>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WITH MORE KIDS IN HOSPITALS BECAUSE OF THE DELTA VARIANT, SHOULD WE BE MANDATING MASKS IN SCHOOLS, TO HELP KEEP THEM SAFE?

THE GOVERNOR SAYS NO.

BUT IN A NEW POLL, THE VAST MAJORITY OF MASSACHUSETTS VOTERS, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS, SAY YES.

THE MAN BEHIND THE POLL, MassINC'S STEVE KOCZELA AND POLITCO MASSACHUSETTS' LISA KASHINSKY JOIN ME.

THEN, LATER, AUTHOR KATE CLIFFORD LARSON WILL JOIN US ON HER NEW BIOGRAPHY OF CIVIL RIGHTS ICON FANNIE LOU HAMER.

IT'S CALLED "WALK WITH ME."

♪ >> Reilly: THE NEW SCHOOL YEAR IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER FOR KIDS ACROSS MASSACHUSETTS.

BUT EVEN THOUGH THE HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS DELTA VARIANT HAS CAUSED A NATIONWIDE SPIKE IN INFECTIONS AND HOSPITALIZATIONS FOR CHILDREN, THERE'S STILL WIDESPREAD UNCERTAINTY AROUND A BASIC PRECAUTION WE KNOW COULD HELP KEEP THEM SAFE WHEN THEY HEAD BACK TO THE CLASSROOM.

AS WE TOLD YOU YESTERDAY, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER IS STILL NOT WILLING TO IMPOSE A STATEWIDE MASK MANDATE IN SCHOOLS, EVEN FOR STUDENTS 11 AND UNDER, WHO STILL AREN'T ELIGIBLE TO GET THE VACCINE.

>> WE DID MAKE A VERY STRONG RECOMMENDATION AND, BASED ON WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM OUR COLLEAGUES IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT, VIRTUALLY EVERY "K" THROUGH SIX STUDENT IN MASSACHUSETTS WILL BE MASKED.

AND, AND WE ALSO BELIEVE THAT VIRTUALLY EVERY UNVACCINATED 12-YEAR-OLD TO 19-YEAR-OLD WILL BE-- WILL BE MASKED AS WELL.

>> Reilly: IT'S THE GOVERNOR'S LATEST APPROACH TO PANDEMIC SAFETY: ISSUE GUIDANCE, BUT LEAVE IT UP TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, AND INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO MAKE THE CALL FOR THEMSELVES.

AND WITH AN ELECTION ON THE HORIZON, ONE BAKER SEEMS TO BE RAISING MONEY FOR THOUGH HE HASN'T YET DECLARED HIS INTENTIONS, YOU'D BE FORGIVEN FOR THINKING HE WAS TRYING TO AVOID A POTENTIALLY CONTENTIOUS DECISION.

BUT IN THIS CASE?

THE RIGHT PUBLIC HEALTH ANSWER MAY JUST BE THE RIGHT POLITICAL ANSWER, TOO.

ACCORDING TO A NEW MassINC POLL, WHICH FOUND AN OVERWHELMING 81% OF VOTERS SUPPORT A SCHOOL MASK MANDATE IN SCHOOLS, AND THAT INCLUDES NEARLY 70% OF REPUBLICANS SO WHAT IS THE DISCONNECT?

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE MAN BEHIND THE POLL, STEVE KOCZELA, THE PRESIDENT OF THE MassINC POLLING GROUP AND LISA KASHINSKY, WHO WRITES POLITICO'S MASSACHUSETTS PLAYBOOK.

THE HAWRCHG BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> ADAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> E- >> Reilly: STEVE LET ME START WITH YOU SINCE YOU WERE THE POLLSTER.

I READ THEM WHILE READING LISA'S NEWSLETTER IN BED ON MY PHONE.

WHAT ABOUT YOU?

>> IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE DO THE POLLING.

YOU CAN SORT OF GENERATE AN EXPECTATION BASED ON WHAT YOU SEE ON TV AND WHAT YOU SEE HAPPENING AT THESE LOCAL MEETINGS WHERE YOU HAVE VERY VOCAL GROUPS SPEAKING AGAINST MASK MANDATES.

UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND ASK EVERYBODY, HOW BROAD OF A POPULATION DOES THAT REALLY REPRESENT?

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT JUST BECAUSE IT'S A NEW ENOUGH AND RECENT ENOUGH ISSUE BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A LOT OF POLLING FROM OTHER STATES TO BUILD OUR EXPECTATIONS IN BUT AFTER WE DID THE POLL, THERE'S BEEN MORE POLLING THAT'S BASICALLY SHOWN THE SAME THING.

