- [Kelly] Governor Cooper addresses the Democratic National Convention, Donald Trump and JD Vance campaign in Asheboro, and a federal appeals court is asked to reinstate North Carolina's law controlling distribution of the abortion pill.

This is "State Lines".

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[courageous music] ♪ - Welcome to "State Lines".

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Joining me today, an all-star group of friends and analysts.

Joe Stewart in seat one.

Claudia Rivera Cotto of Enlace Latino NC debuts on "State Lines".

Hello Claudia.

- Hi, thank you for having me.

- Well, it's good for you to be here.

To your right, WUNC radio's Colin Campbell, and in seat four, the man who wonders why he's always in seat four.

It's because he's now mass media.

WPTF radio host, Steve Rao.

Hello Steve.

- Hey, good morning everybody.

- We have no time to waste.

Steve, we'll start with you, ask you about Governor Roy Cooper addressing the DNC on Thursday night, and the Governor's been giving these interviews on national TV in recent weeks supporting the Harris/Walz ticket.

He was considered a 2024 vice-presidential contender.

Here's some of his comments.

- I'm Roy Cooper, the last guy standing between you and the moment we're all waiting for.

She went toe-to-toe with some of the world's most powerful executives, and she refused to give in.

Let me tell you, this was a huge risk, but she knew it was a risk worth taking.

That's Kamala.

America, we've got a lot of big fights ahead of us, and we've got one hell of a fighter ready to take them on.

[audience cheering] I know that.

I know that because I know her.

And tonight, I want the American people to know, even if you don't agree with her on everything, Kamala Harris will fight for you to the very end.

And when she fights, we win.

- Well, when she fights, we win, says Governor Cooper.

First of all, what do you make of Governor Roy Cooper as a hype man?

- Well, it's a big night for North Carolina, and I call him the Gov, our Gov, to be on the national stage.

I think it says a lot about how much North Carolina is such an important state, right?

I mean, I think there's a reason they put him right before the Vice President.

And you know, they win North Carolina, they win the presidency.

But what I will say that's been very interesting is Roy Cooper, Governor Cooper's been saying across the country in news interviews that he's smelling 2008, he feels it.

And when you ask him why, he's like, the energy of the Harris campaign, 12,000 volunteers, 9,500 have already done their first shift.

He talks about her being the first one of Asian descent, a lot of Asian-Americans in the state, I'm one of them.

And then he also talks about just the fact that there could be a down ballot effect as well, right?

You've got energy at the top of the ballot, but with Josh Stein and others running with such extreme conservative candidates on the right for Governor and State Superintendent and Attorney General, those voters could move up the ballot.

And so, you know, he feels that this really could be something.

You know, the final thing I'll say is that Trump only won North Carolina by 1.3 points last time.

So I think Cooper is a smart guy.

We often get he's a Morehead scholar.

I'm putting my money on Roy Cooper's prediction, the crystal ball.

He thinks that North Carolina's winnable.

I think that's one of the reasons why he didn't run for the vice presidency.

I think he's gonna stay here, bring it home for Stein, and hopefully he can talk also about economic success that they've had with manufacturing, broadband, those kinds of things as well.

- All right, Colin, can we roll our sleeves up now and start campaigning?

We've had two conventions, both parties very proud of their conventions.

It's all feel good.

There's no problems in this world right now.

- Yeah, it seems like a beautiful picture of the world for the last couple of weeks, and we can ignore the real news that's happening.

But yeah, Cooper's definitely there with three Red Bulls more than he typically has for a speech.

He was definitely more animated as sort of the lead up to Harris, which I think really does show the focus on North Carolina, that it's in play even more than it was before.

We see the polls tightening here in North Carolina.

Trump's still, I think, ahead slightly in the polling averages.

Josh Stein seems to be pulling ahead of Republican Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson in the governor's race, and we're seeing so much of the candidates here.

