>>> BACK ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL AFTER HIS COURT APPEARANCE IN HOW VOTERS ARE REACTING THIS MOST SERIOUS INDICTMENT WITH POLITICAL STRATEGIST SARAH LONGWELL.

THEN AS THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE GRUESOME DEATH APPROACHES IN IRAN WE LOOK AT A NEW DOCUMENTARY ON IRAN'S PROTEST MOVEMENT.

WITH PRODUCER SASHA JOELLA KEELEY AND THE NEW YORK TIMES JOURNALIST.

AND WHAT THE RUSSIAN STATE TRIAL SAYS ABOUT ALEX NOVOTNY.

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>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FRESH FROM THE COURTROOM AND BACK ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN WAR CHEST IS BEING DRAINED BY HIS LEGAL FEES ATTENDS A RAISING DINNER IN ALABAMA TONIGHT AND VISIT SOUTH CAROLINA ON SATURDAY.

ALL OF THIS AFT ARE ON RESIDENCE AT ALLEGATION AGAINST A U.S. PRESIDENT ONE DAY AFTER PLEADING NOT GUILTY TO FOR FEDERAL COUNTS CONTAINED IN A 45 PAGE INDICTMENT.

IS THE MOST SERIOUS AGAINST HIM YET.

ESSENTIALLY HE'S ACCUSED OF VACANT PIERCY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES WITH HIS EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

CNN REPORTS THE PRESIDENT TO BE IN A SOUR DARK MOOD SINCE THAT INDICTMENT AND THERE'S MORE TO COME REPORTEDLY IN THIS DATE OF GEORGIA WHERE HE DEMANDED ELECTION OFFICIALS FIND HIM THOUSANDS MORE VOTES.

HE IS STILL AHEAD OF THE ENTIRE FIELD IN THE PRIMARY RACE.

MY FIRST GUESS HAS HER FINGER ON THE PULSE.

SARAH LONGWELL IS A FORMER REPUBLICAN AND SHE'S FOUND THE REPUBLICAN ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT.

HERE WE HAVE LITERALLY SCORES OF FELONY CHARGES AGAINST THE PRESIDENTS.

YOU BASICALLY POLE AND EXAMINE THE PUBLIC AND VOTERS.

ARE THEY ABLE TO SEPARATE THE WHEAT FROM THE CHAFF AND ARE THEY ABLE TO MAKE SENSE OF THIS?

>> I TALKED TO TWO TRUMP VOTERS AND I TALKED TO THEM THIS WEEK BEFORE THE INDICTMENT CAME OUT BUT WE KNEW IT WAS COMING IN SO WE ASKED WILL THIS ONE MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

THIS ONE WHERE TRUMP, YOU KNOW, INCITED AN INSURRECTION WHERE HE DID NOT ENGAGE IN A PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER AND PEOPLE EXPRESSED A KIND OF YOU KNOW A THEY SAID WE DON'T CARE.

LOTS OF PEOPLE SAID THEY JUST DON'T CARE.

THEY JUST SEE IT AS A ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO GET TRUMP THE INDICTMENTS.

I CAN'T REALLY TELL THEM APART.

A LOT OF THESE TRUMP VOTERS HAVE MADE UP THEIR MIND A LONG TIME AGO ABOUT THE INSURRECTION AND TRUMPS CULPABILITY WHICH IS THAT THEY DON'T THINK IT WAS HIS FAULT.

THEY WOULD HAVE RANGE SOMEWHERE BETWEEN SAYING THAT IS THE FAULT OF THE PEOPLE WHO WENT IN THAT DAY TOO WELL THAT WAS BAD BUT WHAT ABOUT BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTEST?

ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THAT WAS A FALSE FLAG OPERATION MEANT TO MAKE REPUBLICANS LOOK BAD SO THIS IS THE REASON TRUMP IS STILL THE DOMINANT IS THAT SO MUCH OF HIS BASE JUST THINKS THAT EVERY IN LIGHT MITT IS MORE EVIDENT THAT ESTABLISHMENT AND THE DEEP STATE ARE SCARED OF TRUMP BECAUSE HE'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE PURSE AND THEY WANT TO TAKE THEM DOWN.

>> IS SO DO THEY ACTUALLY READ THESE INDICTMENTS?

OR DOES IT NOT MATTER?

THE LANGUAGE AND THE ACCUSATIONS AND ALL THE INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO BEAR IN THESE INDICTMENTS, INCLUDING FROM CERTAIN REPUBLICAN QUARTERS AND PEOPLE WHO USED TO BE PRO-FROM DISCUSSING ALL OF THIS KIND OF EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM.

DO THEY NOT READ IT?

>> THEY CERTAINLY DO NOT READ IT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I REALIZED TALKING TO TRUMP VOTERS FOR SO LONG IS HOW MUCH THEY LIVE IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT INFORMATION EQUALS THE SUM.

THERE IS A RIGHT WING SORT OF ATTAINMENT MEDIA SYSTEM THAT IS THERE TO TELL THEM THAT DONALD TRUMP DID NOT WRONG AND THERE IS PEOPLE OUT TO GET THEM AND THE FACT IS, YOU CAN SEE WHY THESE VOTERS BELIEVE THEM BECAUSE HIS NOT JUST THE VAN AND.

ALSO TIM SCOTT.

JOSE THIS INDICTMENT IS A GOOD INDICTMENT, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF OTHER NORMAL REPUBLICAN TOLD THE LINE THAT THIS IS AN ATTACK ON DONALD TRUMP AND A WEAPONIZATION OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND SO THAT'S WHAT VOTERS BELIEVE IT'S KIND OF A LOOP OF INFORMATION >> YOU ARE A FORMER REPUBLICAN HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS AND YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT A TRUMP SUPPORTER SO WHAT CAN AND WILL ANYONE OF THE COMPETITORS SEEK TO TELL A DIFFERENT STORY OF SOME POINT TWO SORT OF PEEL AWAY FROM THE TRUMP NARRATIVE.?

>> EUROS WITH INTEREST.

AFTER 2022 DONALD TRUMP FLAMED OUT CLEARLY THERE WAS A REAL IN THE OFFICE GROUPS, PEOPLE WERE REALLY READY TO MOVE ON FROM FROM.

THERE WAS A SENSE THAT HE HAD TOO MUCH BAGGAGE.

HE HAD LOST A STEP.

THEN SOMETHING SHIFTED.

THE MAIN PERSON PEOPLE WANTED TO MOVE ON TO WAS RON DESANTIS AND HIS VOTERS STARTED TO LOOK CLOSER AT HIM THEY JUST HAVE IT.

THEY THINK HE'S FINE.

I HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THAT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING AGAINST DONALD TRUMP NEED TO CAPTURE THE IMAGINATION OF REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS AND BECAUSE NOBODY IS SHOWING THIS SUFFICIENT POLITICAL TALENT OR CHARISMA AND THEY HAVE ALL KIND OF INTERNALIZE SO MUCH OF TRUMPS MESSAGING AND THEY ARE SO AFRAID OF HIS VOTERS THAT THEY ALL END UP SOUNDING SORT OF LIKE A KNOCKOFF BARGAIN BASED VERSION OF TRUMP AND VOTERS ARE NOT GOING TO WANT THAT WHEN THEY HAVE ACCESS TO THE REAL THING AND SO I THINK THAT'S THE DYNAMIC WE.

THERE IS NO ONE WHO CAN REALLY GO TOE TO TOE WITH HIM.

>> INTERESTING BECAUSE THE WHOLE POLITICAL CLASS BASICALLY SAID WELL, DESANTIS, YOU WILL SEE WHAT HE'S GOING TO DO.

