>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY .

FROM KYIV, UKRAINE, HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

UKRAINE HAS HAD SOME SUCCESS IN ITS COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

REPORTS FROM THE FRONT LINE AS CIVILIANS STRUGGLE TO SURVIVE.

I SPEAK TONIGHT WITH UKRAINE'S FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER, JOINING ME HERE IN KYIV.

THEN, WHY ARE SOME GRUMBLING ABOUT THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE?

WE GET THAT STORY FROM FORMER CIA OFFICIAL.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> WHEN PEOPLE LOSE CONFIDENCE, THEN I THINK WE ARE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE AS A COUNTRY.

>> PRESERVING AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

SPEAKING ABOUT WHY HE THINKS HIS FELLOW REPUBLICANS ARE WRONG ABOUT BIAS IN THE JUSTICE >>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J. BLECHNER, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG .

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AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

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THANK YOU.

EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN UKRAINE, AT A TIME THEY ARE FACING A CRITICAL COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY IS REPORTING ADVANCES IN THIS REGION.

AS BATTLES CONTINUE ALONG THE FRONT LINES, SOME OFFICIALS SAY THEY ARE EVACUATING CHILDREN FROM AREAS CLOSE TO THE FIGHTING.

NOW, CORRESPONDENCE ALL ABOUT THAT DESPITE THESE MILITARY GAINS.

LITTLE HAS CHANGED FOR CIVILIANS AND SHE HAS THIS REPORT .

JUST FOUR MILES FROM THE FRONT LINE.

>> Reporter: EACH WEEK, SHE WAITS FOR HER OWN SUPPLY.

OR RATHER, HER VILLAGES.

IT IS TOO DANGEROUS FOR CARRY AT THE REST OF THE WAY.

I CAN'T ABANDON THE PEOPLE, SHE SAYS.

THE ELDERLY.

SHE QUOTED SOVIET ERA SAYING, IF NOT YOU, THEN WHO?

EVEN IN THE CENTER OF THE CITY, THERE AREN'T MANY PEOPLE LEFT.

ARE ONLY FIVE KILOMETERS AWAY.

PRESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS LIKE THIS ONE HAVE BEEN ON THE FRONT LINE FOR A YEAR AND A HALF.

THE FEW RESIDENTS THAT ARE LEFT HERE SAY IT IS DAY AND NIGHT.

ABOUT 500 CIVILIANS LEFT IN THIS TOWN FROM SEVERAL THOUSAND BEFORE THE WAR.

SO FAR, THEY SAY THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE HASN'T MADE THINGS MUCH WORSE , NOR HAS IT MADE ANY BETTER.

IT IS DANGEROUS EVERY DAY, SAYS EEYORE SAMSONITE.

OVERNIGHT, THE ROOF OF THAT HOUSE WAS HIT, AND THE BUILDING WAS ON FIRE JUST THE OTHER DAY.

AS WE EXPECT, THE DAMAGE DONE BY LAST NIGHT'S ARTILLERY FIRE, A RUSSIAN DRONE INSPECTS US , EXPLODING JUST AS WE LEAVE.

THERE ARE SERVICES WHO HAVE BEEN SHOWING US AROUND.

PEOPLE ARE USED TO THE WORK, SAYS THIS MAN.

BEFORE A SHELL INTERRUPTS HIM.

THOSE THE EMERGENCY SERVICES CAN'T GET TO RELY ON PEOPLE LIKE SVITLANA.

SHE WILL NOW WALK WITH WHAT SHE CAN PUSH ON HER BIKE FOR MORE THAN AN HOUR TOWARDS ENEMY FIRE.

WITH FOUR HER DOG FOR COMPANY, SHE SAYS SHE IS NEVER AFRAID.

>>'S UKRAINIAN FORCES ARE MAKING WELCOME PROGRESS IN THE SOUTH, BUT THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE WAS SO HEAVILY TOUTED THAT NOW QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PHASE ARE COMING FAST AND FURIOUS.

MILITARY OFFICIALS HERE INSIST ALL IS GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN.

OUR FIRST GUEST IS THE FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER , WHO REMAINS A KEY ADVISER TO THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT AND IS JOINING ME HERE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IS IT GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN?

>> IT IS CERTAINLY GOING.

AS YOU KNOW, THE PLAN IS ALWAYS CHANGING.

IT NEVER HAPPENS ACCORDING TO ANY SCHEDULE.

SO THIS IS WHAT WE EXPECT.

IT IS HAPPENING AS MUCH AS IS POSSIBLE.

PEOPLE ARE DOING ALL THAT IS NECESSARY AND IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT CHALLENGE BECAUSE THIS IS A VERY EXTREMELY SERIOUS OPERATION.

IT IS A DIFFICULT TERRITORY WITH THE FORTIFICATIONS.

WE CANNOT APPLY THE STANDARD WESTERN NATO DOCTRINES .

>> BECAUSE THERE IS NO AVIATION.

>> YEAH.

SO WE NEED TO INVENT THE WAY TO WIN IN THIS SITUATION.

OF COURSE, WE WILL HAVE A IT AS WE ARE GOING.

>> OKAY.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS THE PROGRESS?

WE HAVE HEARD FROM YOUR MINISTRY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN LIBERATED.

IS THAT THE RIGHT WORD?

>> YES.

>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO HAVE DONE?

WHAT LINES DO THEY HAVE TO PENETRATE?

>> FIRST AND FOREMOST, THERE IS THIS DIRECTION TO THE SOUTH AND WE LOOK TO THE OTHER SIDE AND WE CAN'T JUST LOOK AT ONE AREA AND FORGET ABOUT ALL OTHERS.

WE NEED TO KEEP THE LINE EVERYWHERE AND KEEP PUSHING ON THE SOUTH.

THAT IS WHERE IT IS GOING.

DAY BY DAY, WE WILL LIBERATE MORE AND MORE TERRITORY.

>> SO I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE FROM YOUR OWN DEFENSE MINISTER , JUST YESTERDAY, ADDRESSING PEOPLE'S COMPLAINTS , CERTAINLY ALLIED.

MAYBE A LOT OF UNNAMED SOURCES IN THE WEST, BUT YOU HEARD THE COMPLAINTS.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

FORWARD IN OUR COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

THERE ARE CERTAIN CHANGES THAT ARE NOT AS QUICK AS EVERYONE WANTED.

IT IS NOT LIKE IN A MOVIE.

YOU GO TODAY AND FINISHED TOMORROW.

WE ARE MOVING WITHOUT STOPPING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PLAN.

>> SO HE SAYS WE ARE MOVING WITHOUT STOPPING IN ACCORDANCE TO THE PLAN, SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU SAID.

WHAT YOU SAY TO YOUR ALLIES, LET'S FACE IT, WHO HAVE PROVIDED AND FURNISHED YOU WITH BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF AID, OF MILITARY HARDWARE, OF AMMUNITION, OF INTELLIGENCE, WHO ARE WONDERING WHAT IS GOING ON UP THERE?

>> WELL, WE ARE AVIDLY TELLING THEM THAT WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO MAKE THIS SUCCESSFUL.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE UNREASONABLE.

WE ARE GOING TO SAVE OUR PEOPLE AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

WE ARE GOING TO NOT DO THINGS JUST TO SHOW THAT WE CAN DO SOMETHING BY THE END OF THE SUMMER, BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE WAY THE UKRAINIAN ARMY WORKS.

WE DON'T DO THINGS BY DATE.

WE ARE VERY DILIGENT AND VERY CAREFUL AND WE DO THINGS IN ORDER TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE WITH ALL THE SOURCES WE HAVE.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE FRUSTRATIONS WE SOMETIMES HEAR, THEY COME FROM THE FRONT LINE.

YES, SOMETIMES PEOPLE COME FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN THE FRUSTRATIONS ARE OFTEN BASED IN EXPECTATIONS, WHICH WOULD DEVELOP NOT EXACTLY IN UKRAINE AND NOT EXACTLY ON THE FRONTLINE.

AGAIN, THE UKRAINIAN ARMY DID NOT PROVIDE THIS SCHEDULE, WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ADHERED TO AND NOW SUDDENLY, IT HAPPENS THE OTHER WAY.