So I think this is just sort of a sign that North Carolina's sort of, if not the center of the political universe, certainly close to it.

- Claudia, why do you think they would place Roy Cooper, of all the Democrats you can choose nation-wide, think of Josh Shapiro, well Gretchen Witmer was on Thursday night.

But it's Roy Cooper who leads up to the main event.

Is that about Roy Cooper, or do you think it's about North Carolina?

- I think both, particularly because Roy Cooper has also been for two decades a Governor of a state that has voted for the presidential election person to be a Republican, and they still voted for him, which is a Democrat, and I think that showcases that he himself, he has a different lens, and that people that even would vote for the presidential election.

And Republican could vote for him.

And if they have their appeal, maybe that leads to something, and I think that is why they chose him.

And particularly in North Carolina, we have seen that also it's a purple state, but I would say that particularly because of him is also why it's considered a battleground state.

- Joe, you could argue there probably wasn't another person at that convention, not even a President, who's 14 and 0 in races, and that's Roy Cooper.

But you compare Cooper's moderate record to Governor Walz of Minnesota, very interesting that he's right there.

He was close to the top and with one decision, he would've been giving the speech as the main eventer the night before.

- Absolutely.

You know, the knock on Roy Cooper in his career of politics in North Carolina was that he was too cautious, that he didn't take chances, but his slow and steady has won this race for him.

And now whatever he does next, whether he's in a Harris administration, if she should win the presidency, or if he was to go on to other political office or he wanted to consider running for the United States Senate in two years, which I don't think is likely, or he decides to go to work for a law firm and do what Jim Hunt did and become a rainmaker and take on public policy issues that really matter to him, the thing that's interesting here is that Cooper was a safe choice for the Harris campaign because he's a Democratic Governor from the South, he's a white man, he's not controversial.

And for all of what the convention was about, showing the diversity of the Democratic Party and the sense of history that's being made with Kamala Harris being the nominee, here was Roy Cooper, a very slow and steady southern Democratic governor who's got a good track record, saying, "this is who I'm gonna vote for," and I think it sends an important message to another constituency within the Democratic Party.

- Alright, well campaigning did not stop in North Carolina.

Donald Trump and JD Vance were not in the afterglow of the DNC.

They were in Ashboro, North Carolina this week.

The News and Observer reports Trump's made four stops in North Carolina this campaign cycle, with JD Vance making his debut in North Carolina in Asheboro.

This was Mr. Trump's first outdoor rally since the assassination attempt in Pennsylvania.

- Now, I dunno if y'all saw, but today is the third day of the Democratic National Coronation.

[crowd boos] Excuse me, I said coronation.

I meant convention.

Sorry for the confusion, but, you know, conventions normally are about nominating people who actually win elections, and Kamala Harris hasn't won a single vote for the Democratic Party, and yet they're gonna make her their nominee.

- And she'll be worse than Biden because he wasn't really a believer, but she's a radical left believer.

She ruined San Francisco, she ruined California, and if she gets in, our country doesn't have a chance.

- And just like that, Claudia, the campaign season is on.

Parties now can control the message 100% and they're out there talking.

Where's the Harris-Walz ticket gonna be?

Are they gonna hit with just much vigor?

- Well, I think that what we've seen is that they are actually attacking, like, doing personal attacks.

Particularly in this rally in North Carolina, it was supposed to be about the national security and it turned out to be also personal attacks to Vice President Kamala Harris, but also how the administration of Biden has been all this time targeting national security, specifically thinking about how they withdrew in Afghanistan and other issues, such as NATO and Russia and Ukraine War.

So I think that although they are trying to stay in policy, or that's what, like, they say they would want to, specifically, like, Trump said that their campaign is telling him that he should stay in policy, that's not what we're seeing.

So they are definitely attacking, personal attacks, and also doing a lot of what we've seen conspiracy theories, in terms of, like, the election, and I think that is something that will definitely play out maybe for some conservative's base that is already thinking about this topics and is already with this in mind.

