>>>HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> DONALD TRUMP, PUTS HIMSELF FIRST.

>>'S MISSION IS TO SAVE HIS COUNTRY AND HIS PARTY FROM TRAUMA.

I TALKED TO THE FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR, ABOUT CONFRONTING THE REPUBLICAN FRONTRUNNER.

>>> TO PREDICT SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND HAVE IT HAPPEN, AND NOT BE ABLE TO STOP IT, THERE ARE NO WORDS FOR THAT.

>> SIX YEARS ON FROM LONDON'S DEADLY GRAND TOWER FIRE.

THE TRAGEDY RETOLD AT THE CITY'S NATIONAL THEATER IN THE WORDS OF SURVIVORS.

I TALKED TO THE PLAYWRIGHT, JULIAN SOLOW.

>>> I WANT PEOPLE TO LOVE EACH OTHER.

I DO WANT TO SAY THEY SHOULD HAVE TO LOVE EACH OTHER.

>> THE POWER OF LOVE AND COMMUNITY IN THE HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE.

WALTER EISEMAN, TALKS TO JAMES McBRIDE, ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BLACK AND JEWISH NEIGHBORS IN ONE AMERICAN TOWN.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M HERE IN LONDON.

THE WASHINGTON GRAND JURY THAT INDICTED DONALD TRUMP, FOR HIS ALLEGED INTERFERENCE HAS BEEN WORKING OVERTIME TODAY.

THE JURORS ARE REREADING EVIDENCE, FROM THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, RIGHT UP TO THE SHOCKING JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION AT THE CAPITOL.

DESPITE BEING PART OF THREE LEGAL INDICTMENTS, AND THE AMOUNT OF THE COST OF EXTENSIVE LAWYERS, HE IS HEAD AND SHOULDERS ABOVE OF THE REST OF THE PACK.

RACING TO BECOME THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL REPUBLICAN NOMINEE.

MOST OF HIS RIVALS ARE TOO TIMID TO TAKE THEM ON.

NOT OUR FIRST GUEST.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, IS THE FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY, AND A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR.

NOW, AS A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, HE SAYS FLAT OUT, THAT DONALD TRUMP, CAN'T BE THE NOMINEE, AGAINST PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, JUST GOT BACK FROM UKRAINE, WHERE HE MET WITH PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY.

THAT IS WHERE OUR CONVERSATION BEGAN.

>> GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CAN I START WITH UKRAINE?

YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE.

MIKE PENCE, AS WELL, OF THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES AND HAVE THAT BEEN THERE TO SHOW INTEREST IN SOLIDARITY, WITH THE FIGHT THAT AMERICANS ARE HELPING THEM WAGE.

HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOU?

>> IT IS AN INCREDIBLE, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE.

WHEN YOU GO THERE, AND YOU SEE THE CRUELTY, AND THE BARBARISM THAT WAS EXECUTED BY THE RUSSIAN ARMY, IT IS REALLY BREATHTAKING.

STORIES OF CIVILIANS AND MEN, BEING PULLED OUT OF THEIR HOMES BY RUSSIAN ARMY.

THEIR EYES HAVE BEEN GAPS OUT.

THEIR EARS HAVE BEEN CUT OFF.

THEY HAVE BEEN MURDERED EXECUTION STYLE IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD, AND THEN GOING INTO HOMES, AND GOING TO THE ACTIVE RAPE, ON WOMEN.

I WENT TO THE CATHEDRAL WHERE THE MEMORIAL NOW SITS.

THE CHURCH WAS ALSO RANSACKED.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE TOLL ON THE CHILDREN.

IT WAS VERIFIED NOW, THAT NEARLY 25,000 CHILDREN WERE KIDNAPPED BY THE RUSSIAN ARMY.

THEY WERE DIFFERENT TO THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

THE MOTHERS AND FATHERS IN UKRAINE, DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEIR CHILDREN ARE DEAD OR ALIVE, WHETHER THEY ARE BEING CARED FOR OR ABUSED.

THEY THINK THE WORST.

I HAVE MET WITH SOME OF THOSE PARENTS.

I CAN TELL YOU AS A DAD, AND FOR MYSELF, I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY PUT ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER WITH THAT CONSTANT WORRY.

THE END OF THAT, AS I SAT THERE, I FELT TO MYSELF, THIS IS THE BARBARISM THAT IS BEING PUTIN.

THIS IS THE GUY THAT DONALD TRUMP, CALLS A GREAT LEADER, AND BRILLIANT.

IT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, WHAT WOULD IT MEAN IF DONALD TRUMP, WON THE PRESIDENCY AGAIN?

OR WOULD IT MEAN FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BATTLE IN UKRAINE?

>> HE HAS SAID INCREDIBLY, THAT HE WOULD SETTLE THE METAL IN 24 HOURS.

HE WAS GOING TO GET THE WALL BUILT ON THE BORDER OF MEXICO.

HE GOT 52 MILES OF WALL, AND IS NOT ONE PESO FROM MEXICO.

I WILL GIVE HIM THAT MUCH CREDIBILITY.

OR I WORRY ABOUT, IS THAT HE WOULD TURN UKRAINE OVER TO RUSSIA.

HE WOULD WITHDRAW ALL OF THE >>> MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW IN ARTILLERY ALONE, RUSSIA IS SHELLS INTO UKRAINE.

UKRAINE IS ABLE TO RESPOND WITH ONLY 6000.

THE PESSIMISM THAT IS BEING SHOWN BY SOME WESTERN OFFICIALS, I BELIEVE, IS BASED UPON TWO BAD PREMISES.

ONE, THEY ARE ILL-INFORMED ABOUT HOW OUTGUNNED WE ARE ALLOWING THE UKRAINIANS TO BE.

TWO, THEY HAVEN'T LOOKED IN THE EYES OF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, AND PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, LIKE I HAVE.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS ARM THEM TO WIN.

GIVE THEM GREATER ARTILLERY.

GIVE THEM GREATER ANTITANK AND ANTIAIRCRAFT MISSILES.

GIVE THEM F-16s.

IF WE DO THAT, I BELIEVE THE UKRAINIANS CAN WIN THE WAR.

THAT WILL BE A MAJOR WIN FOR THE WEST.

IT WILL BE A HUGE MISCALCULATION BY VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHO WINS THE ELECTION.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PRIME REASON AND YOUR PARTIES.

FORMER DONALD AHEAD IN THE POLLS.

YOU HAVE DISTINGUISHED YOURSELF BY BEING IN FULL THROTTLE ATTACK MODE AGAINST HIM.

SOME OTHERS CRITICIZE THEM.

NONE AS FORCEFULLY AS YOURSELF.

EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE NOT DOING MASSIVELY WELL IN THE POLLS, WHAT IS REMISSION?

WHAT IS YOUR AIM?

>> MY AIM IS TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

LET ME SAY THIS.

IN THE LAST TWO DAYS, TWO NEW NEW HAMPSHIRE POLLS HAVE COME OUT.

I'M IN THIRD PLACE AT 11%, ONLY TWO POINTS BEHIND RON DeSANTIS.

THE NEW ONE CAME OUT TODAY, HAS ME TIED FOR SECOND PLACE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE WITH RON DeSANTIS.

