♪♪ ♪♪ >>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> AS UKRAINIAN FORCES PUSH THROUGH RUSSIA'S DEFENSES, THEIR DRONES STRIKE AT THE HEART OF MOSCOW, I ASKED RUSSIA'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UK, ANDREI KELIN, WHETHER PUTIN'S SO-CALLED SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION IS GOING TO PLAN.

>> THE LOSSES THAT THEY HAVE SUFFERED ARE TERRIBLE.

>> I ALSO ASK HIM WHY THE LEADER OF THE WAGER MERCENARY GROUP, YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, ISN'T IN PRISON FOR MOUNTING AN ARMED COUP.

HAS THIS FAILED COUP WEAKENED OR STRONGENED PUTIN IN?

>> STRENGTHENED HIM.

>>> TO THE FRONT LINE IN UKRAINE.

HARI SREENIVASAN TALKS WITH PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST TRAPPED IN THE BESIEGED CITY OF MARIUPOL ABOUT DOCUMENTING RUSSIAN ATROCITIES IN HIS NEW MOVIE.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> YOU ARE BEING REFERRED TO AS A NATIONAL TREASURE.

AS A NEW EXHIBITION SHOWCASES SOME OF THE BEST PIECES FROM HIS 40 YEAR OVER YEAR CAREER, WE LOOK AT MY 2019 CONVERSATION WITH THE BRITISH TURNER PRIZE-WINNING ARTIST GRAYSON PERRY.

>> SEDUCTIVE AND DECORATIVE AND I THINK I REALLY WANT THAT, AND YET IT ALSO REPULSES.

♪♪ >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT, TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP, RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT IS MORE THAN 500 DAYS SINCE RUSSIA LAUNCHED ITS FULL-SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

KYIV'S WESTERN ALLIES HAVE BEEN WARNING OF LOOMING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION FOR MONTHS, BUT PUTIN'S UNTHINKABLE DECISION WAS STILL A TOTAL HOCK TO MANY IN UKRAINE AND AROUND THE WORLD.

>> MOMENTS AFTER THAT SPEECH TO THE NATION, THE FIRST EXPLOSIONS WERE HEARD ACROSS UKRAINE.

BUT FAR BE IT FROM THE QUICK VICTORY PUTIN WAS HOPING FOR.

TODAY, MORE THAN A YEAR LATER, RUSSIA IS ON THE DEFENSIVE AS UKRAINE'S COUNTEROFFENSIVE GAINS MOMENTUM.

UKRAINIAN FORCES ARE PROBING ITS DEFENSES.

ADD TO THAT THE ASTONISHING SIGHT OF SKYSCRAPERS IN DOWNTOWN MOUNT WASHINGTON ATTACKED BY UKRAINIAN DRONES ON PUTIN'S DOORSTEP.

IT IS RARE TO GET RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO SPEAK WITH THE PRESS, BUT MOSCOW'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED KINGDOM, ANDREI KELIN, WHO HAS HAD PROMINENT DIPLOMATIC ROLES ALL OVER THE WORLD SINCE THE 1970s, CAME INTO OUR LONDON STUDIOS TO EXPLAIN THE LATEST KREMLIN THOUGHTS ABOUT THE WAR, ABOUT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INDICTMENT, ABOUT WHY THE WAGNER GROUP'S LEADER, YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, REMAINS AT LARGE DESPITE HIS ARMED MUTINY AGAINST PUTIN, AND ABOUT THE CHANCES OF A NEGOTIATED END TO THE UKRAINE WAR.

UNSURPRISINGLY, THERE ARE 180 DEGREES OF SEPARATION BETWEEN MOSCOW'S NARRATIVE AND THAT OF UKRAINE AND ITS ALLIES.

AMBASSADOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>> I NEED TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE IT IS THE NEWS OF THE DAY, THE NEWS OF THE WORLD, AND THAT IS THE LATEST INDICTMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, SPECIFICALLY ON ALLEGATIONS OF CONSPIRING TO OVERTURN A LEGITIMATE AMERICAN ELECTION.

NOW, BECAUSE OF RUSSIA'S INTEREST IN U.S.

ELECTIONS, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOUR REACTION IS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> THAT WILL BE VERY SIMPLE.

I THINK IT IS THAT WE ARE GOING TO WORK WITH THE PRESIDENT THAT WILL BE ELECTED IN THE UNITED STATES.

FOR US, WE DO NOT COMMAND EITHER ON THIS SIDE OR THAT SIDE.

>> IS IT STRANGE AS A RUSSIAN DIPLOMAT TO SEE SOMEBODY INDICTED RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND LIKELY TO GET THE NOMINATION OF HIS PARTY?

>> OF COURSE, WE DO FOLLOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES.

FOR US IT IS AN INTEREST.

I HOPE THAT IT WILL NOT TURN INTO THIS SUCH A TURMOIL THAT WAS AT LAST ELECTIONS AND BEFORE THAT ELECTIONS IN ALL OF THAT.

IT SHOULD REALLY -- ELECTIONS, AND SOMEONE SHOULD BE ELECTED AND GUIDE THE COUNTRY IN THE RIGHT WAY.

>> IT IS THOUGHT BY THE SORT OF DOING ANY ZENDT THAT THE KREMLIN, PUTIN, WHO HAD A DECENT RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANOTHER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

CLEARLY, HE HAS HIS DIFFERENCES WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.

YOU BOTH ARE, OBVIOUSLY, ON THE DIFFERENT SIDE OF THE UKRAINE ISSUE.

YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN WOULD HAVE INVADED UKRAINE OR HOWEVER YOU LIKE TO CALL IT IF TRUMP HAD BEEN PRESIDENT?

>> I WILL SAY THAT MY PRESIDENT HAS NOT ONCE SAID THAT HE WILL NEVER PRONOUNCE THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES.

OTHERWISE, IT BE TOLD HE IS TRYING TO INFLUENCE IT.

>> WHICH, BASICALLY, THE LAST INDICTMENT, OR SOME OF THE INVESTIGATIONS INTO PRESIDENT TRUMP, SUGGESTED THAT IN 2016 THE RUSSIANS DID INFLUENCE THE ELECTION.

CAN I ASK YOU -- >> WE DID NOT.

>> I KNOW THAT'S WHAT YOU SAY.

THE OFFENSIVE, COUNTEROFFENSIVE APPEARS TO BE GAINING MOMENTUM.

I KNOW THE KREMLIN HAS SPOKEN ON IT.

I KNOW PUTIN HAS SAID THAT IT'S A HIGHLY TELEGRAPHED OPERATION THAT HAS ACHIEVED NOTHING, BUT WE CAN SEE, AND YOU ARE SEEING NOW, MANY REPORTS OF SOFTENING UP LINES, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST FEW DAYS A STEPPED UP UKRAINIAN DRONE STRIKES INTO RUSSIA, INCLUDING INTO MOSCOW ON CERTAIN BUSINESSES AND THE LIKE.

IS THIS WAR GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN FOR THE KREMLIN?

>> FIRST, YOU HAVE MENTIONED THE ISSUE OF A COUNTEROFFENSIVE THAT HAS STARTED FROM UKRAINIAN SIDE.

I SEE REPORTS BY BRITISH MINISTER OF DEFENSE, WHICH STILL CONTINUE TO SAY THEY ARE MOVING.

>> THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

COUPLE OF THINGS THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN BY UKRAINIAN FORCES JUST TWO WEEKS AGO BEGINNING OF THIS MONTH HAS BEEN TAKEN BY THE RUSSIAN FORCES.

LOSSES THAT HAS BEEN SUFFERING UKRAINE ARE TERRIBLE.

IT IS 21,000 THIS MONTH AND 26,000 IN JUNE.

NOW, UKRAINIANS ARE TRYING TO ATTACK OUR ALLIANCE, HUMAN POWER.

THEY ARE -- TANKS, INCLUDING BRITISH TANKS.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN TOO, BY THE WAY, ON THE FIELD.

SO THIS IS AWFUL WHAT IS HAPPENING OVER THERE.

AND SO THEY ACHIEVED NOTHING IN THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE, AND IN CONTRARY, RUSSIAN FORCES ARE NOW ADVANCING IN THE NORTH OF THE REGION.

SO THAT IS EFFECTIVE.