It might be something that might be helpful in that sense, but at the same time, it might alienate other people.

So I would say that what it shows is that Donald Trump's definitely a very polarizing figure in American politics right now.

- Joe, how is it that the Harris ticket can come up, be so loved in American media and by the Democrats, and you look at the poll, it's still one point here or there, she's up maybe two and a half in a nationwide poll, which doesn't mean a lot 'cause it's state by state?

What do you make of this?

They're pushing this thing right back towards the personal attacks, if you will, or the contrast.

Is this a second Biden term or a first Harris term?

- Well, there's two important things.

With the decision that Joe Biden made to withdraw from the race, there was a certain amount of enthusiasm that came back within the Democratic party.

And then when it looked like everything had been worked out and there wouldn't be inner-party fighting for who the nominee was with Kamala Harris now, everything is about enthusiasm, when enthusiasm doesn't win elections, it helps, but it's not all that you have to do to win an election.

And so, really, if you look at the polling, where the Harris campaign has made progress, particularly in the battleground states, is among women and younger voters.

And so that relative constituency was probably gonna vote for a Democratic candidate for President anyway.

They had just lost their enthusiasm for doing that for Joe Biden.

So the question is, from this point forward, very little time left in the campaign season, can the Harris campaign convert this then to actually picking up, relatively speaking, undecided voters in a few battleground states where the decision on who the next President is will be made?

That question's yet to be seen.

- Steve, what about undecided voters?

Are they such a thing anymore with the politics being as polarized as they are?

- Well, it is.

I mean, it's the largest block of voters in North Carolina, and you know, in the seven states this thing's gonna be decided.

- [Kelly] No undecided, not unaffiliated.

- Undecided, well, yeah, there's still a lot of undecided voters out there.

I think there's people, I mean, we heard during the convention, Oprah Winfrey talking to them on the couch.

If you're undecided, Republicans, independents speaking at this convention.

And I think the issues that are gonna really, you know, it was interesting, Republicans are in, you know, Trump coming here in Asheboro talking about foreign policy, like Claudia was saying, Afghanistan, Russia, Gaza, upset about Iran, you know, the negotiation with hostages and how we, you know, basically gave them the money, the $6 billion for oil and then returned it after Hamas attack.

But I think at the end of the day, immigration will be the big one that Trump's gonna use in terms of those undecideds about you're seeing these negative ads.

Don't know if it's gonna work so well.

If Vice President Harris now as the president can say, and she did a good job last night in saying, I will bring back legislation like we did before, bipartisan immigration reform.

She's really said, I'm the president.

I'm gonna do this.

So I think she's coming across stronger on foreign policy.

I think she's exceeded expectations.

And my sports analogy is it's almost like Rocky Balboa going southpaw with just the, you know, last round of the match.

Trump, President Trump doesn't really know how to react to it.

- Colin, thousands of people were at that Asheboro rally.

People do like what the Trump/Vance ticket is saying, much like they loved what Harris/Walz was saying in Chicago.

- I mean, both these parties have a very committed fan base for what it's worth.

And those folks are not gonna change no matter who the nominee is.

These loyal Republicans are gonna stick with Trump.

Loyal Democrats are gonna stick with Harris.

It really is enthusiasm, who's excited enough to come out and actually vote.

And then that really narrow window of people in the middle who are maybe on the fence about it.

And that's who we're really talking about persuading here.

And the question is did either of these events really move the needle?

I'm not 100% sure they did.

- Ah, we got weeks to go before we figure that out, don't we?

Well, North Carolina passed abortion laws a year or so back that would require women to personally visit medical facilities to receive the abortion pill much less take the abortion pill in front of a medical professional.

The law contradicted FDA approval of Mifepristone for home use.

A federal judge blocked those parts of state law.

Now 18 states are suing to have those provisions reinstated, Colin.

Those states say state legislators have the authority to regulate abortion at the state level.