NATIONAL, THERE'S A A POLL THAT SHOWED 69%, YOU CAN IMAGINE 69% NATIONALLY YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE A BIT HIGHER HERE.

>> Reilly: HOW MANY PEOPLE FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT MIGHT BE ACCURATE, SOCIAL MEDIA MIGHT DO THE SAME THING.

LISA WERE YOU SURPRISED WHEN YOU LEARNED ABOUT STEVE'S FINDINGS?

>> I WAS A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED.

AND I THINK THE SOCIAL MEDIA THING YOU JUST MENTIONED WAS PART OF IT.

AMONG PEOPLE WHO SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON TWITTER AND SOCIAL MEDIA LIKE THOSE OF US HERE, YOU WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED TO SEE THOSE NIMS AMONG DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS, I THINK THAT WAS MORE THAN I WAS EXPECTING.

>> Reilly: LISA WHO AT THIS POINT IN TIME ARE THE STRONGEST VOICES AGAINST MANDATORY MASKING?

WHETHER IT'S STATES OR POLITICAL PARTIES ARE THERE ANY THAT SPRING TO MIND?

>> I THINK AT THIS POINT IT IS MORE INDIVIDUALS ON STILL KIND OF THERE ARE REPUBLICANS WHO ACTUALLY JANE SWIFT, THE FORMER LIEUTENANT AND AKING GOVERNOR, IT'S A SMALL CONTINGENT.

IT'S THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT POTENTIAL HIPAA ISSUE, YOU HAVE JEFF DIEHL, THE FORMER STATE REP, RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, WE'RE HEADING INTO A THIRD YEAR OF PANDEMIC DISRUPTIONS, AND MASKS MAY MAKE THAT WORSE OR HINDER EDUCATION YET AGAIN.

>> Reilly: STEVE CAN WE SAY BASED ON YOUR FINDINGS THAT ISSUING A STATEWIDE SCHOOL MASK MANDATE IF BAKER WERE TO DO IT WOULD BE A NONISSUE FOR HIM OR I GUESS BASED ON WHAT LISA JUST SAID, WOULD I BE JUMPING A GUN TO SAY THIS IS A NONISSUE FOR BAKER IF HE SEEKS REELECTION?

>> ONE NOTE OF CAUTION, POLITICS MOVE SO FAST, THAT IT'S AN ETERNITY FROM NOW, THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE IS GOING TO EVOLVE IN SO MANY WAYS IT IS HARD TO SAY EXACTLY.

IF THE PRIMARY WERE TOMORROW AND HE WERE TO DO IT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE THING THAT SINKS HIS CAN'T DEAS BY CANDIDACY BY ANY MEANS.

IT COULD ALSO HELP IF THE DELTA VARIANT CONTINUES TO BE AN ISSUE OF GROWING CONCERN THEN, YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT PUSHES IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

HARD TO SAY EXACTLY JUST BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT IS LEFT.

>> Reilly: I FEEL I DO THIS PERIODICALLY FOR ISSUES KICKING AROUND IN GREATER BOSTON, WHERE I HAVE INTENSE INTEREST OF HIM, I HAVE TWO KIDS, ONE WHO IS TOO YOUNG TO BE VACCINATED.

SHE CANNOT WAIT TO GET BACK TO SCHOOL THIS FALL.

AS A PARENT NOT A JOURNALIST I LIKE THE IDEA OF AGGRESSIVE MASKING BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE HER TO GO IMPACT TO REMOTE.

THAT IS MY PERSONAL DISCLOSURE.

NOW THAT'S OUT OF THE WAY LISA DO YOU THINK THAT GIVEN CHARLIE BAKER'S MO WITH REGARD TO GOVERNANCE,ING THE IDEAS THAT STEVE BROUGHT UP ARE LIKELY TO MAKE HIM CHANGE HIS MIND OR DIG IN AND STICK TO HIS GUNS AND SAY, NO NO, I'M FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE ON THIS?

>> HE LIKES TO FOLLOW THE SCIENCE THAT'S VERY MUCH TRUE.

I THINK THIS GIVES HIM A NUDGE.

LOOK, AS MUCH AS THE GOVERNOR IS A DATA DRIVEN MANAGER AND HE'S KNOWN FOR THAT, HE IS MULLING A THIRD TERM NOW AND HE NEEDS TO PROTECT HIS FLANK HE GOES FOR THAT AND HAVE TO APPEAL TO DEMOCRATS AND INDEPENDENTS, YOU HAVE HEALTH CONCERNS YOU HAVE PRELIMINARY CONCERNS.