IT IS A WAR.

IT IS A VERY CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT.

PEOPLE NEED TO BE PATIENT AND UNDERSTAND IT.

WHERE WORKING AS FAST AND AS BEST AS IS POSSIBLE.

>> WE HEARD FROM YOUR SIDE.

WE HEARD FROM LOGGERS ON YOUR SIDE, ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A DESCRIPTION OF VERY CLOSE COMBAT IN THE SOUTH, ALMOST FACE-TO-FACE.

SOME CHAOS .

YEAH.

SOME PANIC.

SIDE, INCREDIBLY WELL-PLANNED.

TO DIG A LOT OF LINES, TO DIG A LOT OF TRENCHES.

DO YOU KNOW HOW DEEP THEIR DEFENSES ARE?

>> YES.

SOMETIMES THEY ARE AS DEEP AS 30 KILOMETERS.

THERE IS NO PANIC ON THE UKRAINIAN SIDE.

WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH AND THAT IS WHY WE DO IT STEP-BY-STEP.

STEP-BY-STEP WE GO THROUGH THIS.

IN MANY CASES, YOU CAN FIND OUT HOW THEY DO THE WAR BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE WAR THAT WAS RECENTLY DONE.

NOBODY HAD AN EXPERIENCE GOING THROUGH THE MINEFIELDS WITH THIS UPPER SQUARE METER SOMETIMES.

IT IS JUST NORMAL.

PROBABLY UKRAINE IS THE MOST MIND COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW BY FAR.

EACH TERRITORY IS DIFFERENT, OF COURSE.

SO IT IS SOMETHING TO WORK OUT.

>> SO YOU ARE THE FORMER DEFENSEMAN AND YOU'RE STILL AN ADVISER TO THE GOVERNMENT ON WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY , FOR YOU ALL, THE PLANES ARE SO IMPORTANT?

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THEM FOR THIS COUNT, BUT YOUR OWN GROUND COMMANDER, HE HAS SAID, HOW CAN YOU EXPECT US TO DO EVERYTHING ON THE GROUND WERE WE DON'T EVEN HAVE AIR COVER?

WE DON'T HAVE AIR SUPREMACY OR EVEN AIR SUPERIORITY?

>> NATO HAS STOOD THERE AND THE NATO FORCE HAS SUPREMACY OR AT LEAST SUPERIORITY, WHICH MEANS IT HAS AN ADVANTAGE IN THE END.

THE PLANES PROVIDE LONG-RANGE FIREPOWER SO WE CAN HIT OUR ENEMY IN THE DEEP.

>> BUT YOU DON'T HAVE -- >> WE HAVE ALL THE PLANES, WHICH ARE NOT AS COMPETITIVE AS THE RUSSIAN PLANES AT THE MOMENT.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE TALKING TO OUR WESTERN ALLIES, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE UNITED STATES.

AT THE MOMENT, WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THEM FOR THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, TO APPLY THE PROPER DOCTRINE OF FIGHTING THE WAR, WE DO NEED PLANES, OF COURSE.

>> HAVE YOU HEARD AGAIN, SOME OF THESE ARE ANONYMOUS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, GETTING IN TOUCH WITH GENERALS, THAT THE U.S. AND NATO WAS KIND OF SURPRISED BY HOW YOU ARE STILL PAYING SO MUCH ATTENTION TO THE AREAS NORTH AND EAST WHEN THEY SUGGESTED YOU SHOULD THROW EVERYTHING A DEFINABLE GOAL IN THE SOUTH.

>> IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ADVISE THEM TO DO LIBERATION ON THAT SCALE FROM ACROSS THE OCEAN, TO BE HONEST.

THEY NEED TO KNOW NOT JUST DETAILS OF WHERE THE FORCES ARE ALLOCATED, BUT THESE ARE MILLIONS EVERY DAY THAT WE GO THROUGH.

WE MAKE THESE DECISIONS.

RIGHT DECISIONS IS NEVER IDEAL.

WHEN WE DO MAKE DECISIONS TO FIGHT FOR SOME AREAS, IT MEANS THAT THERE ARE SOME STRATEGIC REPARATIONS OR VALUE BECAUSE IF WE LOSE IT, THEN ISSUES CAN DEVELOP THERE.

THEY ARE ADVANCING IN OTHER DIRECTIONS.

A YEAR AGO, RUSSIANS WANTED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THIS AND THEN CLAIM THAT THEY ONE, AND BASICALLY THEY TURN SOMETHING PEACEFUL INTO A NIGHTMARE.

AND WE PREVENTED THEM DOING THAT.

THERE OFFENSIVE HAD FAILED IN JANUARY, FEBRUARY, MARCH.

SO THERE WAS SOME DEGREE OF SUCCESS, BUT OF COURSE, IT IS LIKE , IN ANY WARS OF THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

>> IT IS SAID THAT THE RUSSIANS SENT SOME OF THE BETTER, ELITE TROOPS TO THE FRENCH TO CONFRONT YOUR COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

IT IS SAID THAT SEVERAL MONTHS AGO, MAYBE THE DEATH TOLL WAS, FOR YOU, MAYBE AROUND 70,000, ACCORDING TO THE U.S. NOW, REPORTS ARE THAT IT COULD BE 70,000 DEAD AND WOUNDED, AND ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE, 500,000 ALTOGETHER SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR.

IT IS A HUGE TOLL FOR INCHES.

>> WE ARE NOT COMMENTING .

THIS, WE DON'T DO.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, THEY ARE VERY HIGH.

THEY ARE VERY HIGH AND WE SEE THESE BECAUSE WE SEE THE FUNERALS HAPPENING.

I ATTENDED ONE THIS MORNING FOR THE SERVICE PERSON AND THIS IS TRAGIC.

SO THE WAR IS NOT EASY FOR US, ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND NOW THEY HAVE FOUR TIMES MORE THAN YOU HAVE.

WHAT HAPPENS, TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE?

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THIS CONTINUES?

IT IS NOT GOING TO END ANYTIME SOON.

>> THE WAR CANNOT BE DETERMINED BY MATHEMATICS.

IT IS NOT ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WE HAVE AND HOW THE PEOPLE THEY HAVE.

THEY HAD PEOPLE IN THE BEGINNING AND EXPERTS THOUGHT THAT UKRAINE WOULD STOP EXISTING BY MARCH 2022.

IT IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

WE ARE MOTIVATED.

WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING.

WE KNOW WHAT COUNTRY WE ARE FIGHTING WITH.

WE KNOW THE SHORTCOMINGS OF RUSSIANS.

YES, INDEED, THEY HAVE LOTS OF MONEY AND LOTS OF PEOPLE, BUT IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THAT.

IT IS ABOUT THESE CAPABILITIES AND WE ARE BETTER THAN THEM.

>> SO COMPLEX CAPABILITIES.

WE HAVE NOTICED OR SO, MAYBE LONGER, UKRAINE DID A VERY INTERESTING OPERATION.

I THINK IT IS CALLED A SWARM DRONE OPERATION INTO PREMIER.

CERTAIN RUSSIAN TARGETS INTO A CURSE AND OTHER TARGETS INSIDE OF RUSSIA ITSELF.

ARE YOU STEPPING UP THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY?

>> JUST SO YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOT COMMENTING, AGAIN, WHO DID THE OPERATIONS IN RUSSIA, BECAUSE AGAIN, THIS IS -- >> RUSSIA?

>> NO, UKRAINE.

>> ARE YOU COMMENTING ON THAT?

>> WE ARE UKRAINE AND WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE LIKE IN UKRAINE.

>> ARE YOU DOING IT?

>> WE ARE CERTAINLY LOOKING AT DIFFERENT OPERATIONS IN UKRAINE.

OUR FORCES ARE SAYING THAT THESE WERE SPECIFIC FORCES.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE OPERATIONS DONE HERE AND THEN THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS WE DO NOT COMMENT ON FOR VARIOUS REASONS.

BUT INDEED, WE ARE COMING TO THE NEW PHASE OF HUMAN WARFARE WHEN THERE WILL BE DRONE WARS.

THAT IS TRUE.

