OF HOW FRAGILE DEMOCRACY IS IN LATIN AMERICA AS A REGION, BUT LIVING IN FEAR, SHE SAYS IS NOT AN OPTION.

>> I WANT TO CHANGE THIS COUNTRY.

I WANT THIS COUNTRY TO BE A PLACE OF PEACE A PRODUCTIVE COUNTRY, WE'RE KNOWN AROUND THE WORLD FOR OUR BANANAS, OUR SHRIMPS, OUR COFFEES.

I LOVE ECUADOR DEEPLY.

I BELIEVE ECUADOR IS A PARADISE AND THEY TURNED IT INTO HELL.

>> Reporter:VILLE VA SENSE YA WAS A 59-YEAR-OLD LAWMAKER IN THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY KNOWN FOR BEING OUTSPOKEN ABOUT CORRUPTION AND VIOLENCE CAUSED BUT DRUG TRAFFICKING IN THE COUNTRY.

IN MAY HE TOLD CNN IN ESPANOL THAT ECUADOR HAD BECOME A NARCO STATE, HIS POLITICAL PLATFORM WAS CENTERED ON LEADING A FIGHT AGAINST WHAT HE CALLED THE POLITICAL MAFIA.

>> WE KNEW IT WAS -- THERE WAS A HIGH RISK OF HIM GETTING ATTACKED BY THE SAME MAFIA AND THE SAME ORGANIZED CRIME AND THE SAME POLITICIANS THAT ARE LINKED WITH THIS ORGANIZED INTERNATIONAL CRIME.

>> Reporter: AFTER THE ASSASSINATION, THE CURRENT ECUADORIAN PRESIDENT DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY FOR 60 DAYS.

ON SATURDAY 4,000 MEMBERS OF THE ECUADORIAN POLICE AND MILITARY RAIDED A NOTORIOUS PRISON AND TRANSFERRED AN ALLEGED LEADER OF A LOCAL DRUG GANG TO ANOTHER FACILITY.

>> GONZALEZ SAYS ORGANIZED CRIME IS A REGIONAL PROBLEM THAT REQUIRES A REGIONAL SOLUTION.

>> HOW DOES ECUADOR SOLVE ITS SECURITY PROBLEM?

IS IT SOMETHING THAT ECUADOR CAN DO BY ITSELF, OR DOES IT NEED HELP FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY?

>> WE NEED TEAM WORK FROM INTERNATIONAL INTELLIGENCE TO FIND OUT HOW TO STOP THIS.

COCAINE IS DONE IN COLOMBIA, AND GETS THROUGH ECUADOR, THROUGH OUR COASTS WHERE IT GOES BACK TO MEXICO AND THEN IT'S DELIVERED TO THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE.

>> ECUADORIANS GO TO THE POLLS ON AUGUST 20th FOR THE FIRST ROUND OF AN ELECTION TO CHOOSE A NEW PRESIDENT, BUT EVEN SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS VOTING IS AN ACT OF COURAGE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND MANY MAY DECIDE TO STAY HOME.

>> FOR MORE ON ECUADOR AND THE WIDER PICTURE IN LATIN AMERICA, I SPOKE WITH A FORMER MEXICAN FOREIGN MINISTER, JORGE CAST CASTANEDA, AND WE DISCUSSED THE VIOLENCE, CORRUPTION, AND ECONOMIC WOES THAT ARE PLAGUING COUNTRIES ACROSS THE CONTINENT.

MR. FOREIGN MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

LET'S START WITH THE NEWS OUT OF ECUADOR AND THAT STUNNING ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE LAST WEEK, FERNANDO VILLAVICENCIO, TEN DAYS BEFORE THE FIRST ROUND OF ELECTIONS.

AS YOU KNOW, HIS SLOGAN FOR CAMPAIGNING WAS IT'S TIME FOR THE BRAVE.

SINCE THEN, SIX SUSPECTS WERE ARRESTED, ALL FOREIGN MEMBERS OF ORGANIZED CRIME ORGANIZATIONS BELIEVED TO BE COLOMBIANS.

HIS RUNNING MATE SAID THIS TO CNN.

THIS IS A DISTURBING MOMENT FOR THE WHOLE REGION AND EVENTUALLY FOR THE WORLD'S DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT?

AND WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT STUNNING NEWS OF HIS ASSASSINATION?

>> WELL, I THINK SHE HAS A POINT, BIANNA, IN THE SENSE THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION THAT COMES, BY THE WAY, IN AN UNSCHEDULED MANNER.

SITTING PRESIDENT LASSO STILL HAD TWO YEARS TO SERVE BUT DECIDED LEGALLY, CONSTITUTIONALLY TO CALL FOR EARLIER ELECTIONS AND NOT RUN HIMSELF, AND SO THIS IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, IN A COUNTRY IN LATIN AMERICA THAT IS A DEMOCRACY AND A FUNCTIONING ONE, IS A VERY ALARMING SIGN, AND IT'S ALARMING ALSO BECAUSE IT IS CLEARLY THE PENETRATION OF ELECTORAL POLITICS, OF DEMOCRATIC RULE BY THE CARTELS.

WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY YET AND WE MAY NEVADA KNER KNOW WHICH CARTD EXACTLY WHY, BUT IT SEEMS PRETTY CLEAR THAT THIS ASSASSINATION HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH ORGANIZED CRIME, WITH THE DRUG TRADE, ET CETERA.

ECUADOR HAS BEEN PLAGUED BY THIS NOW FOR SEVERAL YEARS BECAUSE IT'S CAUGHT BETWEEN PERU AND COLOMBIA, THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT COCAINE PRODUCERS.

IT IS SENDING DRUGS FROM ECUADOR EITHER THROUGH BRAZIL TO EUROPE OR THROUGH THE GALAPAGOS ISLANDS TO MEXICO AND THEN TO THE UNITED STATES.

THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER, I THINK HIS RUNNING MATE IS QUITE RIGHT IN BEING SO WORRIED.

>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT ECUADOR ONCE BEING KNOWN AS AN ISLAND OF PEACE, AND AS YOU SAID, WE'VE SEEN STARK, A VAST INCREASE IN VIOLENCE AND CRIME THIS THAT COUNTRY.

LET ME JUST GIVE YOU SOME STATISTICS.

THE HOMICIDE RATE IN ECUADOR HAS RISEN FROM 5 PER 100,000 INHABITANTS IN 2016 TO 25 PER 100,000 LAST YEAR.

WHAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE SPIKE IN CRIME SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO THESE DRUG CARTELS?

>> WELL, IT'S DIFFERENT IN EACH COUNTRY.

THE CASE OF ECUADOR, COLOMBIA, AND TO A POINT PERU IS MUCH MORE LINKED TO COCAINE, WHICH IS THE TRADITIONAL DRUG PRODUCED IN THOSE COUNTRIES AND SHIPPED NOW THE LAST FEW YEARS THROUGH ECUADOR.

THE CASE OF MEXICO WITH FENTANYL, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT -- HAS A DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODEL AND ALSO LEADS TO HIGH DEGREES OF VIOLENCE.

MEXICO'S HOMICIDE RATE IS AND 25 PER 100,000.

THAT IS ABOUT THE SAME AS ECUADOR'S, EXCEPT THAT WE'VE HAD THAT RATE FOR SEVERAL YEARS NOW IN MEXICO.

SO YES, THERE IS AN ISSUE OF THE ENORMOUS POWER AND THE INTERNATIONALIZATION OF THE CARTELS THROUGHOUT SOUTH AMERICA.

WE HAVE COUNTRIES EVEN LIKE CHILE AND ARGENTINA TRADITIONALLY VERY PEACEFUL, VERY NON-VIOLENT COUNTRIES WITH VERY LOW LEVELS OF HOMICIDES PER 100,000 INHABITANTS WHERE PEOPLE NOW ARE WORRIED OR EVEN ALARMED BY THE DEGREE OF VIOLENCE.