THAT IS THE FIRST STEP FOR ME.

WE ARE SETTING THEMSELVES UP AS A RACE BETWEEN ME AND DONALD TRUMP IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

IF WE DO THAT, I BELIEVE WE WILL BEAT DONALD TRUMP IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

IF WE DO, WE ARE GOING TO SHOW THAT THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES.

DONALD TRUMP, WHO MANY PEOPLE THOUGHT WAS THE INEVITABLE NOMINEE, WILL NOT BE.

I WILL BE THE NOMINEE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

I WILL DEFEAT PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN.

THAT WILL BE A GREAT DAY.

NOT ONLY FOR OUR COUNTRY, BEFORE AROUND THE WORLD.

IT IS THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND LIBERTY.

WE NEED OUR ALLIES TO COUNT ON THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

WHEN WE DO, IT MAKES THEM RICH, FREE, SMART, AND STRONG.

>> COMPARED WITH DONALD TRUMP, PARTICULARLY IN THIS FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AS A CANDIDATE.

YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, AS VANITY RUN AMOK.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT HE IS A PETULANT CHILD.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOUR MISSION, IS TO DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR PARTY, AND SAVE YOUR COUNTRY.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO IT GIVEN THAT ALL OF THE POLLS THAT WE HAVE FOR THE FOCUS GROUPS WILL TALK ABOUT REPUBLICANS THAT ARE DOING THAT?

WHAT IS THE BASE FOR THE PEOPLE?

WHAT ABOUT REPUBLICANS?

HAVE THEY HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR GENERATION?

THEY CONSIDER YOU AN OLD REPUBLICAN.

I DON'T MEAN CHRONOLOGICALLY, BUT PHILOSOPHICALLY.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

SECOND, I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP, IS DECLINING.

THESE NATIONAL POLLS, ME NOTHING IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE DON'T HAVE A NATIONAL PRIMARY.

WE HAVE A STATE-BY-STATE PRIMARY.

THAT DETERMINES WHO THE NOMINEE WILL BE.

THE FIRST ONE WILL BE IN IOWA IN MID-JANUARY.

LATE JANUARY, EARLY FEBRUARY, IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

THOSE ARE THE FIRST TWO, AND VERY IMPORTANT, TO DETERMINE THE TONE OF THE RACE.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

I BELIEVE THAT AMERICANS DO WANT THIS COUNTRY TO FOCUS ON THE BIG THINGS AGAIN.

WE HAVE AN EDUCATION SYSTEM WHERE A THIRD OF OUR CHILDREN, CAN'T OPERATE AT A GRADE LEVEL.

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH THE NEXT SET OF CUTTING-EDGE INVENTIONS.

THE NEXT SET OF ECONOMIC ACHIEVEMENTS, IF WE HAVE CHILDREN WHO CAN'T READ AT A THIRD-GRADE LEVEL, WE ARE NOT SPENDING ENOUGH TIME ON THAT.

WE ARE NOT SPENDING ENOUGH TIME ON HOW WE ARE GOING TO FIX ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS.

WE WILL HAVE A 25% CUT IN SOCIAL SECURITY, AND IT BANKRUPT MEDICARE SYSTEM.

I'M THE ONLY ONE IN THIS RACE TALKING ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

I THINK IT WILL BREAK THROUGH.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW WE ARE AT A REAL CROSSROADS IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT IS TIME TO STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHO THE TV STARS ARE.

WE ARE WORRYING ABOUT WHO CAN LEAD THIS COUNTRY, AND LEAD THE WORLD.

LASTLY, ON PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, AS I ADMITTED TO YOU, HE HAS DONE BETTER THAN DONALD TRUMP DID.

HE HAS DONE JUST ENOUGH IN UKRAINE FOR THE UKRAINIANS NOT TO LOSE.

A CHRISTIAN ADMINISTRATION, TO WIN.

THEY WILL SET A DEFEAT IN MOTION FOR THE RUSSIANS, AND THE CHINESE.

>> WHAT WILL YOU DO ON THE DEBATE STAGE?

I BELIEVE THE FIRST ONE IS COMING UP IN LATE AUGUST.

YOU HAVE SAID IN A CHAT WITH THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EDITORIAL BOARD, AMONGST OTHER THINGS, DONALD TRUMP, CAN'T WIN.

BY THE TIME WE GET TO THE DEBATE STAGE IN THREE WEEKS, WE WILL BE OUT ON BAIL IN FOUR DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS.

I HARDLY THINK THAT IS GOING TO PLAY WELL.

WHEN YOU SAY DONALD TRUMP CAN'T WIN, YOU SAY HE CAN'T WIN THE PRIMARY?

MAYBE HE CAN'T WIN AGAINST PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN?

>> I KNOW HE CAN'T WIN.

HE HAS ALREADY PROVEN TO BE A LOSER.

HE LOST IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS IN 2018.

HE LED US TO BIG DEFEATS IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS IN 2022.

THAT WAS ALL BEFORE HE HAD ANY CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

I KNOW THAT INDEPENDENT VOTERS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE NOT GOING TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP IN THE FALL OF 2024.

AS FAR AS THE PRIMARY IS CONCERNED, IT IS NOT UP TO ME, AND OTHER CANDIDATES WHO ARE WILLING TO FIGHT DONALD TRUMP DIRECTLY, TO LEAD THEM INTO DEFEAT.

THEY ARE LEADING OUR PARTY TO A CHANGE.

IT IS A GENERATIONAL CHANGE.

ALSO, A PHILOSOPHICAL CHANGE.

THE PHILOSOPHICAL CHANGE IS VERY SIMPLE.

IT IS ABOUT PUTTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FIRST.

NOT THE EGO, OR THE INTEREST OF ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL.

DONALD TRUMP, DOES NOT PUT AMERICA FIRST.

HE PUTS HIMSELF FIRST.

WE SEE THAT ALL THE TIME, AND EVEN IN THE SPEECHES THAT WE ARE GIVING NOW, HE SPENDS HOURS GOING ON AND ON ABOUT HIS PROBLEMS.

HIS PROBLEMS ARE ALL SELF- CREATED.

HE SHOULD HAVE FIXED THEM HIMSELF.

HE IS DOING A THING LIKE SPENDING $40 MILLION OF DONATION MONEY TO PAY HIS LEGAL FEES JUST IN THE LAST HALF YEAR.

THIS IS NOT A WINNING FORMULA FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE.

>> WHAT ABOUT RON DeSANTIS, THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FROM FLORIDA?

HE SEEMS NOT TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CHALLENGE DONALD TRUMP YET.

WE UNDERSTAND FROM FOCUS GROUPS, THAT VOTERS DON'T EVEN BRING THEM UP WHEN THEY ARE ASKED ABOUT CANDIDATES.

HE HAS GONE ANTI-WOKE.

HE HAS GONE DEEP INTO THE SO- CALLED CULTURE WARS.

HIS WHOLE IDEA OF FORBIDDING CERTAIN EDUCATION ABOUT FORMER SLAVES IN AMERICA, TALKING ABOUT HOW SLAVES ACTUALLY LEARN STUFF THAT WAS USEFUL TO THEM.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

IT GOES TO THE HEART OF EDUCATION AS WELL.

