>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": AFTER MONTHS OF ANTICIPATION, THE DIRECTOR OF THE C.D.C.

TWEETED OUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT CONSIDERING A NATIONWIDE VACCINE MANDATE, RIGHT AFTER SAYING THEY WERE.

EITHER WAY, WOULD SUCH A MANDATE BE LEGAL?

WHAT ABOUT STATEWIDE?

HOW ABOUT IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WHERE A GROWING NUMBER OF FIRMS ARE SAYING "NO JAB, NO JOB?"

EMPLOYMENT LITIGATOR BRIAN RICHICHI JOINS ME WITH ANSWERS.

THEN, LATER, ATTORNEY MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, WHO'S REPRESENTED HUNDREDS OF CLERGY SEX ABUSE SURVIVORS, JOINS ME ON THE CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST EX-CARDINAL THEODORE McCARRICK, THE ARCHDIOCESE OF BOSTON SETTLING SIX MORE CASES AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S ROLE IN THOSE SO-CALLED "RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS" IN CANADA.

AND, FINALLY, RAZIA JAN AND HER RAY OF HOPE IN A DARK TIME FOR AFGHANISTAN.

SCHOOLS FOR GIRLS, ARE THEY AT RISK IF THE TALIBAN TAKES OVER?

♪♪ >> Braude: AFTER MANY MONTHS OF PEOPLE CALLING FOR MORE CLARITY FROM THE C.D.C.

ABOUT COVID SAFETY RULES, THE AGENCY'S DIRECTOR MANAGED TO INJECT YET MORE CONFUSION AFTER THIS EXCHANGE WITH FOX NEWS ANCHOR BRET BAIER.

>> ARE YOU FOR MANDATING A VACCINE ON A FEDERAL LEVEL?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS LOOKING INTO.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK WE ARE LOOKING TO SEE APPROVAL OF FROM THE VACCINE.

WE ARE LOOKING INTO THOSE POLICIES.

>> Braude: BUT SHORTLY AFTER, DR. ROCHELLE WALESKY TOOK TO TWITTER TO WRITE: "I WAS REFERRING TO MANDATES BY PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS AND PORTIONS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

THERE WILL BE NO FEDERAL MANDATE."

>> Braude: OF COURSE, MANY ORGANIZATIONS, BOTH PUBLIC AND PRIVATE, HAVE STARTED TO INSTITUTE THEIR OWN VACCINE MANDATES, INCLUDING RECENTLY: GOOGLE, DISNEY, Facebook, THE "WASHINGTON POST," THE STATE OF NEW YORK, AND FEDERAL WORK PLACES.

PLUS, THE AUDITOR AND TREASURERS' OFFICES HERE.

BUT ARE THEY LEGAL?

CAN PRIVATE EMPLOYERS ISSUE SUCH MANDATES?

SCHOOLS?

LOCAL GOVERNMENTS STROKING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?

I'M JOINED NOW BY BRIAN RICHICHI, AN EMPLOYMENT LITIGATOR AT KROKIDAS & BLUESTEIN.

>> Braude: BRIAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, JIM.

>> Braude: COULD WE START IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

THE NUMBER IS GROWING, EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT.

BUT OTHERS ARE SAYING, PRIVATE SECTOR LEADERS ARE SAYING, UNDER THE SO-CALLED EMERGENCY USE AUTHORIZATION, WE CAN'T MANDATE ANYTHING.

WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR FULL LICENSURE, WHICH IS NOT GOING TO COME AT LEAST UNTIL THE FALL.

ARE THEY RIGHT?

>> NO, I DON'T AGREE, AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DOESN'T AGREE.

IT RECENTLY ISSUED AN OPINION FROM THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL SAYING THAT THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE E.U.A., THE EMERGENCY USE AUTHORIZATION, THE RIGHT OF A PATIENT TO DECLINE, THAT IS BETWEEN THEM AND THE PERSON PROVIDING THEM.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT WOULD STOP A PRIVATE EMPLOYER FROM REQUIRING ALL OF ITS EMPLOYEES BE VACCINATED BEFORE COMING INTO THE WORKPLACE.

>> Braude: I WANT TO CLARIFY, NOT THAT IT IS NECESSARY, BUT I WILL, ANYWAY: AN EMPLOYER CAN'T REQUIRE YOU TO GET VACCINATED, BUT THEY CAN REQUIRE THAT YOU BE VACCINATED IF YOU WANT TO WORK AT THEIR OPERATION.

IS THAT NOT ACCURATE?

>> YES.

