>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": WE'RE TAKING A TOUR OF THE EMBATTLED EAST COAST GOVERNORS, STARTING DOWN SOUTH WITH ANTI-MASK POSTER CHILD RON DeSANTIS IN FLORIDA.

THEN HEADING TO NEW YORK, WHERE ANDREW CUOMO IS FACING MORE PRESSURE BY THE DAY OVER THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S FINDINGS THAT HE SEXUALLY HARASSED MULTIPLE WOMEN.

AND, FINALLY, WE'LL FINISH UP HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHERE, THANKFULLY, WE'RE NOWHERE NEAR AS BAD OFF.

BUT CHARLIE BAKER IS FACING PLENTY OF QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS CURRENT COVID POLICIES, NOT TO MENTION HIS FUTURE IN OFFICE.

THEN, LATER, "THE NEW YORKER'S" JELANI COBB JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK, "THE ESSENTIAL KERNER COMMISSION REPORT," FULL OF THE STILL-VERY-RELEVANT FINDINGS FROM MORE THAN FIVE DECADES AGO ABOUT THE SYSTEMS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT SET UP AND PERPETUATE RACIAL INEQUITY AND THE VIOLENCE THAT RESULTS.

♪♪ >> Braude: THE PENTAGON IS ADDING ITSELF TO THE LIST OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT WILL REQUIRE VACCINES, ACCORDING TO "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS," AND THE HEAD OF THE C.D.C.

IS WARNING OF THOUSANDS OF BREAKTHROUGH COVID INFECTIONS IN THE COMING MONTHS.

BUT AT LEAST ONE STATE GOVERNOR IS APPARENTLY HELL-BENT ON MAKING IT EASIER THAN EVER FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.

THAT WOULD BE RON DeSANTIS OF FLORIDA, A STATE THAT ACCOUNTED FOR NEARLY ONE-FIFTH OF NEW CASES REPORTED YESTERDAY AND 15% OF NEW DEATHS, AND WHICH KEEPS BREAKING ITS OWN RECORD FOR MOST PATIENTS HOSPITALIZED, NOW AROUND 13,000.

THAT'S NEARLY A QUARTER OF COVID HOSPITALIZATIONS IN THE COUNTRY.

AND YET DeSANTIS IS DETERMINED TO BLOCK JUST ABOUT ANY MEASURE THAT MIGHT HELP GET THIS VIRUS UNDER CONTROL, BANNING BUSINESSES AND GOVERNMENT ENTITIES FROM REQUIRING PROOF OF VACCINES AND MASK MANDATES IN SCHOOL.

A JUDGE RECENTLY BLOCKED THE FORMER, AT LEAST FOR NOW, AND A GROUP OF PARENTS HAS FILED A LAWSUIT ABOUT THE LATTER.

BUT AS A BACKUP OPTION, DeSANTIS' ADMINISTRATION IS ALSO OFFERING SCHOOL VOUCHERS FOR FAMILIES WHO FEEL ENFORCEMENT OF MASK MANDATES CONSTITUTE "HARASSMENT."

HARASSMENT, KNOWN TO SOME BY ANOTHER WORD.

THEN, ABOUT 1,000 PLUS MILES UP THE EAST COAST, NEW YORK'S ANDREW CUOMO, WHO HAS NO APPARENT PLANS TO STEP DOWN AFTER A STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL INVESTIGATION FOUND HE SEXUALLY HARASSED MULTIPLE WOMEN -- SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AT LEAST ONE -- VIOLATING STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS ALONG THE WAY.

HIS TOP AIDE, AND APPARENT ENFORCER, JUST QUIT.

A CRIMINAL COMPLAINT HAS SINCE BEEN FILED AGAINST HIM, AND NOW ONE OF HIS ACCUSERS IS SPEAKING OUT PUBLICLY, ALL OF WHICH WE'LL GET TO IN A FEW MINUTES.

ALONG WITH THE FUTURE OF ANOTHER GOVERNOR JUST A BIT FURTHER NORTH, CHARLIE BAKER, WHO STILL HASN'T ANNOUNCED WHETHER HE PLANS TO RUN FOR AN UNPRECEDENTED FOURTH TERM.