EIGHTH MARTYRED TRUMP AND A TRUMP WHO CAN WIN AND AS YOU CAN THEY AS THE MOMENT IT LOOKS LIKE CRUMBLING HOWEVER, POLLING TODAY SHOWS HE'S DOING BETTER IN IOWA THAN NATIONALLY ALTHOUGH STILL BEHIND TRUMP.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

IS IT JUST BECAUSE HE'S NOT STANDING UP AND SEPARATING HIMSELF AND BEING A MINI ME?

>> LOOK I THINK IT GOES BACK TO THE QUESTION OF POLITICAL TALENT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY STUNNED ME WAS IF IT'S NOT TRUMP WHO ELSE ARE YOU INTERESTED IN AND SOME PEOPLE SAID TIM SCOTT AND THEY LIKED HIM THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING THE EARLY STATES.

NOBODY SAID RON DESANTIS AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT EVER HAPPEN.

RON DESANTIS IS USUALLY THE FIRST ALTERNATIVE PEOPLE GO TO AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE MEET HIM HORSE HE HIM THEY ARE JUST NOT FINDING THAT HE'S LIKE THAT RATE.

THEY THINK THE DISNEY THING IS WEIRD.

THE WORK STUFF GETS BORING BUT I WILL SAY THAT IOWA PEACE IS IMPORTANT AND THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH REALLY TO DO EATING DONALD TRUMP AND THERE IS A CHUNK OF PRIMARY VOTERS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN MOVING ON AND SO RON DESANTIS OR'S SOMEONE HAS TO WORK ON CONSOLIDATING THOSE VOTERS AND MOVING INTO THE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE TRUMP BUT ARE OPEN TO SOMEONE ELSE AND I THINK IOWA IS A GOOD PLACE TO DO IT.

I'VE DONE SEVERAL FOCUS GROUPS IN IOWA AND TRUMP HAS A LOT OF TRACTION BUT BECAUSE IT'S A CAUCUS THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A QUICK DYNAMIC.

IF PEOPLE IN IOWA WENT TO SOMEONE ELSE THAT COULD SHAKE UP THE RACE.

SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO BREAK THROUGH AND THAT WILL MEAN HAVING -- I THINK TIM SCOTT GETS CLOSER TO THIS BUT EVEN HE FEELS LIKE HE'S RUNNING FOR VICE PRESIDENT.

THEY CANNOT DO IT BY SAYING TRUMP WAS TERRIBLE.

I THINK THEY CAN GOLD WATCH HIM.

THEY CAN SAY HE IS A GREAT PRESIDENT BUT HE CAN'T TAKE US FORWARD.

I WILL TELL YOU ANOTHER THING ABOUT DESANTIS.

YOU BROUGHT THIS UP.

PEOPLE THOUGHT HE WAS TRUMP WITHOUT THE BAGGAGE.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THEY REALLY LIKED ABOUT HIM BECAUSE RON DESANTIS HAS RUN SO FAR TO THE RIGHT STREAM ON SO MANY ISSUES INCLUDING A PORTION NOW TRUMP IS ACTUALLY SEEN AS MORE ELECT TO BOLDEN RON DESANTIS.

RON DESANTIS I TRYING TO -- REALLY UNDERMINES THE CENTRAL THESIS OF HIS CAMPAIGN WHICH IS THAT HE WAS A MORE ELECTABLE CANDIDATE.

>> OBVIOUSLY MONEY IS A BIG PART OF ANY ELECTION AND ALTHOUGH TRUMP IS HAULING IN HUGE DONATIONS LOTS OF REPORTS SAY THAT IS ALSO RUNNING THROUGH THAT MONEY MOSTLY THIS THAT HE'S INVOLVED IN AND HIS PACK SAVE AMERICA'S MORE THAN 40 MILLION ON LEGAL FEES.

SOME OF THEM ARE IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE.

CHRIS CHRISTIE WHO IS CURRENTLY IN UKRAINE TRYING TO BURNISH HIS FOREIGN POLICY CREDENTIALS AND HAVE HIMSELF AND APART FROM DESANTIS AS A GROWN UP ON FOREIGN-POLICY IS TRYING TO USE THIS AS A FINANCIAL SITUATION TO ATTACK TRUMP.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> ALMOST PEOPLE WE NOW KNOW HAVE PAID OVER $40 MILLION OF THEIR HARD-EARNED MONEY FOR A BILLIONAIRES LEGAL FEES.

HE IS NOT ENOUGH OF A STANDUP PERSON HIS WEALTH AND HIS BIG PRIVATE 737 PLANE AND ALL THE REST THAT HE HAS IN MAR-A-LAGO AND THE TRUMP TOWER AND ALL THE REST AND HE'S MAKING REGULAR AMERICANS PAY HIS LEGAL FEES.

>> SO THAT THEY PRETTY AFFECT THE MESSAGE IS TRUMP ALWAYS SAYS HE'S FOR THE REGULAR AMERICAN.

WILL THAT CUT THROUGH, DO YOU THINK?

I DON'T THINK SO.

THEY KNOW THERE HAS BEEN -- WE HAVE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE .

FOR EIGHT YEARS HE HAS HAD SCANDALS FROM ORGANIZATION AND WAYS THAT HE'S USED MONEY.

THE WHOLE STOP THE STEAL CAMPAIGN.

THAT WAS FOR HIS LEGAL FEES AND EVERYBODY KNEW IT.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO MAKE THE ULTIMATE DIFFERENCE.

I DO WANT TO SAY WHAT I THINK CHRISTIE IS DOING IS IF THE ENTIRE FIELD WERE ACTING LIKE HIM AND MAKING THESE ARGUMENTS THERE WOULD BE LESS OF THIS COLLECT LIVE ACTION PROBLEM.

THIS CHRISTIE WILL NOT ENDEAR HIMSELF.

IF THEY WERE ALL DOING IT AND THEY WERE ALL GETTING THIS MESSAGE THROUGH AND THEY WERE ALL BEING THAT STRONG THERE WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER CHANCE OF TRUMP ACTUALLY TAKING SOME REAL HITS.

THE PROBLEM WITH CHRIS CRISTI IS THAT REPUBLICAN VOTERS MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT HIM A LONG TIME AGO.

>> WE'LL SEE HOW THAT PLAYS OUT.

LET ME ASK YOU IF -- EVENTUALLY WILL BE THE AMERICAN VOTERS WHO DECIDE TRUMPS STATE.

>> WOULD SAY DID YOU ACTUALLY STUDY TO TRY TO PROVE A NEGATIVE?

IS THAT GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE IN COURT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NO LAWYER BUT I SAT THROUGH ALL OF THOSE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE HEARINGS AND THE CASE THAT THEY MADE WITNESS AFTER WITNESS AND THESE WITNESSES WERE REPUBLICANS WHO WORKED FOR DONALD TRUMP PRIMARILY.

THEY WERE VERILY CLEAR THAT PEOPLE WERE TELLING THEM THIS IS WRONG.

IT WAS NOT STOLEN.

YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE CALL HE HAS AND HE SAYS CLEARLY THAT THERE WAS NO FRAUD.

THE REPUBLICAN QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY CHOSE TO BELIEVE THIS I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE ONE COMPLICATING FACTOR IN THIS.

THE EVIDENCE AND I THINK BILL BARR HAS TAKEN A DIFFERENT LINE AND SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN MEDIA >>> DRACONIAN NEW LAW WHICH WOULD STIFFEN PENALTY FOR THOSE WHO DON'T WEAR HIJAB.

AND EASIER TO IDENTIFY THEM.