AND I THINK THAT DISTINCTION IS KEY.

THE CLIP YOU JUST SHOWED FROM THE C.D.C.

WAS GETTING AT THAT.

IT IS NOT THAT YOUR EMPLOYER IS REQUIRING YOU TO GO OUT AND GET THE VACCINE.

THEY'RE SAYING, WELL, COVID POSSESS A DIRECT THREAT TO THE OTHERS IN OUR WORKPLACE, AND SO EVERYONE COMING INTO THE WORKPLACE MUST BE VACCINATED.

>> Braude: BRIAN, LET'S STAY IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR FOR A MINUTE.

MUCH OF THE FOCUS HAS BEEN ON WHAT HAPPENS IF PRIVATE SECTORS DO DO THIS MANDATE.

LET'S FLIP IT FOR A SECOND.

WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY DON'T.

YOU'RE IN LEGAL ANALYSIS AND YOUR OFFICE OF LEGAL JUSTICE IS RIGHT, YOU CAN DO IT, AND YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT, AND SOMEBODY GETS PERSON AT YOUR WORKPLACE BECAUSE AN UNVACCINATED PERSON COMES IN AND GETS THEM SICK.

DOES AN EMPLOYER HAVE POTENTIAL LIABILITY FOR THEIR FAILURE TO ACT?

>> THERE MAY BE POTENTIAL LIABILITY, IT WILL DEPEND ON ALL OF WHAT THEY DO.

THERE ARE OSHA GUIDELINES THAT GOVERN THE WORKPLACE.

BEFORE WE HAD THE VACCINES, EMPLOYERS WERE TAKING ALL SORTS OF STEPS TO KEEP EMPLOYEES SAFE WHEN THEY WERE IN THE WORKPLACE.

BEYOND JUST ACTUAL LIABILITY, I THINK MANY EMPLOYERS ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE PUBLIC RELATIONS LIABILITY OF BEING ASSOCIATED WITH AN OUTBREAK.

I MEAN, EVERYONE WHO HAS HEARD THE WORD PROVINCETOWN IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS IS THINKING ABOUT THAT OUTBREAK.

NOBODY WANTS TO SAY WE WERE THE COMPANY THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE LATEST DELTA OUTBREAK IN BOSTON.

>> Braude: LET'S MOVE TO THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

I'M ASSUMING THERE IS NO DISPUTE IF A SCHOOL SYSTEM WANTS TO MANDATE VACCINATIONS, THEY MANDATE PLENTY OF VACCINATIONS, SO THEY CAN MANDATE THIS ONE?

>> YES.

THIS IS JUST ONE MORE VACCINATION IN THE LINE LONG REQUIRED FOR ATTENDING EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

>> Braude: SO LOCAL, STATE, AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS, I READ A STORY ABOUT SOME SUPREME COURT CASE, THE NAME OF I FORGET, FROM 100 YEARS AGO, LITERALLY WHICH THEORETICALLY ESTABLISHES THE NOTION THAT STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS COULD MANDATE SUCH VACCINATIONS, BUT IT DOESN'T COVER THE FEDS.

LET'S START WITH STATE AND LOCAL.

I ASSUME THEY CAN CLEARLY MANDATE THEIR OWN EMPLOYEES BE VACCINATED?

>> YES.

>> Braude: CAN THEY GO BEYOND THAT AND MANDATE THAT I BE VACCINATED?

>> POTENTIALLY.

AGAIN, WE'RE DIGGING BACK TO 1905, LOOKING FOR PRECEDENT ABOUT THIS, AND IT IS MASSACHUSETTS AGAIN IN THE NEWS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT REALLY, TO ME, HEIGHTENS THAT THIS IS AN UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW IF WE'RE LOOKING 100 AND ALMOST 20 YEARS IN THE PAST TO SEE THE LAST TIME COURTS REALLY HAVE GRAPPLED WITH THIS.

YES, CERTAIN EMPLOYEES -- AND CERTAINLY STATES AND LOCALITIES YES POWERS TO DEAL WITH PUBLIC HEALTH.

>> Braude: AND THE FED QUESTION IS AN OPEN QUESTION, NOT RESOLVED BY ANY LEGAL AUTHORITY, CORRECT?

>> I'M NOT AWARE OF ANYTHING.

>> Braude: CAN WE MOVE TO ANOTHER VENUE, OTHER THAN EMPLOYERS.

INSURANCE COMPANIES, MY UNDERSTANDING IS SOME STATE LAWS ALLOW FOR INSURANCE COMPANIES TO RAISE RATES ON, LET'S PICK ONE GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS, SMOKERS.