I DO THINK THIS IS A CHANCE THAT MAYBE THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF A RELIEF TO SEE THESE NUMBERS ESPECIALLY AMONG REPUBLICANS AS HE MAKES HIS DECISIONS GOING FORWARD.

DLRM SEEMS TO BE A GROWING BODY OF OPINIONS BY SCIENTIFIC EXPERTS THAT CRICK WITH THE APPROACH THAT HE IS TAKING AT THIS POINT IN TIME, STEVE KOCZELA, YOU'VE BEEN DOING A LIMITED RUN PODCAST, MASS REBOOT, LOOKING AT HOW THE STATE IS TRYING TO GET THROUGH COVID AND RECOVER FROM COVID EVEN THOUGH IT'S STILL VERY MUCH WITH US.

I KNOW THAT IN YOUR NEW EPISODE WHICH I THINK CAME OUT TODAY YOU HAVE MORE FINDINGS FROM THIS POLL.

WITHOUT MAKING PEOPLE KNOW SO MUCH THAT THEY DON'T GO LISTEN TO THE LATEST EPISODE, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIG OTHER TAKE AWAYS THAT YOU CAME UP WITH?

>> IT'S A BIT IRONIC, WE STARTED THE PODCAST WITH A WAY TO LOOK AT HOW MASSACHUSETTS RECOVERS AND DURING THE EIGHT OR NINE WEEKS DOING IT IT SORT OF BECAME CLEAR THAT WE ARE ENTERING A NEW TIME IN COVID BUT THAT COVID IS NOT OVER.

SO SOME OF THE POLL NUMBERS FOR INSTANCE THAT WE LOOKED AT THIS WEEK FOR THE EPISODE ON GOVERNMENT, HAD TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT WE'RE REALLY NOT OUT OF IT JET SO HOW ELSE COULD WE POTENTIALLY REACT?

ONE OF THE LEAST POPULAR IDEAS WAS GOING BACK TO HYBRID OR REMOTE INTERESTINGLY ADAM YOU MENTIONED KIND OF MANY PARENTS' GREAT FEAR, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE MORE POPULAR, THE MOST WAS SCHOOL MASK MANDATES, ALSO CONTINUING SUPPORT FOR SMALL BUSINESSES.

MAJORITY SUPPORTED EVEN REQUIRING EVERYBODY TO GET VACCINATED.

EVERYBODY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

>> Reilly: OH REALLY?

>> THAT GOT 63% SUPPORT.

61% FOR REQUIRING PROOF OF VACCINATION TO EAT INSIDE A RESTAURANT, SOMETHING WE SAW HAPPENING IN NEW YORK AND SIMILAR TO THE REQUIREMENT THAT A NUMBER OF GOVERNMENT THEATERS ANNOUNCED TODAY.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF INTEREST IN TRYING TO KEEP THIS FROM BECOMING A BIG THING AGAIN, AMONG THE VOTERS THAT WE TALKED TO FOR THE SURVEY.

>> Reilly: ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS INTERVIEW WANT TO GO IMPACT AND LISTEN TO THE VARIOUS EPISODES OF MASS REBOOT IS THERE A QUICK WAY TO GET TO IT?

>> YOU COULD REACH US AT SOUND CLOUD OR MASS UNDERSCORE REBOOT.

>> Reilly: LISA, YOU SAY THIS MAY YOU UNNUDGE BAKER GOING IN A CERTAIN DIRECTION, YOU TALK ABOUT MASK MANDATE FOR EXECUTIVE OFFICE EMPLOYEES, IF YOU ARE READYINGREADY READING THE TEA LEAVES, HOW SIGNIFICANT DO YOU THINK THAT DECISION IS?

>> THAT WAS ACTUALLY A BIG DECISION TO ME BECAUSE IT WAS A REVERSAL OF COURSE OF WHAT HE SAID EARLIER IN THE SPRING AND OBVIOUSLY GIVEN WHERE THE VIRUS IS RIGHT NOW IT'S ONE THAT MAKES SENSE GIVEN THAT TRAJECTORY.

BUT YOU KNOW IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT HE WENT FURTHER TODAY IN HIS MANDATE THAN SOME DEMOCRATIC LEADERS IN BOSTON AND NEW YORK AND CALIFORNIA BY NOT JUST DOING A VACCINE REQUIREMENT BUT GIVING A TESTING REQUIREMENT, YOU MUST SHOW, THROUGH MID OCTOBER OR YOU COULD FACE CONSEQUENCES UP THROUGH TERMINATION.