IT'S STILL MUCH LOWER THAN IN ECUADOR, THAN IN MEXICO, THAN IN COLOMBIA, BUT IT IS CHANGING, AND THIS HAS LARGELY TO DO WITH THE INTERNATIONALIZATION OF THE DRUG TRADE AND OF THE INTERNATIONAL CARTELS, WHETHER THEY WERE ORIGINALLY ROOTED IN MEXICO OR IN COLOMBIA, NOW THEY'RE EVERYWHERE.

THEY'RE LIKE TRANSNATIONAL CORPORATIONS.

WHO EXACTLY DO THEY BELONG TO?

OR WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?

WE DON'T KNOW ANYMORE.

IT'S LIKE THE BIG LARGE, MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS, YOU THINK, ARE MOST EFFECTIVE HERE IN ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE?

>> WELL, THERE ARE DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS, I THINK, FOR DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

IN THE CASE OF ECUADOR, CLEARLY THEY HAVE TO FIND SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT OR NEGOTIATION WITH THEIR TWO NEIGHBORS, THE PERUVIANS AND THE COLOMBIANS SO THAT THE THREE GOVERNMENTS ARE ABLE TO NO LONGER USE ECUADOR AS A PLATFORM AND ALSO FOR ECUADOR TO HAVE A STRONGER POLICE FORCE THAT IS ABLE TO LET IT COPE WITH THE SIZE, THE MAGNITUDE OF THE CARTELS THAT ARE NOW OPERATING IN THAT SMALL COUNTRY AND THAT WERE NOT OPERATING THERE BEFORE.

FOR THEM THIS IS A RELATIVELY NEW PHENOMENON FIVE OR SIX YEARS BACK.

THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT PREPARED TO DEAL WITH THIS.

IN THE CASE OF OTHER COUNTRIES, THERE IS A REAL ISSUE ABOUT WHETHER THE WAR ON TDRUGS HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL, AND MOST PEOPLE AT THIS STAGE BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN A FAILURE.

IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR MORE THAN 50 YEARS SENSE PRESIDENT NIXON IN THE UNITED STATES DECLARED THE WAR ON DRUGS IN 1971, AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY A FAILURE.

MORE PEOPLE ARE DYING OF OPIOID J OVERDOSES IN THE UNITED STATES THAN EVER BEFORE AFTER MORE THAN 50 YEARS OF A WAR ON DRUGS WAGED LARGELY OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES, BUT AT THE URGING OF THE UNITED STATES IN MEXICO, IN COLO COL COLOMBIA, IN PERU, IN BOLIVIA, NOW THE CASE OF ECUADOR.

IT'S A VERY COMPLEX PROBLEM, BUT CLEARLY THE WAR ON DRUGS HAS FAILED.

SO THEN THE QUESTION IS WHAT IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE WAR ON DRUGS?

ONE CLEARLY IS LEGALIZATION OR DECRIMINALIZATION BECAUSE OTHERWISE THIS WILL CONTINUE.

ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE IS MUCH GREATER INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION, AND A THIRD ONE IS THAT THE UNITED STATES DEAL WITH THE CONSUMPTION ISSUE DOMESTICALLY BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT'S WHAT DRIVES ALL OF THIS, THE ENORMOUS U.S. MARKET FOR DRUGS.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, AND THIS IS A CRISIS THAT'S ONLY EXACERBATED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

LET ME TURN TO GUATEMALA AND THEIR CRITICAL ELECTION AS WELL.

ON SUNDAY WE'LL SEE A RUNOFF BETWEEN THE FORMER FIRST LADY VERSUS THE SON OF A FORMER PRESIDENT.

THIS ELECTION HAS BEEN PLAGUED BY ALLEGATIONS OF CORRUPTION AS WELL AND INTERFERENCE IN AND CONCERNS ABOUT THE DEMOCRACY IN THAT COUNTRY MOVING FORWARD.

WHY IS THIS SUCH AN IMPORTANT ELECTION?

WHAT WILL YOU BE WATCHING FOR?

>> IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE REALLY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MANY, MANY YEARS IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE MORE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE THAN THE SON OF DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT GOING BACK TO THE 1940s AND EARLY 1950s HAS A CHANCE OF WINNING.

THIS IS A COUNTRY WHERE MOST OF THE PRESIDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTED OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS HAVE ENDED UP BEING AS CORRUPT AND AS IN THE HANDS OF THE CARTELS AND THE ARMY ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

AREVALO SKS SALES TO BE A DIFFERENT KIND OF PERSON, WHICH IS WHY THEY SEEM TO DERAIL HIS CANDIDACY TO STOP HIM FROM RUNNING, THEN TO STOP HIM FROM MOVING TO THE RUNOFF, AND NOW PERHAPS BETWEEN NOW AND SUNDAY OR AFTER SUNDAY TO STOP HIM FROM WINNING.

HE REALLY DOES REPRESENT AN INTERESTING CHALLENGING ALTERNATIVE TO THE STATUS QUO IN GUATEMALA, AND GUATEMALA'S A VERY IMPORTANT COUNTRY FOR MANY REASONS TO BEGIN WITH BECAUSE IT'S THE GATEWAY TO MEXICO FOR MIGRANTS COMING THROUGH MEXICO TO THE UNITED STATES FROM THE REST OF CENTRAL AMERICA, FROM CUBA, FROM ECUADOR WHERE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF MIGRANTS HAVE LEFT OAF OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS COMING TO MEXICO AND ON TO THE UNITED STATES.

GUATEMALA IS KEY IN THE WHOLE MY MIGRATION EQUATION BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT ON THE BORDER WITH MEXICO, AND SECONDLY, BECAUSE THE TRADITION OF CORRUPTION AND MILITARY INVOLVEMENT AND BY THE CARTELS IN GUATEMALAN ELECTIONS IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE CAN'T BE SURE THAT EVEN IF HE WINS THAT HE'LL ACTUALLY BE ELECTED AND BECOME THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF GUATEMALA.

THAT'S WHAT THE POLLS ARE SUGGESTING RIGHT NOW, THAT HE HAS AN IMPORTANT LEAD, BUT THAT IN GUATEMALA DOESN'T MEAN A WHOLE LOT.

>> YEAH, IT'S INTERESTING, OBVIOUSLY WE'LL BE PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO GUATEMALA, BUT IT'S INTERESTING OVERALL WE'VE SEEN THIS TREND IN LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES, THIS ELECTION OF LEFT WING GOVERNMENTS AND THAT INCLUDES BRAZIL, CHILE AND COLOMBIA, AND THEN THERE WAS THIS SURPRISE OUT OF ARGENTINA OVER THE WEEKEND WHERE THE FAR RIGHT LIBERTARIAN ECONOMIST, PEOPLE COMPARE HIM EVEN TO DONALD TRUMP OF ARGENTINA, JAVIER MILLIER WON THE PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY.

CONSISTENTLY NOW WE SEE THAT COUNTRY PLAGUED WITH ECONOMIC CHALLENGES, INFLATION IS WELL OVER 100%, I BELIEVE ARGENTINA IS THE IMF'S LARGEST DEBTOR.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS SURPRISE OUT OF THE PRIMARY IS AND WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR CANDIDATE?

>> WELL, THE POLLS GOT IT WRONG AS THEY'VE GOTTEN IT WRONG IN MANY PLACES IN LATIN AMERICA AND ELSEWHERE, BY THE WAY, IN RECENT TIMES.

HE WAS EXPECTED TO GET ABOUT 20% OF THE VOTE.

HE GOT 30.

HE CAME IN FIRST IN HIS PRIMARIES BUT HE IS NOT NECESSARILY THE FAVORED CANDIDATE TO WIN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN OCTOBER WITH A POSSIBLE RUNOFF IN NOVEMBER BECAUSE THE OTHER CANDIDATE WHO WILL PROBABLY BE RUNNING AGAINST HIM, THE MAIN CANDIDATE FROM THE CENTER RIGHT PROBABLY HAS A GREATER CHANCE OF WINNING, BUT CLEARLY THIS WAS A REACTION AGAINST THE INCUMBENT GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO AGAINST THE ARGENTINE POLITICAL ELITE OR CASTE AS MILEI CALLS IT THAT HAVE TRDRIVEN THE COUNTRY INTO E GROUND, BUT NOT NOW, FOR THE LAST 100 YEARS OR SO WITH ONE ECONOMIC CRISIS AFTER ANOTHER.