>> THE CHOICE IS BETWEEN WHAT RON DeSANTIS THINKS ABOUT THIS, AND WHAT FOLKS LIKE TIM SCOTT, AND BYRON DONALD THINK ABOUT IT IN MY PARTY, I WILL SIDE WITH THEM.

THEY BELIEVE THERE WAS NOTHING ABOUT SLAVERY THAT WAS PRAISEWORTHY.

I AGREE WITH THEM.

I THINK THAT AGAIN, THIS IS CONCENTRATING ON THE SMALL THINGS.

HAVING ARGUMENTS ABOUT THESE OF THINGS, NOT TALKING ABOUT THE OVERALL EDUCATION SYSTEM, AND HOW TO MAKE IT BETTER.

THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT INFLATION.

THEY ARE HURTING EVERY FAMILY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, AS THEY TRIED TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE, AND THEY PAY THEIR RENT.

THEY PUT GASOLINE IN THEIR CAR.

THESE ARE THE BIG THINGS THAT WE NEED CRIME STOPPERS FOR.

THEY ARE OUTRAGEOUS.

I RAN THE FIFTH-LARGEST FEDERAL PROSECUTION OFFICE IN THIS CITY FOR YEARS.

I WILL MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE AN ATTORNEY GENERAL THAT IS FOCUSED, BY CLEANING UP THE CRIME PROBLEM IN OUR CITIES.

IF WE DON'T HAVE GREAT CITIES IN AMERICA, WE WON'T HAVE A GREAT COUNTRY.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU AGAIN, CONFRONTING DONALD TRUMP .

I WOULD USE THE WORD AGGRESSIVE.

I'M SURE YOU WOULD AGREE.

WHATEVER YOU LIKE.

OF ALL CANDIDATES, YOU WEREN'T ALWAYS THERE.

YOU USED TO SUPPORT HIM.

YOU HELPED HIM WITH DEBATE PREP READ YOU ACTUALLY GOT COVID FROM HIM.

HE WANTED TO BE A MEMBER OF HIS CABINET.

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THIS 180?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I TURNED DOWN FOUR CABINET POSITIONS, AND THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I COULD HAVE BEEN SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY OR LABOR.

WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF.

I TURNED THOSE ALL DOWN.

WE WANT TO BE CLEAR ON THE RECORD RIGHT THERE.

I DID SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP.

I THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN HILLARY CLINTON.

I DID NOT BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP LEFT, HE LEFT ME.

WHEN HE STOOD BEHIND THE SEAL OF THE PRESIDENT AND THE EAST ROOM OF THE WHITE HOUSE, AND SAID THE ELECTION HAD BEEN STOLEN, WHEN HE HAD NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THAT, WE KNOW NOW THAT WAS A COMPLETE LIE.

WHEN HE DID IT THAT NIGHT, I WAS ON ABC DOING COMMENTARY.

I SAID THAT NIGHT, I CANNOT SUPPORT SOMEONE WHO WOULD MAKE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THE ELECTION THAT THEY JUST PARTICIPATED IN, WAS STOLEN.

HE HAD NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

HE STILL DOES IT TODAY.

HE STILL PERPETUATES THE LIGHT TODAY.

HE PERPETUATED THAT LIE ON JANUARY 6th.

UP TO CAPITOL HILL.

URGING THEM TO GO UP TO CAPITOL HILL.

BLAMING THE FAILURE OF THE REVERSE ELECTION ON MIKE PENCE.

HE WAS DOING HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY AS VICE PRESIDENT.

PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CRITICAL OF DONALD TRUMP, WHEN I THOUGHT HE MADE MISTAKES.

IN 2020, AFTER THE ELECTION, AND ON ELECTION NIGHT, I BROKE WITH HIM PERMANENTLY.

I'M RUNNING IN THIS RACE.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT AMERICA NEEDS THE TYPE OF LEADER WHO PUTS THEMSELVES BEFORE THE COUNTRY.

WE NEED A LEADER WHO IS WILLING TO TRY TO IGNITE THE COUNTRY BEHIND SMART, CERTAIN PRINCIPLES.

HE WANTS TO LEAVE THE WORLD AGAINST THE EFFORTS OF THE COMMUNIST CHINESE.

THIS IS AGAINST THE EFFORTS OF THE AUTHORITARIAN RUSSIANS, AND A THEOCRACY IN IRAN READ IT IS THE CRAZINESS OF KIM JONG-UN, IN NORTH KOREA.

I DON'T THINK HE IS A GOOD GUY, LIKE DONALD TRUMP DID.

I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE DID.

HE CONTINUES TO BUILD MORE INTERCONTINENTAL, BALLISTIC MISSILES.

THEY ARE TRAVELING AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THAT WE NEED TO CONFRONT, TO KEEP OUR WORLD SAFE, SECURE, AND FREE.

>> DO YOU THINK VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS A GOOD GUY?

YOU WENT THERE, AND YOU MET HIM.

YOU GAVE HIM FRAME THE LYRICS BY BON JOVI.

IT IS MY LIFE.

SOMETHING LIKE THAT SONG.

WE SAW AT THE V GARY VERY BEGINNING OF THAT SONG, THEY WERE ORGANIZING SANDBAGS IN DEFENSE.

TELL ME HOW THAT CAME ABOUT.

>> I KNEW ABOUT THAT VIRAL VIDEO THAT YOU REFERENCED GRADE I WAS THINKING ABOUT WHAT GIFT TO BRING PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY.

MY WIFE AND I HAVE BEEN FRIENDS FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS NOW .

THEY ARE FELLOW NEW JERSEY PEOPLE.

I CALLED JOHN, AND SAID I WAS GOING TO SEE VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, AND THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA IF I COULD BRING HIM SOMETHING.

HE SUGGESTED THAT HE WROTE OUT THE LYRICS TO IT'S MY LIFE IN HAND, AND HAD THEM FRAMED.

HE GOT THEM TO BE.

I DELIVER THEM TO PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY.

I THINK IT IS ANOTHER SYMBOL OF REGULAR AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT BELIEVE IN FREEDOM AND LIBERTY.

THEY BELIEVE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE IS NOT A TERRITORIAL DISPUTE.

IT IS A BIG AGGRESSION BY A BARBARIC ADDICT 30, WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHO NEEDS TO BE SENT A MESSAGE TO.

THIS IS ALONG WITH HIS PRESIDENTIAL FACTOR OF XI JINPING, IN CHINA.

I'M GLAD THAT PRESIDENT TRENT 23, WAS VERY APPRECIATIVE OF THE GIFT.

GIVEN WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH IN UKRAINE, IF WE CANNOT ONLY GIVE THEM SUPPORT, GIVE THEM A MOMENT OF LEVERAGE, AS I DID WHEN I GAVE THAT GIFT TO HIM, I THINK THAT IS A GOOD >> ON THAT NOTE, GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>>> TURNING NOW TO A TRAGEDY THAT REVERBERATES SIX YEARS LONG IN LONDON.

JUNE 2017, IN AN APARTMENT BLOCK IN WEST LONDON, IT CAUGHT FIRE WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE INSIDE.

72, WERE KILLED.