SO SOONER OR LATER, THE GOVERNMENT HERE ALSO IN THE UNITED KINGDOM SHOULD RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH.

SO THIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS NOT A SUCCESS.

COMING BACK TO YOUR ISSUE OF SENDING DRONES TO THE RUSSIAN CIVIL BUILDINGS IN MOSCOW, THIS IS A TERRITORY -- A TERRORIST ATTACK.

THEY DELIVERY, TARGETING CIVILIAN BUILDINGS.

NOT MUCH OF A DAMAGE, NOT MUCH OF A FEAR, BUT IT GOES IN A DEFINITION OF TERRORISM.

>> YOU SAY THAT, BUT, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEN EVERYBODY -- THEN YOU MUST ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE UKRAINIANS AND THE REST OF THE WORLD CALL MOSCOW'S DRONE AND MISSILE ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN LOCATIONS INSIDE KYIV AND JUST ABOUT A CHURCH IN ODESSA, MR.

AMBASSADOR, ARE TERRORIST ATTACKS THEN FROM RUSSIA.

>> THIS IS EASY.

WE DO NOT TARGET DELIBERATELY, AS I HAVE SAID, CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT?

>> LET ME FINISH, OKAY?

DAMAGE CAUSED IN ODESA RECENTLY HAS BEEN DONE MAINLY BY THE DEFENSE MISSILE THAT HAS BEEN -- THAT HAS BEEN -- >> YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING THE UKRAINIANS ARE SHOOTING THEMSELVES?

>> NO, NO, NO.

IT IS JUST A FACT OF LIFE.

THEY ARE PUTTING INSTALLATIONS INSIDE CITIES, WHICH IS CONTRARY TO HUMANITARIAN LAW.

WHEN THEY ARE SHOOTING, THERE IS WAR -- THE -- LAST TIME THAT WAS A FULL MISSILE THAT STARTED.

SO SOMETIMES THERE IS A SLARL DAMAGE.

BUT AS WE HAVE ESTABLISHED IN ODESA, ALL OUR POINTS THAT WILL ARE BEYOND ODESA, NOT FAR, BUT INSIDE FOR SOMETIMES.

BUT ODESA.

SO IT WAS JUST OCCASIONAL.

>> SO IS IT THEN STILL THE RUSSIAN POSITION, DESPITE ALL OF US, MYSELF, MY COLLEAGUES, THE U.N., YOU KNOW, WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE U.N., BUT INDEPENDENTS -- >> THE U.N. IS -- >> RIGHT, OTHERS.

HAVE CONSISTENTLY ACCUSED RUSSIA OF TARGETING BOTH MILITARY AND CIVILIAN TARGETS.

I MEAN, THE RESTAURANT, YOU KNOW, THE TRAIN STATION, ALL OF THESE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, ARE YOU STILL TRYING TO SAY NONE OF THAT IS DELIBERATE AFTER -- >> NOT DELIBERATELY.

THINGS HAPPEN.

THIS IS, OF COURSE, WAR.

SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION.

IT IS WAR.

THINGS HAPPEN.

WEAPONS IS FLYING BACK AND FORTH.

SO THAT, OF COURSE, IT MAY HAPPEN.

BUT IN GENERAL, THERE IS NO INTENTION TO DO ANY HARM TO CIVILIANS.

>> THE U.N. SAYS AT LEAST 9,000 CIVILIANS HAVE DIED SINCE YOUR FULL-SCALE INVASION STARTED, 500 ARE CHILDREN.

JUST IS THIS LEVEL OF WHAT YOU CALL ENEMY DEATHS, IS IT ACCEPTABLE?

THESE ARE CIVILIANS.

>> WE DO NOT CALL ENEMY UKRAINIAN POPULATION AT ALL.

WE ARE AGAINST -- >> WHY HAVE YOU INVADED THE COUNTRY?

>> WE HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS -- >> I AM TALKING ABOUT CIVILIAN DEATHS.

IS THAT LEVEL OF CIVILIAN DEATHS AND DESTRUCTION ACCEPTABLE TO RUSSIA?

>> CAN I -- CAN I CONTINUE TO SAY SOMETHING?

>> I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GONNA SAY.

YOU WILL CALL THEM THE CRIMINAL NEO-NAZI FASCIST UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT.

>> THE GOVERNMENT AND -- THERE ARE PEOPLE, OF COURSE, THAT ARE SUPPORTING.

IT WAS A BIG MISTAKE TO COMBAT, TO TRY TO COMBAT RUSSIAN PEOPLE THAT ARE LIVING IN UKRAINE AND TO COMBAT RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

NOW UKRAINE IS PAYING FOR THIS POLITICAL MISSTEP.

>> OKAY.

YOU HAVE GIVEN ME A GREAT OPENING.

YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, A FORMER ALLY, MAYBE STILL AN ALLY OF PRESIDENT PUTIN, WE'LL GO THERE IN A SECOND, IN PART OF HIS CHALLENGE TO THE PRESIDENT AND TO THE RUSSIAN MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT BASICALLY SAID YOU ALL MUST KNOW THAT ZELENSKYY WAS ELECTED IN ORDER TO TRY TO IMPROVE RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA, TO TRY TO CHANG ALL THE DYNAMIC GOING ON IN EASTERN UKRAINE, NOT TO GO TO WAR WITH RUSSIA OR TO CHALLENGE RUSSIA IN THAT REGARD.

HE SAID THAT RUSSIA'S QUOTE, UNQUOTE -- NO, I THINK HE CALLED IT A WAR.

HE DIDN'T CALL IT SPECIAL MILITARYTATION OPERATION.

HAS BEEN COMPLETELY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

IF UKRAINE HAD THREE TANKS BEFORE THE WAR, NOW IT HAS X NUMBER OF TRAINGS.

IT UKRAINE HAD A MILITARY WITH A FEW THOUSAND PREPARED SOLDIERS, NOW THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS PREPARED.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT WAS A BIG MISTAKE BY RUSSIA.

DO YOU THINK YOU ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT ANY OF THAT?

THIS IS FROM AN ALLY OF THE PRESIDENT'S.

>> GOT TO SAY I WOULDN'T SAY THAT HE DOES NOT BELONG TO THOSE WHO ARE PLANNING SOMETHING OR DOING SOMETHING.

HE IS A BUSINESSMAN, CERTAINLY.

HE IS IN A WAY HE IS ADVENTUROUS, OF COURSE.

>> PRIGOZHIN?

>> PRIGOZHIN, DEFINITELY.

HE IS -- BECAUSE HE IS FAR FROM THAT.

HE WAS INVOLVED INTO A CERTAIN BUSINESS PROJECT.

>> I KNOW, BUT HIS TROOPS DID -- ANY SUCCESSES ON THE BATTLEFIELD, HIS TROOPS DID THEM.

>> HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE THINKS HE DOES WHEN HE TRIED TO ARRANGE THIS MUTINY.

I WOULD SAY THAT HE HAS GOT QUALIFICATION.

IT WAS A HIGH TREASON, THE PRESIDENT HAS QUALIFIED IT WHEN IT HAS STARTED, THEN IT HAS -- IT WAS ALL OVER.

NOW HE IS TRAVELING SOMEPLACE.

SO WE -- WE DO RECOGNIZE SOME HERO DEEDS BY WAGNER GROUP AND WHEN THEY HAVE SPECIFICALLY STORMED BAKHMUT AND ALL THAT.

BUT THERE ARE ORGANIZERS AND THERE ARE SOLDIERS.

SO WE MAKE A DEFINITION.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS THAT PEOPLE LIKE THE INTELLECTUAL, OTHERS, NAVALNY, ARE IN JAIL FOR VERBALLY PROTESTING AND DISAGREEING WITH THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, BUT YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, WHO TRIED TO COMMIT A COUP AGAINST THE KREMLIN, MAYBE EVEN AGAINST THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, AN ARMED COUP, IS STILL WANDERING AROUND FREE IN RUSSIA.

HE WAS PHOTOGRAPHED MEETING WITH THE AFRICAN LEADERS DURING THIS WEEK'S SUMMIT IN ST. PETERSBURG.

WHY IS HE NOT IN JAIL FOR TREASON?

>> THE INVESTIGATION IS GOING ON.

BUT, IN FACT, WHAT HAS HAPPENED WHEN THESE TROOPS HAS GONE, NO ONE HAS BEEN KILLED AT ALL.