CAN INSURANCE COMPANIES IN STATES WHICH ALLOW SUCH, I WOULD SAY -- SOME MIGHT CALL IT DISCRIMINATION -- DIFFERENT RATE STRUCTURES BASED ON BEHAVIORS, CREATE A HIGHER RATE FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE NOT TO BE VACCINATED?

>> I'M NOT AN INSURANCE LAWYER, SO THAT IS A BIT OUTSIDE OF MY BAILIWICK.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT, AND THERE HAS BEEN A FAIR AMOUNT OF DEBATE IF THAT IS PERMISSIBLE, AND WHETHER THAT IS THE SITUATION SIMILAR TO SMOKING OR IF THIS IS AKIN TO A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION OR SOME OTHER ASPECT OF SOME MEDICAL CONDITION.

>> Braude: I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW HAPPY YOU LOOKED WHEN YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T AN INSURANCE EMPLOYER, BY THE WAY.

>> ALL RESPECT TO MY COLLEAGUES WHO DO THAT.

>> Braude: INDEED.

LET'S GO BACK TO, FOR A SECOND, WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE PUBLIC RELATIONS ISSUES OBVIOUSLY OF CLIENTS WHO ARE CONSIDERING THIS.

YOU PROBABLY HAVE A BETTER FIX ON WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE.

DO A LITTLE NOTRE DOMAS.

THE TREND HAS BEEN TO MANDATE VACCINES.

AS DELTA BECOMES MORE OF AN ISSUE, AND AS WE GET CLOSER TO REENTRY TO SCHOOLS, I'M ASSUMING THAT THE NUMBER OF VACCINES -- THE PERCENTAGE OF PRIVATE-SECTOR COMPANIES MANDATING VACCINES IS GOING TO GROW EXPONENTIALLY, AM I RIGHT?

>> THROUGH THE ROOF.

AND DELTA IS REALLY THE KEY.

WHEN I WAS TALKING TO CLIENTS IN APRIL AND MAY, LOOKING FORWARD, THE EMPHASIS WAS MUCH MORE ON VACCINE ENCOURAGEMENT, HOW DO WE ENCOURAGE EMPLOYEES TO GET VACCINATED.

HOW DO WE MAKE THIS EASE EASY, TIME OFF AND THINGS.

AND OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS THERE HAS BEEN A TOTAL SHIFT, AND EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT MANDATES, HOW TO MANDATE IT AND WHEN TO MANDATE IT.

SOME PLACES SAY YOU HAVE TO BE MANDATED.

SOME SAY IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED, THERE IS GOING TO BE A VERY STRICT TESTING REGIMEN.

THERE ARE LOTS OF VARIATIONS AVAILABLE TO EMPLOYERS TO TAILOR TO THEIR BUSINESS MODEL, THEIR NEEDS, AND THE REALITY OF THEIR WORKFORCE.

>> Braude: THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR EXPERTISE, BRIAN.

IT WAS REALLY HELPFUL.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: IT'S BEEN NEARLY TWO DECADES SINCE "THE BOSTON GLOBE" PUBLISHED THE FIRST ARTICLE IN A SERIES ON SEXUAL ABUSE AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

BUT THE FALLOUT IS FAR FROM OVER, AND TOO MANY HAVE STILL NOT BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CRIMES.

LAST WEEK, DEFROCKED EX-CARDINAL THEODORE McCARRICK BECAME THE HIGHEST-RANKING CHURCH OFFICIAL TO BE CRIMINALLY CHARGED FOR SEXUAL ABUSE, CHARGED WITH THREE COUNTS OF INDECENT ASSAULT AND BATTERY ON A 16-YEAR-OLD BOY IN WELLESLEY IN THE 1970s.

IT'S THE ONLY CASE AGAINST McCARRICK THAT'S STILL WITHIN THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS UNDER STATE LAW.

BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE CREDIBLE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST McCARRICK GOING BACK DECADES, CLAIMS THAT WERE SHARED WITH SEVERAL LEADERS, INCLUDING POPE JOHN PAUL II, BUT WERE IGNORED AS McCARRICK ROSE IN CHURCH RANKS.

AND, AS WE KNOW TOO WELL, HE WASN'T THE ONLY ONE.

THE ARCHDIOCESE OF BOSTON SETTLED SIX LAWSUITS LAST WEEK AGAINST FORMER CHURCH LEADERS ACCUSED OF SEXUALLY ASSAULTING BOYS ACROSS MASSACHUSETTS FROM 1966 TO 1990.