WITH INFLATION NOW RUNNING, AS YOU SAY, OVER 100% YEARLY, WITH THE DEVALUATION OF THE DOLLAR BEING A DAILY OCCURRENCE, ARGENTINES ARE FED UP, AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE BOUGHT ON TO MILEI'S RATHER ECCENTRIC IDEAS RANGING FROM DOLLARIZING THE ECONOMY COMPLETELY LIKE ECUADOR OR EL SALVADOR OR PANAMA, HBUT WHICH ARE MUCH SMALLER COUNTRIES, OR ELIMINATING OR BURNING DOWN LIKE HE SAYS THE CENTRAL BANK, OR EVEN CREATING A MARKET FOR ORGAN DONORS OR ORGAN SELLERS, WHICH IS A SOMEWHAT EXTREME PROPOSAL JUDGED BY ANY STANDARD.

I THINK IT'S MORE A REACTION AGAINST THE INCUMBENT GOVERNMENT THAN PREVIOUS ONE, PEOPLE ARE FED UP.

>> AND THEY'VE BEEN PLAGUED WITH ECONOMIC CHALLENGES, AS YOU SAID, FOR DECADES.

LET ME ASK YOU THE BROADER PICTURE ABOUT THE UNITED STATES' RELATIONSHIP WITH LATIN AMERICA.

IN 2020 YOU WROTE AN OPINION PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" IN ADDRESSING WHAT YOU SAID COULD BE SOME OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S OUTCOMES IN TERMS OF FOCUSING ON LATIN AMERICA.

YOU WROTE, BIDEN CAN INSPIRE LATIN AMERICA, A DOMESTIC TRANSFORMATION OF THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE A TREMENDOUS IMPACT IN THE REGION.

THREE YEARS LATER AS WE'RE APPROACHING ANOTHER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, DID YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING AND COMING TO FRUITION?

HOW WOULD YOU RATE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S APPROACH TO THE REGION?

>> WELL, I THINK IT HAS BEEN A BIT DISAPPOINTING, NOT NECES NECESSARILY AND ONLY FOR ITS OWN FAULT.

I THINK WHEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS UNABLE TO PUSH THROUGH CONGRESS ITS ENTIRE PROGRAM, THIS IDEA OF A SORT OF NEW AMERICAN WELFARE STATE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS NOT ABLE TO GET THROUGH CONGRESS.

HE GOT A LOT OF THINGS THROUGH CONGRESS, BUT NOT EVERYTHING.

THE INSPIRATIONAL ASPECT THAT THE UNITED STATES COULD HAVE HAD, THE INSPIRATIONAL EFFECT THAT IT COULD HAVE HAD IN LATIN AMERICA DIDN'T HAPPEN.

NOW, POLICY WISE THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL PROBLEMS.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CONTINUITY WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION UNFORTUNATELY ON MAJOR ISSUES SUCH AS MIGRATION, SUCH AS DRUGS.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY TOWARDS LATIN AMERICA HAS NOT BEEN THAT DIFFERENT.

AND PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF BRAZIL, THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT BEEN A FORCE FOR STRENGTHENING DEMOCRACY IN LATIN AMERICA AT A TIME WHEN IT IS BEING WEAKENED BY ALL OF THESE EVENTS THAT WE HAVE JUST BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT.

IN THE KACASE OF BRAZIL, YES, T UNITED STATES CONVINCED, PERSUADED THE BRAZILIAN MILITARY NOT TO PURSUE A MILITARY COUP AGAINST PRESIDENT LULA WHO WAS ELECTED LATE LAST YEAR AND WHO TOOK OFFICE ON JANUARY 1st, AND WAS ALMOST DEPOSED IN A COUP WITH GREAT MILITARY PARTICIPATION ON JANUARY 8th.

THE U.S.

PLAYED AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN HAVING THAT COUP NOT BE SUCCESSFUL, BUT IN THE CASE OF MEXICO AND THE CASE OF EL SAL SALVADOR, THE CASE OF OTHER COUNTRIES, THE UNITED STATES IS NOT BEING A FORCEFUL PRESENCE FOR AND STRENGTHENING DEMOCRACY IN LATIN AMERICA.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT DEMOCRACY IN OTHER AREAS OF THE WORLD BUT NOT SO MUCH IN LATIN AMERICA BECAUSE HE HAS TO DEAL WITH MIGRATION AND HAS TO DEAL WITH DRUGS.

BUT HE IS DEALING WITH THEM IN A VERY TRADITIONAL WAY, WHICH HAS PROVED TO BE A FAILURE.

>> JORGE CASTANEDA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND ANALYSIS, WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

>>> NOW TO A MUSICAL GENIUS CHALLENGING GENRES, JON BATISTE HAS BEEN BUSY AFTER WINNING FIVE GRAMMYS AT LAST YEAR'S AWARDS INCLUDING ALBUM OF THE YEAR, HE IS BACK WITH A NEW RECORD CALLED "WORLD MUSIC RADIO."

THE CONCEPT ALBUM WEAVES HIS SIGNATURE STYLE OF JAZZ, FUNK, AND SOUL WITH GLOBAL ARTISTS LIKE LANA DEL REY, LIL WAYNE AND K-POP GIRL GROUP NEW JEANS.

HERE IS A TASTE OF THE SINGLE CALLING YOUR NAME.

♪ ♪ SUN AND THE STARS ♪ NIGHT AND THE DAY ♪ ALL OF THE WHILE I WAS CALLING YOUR NAME ♪ ♪ WE GET SO LOST IN THE FEELINGS ♪ ♪ HATE IN THE CLOUDS ♪ GET SO CAUGHT UP IN BELIEVING SOMETHING ABOUT ♪ ♪ BUT YOU FEEL SO GOOD IN THE SPIRITS ♪ ♪ CAN'T GO BACK NO MORE >> TO BREAK DOWN THIS WONDERFUL ALBUM, JON TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

JOHN BAPTISTE, WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> YES INDEED, HELLO.

>> IT'S ALWAYS A GOOD DAY WHEN WE SEE JON BATISTE.

>> LIKE WISE, I'M SO GLAD TO BE BACK.

>> WELL, BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT THE NEW ALBUM, I MEAN, WHAT A YEAR.

YOU WERE NOMINATED FOR 11 GRAMMYS, YOU WON FIVE, AND THIS IS ON TOP OF HAVING WON AN OSCAR.

HOW DO YOU TAKE IT ALL IN?

>> I JUST -- I LOVE THE ABILITY TO CREATE, AND I PUT SO MUCH PRESSURE ON MYSELF AND THE CREATIVE PROCESS THAT ONCE I'M DONE WITH THE PROJECT, I'M SPENT.

I'M TOTALLY -- I'VE GIVEN IT MY ALL, SO IT'S HARD TO THINK ABOUT MY REACTION UNTIL MANY YEARS LATER BECAUSE I HAVE TO PROCESS THE CREATIVE PART AND THEN ALL THAT COMES AFTER IT, THE AWARDS, THE PERFORMANCES, THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT I HEAR FROM FOLKS WHO HAVE INVITED THE ART INTO THEIR LIVES, AND IT REALLY DOES TAKE ME A FEW YEARS TO PROCESS THINGS.

>> THE NEW ALBUM, WORLD MUSIC RADIO, IT'S CRAZY.

IT'S CRAZY.

I JUST -- IT REALLY DOES FEEL LIKE A JOURNEY, RIGHT?

IT FEELS LIKE A TRIP.

FIRST OF ALL, WORLD MUSIC RADIO.