NO ONE HAS -- THAT -- THERE WAS NO DODGE AT ALL.

AND IT WAS JUST IN MY UNDERSTANDING, IT WAS JUST ONE OF THE -- THAT HE IS TO OUTSTANDING.

>> BUT YOU KNOW RUSSIAN SOLDIERS DIED IN THE -- >> I NEVER RECALL THIS INFORMATION.

NO, NO.

>> IT WAS REPORTED THAT RUSSIAN SOLDIERS DIED, THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN SAID IT WAS AN ACT OF TREASON.

>> EXACTLY, YES.

>> BUT WHY IS HE STILL -- >> BUT -- >> GLAD-HANDING WITH PEOPLE, LIKE INVITED AFRICAN PRESIDENTS WHERE PUTIN IS, IN ST. PETERSBURG?

WHY IS HE NOT -- >> I SAW THIS PHOTOGRAPH.

IT DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING.

SO PERHAPS THEY HAVE BUSINESS RELATIONS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I CAN ONLY -- IT WAS -- I HAVE NO EXPLANATION TO THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK IT WAS A REAL COUP AGAINST PUTIN?

>> NO.

>> WHAT WAS IT?

>> THERE WAS NO ATTEMPT TO GET PUTIN.

THERE WAS AN IDEA THAT PRIGOZHIN'S PEOPLE AND WAGNER ESPECIALLY ORGANIZERS, THEY HAVE SOMETHING SPECIAL.

THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GO UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE, GETTING AMMUNITION SUPPLIES AND ALL OF THAT.

THEY DIDN'T BECAUSE THE PROFIT THAT BEFORE THAT WHEN THEY WERE INDEPENDENT WAS MUCH HIGHER THAN THE ARRANGEMENT THAT WAS -- THAT WAS PROPOSED TO THEM TO DO.

>> JUST SO YOU KNOW, THE REPORTS ARE THAT AT LEAST 15 RUSSIAN SERVICEMEN DIED, MOST AIR FORCE PILOTS.

>> I REMEMBER.

HELICOPTER -- >> YEAH, YEAH.

SO THE GUYS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF RUSSIAN MILITARY -- >> WAS ASKED THIS QUESTION, WHY THE HELICOPTER WAS DOWN, AND HE SAID WE HAVE GOT A CRAZY AIR DEFENSE COMMANDER WHO HAS DONE IT WITHOUT COMMAND.

THAT WAS BY PRIGOZHIN.

>> CAN I ASK YOU THIS?

HAS THIS FAILED COUP WEAKENED OR STRENGTHENED PUTIN?

IN NO WAY.

IT HAS STRING END HIM.

POLLS ARE SHOWING THAT I GUESS 77% HAVE TRUST IN PUTIN OVER POPULATION.

AND 73% OF THE POPULATION SUPPORT HIM.

>> AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS BEEN INDICTED, YOU KNOW, BY THE ICC.

SO HAS HIS MAIN, YOU KNOW, CHILDREN'S RIGHTS EXPERT OR COMMISSIONER.

PRESIDENT PUTIN DECIDED NOT TO GO TO SOUTH AFRICA FOR THE NEXT BRICS SUMMIT, EVEN THOUGH THOSE ARE VERY CLOSE ALLIES.

IS HE AFRAID OF BEING ARRESTED?

>> FIRST ABOUT THIS INDICTMENT AND YOU SHOULD PUT IT IN THERE, BECAUSE THERE IS A GOOD STATISTIC ON THAT, DELIVERED TO SECURITY COUNCIL.

ALSO CHILDREN HAS GONE FROM UKRAINE TO RUSSIA WITH THE PARENTS.

>> 700,000, SAYS RUSSIA, UKRAINIAN CHILDREN HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO RUSSIA SINCE THE START OF THE WAR.

>> 700 -- WELL -- >> 700,000.

>> I HAVE NO FIGURE OF THAT.

200,000 OF CHILDREN HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM THE HOUSES THAT WERE CLOSE TO THE FRONT LINE AND INITIALLY ARE IN TO RUSSIA.

2,000 OF THESE HAS RETURNED BECAUSE OF THE LINE OF -- HAS GONE TO UKRAINE.

BUT 400, WE COULD NOT PLACE THAT THE CARE HOUSES BECAUSE THEY WERE TOO CLOSE TO THE FRONT LINE AND THEY ARE CAMPING IN SOME PLACES IN CRIMEA MAINLY.

THAT'S THE CASE.

>> FINALLY, YOU SAY THESE KIDS ARE ON A CAMPING EXPEDITION IN CRIMEA.

FINALLY, AS YOU KNOW, CRIMEA -- LET'S NOT GO THERE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE AN END, AND HOW DO YOU SEE AN END TO THE WAR?

WE HAVE SAUDI ARABIA TALKING ABOUT A POTENTIAL, YOU KNOW, HOSTING A PEACE -- TO WHICH RUSSIA IS NOT INVITED.

CHINA IS.

>> VERY -- >> WHAT?

AND YOU HAVE SOME ATTEMPTS BY THE AFRICAN UNION.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS HIS TEN-POINT PEACE PLAN.

DO YOU SEE RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK ANY OPENING FOR ANY DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE SIDES OR ANY MEDIATED DIALOGUE TO END THIS WAR?

>> I'LL TELL YOU, WE -- FOR A NEGOTIATED SOLUTION.

WE HAVE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE APRIL LAST YEAR WE WERE CLOSE TO BEGINNING OF THE WAR.

WE WERE VERY CLOSE TO AN AGREEMENT AND IT WAS INITIALED.

DETAIL STIPULATION HOW MANY TANKS, HOW MANY -- HOWEVER, UKRAINIANS -- UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT AND ITS PRESIDENT HAS ASKED US TO WITHDRAW FROM THE REGION OF KYIV.

WE HAVE DONE IT AS A SIGN OF GOODWILL, AND RIGHT -- >> AMBASSADOR, YOU WERE THROWN OUT OF KYIV, YOUR FORCES WERE.

>> NO.

>> SERIOUSLY?

>> NEVER.

NEVER AT ALL.

IT WAS NOT -- >> WE WERE THERE, WE WATCHED.

>> LOOK AT WHAT HAS BEEN SAID DURING THIS TIME BY OUR OFFICIALS, BY THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE.

AND PUTIN HAS CONFIRMED IT IN HIS RECENT STATEMENTS.

IT WAS A SIGN OF GOODWILL.

WE WITHDRAW OUT OF KYIV.

AND KYIV REGION.

NOT FROM KYIV.

FROM KYIV REGION.

AFTER AFTER THAT UKRAINIANS SAID NO DEAL.

WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT.

>> BECAUSE OF WHAT WAS REVEALED.

BUCHA -- >> AND -- >> THOSE WERE TERRIBLE WAR CRIMES COMMITTED.

>> WHATEVER -- >> IT'S NOT WHATEVER.

>> WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE ARE NOT GOING TO REPEAT THIS EXPERIENCE.

>> SO THE ANSWER IS NO?

>> IF PRECONDITIONS WE WILL BE THERE, PRECONDITIONS WILL BE THERE IF DEZBLIERN UKRAINIAN SIDE WILL BE FOR NEGOTIATIONS BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT THE -- HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY ZELENSKYY, WHAT IT IS SAYING, SAYING THAT OUR -- WE HAVE TO -- THAT IS INCLUDED CRIMEA.

WE HAVE TO PAY ENORMOUS REPARATIONS AND WE HAVE TO SUBMIT PRESIDENT PUTIN TO KIND OF INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL.

YOU THINK WE CAN ACCEPT THIS?

NEVER, OF COURSE.

>> ON THAT NOTE, AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU FOR COMING N. >> OKAY.

GOOD.

>>> NOW, ONCE RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE MARIUPOL IN THE SOUTH WAS BESIEGED.

A TEAM FROM THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WAS THE ONLY INTERNATIONAL REPORTERS TO REMAIN IN THE CITY.

WHAT THEY CAPTURED MADE HEADLINES AROUND THE WORLD, EXPOSING THE ATROCITIES BEING COMMITTED BY RUSSIAN FORCES THERE.