THAT'S FURTHER THAT ACTING MAYOR JANEY WENT IN BOSTON.

IF THE VIRUS CONTINUES TO GET WORSE WITH THE DELTA VARIANT, AT THE SAME TIME WITHOUT THE IFNLG ESTABLISHING IN EFFECT -- WITHOUT THE STATE OF EMERGENCY,.

>> Reilly: ON THAT NOTE, LISA, STEVE, THANK YOU BOTH, APPRECIATE IT.

>>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: IN THE MID 1960s, FANNIE LOU HAMER WAS ONE OF THE BEST KNOWN CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SHE BECAME A PUBLIC FIGURE IN MIDLIFE, SEEMINGLY OVERNIGHT, THANKS TO HER VOTING RIGHTS WORK IN MISSISSIPPI WITH THE STUDENT NONVIOLENT COORDINATING COMMITTEE, OR S.N.C.C.

ONE OF HER BEST-KNOWN MOMENTS CAME IN 1964.

DURING A PUSH TO SEAT AN ALTERNATIVE MISSISSIPPI DELEGATION AT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION, HAMER TOLD THE D.N.C.s CREDENTIALS COMMITTEE ABOUT THE PRICE SHE AND OTHER ACTIVISTS HAD ALREADY PAID FOR THEIR WORK.

>> TEN OF US WAS TRAVELING BY THE CONTINENTAL TRAILWAYS BUS.

SOMEBODY SCREAMED FROM THE CAR THAT THE FIVE WORKERS WAS IN AND SAID, "GET THAT ONE THERE."

I WAS CARRIED TO THE COUNTY JAIL AND PUT IN THE BOOKING ROOM AND IT WASN'T TOO LONG BEFORE THREE WHITE MEN CAME TO MY CELL.

ONE OF THESE MEN WAS A STATE HIGHWAY PATROLMAN AND HE SAID, "WE ARE GOING TO MAKE YOU WISH YOU WAS DEAD."

I BEGAN TO SCREAM AND ONE WHITE MAN GOT UP AND BEGAN TO BEAT ME IN MY HEAD AND TELL ME TO HUSH.

>> Reilly: JUST A FEW YEARS LATER, THOUGH, HAMER'S FAME AND INFLUENCE WERE ON THE WANE.

BY THE TIME SHE PASSED AWAY IN 1977, SHE'D BEEN LARGELY MARGINALIZED BY MANY OF HER FORMER COME MIGHT ROTS.

-- COMPATRIOTS.

IT IS A COMPLICATED STORY INVOLVING GENDER, CLASS, AND STRATEGIC DEBATES INSIDE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

IT'S TOLD IN VIVID DETAIL IN THE NEW BOOK "WALK WITH ME: A BIOGRAPHY OF FANNIE LOU HAMER," BY THE HISTORIAN KATE CLIFFORD LARSON, WHO JOINS ME NOW.

KATE GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ADAM.

>> Reilly: CAN YOU START OFF BY DESCRIBING, IN AS MUCH DETAIL AS YOU WANT, THE WORLD THAT HAMER INHABITED BEFORE SHE BECAME A PUBLIC FIGURE?

>> SHE WAS A MISSISSIPPI SHARECROPPER WITH HER HUSBAND AND CHILDREN IN RIEVILLE IN SOUTHERN MISSISSIPPI.

EXTREME POVERTY, YOU KNOW A LIFE THAT WAS HEMMED IN BY TREMENDOUS SEGREGATION AND DISCRIMINATION.

SHE HAD NO ACCESS TO VOTING AND, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS JUST LIVING THE LIFE THAT HER PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS AND GREAT GRANDPARENTS HAD LIVED AND ALL HER RELATIVES THAT LIVED THERE.

SHE WAS JUST ONE OF MILLIONS AT THE TIME WHEN SHE CAME ON THE SCENE DURING THE EARLY 1960s.

>> Reilly: IT IS A BIT OF AN OVERSTATEMENT I KNOW BUT WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK WHICH WAS FASCINATING AND MOVING AND VERY SAD FOR ME, IT SEEMS LIKE SHE WENT ALMOST OVERNIGHT FROM BEING AS YOU SAID ONE OF MILLIONS LIVING IN THESE HORRIBLE CONDITIONS, TO SOMEONE WHO WAS A CIVIL RIGHTS ICON AND WHO WAS LEADING A MOVEMENT.