COMES AS THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF THE DEATH APPROACHES.

SHE WAS THE 22-YEAR-OLD WOMAN THAT DIED AFTER BEING DETAINED BY IRAN'S NOTORIOUS MORALITY POLICE TRIGGERING MASS DEMONSTRATIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY TAKES A CLOSER LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT TIME.

HERE IS THE TRAILER.

>> UNPRECEDENTED PROTEST ACROSS IRAN.

>> EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS AND FOOTAGE FROM INSIDE THE HISTORIC PROTESTS.

THE WOMEN DEFYING THE REGIME.

AND THE VIOLENT CRACKDOWN.

>> I'M JOINED BY THE FILM PRODUCER AND I IRANIAN AMERICAN JOURNALIST WHO HAS BEEN COMING -- COVERING THE COUNTRY FOR YEARS AND CHRONICLES THE MOVEMENT WITH THE NEW YORK TIMES.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

LET ME ASK YOU, ABOUT WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO PRODUCE THIS DOCUMENTARY, HOW YOU DID IT BECAUSE YOU DID NOT GO TO IRAN.

HOW DO YOU GET ALL THE ELEMENTS?

>> I HAD QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO MADE A FILM, MADE A FILM ABOUT THE WHITE WEDNESDAY MOVEMENT, 2018, SOME WOMEN HAD TO REMOVE THEIR HIJAB IN PUBLIC AND WERE ARRESTED.

I FOLLOWED THE EVENTS IN IRAN CLOSELY.

WHEN SHE WAS KILLED, I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE COULD TELL A STORY ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON AND OBVIOUSLY AS YOU KNOW, REALLY HARD FOR FOREIGN REPORTERS TO GO TO IRAN AND WORKED THERE.

THE EXTRAORDINARY THING IS IRANIAN CITIZENS THEMSELVES WERE FILMING THE EVIDENCE.

AND POSTING WHAT THEY WERE WITNESSING ONLINE.

I GOT IN TOUCH WITH A FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE FILMMAKER AND I SAID, WHAT ARE YOU DOING, HOW DO YOU THINK THERE COULD BE A FILM ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

SINCE SHE WAS KILLED, EVERY NIGHT FOR 12 HOURS, I HAVE IN SITTING AND WATCHING EVERYTHING UPLOADED AND IN DOWNLOADING AND ARCHIVING IT.

BY THE TIME HE AND I SPOKE, HE HAD ARCHIVE OVER 70 TO 80 HOURS OF FOOTAGE THAT WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

HE PUT A TEASER TOGETHER TO GIVE ME A TASTE OF THE FOOTAGE OF THE THINGS HE HAD BEEN SEEING , WHICH I DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO, I DON'T SPEAK FARSI.

I DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO SOME OF THE TELEGRAM CHANNELS.

I WAS, WHEN I WATCHED WHAT HE SHOWED ME, I WAS MOVED, I WAS IN TEARS, I WAS ANGRY.

I KNEW ALONG WITH THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER THAT WE NEEDED TO GET THIS OUT THERE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> WE WILL DIVE INTO A LITTLE OF THE SPECIFICS BECAUSE IT DOES MAKE ONE ANGRY AND SAD GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO MANY OF THE WOMEN AND A LOT OF PROTESTERS INCLUDING CHILDREN.

AS A JOURNALIST COVERING, ALBEIT FROM A DISTANCE, WITH UNBELIEVABLE AND UNPARALLELED TO SOURCES INSIDE IRAN, YOU KNOW, ONE YEAR LATER, WHERE DOES THIS PROTEST MOVEMENT START?

WHERE DOES IT STAND?

YOU HAVE PROFILED MANY PEOPLE INCLUDING SOMEBODY IN PRISON IN IRAN, ACTIVIST.

WE THE PEOPLE OF IRAN ARE TRANSITIONING OUT OF ISLAMIC REPUBLIC THEOCRACY, TRANSITION BONE JUMPING FROM ONE POINT TO THE NEXT, LONG AND HARD PROTEST PROCESS.

EVIDENCE SUGGESTS IT WILL DEFINITELY HAPPEN.

YOU THINK EVIDENCE SUGGEST, WHAT YOU THINK IS THE TRAJECTORY FROM NOW?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK AFTER A YEAR OF THIS UPRISING, WE CAN DEFINITELY SAY IRAN HAS EVOLVED, THE SOCIETY HAS EVOLVED.

THERE IS A HUGE GAP BETWEEN THE PUBLIC AND ISLAMIC REPUBLIC AND THE DEMAND FOR OVERHAUL AND WHOLESALE CHANGE HAS NEVER BEEN MORE CLEAR.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT YES, SECURITY FORCES AND GOVERNMENT WAS SUCCESSFUL BRUTALLY CRUSHING THE MASS PROTEST WE SAW ALL OVER IRAN.

THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO REALLY KILL THE DESIRE FOR REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE THAT WE SEE IN IRAN.

WE HAVE SEEN PROTEST MOVEMENTS OVER THE PAST 40 YEARS SPARKED BY DIFFERENT THINGS.

THIS TIME AROUND, I THINK IT WAS VERY CLEAR THE PEOPLE IN THE STREETS, WOMEN LEADING, YOUNG PEOPLE AT THE FOREFRONT OF IT, THE NEW GENERATION CALLING FOR AN END TO THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

IF WE WERE TO LOOK AT THE WAY THE WOMEN CONTINUE TO DEFINE THE HIJAB LAW, CONTINUE TO DEFY THE GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF THEIR APPEARANCE AND HOW THEY APPEAR TO SOCIETY.

THE MOVEMENT THROUGH THE PEOPLE OF IRAN, THE DESIRE FOR CHANGE LIVES.

DESPITE THE NEW LOCK CONSIDERED IN PARLIAMENT THAT YOU MENTIONED AND CRIMINALIZATION OF SHOWING YOUR HAIR AND NOT WEARING HIJAB, REPORTING AND EVIDENCE SHOWS WOMEN ARE COMING OUT NOT WEARING THE HIJAB EVERY CHANCE THEY GET.

I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT WE SEE EVERY CHANCE PEOPLE GET BE AT FUNERALS, RELIGIOUS CEREMONIES, WHATEVER CHANCE THEY HAVE WITH CELEBRATIONS, WHERE PEOPLE CAN CONGREGATE IN PUBLIC, THESE GATHERINGS QUICKLY BECOME POLITICAL, THEY QUICKLY TURNED INTO A RALLY CRY AGAINST THE OPPRESSION THAT THEY FACE.

I DON'T THINK THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC CAN EVER GO BACK TO THE PRE-ERA.

>> IN THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTARY, WE HAVE BOTH SEEN IT, IT IS YET TO AIR ON PBS, IT WILL THIS COMING WEEK.

YOU HAVE ONE OF THE INTERVIEWEES SAYS, OUR GENERATION KIND OF ACCEPTED, HAD TO ACCEPT ALL OF THESE RESTRICTIONS ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

GEN Z AND THE YOUNGER GENERATION SIMPLY WILL NOT TOLERATE IT.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING NOW FROM INSIDE YOUR CONTEXT, ABOUT WHAT THE YOUNGER WOMEN ARE DOING, ABOUT HOW THEY PLAN TO RESIST, IF SO, ANY KIND OF NEW MORE DRACONIANLAWS THAT WE MENTIONED?