WE ARE ENTERING THIS PHASE AND THE PEOPLE WILL SEE MORE ON THIS PLATFORM, SO I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH -- >> AND IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

>> IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

SO THE STEP WE ARE MAKING -- >> HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT?

IT SEEMS THAT NEITHER OF YOU CAN MAKE A MOVE WITHOUT BEING SEEN FROM ABOVE.

YOU KNOW.

IT IS APPARENTLY VERY OPEN TERRAIN .

NOT MANY TREE LINES DOWN IN THE SOUTH.

NOT MUCH AREA TO TAKE COVER UNDER.

>> YES, IT IS ONE OF THE MOST TRANSPARENT WORDS IN HUMAN HISTORY AND ALL OF THE FUTURE WARS WILL BE TRANSPARENT BECAUSE OF THE DRONES, THE SOCIAL MEDIA, AND SO ON.

WE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE WITH THE TRANSPARENCY OF THE WAR AND ALSO WITH THE SO-CALLED MILITARIZATION OF THE COASTAL PLATFORMS WHEN THE DRONE IS COSTING LIKE $500 AND THE TANK CAN COST MILLIONS.

SO WE LOOK AT THESE ATTACKS TO THE RUSSIAN SHIPS , WITH THE DRONES, WHICH OBVIOUSLY ARE IN THAT IS WHERE IT IS GOING.

IT IS GOING TO THIS SMALLER PLATFORM.

AUTONOMOUS PLATFORMS, OR DISTANT RUN PLATFORMS AND SO ON.

>> SO THE ADVANTAGE THEN GOES TO THE MOST AGILE, THE MOST ADAPTABLE?

>> YES.

THE ONES WHO QUICKLY ADJUST TO THE NEW ENVIRONMENT AND NEW INNOVATIONS.

SO THIS IS THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF THE PLATFORM AND FAST DELIVERY OF THE NEW PLATFORMS.

THAT IS OUR PROCESS.

>> I KNOW YOU OPERATE A LOT OF THE ORDERS , THE GPS TARGETING, AND ALSO THE INTERNET, BASICALLY.

YOU ARE FAIRLY DEPENDENT, IF NOT ENTIRELY DEPENDENT, UPON STARLING, WHICH IS RUN BY ONE PERSON WHO MAY OR MAY NOT DECIDE THAT WHEN THE, HE FAVORS THE OTHER SIDE.

WHAT GUARANTEE DO YOU HAVE?

>> IT IS NOT ABOUT GUARANTIES.

IT IS ABOUT DEMOCRATIC WORLD AND THE STANDING THAT STRATEGIC TECHNOLOGIES HAVE RESPONSIBLY.

BECAUSE IF WE ARE CONDUCTING INTEREST OF THE WHOLE DEMOCRATIC WORLD, THERE MUST BE SOME REASON BEHIND THE DECISIONS.

I SINCERELY HOPE THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO DEPEND UPON SOMEBODY DECIDING SUBJECTIVELY WHETHER TO TURN IT OVER AND IT IS NOT HOW THE WORLD SHOULD BE RUN.

IT IS NOT ABOUT THIS OPERATION.

SO I HOPE FOR THE BEST.

>> HERE WE ARE AT PRACTICALLY THE END OF YOUR SECOND SUMMER AT WAR AND IT IS SAID, CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, THAT THE MOST FIGHTING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO IN THE NEXT SIX OR SO WEEKS , BEFORE THE RAIN STARTS AND THE GROUND GETS MUDDY.

TELL ME WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN THE NEXT MONTH OR TWO MONTHS, INTO THE FALL.

>> YES.

EXCEPT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS KIND OF OPERATION.

WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE DRONES OPERATIONS.

IT IS NOT JUST LIKE EVERYTHING IN NOVEMBER.

FIRST OF ALL, THE WEATHER IS DIFFERENT.

FIRST OF ALL, IT IS VERY WARM AND OPERATION CAN RUN LONGER.

IT IS ABOUT RELATING TO OTHER PEOPLE.

EACH VILLAGE , WHAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, THERE ARE PEOPLE SUFFERING IN THESE PLACES.

WE SEE HORRIBLE STORIES FROM EVERY VILLAGE WHICH WE LIVE IN RIGHT NOW.

SO OUR JOB IS TO LIBERATE AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.

>> AND TO KEEP DOING THAT, IN ORDER TO KEEP WESTERN SUPPORT.

DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAVE TO SHOW SOMETHING FOR ALL OF THIS , IN ORDER TO KEEP GETTING THE SUPPORT?

>> PEOPLE NEED TO SEE THE PROGRESS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE NOT DOING THIS FOR SOMEONE.

WE ARE DOING THIS FOR US.

OUR PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY UNDER OCCUPATION AND THEY ARE SUFFERING.

EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST SECONDARY.

WHEN WE SEE THESE REPORTS FROM WHERE THEY ARE RIGHT NOW, I MEAN, THAT IS THE ONLY THING WE CAN BE CONSIDERING RIGHT NOW.

>> ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

REALLY INTERESTING.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AS HE SAID, MILITARY VOICES POKING HOLES IN KYIV'S ALLEGATIONS OF RESOURCES AND COMBAT OPERATIONS.

I AM JOINED NOW BY THE FORMER CIA DIRECTOR, RETIRED DIRECTOR DAVID AND HE SAYS THAT HE MIGHT YET SURPRISE CRITICS.

GENERAL POTREYAS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN, CHRISTIANE.

>> THE FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER HAD SOME REALLY INTERESTING THINGS TO SAY ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING, HOW THEY ARE DOING IT, AND HOW IT IS GOING BY AND LARGE ACCORDING TO THE PLAN AS FAR AS A WORK IN.

>> I DID HERE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS A TERRIFIC INTERVIEW, ACTUALLY.

I WOULD ADD TO THAT, NO PLAN SURVIVES CONTACT WITH THE ENVY AND THAT HAS BEEN TRUE IN THIS CASE.

CERTAINLY THERE ARE HOPES WITH THE TANKS AND VEHICLES AND OTHER SYSTEMS THAT THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO COMBINE THESE SYSTEMS THAT COULD PENETRATE THE RUSSIAN DEFENSES, BUT THAT WAS BEFORE WE ALL LEARNED ABOUT THE DEPTH OF THESE DEFENSES, ABOUT THE SOPHISTICATION OF THEM.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE NOT DISTINGUISHED THEMSELVES IN MANY RESPECTS OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF OR SO, BUT THIS DEFENDANTS OF DEPTH IS QUITE FORMIDABLE.

IT IS GOOD NEWS THOUGH, NOW, THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE ADAPTED, I THINK, VERY IMPRESSIVELY.

I THINK IN THE WEST, THEY OUGHT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT UKRAINIANS PROBABLY KNOW BEST.

THIS IS THEIR OWN TERRAIN.

THEY KNOW BEST THEIR OWN TROOPS.

THEY KNOW THEIR STRENGTHS AND THEIR WEAKNESSES, ONE OF WHICH IS, OF COURSE, THE LACK OF AIRPOWER.

WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THE LACK OF AIR SUPERIORITY OR SUPREMACY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING THAT CAN INFLUENCE THIS FIGHT AND ONE REASON THEY CAN'T GET THROUGH IS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T USE THEIR POWER TO KEEP THE ENEMIES HEADS DOWN, TO KEEP THE ARTILLERY FROM RESPONDING, AND SO FORTH.

THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN DOING THIS QUITE IMPRESSIVELY.

THEY KEEP THE RUSSIANS ENGAGED ALL ACROSS THE FRONT OF THE 600 MILES.

THEY PICK THEIR WAYS THROUGH THESE MINEFIELDS AND THEY HAVE BEEN MAKING PROGRESS.

LINE OF DEFENSE IS IN THE AREA, WHICH IS WHY, AS YOU NOTED, THE RUSSIANS HAVE HAD TO MOVE SOME OF THEIR MORE ELITE TROOPS, THE AIRBORNE FORCES, TO BACK UP SOME OF THE RUSSIANS IN THAT AREA.

THAT IS A GOOD SIGN BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS DON'T HAVE THAT MANY RESERVES THAT ARE UNCOMMITTED, BUT THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO BE GOING AFTER, THE UKRAINIANS ARE GOING TO BE GOING AFTER THE LOGISTICAL SITES.