WHY THAT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT STARTED AS A PROMPT, WORLD MUSIC AND POPULAR MUSIC, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT POP MUSIC, YOU LOOK AT WORLD MUSIC.

IT FEELS THAT IN THE LAST TEN YEARS OR MORE, THEY HAVE BECOME MORE AND MORE SYNONYMOUS WITH EACH OTHER, AND THE CONCEPT OF WORLD MUSIC AS A GENRE IS A HORRENDOUS -- IT'S AN ATROCIOUS GENRE CONCEPTION.

IT'S REALLY SO MARGINALIZING TO CULTURES OUTSIDE OF AMERICA AND EUROPE.

IT PUTS THEM ALL -- ALL OF THE CULTURE OUTSIDE OF AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE BUNCHED TOGETHER AS ONE AND IT'S CALLED WORLD MUSIC LIKE IT'S COMPLETELY OTHERIZED.

SO I THOUGHT, WELL, WOULDN'T IT BE AN INTERESTING PROMPT TO REIMAGINE WHAT THAT COULD MEAN IN THE POPULAR MUSIC CONTEXT AND USE THAT AS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN EXPAND POPULAR MUSIC THROUGH THINKING ABOUT.

SO I THOUGHT, WOW, LOOK AT ALL THE GREAT MUSIC THAT'S COMING OUT OF THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA.

IF YOU GO TO ASIA, YOU SEE ALL THE INCREDIBLE ARTISTS, LATIN AMERICA, SOUTH AMERICA, ALL THE INCREDIBLE ARTISTS IN THE POPULAR CULTURAL SPACE, THAT WILL BE INTERESTING.

IT DIDN'T TURN INTO WORLD MUSIC RADIO UNTIL THE LATER STAGES OF THE CREATIVE PROCESS, LIKE MAYBE NINE MONTHS INTO THE PROCESS BEFORE I WAS DONE, I HAD THE EPIPHANY THAT IT WAS A CONCEPT ALBUM, THAT IT WAS AN ALBUM WHERE YOU LED THROUGH IT BY A CHARACTER THAT I PLAY.

I'M THE ALTER EEGO OF JOHN BAP TICE IS THIS CHARACTER WHO'S A DJ, HE'S LIKE AN ALL KNOWING BEING THAT SOMEHOW DOWN HOME AND VERY CHARMING IN THIS WAY THAT HE GUIDES YOU THROUGH THE ALBUM.

SO ALL OF THIS HAPPENED MAYBE A MONTH BEFORE WE WERE DONE, SO THAT WAS HOW WE GOT TO WORLD MUSIC RADIO.

>> SO TALKING ABOUT THE MUSIC AGAIN, IT HAS SO MANY INTERESTING FLAVORS AND KIND OF NUANCES AND ALSO REALLY FAMOUS COLLABORATORS, SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVEN'T NECESSARILY SEEN WITH YOU BEFORE.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY WHEN YOU WERE A BAND LEADER FOR THE LATE SHOW, YOU HAD A NUMBER OF GREAT ARTISTS COME IN AND SOMETIMES THEY'D SIT IN WITH YOU.

THIS IDEA OF COLLABORATING WITH THESE REALLY GREAT NAMES, LANA DEL REY, HOW DID THAT IDEA COME TO YOU?

>> I THOUGHT ABOUT IT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CASTING A MOVIE AND THE ALBUM IS SO MUCH LIKE A MOVIE, IT'S REALLY LIKE YOU'RE WATCHING A FILM.

YOU'RE LISTENING TO IT AND YOU'RE WATCHING A FILM IN YOUR MIND'S EYE, AND THERE'S ALL THESE MOMENTS THAT HAPPEN AND ALL THIS SYMBOLISM IN THE ALBUM WITH CERTAIN CHARACTERS AND CERTAIN ELEMENTS.

WATER IS A SYMBOL IN THE ALBUM.

BUTTERFLY IS A SYMBOL IN THE ALBUM.

SO I THOUGHT ABOUT ALL THESE MOMENTS THAT IN THE SEQUENCE NEEDED SOMEONE TO STEP FORWARD, ANOTHER CHARACTER, ANOTHER VOICE, AND IT JUST HAPPENED TO BE, WOW, YOU KNOW, THIS IS BEST FOR KENNY G. TO DO AND THIS IS LIL WAYNE, AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS NEW JEANS.

THIS IS -- IT CREATED A TAPESTRY THAT WAS VERY DIVERSE.

>> WE TALKED EARLIER ABOUT HOW MARGINALIZING OR OTHERIZING LIKE THE WHOLE IDEA OF WORLD MUSIC CAN BE.

IT'S LIKE THERE'S -- WE GET TO BE HERE IN THE WEST, LIKE OR IN THE UNITED STATES LET'S SAY OR IN THE UK, WE GET TO BE POP AND JAZZ AND CLASSICAL, BUT EVERYBODY ELSE GETS TO BE WORLD.

>> YEAH, LIKE THAT'S THE REST OF THE WORLD'S MUSIC.

THAT'S THEIR -- BUT YOU, AND YOU ARE INCLUDING SONGS AND LANGUAGES THAT PERHAPS ARE NOT AS FAMILIAR TO PEOPLE, AND I WAS THINKING HERE ABOUT MY HEART WHERE YOU FEATURE A CATALONIAN SINGER.

♪ >> YOU KNOW SOMETHING, I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT YOU.

♪ >> THERE'S ANOTHER THING THAT I THINK IS REALLY INTERESTING WITH MUSIC AND LANGUAGES AND THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN HAVE A SONG OR YOU CAN HAVE A POPULAR MUSIC ALBUM THAT EXISTS IN MORE LANGUAGES THAN JUST ONE, AND YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY TO THINK ABOUT EXPRESSION AND THE USE OF LANGUAGE AS A PART OF YOUR EXPRESSION IN THE POPULAR MUSIC SPHERE.

THE IDEA THAT MY HEART -- YOU KNOW, I CAN SING IN SPANISH OR EVEN IN THE CATALONIAN DIALECT OF SPANISH TO CREATE THIS EMOTION.

IT HAEIGHTENS THE EMOTION.

RITA PEREZ IS AN INCREDIBLE ARTIST, WE WERE ABLE TO -- YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T KNOW HER, I DISCOVERED HER ONLINE.

SHE'S AN UNSIGNED ARTIST WHO PLAYS THE TROMBONE AND SINGS ON THIS SONG, AND SHE'S AN INCREDIBLE ARTIST THAT IT MOVED ME TO THE POINT THAT I WANTED TO STEP INTO THAT SPACE TO REPRESENT THE EMOTION OF THE SONG WE COLLABORATED ON.

AND THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO MANY POSSIBILITIES THERE.

AND ON THE ALBUM, YOU HEAR DIFFERENT LANGUAGES THROUGHOUT, BUT THAT ONE IN PARTICULAR, I'M VERY PROUD OF HOW IT REALLY HEIGHTENED THE STAKES OF WHAT WE WERE DOING.

>> TELL ME A BIT MORE ABOUT MASTER POWER.

M♪ ♪ THERE'S A MASTER POWER ♪ >> IT'S KIND OF GOT A COUNTRY FEEL, BUT IT HAS PRAYER INTONATIONS.

TELL A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

I HEARD SOME KIND OF MUSLIM CALL TO PRAYER TONATIONS DO YOU WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT?

>> THERE'S A LOT OF RADICAL CHOICES ON THIS ALBUM.

I'D NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE, I'D NEVER EXPERIENCED IT, BUT I THOUGHT THERE WAS SUCH A COMMON THREAD BETWEEN THE CALL TO PRAYER AND THE DIFFERENT SONGS THAT YOU MAY HEAR THE CANTOR SING IN THE JEWISH TRADITION OR YOU WOULD HEAR IN THE COUNTRY MUSIC TRADITION WHERE THERE'S GOSPEL SONGS AND SOUTHERN COUNTRY SONGS OR YOU KNOW, JOHNNY CASH, SOUTHERN SHUFFLES AND THAT KIND OF SOUND.