IF HE DOES JUMP IN, IT LOOKS LIKE THE TRUMP MACHINE MAY BE READY TO GEAR UP AGAINST HIM IN MASSACHUSETTS.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT IT ALL ARE "THE BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST JOAN VENNOCHI AND FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE JESSE MERMELL.

>> Braude: JESSE, JOAN, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> HI, JIM.

>> NICE TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: JOAN -- NICE TO SEE YOU.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT DeSANTIS' COVID ACTIONS BORDER ON HOMICIDAL.

WE HAVE AN ARKANSAS GOVERNOR WHO SAYS HE REGRETS LE DID HE DID A MASK MANDATE BAN, AND A REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM LOUISIANA SAYING HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH DeSANTIS ON THIS.

IS THERE ONLY ONE PERSON WHO CAN BEHAVE IN TRUMPIAN FASHION AND GET AWAY WITH IT, AND THAT'S DONALD TRUMP?

>> TALK ABOUT ROLLING THE DICE, AND THIS IS SORT OF BETTING THAT KIDS WITHOUT MASKS IN SCHOOL WON'T DIE.

I AGREE WITH YOU, IT DOES SEEM HOMICIDAL.

AND AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE SURGE, AND IF, YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW, PUBLIC HEALTH-WISE HOW IT TURNS OUT.

IT IS A HUGE GAMBLE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU WERE JUST IN FLORIDA, JESSE, DID I READ THAT -- >> I GOT BACK LAST NIGHT, YES.

>> Braude: A RECENT POLL SHOWED THAT CHARLIE CRISP, FORMER GOVERNOR, IS IN A VIRTUAL DEAD HEAT WITH DeSANTIS.

HAS HE HAD HIS 15 MINUTES OF FAME, OR IS THIS JUST PREMATURE, THE REPORTS OF HIS DEMISE, THAT IS?

>> JIM, I PROMISED MYSELF, WHEN TALKING ABOUT GOVERNOR DeSANTIS, I WOULD NOT SWEAR ON YOUR TELEVISION PROGRAM, AND I'M GOING TO DO MY BEST TO LIVE UP TO THAT.

MY PARENTS LIVE IN FLORIDA, AND I JUST SPENT FIVE DAYS THERE.

EVERY MORNING I BRING IN THE PAPER, AND MY FATHER WOULD READ THE HEADLINE EVERY DAY, FLORIDA BREAKS RECORD, MOST CASES, NEXT DAY, FLORIDA BREAKS RECORD, MOST CASES.

DeSANTIS HAS DECIDED HE CARES MORE ABOUT SUCKING UP TO DONALD TRUMP THAN WHETHER OR NOT MY PARENTS LIVE OR DIE.

IT IS HONESTLY THAT SIMPLE.

I HOPE THAT ANYONE WHO CARES ABOUT PEOPLE IN FLORIDA, WHETHER THEY'RE RELATED TO THEM OR NOT, AGING PARENTS, PEOPLE WITH VULNERABILITIES, PEOPLE WITH CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 12 WHO HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED YET, WHO HE IS PUTTING AT RISK EVERY SINGLE DAY, WILL FIND A WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT MAN IS NOT RE-ELECTED GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA.

IT IS, TO EVERYONE'S POINT HERE, HOMICIDAL.

IT IS PERSONAL TO ME, AND IT IS PERSONAL TO SO MANY PEOPLE, AND HE HAS TO GO.

IT IS BEYOND DANGEROUS.

>> Braude: LET'S MOVE A LITTLE NORTH, IF YOU TWO WILL GO WITH ME.

BRITTANY COMMISSO WAS EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT NUMBER ONE, UNIDENTIFIED IN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT IN NEW YORK.

SHE HAS ACCUSED CUOMO OF GROPING HER TWICE, FIRST WHILE THEY WERE TAKING A SELFIE AT AN EVENT IN 2019, AND AGAIN AT THE GOVERNOR'S MANSION.

SHE TOLD CBS NEWS THIS MORNING THAT IT STARTED WITH WHAT SHE DESCRIBED AS A SEXUALLY AGGRESSIVE HUG.