THE AMMUNITION STORAGE POINTS.

THE UTILITY AREAS.

IT IS DIFFICULT TO GET THROUGH THESE MINEFIELDS AND TRENCHES AND SO FORTH.

THEY ARE EVEN GOING DEEPER, AS YOU NOTED, AFTER THE LARGE BASES MARITIME AND AIR.

THEY ARE TRYING TO CUT LINES OF COMMUNICATION.

THE LOGISTICS AND ALL OF THIS IS, AGAIN, SLOW, HARD, BUT THEY ARE MAKING PROGRESS.

AGAIN, I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO ENABLE THEM TO SUCCEED IN WHAT WILL PROBABLY START FOR AS LONG AS ANOTHER FOUR MONTHS.

THE WEATHER COULD ALLOW CONTINUED GROUND OPERATIONS THROUGH NOVEMBER AND WE OUGHT TO BE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO ENSURE THAT THEY HAVE THE AMMUNITIONS TO CONTINUE THAT, TO PROVIDE THE LONGER-RANGE PRECISION MISSILES FOR OUR ROCKET SYSTEM.

ADDITIONAL AIR DEFENSES, AND MUNITIONS AS WELL, SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE THE MOST OF THIS, NOTING THAT THEY ARE ONLY 2 1/2 MONTHS AND AT THIS POINT.

>> RIGHT.

GENERAL PETRAEUS, I AM FIXATED ON THE AIRPOWER BECAUSE YOU JUST SAID IT.

THE FORMER DEFENSE MINITER SAID IT.

AND SO HAS THE GENERAL.

WE CAN'T DO ALL THAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT OF US ON THE GROUND IF WE DON'T HAVE, AS YOU SAID, PROPER FORCE IN THE AIR.

PUT YOUR GENERALS HAT ON.

YOUR HELMET ON.

REMIND US WHAT IT TOOK FOR THE U.S. TO WIN IN, FIRST OF ALL, THE FIRST GULF WAR, AND THEN TO GET SUPERIORITY IN AFGHANISTAN AND ANYWHERE ELSE.

FROM MY MEMORY, AIR WAS THE FIRST THING THAT WAS DEPLOYED.

>> EXACTLY.

AS YOU WILL RECALL, WE POUNDED THE IRAQIS IN KUWAIT FOR 39 DAYS.

AND WE HAD COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE SKIES.

IT WAS COMPLETE AIR SUPREMACY WITH A COUPLE OF ENGAGEMENTS HERE AND THERE.

AND THIS IS WHAT ENABLED US TO SUCCEED IN 100 HOURS OF GROUND OPERATIONS.

OF COURSE, THEY HAD NOTHING LIKE THE VERY FORMIDABLE DEFENSES THAT THE RUSSIANS HAVE ESTABLISHED IN SOUTHERN UKRAINE IN PARTICULAR.

BY THE WAY, WE ALSO HAVE VERY SUBSTANTIAL NUMBERS OF ARMORED BREACHING SYSTEMS, ESPECIALLY BULLDOZERS WITH HUGE ARMOR AND GLASS ON THEM THE ALMOST JUST PLOWED THROUGH THESE.

UKRAINIANS HAVE VERY FEW OF THOSE.

THAT IS ONE OF THE AREAS WE WEREN'T ABLE TO APPLY IN LARGE NUMBERS.

IN THE FLIGHT TO BAGHDAD, THERE WERE SOME STIFF FLIGHTS ALONG THE WAY.

NOTHING LIKE THE DEFENSE THAT THE RUSSIANS ESTABLISHED WITH MULTIPLE LINES OF THESE MINEFIELDS AND TRENCH LINES AND THE DRAGON'S TEETH.

AND WE HAD COMPLETE AIR SUPERIORITY AND REALLY, AIR SUPREMACY , ONCE AGAIN.

SO IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM, IT IS RIGHT OVER YOUR SHOULDER.

BY THE WAY, WE ALSO HAVE ATTACK HELICOPTERS IN MASSIVE NUMBERS.

THE PROBLEM GOES AWAY PRETTY QUICKLY IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY WHERE IT IS.

THAT IS JUST NOT THE CAPABILITY THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE.

WE DIDN'T MAKE THE DECISION ON F-16s MUCH EARLIER.

IT IS A SHAME WE DIDN'T MAKE THE DECISION ON TAKES EARLIER AS WELL BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE ARE STILL ARRIVING FOR THE UKRAINIAN FORCES.

BUT THEY HAVE BUILT A VERY PROFESSIONAL FORCE AND AMONG ENORMOUS EXPERTISE.

I THINK THE KEY HERE IS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE PLAN DID NOT SURVIVE CONTACT WITH THE ENEMY, SO THEY HAVE MADE CHANGES.

BY THE WAY, I THINK WHEN THEY DO CRACK THESE DEFENSES, WHEN THEY THEY DO HAVE RESERVES AND OTHER CAPABILITIES.

I WILL BELIEVE IF WE SEE THOSE POOR INTO THE FIGHTS TO MAKE THE MOST OF THE PROGRESS THEY HAVE ACHIEVED.

>> I AM ALSO VERY MINDFUL OF WHAT EVERYBODY HERE SAYS, EVEN WOUNDED SOLDIERS WHO I MET.

IN THE CENTER IN ODESA YESTERDAY.

THEY ARE TRYING THEIR BEST.

THEY ARE WOUNDED.

THEY WANT TO GO BACK TO THEIR COMRADES AND TO THEIR FIGHTS, BUT THEY KNOW THAT THE OTHER SIDE HAS, AS THEY SAY, FOUR TIMES MORE DISPOSABLE BODIES THEN THEY DO.

IT IS A MUCH BIGGER AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT THE RUSSIANS CAN THROW AT THIS.

WE HAVE SEEN HOW THAT HAS GONE SO FAR.

HOW DO YOU SEE THE RUSSIANS ADAPTING?

WE TALKED ABOUT THE UKRAINIANS.

HOW ARE THEY DOING?

>> THE RUSSIANS HAVE ADAPTED.

WE HAVE TO BE FAIR IN THAT ASSESSMENT.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE USE OF DRAWN BY BOTH SIDES HAS BEEN VERY IMPORTANT.

YOU ARE SEEING THE FUTURE WARFARE AND A SMALL SCALE.

SHORT DISTANCES.

NOT LINKED TO SATELLITES AND SO FORTH.

REALLY, VERY IMPRESSIVE.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE USED ELECTRONIC WARFARE QUITE EFFECTIVELY.

BOTH SIDES HAVE FIGURED OUT HOW TO SHOOT DOWN DRONES.

YOU SEE THIS BACK AND FORTH.

TO BE VERY FAIR, THEY ESTABLISH TO BE VERY FORMIDABLE DEFENSIVE SYSTEMS IN THE SOUTH IN PARTICULAR.

IRONICALLY, OF COURSE, THE GENERAL THE OVERSAW MOST OF THAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN FIRED.

THAT WAS A PART OF WHAT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH PRIGHOZEV.

THEY HAVE ADAPTED, BUT SO HAVE THE UKRAINIANS.

THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY HAVE.

THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE.

THEY ARE MAKING THE MOST OF WHAT IT IS THAT THEY DO HAVE.

HOWEVER, I THINK WE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT WHILE THE RUSSIAN POPULATION MAY BE 3 TO 4 TIMES LARGER THAN THAT OF UKRAINE, PUTIN HAS NEVER FULLY MOBILIZED.

HE IS TRYING TO HAVE THE BRUNT MOSCOW ELITE OR THE WALL EDUCATED OR THE WEALTHY.

IT IS ON THOSE THAT ARE MUCH FARTHER FROM THE CAPITAL.

WE WILL HAVE TO SEE IF THAT IS SUSTAINABLE OVER TIME.

HE HAS ONLY DONE PARTIAL MOBILIZATION, AS YOU WILL RECALL.

THIS IS STILL A SPECIAL OPERATION IN HIS TERMINOLOGY, NOT A WAR.

HE IS TRYING TO SHIELD MUCH OF THE POPULATION FROM IT.