I'D NEVER HEARD THEM PUT TOGETHER, AND ALSO I'D NEVER HEARD SAMPLING DONE IN SUCH A WAY WHERE IT'S NOT SUCH AN OVERT TEXTURE IN THE MUSIC BUT IT BLENDS WITH THE INSTRUMENTATION BUT KIND OF JUXTAPOSES ALL THESE FORMS OF WORSHIP, THE MASTER POWER, THE ULTIMATE, THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE IN THAT KIND OF CREATIVE -- CREATED A MILIEU THAT SPEAKS TO THAT BUT FROM THESE REALLY UNEXPECTED PAIRINGS.

>> ONE OF THE MESSAGES, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, OF THE ALBUM IS KIND OF UNITY TOGETHERNESS AND STOP HATING, YOU KNOW.

BASICALLY JUST LET'S ENJOY AND APPRECIATE EACH OTHER.

IN FACT, LIKE IN MASTER POWER, YOU SAY I LOVE YOU EVEN IF I DON'T KNOW YA, YOU KNOW.

AND THEN IN ANOTHER TRACK, YOU SAY LOVE BLACK FOLKS AND WHITE FOLKS, MY ASIANS, MY AFRICANS, MY AFRO, EURASIAN, REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT.

IT'S ONE OF THE TRACKS THAT'S GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION SO FAR.

♪ ♪ THIS IS WHO I AM >> IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT THAT SCARES YOU OR THAT YOU FEEL WON'T BE WELL-RECEIVED?

>> NO.

I THINK THAT ULTIMATELY THERE'S A -- THERE'S AN INTERESTING THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE TRULY YOURSELF, AND THERE'S AN AUTHENTICITY THAT RESONATES WITH PEOPLE, RIGHT?

IT'S SOMETHING THAT CONNECTS WITH PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW YOUR HEART.

ULTIMATELY, WE'RE DEALING WITH ISSUES WHERE THE THINGS THAT DIVIDE US ARE MOSTLY ROOTED IN A BELIEF THAT THE PERSON ON THE OTHER SIDE OPPORTUNITY CARE IF WE LIVE OR DIE.

AND HOW DO YOU RESOLVE ANYTHING IF YOU ARE FRAMING THE CONVERSATION DEBATE IN THAT WAY.

THE CONTEXT OF HAVING RADICAL LOVE IS NOT ONE OF AGREEING OR OR EVEN ONE OF ACCEPTING THE THINGS THAT ARE ATROCITIES TO YOUR HUMANITY AND THE HUMANITY OF OTHERS.

IT'S NOT A WAY OF MARGINALIZING ANY GROUP EITHER.

I THINK THAT THE IDEA OF WHAT FRAMES THE CONVERSATIONS AND HOW WE HAVE PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATIONS AND HOW WE ULTIMATE LIMLY MOBILG AND HOW WE LIVE IN A SPACE THAT IS A FORM OF ACTIVISM, BUT ALSO A FORM OF HUMANITY.

THAT'S THE QUESTION THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THROUGH MY ART IN AN ABSTRACT WAY AND THROUGH MY LIFE IN A VERY DELIBERATE WAY.

>> YOU KNOW PEOPLE SAY IT'S KIND OF A CLICHE BUT IT ALSO HAPPENS TO BE TRUE THAT MUSIC IS A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE.

DO YOU HAVE SORT OF A VISION FOR WHAT YOU HOPE YOUR MUSIC WILL DO?

>> GOD IS LOVE, YES INDEED.

I HAVE A VISION FOR MY MUSIC AND WHAT I HOPE IT WILL DO, BUT ULTIMATELY, I THINK THE MUSIC THAT ANY ARTIST MAKES BELONGS TO THE PUBLIC ONCE IT'S RELEASED, ONCE IT'S A PART OF THEIR LIVES AND IT'S A PART OF WHAT THEY DO.

I JUST HOPE MY MUSIC ALWAYS LEADS TO LOVE AND ALWAYS LEADS TO PEOPLE HAVING A DEEPER SENSE OF HUMANITY, A DEEPER SENSE OF INSIGHT, A DEEPER SENSE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ALIVE AND THE APPRECIATION FOR WHAT THAT IS, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S IN THE FREQUENCY OF THE MUSIC.

IT REACHES PEOPLE IN A WAY WHERE YOU DON'T NEED WORDS, AND I DON'T NEED TO PRESCRIBE WHAT I WANT THE MUSIC TO BE IN THEIR LIVES.

IT GROWS INTO -- IT WALKS INTO THAT.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE FATE.

>> YOU ARE CLASSICALLY TRAIN.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE WORKED ACROSS CATEGORIES.

YOU KNOW, DUKE ELLINGTON'S HIGHEHI HIGHEST COMPLIMENT WAS TO SAY OF SOMEONE THEY ARE BEYOND CATEGORY, RIGHT?

AND I THINK YOU'VE STRIVEN TO BE BEYOND CATEGORY.

DO YOU HAVE A HOPE THEN, ESPECIALLY COLLABORATING WITH SOME OF THESE POP ARTISTS THAT PERHAPS YOU'LL REACH AN AUDIENCE THAT HAD NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO YOU BEFORE?

>> I JUST THINK THAT WITH THIS ALBUM, IT SHOULD BE IN THE CONVERSATION OF POPULAR MUSIC IN THE SAME WAY, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT ANYBODY WHO'S IN THE TOP TEN OF THE CHARTS.

I SEE THIS ALBUM AS BEING IN THAT CONVERSATION CERTAINLY.

WHETHER IT REACHES THAT POINT OR NOT IS NOT A SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF THE ALBUM, BUT FOR ME, THIS IS AN ALBUM THAT IS GEARED TOWARDS REACHING THE WIDEST RANGE OF PEOPLE WITHOUT COMPROMISING ANY OF MY ARTISTRY AND WHO I AM AND THUS FURTHER EXPANDING WHAT CAN BE PLACED IN THE POPULAR MUSIC CATEGORY.

NOW, FOR ME TO DO THAT AND TO NOT COMPROMISE IS THE ACHIEVEMENT BECAUSE THE ACHIEVEMENT OF DOING THAT AS AN ARTIST TAKES SO MANY YEARS OF KNOWING THYSELF AND KNOWING WHO YOU WANT TO BE AS AN ARTIST TO BE ABLE TO FIND A WAY TO SCULPT SOMETHING THAT IS UNCOMPROMISING, YET ADDRESSES THE TIME THAT YOU'RE IN AND THE CULTURE THAT YOU'RE IN IS SUCH A PAIN STAKING PROCESS WITH SO MUCH THAT YOU HAVE TO REALLY THINK ABOUT TO EXECUTE ON THAT.

SO I'M PROUD OF THAT IN AND OF ITSELF AS AN ACHIEVEMENT, EVEN IF I'M THE ONLY PERSON WHO LISTENS TO IT.

MAYBE THAT'S NOT HEALTHY OR WHAT THE LABEL WANTS ME TO SAY, BUT IT'S THE TRUTH.

BUT ULTIMATELY IT IS IN THE CONVERSATION WITH THE WEEKENDS OR THE TAYLOR SWIFTS OF THE WORLD OR WHOEVER IT IS YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT.

I ALSO THINK THAT NOT ONLY THAT, I'M EXCITED TO TOUR THIS ALBUM BECAUSE BELIEVE IT OR NOT, YOU KNOW, I WAS 7 YEARS AS A STUDENT IN JUILLIARD FROM THE AGE OF 17, THEN A COUPLE YEARS WHERE I WAS BUILDING THE BAND STAY HUMAN, AND THEN WE WERE ON TELEVISION FOR SEVEN YEARS WITH STAY HUMAN, AND JUST LAST YEAR IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER CREATED AN ALBUM WITHOUT THIS SORT OF OCCUPATIONAL DURESS OF DOING MANY OTHER THINGS AT ONCE, AND I'VE NEVER TOURED.