AS THE FIRE RAGED OUT OF CONTROL FOR MORE THAN 24 HOURS, THE TRAGEDY LAID BARE SHOCKING INEQUALITY IN BRITISH SOCIETY.

THE WILL FOR HAZING AND FIRE REGULATIONS ACROSS THE CAPITOL, AND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING MAJOR PUBLIC INQUIRY.

IT IS STILL GOING ON.

A NEW PLAY HERE IN LONDON, IS REALLY TELLING THAT INTERESTING STORY.

GRANT FELL, IN THE WORDS OF SURVIVORS, IS BASED ON EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THROUGH THE DISASTER.

THE PLAYWRIGHT, JOINS ME HERE IN THE STUDIO TO DISCUSS THIS.

LOOK INTO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS INCREDIBLE TO HEAR MYSELF IS STILL GOING ON.

THEY HAVEN'T FINISHED THAT.

THIS IS SIX YEARS LATER.

WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU WANT TO TELL THIS STORY IN THIS FORMAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS LIKE WHAT MANY PEOPLE WATCH AROUND THE WORLD, AS THEY LIVED IN HORROR.

THEY THOUGHT, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A BUILDING IN ONE OF THE RICHEST CITIES IN THE WORLD, AND ONE OF THE RICHEST AREAS IN THE CITY, COULD BURN LIKE THAT?

I BEGIN TO THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS MISSING FROM THE STORIES, IS THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN THAT TOWER.

THEY HAD THEIR VOICES, AND THEY KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR THEM TO LIVE IN THE TOWER.

THEY KNEW HOW THEY WANTED TO CHANGE EVENTS.

THIS WAS UNSUCCESSFUL, BECAUSE NOBODY WOULD LISTEN TO THEM.

THEY BEND TOGETHER AT THE END OF THE FIRE, TO HELP EACH OTHER WHEN THE STATE, BOTH BIG AND SMALL, FAILED THEM.

>> WHAT YOU HAVE DONE, IT IS VERBATIM, RIGHT?

YOU HAVE INTERVIEWED PEOPLE.

TALK TO US ABOUT THE PROCESS THAT NOW SHOWS UP ON STAGE.

>> I INTERVIEW PEOPLE OVER A PROCESS OF MANY YEARS.

I INTERVIEWED QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE.

BOTH FROM THE TOWER, AND PEOPLE FROM THE SURRENDERING AREA, IT WAS OUT OF THEIR TESTIMONY.

I CHOSE THE STORIES THAT I THOUGHT COULD BEST SHARE WITH AUDIENCES, WITH THE EXPERIENCE WAS.

I CHOSE 11 PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN THAT TOWER, WHO SURVIVED THE FIRE.

THEY WERE ALSO BEREAVED BY THAT FIRE.

I HAVE KNITTED TOGETHER THEIR STORIES.

FIRST OF ALL, THEY TALK ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO LIVE THERE, AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING WHEN THE TOWER WAS REFURBISHED.

THE REFURBISHMENT IS PART OF THE MATERIALS THAT WE USE ON THE TOWER.

IT WAS THE FAILURE OF THAT REFURBISHMENT, IS WHY THAT POWER OF THE FIRE WAS SO GREAT.

THAT IS WHY THE BUILDING BURNED.

WE HAVE EXPERIENCED THROUGHOUT THE NIGHT OF THE FIRE.

ASTONISHING STORIES OF SURVIVAL, ACTUALLY.

>> WHAT DO YOU DO ON STAGE?

YOU HAVE THAT TESTIMONY FROM THE ACTUAL SURVIVOR.

IT IS NOT THEM WHO SAID THAT ON STAGE.

>> UNTIL THE END.

YOU DO ACTUALLY HAVE A SMALL FILM WITH SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE.

THEY ARE TALKING ON FILM.

YOU ACTUALLY DO MEET THE REAL PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW THIS IS NOT A FICTION.

THIS IS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

>> WE DON'T OBVIOUSLY HAVE SOUND FROM YOUR ACTUAL PLAY.

WE DO HAVE SOUND THAT WE ALL CAPTURED WHEN WE WENT DOWN TO COVERAGE.

WITH ACTUAL SURVIVORS ON THAT DAY, LISTEN NOW.

>> I TOOK MY DAUGHTER.

I JUST RAN TO THE STAIRS.

AS SOON AS I RAN OUT, I SAW THE FIRE HOLDING ONE SIDE.

INSIDE, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

NOTHING CAME INSIDE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY ALARM, ANY WATER, NOTHING.

IT WAS VERY SHOCKING.

>> HALF OF THE PLACE WAS ON FIRE.

WHEN WE RUSHED DOWN, BEFORE THE POLICE AND EVERYONE GOT NEAR US, WE COULD SEE PEOPLE WAVING, AND SCREAMING FROM THE WINDOWS.

>> WHAT DID YOUR ACTORS FEEL?

WHAT DID THEY GO THROUGH, HAVING TO PLAY THIS OUT?

>> I THINK THEY STARTED BY FEELING THE PAIN OF WHAT PEOPLE HAD GONE THROUGH.

THEY ALSO HAD THE PRIVILEGE, AS I HAVE HAD, ABOUT MEETING THE ACTUAL PEOPLE.

FEELING ALSO THE HEROISM OF ORDINARY PEOPLE.

THIS WAS IN THE SENSE THAT THEY COULD GO THROUGH THAT HORROR.

NOT ONLY TO SURVIVE, BUT TO BAND TOGETHER TO HELP EACH OTHER.

THEY WILL CAMPAIGN SO THAT THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN TO ANYONE ELSE.

EXPERIENCED, IS BOTH THE DIFFICULTIES AND THE PAIN THAT PEOPLE EXPERIENCE.

ALSO, IT WAS THE WONDER OF THEIR SURVIVAL.

IN A WAY, I THINK I FEEL THAT IT WAS A REAL HONOR FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO MEET THESE PEOPLE, AND TO HAVE THEIR WORDS, AND TO BE ABLE TO PUT THEIR WORDS ON STAGE.

I THINK THE ACTORS FEEL SIMILARLY.

>> IS THE INTERACTIONS BETWEEN THE ACTORS IN THE REAL PEOPLE?

>> YES.

IN FACT, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, I CONSULTED WITH THE REAL PEOPLE.

I SHARED THE PLAY WITH THEM IN VARIOUS DRAFTS.

THEY WERE THE FIRST PEOPLE TO GO TO THE FIRST READING OF THE PLAY.

I HAVE TAKEN THE FEEDBACK.

MANY OF THEM HAVE COME TO SEE THE PLAY.

SOME CAN LIVE THROUGH THAT EVENING AGAIN.

ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY SUPPORTIVE.

IN FACT, THE OTHER DAY, I JUST GOT AN EMAIL FROM THEM THE OTHER DAY.

WE WANTED TO TELL THEM WHAT A GREAT JOB THEY WERE DOING.

AND THEIR EXPERIENCE?

A LOT OF PEOPLE FAILED.

IT OBVIOUSLY CAPTURED SOME PEOPLE'S HEARTS.

THERE WAS SOME UNPLEASANTNESS AROUND THE COMMUNITY.

SOME OF THEM WERE IN THE PRESS.

SOME OTHERS TALKED ABOUT IT.