HONESTLY, IN TERMS OF THE NEWS THAT JUST CAME OUT ABOUT THE LAWS, IT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

ALTHOUGH THE STREET PROTESTS DIED DOWN, I WAS AMAZED BY THE BRAVERY OF YOUNG WOMEN GOING OUT ON THE STREETS NOT WEARING HIJABS, DANCING IN PUBLIC AND FILMING IT AND POSTING IT ONLINE AND COMMITTING THESE ACTS OF DEFIANCE.

CONTINUING ACTS OF DEFIANCE.

IT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK WHAT I UNDERSTOOD AND MAYBE CAN BACK ME UP ON THIS, GEN Z DOES NOT HAVE A DESIRE TO LEAVE IRAN LIKE THE PREVIOUS GENERATION DID TO SEEK A BETTER FUTURE AND TO FIND THAT FREEDOM THEY DID NOT HAVE IN IRAN.

I THINK WHAT WE HEARD WAS THEY ARE COMMITTED TO STAYING AND SEEING CHANGE.

PERHAPS YOU CAN PROVIDE MORE CONTEXT TO THAT.

>> WE ARE DEFINITELY SEEING THE YOUNGER GENERATION, EVEN BY THE ADMISSION OF THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT AT THE OFFICIALS IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM PAST GENERATIONS.

THEY ARE CONNECTED TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD, VERY MUCH ONLINE AND ACTIVE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, INSTAGRAM, TWITTER, FACEBOOK THEY SEE THE WAY OTHER PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES, PEOPLE THEIR AGE ARE LIVING.

THEIR DEMANDS AND ONES ARE VERY BASIC.

THEY WANT A BASIC LIFE, THEY WANT TO ADDRESS THE WAY THEY WANT, THEY WANT BASIC HUMAN RIGHT AND AGENCY OVER THEIR FATE AND THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A JOB THAT SUPPORTS THEM, BE ABLE TO GET MARRIED, BUY A CAR.

THEY LOOK AROUND AND THEY SEE NOT MANY YOUNG PEOPLE I TALK TO SAY, WE ARE NOT COMPARING OURSELVES WITH EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS.

WE LOOK AT THE REGION, THE WAY YOUNG PEOPLE LIVE IN TURKEY OR THE ARAB COUNTRIES AROUND US, WHY CAN'T WE BE THE SAME?

WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING IN IRAN.

WE DON'T HAVE POLITICAL FREEDOM, SOCIAL FREEDOM, ECONOMIC AND THEY ARE ALSO VERY FEARLESS.

AS THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC EVOLVED IN A WAY THAT IS KIND OF DISTANCED ITSELF FROM THE IDEOLOGICAL THINGS THAT FUELED IT IN THE EARLY YEARS, THIS YOUNG GENERATION IS NOT IDEOLOGICALLY INVESTED IN THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

THEY ARE NOT PARTICULARLY RELIGIOUS BUT THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS GLOBAL CITIZENS.

THEY ARE FEARLESS.

I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD NECESSARILY SAY THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE IRAN, EVEN THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN SORT OF STATISTICS SHOW PEOPLE WHO GRADUATE FROM COLLEGE, MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS, DOCTORS, NURSES, IF THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO LEAVE, THEY ARE LEAVING.

THE BRAIN DRAIN IS ARISING PATTERN.

THOSE WHO REMAIN OR THOSE WHO CAN'T LEAVE AREN'T JUST GOING TO GIVE UP, THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, WE WILL PUT UP WITH IT.

THEY HAVE SHOWN RESOLVE TO FIGHT.

>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY.

I WANT TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU WERE BOTH SAYING, THEY ARE BRAVE.

THE GOVERNMENT CRACKS DOWN ON THE MEDIA AND ANY SORT OF DIVERSITY IN THE MEDIA YET THEY CONTINUE TO USE WHATEVER ACCESS THEY HAVE TO THE INTERNET, SOCIAL MEDIA, CONTINUE TO POST ALL OF THESE VIDEOS OF INDIVIDUAL ACTS OF DEFIANCE.

S PLAY A SMALL CLIP FROM THE FILM HIGHLIGHTING THE MAJOR ROLE THE INTERNET AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS PLAYED SHOWING THE WORLD THESE PROTESTS.

>> DESPITE INTERNET BLACKOUTS IMPOSED BY THE GOVERNMENT, VIDEOS WENT VIRAL SHOWING EXTRAORDINARY ACTS OF DEFIANCE.

SCHOOLGIRLS FILMED AND SHARED FOOTAGE OF THEMSELVES DEFACING PICTURES OF THE SUPREME LEADER.

A CRIME UNDER IRANIAN LAW.

>> THAT SHOWS US IN START COLOR, BLACK AND WHITE, EXACTLY HOW THIS MESSAGE IS GETTING SENT AROUND THE WORLD AND WITHIN.

YOU HAVE ALSO, WE KNOW THAT YOUNG CHILDREN, YOUNG GIRLS, A LOT OF YOUNG WOMEN HAVE BEEN TARGETED BY SEXUAL VIOLENCE WHEN THEY ARE ARRESTED AND PUT IN JAIL.

EVEN UNDER SUSPICIOUS CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME HAVE DIED.

FOR INSTANCE, VERY WELL-KNOWN CASE IS THAT OF 16-YEAR-OLD.

HER MOTHER IS FEATURED IN THIS DOCUMENTARY.

IT IS A REALLY PROFOUND INTERVIEW.

THE WAY THE MOTHER SPEAKS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO HER DAUGHTER.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT, SASHA, ABOUT THAT STORY AND WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT PEOPLE WILL SEE THE MOTHER SAYING ABOUT THE DEATH OF HER DAUGHTER.

>> IT WAS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY TO HAVE HER AGREE TO SPEAK TO ONE OF THE WOMEN THAT WE FILMED IN THE DOCUMENTARY, REACHING OUT TO PEOPLE INSIDE IRAN TO UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WHAT WAS INCREDIBLE ABOUT HER NARRATION, DESPITE A LOT OF FAMILIES BEING THREATENED BY THE REGIME ONCE THEIR LOVED ONES HAVE DIED, SHE CONTINUES TO STAND UP AND CONTINUES TO SAY THAT HER DAUGHTER WAS KILLED BY THE REGIME.

AND SHE IS PROUD OF HER DAUGHTER AND FOR WHAT HER DAUGHTER DID ULTIMATELY SACRIFICING HER LIFE FOR WHAT SHE BELIEVES IN.

THIS WANT FOR FREEDOM THAT WAS SO BEAUTIFULLY PUT, THE BASIC FREEDOM, THE BASIC RIGHTS, THINGS PEOPLE IN THE WEST ARE USED TO.

I FELT LIKE THAT WAS INCREDIBLY MOVING FOR HER TO HEAR.

CALLING HER DAUGHTER AND SAYING TO PLEASE COME HOME, IT IS DANGEROUS AND YET FEELING REALLY PROUD OF HER DAUGHTER FOR THE SACRIFICE SHE MADE AND HOPES THAT CHILDREN'S BLOOD WON'T GO WASTED AND THEY DID NOT DIE IN VAIN ESSENTIALLY.

>> IRANIAN AUTHORITIES HAVE DENIED HAVING A HAND IN HER DEATH.

PREVIOUS CNN INVESTIGATION CAN INVESTIGATION SUGGESTING NIKA WAS DETAINED AT THE PROTEST SHORTLY BEFORE SHE WENT MISSING.

IT IS VERY DEEP TO HEAR THESE WOMEN, THESE MOTHERS TALK ABOUT HOW PROUD THEY ARE THAT YOUNG CHILDREN, YOUNG DAUGHTERS ARE BRAVER THAN THEY EVER WERE.