AND IN CANADA, THE BODIES OF HUNDREDS OF INDIGENOUS CHILDREN HAVE BEEN FOUND AT SO-CALLED "RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS," NEARLY THREE-QUARTERS OF WHICH WERE RUN BY CATHOLIC CONGREGATIONS.

SO ALMOST TWO DECADES AFTER THE "BOSTON PHOENIX" AND THEN THE "GLOBE" FIRST STARTED TO BRING THESE CRIMES INTO THE LIGHT, WHERE ARE WE?

I'M JOINED BY ATTORNEY MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, WHO'S REPRESENTED HUNDREDS OF VICTIMS OF CHURCH ABUSE.

>> Braude: MITCHELL, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: AS I MENTIONED, YOU'RE REPRESENTING THE SURVIVOR IN THIS McCARRICK THING, AND I KNOW THAT YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT DETAILS, BUT CAN YOU AT LEAST TELL US WHY YOUR CLIENT CHOSE TO COME FORWARD?

IT TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE?

>> WELL, HE WANTED TO TAKE THE WEIGHT OFF HIS SHOULDERS, THE EMOTIONAL WEIGHT MANY VICTIMS HAVE AND THEY CARRY THROUGH THEIR LIVES AFTER BEING SEXUALLY ABUSED AS CHILDREN.

AND HE WANTED TO HELP OTHER INDIVIDUALS, OTHER SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIMS, WHETHER THEY BE CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIMS OR NOT.

HE WANTED TO HELP THEM AND HE WANTED TO EMPOWER THEM.

AND, LASTLY, HE WANTED TO MAKE THE WORLD A SAFER PLACE FOR CHILDREN THROUGH TRANSPARENCY, SOMETHING THE CHURCH WILL NOT DO.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET BACK TO TRANSPARENCY IN A SECOND.

DOES BRINGING CHARGES AGAINST SOMEBODY AT McCARRICK'S LEVEL, THE HIGHEST LEVEL, DOES THAT TRICKLE OUT INTO OTHER POTENTIAL PROSECUTIONS?

OR ARE THE STATE STATUTES OF LIMITATIONS SO INHIBITING THIS IS A ONE AND DONE KIND OF DEAL?

>> WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE STATE.

MASSACHUSETTS, NEW HAMPSHIRE, AND MAINE HAVE A STATUTE THAT ALLOWS FOR PROSECUTION IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, WHEN THE MOLESTER OR CHILD ABUSER LEAVES THE STATE.

SO IT DEPENDS ON THE STATE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF A NEW ERA OF GOING AFTER THE VERY POWERFUL LEADERS WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

THIS IS THE FIRST CARDINAL EVER CHARGED IN THE UNITED STATES WITH SEXUALLY ABUSING A CHILD.

SO THIS COULD BE THE VERY BEGINNING.

>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, WHICH IT SORT OF -- TALK ABOUT GROUNDHOG DAY, THERE IS NEVER A TIME I SEE YOU THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS.

I WAS NOT AWARE, UNTIL I READ SOMETHING WHERE YOU WERE QUOTED THE OTHER DAY, SAYING, WHEN THE CHURCH PUTS OUT THESE LISTS OF ACCUSED CHILD ABUSERS IN THEIR RANKS, THEY DON'T INCLUDE THE NAMES OF THOSE PRIESTS -- CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, PLEASE -- WHOSE CASES HAVE BEEN SETTLED; IS THAT RIGHT?

AND WHAT IS THE RATIONALE FOR NOT REVEALING THE NAMES?

>> WHAT THE CHURCH DOES FROM ARCHDIOCESE TO DIOCESE AND DIOCESE TO DIOCESE, IS TO TRY TO SANITIZE THEIR LIST.

SOME HAVE PASSED AWAY.

WE'LL HAVE A LIST, BUT IT DOESN'T INCLUDE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN CREDIBLY ACCUSED ONLY ONE TIME.

THEY CONTINUE WITH THE EXCEPTION SO THAT THE LIST IS ALMOST MEANINGLESS AND IT REVICTIMIZES THE ABUSED PEOPLE EVERYWHERE.

IT FITS THE ATTITUDE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE'VE SHOWN THAT A CARDINAL, WHO HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A MINOR -- WE'VE GOT A SITUATION SHOWING HOW DEEP AND HOW WIDE AND THE SCOPE -- I SHOULD SAY THE SCOPE OF THIS IS JUST ENORMOUS.