MSTYSLAV CHERNOV WAS THE PHOTOGRAPHER ON THAT TEAM AND HE HAS DOCUMENTED THE HARROWING EXPERIENCE IN A NEW FILM "20 DAYS IN MARIUPOL."

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> RUSSIANS HAVE ENTERED THE CITY.

THE WAR HAS BEGUN AND WE HAVE TO TELL ITS STORY.

>> THAT WAS MORE THAN A YEAR AGO AND THE PAIN AND HORROR OF THIS UKRAINIAN STORY IS NOWHERE NEAR OVER.

MR. MSTYSLAV CHERNOV IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE SIEGE OF MARIUPOL AND ITS AFTERMATH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR FILM, "20 DAYS IN MARIUPOL," DOCUMENTS WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE RUSSIANS INVADE THE.

FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT KNOW, WHERE IS MARIUPOL SO SIGNIFICANT?

>> STARTING FROM 2014, RUSSIA HAVE TRIED TO OCCUPY MARIUPOL IN THE VERY BEGINNING OF RUSSIA'S INVASION TO UKRAINE.

IT IS A PORT CITY.

A HUGE PORT CITY WITH HUGE INDUSTRIAL -- IT WAS, UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE IT NOW IS DESTROYED, A HUGE INDUSTRIAL INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND TACTICALLY, IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT IS DIRECTLY ON THE WAY FROM RUSSIA TO OCCUPIED CRIMEA.

SO, ON THE POINT OF LOGISTICS, FROM A SYMBOLIC POINT OF VIEW, THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CITIES IN UKRAINE FOR RUSSIA TO TRY TO OCCUPY.

>> YOU WERE THERE IN THE VERY BEGINNING.

WE ARE TALKING BACK IN FEBRUARY OF 2022.

AND YOU CAPTURED A LOT OF THE ANXIETY OF THE PEOPLE THERE.

DESCRIBE WHAT THEY WERE GOING THROUGH, KNOWING THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CITY THAT RUSSIA WILL WANT AND THEY ARE COMING.

>> I THINK IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS A LOT OF HOPE AND AS JOURNALISTS, TOO, THERE WAS A LOT OF HOPE THAT EVEN IF THERE WILL BE A SIEGE, IT WILL BE NOT SO DESTRUCTIVE.

SO IT CAUGHT US ALL BY SURPRISE THAT RUSSIANS DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO BE CAREFUL.

IT WAS JUST INDISCRIMINATE BARRAGE OF ALL KINDS OF BOMBS AND WEAPONS.

AS SOON AS THE RUSSIAN FORCES UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY CAN'T TAKE MARIUPOL EASILY, THAT UKRAINIAN FORCES WILL BE FIGHTING FOR EVERY SINGLE INCH OF THEIR LAND, RUSSIA JUST STARTED TO DESTROY EVERY BUILDING IT THAT WAS ON THE WAY.

SO AS SOON AS THE SIEGE WENT TO FULL MODE, THE POWER LINES WERE CUT OFF.

THERE WAS NO WATER.

FOOD -- NO FOOD SUPPLIES.

THEREFORE, LOOTING HAS STARTED.

AND IT WAS JUST PURE CHAOS.

IT WAS VERY HARD TO OPERATE FOR THE CITY WORKERS.

IMAGINE A CITY WHICH IS CONSTANTLY GETTING BOMBARDED BUT DOESN'T HAVE A PHONE LINE TO CALL THE AMBULANCE.

THEREFORE, IF YOU ARE INJURED, YOU DIE.

IT WAS HORRIBLE.

AND THE WORST THING, THERE WAS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN PEOPLE.

SO THE SOCIETY JUST COLLAPSED.

THAT WAS DELIBERATE TACTICS.

AND WE, AS JOURNALISTS, WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS.

>> YOU MADE AN ACTIVE DECISION IN MAKING, CRAFTING THE FILM, TO CENTER IT AROUND CIVILIANS, AND THERE ARE SO MANY GRIPPING SCENES IN THERE.

THERE WAS A SCENE WHERE YOU START FOLLOWING A WOMAN FROM A MATERNITY HOSPITAL.

>> WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> WE WERE HIDING FROM THIS AIRPLANE THAT WAS BOMBING THE AREA IN A BILLING WHICH WAS NEARBY.

AND WE SAW THAT THE HOSPITAL WAS BOMBED.

BOMBED.

AND LATER AFTER THE BOMBING HAPPENED, WE WENT THE BUILDING AND SAW THE FIRE AND THE HOSPITAL.

SO WE RAN THERE AS FAST AS WE COULD BECAUSE WE KNEW IT'S A HOSPITAL.

AND THE SCENE THAT WE ARRIVED THERE WAS SHOCKING.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE WERE ALREADY EVACUATED, BUT THERE WERE STILL A LOT OF PREGNANT WOMEN AND RESCUE WORKERS AND EVERYTHING WAS DESTROYED.

AND THEN I SAW RESCUE WORKERS CARRYING A WOMAN, HER NAME IS IRINA, SHE WAS 32 YEARS OLD, SHE WAS PREGNANT, AND THEY WERE CARRYING HER AND SHE HAD THIS TERRIBLE WOUND ON HER PELVIS.

THERE WAS A SILENCE, DEAFENING SILENCE, LIKE A RING IN MY EARS LIERKS AFTER THE BOMB EXPLODES, RIGHT?

IN THE FILM WE REALLY TRIED TO TRANSFER THE AUDIENCE THERE IN THAT MOMENT.

THIS JUST RUN TOWARDS THE AMBULANCE, IT WAS SO -- IT SEEMED SO ENDLESS, SO LONG, ALTHOUGH THEY HAD TO RUN ACROSS JUST A YARD FOR HOSPITAL.

AND THEN THEY JUST -- THEY MOVED HER IN THE AMBULANCE AND LEFT.

THEN THE DAY AFTER WE WERE SEARCHING FOR HER, BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW WHICH HOSPITAL THEY CARRIED HER.

WE STILL HOPE SHE WOULD SURVIVE P BUT SHE DIDN'T.

>> THE VIDEO THAT YOU TOOK FROM THAT MATERNITY HOSPITAL, VASQUEZ AND LEADERS IN THE EU, HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT AND USED THAT FOOTAGE AS POSSIBLY EVIDENCE OF WAR CRIMES.

I WONDER, HAVE WON CONTACTED BY ANY AUTHORITIES TO IMPORT THAT AS EVIDENCE IN ANY KIND OF AN INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL?

>> SO THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH WORK ON TRIALS.

THE FIRST ONE IS THAT TO START -- TO EVEN START ONE, YOU NEED TO OCCUPY THE CITY.

WHEN BUCHA WAS OCCUPIED WE SAW THE HORRORS THERE, BUT THE TRIALS WERE POSSIBLE EXACTLY BECAUSE THERE WERE BUDDIES.

THERE WAS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF THESE CRIMES.

WITH MARIUPOL, WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT THIS SCALE OF THE WAR CRIMES IS MAYBE TEN TIMES BIGGER.

CAN'T IMAGINE HOW MUCH BIGGER THE SCALE OF THE WAR CRIMES IN MARIUPOL IS.

HOWEVER, TO EVEN START SPEAKING ABOUT THIS, WE NEED TO SEE CITY BEING OCCUPIED.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THE LONGER IT STAYS UNDER OCCUPATION, MORE OF THE -- MORE OF THE EVIDENCE ARE BEING DESTROYED.

SO THIS BUILDINGS THAT STILL HAVE THE REMAINS OF PEOPLE WHO DIED IN THE SHELLINGINGS, THEY JUST ARE BEING KNOCKED DOWN AND TURNED INTO DUST, PAVED ROADS, AND BODIES ARE THROWN INTO MASS GRAVES WITH JUST NUMBERS, BASICALLY NUMBERS BEING RAISED AFTER A WHILE.

THERE IS LIKE A WOODEN PLAQUES.

ALL THIS IS MAKING INVESTIGATIONS, WAR CRIMES VERY DIFFICULT.

HOWEVER, FORTUNATELY, WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET MOST OF THE FOOTAGE OUT, THE ORANGE FILES, RIGHT.

SO FILES WITH THE INFORMATION IN THEM AND THAT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO IDENTIFY.

BUT, YEAH.

A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT WAS -- EVIDENCE THAT THERE WERE FILMED BY RESIDENTS, THE CHECKPOINTS WHEN PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO LEAVE AND THEIR PHONES GOT JUST ERASED AND IT'S GONE.