HERE IS THE REST.

>> THAT'S WHEN HE PUT HIS HAND UP MY BLOUSE AND CUPPED MY BREAST OVER MY BRA.

WHEN I STOPPED IT, HE JUST PULLED AWAY AND WALKED AWAY.

I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING.

I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING THIS WHOLE TIME.

PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

>> Braude: JOAN, IN A RECENT COLUMN, YOU SUMMARIZED HIS DEFENSE AS "I'M AN OVER 60 ITALIAN, AMERICAN MALE."

AREN'T YOU HEARTENED BY THE FACT THAT VIRTUALLY NOBODY IS BUYING IT?

>> HE QUICKLY MOVED ON TO THAT TO THE CLASSIC THE WOMAN IS LYING.

THE IDEA THAT WHAT HE WAS DOING WHEN HE TRIED TO EXPLAIN IT AS CONVEYING WARMTH WAS RIDICULOUS TO BEGIN WITH.

AND NOW THAT WE HAVE MORE WOMEN COMING FORWARD AND SORT OF JUST SPEAKING AND TELLING THEIR STORIES, IT'S NOTHING ABOUT CONVEYING WARMTH.

IT IS ABOUT POWER; IT'S ABOUT INTIMIDATION; IT'S ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND NOW SEXUAL ASSAULT.

I DON'T SEE SHOW HE HANGS IN, BUT WE SEEM TO BE IN AN ERA OF NO SHAME, AND HE'LL HANG IN AS LONG AS THE NEW YORK ASSEMBLY LET'S HIM.

>> Braude: WHY IS HE STILL THERE?

IS IT PURELY BECAUSE THE ASSEMBLY HASN'T IMPEACHED HIM, JESSE?

>> I THINK AT THIS POINT, IT IS SIMPLY AA AA MATTER OF TIME AND PROCESS.

I WOULD LIKE THAT THINK THAT THIS MAN WOULD COME TO HIS SENSES AND PUT THE PEOPLE OF NEW YORK ABOVE HIMSELF AND SIMPLY RESIGN, BUT I WOULDN'T PUT MONEY ON THAT HAPPENING.

THERE IS ANOTHER PIECE THAT IS OFFENSIVE IN HIS PROPAGANDA VIDEO, WHERE HE SAID, WORKING IN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, IT IS A TOUGH PLACE, IT IS DEMANDING, IT IS HIGH STAKES.

I HAVE TO CALL B.S.

ON THAT.

I WAS DIRECTION GOVERNOR DURING THE MARATHON GOVERNOR -- TAKEING A HIGH-STAKES, HIGH-PRESSURE JOB, DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE SIGNING AWAY YOUR RIGHTS TO NOT BE SEXUALLY HARASSED AND WORK IN A TOXIC ENVIRONMENT.

AS JOAN POINTED OUT, PEOPLE ARE SEEING THROUGH IT, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE KEEP SEEING THROUGH IT BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, SEXUAL ABUSERS WILL CONTINUE TO DO THIS UNTIL WE CONTINUE TO CALL THEM OUT AND BELIEVE WOMEN.

>> Braude: JESSE -- >> MAY I SPEAK?

>> Braude: OF COURSE YOU CAN, YES.

>> I WAS JUST SAYING HE DOES SEEM TO BE FOLLOWING A MODEL THAT WE HAVE BECOME QUITE FAMILIAR WITH, WHETHER IT IS THE DONALD TRUMP DENY, DENY, DENY MODEL, WHICH HAS TRICKLED DOWN TO THE GOVERNOR'S LEVEL WITH RALPH NORTHAM IN VIRGINIA, WHO STARTED FIRST APOLOGIZING FOR A YEAR-BOOK PAGE THAT HAD A PICTURE IN BLACK FACE, AND THEN SAYING NO, IT WASN'T HIM, AND HANGING IN AND RESISTING ALL OF THE CALLS TO RESIGN.

THAT IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THESE ACCUSATIONS, BUT THERE IS KIND OF A MODEL NOW THAT POLITICIANS ARE FOLLOWING.

