>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

DESPITE WORSENING CONDITIONS IN AFGHANISTAN, A WORSENING PANDEMIC ACROSS THE NATION, AND WORSENING POLL NUMBERS OVER HIS HANDLING OF IT ALL, PRESIDENT BIDEN REMAINS RESOLUTE.

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT HIS LEADERSHIP AND HOW HE MAY HANDLE MORE ADVERSITY AHEAD?

PLUS, A LOOK BACK AT JIM'S CONVERSATION WITH THE NATION'S TOP ANTI-RACISM SCHOLAR, DR. IBRAM X. KENDI, ON HOW HE'S ABLE TO IMAGINE A FUTURE NATION WITHOUT RACISM AND INEQUITY.

♪♪ >> Reilly: THE CLOCK IS TICKING DOWN TO THE AUGUST 31st DEADLINE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SET FOR U.S.

TROOPS TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN.

AND ALTHOUGH AMERICAN ALLIES, ALONG WITH SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THE CONGRESS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, HAVE BEEN PRESSING HIM TO EXTEND THAT TIMELINE, PENTAGON OFFICIALS REITERATED TODAY TROOPS WILL BE OUT BY THE END OF THE MONTH.

>> THERE'S BEEN NO CHANGE TO THE TIMELINE OF THE MISSION.

>> Reilly: BUT WHILE BIDEN AND HIS TEAM KEEP MAKING THE CASE THAT THIS IS THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION, CRITICS ARGUE IT'S JUST THE LATEST EXAMPLE OF THE PRESIDENT'S REFUSAL TO CHANGE COURSE IN A WAY THEY SAY COULD SAVE MANY MORE LIVES.

IT WAS JUST A FEW SHORT WEEKS AFTER THE U.S.

STARTED PULLING TROOPS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN THAT THE TALIBAN MANAGED TO RETAKE THE COUNTRY, SOMETHING THE WHITE HOUSE SAID THEY'D EXPECTED WOULD TAKE MONTHS.

BUT OTHERS ARGUED THE WARNING SIGNS WERE THERE, AND THINGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE DIFFERENTLY.

AND NOT ALL THOSE ARGUMENTS ARE COMING FROM THE RIGHT.

DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN CHRISSY HOULAHAN, AN AIR FORCE VETERAN FROM PENNSYLVANIA, RELEASED A STATEMENT SAYING: "WE SOUNDED THE ALARM, AND OUR DIRE WARNINGS FELL ON DEAF EARS."

AND CONGRESSMAN SETH MOULTON OF MASSACHUSETTS DECLARED, AFTER KABUL FELL: "TO SAY THAT TODAY IS ANYTHING SHORT OF A DISASTER WOULD BE DISHONEST.

WORSE, IT WAS AVOIDABLE."

IN THE DAYS SINCE, BIDEN'S POLL RATINGS HAVE FALLEN TO A RECORD LOW 41% APPROVAL, ACCORDING TO A "U.S.A. TODAY"/SUFFOLK UNIVERSITY POLL OUT THIS MORNING, WITH ONLY 25% OF RESPONDENTS APPROVING OF HOW HE'S HANDLED THE AFGHANISTAN WITHDRAWAL.

STILL, THE PRESIDENT REMAINS STEADFAST AND UNAPOLOGETIC, RAISING THE QUESTION: IS HIS LEADERSHIP STYLE THE RIGHT ONE FOR THE MOMENT?

JOINING ME ARE GAUTAM MUKUNDA, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL FELLOW, HOST OF NASDAQ'S "WORLD RE-IMAGINED" PODCAST AND AUTHOR OF "INDISPENSABLE: WHEN LEADERS REALLY MATTER."

AND TINA OPIE, VISITING SCHOLAR AT HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL AND FOUNDER OF OPIE CONSULTING GROUP.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: TINA, LET ME START WITH YOU.

IF WE TAKE THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN AS A CASE STUDY IN CRISIS MANAGEMENT AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, WHAT HAS PRESIDENT BIDEN GOT RIGHT, AND WHAT HAS HE GOTTEN WRONG?

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION.

IT IS GREAT TO BE HERE.

SO I WOULD SAY THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS DOING WHAT I THINK HE BELIEVES IS RIGHT.