>> YOU GREW UP IN KHARKIV.

WHAT'S IT BEEN LIKE TO WATCH IMAGES, TO GO TO PLACES THAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT ARE NOW BOMBED OUT, TORN APART?

>> WHEN I CAME BACK TO KHARKIV AFTER MARIUPOL, IT WAS HEAVILY BOMBARDED.

I WAS JUST GOING AND TRYING TO FILM, AGAIN THE VICTIMS OF THIS BOMBARDMENTS.

ONE DAY I GOT A CALL FROM THE RESCUE WORKERS WITH JUST AN ADDRESS.

SO I DROVE THERE VERY QUICKLY, NOT THINKING WHAT EXACTLY THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS THAT ADDRESS.

THEN I ARRIVED.

I REALIZED THAT THAT'S A BUILDING WHERE I LIVED FOR FIVE YEARS WHEN I WAS A STUDENT.

THERE WERE THREE DEAD PEOPLE JUST IN FRONT OF A HOUSE WHERE I USED TO, YOU KNOW, SPEND SO MUCH TIME.

AND IT WAS LIKE COMING -- IT WAS LIKE COMING -- IT WAS LIKE A NIGHTMARE YOU CANNOT WAKE UP FROM.

>> HOW DO YOU FUNCTION, I GUESS, EMOTIONALLY, PHYSICALLY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY WHEN YOU ARE SEEING THESE THINGS THAT ARE KIND OF UNSPEAKABLE?

I MEAN, YOU WROTE FOR THE A.P.

THAT I HAD SEEN SO MUCH DEATH THAT I WAS FILMING ALMOST WITHOUT TAKING IT IN.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WELL, WHEN YOU ARE AT THE SCENE, WHEN THERE IS A LOT OF ADRENALINE PUMPING UP, WHEN THERE IS THE THOUGHT THAT YOU ALSO NEED TO SURVIVE, AND YOU NEED TO DO EVERYTHING QUICKLY, AND THE ONLY FEAR YOU HAVE TO BE SURE THAT YOU NEED TO CAPTURE EVERY MOMENT OF WHAT IS UNFOLDING IN FRONT OF YOU.

SO YOU DON'T ANALYZE EMOTIONALLY WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WHEN IT HITS HARDER IS WHEN YOU ARE ACTUALLY EDITING AND FOR ALMOST SIX MONTHS, NO, ACTUALLY, ALMOST A YEAR WE EDITED THE FILM.

SO EVERY SINGLE SPAES TEAR, EVERY DROP OF BLOOD I REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY.

I CAN'T ESCAPE FROM THAT.

AND IT'S JUST SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH.

AND I GUESS ALL OF THE UKRAINIANS AND ALL INTERNATIONALS WHO WORK NOW IN UKRAINE, THEY ALL GO THROUGH A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE.

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT WHATEVER THE AUDIENCE SEES ON THE SCREEN IN THE FILM IS NOT SOMETHING EXCLUSIVE TO WHAT WE LIVED THROUGH.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT ALL JOURNALISTS NOW ARE GOING THROUGH AND CIVILIANS ARE GOING THROUGH IN UKRAINE.

>> THERE WERE ABOUT 100,000 PEOPLE, AS YOU SAID, THAT WERE ABLE TO GET OUT, BUT THERE WERE SO MANY STILL LEFT IN MARIUPOL, AND THEY WERE STRUGGLING.

THEY WERE DESPERATE.

YOU SHOWED SIGNS OF LOOTING.

YOU SHOWED THEM WONDERING WHO WAS DOING THE BOMBING.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO SHOW THAT?

>> THE STORY WOULD BE INCOMPLETE WITHOUT THESE REACTIONS BECAUSE THESE REACTIONS ARE REACTIONS TO THE INFORMATION.

WHAT IS EXTRAORDINARY, SAD ABOUT THIS SIEGE IN MARIUPOL, IT WAS NOT ONLY PHYSICAL, MILITARY SIEGE OF THE CITY, IT WAS AN INFORMATION SIEGE.

AND INFORMATION SIEGE THAT LED TO THIS CONSEQUENCES.

NOW WE KIND OF SEE THIS -- IT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR A FUTURE.

A TERRIBLE EXAMPLE FOR A FUTURE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE RESEARCHED OF HOW THIS SOCIETY COLLAPSES AND HOW PEOPLE GET CONFUSED AND LOST AND SUSCEPTIBLE TO PROPAGANDA WHEN THEIR LIFE IS IN DANGER AND WHEN THEY HAVE ZERO ACCESS TO INFORMATION.

AND THAT'S ALSO A NOTE ON IMPORTANCE OF JOURNALISM IN GENERAL.

FOR OUR SOCIETY.

>> THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I SAW IT.

THE HOSPITAL IS SURROUNDED.

DOZENS OF DOCTORS, HUNDREDS OF PATIENTS, AND US.

>> I HAVE NO ILLUSIONS ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO US IF WE ARE OUT.

>> YOUR TEAM WAS LIKELY THE LAST REPORTING TEAM LEFT IN THERE.

YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY SURROUNDED.

YOU ARE INSIDE A HOSPITAL AND THERE IS RUSSIAN TANKS WITH LARGE Zs ON THEM.

EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> THE DAY AFTER THE BOMBING OF MARIUPOL, MATERNITY HOSPITAL, WE WERE LOOKING FOR SURVIVORS AND WE WERE HOPING THAT THEY WERE IN THERE, IRINA, WHO WE SAW IN THIS AREA SURVIVED.

WE WENT BACK TO HOSPITAL NUMBER TWO, WHICH IS A HOSPITAL WHERE WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME, AND WE FOUND -- WE FOUND OUT THAT SHE DIED AND WE FOUND OTHER SURVIVORS, ONE OF THEM GAVE BIRTH.

THAT WAS LIKE A RAY OF LIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF DESTRUCTION AND HORRORS.

BUT AS SOON AS WE ARE TRYING TO LEAVE, WE REALIZE THAT THE FRONT LINE IS MOVED AND THE BATTLE IS HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF -- OUTSIDE OF A HOSPITAL.

SNIPERS SHOT A NURSE AND WE CANNOT GET TO THEIR CAR AND THE RUSSIAN TANKS STARTED ROLLING AROUND THE HOSPITAL AND SHOOTING AT A RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS.

SO KIND OF HAD TO, A HARD CHOICE WHETHER TO KEEP FILMING, BEING IN DANGER TO BE SHOT AT, OR HIDE SOMEWHERE.

WE FILMED, BUT WE, OBVIOUSLY, COULDN'T SEND ANYTHING FROM THERE.

THERE WAS NO CONNECTION.

AND WE JUST WENT HIDING BECAUSE WE KNEW IF RUSSIANS COME IN THE HOSPITAL, THEY WILL CAPTURE US.

THEY WILL SEE THE CAMERAS, THEY WILL CAPTURE US.

WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO WITH US.

PUT US IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA AND SAY THAT EVERYTHING WE FILMED WAS NOT TRUE, OR WOULD JUST SHOOT US.

BECAUSE, WELL, NOW I KNOW THAT AT THE SAME TIME WITH US IN MARIUPOL, IN LITHUANIA, A FILMMAKER WAS -- HE WASN'T SENDING ANYTHING, BUT HE WAS NO MARIUPOL.

WHILE ATTEMPTING TO LEAVE MARIUPOL SEVERAL DAYS AFTER WE IS, HE WAS CAPTURED AND EXECUTED.

SO WE KNOW, LIKE WE KNEW THAT WE SHOULDN'T GET CAPTURED.

AND DOCTORS DRESSED US IN OVERALLS SO WE COULD PRETEND TO BE DOCTORS IN CASE RUSSIANS CAME IN.

BUT WE WERE SAVED.

IT WAS A MIRACLE THAT WE GOT OUT FROM THAT HOSPITAL.

IT WAS A MIRACLE.

>> SO, THIS IS JUST A SNAPSHOT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN A PARTICULAR CITY IN JUST A PARTICULAR SET OF WEEKS, AND HERE WE ARE STILL IN THE HEADLINES, THERE ARE REGULAR ATTACKS THAT ARE HAPPENING.

THERE IS AN ACTIVE SHOOTING WAR.