>> Braude: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SCOPE FOR A SECOND.

WE KNOW THAT THE SAINTED, JOHN POPE JOHN PAUL II, WAS AWARE OF THE FACT HE COMMITTED CRIMES, OR AT LEAST VIOLATED CHURCH PROTOCOL, HAVING SEX WITH SEMINARIANS, ETC., AND WHEN HE ELEVATED THE BISHOP IN D.C.

IN 2000 -- I KNOW YOU STAY IN TOUCH WITH A TON OF YOUR CLIENTS.

DOES THIS MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER THERE IS NO LONGER PROTECTION OF THE TOP MEN, OR IS IT DISTURBING THAT IT WAS ALLOWED TO SUCCEED BY MEN AT THE TOP?

>> IT IS BOTH.

IT PROVIDES VALIDATION FOR MANY VICTIMS.

IN THE VATICAN REPORT, IT IS INDICATED THAT THE BISHOP SAW CARDINAL McCARRICK SEXUALLY ABUSING SOMEONE AND THEY DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.

IT PROVIDES VALIDATION, YET IT IS UNSETTLING AND DISTURBING.

>> Braude: MITCHELL, WHEN YOU READ THINGS LIKE WHEN THE BISHOPS IN THE UNITED STATES THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE LIKE JOE BIDEN, WHO IN MY ESTIMATION IS AS TRUE TO CATHOLIC PRINCIPLES WHEN IT COMES TO POOR PEOPLE AND IMMIGRANTS AND A WHOLE LIST OF THINGS, SHOULD BE DENIED COMMUNION BY THE CHURCH WHEN THEY STILL HAVEN'T CLEANED UP THEIR HOUSE, OR ANYWHERE CLOSE, ON THE ISSUES YOU SPENT YOUR LIFE WORKING ON, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

>> THEY'RE REPORTING THE MOST MORAL INSTITUTION IN THE WORLD ACTING IMMORALLY.

CARDINAL McCARRICK USED TO HOB-NOB WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON, WITH PRESIDENT CARTER, WITH PRESIDENT BUSH -- THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE THE MORAL AUTHORITY TO TALK ABOUT MORALITY THE WAY THEY DO WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWING THE WHOLESALE SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN.

AS WE'RE TALKING RIGHT NOW, CHILDREN ARE BEING SEXUALLY ABUSED.

YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE CHILDREN WHO WERE SEXUALLY ABUSED BY PRIESTS COME OUT YET WHO WERE ABUSED IN THE LATE '90s OR THE 2000s.

THEY'RE TOO YOUNG TO COME FORWARD.

>> Braude: DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR A FACT?

I HAVE HEARD FROM PEOPLE, AND I'M SURE YOU DO, TOO, WHO CHOOSE TO DRAW COMFORT FROM THE FACT THAT SO MANY OF THESE CHARGES, LIKE IN THE McCARRICK CASE, LIKE WHAT WE SAW IN CANADA AND OTHER PLACES, ARE FROM DECADES AGO AND THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE WITH THE BELIEF THAT IT ENDED.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT IT DID NOT?

>> BECAUSE THEY'RE STARTING TO COME FORWARD, THE CHILDREN WHO WERE ABUSED IN THE EARLY '90s AND MID-'90s ARE STARTING TO CONTACT ME.

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.

THEY'RE COMING FORWARD, REPORTING HAVING BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED.

IT IS NOT ENDING.

BUT WHAT IS CHANGING IS THE PUBLIC, BECAUSE OF THE TRANSPARENCY, THROUGH THE MEDIA, THROUGH ADVOCATES AND VICTIMS, THE PUBLIC IS NOW AWARE THAT CHILDREN MUST BE WATCHED WHEN THEY'RE IN THE PRESENCE OR THE CUSTODY OF PRIESTS.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ISN'T CHANGING, THEY'VE CIRCLED THE WAGONS, BUT THE CHANGE IS COMING FROM THE OUTSIDE.

>> Braude: BECAUSE OF THE COURAGE OF THE CLIENTS THAT YOU'VE REPRESENTED OVER THE YEARS.

AND BECAUSE OF YOU, MITCHELL.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THE U.S. HAS BEEN RAMPING UP AIRSTRIKES AGAINST THE TALIBAN OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS IN AN EFFORT TO PUSH BACK THE MILITANT GROUP, WHICH HAS BEEN EXPANDING ITS PRESENCE SINCE THE U.S. HAS WITHDRAWN VIRTUALLY ALL OF ITS TROOPS FROM THE COUNTRY.