THE DECISION THAT HE HAS MADE IS SOMETHING THAT MAY ALIGN WITH HIS PERSONAL VALUES, OR AT LEAST IT DID IN THE PAST.

ONE OF THE THINGS -- I'M ACTUALLY SOMEONE -- I'M A REGISTERED INDEPENDENT, SO I DON'T MEAN THIS AS A POLITICAL COMMENTARY.

I THINK THAT HE HAS MADE QUITE A FEW GAFFES AND THAT THESE GAFFES COULD HAVE A HUGE DETRIMENTAL AFFECT ON AFGHAN CITIZENS, AS WELL AS PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD AND U.S. CITIZENS.

AND SPECIFICALLY WHY IS BECAUSE I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BIDEN MAY HAVE GOTTEN WRONG IS AT LEAST FROM THE MEDIA PERSPECTIVE, IT DOESN'T LOOK AS THOUGH HE DID A GOOD JOB OF GATHERING ALTERNATIVE PERSPECTIVE AND APPROACHES FROM DIVERSE STAKEHOLDERS.

SO HE MAY BE FALLING INTO A TRAP OF WHAT IS CONSIDERED POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT RIGHT NOW.

I THINK SOMETIMES LEADERS HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT MAY BE UNAPPEALING CHIEF CONTINGENTS, BUT IF THAT IS TRULY WHAT YOU THINK IS IN THE BEST LONG-TERM INTERESTS, AND BASED ON THE DATA AND THE RESEARCH YOU GATHERED FROM MULTIPLE STAKEHOLDERS, THEY'RE IN AGREEMENT WITH THAT, THAT'S OKAY.

HOWEVER, HAVING SAID THAT, I DO THINK BIDEN IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION, WHERE HE IS SORT OF DAMNED IF HE DOES AND DAMNED IF HE DOESN'T.

FOR ME THE CRITICAL PIECE WAS HIM ANNOUNCING THE WITHDRAWAL BEFORE TAKING CARE OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE ALREADY THERE.

THAT, TO ME, WAS A FATAL LEADERSHIP MISTAKE.

>> Reilly: GAUTAM MUKUNDA, WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU, ON THE NEGATIVE SIDE AND THE PLUS SIDE, IF THERE IS.

>> NO, THERE IS.

IT HAS BEEN ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND PRO-WITHDRAWAL VOICES ON THE MAINSTREAM PRESS.

MANY THINK IT WAS LONG OVERDUE TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN.

IF BIDEN HAD ANNOUNCED -- HAD STARTED PULLING PEOPLE OUT BEFORE WE ?OWND ANNOUNCED WITHDRAWAL, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN UNMISTAKABLE SIGNAL TO EVERYONE IN AFGHANISTAN THAT THE WITHDRAWAL WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO THE COLLAPSE WE SAW WOULD HAVE HAPPENED SIX MONTHS EARLIER.

WHAT HE DID WAS STRIKING.

BIDEN WANTED TO WITHDRAW WHEN HE WAS VICE PRESIDENT.

TRUMP ANNOUNCED MANY TIMES HE WAS GOING TO PULL OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

EVERYBODY PREFERRED KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD AND SAYING, WE'LL LET THE NEXT GUY DEAL WITH IT PRECISELY FOR FEAR OF THE OPTICS WE SAW ON THE FIRST DAY OF WITHDRAWAL.

IF THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT FALLS LESS THAN TWO WEEKS AFTER WE PULLED OUT OUR TROOPS, THIS IS A PRETTY CLEAR SIGNAL WE WERE NOT WINNING THE WAR.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, EVEN WHILE WE HAD MILITARY THERE, THE TALIBAN WERE GAINING CONTROL OF TERRITORY.

WE WERE LOSING THE WAR EVEN WHEN WE HAD TROOPS THERE, RIGHT?

SO ESSENTIALLY WHAT BIDEN SAID IS I'M WILLING TO BITE THE BILLION AND TAKE THE -- THEBULLET AND TAKE THE HIT.

EVERYONE OF HIS PREDECESSORS WERE UNWILLING TO TAKE THE HIT THAT THEY KNEW WE HAD TO DO.

I HAVE PROFOUND CONCERNS WITH SOME OF THE TACTICAL CONCERNS OF HOW THE WITHDRAWAL WAS STAGED.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DECISION NOT TO MAINTAIN CONTROL OF BAGHRAM AIR BASE, WHICH WOULD HAVE MADE THE WITHDRAWAL EASIER.