DID YOU THINK THAT THIS WOULD LAST THIS LONG?

>> I HOPED IT WOULDN'T, BUT FOR ME, IT LASTS ALREADY FOR NINE YEARS.

IT DOESN'T LAST FOR A YEAR.

IT LASTS FOR NINE YEARS.

AND ALL I'VE SEEN SO FAR IS ESCALATION OF THIS INVASION.

RUSSIA INVADED CRIMEA.

THEN IT INVADED DONBAS.

AND IT WAS FIGHTING, BUT THEN THERE WAS A PEACE TREATY WHEN RUSSIA AND RUSSIA KIND OF SWALLOWED THAT PART, OCCUPIED THAT PART OF THE TERRITORY.

NOW THEY ARE ADVANCING, AND THEY ARE HOPING FOR ANOTHER PEACE TREATY WHICH WILL ALLOW THEM TO OCCUPY EVEN MORE TERRITORIES, AND THEN I KNOW FOR SURE THAT THAT'S THE CASE, THEY WILL PREPARE IN A FEW YEARS, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AND THERE WILL BE JUST ENDLESS.

SO AS MUCH AS I WANT THIS TO BE OVER RIGHT NOW, I REALIZE THAT UNTIL -- UNTIL -- I GET THIS FROM SPEAKING TO UKRAINIANS.

UNTIL MOST OF THE UKRAINIAN TERRITORIES RECOGNIZED BY U.N. ARE LIBERATED, THERE WILL BE NO PEACE AND THERE WILL BE ALWAYS DANGER OF ESCALATION OF INVASION.

>> THE FILM IS "20 DAYS IN MARIUPOL."

DIRECTOR MSTYSLAV CHERNOV.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

STAY SAFE.

>>> THERE IS THAT ART OF DRAMATIC AND DARK FILM MAKING, AND THEN THERE IS THE COLORFUL WORLD OF THE ARTIST GRAYSON PERRY.

A RETROSPECTIVE OF HIS WORK IS ON DISPLAY IN EDINBURGH, SCOTLAND, SHOWCASES SOME OF HIS BEST PIECES.

THE WITTY SCULPTURE, TAPESTRIES, PRINTS PROVIDE SHARP SOCIAL COMMENTARY IN HIS U VEHICLE VOICE.

WEIGHS KNIGHTED BY THE PRINCE OF WALES AND ACCEPTED THE HONOR AS HIS FEMALE ALTER EGO CLAIRE.

WE THOUGHT WE'D BRING YOU THE CONVERSATION WE HAD DURING HIS LAST LONDON SHOW THAT WAS BEFORE COVID IN 2019.

GRAYSON PERRY, WELCOME BACK TO PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I WANT TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT YOU ARE NOW BEING REFERRED TO AS A NATIONAL TREASURE.

HOW DOES THAT FEEL AFTER BEING THE OUTSIDER FOR ALL OF YOUR CAREER?

>> I KIND OF -- I THINK I MISSED SOMETHING OUT IN THE MIDDLE.

I'LL TAKE IT, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT DOES REFLECT MY SORT OF PHILOSOPHY TO ART IN A WAY IN THAT I THINK THE OUTSIDER STANCE, YOU CAN WEAR IT OUT A BIT MUCH, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU START HAVING A SUCCESSFUL CAREER.

I AM A MEMBER OF THE ACADEMY.

I HAVE A GONG FROM THE QUEEN.

I CAN'T PRETEND I AM AN OUTSIDER ANY MORE.

I GOT CBE.

>> EXCELLENT CHLTZ YOU SAY THE ROYAL ACADEMY.

IN A WAY, AN EXPERIENCE THERE, I BELIEVE, LED TO THIS EXHIBITION OR AT LEAST THE NAMING OF THIS EXHIBITION BECAUSE YOU RECOUNT THAT YOU WERE THERE FOR A PARTICULAR EVENT AND ONE OF YOUR MEMBERS SAID, THIS IS VERY DECORATIVE.

>> YEAH, HE CALLED IT -- HE SAID I SEE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

INTERIOR DECORATION.

I THOUGHT, YEAH.

I SAID, THAT'S WHAT WE DO AS ARTISTS.

SUPER RICH INTERIOR DECORATION.

>> IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THAT IDEA OF INTERIOR DESIGN IS SORT OF MEANT AS A PUTDOWN, RIGHT?

YOU DECIDED TO THROW IT BACK IN HIS FACE.

IN FACT, YOU NAMED THIS SUPER RICH INTERIOR DECORATION?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, THIS IS MY FIRST COMMERCIAL SHOW IN QUITE A LONG TIME, AND I LIKE THIS GALLERY THAT THEY HAVE, IT'S SMALL AND I MAKE SMALL WORK.

AND SO I THOUGHT I WOULD MAKE A WORK THAT SORT OF PLAYED ON THE FACT THAT I AM IN THE RICHEST PART OF LONDON.

THEY WILL BE SOLD TO PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS.

I WANTED TO A KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGE AND PLAY WITH THAT.

I WANTED TO POINT OUT THE HIPPOCRISIES AND PERHAPS UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR OF THE SUPER RICH, BUT ALSO SAY YOU ARE A PART OF THE CONVERSATION.

WE DEPEND ON YOU, THE ART WORLD.

THE MONEY, NOT JUST IN FOR PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS, BUT INSTITUTIONS DEPEND ON THE, YOU KNOW -- THE WORD -- >> MAGNIFICENCE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

OF THE SUPER RICH.

>> THEY HAVE, IN SOME CASES, MAJOR ISSUES LIKE OXYCODONE BY THE SACKLER FAMILY.

SOME MUSEUMS HAVE PULLED THAT SPONSORSHIP.

OTHERS ARE SAYING, HANG ON A SECOND, WE ACTUALLY NEED THE MONEY.

WHY DON'T WE MAKE THEN PAY FOR THEIR SINS.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THAT?

>> IT'S COMPLEX BECAUSE GALLERIES, THEY ARE BEING STARVED OF MONEY BY THE PUBLIC PURSE BECAUSE OF AUSTERITY.

THAT'S NOT HIGH ON THEIR LIST OF PRIORITIES.

SO THEY ARE HAVING TO FIND FUNDS FROM SOMEWHERE.

AND IF YOU DIG DOWN IN A LOT OF MONEY, REALLY, YOU KNOW, TAKE GALLERY.

CLUE'S IN THE TITLE.

KATE WAS A SUGAR COMPANY.

WHERE DID THEY GET THE SUGAR?

WHO CUT THE SUGAR CANE?

IT'S ALL THERE.

AND SO THERE IS -- THERE IS SOME SORT OF DELICATE MANEUVERING AND DIPLOMACY TO BE DONE BUT THEN THE GALLERIES, THEY ARE FOR THE PUBLIC GOOD, TOO.

THEY ARE FREE IN BRITAIN.

MOST OF THE BIG MUSES ACCEPT SPONSORSHIP, THEY ARE FREE.

WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE?

>> I FIND YOU, YOURSELF, THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER, WHAT I HAVE BEEN READING ABOUT YOUR WORKS, YOU ALSO EMBODY A LOT OF CONTRADICTIONS BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT JUST A DECORATIVE ARTIST.

YOU ARE NOT JUST AN ARTIST.

YOU OPERATE IN A POLITICAL CONTEXT.

AND LET'S JUST TAKE ONE OF THE MAJOR, MAJOR PIECES HERE, WHICH IS REALLY QUITE MOVING.

IT'S BEAUTIFUL AS WELL.

THE ONE WITH THE HOMELESS FIGURE.

TELL ME THE STORY OF THIS CARPET.

HOW DID YOU CONCEIVE IT?

>> HOW IT WORKS I THINK IS IT'S A SEDUCTIVE OBJECT WITH ICE CREAMMY COLORS, IT HAS A VAGUELY SORT OF TRADITIONAL CARPET VIBE GOING ON IT.

AND YET YOU HAVE GOT THIS HOMELESS PERSON.

OF COURSE, THE IDEA, THE CENTRAL IDEA IS -- AND IT HOVERS IN THE AIR, EVEN IF IT NEVER HAPPENS, IS SOMEONE WHO WILL WORK ON A HOMELESS PERSON.