IT WAS SOMEWHAT DISPARAGING ABOUT THOSE WHO LIVED IN THE COMMUNITY.

>> FROM MY EXPERIENCE, THEY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN MORE WRONG.

THIS IS A WONDERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE.

IN MANY WAYS, ALTHOUGH THE PLAY HAS GUT WRENCHING STORIES, IT WILL MAKE YOUR HEART FEEL.

IT IS ALSO A STORY OF COMMUNITY AND NEIGHBORHOOD.

THESE PEOPLE REALLY ARE A GREAT NEIGHBORHOOD.

THEY ARE A LESSON FOR THE WHOLE WORLD OF HOW TO BUILD A COMMUNITY.

THEY KEEP COMMUNITIES TOGETHER.

>> IT IS 11 PEOPLE'S TESTIMONIALS.

SOME HAVE COME TO SEE IT.

YOU HAVE HAD INTERACTIONS WITH THEM.

WHAT ABOUT THE GREATER COMMUNITY?

THERE HAS BEEN SOME PUSHBACK OVER THE NUMBER OF YEARS.

CERTAIN TV SHOWS, HAVE HAD PREVIOUS PLAYS.

HOW HAVE THEY PORTRAYED WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH?

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PUSHBACK.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

DO YOU EVER COME ACROSS THAT?

>> I DO UNDERSTAND IT.

I HAVE COME ACROSS IT, NOT IN A MAJOR WAY, BUT I UNDERSTAND IT.

MANY PEOPLE WERE DAMAGED BY THE FIRE.

MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL TRAUMATIZED BY IT.

THEY ARE ANGRY ABOUT IT.

THE ONE THING THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO DO, AND WHAT THEY WILL KICK BACK AGAINST, IS OTHER PEOPLE STEALING THEIR WORDS AND THEIR EXPERIENCE.

THIS IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE HAVE DONE.

WE HAVE USED THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE.

I HOPE SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE SCARED, IS THAT WE WILL SCARE THE COMMUNITY, AND SEE THEIR WORDS.

THEY WILL SEE WHAT WE HAVE DONE.

MY EXPERIENCE IS, PEOPLE WHO COME OUT.

THEY END UP FEELING REALLY SORRY FOR WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

ALSO, THEY ARE ANGRY ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED THEMSELVES.

THEY WANT TO HELP MAKE IT DIFFERENT FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

I THINK THAT IS WORTH DOING.

>> DO YOU THINK FICTIONAL DRAMAS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, LIKE WHAT BBC HAS DONE?

>> I HAVEN'T SEEN THE OTHER ONE.

>> INTERESTINGLY, THIS GOES TO THE HEART OF IT AS WELL.

WE ARE NOT SHOWING THE FIRE.

YOU DID NOT SHOW, DEPICT, OR TALK ABOUT THE ACTUAL IMAGERY.

THIS WAS FOR A REASON.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT.

SOME PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH THEY STILL STAND THERE SHROUDED AS A MEMORIAL TO THIS TERRIBLE DAY, SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT IT PULLED OUT.

>> SOME PEOPLE FEEL LIKE IT IS A GREAT SITE.

I THINK IT HAS TO BE PULLED DOWN.

IN THE END, IT IS TOO DANGEROUS TO KEEP OUT.

THERE IS A PROCESS OF CONSULTING WITH COMMUNITY TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT SHOULD STAND ON THAT LAND.

I DON'T THINK HOUSING CAN EVER STAND ON THAT AGAIN.

I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE SOME KIND OF MEMORIAL.

THEY ARE DOING A CONSULTATION TO THE COMMUNITY ABOUT IT.

>> I WANT TO PLAY AN EXCHANGE THAT I HAD WITH A FIREMAN DONE THERE AT THE TIME.

YOU STARTED BY TALKING ABOUT HOW THE FIRST PART OF IT IS PART OF A REGULATION THAT WOULD RUN AMOK.

IF THE REGULATIONS FOR WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN, THAT FIRE WOULD NOT HAVE BURNED NONSTOP LIKE THAT.

THIS IS THE MAN WHO DESCRIBED IT AS A BLAZE LIKE NOTHING HE HAD EVER SEEN BEFORE.

>> I HAVE BEEN HERE 25 YEARS.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A FIRE WITH THAT INTENSITY, SPREAD SO QUICKLY THROUGHOUT A BUILDING OF THIS SIZE.

IT IS UNPRECEDENTED.

AS I WAS SAYING IT THIS MORNING, IT HAS BEEN EXTREMELY CHALLENGING FOR OUR STAFF.

I CAN CERTAINLY GO OUT TO ANYONE THAT HAS BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS INCIDENT TONIGHT.

>> HE HAS NEVER SEEN SUCH A THING.

HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

WE ARE CHANGING THESE REGULATIONS.

DO YOU ALSO HOPE THAT THIS IS A MESSAGE TO THE GREATER COMMUNITY AND COUNTRY?

STILL, SO MANY BUILDINGS ARE CLAD IN THIS TERRIBLY DANGEROUS MATERIAL.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS A MESSAGE TO GOVERNMENT FIRST OF ALL.

THEY REALLY NEED TO CHANGE THE REGULATIONS.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

PEOPLE CANNOT FILL OUT THE REGULATIONS, OR SAY THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, BECAUSE THEY ARE SO BADLY WRITTEN.

ALSO, THOSE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE BUILDINGS, THE COMPENSATION IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE.

IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE TO TAKE IT OFF.

THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT IS EFFECTIVELY THE FAULT OF REGULATION, AND BUILDERS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE BRINGING TO THE TABLE?

YOU ARE ORIGINALLY SOUTH AFRICAN.

HER PARENTS WERE VERY FAMOUS SOUTH AFRICAN APARTHEID ACTIVISTS.

YOUR MOTHER, WAS ASSASSINATED.

TAKE US BACK TO WHAT FORMS YOU.

WHAT ABOUT THE CRUCIAL SENSIBILITY, AND HOW THE SENSITIVITIES WERE FORMED?

>> I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BELONG TO A FAMILY WHERE BOTH OF MY PARENTS COULD NOT KEEP SILENT ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING ABOUT INEQUALITIES, AND RACIAL INEQUALITIES IN THE COUNTRY IN WHICH I WAS BORN, SOUTH AFRICA.

ALTHOUGH AT MANY TIMES, IT WAS INCREDIBLY STRESSFUL TO BE PART OF THE FAMILY, BECAUSE I SPENT MY CHILDHOOD WITH MY PARENTS BEING CARTED OFF TO JAIL, AND THEN LATER ON, SOMEBODY KILLED MY MOTHER, IT WAS FOR THE WORDS THAT SHE SPOKE.

SHE WAS AN ANTI-APARTHEID ACTIVISTS, WHO TALKED.

IT WAS A TREMENDOUS DIFFICULTY OF BELONGING TO THE FAMILY, AND A TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE OF BELONGING TO THE FAMILY.

TO GO BACK AND SEE SOUTH AFRICA, WHICH HAS MY PARENTS NAMES THAT ARE STILL RECORDED IN THE STREETS AND IN THE MOTORWAYS, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD TERRIBLE SENSE OF DIRECTIONS AS THEY WENT THROUGH, IT FEELS LIKE A TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE.

WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, IS HELP CHANGE THE SOCIETY.

IT HAS MADE ME THE WRITER THAT I AM.

IT HAS MADE ME WANT TO TALK ABOUT ISSUES OF JUSTICE AND EQUALITY.

>> YOU HAVE DONE MUCH WRITING ABOUT THAT.

THIS PLAY HAS HAD GREAT REVIEWS ACROSS THE BOARD.

ARE YOU USED TO THAT?

>> I HAVE BEEN WRITING FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

GET THE BEST REVIEWS.

YOU OFTEN GET SOME GOOD ONES, AND SOME CRITICAL ONES.

THIS ONE AS YOU SAY, HAS BEEN ACROSS THE BOARD, PRETTY APPROVING.

IT IS A MARK OF THOSE PEOPLE, AND HOW RIVETING THEIR STORIES ARE.

IT IS THE GRACE THAT THEY HAVE PRESENTED.

WE HAVE MANAGED TO PUT ON STAGE, A WONDERFUL PLAY, WITH WONDERFUL DIRECTORS.

WE HAVE A REALLY STRONG SET OF ACTORS.

ALL OF US ARE WORKING TOGETHER.

THEY ARE SHOWING WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

I THINK IT MAKES FOR MESMERIZING THEATER.

>> FINALLY, SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO PERISHED, AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO MADE IT THEIR HOME, WERE REFUGEES AND ASYLUM SEEKERS.

RIGHT NOW, THEY ARE PUTTING 500 SEEKERS ONTO A BARGE, WHERE THEY SAY IT IS ONLY GOOD FOR 200.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY SCRAPPED VITAL FIRE SAFETY MEASURES FOR ASYLUM-SEEKERS AND COMBINATION.

THEY DESIGNED THEM TO HOLD AROUND 200.

THERE WAS A SOMEWHAT INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT THAT THIS BARGE COULD BE A FLOATING GRANT FELT.

IN OTHER WORDS, SOCIETY AND THE GOVERNMENT, HAVEN'T LEARNED.

>> I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T LEARNED.

I'M NOT SURE THAT SOCIETY HASN'T LEARNED.

I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY EVEN BACK THIS.

I DO THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO LEARN THAT YOU CANNOT TREAT PEOPLE AS IF THEY ARE NOT IMPORTANT.

THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT GROUNDBREAKING.

THIS MIGHT MAKE THIS ANOTHER TINDERBOX.

>> WHAT IS NEXT FOR YOU?

WHAT PIECE OF JUSTICE DO YOU NEED?

>> I'M GOING ON HOLIDAY.

I WILL THINK ABOUT WHAT IS IT HAS BEEN AN EMOTIONAL, ENGROSSING, EXPERIENCE.

I AM GLAD TO BE A PART OF IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE, AND YOUR EXPERIENCE AT THE NATIONAL THEATER.

THE WORDS OF SURVIVORS IS THERE UNTIL AUGUST 26th.

>>> THE POWER OF LOVE AND COMMUNITY AS WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT IN THE FACE OF TRAGEDY, CAN NEVER BE UNDERESTIMATED.

OUR NEXT GUEST, IS EXPLORING THIS HOPE AND AMENITY IN HIS NOVEL.

JAMES McBRIDE, ONE OF PRESIDENT OBAMA AND OPRAH'S RECOMMENDED AUTHORS.

HE HAS NOT RELEASED THE HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON, TO DISCUSS HOW ONE LOVE TRIUMPHS OVER EVIL.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE SAID IN THE PAST, THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE NOVEL.

LET ME READ YOU THE BEAUTIFUL ROLLING ACTION OF YOUR NOVEL.

THERE WAS AN OLD DUDE WHO LIVED ON THE SITE OF THE OLD SYNAGOGUE.

THIS WAS ON CHICKEN HILL, IN THE TOWN OF POTTSTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA.

THEY FOUND THE SKELETON AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OLD WELL OFF OF THE STREET.

THE OLD HOUSE WAS THE FIRST PLACE THEY WENT TO.

TELL US ABOUT THE SENTENCE.

WHY DID YOU USE IT TO SET UP THIS COMPLEX, BUT BEAUTIFUL NOVEL?

>> THE SENTENCE REALLY CAME AT LUCY'S I WROTE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK.

IT WAS ESSENTIALLY DONE.

I'M ALWAYS BIG ON THESE FIRST SENTENCES.

WHEN THEY WROTE TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD, WHEN HE WAS 12, MY BROTHER, JIM, BROKE HIS ARM.

EDGAR ALLAN POE, TELLTALE DEATH OF THAT GREAT AGONY.

THE FIRST SENTENCE IS VERY IMPACTFUL.

THE READER HAS TO DECIDE THAT THEY ARE IN THE LIBRARY.

THEY HAD TO DECIDE WHETHER THE STORY IS GOING TO BE ENOUGH TO DRAW THEM IN.

THE BOOK BEGINS AND PUSHES INTO A GREAT DEAL OF JEWISH LIFE DURING THAT PERIOD.

MANY PEOPLE DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

I WANTED TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THAT AS WELL.

IT JUST SEEMED LIKE A GOOD PLACE TO START.

YOU HAVE THE CONFLICT THAT BEGAN RIGHT THERE.

>> IT WAS A CONFLICT THAT INVOLVED MANY STRANDS OF COMMUNITY.

THIS INCLUDED THE BLACKS AND THE , ALL GOING THROUGH THAT.

YOU HAD A BLACK FATHER.

YOU HAD A WHITE MOTHER, YOU FOUND OUT WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGER, WAS ORTHODOX JEWISH, AND CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY.

>> A LOT.

I WAS INTERESTED IN JEWS, IN EARLIEST 20th CENTURY AMERICA.

I WENT TO SUFFOLK, VIRGINIA.

I RESEARCHED THE TOWN WHERE MY MOTHER GREW UP.

MY MOTHER'S FAMILY, THEY WERE ORTHODOX JEWISH.

THEY HAD A GROCERY STORE IN THE JEWISH SECTION OF TOWN.

I RECALL INTERVIEWING A LOT OF THE RESIDENTS FROM THAT TOWN.

I REMEMBERED HER FAMILY, MY PARENTS, AND HER GRANDMOTHER IN PARTICULAR.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE BUSINESS OF HOW MUCH ANTI-SEMITISM EXISTED IN THE SOUTH DURING THAT TIME.

I WAS A YOUNG MAN AT THE TIME.

I DID NOT BELIEVE IT.

I FOUND IT TO BE INCREDIBLE.

I COULDN'T SEE WHAT IT WAS.

AS I HAVE GROWN OLDER, I COME TO UNDERSTAND HOW DIFFICULT THE JOURNEY WAS.

I COME TO UNDERSTAND THAT ANTI- SEMITISM, IT NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY.

>> WE HAD A GREAT CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, JONAH.

I ASSUME IT IS PRETTY MUCH BASED ON YOUR GRANDMOTHER?

>> PRETTY MUCH.

SHE INSPIRED THAT.

MY GRANDMOTHER, LIVED IN THE SOUTH.

THE HUSBAND THAT SHE HAD DID NOT REALLY LOVE HER.