I WANT TO NOTE THAT WHAT IS BILLED AS A GIANT DISASTER FOR THE AMERICAN MILITARY, THE TOTAL NUMBER OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS KILLED IS ZERO, AND WE HAVE ALREADY GOTTEN MORE THAN 40,000 PEOPLE OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, WITH THE RATE OF PEOPLE BEING EVACUATED GOING UP EVERY DAY.

I DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE UNBELIEVABLE HUMANITARIAN CAPACITY THAT IS GOING TO BE UNLEASHED ON AFGHANISTAN.

BUT WHAT WE SHOULD LEARN IS THERE IS NO SCENARIO WHERE WE LEFT AND THE TALIBAN DID NOT RUN THE COUNTRY.

WE COULD BE THERE, OR THE TALIBAN COULD BE IN CONTROL.

THERE IS NO SET WHERE WE WERE NOT THERE AND THEY WERE NOT THERE.

SO BIDEN CORRECTLY SAID, IT IS GOING TO BE NOW OR LATER.

WELL, WE'RE SPENDING $3BILLION A MONTH IN AFGHANISTAN, WE'RE LOSING AMERICAN LIVES IN AFGHANISTAN, TO DO THAT TO PUT OFF THE INEVITABLE FOR ANOTHER FIVE, 10, 15, 20 YEARS SEEMS THE DEFINITION OF BAD LEADERSHIP.

I GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR SAYING THAT, IT IS TIME TO GO.

>> Reilly: THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE, EVERYTHING YOU BOTH SAID.

LET ME ASK YOU, GAUTAM MUKUNDA, THE PART I HAVE THE HARDEST TIME WITH, NOT THAT WE DECIDED NOT TO DIG IN AND SPEND MORE TIME ON WHAT SEEMS TO BE AN UNWINNABLE WAR, BUT THAT WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF LEAVING BEHIND PEOPLE WHO PUT THEIR LIVES AT RISK TO TRY TO HELP US WHEN WE THOUGHT WE COULD WIN THE WAR THERE.

AND THAT GOES BACK TO YOUR POINT ABOUT BAGHRAM.

I AM NO MILITARY EXPERT, BUT I FIND MYSELF WONDERING, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE, WHY COULDN'T WE HAVE THOUGHT TO GET SOME OF THESE PEOPLE TO SAFETY BEFORE ALLOWING THE INEVITABLE COLLAPSE TO OCCUR?

>> THIS IS A NON-NEGOTIABLE.

SETH IS AN OLD AND DEAR FRIEND OF MINE.

THIS IS ONE PLACE WHERE HE HAS BEEN HEROIC IN THE FACE OF SIGNIFICANT POLITICAL OPPOSITION, STANDING UP AND SAYING, LOOK, WE HAVE TO GET THESE PEOPLE OUT.

THE PROBLEM IS, IF YOU SAY WE'RE GOING TO PULL 100,000 PEOPLE OUT OF AFGHANISTAN OUT BEFORE WE PULL OUR LAST 2500 TROOPS OUT, DO YOU THINK ANYONE IN AFGHANISTAN WOULD NOT HAVE REALIZED WE WERE GONE?

RIGHT?

WE WOULD HAVE PRECIPITATEED EXACTLYPRECIPITATEDTHE EVENT WE HAVE JUST SEEN.

THE FAILURE OF THE ADMINISTRATION TO PREPARE -- THE ONE THING I'LL SAY IN MITIGATION HERE IS THEY'RE DOING THIS WITHOUT A TEAM.

THE SENATE HAS NOT CONFIRMED MOST OF BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY TEAM.

THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR EXECUTING ON THIS ARE NOT IN THE JOB YET.

WHICH IS A DISASTER OF ANOTHER ORDER.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THE PREPARATION FOR THE VISAS AND THE HANDLING -- IT NEEDED TO BE BROUGHT BACK UP TO SCALE MUST FASTER THAN IT WAS.

THE ADMINISTRATION, IF YOU GOT THEM, WOULD ADMIT THEY DID NOT HANDLE IT AS WELL AS THEY SHOULD HAVE.

WE NEED TO DO BETTER.

>> Reilly: TINA, I HEAR YOU RAISING A DESCENTING VOICE.