>> Braude: YES, BUT, JESSE, IF I MAY INTERRUPT, I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS GOING TO RESIGN, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER GUY WHO IS ACCUSED OF WORSE THINGS, NOT TO MINIMIZE WHAT CUOMO HAS DONE, BUT WHO IS BELOVED BY 75 MILLION PEOPLE.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE DESPERATE RESPONSE?

>> THAT IS THE BIG QUESTION: HOW DOES TRUMP HOLD ON TO HIS POPULARITY?

THERE SEEMS TO BE A BREAKDOWN BETWEEN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR IF A REPORT CAME OUT LIKE THAT ABOUT A C.E.O.

OR RADIO HOST OR TV HOST, THAT PERSON, I THINK, WOULD BE GONE.

CUOMO IS HANGING IN.

HE SOMEHOW THINKS THAT HE HAS ENOUGH OF THE GOODWILL OF THE PEOPLE OAR HE OR HE IS JUST SO ARROGANT, HE IS NOT GOING TO GO UNTIL THEY ACTUALLY IMPEACH HIM AND MAKE HIM GO.

>> THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY THE PARTIES REACT TO THIS.

CERTAINLY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WITH AN INSTANCE LIKE THIS, DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP IS MUCH MORE WILLING TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR.

YOU SEE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CALLING FOR GOVERNOR CUOMO'S RESIGNATION.

I'M NOT SAYING OUR PARTY IS PERFECT, BUT WE'RE HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE IN A WAY THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO.

DONALD TRUMP, EXAMPLE NUMBER ONE.

>> Braude: WELL -- >> THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PARTY AND THE PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT TRUMP DID, HE FOUND A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ESTABLISHMENT AND THE PEOPLE.

>> Braude: JESSE, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR JOB FOR DEVAL PATRICK.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT OCCUPANT.

IS CHARLIE BAKER RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION, JESSE, IN YOUR ESTIMATION?

>> IF YOU HAD ASKED ME A MONTH OR TWO AGO, I WOULD HAVE SAID NO.

BUT I MIGHT BE CHANGING MY MIND.

>> Braude: WHY?

>> I'M SEEING SIGNS BETWEEN A FUNDRAISER HE WAS GOING TO HAVE, WHICH WOUND UP NOT HAPPENING, AND JUST WAYS IN WHICH THE TEA LEAVES LOOK TO ME OF HOW HE IS APPEARING IN THE MEDIA AND EVENTS THAT HE IS GOING TO OVER THE SUMMER MAKES ME THINK THAT THIS ISN'T A DONE DEAL; HE MIGHT BE THINKING ABOUT IT.

BUT HE IS FACING A REAL PRIMARY CHALLENGE FROM GEOFF DIEHL, AND COVID NUMBERS SEEM TO BE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF GEOFF DIEHL, LET ME PLAY A SOUND BYTE FROM JIM LIONS.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS A FAN OF GOVERNOR BAKER'S.

>> DID HE INDICATE, HE MIGHT, IF BAKER SEEKS RE-ELECTION, THAT HE MIGHT CAMPAIGN FOR HIS OPPONENT, I.E.

GEOFF DIEHL?

>> HE WOULD CERTAINLY LIKE TO SEE AN EXCITING RACE UP HERE.

I THINK THAT HAS HE HAS DONE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IT IS SOMETHING THAT MAYBE HE WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT.

>> Braude: SO, JOAN, WOULD A TRUMP ENDORSEMENT OF GEOFF DIEHL SEAL THE NOMINATION FOR CHARLIE BAKER IN MASSACHUSETTS?

>> IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, YES.

HE CAN USE THAT AS AN AD.

BUT HE DOES HAVE THIS CRAZY PRIMARY CHALLENGE FROM THE RIGHT, WHERE HE IS ACTUALLY RUNNING AGAINST TRUMP SUPPORTERS.

AND I ACTUALLY THINK THAT SOME OF HIS RECENT POSITIONS, OR LACK THEREOF, CONCERNING COVID IS HIM LOOKING TO THE RIGHT AND NOT WANTING TO BE THE PERSON THAT MANDATES MASKS IN SCHOOLS OR CALLS FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYEES TO BE GETTING VACCINATED.