THIS SUMMER, HOW'D UKRAINIANS DO AND WHETHER THEY ARE ABLE TO CUT THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION THAT RUSSIA USES ALONG THE SOUTHEAST COAST OF UKRAINE AND THEN UP THROUGH CRIMEA .

AGAIN, THE UKRAINIANS, THEY DON'T HAVE TO ACTUALLY CUT THE GROUNDS, THEY JUST HAVE TO BE IN RANGE OF THEM WITH OUR TRILOGY TO DISRUPT THEM AND THEN TAKE THE BRIDGES AND OTHER ROUTES THAT COME FROM CRIMEA TO SOUTHERN UKRAINE.

IF THEY CAN DO THAT, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CHANGE THE DYNAMICS OF THIS WAR, WHILE WE ARE, OF COURSE, LEADING THE EFFORT.

THE U.S. IS LEADING THE EFFORT TO IMPOSE GREATER, TIGHTER SANCTIONS ON FINANCIAL , PERSONAL, AND ECONOMIC ENTITIES, AND ALSO TO EXPAND EXPORT CONTROLS AND TO ENFORCE THOSE TO THE GREATEST EXTENT THAT WE POSSIBLY CAN.

AT THE END OF THE DAY , THIS WAR MIGHT POSSIBLY END WITH SOME KIND OF NEGOTIATED RESOLUTION.

BUT PUTIN WILL HAVE TO BE CONVINCED THAT HE CAN'T OUT SUFFER UKRAINE , THE EUROPEANS, AND THE NORTH AMERICANS.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU SAID THAT PUTIN HAS TRIED TO SHIELD HIS COUNTRY PEOPLE FROM IT, BUT MAYBE THAT IS WHAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE TRYING TO DENT AS WELL.

SENDING DRONES INTO MOSCOW.

THE STRATEGIC ATTACKS INTO CRIMEA.

TRYING TO TAKE THE WAR AND SEND IT HOME.

THAT IS ONE OBSERVATION I HAVE.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU THINK THAT THAT WILL TURN THE POPULATION.

IT APPEARS, AFTER THE PRIGOZHIN EVENTS, THAT , YOU KNOW, ANY ATTEMPT TO STEP OUT OF LINE AGAINST PUTIN IS GOING TO BE TIMES RETHOUGHT.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE DEATH OF PRIGOZHIN , AND WHO KNOWS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO WAGNER.

ARE YOU GOING HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT WITH THIS ON THE WAR EFFORT HERE?

>> IT HAS DEPRIVES THE WAR EFFORT THERE OF 25,000 TROOPS.

THEY WERE THE BEST AND THE LEAST OF THE INFANTRY TYPE TROOPS, INCLUDING THE ONLY REAL GAME THIS PAST YEAR IN THE SOUTHEAST AT INCREDIBLE COST.

THEY DID COME THROUGH FOR THEM.

UNLESS THEY SIGNED CONTRACTS FOR THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE, MORE LIKELY, THEY WILL GO WITH ANOTHER MILITARY CONTRACT OR OTHERS THAT MIGHT SEEK TO REPLACE HIM IN AFRICA OR SYRIA OR NORTH AFRICA AND SO FORTH.

PUTIN, THOUGH, I THINK SHOWED HIS STRENGTH.

IT TOOK A WHILE, BUT, YOU KNOW, REVENGE IS BEST EATEN COLD, OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

AND I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.

NO ONE IS GOING TO STEP OUT OF LINE, AT LEAST UNTIL SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS, AND THEN WE WILL SEE.

YOU KNOW THE HISTORY ALWAYS SAYS IT IS INCONCEIVABLE THAT THIS AUTHORITARIAN FIGURE, IN THIS CASE, RUNNING A MOB STATE, AS CLEARLY IS THE CASE, AGAIN, INCONCEIVABLE UNTIL YOU LOOK BACK AND SAY, THAT WAS INEVITABLE.

WE WILL SEE WHAT THE DYNAMICS IN RUSSIA ARE, AS WELL, NOTING THAT, UKRAINE IS FULLY MOBILE.

EVERYONE THERE KNOWS THEY ARE FIGHTING A WAR OF INDEPENDENCE AND SURVIVAL.

INTEGRITY AS AN INDEPENDENT STATE.

THEY ARE COMMITTED, AS YOU CAN SEE.

THE ENTIRE BUSINESS OF UKRAINE IS HELPING WITH THE PRODUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT AND REFINEMENT OF DRONES AND A HOST OF OTHER SYSTEMS NEEDED FOR THE WAR EFFORT .

YOU HAVE ALSO SEEN THEIR COMMITMENT AND THEIR DETERMINATION AND THEIR RESILIENCE.

AND THEIR INDOMITABLE IN THE IMPRESSIVE.

>> TO BE FAIR FROM WHAT YOU WE HEAR INSIDE RUSSIA, THEY ARE TRYING TO MOBILIZE FOR THIS WAR EFFORT.

CERTAINLY MANUFACTURING AND THE LIKE.

I WONDER , THIS LEADS ME TO REFER TO YOUR OP-ED WHEN YOU SAID THAT THE DEFENSIVE COULD GET SURPRISED.

IT COULD YET REALLY SHOW SOMETHING THAT UKRAINIANS INTENDED.

GENERALLY, THIS IS GOING ON IN THE U.S.

RIGHT NOW, MAYBE OTHER AREAS OF THE NATO CAPITALS.

>> I THINK WHAT FOLKS SHOULD BE DOING OUTSIDE OF UKRAINE AND NATO CAPITALS, INCLUDING WASHINGTON, IS TO FIGURE OUT EVEN MORE AGGRESSIVELY HOW TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, HOW TO PROVIDE WHAT THEY NEED, HOW TO SUSTAIN THEM SO THEY CAN MAKE THE MOST OF THE FOUR MONTHS OR SO THAT THEY HAVE LESS IN THIS DEFENSIVE.

RATHER THAN CATEGORIZING THEM.

AS YOU WELL KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN SOME SECOND GUESSING AS A GENERAL OFFICER AND OCCASIONALLY, THE BACKGROUND , BACK IN WASHINGTON OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, COULD BE A BIT FRUSTRATING.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS WILL COME DOWN TO THE BATTLEFIELD, JUST LIKE THE SURGE IN IRAQ.

I REMEMBER BEING TOLD WE HAD A PR PROBLEM OUT THERE.

I SAID, WE HAVE A RESULTS PROBLEM.

ONCE THIS IS DEMONSTRABLY BETTER, THE PR PROBLEM WILL GO AWAY.

THEY ARE IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO ACHIEVE THOSE RESULTS THAT WILL HAVE REAL OPERATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE AS WELL .

AGAIN, I THINK THEY STILL , VERY MUCH, COULD SURPRISE AND ACHIEVE SOMETHING DURING THESE EVENTS, AS HARD AS IT HAS BEEN SO FAR.

>> SO, FINALLY, WE TALK ABOUT SEVERAL MONTHS MORE OF HEAVY FIGHTING, MAYBE EVEN LONGER.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ENDGAME SHOULD LOOK LIKE?

END?

>> OBVIOUSLY, THE DESIRED END STATE WOULD BE TO SEE UKRAINE ABLE TO LIBERATE ALL OF ITS TERRITORY.

THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE DETERMINATION OF EVERYONE FOR PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY ON THE FRONT LINES.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT NEGOTIATION.

AT SOME POINT, IF DYNAMICS CHANGE, PERHAPS THERE CAN BE SOME KIND OF NEGOTIATED RESOLUTION.

I AM NOT GOING TO GET INTO ANYTHING LESS THAN FULL DELIBERATION.

ESPECIALLY IF IT INCLUDES A VERY SUBSTANTIAL MARSHAL -LIKE RECONSTRUCTION PLAN .

THEY'RE WORKING HARD ON THAT AND IT IS DESPERATELY NEEDED, AS YOU HAVE SEEN IN THE COUNTRY NOW.

IT ALSO INCLUDES A GUARANTEED PAST AND NATO MEMBERSHIP .

ALL OF THAT, I THINK, COULD CHANGE THE DYNAMICS, JUST AS GOOD AN AWARENESS IN MOSCOW.

THIS IS OUR NEW AFGHANISTAN.