WHAT WERE YOU GOING TO SAY?

>> I THINK GUATAM, YOU HAVE DONE A GREAT JOB OF DELINEATEING YOUR LOGIC, AND REPEALING THE LODGING I THINK YOU HEAR ME SAYING.

MY CONCERN IS THERE IS THIS CONUNDRUM, YOUR ARGUMENT IS IF WE HAD BEGUN TO PULL PEOPLE OUT EARLIER, THE TALIBAN WOULD HAVE BECOME AWARE AND WE STILL WOULD HAVE DECENTER GRATEDDISSENTDISSENTIGREATD.

IT IS NOT MERELY THIS FULLY ORGANIZED ENTITY THAT HAS A LOT OF -- IN COLLABORATION WITH WHAT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT MIGHT HAVE.

I THINK THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION.

SO FOR ME -- >> THE CRITICAL ISSUE -- >> HOLD ON.

LET ME FINISH.

SO FOR ME THE ISSUE IS, I'M AGNOSTIC TO THE GO/NO GO DECISION.

THAT'S WHERE I THINK YOU FIRST MISINTERPRETED MY COMMENTS.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT WE NEEDED TO STAY LONGER IN AFGHANISTAN OR THAT WE NEEDED TO LEAVE RIGHT NOW OR LATER.

MY POINT IS SIMPLY THAT WHEN I LOOK AT THE RESEARCH THAT I'VE DONE ON THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THERE COULD HAVE BEEN SOME SURREPTITIOUS, BEHIND THE SCENES GOING ON THAT COULD HAVE HELPED GET PEOPLE OUT OF AFGHANISTAN SO THAT THE TALIBAN WAS NOT IN A POSITION TO KNOW THAT THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND THEN PICK UP STEAM.

NOW, MAYBE THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED REGARDLESS, BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS A MORAL NON-CALCULATION.

>> Reilly: I WANT TO PULL BACK FOR A SECOND.

THIS IS A FASCINATING AND COMPLEX DISCUSSION, AND WE COULD CONTINUE FOR A BIT, BUT WE ONLY HAVE THREE MINUTES LEFT.

PULLING BACK, JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN IN OFFICE ABOUT EIGHT MONTHS AFTER A LONG CAREER IN PUBLIC LIFE PRIOR TO THAT.

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR WHAT EACH OF YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED AT THIS POINT IN TIME AS IS HIS DISTINCTIVE APPROACH TO LEADERSHIP, AND FOR WHAT HE TOLD US WILL BE HIS ONLY TERM IN OFFICE.

TINA, LET'S GO TO YOU.

>> I THINK HE TRIES TO APPEAL IN THIS WARM, AFFABLE WAY, I'M UNCLE JOE, YOU CAN TRUST ME.

I THINK HE IS A PRESIDENT WHO VERY MUCH -- I THINK HE BELIEVES THAT HE IS COMPORTING WITH THE PROMISES HE MADE DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

SO I THINK HE IS SOMEONE WHO PRIDES HIMSELF ON BEING AUTHENTIC AND TRANSPARENT AND HONEST.

I'LL PAUSE THERE.

GUATAM, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> SO FAR, HE HAS NOT ANNOUNCED THIS WOULD BE HIS ONLY TERM IN OFFICE.

SO THAT WOULD BE A BIG STORY.

>> Reilly: I SAID THAT.

AND I'M PROBABLY REFERRING TO, YOU KNOW, REPORTS I'VE READ ABOUT PRIVATE -- HE'S INDICATED THAT HE IS LIKELY -- THANK YOU FOR THAT VALUABLE COLLECTIVE.

>> I WAS, LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE.

>> WHAT IS STRIKING ABOUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, I THINK THAT HE -- AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW IS THE DEPTH OF HIS EXPERIENCE.

BIDEN HAS 44 YEARS IN SENIOR POLITICAL OFFICE BEFORE HE BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THAT HE IS ALMOST TWICE THAT OF ANY PREVIOUS PRESIDENT.

ALMOST TWICE.

SO WHAT HE SEEMS TO HAVE DONE, IN ESSENCE UNDERSTOOD THE POLITICAL DYNAMICS IN A WAY I WOULD NOT HAVE ANTICIPATED.