THIS WILL BE THE FIRST TIME I'VE TOURED, AND THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE WHO AROUND THE WORLD I WANT TO GO OUT AND MEET AND SEE AND BE IN PERSON WITH AND SHARE THIS MUSIC WITH FROM THE STAGE AND IN THE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE SUPPORTED ME ALL THESE YEARS.

SO THE BIGGEST MARK OF SUCCESS WILL BE HOW MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD CAN I BRING THIS WORLD MUSIC RADIO SHOW TO?

>> WELL, BEFORE I LET YOU GO, AND YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THIS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, BUT IT HAS BECOME KNOWN THAT YOUR LONG-TIME PARTNER, NOW YOUR WIFE, HAS BEEN BATTLING FOR YEARS WITH A SERIOUS HEALTH CONDITION, AND YOU'VE BEEN BY HER SAID, YOU KNOW, FOR ALL OF IT AS SHE HAS BEEN BY YOUR SIDE THROUGH YOUR JOURNEY, AND I DO FIND MYSELF KIND OF WONDERING IF BEING SO CLOSE TO SOMETHING SO HARD HAS AFFECTED YOUR ART IN THIS WAY AS WELL.

YOUR SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, AT THE CORE, WE REALLY ARE JUST TRYING TO STAY HUMAN, YOU KNOW, AS YOUR BAND TITLE WOULD SAY, AND I JUST WONDERED IF THAT PROXIMITY TO SUCH A DIFFICULT JOURNEY HAS INFLUENCED THIS WORK AND THIS ALBUM IN PARTICULAR?

>> FOR SURE, THERE'S A SONG, THE SONG BUTTERFLY ON THE ALBUM IS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY WITH THAT IN MIND, BUT IN GENERAL, OVERALL, I'VE CHANGED AS A PERSON IN MY APPROACH TO LIFE AND ULTIMATELY MY APPROACH TO CREATING, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T HAVE THE PERSON WHO IS YOUR PERSON SO CLOSE TO THE VEIL AND NOT BE CHANGED FROM THAT EXPERIENCE.

SO THE WAY THAT IT'S CHANGED ME IS SOMETHING I'M STILL PROCESSING BUT I KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT IT'S MADE ME MORE FEARLESS AND I ALREADY THOUGHT I WAS FEARLESS, BUT YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO GIVE THE AUDIENCE THE BEST QUALITY ART THAT I CAN CREATE AND I ALSO WANT TO DO IT WHERE I'M NOT COMPROMISING MYSELF, AND I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT IS OUT OF INTEGRITY BECAUSE WE ONLY HAVE A SHORT WHILE, AND WE REPRESENT NOT JUST OURSELVES BUT ALL OF THE PEOPLE WE LOVE AND WHO LOVE US, YOU KNOW.

WE CAN'T BE MESSING AROUND OUT HERE, AND THAT'S A MESSAGE FOR ANYBODY OUT THERE.

DO YOUR THING, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT IT.

DON'T HOLD IT.

AND DON'T MAKE YOURSELF -- YOUR FREQUENCY DIM FOR ANY REASON, YOU KNOW.

JUST FEARLESS PURR SOUGHT.

>> JOHN BAPTISTE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

IT'S ALWAYS A JOY.

>> YES, INDEED.

>>> A CELEBRATION NEXT OF THE BRITISH ARTIST LUBAINA HIMID WHO WAS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO WIN THE PRESTIGIOUS TURNER PRIZE IN 2017.

HER LATEST EXHIBITION, WHAT DOES LOVE SOUND LIKE IS AT THE FAMED OPERA FESTIVAL IN GLIYNDEBOURNE.

CHRISTIANE SAT DOWN WITH THE ARTIST AT LONDON'S TATE MODERN IN 2021.

>> LUBAINA HIMID WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THIS IS NOT EVEN A RETROSPECTIVE BECAUSE THERE ARE SPECIAL PIECES DONE FOR THIS FANTASTIC EXHIBITION.

YOU WALK IN AND IT IS STUNNING, THE RIOT OF COLOR, THE CACOPHONY OF SOUND.

IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF EXHIBITION THAN I'VE EVER SEEN.

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY AND ACHIEVE?

>> WELL, I SUPPOSE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THE AUDIENCE MEMBER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THAT ROOM.

YES, I MADE THE PAINTINGS, BUT THEIR CONVERSATIONS WITH AUDIENCES, SO I WANT YOU TO GO IN THAT ROOM AND UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE AGENCY.

>> MEANING WHAT SKEXACTLY?

WHAT SHOULD AN AUDIENCE DO TO EMBRACE THE INVITATION YOU'RE OFFERING THEM?

>> RATHER THAN LOOK AT THE WORK AND ADMIRE IT AS YOU SOMETIMES DO IN AN ART EXHIBITION, YOU GO IN THE ROOM AND ASK YOURSELF WHAT THIS REMINDS YOU OF.

WHAT IT MAKES YOU WANT TO DO.

THOSE SORTS OF QUESTIONS.

NOT SO MUCH WHY IS SHE DOING THIS THING, BUT HOW CAN I ENTER INTO THIS SCENARIO?

>> I READ THAT YOU SAID THAT ART IS ALL WELL AND GOOD, BUT IT'S NOT AS IF WHAT YOU'RE PAINTING EXISTS IN A SILENT VACUUM.

THE BOAT, YOU'LL HEAR THE OARS, YOU'LL HEAR THE SEA.

SOUND IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FOR YOU AS THE LIFE FORCE AROUND YOU.

>> IT IS.

I MEAN, IT'S AROUND US ALL THE TIME.

WE'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET, WE'RE HEARING ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT SOUNDS, DIFFERENT VOICES, DIFFERENT MUSIC, AND IT DOESN'T -- IT SEEMS TO ME THERE'S AN EXHIBITION, WHY WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT THAN THAT?

AND A LOT OF THE TIME I WANT THE SOUND THAT'S COMING OUT INTO THE GALLERY TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO LISTEN TO THE CONVERSATIONS YOU'RE HAVING IN YOUR HEAD.

SO THERE'S A SORT OF THREE-WAY THING GOING ON.

EVEN THE SOUND IS TRYING TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO FEEL AND THINK ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR ACTIONS AND YOUR MEMORIES.

>> YOU WERE THE OLDEST AND THE FIRST BLACK FEMALE ARTIST TO WIN THE TURNER PRAIZE IN 2017.

HOW HAS THAT CHANGE D THE WAY YU WORK OR THE WAY YOUR WORK IS RECEIVED.

>> WELL, IN A WAY IT HASN'T CHANGED THE WAY I WORK, BUT I SUPPOSE IT DID MAKE ME MORE DARING.

I GUESS I WON THE PRIZE WHEN I WAS 63 AND I KIND OF KNEW THAT THERE WERE NOT 63 YEARS IN FRONT OF ME, KNOWING THERE WERE 63 YEARS BEHIND ME, SO I ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTOOD THAT I HAVE TO MAKE THE MOST OF THE YEARS AHEAD.

SO TAKE ANY RISKS I COULD AND KEEP GOING REALLY SO THAT MADE A DIFFERENCE.

THERE'S SORT OF NO ROOM FOR PONDERING, RESTING, I JUST WANT TO MAKE THINGS, TRY THINGS, WORK WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> SO I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR WORK.

VERY FASHIONABLE MARRIAGE.

>> OKAY.

SO THAT'S CUTOUTS, AND WHAT YEAR WAS IT DONE?

>> ORIGINALLY, I MEAN, THIS HAPPENS TO ME BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A LONG TAMTIME AGO, SO 1987.

>> OKAY.

SO YOU WERE DARING IN 1987.

IT DNT TAKE YOU THE TURNER PRIZE TO BE DARING BECAUSE THIS IS A REALLY POLITICAL PIECE.

YOU HAVE RONALD REAGAN AND THIS WAS IN THE '80s WHEN THE WHOLE IDEA OF NUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON WAS TERRIFYING THE WORLD.

YOU HAVE MARGARET THATCHER WHO IS PRIME MINISTER AT THE TIME.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD THERE WAS A LOT OF BACKLASH.