>> I THINK MOTHERS, GRIEVING MOTHERS HAVE BECOME A NIGHTMARE FOR THE US FOUR REPUBLIC BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY TRY TO OPPRESS THESE, CRACKDOWN AND THREATEN AND INTIMIDATE THE MOTHERS, THE CHILDREN THEY HAVE KILLED, THE MOMS COUNT.

I DID A BIG STORY ON NIKA SHAKARAMI , THEY WERE BOTH 16 YEARS OLD.

THEY BOTH WENT OUT TO DEMAND BASIC RIGHTS AND WERE BRUTALLY KILLED.

WHEN THEY KILL THE CHILDREN, THE HARASSMENT DOESN'T END THERE.

THEY CONTINUE TO HARASS THE FAMILIES, THEY THREATENED THE FAMILY.

NIKA 'S AUNT WAS DETAINED.

HER MOTHER WAS THREATENED.

IF YOU SPEAK UP, WE WILL MURDER YOUR SON, ALSO HER ONLY CHILD.

I INTERVIEWED NIKA 'S MOM ON THE PHONE AND OUR CONVERSATION WAS ABRUPTLY CUT BY WHOEVER WAS LISTENING, I ASSUME THE INTELLIGENCE MINISTRY.

DESPITE ALL THE PRESSURES, THE MOTHERS REFUSE TO BE SILENT THEY ARE GRIEVING MOTHERS.

AS YOU KNOW IN OUR CULTURE, MOTHERS HAVE PARTICULAR RESPECT IN OUR CULTURE.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE CAN LISTEN TO A MOTHER GRIEVING AND CRYING AND SPEAKING OF THEIR CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED AND NOT SYMPATHIZE AND EMPATHIZE WITH THEM.

THAT IS WHY THE REGIME WANTS TO SILENCE THE MOMS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE POWER THAT THEY HAVE.

WITH THE NARRATIVE OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES.

>> THAT COMES ACROSS LOUD AND CLEAR IN VERY POWERFUL WAY.

THIS FILM YOU HAVE GATHERED A LOT OF THE EVIDENCE POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THESE EXTRA INTERVIEWS SHOW THE TOTAL COURAGE OF THESE PEOPLE UNDER SUCH DAILY THREAT FOR THEIR LIVES.

WEATHER THEY ARE MOTHERS OR GIRLS.

WE HAVE THIS WHOLE SITUATION OF THE GIRLS SOMEHOW POISONED IN SCHOOLS AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

WHOLE NEW ARTICLE FOUND, IT IS YOUR ARTICLE, THE WAVE OF ALCOHOL POISONINGS THAT HAS JUST COME OUT.

THE ALCOHOL POISONINGS IN IRAN.

HEY, WHAT IS GOING ON?

THIS EXTRA APPARENTLY USE OF ALCOHOL, IS IT RELATED TO THE PRESSURES PEOPLE FEEL IN THAT COUNTRY RIGHT NOW?

>> THERE HAS BEEN A WAVE OF ALCOHOL POISONINGS BECAUSE ALCOHOL WAS BANNED, THE SALE AND CONSUMPTION.

THE UNREGULATED BOOTLEG MARKET HAS TAKEN OFF IN IRAN.

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE ALCOHOL THEY ARE BUYING, THE STILL AT HOME OR FAKE BRAND BOTTLES.

EVEN THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THERE HAS BEEN A RISE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DIED INCLUDING VERY FAMOUS IRANIAN ARTIST WHO DRINK WITH HIS FRIENDS AND FELL INTO A COAL MINE ABOUT A WEEK LATER.

THE PEOPLE THAT I INTERVIEWED INCLUDING PARTNERS AND FRIENDS AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE SAID WE ARE VICTIMS OF OPPRESSION.

IF IT WEREN'T FOR THESE RESTRICTED RULES, LIKE MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, WE WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO SAFE REGULATED ALCOHOL .

PEOPLE IN IRAN FEEL LIKE THEIR HOSTAGES TO ECONOMIC CORRUPTION, TO MANY DIFFICULT THINGS THEY ARE FACING.

THEY CAN'T GET A BREAK.

>> REMARKABLE CONTINUING REPORTING ABOUT REPORTING.

IT IS A REALLY AMAZING DOCUMENTARY THAT SYNTHESIZES EVERYTHING THE WORLD HAS BEEN SEEING OVER THE PAST YEAR AND PUTS IT INTO SHARP FOCUS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU CAN WATCH THE FRONTLINE DOCUMENTARY INSIDE THE IRANIAN UPRISING ON PBS NEXT TUESDAY.

THE FILM AVAILABLE TO STREAM FOR FREE ON THE FRONTLINE WEBSITE, YOU TOLD -- YOU TO, AND PBS OUT.

ALLIANCE RUSSIA ALSO CRACKS DOWN ON DISSENT.

TODAY, OPPOSITION ACTIVISTS ALEXEI NAVALNY SENTENCE ADDITIONAL 19 YEARS IN JAIL ON WHAT HIS TEAM CALLS TRUMPED UP CHARGES OF EXTREMISM.

NIC ROBERTSON JOINING US WITH THE LATEST.

DID EVERYBODY EXPECT THIS?

>> NAVALNY CERTAINLY DID.

HE TWEETED THIS MORNING THE PROSECUTION THE LAST 20 YEARS, HE THOUGHT THE JUDGE MIGHT GIVE THEM 18 YEARS, HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE WHATEVER THE OUTCOME WOULD BE, STALINIST APPROACH IN 19 YEARS.

NOT SHOCKED BY THAT.

JUST RELEASED ON TELEGRAM CHANNEL STATEMENT THAT SAYS 19 YEARS IN SPECIAL REGIME COLONY IS LIKE A LIFE SENTENCE.

ESSENTIALLY, I'M SERVING A LIFE SENTENCE ALREADY.

I DON'T THINK YOU SHOCKED BY IT.

IT IS REALLY GOING TO PUT HIM IN A PLACE HE CANNOT REACH HIS SUPPORTERS.

>> YOU FIND IT STRANGE OR NOTEWORTHY THAT THE RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES ALLOWED THE PRESS SOME ACCESS TO THE END OF THE SO-CALLED TRIAL INTO THIS VERDICT?

>> I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE IMAGES WE HAD, THEY ARE ALMOST COMICAL AND FARCICAL.

NAVALNY SAYS THAT THESE ARE TRUMPED UP CHARGES.

I THINK THAT STANDS THE SNIFF TEST HERE.

THE WHOLE COURTROOM ITSELF LOOKED AS FLIMSY AND PREFABRICATED AND TRANSITORY AS THE CHARGES AGAINST THEM AND WHERE THE MEDIA WERE HELD, THEY DID NOT GET INTO THE COURTROOM OF COURSE, THEY WERE KEPT IN ANOTHER ROOM.

THEY ONLY HAD ONE TELEVISION SCREEN WHERE THEY COULD SEE WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND THE, IN THE COURTROOM, HE COULD NOT SEE THE JUDGE, HE COULD ONLY SEE NAVALNY AND HIS LEGAL TEAM.

THIS IS THE MOST FARCICAL PART OF IT ALL, NAVALNY HAD A CODEFENDANT WITH HIM FROM HIS MEDIA TEAM.

THE AUDIO FROM THE JUDGE WAS SO DISTORTED, EVEN HIS LEGAL TEAM COULD BARELY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE JUDGE WAS SAYING ABOUT NAVALNY'S CASE.

THEY'RE STILL SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS ABOUT WHAT HIS CODEFENDANT, THE GENTLEMAN RUNNING HIS YOUTUBE CHANNEL FOR HIM, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT SENTENCE HE GOT.

FARCICAL.

>> ND.