IT'S CALLED DON'T LOOK DOWN.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THAT GLASS FLOOR THAT THE WEALTHY HAVE PUT BELOW THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SCARED OF ENDING UP LIKE THIS AND THEY ARE SCARED OF THEIR CHILDREN ENDING UP LIKE THIS.

SO THEY FENCE THEIR PRIVILEGE IN VARIOUS SUBTLE AND NOT SO SUBTLE WAYS.

>> BUT PEOPLE GIVE THEM A WIDE BERTH.

YOU LOOK AT THEM ON THE PAVEMENT.

>> YES.

I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING.

A CARPET YOU MIGHT GIVE A WIDE BERTH.

FOR ME THIS IS THE BEST PIECE IN THE HOE BECAUSE IT HAS SO MANY KIND OF SUBTEXTS GOING ON IN IT.

AND IT'S DIFFICULT.

AND IT WORKS, YOU KNOW, IT EXEMPLIFIES THE NATURE OF MY WORK IN THAT IT'S SEDUCTIVE AND DECORATIVE AND YOU THINK, YOU REALLY COVETABLE.

I WANT THAT.

YET IT ALSO REPULSES.

AND IT MAKES YOU THINK.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT MY ENTIRE CAREER HAS BEEN ABOUT IN MANY WAYS.

>> THEY DON'T MIND IT RUBBED IN THEIR FACE?

>> THEY KNOW IT'S TRUE.

IT MIGHT BE UNCOMFORTABLE.

I AM SURE ALL THE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THE VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE THAT BUY MY ART, I AM SURE THEY WOULD DESCRIBE THEMSELVES ON THEIR CVs AS PHILANTHROPISTS.

>> I WANT TO KNOW WHO BUYS THIS AND WHAT THIS PERSON DOES.

>> I AM FASCINATED.

>> I WANT TO KNOW.

SO THIS I THINK YOU ARE SATIRIZING THE IDEA OF MING VASES INTO TABLE LAMPS.

>> IT'S A GREAT SACRA LIDGE.

IN THE PAST, THEY WOULD TURN LOVELY OLD ANTIQUE VASES INTO TABLE LAMPS.

IT WAS A TERRIBLE AFFRONT TO THE PURISTS LIKE ME.

YOU WILL OF MY INSPIRATION COMES FROM ANTIQUE VASES.

>> WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT RICH PEOPLE AND THEIR MONEY?

>> THERE IS OFTEN A KIND OF HYPOCRISY IN PEOPLE WHO DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS A PHILANTHROPIST AND THEN THEY HAVE GOT THEIR PARKING MOST OF THEIR DOSH IN PANAMA OR SOMEWHERE, STOP PAYING TAXES.

YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE A PHILANTHROPIST IF YOU PAID ALL YOUR TAX IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THE STATE WOULD HAVE MORE MONEY AND YOU WOULDN'T NEED THESE CHARITIES.

>> VOGUE SAID THAT WHERE THIS -- THIS EXHIBITION IS A LITTLE BIT WE ARE MAKING FUN OF THE WEALTHY OVERLAPS WITH MADE FOR THE WEALTHY.

THAT'S THE NEXTITION WHERE YOUR SHOW EXISTS.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> TOTALLY.

TO QUOTE BORIS JOHNSON, I AM PRO-CAKE AND PRO-EATING IT.

OFTEN ART OPERATES IN AMBIGUITY.

IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING.

IT'S HAPPY/SAD.

AND I THINK THAT SERIOUS HUMORISTS AND BEING KIND OF ON THE SIDE OF MORALITY AND ALSO TRYING TO THROW LIGHT ON IMMORALITY AT THE SAME TIME IS SOMETHING I'M FASCINATED BY.

THESE ARE INANIMATE OBJECTS.

THEY ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG.

AND I LOVE PLAYING WITH THAT.

AND I THINK BOTH SIDES ENJOY IT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE MAN ON THE STREET CAN COME IN HERE AND GO, YEAH, WE'RE GOING TO STICK IT TO THE MAN.

YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE PERSON WITH THE TAX HAVEN CAN GO, YEP, THAT'S ME.

I ACTUALLY SAID, THIS TAPESTRY, SOMEONE CAME UP TO ME AND SAID, I LOOKED AT IT AND I WEPT THROUGH WORDS ON IT AND SAID THAT'S ME TO A "T." YOU HAVE GOT ME.

>> ISN'T THAT CALLED A VERY RICH -- WHAT IS THAT CALLED?

>> LARGE EXPENSIVE ABSTRACT PAINTING.

>> EXACTLY.

WHICH IS KIND OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING A LOT OF ART BUYERS AND COLLECTORS DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE BUYING, BUT THEY WANT A LARGE, EXPENSIVE, ABSTRACT PAINTING.

>> THAT'S THE SUBTEXT THERE, THAT THOSE THINGS, YOU KNOW, THE LARGE AND EXPENSIVE MIGHT BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE ABSTRACT OR THE PAINTING.

>> RICH.

>> RITCHART COLLECTORS ARE USUALLY INTELLIGENT WELL HE HAD KATDS PEOPLE.

THEY ARE IN THE BOARDROOM, POLITICS, WHENEVER, GET THE TO FRO OF LIFE.

THEY ARE NOT SNOWFLAKES.

THEY TAKE IT ON THE CHIN.

AND PIKE SAID RIGHT BACK IN THE '70s, AN ARTIST'S JOB IS TO BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS HIM, BUT NOT TOO HARD.

>> AND YOU AGREE -- HE IS THE AMERICAN VIDEO ARTIST?

>> YES, VERY, VERY FAMOUS.

HE WAS ONE OF THE ABSOLUTE PIONEERS OF VIDEO ART.

>> YOU DESCRIBE OR DESCRIBE YOURSELF IN YOUR EARLY DAYS AS BEING, YOU KNOW, ANGRY ABOUT ASPECTS OF LIFE, ANGRY ABOUT THE POLITICAL REALITIES, ANGRY ABOUT THE SOCIAL INEQUALITIES.

NOW I HAVE SEEN THAT YOU SORT OF DESCRIBED YOURSELF AS AN AMATEUR SOCIOLOGIST ANTHROPOLOGIST.

YOU ARE SORT OF SHIFTING YOUR OWN MOOD A LITTLE BIT ON WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

>> YEAH.

WELL, YOU KNOW, I HAVE BEEN THROUGH VARIOUS PHASES IN A MY CAREER.

I HAVE GOT A SHOW COMING OUT NEXT YEAR, TOURING THE COUNTRY, THAT'S ALL MY WORK BEFORE '92, '94, AND IT'S CALLED GRAYSON PERRY THE PRETHERAPY YEARS, YOU KNOW.

BECAUSE I THINK THAT WAS THE WATERSHED IN ME.

I WAS ANGRY.

TO CERTAIN EXTENT, QUITE BITTER ABOUT, YOU KNOW -- BUT IT WAS -- I DON'T THINK IT'S WITH -- IT'S JUST ME AND I WAS HOLDING EMOTION IN MY BODY.

AFTERWARDS I HAVE A BROADER VIEW OF THE WORLD AND I -- MY WORK BECAME LESS AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL AND IT'S MORE ABOUT SOCIETY NOW.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPROVED FOR THAT.

>> AND YOU WERE MOSTLY ANGRY -- YOU HAD AN UNHAPPY CHILDHOOD?

>> YEAH.

AND I THINK THAT -- YOU KNOW, I WAS CARRYING A LOT OF UNEXAMINED FEELINGS, YEAH, WHICH I DID IN THE COURSE OF THERAPY AND I NOW FEEL PRETTY CLEANSED.

>> THE THERAPY IS THE WATERSHED MOMENT?

>> YEAH.

>> AND THAT'S NOT ABOUT THIS SUBJECT NECESSARILY, BUT THAT'S PROBABLY A REALLY IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE, OLDER PEOPLE RIGHT NOW STRUGGLING WITH MENTAL HEALTH CRISES.

>> YEAH, I WOULDN'T SAY EVERY SORT OF MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS YOU CAN DEAL WITH IT BY TALKING TO A THERAPIST.

BUT I THINK A LOT MORE THAN PEOPLE IMAGINE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE MOST BASIC WAYS WE GO THROUGH THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, WE INHERIT THEM AND THEY ARE DYSFUNCTIONAL FROM OUR PAST AND WE'VE GOT TO UNPICK THOSE.