TROOPS, ONLY, IN 10 YEARS IN AFGHANISTAN, THEY HAVE LOST MANY, MANY TIMES THAT MUCH, JUST IN THE FIRST YEAR AND A HALF OF THIS WAR.

SO AGAIN, WHETHER RUSSIA CAN SUSTAIN THIS, NOTING THAT, YES, THEIR ECONOMY IS MANY TIMES THAT OF UKRAINE'S, AND YES, THEIR POPULATION IS SEVERAL TIMES LARGER, AS WELL.

WE WILL HAVE TO SEE HOW THAT EVOLVES.

THE UKRAINIANS CERTAINLY ARE INTENT ON DEMONSTRATING TO THE RUSSIANS THAT THIS IS A LOSING PROPOSITION, AND WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE POSSIBLY CAN , TOGETHER WITH OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD, TO ENABLE THEM TO DO THAT.

>> GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, ANOTHER TRIAL DATE HAS BEEN SET FOR DONALD TRUMP ON CHARGES OF TRYING TO OVERTURN THE RESULT OF THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

IT WILL BE ON THE FOURTH OF MARCH NEXT YEAR.

THAT IS ONE DAY BEFORE SUPER TUESDAY.

DESPITE FOUR INDEPENDENT GRAND JURIES INDICTING THE FORMER PRESIDENT, HIS REPUBLICAN BASE BELIEVES IT IS ALL POLITICAL.

FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL ALBERTO GONZALES SERVED UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON NOW TO EXPLAIN WHY HE DOES NOT BELIEVE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS BIASED AGAINST REPUBLICANS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GENERAL ALBERTO GONZALIZ, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> AND NOW YOU SAY, NO FELLOW REPUBLICANS, YOU BEING A REPUBLICAN.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS NOT BIASED AGAINST US.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> WELL, I DIDN'T REALIZE IT WOULD BE SO PROVOCATIVE, QUITE FRANKLY, IN TERMS OF THE PROTECTION OF THE RULE OF LAW.

I RAN THE DEPARTMENT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

PEOPLE FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS A DEPARTMENT THAT HAS OVER 100,000 EMPLOYEES AND LESS THAN 1% ARE POLITICAL APPOINTEES.

THERE IS ALWAYS A DANGER , IF YOU HAVE A POLITICAL APPOINTMENT IN THE OFFICE, THAT YOU ENGAGE IN POLITICS, MAKE DECISIONS, INVESTIGATIONS, AND DECISIONS BASED UPON POLITICS, THE CAREER FOLKS NOTICE THAT.

THEY CALL YOU OUT.

THEY HAVE FRIENDS IN THE MEDIA, SO YOU INVITE GREAT DANGER IF YOU START MAKING DECISIONS LIKE THAT.

THAT IS WHY I REALLY QUESTION THIS NOTION THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS BECOME POLITICIZED BECAUSE IT IS PROSECUTING DONALD TRUMP.

BECAUSE HE IS A LEADING FRONT RUNNER.

REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

I HAVE TRIED TO EMPHASIZE, REMIND PEOPLE, OR TELL PEOPLE THAT IN MY JUDGMENT, EVEN IF HE WEREN'T RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, HE WOULD BE INVESTIGATED AND BE PROSECUTED FOR THE THINGS THAT HE IS BEING ACCUSED OF COMMITTING.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THIS IS NOT A WITCH HUNT.

THE DEPARTMENT IS DOING WHAT IT SHOULD BE DOING, WHICH IS TO INVESTIGATE POSSIBLE CRIMINAL WRONGDOING AND TO PROSECUTE CRIMINAL WRONGDOING WHEN THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN SUCCESSFULLY DO SO IN FEDERAL COURT.

>> LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING FROM THE PC EUROS.

YOU SAID, IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO SPEAK OUT FOR THE RHETORIC AND ACTIVITY THAT WE FUNDAMENTALLY KNOW, DEEP IN OUR HEARTS, THAT IS WRONG.

TELL ME WHY REPUBLICANS NEED TO SPEAK OUT, AND MAYBE WHY YOU THINK SO FEW OF THEM REALLY HAVE.

>> WELL, BACK TO THE LATTER.

I CAN'T REALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION WHY THEY FAILED TO SPEAK OUT OTHER THAN PERHAPS OUR POLITICAL LEADERS, THE LEADERSHIP IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, PERHAPS THEY ARE FEARFUL OF SPEAKING OUT AND HOW IT MAY DAMAGE ELECTIONS GOING FORWARD, OBVIOUSLY LOOKING PAST THESE RECENT ELECTIONS.

WE ARE NOT DOING TOO GOOD, QUITE FRANKLY.

AT THE STATE LEVEL OR THE NATIONAL LEVEL.

BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK OUT BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT AT STAKE HERE.

FOR THE LONGEST TIME, I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF SILLY, SOME OF THE RHETORIC COMING FROM THOSE .

BUT NOW I HAVE CONCLUDED THAT IT IS TOO DANGEROUS TO BE SOLID.

WE NEED TO HAVE PEOPLE SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THE DANGERS OF CRITICIZING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, CRITICIZING THE RULE OF LAW.

WHEN PEOPLE LOSE CONFIDENCE IN AN INSTITUTION LIKE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THEN I THINK WE ARE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE AS A COUNTRY.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN THREATS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THESE PROCEEDINGS.

DO YOU THINK THAT SOME OF THE RHETORIC IS STOKING UP THE POSSIBILITY OF VIOLENCE AGAINST EITHER PROSECUTORS, MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY, THAT SORT OF THING?

IF SO, WHAT SHOULD THE JUDGES DO ABOUT THAT?

>> I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT THAT IS POSSIBLE.

I THINK JUDGES HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO INSURE OR TO DISCOURAGE , BY THE ACTIONS, BY MEASURES THAT THEY CAN IMPOSE , IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROSECUTION.

AND, OF COURSE, I THINK THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AS WELL AS STATE GOVERNMENTS, SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WHATEVER RULES A PROCESS MAY BE AVAILABLE TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF WHO ARE SOMEHOW IMPLICATED IN THESE TRIALS.

AND TO BLAME FOR DOING THEIR JOB AND INVESTIGATING PROSECUTING INDIVIDUALS.

YEAH.

I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE DISCOURAGED FROM SPEAKING OUT AND SHOULD NOT BE DISCOURAGED FROM DOING THEIR JOB.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, I THINK THE PEOPLE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, FOR THE MOST PART, DAY IN, DAY OUT.

THEY GO TO WORK TO SERVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> SO YOU, GENERAL COUNSEL, AND THEN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.

HAVE YOU TALKED TO OTHER MEMBERS OF PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION OR THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT BUSH HIMSELF ON THESE THINGS?

>> I HAVEN'T HAD DISCUSSIONS , CERTAINLY NOT WITH PRESIDENT BUSH.

AND FROM TIME TO TIME, I HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, BUT NOT DETAILED DISCUSSIONS.

WE WOULD JUST SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND SAY, WOW.

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?

>> YOU HAVE PEOPLE SHAKING THEIR HEADS AND IT IS JUST DANGEROUS.

WHY DON'T A GROUP OF PEOPLE LIKE THIS ESSAY, WE ARE NOW GOING TO GO TO MORE SHAKING THEIR HEADS.

WE ARE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING.

WE ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING.

>> I LEAVE IT TO OTHERS TO DECIDE WHAT THEY ARE COMFORTABLE DOING, QUITE FRANKLY.

MAYBE THERE IS EVEN MORE THAN I CAN DO, BUT I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT TO SPEAK OUT .

PARTICULARLY, WHAT I WORRY ABOUT AS WE GET CLOSER TO THE ELECTION, THIS BECOMES MORE OF A CHALLENGE, MORE OF AN ISSUE.

IF SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT IS ANYTHING CLOSE TO WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6, THEN I WOULD REALLY DEEPLY REGRET NOT HAVING DONE MORE TO TRY TO DISCOURAGE THAT KIND OF CONDUCT.

>> SO YOU WILL PROBABLY DO SOME MORE.

>> IF I FIND THAT IT IS NECESSARY.

AGAIN, IT IS NOT ABOUT THIS, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.