TALK, VIEWERS AND ME, THROUGH WHAT HAPPENED IN HER LIFE TO EFFECT THAT CHANGE SO QUICKLY.

>> THERE WERE A COUPLE OF ACTUAL SEMINAL MOMENTS THAT I THINK JUST CATAPULTED HER INTO THE PUBLIC EYE AND INTO THE MOVEMENT.

ONE WAS NOT ONLY THE POVERTY AND THE DISCRIMINATION AND THE FRUSTRATIONS THAT SHE LIVED WITH EVERY DAY BUT IN 1961, WHEN SHE WAS 44 YEARS OLD, SHE WAS STERILIZED WITHOUT HER CONSENT.

AND IT -- IT TOOK AWAY A PART OF HER AND IT TOOK HER A LONG TIME TO RECOVER PHYSICALLY AND INTELLECTUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY.

I LOOK AT IT AS SHE WAS SORT OF REBORN AFTER THAT AND SHE WAS DETERMINED TO MAKE A CHANGE.

SHE WAS GOING TO BE THE CHANGE SHE WANTED TO SEE IN THE SOUTH IN THE WORLD.

AND THAT REALLY STARTED ON HER PATH OF WANTING TO GET INVOLVED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

>> SHE WAS STERILIZED WITHOUT HER CONSENT, HAD A HYSTERECTOMY FROM A WHITE DOCTOR, AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REFERRED TO AS A MMS APPENDECTOMY -- MISSISSIPPI APRIL ENDICT DETECTIVE MY, AFTER SHE AND HER HUSBAND HAD TRIED AND FAILED TO HAVE A CHILD FOR YEARS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Reilly: IT SEEMED THAT AFTER THAT TRAGEDY OCCURRED SHE BEGAN WORKING TO REGISTER VOTERS, WORKING WITH SNCC TO GET BLACK VOTERS REGISTERED IN MISSISSIPPI WHICH OBVIOUSLY WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR HER CAREER IN THE MOVEMENT BUT THERE WAS ALSO THIS ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC EPISODE WHERE SHE AND SOME OF HER COMPATRIOTS WERE DETAINED AND BRUTALIZED IN WYNONA, MISSISSIPPI.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

DISRNL YOU DESCRIBE IT -- >> Reilly: YOU DESCRIBE IT IN GREAT DETAIL BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM WAS SO AWFUL.

CAN YOU OFFER A DESCRIPTION THAT OFFERS JUSTICE TO THE HORROR THEY WERE SUBJECTED TO?

>> THAT'S RIGHT, THEY WERE INVOLVED IN A CLASS TO LEARN HOW TO TEACH PEOPLE TO REGISTER TO VOTER AND ALSO TO TEACH THEM THE CONSTITUTION AND THINGS LIKE THAT BECAUSE THEY HAD TO PASS LITERACY TESTS.

AND THE POLICE STOPPED THEM ON THE BUS IN WYNONA, MISSISSIPPI NOT TOO FAR FROM WHERE SHE LIVED AND PULLED THEM INTO THE JAIL AND ONE BY ONE SHE AND HER COLLEAGUES WERE BRUTALLY BEATEN.

AND THEY TOOK -- THE WOMEN IN PARTICULAR WERE BEATEN INCREDIBLY HORRIBLY.

AND HAMER HERSELF WAS ACTUALLY RAPED AT THAT TIME, TOO.

SHE SURVIVED CLINGING TO HER FAITH, AND HER BELIEF THAT SHE NEEDED TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

AND IT WAS ANOTHER TURNING POINT IN HER LIFE.

SHE SURVIVED THAT BEATING AND SHE CAME OUT OF IT BASICALLY SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHAT MORE CAN THEY DO TO ME?

I AM JUST GOING TO KEEP DOING THIS UNTIL THEY KILL ME.

BECAUSE WE NEED TO MAKE A CHANGE IN THIS WORLD.

>> Reilly: AS YOU DESCRIBE WHAT SHE WENT THROUGH I WANT TO COME OUT OF THAT AND I WANT TO PULL UP A PICTURE OF HAIMPLE AT WHAT I THINK WAS SORE -- HAMER AT WHAT I THINK WAS SORT OF THE APEX OF HER CAREER, WHERE SHE WAS WELL PHYSICALLY, SURROUNDED BY FRIENDS AND FAMILY, THAT IS HER HUSBAND IN THE BACKGROUND BEHIND HER.