HE IS PURSUING EXTRAORDINARY AMBITIOUS GOALS.

OUR BEST ESTIMATE IS THAT THE PAYMENTS THAT HAVE GONE OUT TO FAMILIES ALREADY HAVE CUT CHILD POVERTY IN THE UNITED STATES BY 60%, 6-0, IN ONE YEAR.

HE IS PURSUING A SET OF GOALS OF THE SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION OF THE UNITED STATES WHOSE SCALE HAS BEEN UNSEEN SINCE FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT.

THEY VASTLY SURPASSED THOSE OF BARACK OBAMA.

AT THE SAME TIME HE HAS DONE THAT BY USING ALL OF THE ASSETS THAT TINA HAS IDENTIFIED, THE UNCLE JOE, AND ESSENTIALLY HE IS PURSUING ENORMOUSLY AMBITIOUS GOALS WITH A MASK OF SMALL CHANGE IN SUCH A WAY TO MINIMIZE THE BACKLASH THAT TRICKLED THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS.

THAT IS SORT OF SOLVING A POLITICAL PUZZLE IN A WAY I CERTAINLY DID NOT SEE COMING.

>> Reilly: THAT'S A GREAT NOTE TO END ON.

I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU GUYS FOR ANOTHER 20 MINUTES, BUT YOUR POINT ABOUT REMEMBERING THINGS THAT HAPPENED MORE THAN A WEEK OR TWO AGO IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

GAUTAM MUKUNDA AND TINA OPIE, THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: IT'S AN UNFORTUNATE FACT THAT IN THE DAYS, WEEKS, AND MONTHS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED, MANY WHITE AMERICANS ACTED LIKE RACISM ORIGINATED WITH DEREK CHAUVIN AND WAS ADDRESSED WHEN THE JURY RETURNED ITS VERDICT OF GUILTY.

OTHERS TURNED TO THE WORK OF AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN DR. IBRAM X. KENDI, WHOSE 2019 AND 2016 BOOKS, "HOW TO BE AN ANTI-RACIST" AND "STAMPED FROM THE BEGINNING: THE DEFINITIVE HISTORY OF RACIST IDEAS IN AMERICA," AMONG OTHERS, JUMPED TO THE TOP OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES" BEST-SELLER LIST.

DR. KENDI RECENTLY JOINED JIM ON THE DAY AFTER THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF FLOYD'S MURDER.

>> Jillian: >> Braude: DR. KENDI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> IT'S AN HONOR TO BE ON THIS SHOW.

>> Braude: WHAT CUA WAS YESTERDAY LIKE FOR YOU?

>> I HAD A MIX OF EMOTIONS, BUT PROBABLY THE MOST PREDOMINANT EMOTION WAS REMEMBERING LAST YEAR WHEN I LEARNED THAT GIANNA, GEORGE FLOYD'S DAUGHTER, REALLY MISSED HER FATHER FLYING HER ON HIS BACK.

AND WHEN I LEARNED THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS -- IT REALLY SORT OF BROKE ME DOWN BECAUSE I HAVE A DAUGHTER WHO ALSO LOVES WHEN I FLY HER ON MY BACK AND PLAY AIRPLANE.

SO JUST THINKING THAT THAT HUMAN BEING WAS TREATED LIKE AS IF HE WAS A MONSTER, WHEN THE REAL MONSTER IS RACISM, AND NOW BECAUSE OF THAT MONSTER RACISM, HIS DAUGHTER IS NOT ABLE TO DO THE AIRPLANE GAME WITH HIM IS REALLY WHAT PREDOMINATED WHAT I WAS THINKING YESTERDAY.

>> Braude: WE ALL SEEM TO LIKE TO SAY THIS PAST YEAR HAS BEEN ONE OF A RACIAL RECKONING.

HAS IT BEEN?

>> I THINK FOR SOME PEOPLE, AND, YOU KNOW, FOR SOME PEOPLE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, IT TOOK SOMEONE LIKE GEORGE FLOYD OR EVEN BREONNA TAYLOR OR EVEN THE DISPARITIES DURING COVID, IN WHICH BLACK, BROWN, AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED AT THE HIGHEST RATES, TO REALIZE THERE WAS A HUGE PROBLEM ON OUR HANDS, THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM EXISTED, IT HARMED PEOPLE.