THANKS FOR THAT UPDATE.

>>> FROM FIGHTING ALONGSIDE RUSSIAN FORCES TO STAGING ARMED UPRISING AGAINST THE KREMLIN AND SUPPORTING COUPS IN AFRICA, THE WAGNER MERCENARY GROUP NEXT TARGET COULD BE THE WEST, SO SAYS JOSHUA, CONTRIBUTE AND WRITER FOR THE NEW YORKER WHO RECENTLY PROFILED WAGNER CONSCRIPTS INCLUDING MEMBERS OF THE RUSSIAN RULING CLASS.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HIS ALARMING NEW FINDINGS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE THIS GREAT PIECE IN THE NEW YORKER ABOUT THE WAGNER GROUP, MERCENARY ARMOR LOYAL TO PUTIN BUT THEN REBELLED AGAINST HIM.

UNCLEAR WHERE THE LOYALTIES ARE.

BIG NEWS THIS WEEK LITHUANIAN PRESIDENT AND POLISH PRIME MINISTER ARE WORRIED THE WAGNER GROUP IS TRYING TO DESTABILIZE NATO BY GOING TO THE BORDER OF POLAND.

LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING THE POLISH PRIME MINISTER SAID, THE WAGNER GROUP IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

UNITS OF THIS GROUP ARE DEPLOYED ON NATO'S EASTERN FLANK TO DESTABILIZE IT.

WHAT IS THE WAGNER GROUP DOING AND WHY?

>> IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE WAGNER GROUP, OWING TO ITS LEADER, YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN OFTEN TIMES AS MUCH INFORMATION OR PR OPERATION AS IT IS MILITARY.

WE SAW THAT AT CERTAIN POINTS IN THE WAR IN UKRAINE OVER THE WINTER AND SPRING.

REALLY, THAT IS INTRINSICALLY TIED TO YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN'S BIOGRAPHY, HE AMONG OTHER THINGS WAS THE CREATOR OF THAT INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY, THE SO-CALLED ST. PETERSBURG TROLL FARM, AMONG OTHER THINGS CAUSED MISTRESS ONLINE AND PART OF THE RUSSIAN EFFORT TO INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTION.

TROLLING BOTH METAPHORICALLY AND IN SOME WAYS QUITE LITERALLY, THE WEST IS VERY MUCH PART OF PRIGOZHIN'S M.O.

AND GETTING WESTERN LEADERS, SOCIETIES, MILITARY LEADERS UPSET, WORRIED, GUESSING ABOUT WHAT WAGNER MIGHT DO IS EXACTLY PART OF PRIGOZHIN'S LARGER GAME.

I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK WAGNER INCURSION INTO EUROPE, ESPECIALLY NATO TERRITORY, IS ALL THAT LIKELY IN THE NEAR TERM .

BY MOST ESTIMATES, SEVERAL THOUSAND AT MOST WAGNER FIGHTERS THAT HAVE RELOCATED TO BASES IN BELARUS.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS REALISTIC CONTINGENT GIVEN THEIR SIZE AND ARMAMENTS THAT COULD TAKE ON NATO FORCES IN THE BALTIC STATES AND POLAND OR ELSEWHERE THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE A SUICIDE MISSION FOR WAGNER WHERE THEY ACTUALLY TO ENGAGE NATO FORCES.

KEEPING NATO ON EDGE, KEEPING NATO COUNTRIES GUESSING, WORRIED , HAVING TO DEVOTE THEIR OWN RESOURCES TO PRE-EMPTIVELY PROTECTING AGAINST WHAT MIGHT BE A WAGNER THREAT, EVEN UNLIKELY ONE, ALL OF THAT MARY MUCH -- VERY MUCH FITS WITH PRIGOZHIN AND RUSSIA OVER THE YEARS.

>> YOU SAY PRIGOZHIN AND RUSSIA'S STRATEGY, ARE THEY STILL ALIGNED ?

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE MANY MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION SURROUNDING WAGNER.

NOT JUST ONE OF THOSE BUT SEVERAL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WAGNER AND THE RUSSIAN STATE, PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE.

EVEN WITH THE HINDSIGHT, THE HELP OF HINDSIGHT LOOKING BACK AT WAGNER OPERATIONS IN SYRIA, AFRICA, AND OF COURSE UKRAINE OVER THE LAST YEAR.

IT IS NOT EVEN ALWAYS CLEAR WHEN WE ACTUALLY HAVE SOME DATA TO LOOK AT, HOW EXACTLY WAGNER IS CONNECTED TO THE RUSSIAN STATE HOW THEY CARRY OUT KREMLIN ORDERS OR ARE THEY FOLLOWING THEIR OWN INTEREST AND IMPERATIVES?

ESPECIALLY COMMERCIAL ONES AND HOW THAT MIGHT WORK IN THE FUTURE I THINK IS EVEN MORE OF A MYSTERY.

CLEARLY, PUTIN WAS DISPLEASED, TO PUT IT MILDLY, BY THE MUTINY, INSURRECTION, WHATEVER TERM YOU MIGHT PREFER THAT WAGNER MOUNTED, SPECIFICALLY PRIGOZHIN IN LATE JUNE.

WOULD LIKE TO PUT WAGNER ON A TIGHTER LEASH, HAVE MORE HIERARCHICAL CONTROL, BRING THEM TO THE SO-CALLED VERTICAL OF POWER AS THE PUTIN ERA HIERARCHY OF CENTRALIZED POWER HAS OFTEN REFERRED TO.

THAT IS TRICKY BECAUSE IN WAGNER'S VERY DNA IS ELEMENT OF ECONOMY AND DENIABILITY.

WHAT MADE WAGNER, WAGNER IS THE ABILITY FOR THE KREMLIN BOTH WITTINGLY AND WITH SERIOUSNESS KEEP THE GROUP AT ARMS LENGTH.

SAY THOSE AREN'T OUR GUYS PICKED WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN SYRIA AND AFRICA IS NOT OUR BUSINESS.

OF COURSE IT ALWAYS MATCHED UP WITH LARGER KREMLIN GEOPOLITICAL INTERESTS BUT IT WAS VERY CONVENIENT TO HAVE THIS DENIABLE SHADOW FORCE.

THAT IS A PARADOX NOW THAT THE KREMLIN WILL HAVE TROUBLE SOLVING.

>> ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS IN YOUR PIECE IS THE DESCRIPTION OF THE BRUTALITY OF THE WAGNER GROUP.

WE ALL KNEW IT BUT YOU REALLY BROUGHT IT HOME TO US, DESCRIBED THAT AND HOW YOU GOT THAT IN YOUR PIECE.

>> EVER SINCE WAGNER ENTERED THE WAR INTO UKRAINE LAST SPRING, WE BEGAN TO HEAR INFORMATION TRICKLING OUT ABOUT THAT KIND OF BRUTALITY THAT YOU MENTIONED.

PRACTICE KNOWN AS -- RUSSIAN FOR ZEROING OUT REALLY MACABRE AND AWFUL EUPHEMISM FOR BATTLEFIELD EXECUTION, THE KILLING OF THOSE WAGNER FIGHTERS MAINLY RECRUITS FROM RUSSIAN PRISONS WHO REFUSED TO MARCH FORWARD, WHO TRIED TO RETREAT, RAN AWAY FROM TRAINING BASES, ROUNDED UP BY WAGNER SECURITY AND IN FRONT OF OTHER WAGNER FIGHTERS PUBLICLY EXECUTED.

THAT IS A DEGREE OF BRUTALITY WE DON'T FIND, EVEN FROM THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES BY AND LARGE.