YOU MENTIONED AS YOU DESCRIBE THAT ORDEAL SHE WENT THROUGH IN WYNONA MASSACHUSETTS, YOU MENTIONED THE ROLE FAITH PLAYED.

ANOTHER INTERESTING DETAIL IN GLUR GOOK IS THE DOUBLE EDGED SWORD THAT RELIGION CAN BE WHEN IT COMES TO CHALLENGING OR ENDORSING THE CONTINUATION OF A MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE STATUS QUO.

CAN YOU RUN THROUGH A LITTLE BIT WHAT RELIGION MEANT TO HAMER AND WHEN SHE WAS IN SOME SITUATIONS SHE WAS VERY CRITICAL OF ORGANIZED RELIGION AND THE WAY THE BLACK CLERGY WAS APPROACHING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, YET IT ALSO GAVE HER A GREAT DEAL OF STRENGTH AS SHE DID HER WORK.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT A LITTLE BIT?

>> SURE.

FOR HAMER HER FAITH WAS VERY PERSONAL.

IT WASN'T ROOTED IN A CHURCH STRUCTURE, A BUILDING OR IN ANY ONE MINISTER.

IT WAS A DEEP AND PROFOUND FAITH AND AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE.

AND WHAT SHE PERCEIVED AS GOD'S LOVE FOR HER.

SO IT GAVE HER RESILIENCE AND STRENGTH, IT HELPED HER LOOK AT THE WORLD, AND MAKE SENSE OF IT, EVEN AT TIMES WHEN THERE WAS NO MAKING SENSE OF IT.

AND SHE WAS ABLE TO USE THAT FAITH AND LOOK AT THE PEOPLE THAT HATED HER, AND WANTED TO BEAT HER, AND BEAT HER DOWN, AND SAY, I STILL LOVE YOU, IN A CONCEPT THAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND BUT SHE WOULD SAY THAT.

BUT THAT SHE WAS GOING TO KEEP MOVING ON BECAUSE SHE KNEW THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO WAS TO BE EQUAL AND SHE WAS GOING TO PUSH FOR THAT AND SHE BELIEVED IF THEY WERE PEOPLE OF FAITH, THEY WOULD SEE THAT, TOO.

AND SOME PEOPLE WERE TRANSFORMED BY THAT POWERFUL FAITH THAT SHE HAD.

BECAUSE PEOPLE COULDN'T GET THEIR HEAD AROUND IT.

LIKE HOW CAN YOU BE SO PASSIVE AND NOT FIGHT AND JUST SAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO WORK, GOD IS WITH US, IT'S HARD TO SEE IT.

>> Reilly: YEAH, IT IS.

I MENTIONED HER CRITICISM OF QUIET OUSTOUS BLACK CLERGY.

HER GOING TO BOSTON TO MEET WITH CARDINAL TO GET HIS, AND HE JUST BRUSHED HER OFF.

>> HE BRUSHED HER OFF.

THEY THOUGHT THAT HE WOULD BE SUPPORTIVE OF THEIR EFFORTS TO PUSH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FURTHER, INTO VOTING RIGHTS, HE WALKED UP TO THEM AND JUST DISMISSED THEM.

HE SAID MY PRESIDENT, JOHN F. KENNEDY IS DEAD, I DON'T NEED TO TALK TO YOU.

AND JUST WALKED AWAY.

>> Reilly: HAMER RAN FOR CONGRESS IN 1964, AS PART OF A MISSISSIPPI FREEDOM PARTY, PEOPLE WHOER NOT WHITE SUPREMACIST VOTERS, WE HAVE A CAMPAIGN PICTURE FROM THAT RUN.

WHEN SHE DIDN'T WIN, SHE ENDED UP CHALLENGING THE RESULT BASICALLY SAYING THE ELECTION HAD BEEN UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE BLACK VOTERS HAD BEEN DISENFRANCHISED SYSTEMATICALLY.

AND THAT CHALLENGE FAILED.

AS YOU LOOK BACK AS HER BIOGRAPHER OF THAT CAMPAIGN, DO YOU THINK OF IT AS A SUCCESS OR NOT?

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CONTINUUM OF EVENTS THAT HAPPENED AS A RESULT OF HER RUNNING FOR CONGRESS AND LOSING IT WAS A SUCCESS BECAUSE SHE WAS ABLE TO GO TO THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS AND CHALLENGE THE MISSISSIPPI REPRESENTATIVES THAT WERE ELECTED BY THE WHITE POPULATION.

SHE AND TWO OF HER COLLEAGUES WERE THE FIRST BLACK WOMEN EVER TO SEAT IN CONGRESS.