IN FACT, YOU LEFT LONDON.

>> I DID.

WELL, WHAT IT WAS SAYING -- I M MEAN, BASICALLY WHAT IT WAS SAYING IS THAT THE ART WORLD IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THIS POLITICAL WORLD.

DON'T KID YOURSELF IN MUSEUMS OR ART GALLERIES THAT YOU'RE SPECIAL AND LIBERAL BECAUSE TO US BLACK ARTISTS YOU'RE BEHAVING IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, IGNORING US, DOING DAMAGE TO US, AND NOT BEING INTERESTED IN THE -- IN ANY OF THE THINGS WE'RE SAYING, AND THAT WAS A PRETTY DIFFICULT THING FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR, AND YEAH, A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE IT.

>> WHAT DID THEY SAY?

>> OH, WELL, I SUPPOSE -- I SUPPOSE PEOPLE AT THE TIME CRITICS, CURATORS THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE BEING SUPPORTIVE, BUT THEY WERE BEING, YOU KNOW, PAT NA PAT PATRONIZING AND GIVING US TINY CRUMBS, AND I GUESS I WAS IN MY EARLY 30s, I EXPECTED MORE, I WANTED MORE, I WAS MORE AMBITIOUS FOR ALL OF US, AND I WANTED TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND I HAD THE NERVE TO BE THAT BOLD, AND I DIDN'T CARE.

BUT, YEAH, I DID THINK, OH, I'LL JUST LEAVE BECAUSE I CAN'T BE BOTHERED WITH THIS ARGUMENT.

I JUST WANT TO KEEP MAKING WORK.

>> SO YOU LEFT AND YOU WENT TO NORTHERN ENGLAND.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> BUT HERE WE ARE, AND YOU'RE BACK IN A BIG WAY.

YOU'RE HAVING THE LAST LAUGH, RIGHT?

>> I HOPE SO.

>> THE MARRIAGE WORK ALSO TOOK A LITTLE BIT FROM THE PAINTER HOGARTH, WHO IS CURRENTLY RIGHT NOW ON EXHIBITION AT THE OTHER TATE, TATE BRITAIN.

>> THERE'S A PAINT IN THE SERIES FASHIONABLE MARRIAGE.

IT'S THE COUNTESS'S MORNING LEVEE AND I REALLY COPIED IT PERSON FOR PERSON AND TRANSLATED IT INTO THE 1980s.

>> WHY?

>> WELL, HOGARTH WAS LAUGHING AT EVERYBODY, VICIOUS TO EVERYBODY, A BIT OF A BITTER MAN I SUPPOSE, BUT REALLY INTERESTED IN EXPOSING POLITICAL HYPOCRISY.

>> YOU'RE NOT -- AT LEAST IT DOESN'T COME ACROSS IN YOUR PAINTINGS -- AS A BITTER WOMAN, A BITTER OR SARCASTIC, DEVASTATING KIND OF ARTIST BECAUSE YOUR PAINTINGS SEEM TO BE FULL OF JOY AND EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE TAKING ON VERY DIFFICULT SUBJECTS, YOU ARE NOT, FOR INSTANCE, IN -- IS IT CALLED THE RODER EXCHANGE?

>> MM-HMM, YEAH.

>> YOU DON'T PAINT THE VICTIMS OF THAT EVENT.

YOU PAINT SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT.

TELL ME ABOUT THE RODER AND HOW YOU DECIDED TO PORTRAY IT.

>> I SUPPOSE I WANTED TO EXAMINE WHAT -- FIRST OF ALL, WHAT TERRIFIES ME AS AN ARTIST, AND THAT WOULD BE LOSING MY SIGHT.

WHAT WOULD TERRIFY AN ART AUDIENCE?

LOSING THEIR SIGHT BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY ADORE LOOKING AT VISUAL THINGS.

SO THAT IS LURKING THERE IN THIS SCENARIO.

THE STORY OF THE RODER, IT WAS A FRENCH SLAVE SHIP THAT TOOK CAPTURED AFRICANS FROM THE WEST COAST OF AFRICA ON THE WAY TO THE CARIBBEAN, AND IN THAT HORRIFIC JOURNEY, MANY, MANY, MANY OF THE CREW AND ALL OF THE CAPTURED AFRICANS LOST THEIR SIGHT.

SORRY.

>> NO, NO WAS IT A VIRUS OR WHAT HAPPENED?

>> YES, AN EYE INFECTION.

IT RAVAGED THROUGH THE ENTIRE I SUPPOSE CARGO IMMEDIATELY, AND THIS SEEMED TO ME TO BE ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC AND TERRIFYING, AND BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IN THESE PAINTINGS IS THAT THE VIBRATIONS, THE TRACES, THE DUST, THE HEAT OF THAT STILL SURROUNDS US.

SO THOSE PEOPLE IN THAT ROOM WITH THE SEA OUTSIDE LOOKING ELEGANT BUT DISCONNECTED ARE KIND OF FEELING THAT TRUE STORY, UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY DON'T FEEL QUITE RIGHT BECAUSE THEY ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF SOME OF THE SURVIVORS OF THAT, YOU KNOW.

WHEN THEY REACH THE CARIBBEAN, OKAY, YOU'VE DONE THAT JOURNEY, YOU'VE GONE BLIND, YOU'VE SURVIVED IT, AND THEN YOU'RE A SLAVE.

IT SALES TO ME HORROR UPON HO HORROR.

THERE'S NO POINT IN PAINTING THAT BECAUSE YOU OR I WOULD COME INTO THAT GALLERY AND BE HORRIFIED AND OVERWHELMED BY THAT.

>> ONE THING YOU JUST SAID IS QUITE SUNNY, THOSE WHO SURVIVED IF THEY HADN'T BEEN THROWN OVERBOARD, THE OTHERS WERE THROWN JOEFOVERBOARD?

>> YES, IT HAPPENED A LOT.

SOMETIMES THE SHIP'S CAPTAIN WOULD FEEL THAT MAYBE THE FRESH WATER SUPPLY WAS LOW SO RATHER THAN ENDANGER HIS CREW, HE WOULD THROW CAPTURED AFRICANS OVERBOARD TO, YOU KNOW, SAVE THE WATER SUPPLY.

THAT WAS WHAT WAS WRITTEN DOWN, BUT I THINK THAT MANY HISTORIANS FEEL THAT IF THERE WAS ANY SIGN OF INSURRECTION, ANY SIGN OF -- >> DISEASE.

>> YES.

THEN LET'S CHUCK THEM OVERBOARD, BUT OF COURSE THAT WAS KIND OF DANGEROUS BECAUSE THEY WERE WORTH A LOT OF MONEY.

SO THE INSURANCE CLAIM FOUND A LOT OF THESE THINGS OUT BECAUSE OF COURSE EVERYTHING IS ACCOUNTED FOR.

>> YOU'RE FRA SAN SI BAA, YOUR FATHER IS FROM SAN SI BAA.

YOU'RE QUOTED AS SAYING I WAS BORN INTO TRAGEDY.

MY BIRTH WAS ALSO TRAGEDY.

THAT'S BECAUSE YOUR FATHER PASSED AWAY VERY EARLY.

>> YES, I WAS 4 MONTHS OLD, AND MY FATHER WHO GOT MALARIA EVERY YEAR IN THAT KIND OF WAY THAT YOU CAN AND YOU DO AND YOU GET IT EVERY YEAR AND YOU'RE OKAY AGAIN.

IN THAT PARTICULAR YEAR WHEN I WAS 4 MONTHS OLD, HE GOT IT PARTICULARLY BADLY AND DIED, AND MY ENGLISH MOTHER, SHE HAD THE CHOICE.

SHE COULD HAVE STAYED THERE WITH ME.

SHE COULD HAVE LEFT ME THERE WITH MY AFRICAN FAMILY, OR SHE COULD BRING ME TO ENGLAND AND SHE DECIDED THAT'S WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK BACK, WAS COMING HERE TO THE UK, DID IT PROVIDE YOU WITH A LAND OF OPPORTUNITY?