WE KNOW FROM THIS YEAR AND A HALF OF WAR HAS ITS OWN SHARE OF BRUTALITY AND WAR CRIMES, THE MASSACRE AT ABUJA AND TOO MANY OTHERS TO NAME.

THIS SEEMS SPECIFIC TO WAGNER.

THE USE OF HUMAN WAVE ATTACKS, STYLE OF FIGHTING WE HAVE NOT SEEN SINCE WORLD WAR II IN WHICH ONE WAY OR ANOTHER LARGELY OF THESE CONVICT RECRUITS RECRUITED OUT OF RUSSIAN PRISONS SENT INTO THE FIGHT, NOT EVEN TO ADVANCE OR SEIZE TERRITORY, THE FIRST WAVES SENT TO DRAW FIRE, TO BE ATTACKED SO OTHER WAVES BEHIND THEM COULD IDENTIFY UKRAINIAN POSITIONS AND FIRE UPON THEM.

THE SURVIVAL RATE FROM THESE HUMAN WAVE ATTACKS WAS ABSOLUTELY DREADFUL.

BODIES PILING UP.

I WAS ABLE TO SPEAK TO SOME OF THESE PRISON RECRUITS FIGHTERS WHO WERE INJURED OR CAPTURED ON THE BATTLEFIELD IN UKRAINE AND LOCATED OR HELD IN UKRAINIAN CUSTODY.

INSIDE UKRAINE I WAS ABLE TO SPEAK WITH SOME OF THE FIGHTERS WITH THEIR PERMISSION, THEY DESCRIBED INCREDIBLY GRUESOME, DIFFICULT, TRAUMATIC DETAIL HOW THEY AND THEIR COMRADES WERE USED IN THESE HUMAN WAVE ATTACKS WITH DEATH ALL AROUND THEM.

ONE WAVE AFTER ANOTHER MOW DOWN BY MACHINE GUN FIRE TARGETED WITH ARTILLERY.

WHAT I HEARD FROM UKRAINIAN MILITARY COMMANDERS WAS ESPECIALLY AT THE BEGINNING, A SENSE OF SHOCK AND DISORIENTATION AT HOW IRRATIONAL WAGNER FOUGHT.

WAGNER KEPT PUSHING HIM NO MATTER HOW MANY LOSSES THEY TOOK, THEY KEPT PUSHING FORWARD ONE WAVE AFTER ANOTHER.

FOR UKRAINIAN MILITARY UNITS, THIS WAS A DIFFICULT TACTIC TO DEFEND AGAINST.

THAT IN SOME MEASURE EXPLAINS WHY WAGNER WAS ONE METER AFTER ANOTHER WITH EXTRA ORDINARY LOSSES ON ITS OWN SIDE ABLE TO PUSH FORWARD, TAKE TERRITORY IN EASTERN UKRAINE ACROSS THE PORTION OF THE FRONT WHERE WAGNER WAS MOST ACTIVE ALL THE WAY UP TO THE CITY OF BAKHMUT, THE SIGNAL BATTLE FOR WAGNER AND ONE OF THE SIGNAL BATTERS -- BATTLES OF UKRAINE THAT WAGNER WAS ABLE TO CAPTURE MID- MAY.

>> ONE OF THE RECRUITS YOU TALK TO, A PRISONER THAT YOU TALK TO, I THINK HE DESCRIBED WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED AS A MEAT STORM.

THEN HE SAID IT WAS A GIANT MISTAKE.

GET ME INTO THE MIND OF A PERSON LIKE THAT.

>> THE PERSON YOU MENTIONED WAS RECRUITED OUT OF RUSSIAN PRISON, INITIALLY HE RECEIVED PRISON SENTENCE OF ALMOST 20 YEARS FOR MURDER.

IT WAS ONLY A FEW YEARS INTO THAT SENTENCE WHEN THE WAR IN UKRAINE STARTED.

AND WENT PRIGOZHIN PERSONALLY ARRIVED BY HELICOPTER IN THE PRISON YARD TO MAKE HIS PITCH, ESSENTIALLY JOIN WAGNER, FIGHT IN UKRAINE, YOU MIGHT DIE, PRIGOZHIN WAS VERY DIRECT AND HONEST, HE DID NOT HIDE THE COST OF THE WAR, THAT KIND -- GAVE HIM A KIND OF APPEAL AMONG CERTAIN SEGMENTS OF RUSSIAN SOCIETY.

IF YOU SURVIVE, WHICH I DON'T GUARANTEE, AFTER SIX MONTHS, YOU WILL HAVE YOUR FREEDOM.

FOR SOMEONE LIKE ALEXI, WHO IS DESPERATE AND SAW NEW FUTURE FOR HIMSELF, HAD CHILDREN ON THE OUTSIDE WHO HE THOUGHT HE MIGHT NEVER SEE AGAIN ORDERED THE AN OLD MAN WHEN HE GOT OUT OF PRISON, THIS GAMBLE SEEMED WORTH IT.

NO MATTER HOW MUCH PRIGOZHIN EXPLAINED AND DID NOT HIDE THE HORRORS OF WAR, IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE THE TRUE NATURE OF THE SO-CALLED MEAT STORMS, AS YOU SAID, THE USE OF HUMAN WAVE ATTACKS, THE USE OF PRACTICE OF ZEROING OUT THAT I REFER TO.

THE ACTUAL, VISCERAL, REAL EXPERIENCE FOR SOMEONE LIKE ALEXI, ONCE LATE ENDED UP AS A PARTICIPANT IN ONE OF THESE MEAT STORMS WAS FAR MORE AWFUL AND TERRIFYING THAN ANYTHING THAT HAD ALLOWED FOR.

AND FOR THAT REASON, ALEXI BELIEVED, AT LEAST AS HE TOLD ME, HIS PARTICIPATION IN THE WAGNER WAR EFFORT WAS A MISTAKE .

ALSO BECAUSE IT BECAME CLEAR TO ALEXI, AS HE NARRATED TO ME FROM UKRAINIAN CUSTODY, IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT CAVEAT, I WAS NOT ABLE TO INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY MANY OF THE DETAILS OF THE STORY LET ALONE HOW HE RELATED TO THEM EMOTIONALLY OR INTELLECTUALLY.

THE RECRUITING PITCH PRIGOZHIN MADE WAS VERY MUCH CENTERED ON RUSSIA UNDER ATTACK ON FOREIGN WESTERN NATO ARMIES FIGHTING RUSSIA, THE USE OF FOREIGN MERCENARIES AND THAT IS WHO ALEXI THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO UKRAINE TO FIGHT.

WHEN HE WAS ULTIMATELY CAPTURED BY A UKRAINIAN MILITARY UNIT BY GUYS HE SAID WERE MORE OR LESS JUST LIKE HIMSELF, THAT ALSO CAME AS A SHOCK, AT LEAST AS ALEXI NARRATED TO ME AND FOR THE REASON FOR HIM TO BELIEVE HIS PARTICIPATION IN THE WAR TO BE A MISTAKE.

>> ONE OF THE ORIGINAL COMMANDERS OF THE WAGNER GROUP IS DIMITRI, VERY MUCH NAZI SYMPATHIZER.

HOW MUCH IS THAT PART OF THE WAGNER GROUP ?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT, THE NAME ITSELF COMES FROM HIS OWN PROFESSED PROCLIVITY FOR THE GERMAN COMPOSER, RICHARD WAGNER, WHO HIMSELF WAS CELEBRATED FIGURE IN THE THIRD REICH AND AMONG HITLER'S FAMOUS COMPOSERS.