AND SO THEY BECAME MORE AWARE, OR EVEN MORE AWARE OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT.

BUT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE HAD SORT OF CONTINUED TO SWIM IN THEIR OWN DENIAL.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, VIRTUALLY EVERYONE I KNOW SAYS THEY HAVE READ YOUR BOOK.

SORT OF EVERYBODY IN 1963 WAS AT THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON.

BUT EVEN IF THEY HAVE YET TO READ YOUR BOOK, I THINK MOST OF THEM KNOW THAT THE OPPOSITE OF BEING RACIST ISN'T NON-RACIST.

IT IS ACTIVELY ANTI-RACIST.

CAN YOU TRANSLATE INTO PRACTICAL TERMS?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN A TYPICAL DAY OF SOMEONE WHO IS STRIVING TO GET THERE BUT ISN'T QUITE THERE YET.

>> WHAT THAT MEANS IS AS WE EMBARK ON THE WORLD AND WE SEE, FOR INSTANCE, YOU KNOW, A RACIAL GROUP ON THE LOWER END OF THE DISPARITY, WE DON'T THINK IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THOSE PEOPLE.

WHEN WE SEE BLACK PEOPLE DYING FROM POLICE VIOLENCE, WE TRY TO THINK OF, OKAY, WHAT ARE THE POLICIES AND PRACTICES THAT ARE LEADING TO THIS DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF BLACK PEOPLE DYING AT THE HANDS OF POLICE, AND THEN HOW CAN I FIGHT AGAINST THAT?

HOW CAN I CHALLENGE THE IDEAS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE DANGEROUS?

HOW CAN I CHALLENGE THAT IN MY OWN LIFE WHEN I'M WALKING DOWN A STREET AND I SEE A BLACK PERSON THAT I DON'T KNOW, AM I FEELING FEARFUL?

WHEN I DO, HOW DO I CONFRONT MYSELF AND CHANGE MYSELF?

>> Braude: I WOULD LIKE TO TURN TO THE EDITORIAL I MENTIONED, THE EMANCIPATOR, HERE IS PART OF WHAT YOU SAID: "WHEN THE EMANCIPATOR WAS FOUNDED IN 1820, IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THAT SLAVERY 45 YEARS WOULD BE NO MORE.

JUST AS I THINK THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE TODAY WHO CANNOT IMAGINE THERE COULD BE A NATION WITHOUT RACISM AND INEQUALITY.

SADLY I AM ONE OF THEM."

WHAT DO YOU SEE THAT I DON'T?

>> I DON'T THINK WE SEE ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY.

IT IS THAT FOR ME, I DON'T BELIEVE WE CAN CREATE THAT NATION WITHOUT RACIAL INEQUALITY AND INJUSTICE, IF WE DON'T BELIEVE IT IS POSSIBLE.

SOSO OBLILITIONISTS IN BOSTON BELIEVE THEY CAN CREATE THAT.

IT IS THAT IMAGINARY THAT REALLY DROVE THEM, AND THAT HAS TO DRIVE US TODAY.

>> >> Braude: I REMEMBER IN THE OPENING OF YOUR BOOK THAT YOU MADE A CONCESSION THAT I WOULD NEVER MAKE, THAT I GAVE AS A TEEN A STATEMENT THAT WAS RACIST -- IS IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MADE THAT JOURNEY OR IS THAT JUST A PIECE OF YOUR STORY?

>> I DO BELIEVE IN MY CAPACITY THAT PEOPLE CAN CHANGE BECAUSE I KNOW I HAVE CHANGED.

I KNOW THAT 20 YEARS AGO I THOUGHT THE PROBLEM WAS BLACK PEOPLE, AS OPPOSED TO RACISM.

AND IT HAS BEEN A JOURNEY FOR ME -- THIS JOURNEY TO BE ANTI-RACIST, TO OVERCOME AND UNLEARN IDEAS.

I ALSO KNOW, AS SOMEONE WHO IS SURVIVING STAGE 4 COLON CANCER, WHICH WAS VIRTUALLY SORT OF IMPOSSIBLE SORT OF TO DO, THAT EVEN MY OWN PERSONAL STORY SAYS WE CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.

AND I ALSO KNOW HISTORY, IN WHICH THE IMPOSSIBLE HAS HAPPENED TIME AND AGAIN, SO WHY CAN'T IT HAPPEN AGAIN?