Opponents of tighter abortion pill regulations say politicians have no business interfering in federal rules that create a safer national drug distribution system.

Colin, that's a big court case.

It comes right in the middle of election season.

Doesn't it always seem to happen this way?

- Yeah, exactly.

Now you're seeing this.

It's obviously not just a North Carolina issue.

This is a lot of other states that are grappling with this in terms of the abortion restrictions that have been passed around Republican states.

Our law is not that unusual.

If anything, it's a little bit less restrictive than some of the other Republican led states that have passed abortion restrictions.

And this is a key provision of this because a vast majority of abortions take place through these types of pills.

And the way the North Carolina law was structured, you have to go get it from a doctor.

You have to do it in person.

That makes it a whole lot harder to get, especially from people in our neighboring states where there's a more strict ban on abortion, and folks are coming here to get abortions that they wouldn't necessarily qualify for in their state.

So a lot riding on this and certainly puts abortion back at the forefront if it wasn't not already at the forefront of this year's election debate.

- Joe, I understand abortion is why they're in court, but underneath that is a philosophy: federal rules versus state authority.

And do you see it more of an abortion debate or more of a governmental power, separation of powers, federalism debate?

- Yeah, probably the answer to that question, Kelly, is yes.

And so it is a multifaceted debate, and it's increasingly healthcare because of the expansion of Medicaid in the state.

It is a more significant issue now in terms of what the federal rules are for a lot of types of clinical and therapeutic treatments that are made available through these federal programs.

I think what Colin touched on in terms of the issue as it resonates relative to the public policy issue of abortion is the fact that the largest percentage of abortions performed in this country here now are pharmacologically produced.

It's not like it was before where a woman had to go to a clinic, to a physical facility as much as it is the right to have a conversation with a doctor and make those choices for herself and to perform in effect this treatment on herself in her own residence.

I think the discussion and debate of abortion as a function of policy makes it a little more complicated when it's not that old way, but this new way where it is more just the woman in the conversation with her doctor.

- Yep, Claudia, what do you make of this issue?

And some issues people want or certain sides want federal control, and some sides say it's time for state control.

Abortion gets yanked around.

Is it a state issue?

Is it a federal issue?

What do you make of this court case?

- Well, I think that this court case would probably most likely get into the Supreme Court at the end of it because I believe that, I mean, after Roe versus Wade, one of the things that was established is that now the federal court is not like the necessarily in charge of like the abortion issues, and like the state level should have that authority.

However, what we've seen is that lawsuit against lawsuit, they keep going up the rail because they, in the different courts that they are right now end up going up, up and up, up.

So I just believe that definitely it is a case that we will see.

- In the coming weeks, in the coming months, probably up to the election that continue talking about it and probably go up to the Supreme Court as well.

- Steve, I understand FDA approval.

Americans who count on the FDA largely and have for many, many years.

However, state legislatures say, "We are elected, we make the rules."

And you've been on, in the equation of politics for several years.

Which is it?

Is it about political power?

Is it about medical policy?

- Well, I think this case it's about political power.

I mean, clearly the FDA has indicated that it's not a standard that you can be a doctor and prescribe the medication and not have to require physical exams and all these things that our legislature has done.

So, you know, at the end of the day, I think that with most abortion being done with this abortion bill, it does endanger the life.

It's been proven medically to endanger the lives of women who can't get an abortion.

We have a lot of access issues with healthcare in states where they're coming to get an abortion if this could deprive them of that chance.

And I think it comes down to a woman's right autonomy.

So at the end of the day, I think it's political, and as Collin said, this is gonna be a front and center issue of this campaign.

And I think Vice President Harris is very strong on this issue, reproductive rights.

- It's an ask of the court.

It's not a court ruling yet, well- - Yeah, it's an ask of the court.

- Right.

Republican gubernatorial nominee, Mark Robinson released a policy platform this week.