IT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND PEOPLE BEGAN TO TAKE NOTICE.

AND PRESIDENT JOHNSON PAID ATTENTION.

HE SIGNED THE 1965 VOTING RIGHTS ACT THAT MADE IT ILLEGAL TO DO ALL OF THE THINGS THAT MISSISSIPPI WAS DOING TO DISENFRANCHISE BLACK VOTERS.

AND THEN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OOF BLACK PEOPLE COULD VOTE.

AND IT CHANGED THE FABRIC AND THE NATURE OF POLITICS IN THE SOUTH AS A RESULT OF IT.

>> Reilly: I SHOULD MENTION BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BROUGHT THIS UP YET AND IT'S SUCH AN IMPORTANT DETAIL THAT THE COMMENTS WE HAVE HEARD GIVEN AT THE START OF THIS DISCUSSION THOSE ARE COMMENTS THAT LBJ YEARS BEFORE DECIDED TO PREEMPT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LIKE WHAT SHE WAS PUTTING ON THE TABLE ABOUT THE SOUTH AND THE SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS SO HE HEMMED THIS IMPROMPTU PRESS CONFERENCE SO THEY COULDN'T HEAR HER.

SHE HELPED LEAD THE MARCH FOR FARE IN 1966.

SHE WAS A MEMBER OF THE FIRST INTEGRATED MISSISSIPPI DELEGATION IN '68, SHE HELPED FOUND THE WOMEN'S POLITICAL CAUCUS IN 1967.

BUT WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK ONE OF MY BIG TAKE AWAYS IS NOT THAT SHE CAME ON THE SCENE BUT SHE HAD THIS DRASTIC AND ALMOST AS EQUALLY PRECIPITOUS DECLINE IN HER CAREER.

BUT WHEN THINGS STARTED TO GO POORLY FOR FANNIE LOU HAMER WHAT WAS RESPONSIBLE?

>> PARTLY WAS HER HEALTH.

SHE SUFFERED GREATLY FROM THE INJURIES FROM THE BEATING AND SHE HAD KIDNEY ISSUES AND EYE PROBLEMS.

SO HER HEALTH WAS A CONSTANT PROBLEM.

AND THEN, I THINK THE MOVEMENT CHANGED IN THE 1960s.

THERE WERE PARTS OF IT THAT BECAME MUCH MORE RADICAL AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT HAD BEEN CLOSE TO HER REJECTED HER, THAT SHE WAS TOO OLD AND NOT EDUCATED ENOUGH.

SHE WASN'T SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH, SO THEY REJECTED HER AND THEY MOVED ON TO PURSUE THEIR GOALS IN THE MOVEMENT AND OTHER PEOPLE AGED OUT.

OTHER PEOPLE DECIDED TO GO TO GRADUATE SCHOOL AND PURSUE OTHER THINGS SO HER BASE OF SUPPORT EARLIER IN THE MOVEMENT WAS DISSIPATING AND MOVING AWAY.

SHE STILL WAS VERY POWERFUL IN MISSISSIPPI AND MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE FOR HER NEIGHBORS, AND MISSISSIPPIANS BUT IT DID DIMINISH BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T HAVE DID CLOUT THAT SHE HAD ONCE HAD.

IN THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT SHE BECAME A LITTLE BIT MORE POWERFUL BUT SHE WAS VERY CONSERVATIVE SO SOME OF THE FEMINISTS YOU KNOW HAD A HARD TIME WITH HER.

>> Reilly: HOLD THAT THOUGHT FOR ONE SECOND.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ROLE IN THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT AND HER HIT ROJHETEROGENEOUSNESS IN THE MOVEMENT.

THERE WERE A LOT OF WELL-KNOWN FIGURES IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WHO THOUGHT SHE JUST ESTHETICALLY WASN'T THE RIGHT VOICE, RIGHT?

SHE WAS TOO COURSE, TOO UN-- COARSE, WHO UNEDUCATED.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT CLASSIST ELEMENT TO HER BEING SHUBTED TO THE SIDE?

-- SHUNTED TO THE SIDE?

>> IT WAS HUGE BECAUSE SHE HAD TO BATTLE IT FOR SO LONG.

IT'S SURPRISING THAT SHE COULD STILL RISE TO THE TOP WHICH IS A TESTAMENT TO HER GREAT SKILL AS AN ORATOR AS A LEADER.

BUT IT WORE HER DOWN YOU KNOW BECAUSE PEOPLE JUST LOOKED THE OTHER WAY.