I HEARD FROM A NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND WIDE REPORTING ON THIS FROM RUSSIAN COLLEAGUES AND OPEN- SOURCE OF BOWEL UTKIN'S NAZI OR FASCIST PROCLIVITIES, CIRCULATIONS ABOUT RUSSIAN DOSSIER CENTER, SHOWING HIS SIGNATURE ON EXTERNAL SIGNATURE WITH TWO LIGHTNING BOLTS, SIGNATURE OF THE SS.

WHETHER THAT REASON OR GENERAL CLIMATE OF TOTAL BRUTALITY, CRUELTY, SADISM, THE INTERNAL CULTURE OF WAGNER, AS WE TALKED ABOUT WITH THE PRACTICE, FOR EXAMPLE, ZEROING OUT THE USE OF THESE MEAT STORMS IS INCREDIBLY BRUTAL.

THERE'S ANOTHER MOMENT IN THE PIECE I DESCRIBED FROM SYRIA WHERE WAGNER WAS ACTIVE OVER THE COURSE OF MANY YEARS AND STILL HAS A PRESENCE, VIDEO SURFACED AT A CERTAIN POINT SHOWING FIGHTERS WHO WERE LATER DETERMINED TO BE ATTACHED TO A WAGNER UNIT TORTURING A SYRIAN CAPTIVE, BEATING WITH HIM SLEDGEHAMMERS, TRYING TO CUT OFF HIS HEAD WITH A KNIFE, ULTIMATELY DECAPITATING HIM WITH THE SHOVEL.

WHEN I ASKED ANOTHER MEMBER OF WAGNER, THE TEAM, ASKED ANOTHER FIGHTER WHO WAS IN SYRIA FOR WAGNER, HORRIFIED BY THIS VIDEO , DISGUSTED BY THE BEHAVIOR SHOWN ON IT.

ASKED WHERE CAME FROM, WHY IT HAPPENED, HE SAID IT WAS EXTREME EXAMPLE OF ESSENTIALLY WAGNER TACTICS.

TO TRY TO CAUSE MAXIMUM TERROR, MAXIMUM HORROR AS A WAY OF FRIGHTENING BUT ENEMY.

I HEARD SOMETHING SIMILAR FROM A WAGNER FIGHTER I SPOKE TO WHO HAD FOUGHT IN UKRAINE WHERE HE LED A DETACHMENT OF PRISONER FIGHTERS.

THIS COMMANDER ALSO WITNESSED A SCENE OF SO-CALLED ZEROING OUT WHERE A NUMBER OF WAGNER FIGHTERS WERE PUBLICLY EXECUTED AFTER THEY APPARENTLY TRIED TO RETREAT FROM THE BATTLEFIELD.

THIS WAGNER COMMANDER SAID SOMETHING TO ME, THAT THIS STEMS FROM PRIGOZHIN'S OWN PHILOSOPHY IF YOU WILL, HIS OWN UNDERSTANDING OF WAR AND HOW TO CARRY IT OUT.

OF CAUSING MAXIMUM FEAR, NOT JUST TO THE ENEMY BUT WITHIN ONE'S OWN RANKS AS A WAY OF MAINTAINING DISCIPLINE.

WHY DO THOSE WAGNER FIGHTERS KEEP PUSHING FORWARD IN A WAY THAT I DESCRIBED HAVING HEARD ABOUT FROM THE UKRAINIAN COMMANDERS, THE WAY MOST OTHER MILITARY UNITS WOULD NOT BEHAVE ?

IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID IF THEY DIDN'T MOVE FORWARD, THEY WOULD BE MET WITH CERTAIN DEATH ON THE BACKEND, IF THEY CAME BACK WITHOUT HAVING ACHIEVED THEIR OBJECTIVE OR SEEM TO RETREAT.

IT WAS THROUGH THESE TERRIBLE METHODS THAT PRIGOZHIN BELIEVED HE WAS ACHIEVING A CERTAIN EFFECTIVENESS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> YOU END YOUR PIECE WITH REPORTING FROM A CAMP IN BELARUS WHERE THIS FOUNDER OF PRIGOZHIN'S WAGNER GROUP, DMITRY UTKIN , TELLS A CROWD, LET ME QUOTE FROM YOUR PIECE, THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS, THIS IS NOT THE END BUT JUST THE BEGINNING OF THE BIGGEST JOB IN THE WORLD WHICH WILL BE CARRIED OUT VERY SOON.

THAT IS PRETTY OMINOUS.

WHAT IT HE MEAN BY THAT?

I AGREE.

IT IS OMINOUS.

THAT IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE WAGNER BRAND, IF YOU WILL.

TO PROJECT AN AIR OF MAXIMUM MINUTES.

WHAT I THINK IS REALLY GOING ON , AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER IN OUR CONVERSATION, WAGNER, SPECIFICALLY PRIGOZHIN BUT PEOPLE LIKE UTKIN ARE STILL NEGOTIATING WITH THE CREWMEN ON WHAT THEIR FUTURE ROLE WILL BE, WHERE THEY WILL BE DEPLOYED AND HOW THEY'RE LARGELY OFF THE BATTLEFIELD FOR NOW IN UKRAINE BUT STILL VERY PRESENT IN PLACES LIKE AFRICA, SYRIA AS WELL.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE EVOLUTION INTO SOMETHING WE MIGHT CALL WAGNER 2.0.

THAT IS HAPPENING IN REAL TIME.

I THINK IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY EXACTLY HOW THIS GROUP WILL OPERATE AND WHERE GOING FORWARD.

WHAT IS CLEAR, THIS RETURNS TO SOME THEMES WE TALKED ABOUT SO FAR, PRIGOZHIN'S WINGS ARE MUCH LESS CLIPPED THAN WE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT A MONTH AGO.

HE HAS MUCH MORE FREEDOM TO ACT AND PURSUE HIS AMBITIONS THEN WE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT WAS THE CASE, SAY ON THE DAY OF JUNE 24th.

THE MERE FACT THAT UTKIN GAVE HIS SPEECH ALLUDING TO FUTURE WORK AND EXPANSION OF WORK SHOWS HOW MUCH THE WAGNER STORY IS STILL NOT OVER.

>> JOSHUA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> REVISITING HISTORY.

80 YEARS AGO, YOUNG LIEUTENANT NAMED JOHN F KENNEDY NAMED IN THE SOLOMON ISLANDS WHEN IS WORLD WAR II PATROL BOAT SUNK BY JAPANESE DESTROYER.

THE CREW ENDED UP OVERBOARD BUT KENNEDY LED THEM TO SAFETY ON A TINY ISLAND 3 1/2 MILES AWAY TO FIND FOOD, JFK SWAPPED SURROUNDING ISLANDS BEFORE TWO ALLIED ISLANDER SCOUTS CAME TO THE RESCUE.

HIS ACTIONS EARNED HIM NAVY AND MARINE CORPS MEDAL AND PURPLE HEART.

THE ONLY PRESIDENT TO HAVE RECEIVED THAT MEDAL.

ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE SHIP SINKING FROM HIS DAUGHTER, THE CURRENT AMBASSADOR TO AUSTRALIA, CAROLINE KENNEDY, AND HER SON JACK RE-CREATED PART OF HER FATHER'S HEROIC SWIM.

>> INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE FOR ME AND MY SON.

LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO BE HERE AND THANK THE COMMUNITY AND FAMILIES OF THE SCOUTS.

>> SHE SAID THE ISLANDS MADE PRESIDENT KENNEDY THE MAN HE WAS AND WHERE HE FIRST EXPERIENCED THE RESPONSIBILITY OF LEADERSHIP.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER ON PBS.ORG/TRAN02.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.