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, WE -- THOSE OF US WHO ARE PAYING EVEN SOME ATTENTION HAVE FOCUSED ON RACIAL INJUSTICE IN THE ECONOMY AND POLICING, IN HEALTH CARE, AND SO MANY AREAS -- CAN WE SPEND A MINUTE ON HEALTH CARE.

A RECENT PIECE THAT YOU WROTE IN THE ATLANTIC ABOUT THE CORONAVIRUS, AS YOU SAID A MOMENT AGO, PEOPLE OF COLOR HAVE BEEN ON THE LOSING END OF EVERY SINGLE PART OF THAT, FROM CASES TO DEATHS TO VACCINATIONS.

YOU WROTE: "TO ADDRESS RACIAL HEALTH DISPARITIES, WE NEED DATA EQUALITY."

AND YOU GO ON TO SAY "EQUAL IS NOT ALWAYS EQUITABLE."

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEANT?

>> SURE.

WHAT WE DID RIGHT WAS WE RECOGNIZED AS A NATION THAT ELDERLY PEOPLE WERE DYING AT THE HIGHEST RATES WHEN COMPARED TO MIDDLE-AGED AND YOUNGER PEOPLE FROM COVID-19.

SO WE WERE, LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT, THEY'RE THE MOST VULNERABLE TO DEATH, SO LET'S ENSURE THAT THEY RECEIVE THE VACCINE FIRST.

THAT'S EQUITY.

EQUALITY WOULD HAVE BEEN, LET'S SEND IT OUT TO 20-YEAR-OLDS AS THE SAME RATE WE'RE SENDING IT OUT TO 80-YEAR-OLDS.

AND ALL I WAS STATING IS THAT WE SHOULD ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT BLACK PEOPLE, INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, HAVE DIED AT THE HIGHEST RATES FROM COVID-19, AND SO WHY COULDN'T WE ALSO PROVIDE THE VACCINE FOR THOSE GROUPS FIRST, TOO.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUITY.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN PROVIDING THE VACCINE FOR TE GROUPS WHO HAVE THE GREATEST NEED VERSUS SENDING IT OUT TO EVERYONE EQUALLY.

AND THEN WHAT THAT RESULTED IN IS WHAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THE MOST LIKELY TO DIE FROM COVID-19, AND THEY'RE THE LEAST LIKELY TO BE VACCINATED.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU'VE MENTIONED -- STAYING IN HEALTH CARE FOR A SECOND, YOU MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO YOUR SURVIVAL OF CANCER.

I'M WONDERING WHEN YOU WERE IN THE HOSPITAL YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT, TO ME, ONE OF THE MOST SHOCKING SURVEYS FROM 2016 OR 2017 -- I'M SURE YOU SAW IT -- WHERE WHITE RESIDENTS AND INTERNS, MEDICAL STUDENTS, WERE BEING SURVEYED, AND OVERWHELMING NUMBERS OF THEM, WHEN ASKED ABOUT BLACK PATIENTS, SAID THEIR SKIN WAS THICKER, THEY WERE MORE TOLERANT OF PAIN, AND ON AND ON, THESE STEREOTYPICAL, GROTESQUE MISCONCEPTIONS.

HOW DO WE ESCAPE THAT?

>> SO WE HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO ENSURE THAT POLICE OFFICERS WHO HAVE THE POWER TO HARM AND KILL PEOPLE ARE NOT SORT OF BRIDDLED WITH RACIST IDEAS.

WHAT WE HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT IS HOW MEDICAL PROVIDERS ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO HARM AND KILL PEOPLE.

SO MEDICAL PROVIDERS, IN THEIR EDUCATION -- YOU KNOW, MOST OF THEM TRAIN FOR 12 YEARS.

AND SOME OF THEM CAN TRAIN FOR A DOZEN YEARS, 10 YEARS, AND NOT SYSTEMATICALLY -- AND TO COME OUT OF THAT STILL THINKING THERE IS BLACK BLOOD AND WHITE BLOOD, AND THERE IS DIFFERENT GENETIC MAKEUPS AND PEOPLE NEED TO BE TREATED SORT OF DIFFERENTLY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I AM ONE OF MANY -- I'M MEETING YOU FOR THE FIRST TIME -- WHO ADMIRERS YOUR WORK.