THEY'VE ALREADY FORCED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OUT OF THEIR HOMES SINCE JANUARY, A CRISIS THAT'S NOW ONLY EXPECTED TO GET WORSE.

AND AS FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS, THE FUTURE LOOKS TROUBLED, TO SAY THE LEAST.

BUT AMIDST THE FEAR, THERE IS A RAY OF HOPE.

SPECIFICALLY, RAZIA'S RAY OF HOPE, A NON-PROFIT THAT EDUCATES HUNDREDS OF GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> NEWS.

>> NEWS.

>> PAPER.

>> PAPER.

>> Braude: ONE OF THEM, THE ZABULI EDUCATION CENTER, CELEBRATED ITS 10th ANNIVERSARY A FEW YEARS BACK, WHICH WAS THE SUBJECT OF A DOCUMENTARY CALLED, "WHAT TOMORROW BRINGS."

AND NOW, RAZIA'S RAY OF HOPE IS IN THE PROCESS OF BUILDING A SECOND K-12 SCHOOL.

I'M JOINED BY THE WOMAN BEHIND IT, RAZIA JAN, AN AFGHAN NATIVE WHO SETTLED IN MASSACHUSETTS AFTER THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN AND THE TALIBAN TAKEOVER NEAR HER HOME; AND BETH MURPHY, THE FILMMAKER BEHIND "WHAT TOMORROW BRINGS," WHO PLANS TO HEAD BACK TO AFGHANISTAN TO DOCUMENT THE BUILDING OF THE NEW SCHOOL THIS FALL.

SHE'S ALSO ON THE BOARD OF RAZIA'S RAY OF HOPE.

SHE'S ALSO GOT TWO FILMS PLAYING TONIGHT AT THE WOODS HOLE FILM FESTIVAL: "OUR FUTURE, OUR FIGHT" AND "SON OF FUKUSHIMA."

BRAWRNLTD>> Braude: BETH, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

AND RAZIA, IT HAS BEEN TOO LONG.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Braude: MY PLEASURE.

RAZIA, FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WORK, EXPLAIN WHAT YOU CREATED FOR GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> I THINK IT IS 15 YEARS AGO THAT I WENT BACK AFTER 9/11.

THE FIRST TIME THAT ANYBODY COULD GO BACK.

AND I WENT AND REALLY LOOKED AROUND.

AND WHEREVER I WENT, I SAW THAT THE GIRLS HAVE BEEN TREATED SO BADLY.

AND I REALLY WANTED TO MAKE A CHANGE IN A WAY THAT WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THINGS WERE SO DIFFERENT, AND GIRLS AND BOYS WERE TREATED THE SAME WAY.

>> Braude: RAZIA, WHEN YOU WENT BACK 15 YEARS AGO WITH THIS DREAM, WHAT LEVEL OF EDUCATION WERE GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN GETTING AT THAT TIME?

>> I THINK ALMOST NOTHING.

IT WAS SO HARD FOR THEM TO REALLY EVEN GET UP TO FOURTH AND FIFTH GRADE EDUCATION.

AND THE AREA I CHOSE, IT'S A VILLAGE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE PART OF NEW KABUL, WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME.

AND THERE ARE ABOUT 13 VILLAGES THERE, BUT SIX OR SEVEN OF THEM ARE QUITE PROMINENT.

AND I HAVE BEEN GETTING ALL THESE GIRLS NOW FOR -- THIS IS OUR 14th YEAR, AND WE HAD 179 GIRLS GRADUATING HIGH SCHOOL.

>> Braude: OH, GOSH.

>> SOME OF THEM ARE NOW IN AMERICAN UNIVERSITY IN KABUL OR THEY ARE IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT IF THEY COULD GO ABROAD AND GET AN EDUCATION.

AND ALSO IN KABUL, THEY ARE BECOMING MID-WIVES.

WE OPENED -- MOST OF THE GIRLS THAT COULDN'T GO ANYWHERE ELSE, THEY ASKED US TO BUILD AN INSTITUTE.

AND SO FAR WE HAVE TRAINED 40 GIRLS AS A MID-WIFE -- >> Braude: AMAZING.

>> WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR THAT REGION.