I DISLIKE WHEN PEOPLE, COMMENTATORS IN THE MEDIA, AND OTHERS, POLITICAL LEADERS, TALK ABOUT WHAT IS GOOD OR BAD FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OR DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

I THINK THE SIMPLE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS GOOD FOR AMERICA?

>> THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT , IN PAST YEARS, HAS RESISTED FOR A WHILE OPENING AN INVESTIGATION AGAINST DONALD TRUMP.

YET THE INDICTMENTS COME DOWN AFTER HE DECIDES TO RUN FOR OFFICE , AFTER HE IS LEADING IN THE POLLS.

IT SEEMS THERE IS SOME CAUSE FOR PEOPLE TO SUSPECT THIS MAY BE POLITICAL.

HOW DO YOU REFUTE THAT?

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE I WOULD SAY, THERE ARE, EIGHT OR NINE REPUBLICANS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

NONE OF THEM ARE BEING INVESTIGATED, BUT THEY ARE ALL RUNNING FOR THE SAME OFFICE TRUMP IS RUNNING FOR.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS INVESTIGATIONS TAKE TIME.

THESE ARE COMPLICATED.

THE PROSECUTION BY JACK SMITH.

WITH THIS PROSECUTION, WHEN HE OR SHE IS READY TO DO SO AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE PROSECUTORS WERE LIKELY NOT READY TO GO BEFORE DONALD TRUMP AND ANNOUNCED HE WAS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T BE, I WOULD HAVE TO THINK THAT THE PROSECUTORS IN THESE CASES WAS THAT DONALD TRUMP, THAT WE WEREN'T IN THE MIDDLE OF A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

I REALLY DO.

I BELIEVE THAT MERRICK GARLAND BELIEVES THAT.

NONETHELESS, YOU CAN'T CLOSE YOUR EYES AND IGNORE WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE CRIMINAL WRONGDOING.

SO YOU MOVE FORWARD WITH THE PROSECUTION WHEN YOU'RE READY TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> WE HAVE A PROCESS FOR THAT WHICH IS IMPEACHMENT AND THEN A TRIAL BY THE SENATE AND TWICE, THE SENATE DID A TRIAL AND DIDN'T CONVICT PRESIDENT TRUMP.

WHY SHOULD IT NOW BE GOING TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?

>> AGAIN, BECAUSE THE RULES OF EVIDENCE ARE DIFFERENT, BEING CONVICTED OF A CRIME IS DIFFERENT.

THERE IS A DISAGREEMENT ABOUT WHAT IS A HIGH CRIME AND MISDEMEANOR.

WHAT WOULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR IMPEACHMENT.

AND THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS IMPEACHED BUTTON NOT REMOVED FROM OFFICE DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE'S INNOCENT OF CRIMINAL WRONGDOING.

NOT BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

AND SO THE DEPARTMENT IS DOING WHAT IT SHOULD BE DOING, WHICH IS TO INVESTIGATE CRIMINAL WRONGDOING AND TO PROSECUTE CRIMINAL WRONGDOING WHEN THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN COURT.

AND THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS IMPEACHED BUT NOT REMOVED, IN NO WASTE OF THIS SUGGESTS THAT HE WASN'T IMPLICATED IN ANY WRONGDOING.

>> BACK WHEN YOU WERE U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL, THERE WERE ACCUSATIONS ABOUT THE POLITICIZATION OF THE DEPARTMENT.

DO YOU HAVE ANY REGRETS ABOUT HOW YOU HANDLED THINGS THEN IN BEING PART OF THIS PROCESS WHERE PEOPLE LOST A LITTLE BIT OF FAITH, THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WAS ABOVE POLITICS?

THESE POSITIONS, YOU ARE GOING TO BE CRITICIZED BY SOMEONE, EVEN IF YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING.

THAT IS THE WAY IT IS AND YOU ACCEPT THAT.

THE OTHER THING IS IN THESE POSITIONS, YOU HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT ARE SO INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

YOU CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE HOW DIFFICULT THEY ARE.

SO IT IS TRUE.

I WOULD THINK IF YOU ASKED ANY CANDIDATE OFFICIAL, IF YOU ASKED ANY FORMER PRESIDENT, THEY WOULD TELL YOU, YES.

IF I COULD DO IT OVER AGAIN, THERE MAY BE SOME DECISIONS I WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY, OF COURSE.

SO, YES.

I WISH THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME THINGS THAT I WOULD'VE DONE DIFFERENT OR MAY HAVE SAID THINGS IN A DIFFERENT WAY, TO BE MORE REASSURING TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> ANY EXAMPLE YOU WANT TO GIVE?

>> I CAN'T THINK OF AN EXAMPLE OFFHAND, BUT JUST TO REASSURE THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT THE DECISIONS THAT WERE MADE, THAT WERE BEING MADE BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ARE BASED UPON WHAT IS REQUIRED UNDER THE RULE OF LAW.

>> I DON'T KNOW MERRICK GARLAND PERSONALLY.

YOU KNOW, I DID WHEN HE WAS NOMINATED TO GO ON THE SUPREME COURT, I DID RUN AN OP-ED SAYING THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS WRONG FOR THE SENATE REPUBLICANS NOT TO GIVE HIM UP OR DOWN VOTE.

I WROTE THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA DID HIS JOB BY NOMINATING SOMEONE IN THE COURT AND THAT THE SENATE SHOULD DO ITS JOB IN AT LEAST VOTING HIM UP OR DOWN.

BY ALL ACCOUNTS, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, HE IS A MAN OF GREAT INTEGRITY.

HE APPEARS TO NOT LIKE THE LIMELIGHT, SO I THINK HE HAS DONE A GOOD JOB.

I SUSPECT HE IS FRUSTRATED BY NOT BEING ABLE TO GET OUT THERE MORE OFTEN, TALK ABOUT DEFENDING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

YOU WANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT DOING THAT, OF COURSE.

MAYBE THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS THEY DON'T SAY SOMETHING FOR ALL OF THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOB DAY IN AND DAY OUT, TO SAY SOMETHING TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

NOT THAT MERRICK GARLAND NEEDS MY HELP IN ANY WAY TO DO HIS JOB, BUT , AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW HIM THAT WILL, BUT FROM ALL INDICATIONS, HE IS JUST TRYING TO DO THE BEST THAT HE CAN.

>> YOU KNOW, HE APPOINTED A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, JACK SMITH, OF COURSE, ON THE TRUMP CASE.

AND THEN BASED ON A LOT OF CALLS FROM REPUBLICANS, ALSO THAN, THERE IS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, ACCUSING SOMEONE WHO HAD ONCE BEEN APPOINTED BY TRUMP, TO LOOK AT HUNTER BIDEN, THE PRESIDENT'S SON.

NOW THERE IS LOW BACK ON HIM.

I DON'T QUITE GET WHAT THE CRITICISM IS.

NOW HE IS CRITICIZING THE APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL PROSECUTORS.

>> THE ONLY THING I CAN THINK OF IS THAT EVEN THE PLEA DEAL THAT WAS APPARENTLY REACHED , REPUBLICANS THOUGHT IT WAS TOO SWEET TO DEAL FOR HUNTER BIDEN.

THEY BELIEVE HE WILL BE TOO KIND, NOT AGGRESSIVE AS HE RESPECT TO THE PROSECUTION.

THAT IS THE ONLY REASON I CAN THINK OF I REPUBLICANS ARE UPSET.

ALSO IT COULD BE BECAUSE THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, BEFORE THE APPOINTMENT OF THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, I THINK THEY HAD HOPES THAT THEY WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO INTERNAL DOJ DOCUMENTATION BUT NOW WITH THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR AND ONGOING INVESTIGATION, THOSE DOCUMENTS WILL BE CONCEALED UNTIL THE INVESTIGATION OR PROSECUTION IS FINISHED, SO THERE IS A LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

ONCE YOU GET IT, YOU REALIZE, THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANTED.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE MAIN OBJECTIVE HERE IS TO INVESTIGATE HUNTER BIDEN AND TO PROSECUTE THAT HE IS ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL WRONGDOING.

WHAT HAPPENS THERE AND WHAT HAPPENS WITH DONALD TRUMP?