Mr. Robinson's proposing state tax cuts to help households affected by inflation.

He proposes rural broadband internet rollout, at least in a greater scale than we've seen.

Road and bridge building expansion is on his plate.

He'd support cryptocurrency integration into the economy, but he would oppose Joe a federal reserve currency should it be proposed.

Robinson promises to increase services and spur development in rural areas, you know, in an era of personal attacks to what Claudia has been saying, at least it's three pages of something.

- Right.

- Right, Lieutenant Governor announced a 10 point plan, and this is more or less a conventional thing that campaigns do.

They release platform or positions on certain matters of public policy that they think voters are interested in hearing their position on.

You know, Mark Robinson as a candidate for governor, has probably gotten to be better known in the early part of this campaign for some of the more fiery rhetoric that he's issued in various forums.

His name recognition is slightly higher than Josh Stein statewide, but it's not positive name recognition.

So this seems to be more or less a usual pivot that the campaign or any campaign would take to try to get to discussion and debate to be more about substantive issues and less about individual expressions of opinion.

And I think the Robinson campaign is hoping now that people will take a look at his candidacy again and think of it more in a conventional term and less about some of that previous conversation that he's had on very controversial issues.

- Claudia, what a wild idea.

A political campaign for governor actually rolls out a 10 point action plan.

Did at least consider to write about and to analyze your take on at least an issue paper coming out of the Republican camp?

- Well, I think it wasn't very substantial like the specific points, but I do think that, particularly in policy, one of the things that I must highlight is just, he specifically talk about on farms.

Like just we were talking about it just now basically before starting, and just the impact that it might have for farm workers.

Because specifically if you deregulize, what he's aiming for is deregulizing different agencies and the farm workers specifically, it can impact farm workers' health.

And depending on what deregulization he's talking about, because he also is not specific about it, but it can be impact on the workers' health and particularly labor protections can also be in place, thinking into consideration that right now farm workers are also one of the most difficult work in the US, and the US labor has already established that is one of the works that is more harmful that doing.

So just taking off regulations from that can potentially be of concern, particularly for the Latino community that I cover, which is more than half percent of the farm workers.

- There you go.

Collin, that's a nice angle on this story of deregulation.

Lieutenant Governor Robinson has rolled out 10 points.

They all seem pretty... Everybody likes roads.

Well some people, most people like roads and bridge.

I'm gonna say they're the most popular, bike paths seem to be popular in the triangle.

But what do you make of this?

It's something for us to talk about.

And he's got 10 points for you to digest.

- Yeah, and a lot of that stuff that you know has already come up.

The cryptocurrency thing is something the legislature's been dealing with, same with ideologically-driven investing practices, which is something that's in this plan.

The most concrete thing that I saw in this that actually affects people's day-to-day lives is his plan to cut the 2% tax on groceries.

That's sort of a big inflation issue.

Josh Stein has a tax cut plan too that involves the earned income tax credit, both trying to go around this inflation issue and how do you save people money.

- Alright, let's talk about Mark Robinson releasing his public safety agenda, Steve.

That was also something that came up a little bit earlier.

- Yeah.

- Where he's wanting to have local law enforcement work with ice.

He's pushing back on left-leaning efforts to defund law enforcement agencies.

He wants to roll back some of these rollbacks of the cash bail that was popular three or four years ago and he wants to reactivate the death penalty.

It's not, it's dormant in North Carolina, but not bad, should suspects murder law enforcement officers.

So that's a broad, fully conservative embrace of public policy on public safety.

Your take on this, now that's got some meat on it.

- Yeah, it does have some meat on it, but I must say when you even look at the economy as well- - I mean, he waited all this time to come up with these specific proposals.

So I really think it's a bad campaign strategy.

I mean, I just say this as an analyst.

I mean, he said that, you know, he would like an AR-15 if the government goes too far.

He said, every now and then, it's good to have a killing.