>> Braude: BETH, I REMEMBER SO MANY THINGS FROM YOUR SPECTACULAR FILM, BUT AS I SAID TO YOU BEFORE, THE TWO SCENES I WILL NEVER FORGET, IF YOU CAN DESCRIBE BRIEFLY, ARE THE FATHERS COMING TO MEET RAZIA FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN SHE IS INTRODUCING HER IDEA, COMPARED TO THE FATHERS DOWN THE LINE ONCE THEIR LITTLE GIRLS HAD BEEN EDUCATED.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE DISPARITY FOR PEOPLE?

>> OF COURSE.

AND IT IS SO CUTE, SEEING THE CLIP YOU WERE PLAYING OF NADIA, WHO WAS IN THE FOURTH GRADE, AND SHE HAS NOW GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

THAT WAS REALLY, REALLY GREAT.

THAT HAD SUCH AN IMPACT ON ME, BEING THERE IN PERSON, AND SEEING THE MEN, THE FATHERS, THE ELDERS IN THE COMMUNITY COMING ONE BY ONE STREAMING INTO THE SCHOOL, IN A ROOM THAT RAZIA HAD SET UP AS A CONFERENCE ROOM.

THESE WERE MEN WHO WERE REALLY SKEPTICAL ABOUT GIRLS' EDUCATION.

RIGHT UP UNTIL THE DAY THAT RAZIA OPENED THE SCHOOL, THEY WERE COMING TO HER AND SAYING, THIS NEEDS TO BE A BOYS' SCHOOL.

AND SHE STOOD HER GROUND AND SAID, NO, THIS IS GOING TO BE A GIRLS' SCHOOL.

AND IT IS.

AND IT WAS K-4th GRADE, AND NOW IT GOES ALL THE WAY TO 12th GRADE AND THERE IS A HUGE WAIT FOR KINDERGARTEN.

AS AN IMPACT CAMPAIGN FOR THE FILM, WE WANTED TO HELP THE GIRLS.

AND SO RAZIA ASKED THEM WHAT THEY WANTED, AND THEY ALL WANTED TO GO TO COLLEGE.

SO THAT WAS THE IMPACT CAMPAIGN, WAS TO BUILD THE COLLEGE RIGHT THERE NEXT TO THE K-12 SCHOOL.

AND AS A GROUNDBREAKING FOR THE COLLEGE, THESE SAME MEAN, WHO WERE SO SKEPTICAL ABOUT GIRLS' EDUCATION AND WANTING IT TO BE A BOYS' SCHOOL AND WERE KIND OF STANDING IN RAZIA'S WAY, ARE NOW SAYING THINGS LIKE WE HOPE DOCTORS AND MINISTERS COME OUT OF THIS COLLEGE.

THERE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY CHANGE.

THAT HAS A HUGE IMPACT NOW AS WE SEE THE U.S. TROOP WITHDRAWAL, AND A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS.

AND THE MEANING OF THE TITLE STAYS WITH US, "WHAT TOMORROW BRINGS," AND IT IS A VERY POIGNANT QUESTION TODAY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO ADD ONE THING TO YOUR DESCRIPTION, IN THAT INITIAL SCENE WHEN THE SKEPTICAL FATHERS AND ELDERS CAME, THEY WOULD NOT EVEN MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH RAZIA.

THEY WERE CONTORTING THEIR BODIES SO THAT HER EYES WOULD NOT MEET HERS.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE.

AS THE WITHDRAWAL IS HAPPENING, JOE BIDEN IS SAYING WE'LL PROVIDE DIPLOMATIC AND HUMANITARIAN AID TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN.

BUT WE ALL KNOW WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE FOR GIRLS AND WOMEN WHEN THE TALIBAN DID RULE THE COUNTRY IN THE LATE '90s.

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE FUTURE ONCE THE TALIBAN GROWS IN POWER?

>> I THINK IT IS AS BAD AS THEY ARE -- AS BAD AS THEY ARE, I REALLY COMPARE THEM LIKE ANIMALS, BUT I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT THEY'VE TAMED OFF.

I THINK THEY WILL NOT DO WHAT THEY DID 20 YEARS AGO TO THE WOMEN.

BECAUSE THE WOMEN WON'T STAND FOR THAT.

AND I THINK THAT IS THE GREATEST DIFFERENCE.

THE WOMEN, THEY HAVE A VOICE.

AND THE REASON THAT THEY ARE NOT RULING RIGHT NOW IS THERE ARE SOME POWERFUL WOMEN WHO ARE STANDING FOR THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN.

I THINK -- I HAVE REALLY GREAT FAITH.

IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT IS GOING ON.

WE CAN'T STOP.

WE HAVE TO GO FORWARD.

AND WE HAVE TO HOPE THAT THESE GIRLS WILL BECOME SOMETHING ONE DAY.