YOU ARE AT THE CENTER OF AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT UNIVERSE.

AND SO WHILE I'M SURE YOU SEE IT AS A COLOSSAL OPPORTUNITY, DO YOU FEEL IMMENSE PRESSURE TO GET IT RIGHT WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE ARE HANGING ON SO MANY OF YOUR WORDS AND THOUGHTS?

>> I DO.

I DO SORT OF FEEL THE PRESSURE, BUT I ALSO FEEL THE SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY IN WHICH, I THINK THAT PART OF THE REASON WHY I'M DOING SO MANY DIFFERENT SORT OF THINGS RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, IS BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I'VE BEEN GIVEN, YOU KNOW, HANDED AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY SPEAK ABOUT THE PROBLEM IS RACISM AND NOT PEOPLE.

AND I WANT TO SORT OF USE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE MY PEOPLE AND TO MOVE THIS NATION, YOU KNOW, INTO A DIFFERENT PLACE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, AS A GUY WHO HAD A COUPLE LITTLE GIRLS MAYBE 20 YEARS AGO -- THEY'RE GROWN NOW -- FLYING YOUR KID AROUND THE ROOM IS A GREAT STRESS REDUCER, TRUST ME, IF YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED THAT OUT ALREADY.

BEFORE YOU GO, KYRE IRVING USED TO PLAY FOR THE CELTICS, AND HE NOW PLAYS FOR THE BROOKLYN NETS, AND HE IS COMING BACK HOME TO BOSTON, AND HE WAS QUOTED YESTERDAY AS SAYING HE HOPES THERE ISN'T RACISM, ITIMATING HE EXPERIENCED THAT A LOT WHEN HE WAS HERE.

THAT COMES YEARS AFTER A SURVEY THAT WAS JUST SO DISPIRITING WHEN BLACK AMERICANS WERE ASKED TO RATE EIGHT TOWNS AND CITIES IN THIS COUNTRY AS TO THEIR WELCOMING NATURE.

THE LEAST WELCOMING TOWN/CITY IN A LANDSLIDE WAS BOSTON.

YOU CHOSE TO MOVE HERE, LOCATE YOUR CENTER HERE.

HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED THE BOSTON THEY DESCRIBE?

OR NO, DR. KENDI?

>> SO I'VE LIVED ALL UP AND DOWN THE EAST COAST, FROM TAL TALLAHASSEE TO WASHINGTON, D.C. TO GROWING UP IN NEW YORK CITY TO GOING TO GRADUATE SCHOOL IN PHILADELPHIA, TO NOW LIVING IN BOSTON, AND I ACTUALLY HAVE YET TO LIVE IN A CITY THAT DID NOT HAVE RACIAL DISPARITIES AND INEQUITIES.

I HAVE YET TO LIVE IN A CITY WHERE THERE WASN'T THIS BELIEF THAT THE BLACK SIDE OF TOWN WAS THE DANGEROUS SIDE OF TOWN.

I HAVE YET TO LIVE IN A CITY WHERE THAT BLACK TOWN -- I SHOULD SAY NEIGHBORHOOD -- WAS NOT STARVED OF RESOURCES.

SO IT IS CERTAINLY THE CASE IN BOSTON, BUT WHAT I ALSO KNOW SORT ABOUT BOSTON, AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I CHOSE TO COME TO BOSTON, IS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I HAVE A SORT OF -- MY MEMORY OF BOSTON REALLY EXTENDS BACK TO THE 19th CENTURY.

AND THIS WAS A TOWN, THIS WAS A PLACE, WHERE PEOPLE WERE CONSIDERED CRAZY FOR DREAMING AND IMAGINING THAT WE CAN ABOLISH SLAVERY.

FROM MARIAH STEWART TO CHARLES SUMNER AND OTHERS.

SO I AM SPECIFICALLY DRAWN TO THAT ASPECT OF THE CITY'S HISTORY, THAT SORT OF ABOLITIONIST CITADEL.

IT WAS ONCE THE CRADLE OF ANTI-SLAVERY, AND SO WHY CAN'T WE BECOME THE CRADLE OF ANTI-RACISM, ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE THINK THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

>> Braude: IBRAM X. KENDI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Reilly: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW.

HAVE A GOOD EVENING, AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org