SHE DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF LOVE IN HER LIFE.

>> SHE SPOKE YIDDISH?

>> OH YES, SHE SPOKE YIDDISH.

MY GRANDMOTHER, WHO I NEVER MET, LIVED A VERY DIFFICULT LIFE.

SHE WAS BORN IN POLAND.

SHE CAME HERE AS A YOUNG MOTHER WITH MY MOTHER, AND MY UNCLE.

>> IN THE BOOK, IT WAS SOMEWHAT THAT WAY, RIGHT?

>> SHE WAS HAPPY.

SHE HAD A HUSBAND WHO LOVED HER.

SHE WAS ABLE TO ACCEPT ELEMENTS OF AMERICAN LIFE THAT MY GRANDMOTHER EVER GET TO EXPERIENCE.

HAD NOT AN OUNCE OF BITTERNESS OR SHAME.

I THINK THAT WAS HER SENTENCE.

YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE THEY WERE AMERICAN.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT.

>> I DON'T WANT TO INSULT PEOPLE WHO ARE JEWISH.

MY GRANDMOTHER, [ INAUDIBLE ].

I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

NOT JEWISH PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD.

IN THIS CASE, BEING AN AMERICAN, WAS NOT A GREENHORN.

MY MOTHER USED TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE WAS CONSIDERED GREENHORN.

SHE WAS NEW TO AMERICA.

SHE HAD NOT BEEN HERE.

SOME OF THE JEWS IN MY MOTHER'S LIFE WHO HAD BEEN HERE, HAD NOT AGREED UPON THEM.

THEY HAD SEPARATED SOME OF THE OLD WORLD WAYS.

THEY HAD ACCEPTED SOME OF THE NEW WORLD WAYS.

AT MOST, SHE HAD NOT ADOPTED THEM.

>> THERE IS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK.

I THINK THAT MEANS MESSENGER FROM GOD.

YOU HAVE THEM SAY TO THEM IN THE BOOK, WE ARE INTEGRATED INTO A BURNING HOUSE.

WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT THE BURNING HOUSE?

>> I AM CALLING HIM MALACHI.

HE DID NOT LIKE AMERICA.

HE WAS A VERY ORTHODOX JEWISH PERSON.

HE COULD NOT ACCEPT THE WAYS OF AMERICA.

HE FELT LIKE JEWISH PEOPLE FROM THE NEW COUNTRY, COMING TO AMERICA, ADOPTING AMERICAN WAYS, LEAVING BEHIND THE YIDDISH LANGUAGE, AND SO FORTH, MATERIALISM AND GREED, WOULD ONLY LEAD TO SUFFERING.

HE LEAVES.

THAT IS WHO I MET.

HE HAPPENS TO HER THAT WHEN HE WAS LOOKING AT A GROUP OF BLACK WORKERS.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT IT.

IT WAS THE INTEGRATION, AND AMERICAN SOCIETY.

>> YOU SAY THAT IN THE BOOKS.

YOU HAVE THIS NEW BOOK.

IT SHOWS THE COMPLEXITY OF BLACK AND JEWISH RELATIONS.

OVER THE PAST FEW CENTURIES, HAS BEEN COMPLEX.

YOU MAKE IT SEEM LIKE IT CAN WORK WHEN YOU THROW TOGETHER.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WHEN LOUIS ARMSTRONG DIED, HIS MUSIC WENT AROUND THE WORLD.

REMEMBER LEADING THE LOUIS ARMSTRONG STORY.

HE NEVER FORGOT THE KINDNESS OF THIS JEWISH FAMILY THAT HE WORKED FOR WHEN HE WAS A KID IN NEW ORLEANS.

THAT STAYED WITH HIM.

IN MY OPINION, THE KINDS THAT THEY SHOWED HIM, THEY CAME OUT IN THE MUSIC THAT WENT AROUND THE WORLD.

IT IS REALLY SIMPLE.

IF YOU DECIDE THAT THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO, I REMEMBER WHO I WORKED FOR.

THEY WERE COOL.

I HAD TO MAKE IT.

MY MUSIC IS ABOUT WHATEVER.

HE UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS IMPORTANT.

TO THE END OF HIS LIFE, HE WAS ACCESSIBLE TO ALL PEOPLE.

>> WHAT WAS INTERESTING, IS THAT THEY GREW UP IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD.

WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD.

ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT?

>> THE ANSWER TO THAT, IS THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN MORE DIFFICULT.

WHEN INTEGRATION WAS HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS, AND YOU START SEPARATING THE RICH FROM THE POOR, NO MATTER WHAT COLOR THEY ARE, THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU ARE CREATING, IS A COMMUNITY WHERE CREATIVITY IS DEAD.

PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT, COMING TOGETHER.

THEY REALIZE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM, ARE THE DIESEL FUEL, OR THE ELECTRICITY, THAT POWERS THE MOTOR.

IF YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH, RAISING RIGHT, YOUR RESPECT IS DIFFERENCES, AND CELEBRATING THEIR OWN AS YOU FEEL LIKE IT.

THIS IS GREAT, ABOUT OUR CREATION FROM THESE IMPULSES.

IT COMES FROM COMMUNITY.

IT IS REALLY ABOUT A COMMUNITY.

WHEN YOU ARE REALLY TRYING TO WORRY ABOUT, IF MY NEIGHBOR MAKES A MISTAKE WITH ME, ONE OF US IS BIG ENOUGH TO SAY THAT WE MADE A MISTAKE.

WE GO.

IF YOU ARE IN HER WORLD, THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T EXIST.

IT IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION.

THIS IS NOT THE PLACE THAT WE NEED TO FUNCTION CORRECTLY.

THE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE NO LONGER LIKE THE ONES OF CHICKEN [ BLEEP ].

PEOPLE ARE THROWN TOGETHER.

>> THERE IS A LOT MORE INTEGRATION THAN PEOPLE REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO.

IN SOME WAYS, WE ARE NOT REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THE YOUNG PEOPLE.

SOME OF IT IS OUR FAULT, AND NOT THE FAULT OF THE INTERNET.

IT DOES HAPPEN.

HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE TAKES PLACE IN THE 30s AND 40s.

THE STORY IS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 30s AND 40s.

WE ARE NOT HEARING THOSE STORIES.

WE HEAR THEM OCCASIONALLY WHEN SOMEONE COMES UP WITH A BOOK, OR A FIRST-PERSON NARRATIVE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

MY MOTHER'S WORDS ABOUT WHAT HER LIFE WAS IN THIS SMALL, JEWISH TOWN, HAS THOSE STORIES HAPPENING.

WE JUST WANT DOCUMENTING THEM.

>> TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU DO HISTORICAL RESEARCH?

I KNOW YOU LOOK AT THE STORY ABOUT YOUR MOTHER.

DO YOU TRY TO BE A RESEARCHER WHEN YOU WRITE A NOVEL?

>> OH YES.

MY BACKGROUND WAS AS A JOURNALIST.

MOST OF HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE DID NOT TAKE LONG.

IT TOOK MAYBE 15 YEARS TO RESEARCH.

I STARTED RESEARCHING THIS BOOK IN 2008.

I ALWAYS WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE CAMP FOR DISABLED CHILDREN BUT I WORKED AT.