HE IS WORRIED -- HE IS LOOKING TO HIS RIGHT AND HE IS A LITTLE BIT WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

BUT I DO AGREE WITH JESSE.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT HE WAS A MAYBE.

NOW I THINK HE IS TRENDING YES.

THE FUNDRAISER IS ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.

IF YOU LOOK AT HIS SCHEDULE, HE IS OUT THERE AT DIFFERENT PLACES, WHERE HE REALLY LOOKS LIKE HE IS CONNECTING -- TRYING TO CONNECT IN A CAMPAIGN-TYPE SETTING.

BUT COVID IS THE BIG QUESTION MARK.

I MEAN, THE NUMBERS ARE TROUBLING.

AND HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, AND HE IS GOING TO GET THE CREDIT AND THE BLAME.

>> Braude: JESSE, I ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS.

DO YOU BUY JOAN'S NOTION THAT BAKER IS FOLLOWING THE POLITICS AND NOT THE SCIENCE -- >> I ABSOLUTELY DO.

WE HAVE SEEN HIM STICK HIS FINGER IN THERE AND TEST THE WINDS IN MASSACHUSETTS TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

WITH THE FAILED ROLL CALL -- >> Braude: WE HAVE ONE OF THE HIGHEST VACCINATION RATES IN THE COUNTRY -- YOU KNOW THAT?

>> RIGHT NOW, BUT AFTER MASSIVE FAILURES.

THE SOLDIERS' HOME, AND HIM DELAYING, AND NOT BEING CLEAR OF WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH MASKS IN SCHOOLS, I THINK THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR CHARLIE BAKER, WHO FAILED TO LEAD AROUND COVID IN THE WAY MASSACHUSETTS DEMANDS.

IF HE RUNS FOR RE-ELECTION, HE WILL HEAR ABOUT THIS AT EVERY TURN.

>> Braude: THANK YOU BOTH.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Braude: WE'VE BEEN TOLD TIME AND AGAIN THAT THOSE WHO DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT, AND AS MY NEXT GUEST SUGGESTS, THOSE WHO DO LEARN, REPEAT IT ANY WAY.

AND THAT'S THE CYCLE JOURNALIST AND PROFESSOR JELANI COBB IS HOPING TO END BY REINTRODUCING A 1968 LANDMARK STUDY ON RACE, INEQUITY AND POLICE VIOLENCE, WHICH IS JUST AS RELEVANT TODAY AS IT WAS 53 YEARS AGO.

THE KERNER COMMISSION WAS TASKED BY PRESIDENT LYNDON B. JOHNSON WITH DETERMINING THE ROOT CAUSES OF DEADLY UPRISINGS SPARKED BY THE RACIAL UNREST IN NEWARK, DETROIT, AND OTHER CITIES DURING THE SUMMER OF 1967.

AND THE REPORT DID NOT WASTE TIME WITH EQUIVOCATION, WARNING: "OUR NATION IS MOVING TOWARD TWO SOCIETIES, ONE BLACK, ONE WHITE, SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL."

AS COBB WRITES IN HIS INTRODUCTION, THE REPORT DETERMINED: "POLICE ARE NOT MERELY THE SPARK, THE REPORT TELLS US, THEY ARE PART OF THE BROADER SET OF INSTITUTIONAL RELATIONSHIPS THAT ENFORCE AND RECREATE RACIAL INEQUALITY.

THE PROBLEM IS NEVER SIMPLY THE INCIDENT BUT THE FACTS AND FACTORS THAT MADE SUCH AN INCIDENT POSSIBLE, EVEN PREDICTABLE."

THE COMMISSION'S MANY RECOMMENDATIONS WERE IGNORED, INCLUDING BY THE PRESIDENT WHO COMMISSIONED THEM, WITH THE FINDINGS RELEASED JUST WEEKS BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. AND MERE MONTHS BEFORE RICHARD NIXON WAS ELECTED ON HIS "LAW AND ORDER" CAMPAIGN.