EVERY PROSECUTION IS BASED UPON THE FACTS OF THE CASE AND THERE IS SOME DISCUSSION, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE PROSECUTOR THAT IS LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE AND FORWARD.

EVERY PROSECUTION IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.

>> WE HAVE RULES IN THIS COUNTRY ABOUT WITNESS, TAMPERING, AND WITNESS INTIMIDATION.

TRUMP SEEMS TO BE BUTTING UP AGAINST THOSE, AT LEAST DEALING WITH THE JUDGES AND THE CASE.

HE EVEN SAID, IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I'M COMING AFTER YOU.

EXPLAIN TO ME THE RULES ON WITNESS TAMPERING AND INTIMIDATION AND HOW CLOSE YOU THINK TRUMP IS GETTING TO THAT LINE.

>> IT IS A VIOLATION OF LAW, OF COURSE, TO BE ENGAGED IN WITNESS TAMPERING, WITNESS INTIMIDATION.

WE ALSO HAVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

OBVIOUSLY, THE FIRST AMENDMENT, THE RIGHTS THERE ARE STRONGEST WITH THE CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE HERE.

ON TOP OF THAT, THE FACT THAT THAT IS VERY TYPICAL OF DONALD TRUMP CONDUCT SO MAYBE WE HAVE BECOME IMMUNE TO THE TYPE OF RHETORIC THAT HE SAYS.

I THINK HE NEEDS TO BE CAREFUL.

JANUARY 6th CASE, APPEARS TO BE A JUDGE THAT IS PRETTY STRICT AND IS GOING TO HOLD EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE IN CONNECTION WITH THAT TRIAL.

SO I THINK HE NEEDS TO BE CAREFUL.

I THINK, OBVIOUSLY, SPEAKING TO HIM ABOUT THIS, WHETHER OR NOT HE ABIDES OR LISTENS TO WHAT HIS LAWYERS SAY, I THINK, IS OPEN TO QUESTION.

AGAIN, HE IS RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

THERE IS A TIME TO SAY CERTAIN THINGS, BUT HE NEEDS TO BE CAREFUL WHAT HE SAYS HERE ABOUT POTENTIAL WITNESSES.

>> THE TRIAL INVOLVING THE JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT WE HAVE AN EARLY TRIAL?

THAT IT GET DONE BEFORE THE ELECTION?

>> I THINK IT IS VITAL THAT AMERICAN VOTERS KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE PERSON THEY'RE VOTING FOR, ASSUMING DONALD TRUMP WINS THE NOMINATION, WHETHER OR NOT THIS PERSON HAS ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL WRONGDOING.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE TRIAL TO BE COMPLETED BEFORE THE ELECTION.

IN FACT, IF I AM A DEFENDANT IN THE CASE, I WOULD WANT TO GET IT OVER WITH AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, AS WELL.

I THINK DONALD TRUMP WOULD LIKE TO DELAY IT PAST THE ELECTION BECAUSE HE ASSUMES HE IS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL , GETTING RE- ELECTED TO THE OFFICE, AND THERE IS A LONG-STANDING PRACTICE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PROSECUTE A SITTING PRESIDENT.

HE WOULD BE SUBJECT, AGAIN, TO ANOTHER IMPEACHMENT IN THE HOUSE.

THIS TIME, IT IS POSSIBLE THE SENATE MIGHT REMOVE HIM.

NEVERTHELESS, I THINK IDEALLY, QUITE FRANKLY, WE HAVE A RESOLUTION OF THE TRIAL BEFORE SUPER TUESDAY, BECAUSE , YOU KNOW, VOTING WILL OCCUR WELL BEFORE THE ELECTION, SO THE SOONER, THE BETTER.

I WANT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHETHER OR NOT THERE CANDIDATE, ASSUMING DONALD TRUMP IS THERE CANDIDATE, ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL WRONGDOING.

>> IF PEOPLE HAVE HIM AS A CANDIDATE, DON'T YOU THINK THEY HAVE ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT WHETHER WHAT HE DID WAS RIGHT OR WRONG?

>> IS ONE THING TO SAY THAT NOW .

MAYBE ANOTHER THING WHEN, IN FACT, THEY LEARN OF THE RESULTS OF A CRIMINAL TRIAL, AND HE IS PROSECUTED.

EVIDENCE IS GOING TO COME OUT THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT.

WE ALWAYS ASK , THE PROSECUTORS AND INVESTIGATORS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE FAR MORE INFORMATION THAN YOU AND I, THEN PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA, THEN THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

SO ALL THAT IS GOING TO COME OUT IN THE CHILD.

MAYBE AFTER THAT INFORMATION COMES OUT, WE ARE GOING TO SAY, WELL, HE IS A CRIMINAL.

AND HE HAS BEEN CONVICTED.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, PEOPLE MAY JUST START GETTING TOO TIRED OF ALL THIS AND REALIZE, THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR OUR COUNTRY.

I WOULD LIKE TO THINK WE ARE PAST THAT POINT, BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT YET TIRED, PERHAPS AFTER A LENGTHY CRIMINAL TRIAL, THEY WILL BECOME TIRED AND REALIZE, WE NEED TO MOVE ON.

IT IS BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY TO MOVE ON.

BE TELEVISED?

>> I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST TELEVISED TRIALS BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE ACT DIFFERENTLY IN FRONT OF A CAMERA.

I THINK LAWYERS ACT DIFFERENTLY IN FRONT OF A CAMERA.

BUT HERE, WITH RESPECT TO WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6, THIS IS REALLY AN ATTACK UPON, I THINK THE AMERICAN SYSTEM.

AGAINST AMERICAN VOTERS.

ALL ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK AMERICANS WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO THE RULE OF LAW IN THAT, IF IT IS TELEVISED AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DOESN'T DO A GOOD JOB IN PROSECUTING DONALD TRUMP, AND HE IS CONVICTED, I THINK PEOPLE WILL HAVE SEEN HOW OUR SYSTEM WORKS.

AND THAT HE DID RECEIVE A FAIR TRIAL.

AND SO THERE ARE BENEFITS , AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.

THIS IS UNIQUE CASE IN WHICH I THINK ONE COULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT IT SHOULD BE TELEVISED.

>> JUDGE ALBERTO GONZALES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> FASCINATING CONVERSATIONS, ESPECIALLY THE BIPARTISAN TURN OF EVENTS.

FINALLY TONIGHT, RESPECT.

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AT THE U.S. TENNIS OPEN IN NEW YORK, GROUNDBREAKING CHAMPION BILLIE JEAN KING HAS BEEN HONORED FOR SECURING EQUAL PRIZE MONEY FOR WOMEN AT THAT TOURNAMENT 50 YEARS AGO.

FORMER FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA LED THE TRIBUTES AS PLAY BEGAN.

NOW, WHEN I SPOKE TO BILLIE ON THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE FOUNDING OF THE WOMEN'S TENNIS ASSOCIATION, I ASKED HER ABOUT THE TOLL OF FIGHTING FOR EQUALITIES AND ACTIVISTS WHILE COMPETING AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.

>> I MADE THE DECISION WHEN I WAS 12 YEARS OLD THAT I WOULD FIGHT FOR EQUALITY THE REST OF MY LIFE.

AND I MADE A VERY CONSCIOUS DECISION THAT I WOULDN'T WIN AS MANY TITLES AS A PLAYER IF I WERE TO DO THIS.

>> DID YOU ?

>> I DID.

AND IT WAS SO OBVIOUS.

I MEAN, I WOULD GO SEE A SPONSOR IN NEW YORK IN THE MORNING AND THEN TAKE A TRAIN TO PHILADELPHIA AND PLAY IN THE FINALS IN PHILADELPHIA.

THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO WIN TITLES.

I AM SURE I DIDN'T WIN THAT ONE.

>> WE ARE SO GLAD AND ALSO SO GRATEFUL THAT SHE MADE THE DECISION SHE DID ALL THOSE YEARS AGO, PAVING THE WAY FOR SO MANY WOMEN, SO MANY GENERATIONS OF GIRLS, TO COMPETE ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN ALWAYS CATCH US ONLINE, ON OUR WEBSITE, AND THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM KYIV.

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