AND WOULD IT HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT HAD YOU STAYED IN AFRICA?

WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN THIS ARTIST?

WHEN YOU THINK BACK.

>> I THINK IF I'D STAYED I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE ENDED UP DESIGNING KANGAS I SUSPECT.

I STILL FEEL -- >> KANGAS?

>> THE AFRICAN CLOTHS THAT I USE A LOT IN MY PAINTINGS TO TALK ABOUT CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN WOMEN REALLY.

I THINK I WOULD HAVE ENDED UP BEING A TEXTILE DESIGNER LIKE MY MOTHER BUT IN A -- BUT IN THAT KIND OF CONTEXT.

I SUSPECT LIKE IN EVERY YOUNG PERSON'S LIFE THERE'S ENCOURAGEMENT TO BE A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ME.

>> YOU DO PAINT ON SORT OF A LOT OF DIFFERENT SURFACES.

>> YEAH.

>> IT'S NOT JUST CANVAS, RIGHT?

I NOTICED YOU HAVE THIS LOVELY SERIES OF PAINTINGS, MAN IN A DRAWER.

THERE'S DIFFERENT DRAWERS, THE SHIRT DRAWER AND PENCIL DRAWER, AND IT'S JUST FABULOUS.

IT'S JUST BEAUTIFUL.

WHAT INSPIRES YOU?

ALSO, YOU PAINT ON WHAT LOOKS LIKE OLD FARM CARTS.

WHAT INSPIRES YOU TO JUST CHANGE YOUR CANVASES OR YOUR -- YEAH.

>> WELL, I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE, BUT WITHIN AN EVERYDAY SORT OF SETTING IF YOU LIKE.

SO A CANVAS IS ONE THING.

IT'S KIND OF RECOGNIZABLE AS SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD SEE IN A FGALLERY THAT IS ART, BUT YOU KNOW, IF YOU BUY AN OLD PIECE OF FURNITURE OR JUST A SECONDHAND PIECE OF FURNITURE, DOESN'T HAVE TO BE, YOU KNOW, ANTIQUE OR ANYTHING, AND YOU OPEN A DRAWER, THEN THERE'S SORT OF THE DUST COMES OUT OR YOU SOMEHOW FEEL A TRACE OF SOMEONE THERE BEFORE A LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER OR AN INK STAIN IN THE DRAWER, AND YOU KNOW THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS EXPERIENCED THAT PIECE OF FURNITURE, HAS KIND OF OWNED IT AND LOVED IT PERHAPS AND KEPT ALL SORTS OF PRECIOUS THINGS IN THERE, SOCKS OR WHATEVER.

AND SO, YEAH, I'M TRYING TO DO SORT OF TWO OR THREE THINGS AT ONCE, BRING AN AUDIENCE MEMBER CLOSE.

GET YOU TO REMEMBER WHEN YOU BOUGHT THAT FUNNY OLD RICKETY CHEST OF DRAURS, YOU OPENED IT.

THERE WAS A LETTER INSIDE.

THERE WAS SOMETHING MAGICAL ABOUT IT.

SOMETHING THAT REMIND YOU THAT ALL AROUND US WAS HISTORY AND OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES.

>> YOU'VE ALSO SAID I OBVIOUSLY KNEW THAT THERE WERE BLACK ARTISTS AND BLACK PEOPLE WHO COULD DO GREAT CREATIVE THINGS, BUT WE NEVER SAW IT.

WE NEVER SAW REPRESENTATIONS IN OUR CONTEMPORARY WORLD IN MU S MUSEUMS AND ELSEWHERE.

HOW MUCH OF AN IMPETUS WAS THAT FOR YOU, AND HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW WHEN WE SEE MANY, MANY BLACK ARTISTS BEING RECOGNIZED, BEING EXHIBITED, BEING AWARDED?

>> WELL, I MEAN IT WAS A HUGE IMP IMPETUS.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY -- WELL, I SUPPOSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ALWAYS THOUGHT AND ALWAYS SAID WHEN I WAS MUCH YOUNGER IS THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THE ONLY BLACK ARTIST.

THERE'S NO JOY IN THAT.

ONE WANTS TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS AS PART OF A COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE, AND I WOULD GO TO THE HOUSES OF PEOPLE THAT I KNEW, AND THERE WERE PRINTS ON THE WALL DONE BY AFRICAN ARTISTS AND THEY WEREN'T FAMOUS OR LAUDED, BUT THEY WERE THINGS THAT PEOPLE HAD BOUGHT AND BOUGHT STRAIGHT FROM THE ARTIST.

MY MOTHER HAD THINGS THAT WERE DIFFERENT SORTS OF EMBROIDERED THINGS OR PRINTED THINGS OR PAINTED THINGS.

I KNEW THAT AFRICAN PEOPLE WERE MAKING THINGS, AND BUT IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO COMMUNICATE THAT WITH THE PEOPLE THAT IF YOU LIKE HELD THE KEY TO SHOWING IT WIDELY.

SO WE DID IT IN PLACES THAT WEREN'T GALLERIES, FIRST OF ALL.

WE THOUGHT, OKAY, WE'RE MAKING THIS WORK, AND WE WANT TO SHOW IT IN A NICE SETTING, YOU KNOW, TO OUR FAMILIES.

TO THE PEOPLE WE KNOW THAT WE WORK WITH.

SO -- AND I THINK WHAT'S CHANGED IS THAT MANY, MANY MORE PEOPLE HAD THE COURAGE TO KEEP GOING.

THE ENERGY TO KEEP GOING, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF ENCOURAGEMENT, PERHAPS ON A SMALL SCALE SAY IN BRITAIN FROM REGIONAL GALLERIES, IN THE STATES FROM SMALLER GALLERIES, FROM COLLECTORS, FROM TEACHERS, AND GRADUALLY OVER THESE 40 YEARS THERE HAS BEEN THIS SORT OF UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE NOT THREATENING SOMETHING, THREATENING TO DESTROY SOMETHING BUT JUST SAYING WE ARE ENRICHING.

THAT'S THE POINT, WE'RE ENRICHING THE CULTURE, AND SHOWING THAT WE HAVE A CONTRIBUTION TO MAKE.

>> WHAT ABOUT BEING FEMALE, I'M GOING TO READ YOU -- AND YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN IT, EVERYBODY'S STEEN.

IT'S IN THIS MUSEUM BY THE GUERRILGRIL GORILLA GIRLS AND THE LEGEND IS DO WOMEN HAVE TO BE NAKED TO GET IN THE MET MUSEUM.

THEY'RE SAYING LESS THAN 3% OF THE MODERN ART SECTION ARE WOMEN, BUT 83% OF THE NUDES ARE FEMALE.

NOW, YES, THIS WAS DONE IN 1989 AND NO DOUBT THE STATISTICS AND FACTS HAVE CHANGED.

THE POINT IS THE SAME, THE POINT IS HOW WOMEN ARE REPRESENTED.

>> YES, AND I THINK IT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT ONE BECAUSE THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE VERY FIRST AND MOST -- I SUPPOSE MOST VIGOROUS BATTLE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN LIKE THE GORILLA GIRLS, ALL THOSE AMAZING WOMENS IN THE 1970s AND 1980s WERE FIGHTING THAT FIGHT, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT THE PERCENTAGE IS THAT DIFFERENT NOW.

CLEARLY IT MUST BE DIFFERENT.

MANY MORE WOMEN ARE RUNNING MUSEUMS, IN CHARGE OF -- >> INCLUDING THIS ONE.

>> INDEED.

>> AND IN CHARGE OF ACQUIRING WORK.

THEY LISTEN TO US MORE.

WE HAVE A BIGGER SAY, BUT I BET THE PERCENTAGE IS NOT 50% YET.

UNTIL IT'S 50%, THE BATTLE'S NOT REALLY OWON.

>> LUBAINA HIMID THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> AND CONGRATULATIONS.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

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