SO TODAY, AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF PROTESTS AND UPRISINGS FOLLOWING THE KILLINGS OF GEORGE FLOYD, AHMAUD ARBERY, BREONNA TAYLOR, FREDDIE GRAY, TAMIR RICE, TRAYVON MARTIN, AND SO MANY MORE BLACK AMERICANS, AND WITH MANY REPUBLICANS STILL EMBRACING NIXON'S MANTRA, COBB HAS PUBLISHED KEY FINDINGS FROM THE DECADES-OLD EFFORT IN "THE ESSENTIAL KERNER COMMISSION REPORT."

JELANI COBB, STAFF WRITER WITH "THE NEW YORKER" AND PROFESSOR AT THE COLUMBIA JOURNALISM SCHOOL, JOINS ME NOW.

HE'S ALSO THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF THE THREE-PART HBO DOCUMENTARY: "OBAMA: IN PURSUIT OF A MORE PERFECT UNION."

>> Braude: WELCOME, AND I'M EMBARRASSED TO SAY HOW MUCH I LEARNED FROM YOUR BOOK.

>> OH, THANK YOU.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THE MAJOR RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE KERNER COMMISSION -- AND I SHOULD SAY WHOSE MEMBERSHIP INCLUDED THE ONE BLACK UNITED STATES SENATOR AT THE TIME, ED BROOK FROM MASSACHUSETTS -- >> RIGHT.

>> Braude: -- WENTUALLY WENT WELL BEYOND POLICING.

CAN YOU SUMMARIZE THE AREAS THAT THE RECOMMENDATION TOUCHED UPON?

>> SURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

WHEN WE LOOK AT KERNER AND ITS RELEVANCE, THE MOST OBVIOUS POINT OF IT IS ESTABLISHING THAT THE INCIDENT THAT HAPPENS IS NOT THE SOUL GENESIS OF THE PROBLEM.

AND SO THEY LOOKED AT HOUSING.

NOT SIMPLY POLICE RELATIONS.

THEY LOOKED AT HOUSING.

THEY LOOKED AT EMPLOYMENT, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY UNEMPLOYMENT.

THEY LOOKED AT HEALTH CARE AND THE ABSENCE OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

THEY LOOKED AT THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION, OR THE ABSENCE THEREOF, IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

AND THEY ALSO LOOKED, INTERESTING ENOUGH, AT MEDIA.

AND A VERY PRECIOUS EXAMINATION OF THE ROLE THAT MEDIA PLAYED AND THE FRUSTRATION THAT PEOPLE HAD IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

IT WAS A REALLY EXHAUSTIVE EXAMINATION OF THE PROBLEMS SURROUNDING THESE, AS THEY CALLED THEM IN A VERY ANT ANTISEPTIC LANGUAGE -- >> Braude: AND WHEN THEY ADDRESSED POLICE BEHAVIOR, OBVIOUSLY THE WORD DEFUNDING POLICE WAS NOT PART OF IT, BUT SHIFTING RESOURCES TO NON-TRADITIONAL POLICE FUNCTIONS THAT IS BEING DEBATED TODAY WAS ALSO PART OF THE KERNER WORK, WAS IT NOT?

>> THAT'S SO FASCINATING, YES.

BECAUSE WE'VE HEARD THE SLOGAN "DEFUND THE POLICE," WHICH I THINK WAS TENTATIVE TO CONJURE IDEAS THAT WERE A LITTLE BIT DISTINCT FROM WHAT PEOPLE WERE ACTUALLY ADVOCATING.

BUT WHEN YOU GO BACK TO 1968 AND THIS REPORT, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY SAY IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A PROBLEM.

AND THEY CALLED IT THE GHETTO, WHICH IS NOT A WORD THEY WOULD USE NOW.

BUT THEY SAID THERE IS A PROBLEM IN THE GHETTO IN THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE CALLED FOR A WHOLE ARRAY OF SOCIAL CONCERNS THAT ACTUALLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW.