AND THEY WILL HAVE THEIR COUNTRY.

AND I THINK I CAN SEE THAT.

SO I'M REALLY -- I'M NOT WORRIED.

AND I NEED ALL THE HELP FROM EVERYBODY TO REALLY KEEP THIS MISSION GOING BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS A GREAT FUTURE FOR THESE GIRLS.

>> Braude: BETH, AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS CHRONICLED A LOT OF THIS AND PLANS TO CHRONICLE THE NEXT ROUND COME THE FALL, I'VE ONLY GOT 45 SECONDS LEFT, DO YOU SHARE WHAT I'LL CALL RAZIA'S OPTIMISM, HER HOPE?

>> I DO WITH THE SCHOOLS BECAUSE THE EDUCATION CENTER AND THE RAZIA JAN INSTITUTE HAS THE SUPPORT OF THE MEN IN THE COMMUNITY IN SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY WAY.

NOT JUST THE -- THE FATHER -- SO MANY OF THE FATHERS ARE LEADERS IN THE SCHOOL, AND IF YOU TAKE ALL OF THE POLICE OFFICERS IN THE SCHOOL, THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING IN HIGHER EDUCATION, THESE ARE THE FAMILIES THAT ARE SENDING THEIR DAUGHTERS TO THE SCHOOL, SENDING THEIR GRANDDAUGHTERS TO THE SCHOOL, THEIR NIECES TO THE SCHOOL, AND THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO HAPPEN TO THE SCHOOL.

>> Braude: I'LL TELL YOU, NOT ONLY IS A BEAUTIFUL STORY SO FAR, BUT I HOPE THAT YOUR VISIONS, YOUR COLLECTIVE VISIONS OF THE FUTURE ARE BORNE OUT.

RAZIA, BEFORE YOU GO, IF PEOPLE WANT TO HELP, HOW DO THEY DO THAT?

>> I THINK WE HAVE A GREAT ORGANIZATION, AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE BEGINNING, RAZIA'S RAY OF HOPE FOUNDATION.

THEY CAN GO ON LINE AND SEE WHATEVER HELP THEY CAN GIVE, WHICH WOULD BE GREAT FOR THESE GIRLS.

AND REALLY OUR FOCUS, EVERY ONE OF US, IS TO MAKE LIFE BETTER FOR THESE GIRLS.

AND I THINK SO FAR, WITH ALL OF THE DIFFICULTIES, I THINK I CAN SEE THE STARS AND I CAN SEE THESE GIRLS SHINING.

AND I CANNOT GIVE IN.

AND I THINK NOBODY ELSE SHOULD.

>> Braude: RAZIA, YOU HELPED CREATE THOSE STARS, AND I HOPE YOU CREATE HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS MORE IN THE FUTURE.

RAZIA JAN AND BETH MURPHY, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> YOU, TOO.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: TO LEARN MORE, HEAD TO razia'srayofhopegorg.

>> Braude: AND, FINALLY TONIGHT, IT WAS 97 YEARS AGO TODAY THAT LEGENDARY NOVELIST, ESSAYIST, AND PLAYWRIGHT JAMES BALDWIN WAS BORN IN HARLEM, NEW YORK.

HIS FEARLESS WRITING ABOUT THE COMPLEXITIES OF RACE, SEXUALITY, CLASS, AND IDENTITY TRANSCENDS GENERATIONS AND HAS SENTED HIS VOICE AS ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER HEARD.

SO IN HIS HONOR, HERE'S A PIECE OF A 1963 INTERVIEW BALDWIN GAVE AT THE HEIGHT OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WITH ACTIVIST AND PSYCHOLOGIST DR. KENNETH CLARK, FOR PBS NEW YORK'S WNDT.

>> I'M TERRIFIED AT THE MORAL APATHY, THE DEATH OF THE HEART, WHICH IS HAPPENING IN MY COUNTRY.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE DELUDED THEMSELVES FOR SO LONG THAT THEY REALLY DON'T THINK I'M HUMAN.

RACIST IN THEIR CONDUCT, NOT IN WHAT THEY SAY, AND THIS MEANS THAT THEY HAVE BECOME IN THEMSELVES MORAL MONSTERS.

>> Braude: WORDS THAT ECHO LOUDLY TO THIS DAY.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR DEVAL PATRICK JOINS ME.

WE'LL DISCUSS HIS NEW ROLE CO-CHAIRING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S "FUTURE OF TECH COMMISSION" AND THAT $1 TRILLION BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org