BECAUSE SHE WASN'T AS ATTRACTIVE AS YOUNGER ACTIVISTS.

HER MESSAGE WAS PERFECT BUT THE ELITE LEADERS WANTED HER TO STEP ASIDE AND THEY FELT THEY HAD A BETTER WAY OF SAYING IT AND PUSHING THINGS FORWARD AND SHE JUST YOU KNOW IT WAS VERY HURTFUL FOR HER, VERY HURTFUL.

>> Reilly: YOU TALKED ABOUT HER WORK IN THE WBMEN'S MOVEMENT AND HER CONSERVATISM.

YOU HAVE A QUOTE WHICH I DIDN'T THINK TO GET READY BUT A QUOTE FROM HER TALK GOING HER OPPOSITION NOT ONLY TO ABORTION BUT TO BIRTH CONTROL.

AND THIS SEEMS TO BE DRIVEN FROM THE QUOTE BY AGAIN HER DEEP CHRISTIAN FAITH, RIGHT?

SHE DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS RIGHT TO NOT LET LIFE COME FORTH.

>> RIGHT.

>> Reilly: HOW DID OTHER WOMEN POLITICAL LEADERS GRAPPLE WITH HER SOCIAL CONSERVATISM?

>> ANOTHER A LOT OF THEM WERE VERY RESENTFUL, THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT HER VOICE WAS SO POWERFUL.

THEY WERE STRUGGLING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND TO CHIENG LAWS AND SHE WAS ANTIABORTION.

THE BIRTH CONTROL THING SHE MODERATED ON EVENTUALLY BUT SHE LIVED IN A COMMUNITY WHERE THEY USED CHILDREN AS A WEAPON AGAINST WOMEN, THEY TOOK CHILDREN AWAY OR THE FORCED STERILIZATION OF BLACK WOMEN IN PARTICULAR -- >> Reilly: SHE LOST A DAUGHTER AT A YOUNG AGE RIGHT?

>> RIGHT, THE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE IT WAS AN ISSUE FOR HER AND SHE FELT THAT DESTINY CHILD BORN OCOULD BE LOVED AND TAKEN CARE OF.

SO SHE JUST -- SHE COULDN'T WRAP HER HEAD AROUND THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE WOULD HAVE AN ABORTION.

SHE JUST COULDN'T ACCEPT IT.

>> Reilly: WE'VE GOT JUST UNDER TWO MINUTES LEFT.

I WANT TO CLOSE BY YOU TALKING ABOUT HER RELATIONSHIP WITH HER HUSBAND, WHICH SEEMS TO BE ANOTHER AREA WHERE YOU COULD POINT TO CONSERVATISM, TRADITIONAL WOMEN'S ROLES, TALK ABOUT HER HUSBAND HOW HE HELPED HER AND HOW HE MAYBE HURT HER.

>> PAT HAMER, PEOPLE DESCRIBE HIM AS A GREAT MAN AND A GREAT GUY.

BUT THEY HAD A TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE HE WAS THE MAN OF THE HOUSE AND WHAT HE SAID WAS WHAT THEY DID.

HOWEVER WHEN SHE ENTERED THE MOVEMENT HE DID STEP ASIDE AND LET HER TAKE THE LEAD AND DO WHAT SHE FELT SHE NEEDED TO DO.

AND HE STAYED HOME WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS AND TOOK CARE OF THEM AND RAISED THEM.

BUT HE ALSO, AS SOME OF THE INTERVIEWEES THAT I TALKED TO FOR THE BOOK SAID HE STEPPED OUT ON HER, HE HAD AFFAIRS, HE HAD CHILDREN WITH OTHER WOMEN.

BUT SHE LOVED HIM.

THEY LOVED EACH OTHER, THEY STAYED TOGETHER, COMMITTED TO EACH OTHER SO IT IS A RELATIONSHIP I DON'T COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND BUT IT WORKED FOR THE TWO OF THEM AND SHE STAYED WITH HIM AND THAT WAS HER LIFE AND THAT'S WHAT SHE WANTED.

IS DMPLE THAT'S ANOTHER THING I REALLY APPRECIATED ABOUT YOUR BOOK.

YOU ADDRESSED THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS RELATIONSHIP AND DIDN'T SORT OF FLINCH FROM DESCRIBING THE BAD THINGS HE DID BUT ALSO NOTING THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL INSCRUTABILITY WHEN IT COMES UP TO A PAIRING.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.

KATE CLIFFORD LARSON THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING KNEE.

>> Reilly: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

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