I mean, you say these things, and as someone in politics as well, I understand, when the mic is on and you say something, it could be used against you.

So, I think this is a result of this.

I think, you know, it's good to have some meat on public safety, but I think you have to look at the record.

And in this case, when you look at AG Stein, you look at the chief law enforcement officer, he's been doing stuff on sex crimes, rape kits, serving on the racial task force, looking at training police officers.

I mean, that's my take on it.

- Joe, give me your thoughts on the public policy plan for public safety.

- Yeah, I think the challenge always is the perception that the voters have about crime and the actual crime rates sometimes don't necessarily align, but people's perception is what matters to them as voters.

And so, there is a general perception among some segment of the voting population that crime is a real problem.

And perhaps if you've been a victim of crime, you feel that more poignantly regardless of what the statistics are.

But a lot of these proposals make sense for any Republican candidate, sort of a law enforcement orientation, usual thing.

Although the lieutenant governor is up against an attorney general who was the state's lead law enforcement officer.

And so it may not be as effective as, perhaps, if the Democratic nominee wasn't somebody from a law enforcement orientation.

- Claudia.

- Yeah.

So I think that definitely shows that his plan is like being tough on crime, but particularly, as we were mentioning with the HB 10, I think that's something that really concerns the Latino community, which I cover.

- [Kelly] The ICE bill.

- The ICE bill, yeah.

- [Kelly] Immigration, okay.

- The HB 10 bill.

And basically that bill, there's been also concerns about the constitutional right of it, and if it does pass or like something similar to it passes, there is concerns that the ICE are usually not mandatory, and in this case, it will be.

So that constitutional concern is something that we might see coming up in the future as well.

- All right.

Colin, I want to be fair to the Stein campaign because the Robinson's campaign policy rollout had you, my friend.

Looking back on some of Josh Stein's proposals, let's talk about those.

He wants to revive an earning income tax credit.

Republicans ended that credit 10 years ago because they lower tax rates across the board.

He also wants that tax-free school shopping weekend revived as well.

That came out this week.

In fairness to Josh Stein, he's got some points.

What are they?

- Yeah, so I think that's sort of the key thing.

He also wants to raise the minimum wage, although he hasn't said exactly what he wants the wage to look like.

One of the big takeaways from both Robinson and Stein is that neither of them, so far, have proposed any changes to the actual personal income tax rate, which is scheduled to drop gradually every year for years to come under the current state budget.

So unless anyone changes that, it's not going to happen faster and it's not going to not happen.

So I think we're, you know, the specifics are sort of eating around the margins of this.

How do we save people money, cut taxes just a little bit to address the inflation issue?

- [Kelly] Steve.

- Yeah, I mean, I think Stein's plan, I think it's focused in terms of, it does talk about the actual money that could save during tough times, $500 for a family, or $1,400 for a family of three.

I think putting money back into people's pockets with these tax credits is a good idea.

And even post pandemic, you know, we're still living in inflationary times.

I think, economically, we have to look at what are we doing to help the working class of North Carolina.

With that being said, from my local government perspective, I think you need revenue.

You need revenue, so just lowering corporate taxes, I don't think is the answer, but.

- Joe, last word.

30 seconds, my friend.

- It's interesting for all the issues that we talked about today, national polling still shows people are principally concerned about the economy.

But a more significant issue is people are a little distrustful and unhappy about the leadership they feel they've gotten of this country.

And I think that cuts both ways for both parties.

I think for both of these presidential campaigns and both these gubernatorial campaigns, they're going to have to show how their better nature is going to be part of their governance going forward.

- Claudia, I hope you had a good time on the show.

- Yes.

- We are out of time.

- That's good, thank you for having.

- Joe, Colin, Steve.

Always thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Thank you folks for watching.

You're our most important guest on this show.

Email your thoughts and opinions to me, statelines@pbsnc.org.

We'll read every email.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Thank you so much for watching, we'll see you next time.

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