>> WAS CLAIRE YOUR ALTER EGO PART OF TRYING TO BRIGHTEN UP A DIFFICULT LIFE OR DID SHE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR CHILDHOOD?

>> I AM SURE SHE HAD A LOT TO DO WITH MY CHILDHOOD.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT -- I MEAN, I OFTEN JOKE THIS THERE IS NO ONE AS SEXIST AS A TRANSVESTITE BECAUSE THEY -- A TRANSVESTITE, SOMEONE LIKE ME, DEPENDS ON VERY CLEAR GENDERED BEHAVIOR IN ORDER BOUNDARY ABOUT BEING IN THE WRONG CLOTHES, DOING THE WRONG BEHAVIORS, YOU NOIL, AND THERE IS AN EXCITEMENT AND A STIMULATION AND AN EROTIC CHARGE IN THOSE THINGS.

AND SO IF WE LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE EITHER SEX COULD BEHAVE IN ANY WAY THEY FELT FREE, THEN THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY TRANS VEST ITEMS.

>> YOU SAID THAT YOUR FEELING THINGS HAVE MOVED SO FAR, NOTHING IS ABNORMAL, NOTHING IS CROSSING THE LINE, AND YOU ARE NO LONGER FEELING LIKE YOU'RE THE, YOU KNOW, THE WEIRDO IN THE STREET IN A DRESS?

>> I AM GRAYSON PERRY NOW.

I AM STILL THE WEIRDO IN THE DRESS BUT CELEBRITY TRUMPS KIND OF AFFRONT IN SOME SORT OF WAY.

PEOPLE WHEN THEY SEE ME NOW THINK, THAT'S GRAYSON PERRY AND THAT'S NICE.

AND I HAVE A -- ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS THAT I LIKE -- OF COURSE MY TV WORK, AND THE NATURE OF THE KIND OF SUBJECTS I DEAL WITH, I HAVE A VERY BROAD DEMOGRAPHIC.

I LOVE IT WHEN A CABBIE SHOUTS OUT, I LOVE YOUR TAPESTRY, GRAYSON!

I AM THINKING, IT'S WORKING.

GREAT.

>> HAS CLAIRE CHANGED?

TO ME SHE IS LOOKING MORE BUFAUNT-Y.

>> IT'S A LOOK I ALWAYS LOVED SINCE THE '60s, I SUPPOSE, BECAUSE I GREW UP -- AND OUR SEXUALITY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT IS SHAPED OUR IN OUR CHILDHOOD.

THAT'S WHERE THE BUILDING BLOCKS OF OUR SEXUALITY ARE LAID DOWN, PARTICULARLY THE STYLING.

I GROUP IN A WORLD OF WOMEN WITH BIG HAIR WHO WERE WELL GROOPD.

I HAVE HAD A SOFT SPOT FOR THE GRAND DAM WITH THE BIG BEEHIVE HAIRDO.

LIKE THAT LOOK NOW.

AND I AM ON PART OVER THERE GOING AROUND THE WEST END SHOPS DRESSED AS TATA GRAND DAM AND I LOVE THAT LOOK.

IT'S PROBABLY MY FAVE LOOK.

IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK AND MONEY.

>> I THINK YOU SAID AN HOUR AND A HALF OF MAKEUP?

>> YEAH, IT'S REALLY -- YEAH, IT'S A LABOR OF LOVE.

MORE LABOR OF LUST.

I AM NOT SURE.

>> SO THIS IS YOU AS CLAIRE.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

YOU ARE OUTSIDE ALL THESE FANCY CLOTHES SHOPS.

>> ALL THESE DESIGNER CLOTHES SHOPS ARE WITHIN A HANDBAG'S THROW OF THIS EXACT GALLERY.

WE ARE HERE IN MAYFAIR IN LONDON.

SO I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FUN TO DO A FEES THAT KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGED THAT.

IT'S CALLED SHOPPING FOR MEANING.

IT'S AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE HUMANITY OF THE RICH IN SOME WAYS.

SORT OF SAYING YOU'RE LOOKING FOR MEANING.

>> I DO NOTICE YOU HAVE A SOFT SPOT FOR THE RICH.

I MEAN, YOU ARE TRYING TO -- [ LAUGHTER ] >> BUY ME, BUY ME.

YOU ARE TRYING TO HUMANIZE THEM.

WE ARE LIVING IN A MOMENT WHERE THE SUPER RICH ARE NOT THE MOST SUPER POPULAR.

>> A LOT OF PROBLEMS THAT WERE ATRAKTED TO THE RICH REACH FAR DOWN THE INCOME SCALE.

I AM NOT SAYING, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE AVERAGE INCOME.

BUT, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE WHO CAN AFFORD A NICE HOUSE IN THE MIDDLE OF A BIG CITY IN ONE OF THE DEVELOPED COUNTRIES IS DOING ALL RIGHT.

AND I THINK THAT THEY MIGHT WANT TO LOOK INTO THEIR OWN EYE BEFORE THEY -- >> INTERESTINGLY, IN THE OTHER ROOM WE SAW WHERE YOU ARE MAKING FUN OF THEM WITH THE MONEY GOING ON HOLOCAUST AND THAT WHOLE SORT OF STAGE, AND HERE YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU SAID, HUMANIZING THEM.

SO YOU HAVE A CONSTANT FLOW OF CONTRADICTION THROUGHOUT ALMOST EVERY PIECE IN BETWEEN PIECES.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, I'M -- YOU KNOW, I -- THAT'S THE LINE I WANT TO DANCE BECAUSE I THINK THAT IN THE END, AS AN ARTIST, IT HAS NO -- I LOVE -- WHEN I SEE A COMEDY SHOW, LIKE I DON'T KNOW WHETHER TO CRY OR LAUGH.

THERE ARE SWEETSPOTS FOR ME.

I TRY TO SORT OF IN MY OWN WAY WITH MY WORK TRY TO FIND, YOU KNOW, WHERE PEOPLE ARE KIND OF, OH, YOU KNOW, LIKE, MM -- >> SHOULD I LAUGH, SHOULD I CRY, SHOULD I BUY IT -- >> YEAH, ALL THESE THINGS ARE VERY, VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEY ARE HUMAN AND THAT'S WHO WE ARE.

I DON'T WANT TO AGGRANDIZE MY PROJECT, BUT IN THE END, I WANT PEOPLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE, WE ARE COMPLICATED, YOU KNOW?

AND HUMAN AND WE HAVE GOT TO DEAL WITH THAT.

WE ARE NOT A SET OF FACTS AND STATISTICS.

>> I WANT TO SORT OF GET YOU TO TALK ABOUT YOUR MESSAGE HERE.

DO YOU WANT TO READ THIS?

YOU WROTE IT.

IT'S THE LAST PARAGRAPH IN AN ARTICLE YOU WROTE FOR THE FT. >> OKAY.

HERE WE GO.

IN THE TITLES I AM TRYING TO CRITIQUE AND CALL OUT THE HIPPOCRISIES AND ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOR OF THE SUPER RICH WHILE COLLUDING AND SUCKING UP TO THEM AT THE SAME TIME.

WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE?

AND I THINK THAT -- YOU KNOW, THAT SUMS IT UP.

I THINK THAT IN THIS AGE OF POLARIZATION AND DIVISION IN SOCIETY, I THINK WE HAVE ALL GOT TO COME TO TERMS AND HAVE A BIT OF EMPATHY FOR THE OTHER SIDE, YOU KNOW?

AND YOU MIGHT FIND SOME OF THEIR OPINIONS -- BUT NOBODY IS REALLY AS BLACK AND WHITE AS TWITTER WOULD MAKE YOU THINK, YOU KNOW?

AND I HAVE JUST BEEN SHOOTING A TV SERIES IN THE STATES, YOU KNOW, AND -- ABOUT THESE ISSUES, AND THE MINUTE YOU TALK TO ANYBODY, ALL THAT -- AND YOU KNOW THAT, THE MINUTE YOU TALK TO THE PERSON, YOU HAVE A FLESH AND BLOOD PERSON IN FRONT OF YOU AND NUANCE AND COMPLEX AND IT'S DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU MIGHT LIKE THEM AND YET THEY HOLD ABHORRENT VIEWS.

IT'S TRICKY.

>> OKAY.

GRAYSON PERRY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

♪♪