IT DID NOT WORK OUT.

INSTEAD, IT BECAME THIS BOOK.

I SPENT YEARS WORSE FOR WEAR, RESEARCHING IT.

A LOT OF LIBRARIES AND HISTORICAL SOCIETIES, HAVE DIFFERENT INTERVIEWS.

THEY HAVE THE REAL MEAT OF THE STORY.

YOU ONLY USE 10%, WHEN YOU COME UP WITH THAT MOST OF THE TIME.

>> YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT DURING YOUR COLLEGE SUMMERS, HE WORKED AT THE VARIETY CLUB CAMP FOR HANDICAPPED CHILDREN?

FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS A DEAF CHILD IN THE BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT CAMP.

THAT SEEMS IMPORTANT TO THIS NOVEL.

>> THEY REALLY CAME FROM THE VARIETY CLUB EXPERIENCE.

A DODO IS A DEAF CHILD THAT COMPLETELY LOSES HEARING AS A RESULT OF AN ACCIDENT.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL ANYMORE BECAUSE HE CAN'T BLACK CHILD IN THE 1930s.

THIS IS IN PENNSYLVANIA.

HIS UNCLE AND AUNT WHO WERE TAKING CARE OF HIM, TAKE HIM TO HER, AND ASKED THEM TO HIDE HIM FROM THE STATE, BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO PUT HIM IN A MENTAL INSTITUTION.

THAT IS WHERE THE CONFLICT PUSHES THE BOOK, AND THE NARRATIVE ALONG.

IN REAL LIFE, WHEN I WAS WORKING AT THE CAMP FOR HANDICAP OF DISABLED CHILDREN, OR SO-CALLED DISABLED CHILDREN, I MET MANY KIDS LIKE HIM.

IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE, AND ALL WALKS OF DISABLED LIFE, WHEELCHAIRS, CRUTCHES, CEREBRAL PALSY, EVERYTHING.

IT WAS RUN BY A MAN THAT WAS INSPIRATIONAL.

HE WAS AN INSPIRATIONAL DIRECTOR OF THE CAMP.

I ENDED UP WRITING ABOUT THIS TOWN.

>> WHY CAN HE WRITE A BOOK ABOUT CAMP?

WHAT WAS SO HARD?

>> EVERY CHAPTER THAT I WROTE, SOUNDED LIKE A CAMP BOOK.

A LOT OF KIDS GET UP.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT IT WAS.

IT WAS NOT REALLY LIKE THAT.

IT WAS REALLY ABOUT EQUALITY.

THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE.

THEY WERE THE CHILDREN AND THE TEACHERS.

IT WAS A DIFFERENT TRUCE.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT HAPPENED.

WE ARE ALL OVERWORKED, AND UNDERPAID HIS CHILDREN, THEY HAD NO BARRIERS.

THE CHILDREN WERE WHITE, BLACK, JEWISH, CATHOLIC, LATIN, THEY HAD NO BARRIERS.

I COULD NOT WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT.

IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO SHOW HOW LOVE WORKS AMONGST THIS CHILDREN BASED CAMP.

>> EXPLAINED THAT.

>> THEY NEED TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER.

THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO.

THEY HAVE NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS TO ME.

THEY HAVE JUST LIVED IT.

>> THIS IS A CONCEPT.

IT ALMOST SEEMS TO BE THE MISSION OF YOUR NOVEL.

THIS INCLUDES YOUR LATEST NOVEL.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> THAT WAS GOD'S PURPOSE FOR THE BOOK.

I WANT PEOPLE TO LOVE EACH OTHER.

I DO WANT TO SAY WE SHOULD LOVE EACH OTHER.

YOU GET OUT THE WAY OF THE STORY.

YOU LET THE PEOPLE IN THE CHARACTERS HEAL THE WORLD.

YOU LET THEM SHOW WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

WHEN YOU SHOW YOU WHAT IS POSSIBLE, YOU ARE NOT TELLING THEM TO DO IT.

THEY ARE SHOWING THEMSELVES I MISS THEM TALK.

I MISS HEARING THEM GET AWAY WITH THEIR FRIEND.

I MISS THOSE PEOPLE.

PEOPLE I LIKE, EVEN IF I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH WHAT THEY SAID ALL THE TIME, THAT IS IT.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THIS BOOK ENDING?

YOU ARE WORRIED THAT YOURS CAN BE HORRIBLE SUNDAY?

>> LET THEM BE IN THE BOOK.

IF THEY BEEN IT, MORE PEOPLE COME TO IT.

YOU CAN STOP REAL FREEDOM.

THEY CAN SAY ALL THEY WANT.

AT SOME POINT, THE HATE ENGINE RUNS OUT OF DIESEL FUEL.

I AM NOT SCARED OF ANY OF THAT.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

THE TRUTH IS, IT TAKES A LOT OF ENGINE TO RUN THE HATE MACHINE THAT IS PUSHING AGAINST BOOKS.

ALL YOU NEED IS ONE LIBRARY AND TO PULL THE BOOK OUT, AND SLIP IT TO SOMEONE.

YOU CAN BELIEVE ME, THEY ARE SLIPPING BOOKS AROUND.

IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT HEROES, THOSE ARE THE REAL HEROES.

I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT.

I DON'T LIKE IT.

IF THIS IS WHAT IT IS, THEN LET IT WAGE.

IN THE LONG RUN, THESE BOOKS WILL FIND A PLACE.

YOU AND I ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.

EVEN THOUGH LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IT, WE KNOW WHAT THE BATTLE IS.

IF YOU HAVE A CANCER, BUT THEY COME OUT.

WE NEED THESE BOOKS.

THESE BOOKS NEED TO BE IN PLACE.

WE WILL FIND A WAY TO PUT THEM WHERE THEY BELONG.

IF I AM ON THE BOOKLIST, GOOD.

IT IS ONLY GOING TO MAKE MORE PEOPLE COME TO IT.

I WANT TO BE ON THE SIDE.

PUT MY NAME IN ALL CAPITALIZATION LETTERS.

IT IS TIME TO START BEING NOT MEEK ABOUT THIS.

>> I APPRECIATE YOU.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, SINEAD O'CONNOR, ALWAYS CALLED IT AS IT WAS.

THOUSANDS OF FANS LINED THE STREETS ON IRIS COAST.

SHE LIVED THERE FOR 15 YEARS FOR A FINAL FAREWELL FROM A SINGER TO AN ACTIVIST.

WE WERE LOOKING AT ANOTHER ALBUM, NOTHING COMPARES TO YOU.

FANS SAYING THAT TODAY.

>> [ MUSIC ] >> LOOK AT THAT CROWD.

LATER, SHE MADE HEADLINES FOR RIPPING UP A PHOTO OF THE POPE ON SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE.

BIDDING FAREWELL TODAY, SOME OF HER FANS, CARRIED ON HER SPIRIT OF ACTIVISM.

WEAVING PRIDE FLIGHTS, AND PROTESTING POLITICAL ISSUES.

THEY WERE ATTENDED BY THE IRISH PRESIDENT AND PRIME MINISTER.

THIS APPEARED ON A HILLSIDE.

IRELAND LOVES THEM.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

PBS.ORG/TRAN01.

AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.