AND WHAT THIS DOES IS CREATE JUST SIMPLY MORE POINTS OF CONTACT BETWEEN THE AVERAGE CIVILIAN AND THE AVERAGE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITH THE POTENTIAL OF SOMETHING GOING WRONG EACH TIME, AND SOMETHING POTENTIALLY GOING DISASTEROUSLY WRONG EACH TIME.

THEY SAID THERE NEEDED TO BE OTHER SOCIAL SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS OR OUTLETS THAT COULD ADDRESS CONCERN THAT DIDN'T REQUIRE SOMEONE WITH A GUN TO SHOW UP.

AND IN A VERY SUCCINCT WAY, THAT WE ENCAPSULATING THE IDEA THAT HAS COME TO BE KNOWN AS DEFUND THE POLICE NOW.

EXCUSE THE SIRENS.

YOU CAN TELL I'M ACTUALLY HERE IN NEW YORK.

[LAUGHTER] >> Braude: THAT IS FINE.

WE HAVE THOSE HERE, TOO, BY THE WAY.

USING THE TERM THAT IS USED THERE, AS YOU SAY, NOT IN USAGE NOW, "GHETTO IERAS WHAT"GHETTO," WHAT DO THEY SAY ABOUT WHITE AMERICA'S RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THE CONDITIONS THAT BLACK AMERICA WAS FORCED TO LIVE IN WHAT THEY CALL THE GHETTO?

>> IT IS ASTOUNDING.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT GOVERNMENT REPORTS, WHICH TEND TO BE VERY BLAND, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY KIND OF BURY THEIR CONCLUSIONS IN AMBIVALENT LANGUAGE.

BUT THE KERNER REPORT WAS NOTHING LIKE THAT.

THEY SAY VERY BLUNTLY THAT THE GHETTO IS A CREATION OF WHITE AMERICA, AND THAT WHAT WHITE PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT THE NEGRO CAN NEVER FORGET IS THAT THE GHETTO EXISTS ONLY BECAUSE THEY CONDONE IT AND ALLOW IT TO.

IT IS A KIND OF MORAL INDICTMENT THAT YOU WOULDN'T ANTICIPATE.

CERTAINLY L.B.J.

DID NOT ANTICIPATE SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHEN HE COMMISSIONED THIS GROUP TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND EXPLAINS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE REPORT WAS SO UNPOPULAR WHEN IT CAME OUT, AT LEAST IN GOVERNMENT AND OFFICIAL CHANNELS IT WAS.

>> Braude: DID YOU -- WHEN YOU WORKED AS INTIMATELY WITH THE DOCUMENT AS YOU DID, AND MAYBE EVEN BEFORE, BECAUSE I KNOW YOU'RE STARRING AS WELL, DID YOU GET THE FEELINGS THAT IT WAS LAYING OUT A FORMULA FOR REPARATIONS?

AGAIN, NOT USING THE TERM, BUT THAT'S WHAT I CAME AWAY WITH AFTER READING YOUR EDITS IN THE BOOK.

IS THAT A FAIR ASSESSMENT?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT YOU COULD SAY THAT.

THEY WOULDN'T SAY THAT SPECIFICALLY, BUT WHAT THEY TALK ABOUT IS REGRET.

>> Braude: OF COURSE.

>> THEY SAY THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING DONE TO MAKE WHOLE THESE COMMUNISTS COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE SUFFERED AS A RESULT OF DISCRIMINATION.

AND, YEAH, THAT'S KIND OF THE BRIEF THAT THEY PUT FORWARD.

AND, AS YOU MENTIONED, OF COURSE, THIS COULDN'T HAVE COME AT A WORSE TIME POLITICALLY SPEAKING.

THE COUNTRY WAS ABOUT TO LURCH IN A VERY DIFFERENT DIRECTION, AND KIND OF IRONY THAT AS WE'RE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION THAT THERE ARE SO MANY POLICE SIRENS GOING BY.

BUT I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN 19 1968AND THE ELECTION OF RICHARD NIXON, AND THE SUCCESS OF THE LAW AND ORDER APPEALS, THIS REPORT WAS REALLY KIND OF ORPHANED AND WAS LEFT TO BE KIND OF A FINGER POINTING IN A DIRECTION THAT WE NEVER PURSUED.

BUT, YEAH, THAT IS IN THE VAIN OF THE CONVERSATION WE'RE HAVING NOW ABOUT REPARATIONS.

>> Braude: IN THE SPIRIT OF IF YOU CHANGE THE NAME AND PLACES AND DATES, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW.

HERE IS TANAHASI COATES IN YOUR DOCUMENT.

>> OBAMA, I THINK, GETS A LOT OF FLACK FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PRESIDENCY, FIRST BLACK PRESIDENCY, ONLY BEING SYMBOLIC.

BUT I THINK PEOPLE UNDERRATE THE VALUE OF SYMBOLS.

I THINK THE WAY OBAMA CONDUCTED HIMSELF IN TERMS OF SPECIFICALLY HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH BLACK CULTURE, COMMUNICATED A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SYMBOL TO OTHER PEOPLE.

I THINK ONE OF THE GREAT MISTAKES WAS WE FORGOT THAT.

WE FORGOT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE WATCHING.

>> Braude: AND SOME OF THOSE WATCHING WERE UNHAPPY ABOUT THE CHANGING DEMOGRAPHICS, WHICH IS SORT OF ANNALAGOUS, WHICH THEN CAME RICHARD NIXON TO ADDRESS THE ANGER THAT WHITES FELT AFTER THE KERNER REPORT, NO?

>> SURE.

THERE WAS POLITICS BACKLASH.

EVERYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON IN 1967, 1968, BUT IT WAS REALLY THE DRIVE AND THE SUCCESS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT THAT PEOPLE WERE PUSHING BACK AGAINST.

AND WE SAW THAT IN NIXON, AND THE NIXONIAN TILT OF THE POLITICS.

IT'S CLOSE ENOUGH.

WE SEE PARALLELS IN WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016.

OBAMA, JUST IN WHAT HE EMBODIED, REPRESENTED A PARTICULAR KIND OF SUCCESS, A PARTICULAR KIND OF PROGRESS BASED UPON THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, AND DONALD TRUMP WAS THE ANTITHESIS OF THAT.

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT, BUT GOING BACK TO SANTIANA FOR A MOMENT, ANY REASON TO THINK, JELANI, THAT WE WON'T STILL BE REPEATING HISTORY 53 YEARS FROM NOW, AS WE REPEATED IT 53 YEARS AFTER THE KERNER COMMISSION?

>> I THINK WE VERY WELL COULD.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT EVERY BIT OF PROGRESS WE HAVE MADE IN SOCIETY, AND WE HAVE MADE SOME PROGRESS, HAS OCCURRED BECAUSE PEOPLE EVENTUALLY GOT THE POINT.

AND IT BECOMES A MATTER OF SIMPLY REPEATING AND REITERATING AND CONTINUING UNTIL WE ACTUALLY GET OVER THE HURTLE AND ARE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD IN SOME WAY.

>> Braude: LET ME TELL YOU, THE ESSENTIAL KERNER COMMISSIONER REPORT IS ESSENTIAL.

THANK YOU FOR DOING IT, AND THANKS FOR THE TUTORIAL.

IT REALLY IS HUGE.

THANK YOU.

BE WELL.

>> YOU, TOO.

>> Braude: THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS "THE ESSENTIAL KERNER COMMISSION REPORT," AND IT'S OUT NOW IN PAPERBACK.

AND THE DOCUMENTARY IS "OBAMA: IN PURSUIT OF A MORE PERFECT UNION," STREAMING NOW IN THREE PARTS ON HBO MAX.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT BUT COME BACK TOMORROW WHEN WE LOOK AT THE FINDINGS OF A NEW STUDY ON JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE ONE OR MORE BITS OF VACCINE MISINFORMATION AND THE RESULTS ARE PAINFUL.

PLUS, FORMER RHODE ISLAND STATE REPRESENTATIVE MOIRA WALSH ON WHY SHE'S SPEAKING OUT LOUDER THAN EVER, THROUGH PODCASTING, AFTER HER OWN PARTY PRIMARIED HER OUT OF HER SEAT.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org