>>> TO THE SUBURBS WHERE WHITE AMERICANS GREW UP.

ONCE IT WAS THE QUINTESSENTIAL IMAGE OF AMERICAN LIFE.

THESE NEIGHBORHOODS NOW REVEAL SYSTEMICDISPARITY.

WITH NEW BLACK AND BROWN RESIDENTS STRUGGLING TO DEAL WITH THE DECLINING CONDITIONS LEFT BY WHITE OCCUPANTS WHO MOVED ON AND UP.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, BENJAMIN HAROLD LOOKS AT FIVE SUBURBS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

HE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT FAMILIES ARE EXPERIENCING IN THESE COMMUNITIES.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU ARE AN EDUCATION REPORTER.

WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SUBURBS?

WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF IT?

>> WE HAVE, AS AMERICANS, HAVE INVESTED SO MANY OF OUR HOPES, OUR DREAMS, OUR VISIONS OF THE FUTURE IN SUBURBIA.

A LOT OF THAT REVOLVES AROUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THIS IDEA OF THE PLACE WHERE WE FEEL LIKE WE CAN GO NOT ONLY FOR THE GOOD LIFE FOR OURSELVES BUT TO GIVE OUR CHILDREN A BETTER FUTURE.

THAT'S A REALLY POWERFUL THING.

THAT IS CENTERED AROUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THAT WAS THE OPENING WINDOW INTO GOING INTO THE FIVE COMMUNITIES THAT I FOCUS ON IN THE BOOK.

>> WHAT WAS THE QUESTION YOU WERE TRYING TO ANSWER?

>> IT COMES BACK TO MY ORIGIN STORY.

I HAD GROWN UP IN A SUBURB EAST OF PITTSBURGH CALLED PENN HILLS.

IT WAS A PLACE THAT WORKED VERY WELL FOR MY MIDDLE CLASS WHITE FAMILY.

LARGELY IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

I GOT A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES.

IT'S NOT HARD TO TRACE MY CAREER AS A JOURNALIST BACK TO MY EXPERIENCE IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN PENN HILLS.

WHEN I WAS IN THIRD GRADE, I WAS THE KID WOULD USED TO GET BORED AND I WOULD DRAW ON MY DESK.

MY TEACHER INSTEAD OF PUNISHING ME, SHE BROUGHT IN HER TYPEWRITER FROM HOME AND SAID, BEN, WHEN YOU GET BORED, WORK ON THIS.

I STARTED A CLASS NEWSPAPER.

THAT WAS MY FIRST JOURNALISM JOB.

YOU CAN SEE HOW THINGS PROGRESSED FROM THERE.

WHEN I LEFT IN 1994, I REALLY DIDN'T LOOK BACK.

I THOUGHT THE REAL WORLD WAS HAPPENING SOMEWHERE ELSE.

I SPENT MUCH OF MY CAREER AS AN EDUCATION JOURNALIST COVERING BIG CITIES.

IN 2015 AND 2016, ALL OF THE HEADLINES STARTED COMING OUT OF PENN HILLS.

THIS COMMUNITY AND SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT WORKED SO WELL FOR MY WHITE FAMILY HAD RUN UP $172 MILLION IN DEBT.

THEY WERE LAYING OFF TEACHERS.

THEY WERE SLASHING PROGRAMS AND SERVICES.

PROPERTY TAXES WERE GOING UP.

HOME VALUES WERE STAGNATING.

YOU CAN SEE HOW THIS DREAM WAS ERODING ALMOST IN REAL TIME.

IT WAS OVERLAID WITH THIS DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFT.

THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS WERE 72% WHITE WHEN I GRADUATED.

BY THE TIME THIS BAD NEWS STARTED HAPPENING, IT WAS 63% BLACK.

IT MADE ME REALIZE, WAIT, ALL OF THESE OPPORTUNITIES AND BENEFITS THAT MY FAMILY AND ME PERSONALLY RECEIVED A GENERATION AGO WERE BEING PAID FOR BY THE FAMILIES WHO LIVE THERE NOW.

I WAS CURIOUS IF THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS HAPPENING JUST IN MY HOMETOWN OR IF IT WAS HAPPENING ELSEWHERE.

WHAT I LEARNED IS THIS IS A CYCLE COMMON IN SUBURBAN AREAS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

>> ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU QUOTE IN THE BOOK AND PEOPLE WRITING ABOUT THE BOOK HAVE BASICALLY LIKENED THIS TO A PONZI SCHEME.

IT'S A SHELL GAME.

SOMEBODY HAS TO BE THE SUCKER.

SOMEBODY IS GOING TO GET TAKEN.

TELL ME WHY YOU SAY THAT.

THEN WE WILL DIG INTO IT FURTHER.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK TWO THINGS TO REMEMBER ABOUT THE WAY THAT AMERICA BECAME A SUBBAN NATION.

MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES, LIKE MY HOMETOWN, GREW UP ALMOST OVERNIGHT.

YOU HAD FORMER FARMLAND CONVERTED INTO RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS.

YOU SAW THIS INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS, STREETS, SEWERS, PUBLIC SCHOOLS BEING BUILT ALMOST OVERNIGHT.

A LOT OF IT HEAVILY SUBSIDIZED BY STATE, LOCAL AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

WHAT THAT RESULTED IN -- MANY OF THE COMMUNITIES WERE RACIALLY RESTRICTIVE.

THERE WAS THIS GENEROUS SOCIAL CONTRACT.

WE GET CHEAP MORTGAGE LOANS, MASSIVE TAX BREAKS, NEW INFRASTRUCTURE, PUBLIC SCHOOLS WE CAN MAKE IN OUR OWN IMAGE.

ALL OF THESE BENEFITS THAT COME AND ARE MADE POSSIBLE BOTH BECAUSE OF THE SUBSIDIES ON THE FRONT END AND BECAUSE WE PUSH THE TRUE COSTS OF RENEWING AND REPAIRING AND MAINTAINING THOSE OFF INTO THE FUTURE.

THAT'S WHERE THE PONZI SCHEME ASPECT COMES IN.

I'M GOING TO GET MONEY FROM SOMEONE ELSE WHO WILL GET STUCK HOLDING THE BAG LATER.

IN PENN HILLS, THIS TOWN OUTSIDE OF PITTSBURGH, IF YOU LOOK NOW, THE FAMILIES WHO ARE LIVING IN THAT COMMUNITY NOW AND USING THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM NOW, INCLUDING BETHANY SMITH, A MOTHER WHO BOUGHT THE HOUSE THREE DOORS DOWN, ARE NOT ONLY GETTING THAT SAME BENEFIT -- GENEROUS SOCIAL CONTRACT MY FAMILY RECEIVED, BUT ARE ON THE HOOK FOR PAYING FOR THOSE OPPORTUNITIES WE ALREADY EXTRACTED.

THAT SHOWS UP IN SEWAGE BILLS, PROPERTY TAX RATES, HIGHER COST OF LIVING FOR LOWER SERVICES AND BENEFITS.

>> I WANT TO MENTION THAT THE NAMES OF PEOPLE YOU WROTE ABOUT ARE ACTUALLY PSEUDONYMS, EXCEPT FOR BETHANY SMITH.

WHERE DID THE IDEA OF THE SUBURBS COME FROM TO BEGIN WITH?

JUST THE IDEA OF THE SUBURBS IN AMERICA, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

HOW DID IT BECOME SOMETHING TO SORT OF ASPIRE TO?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK PART OF WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER WHEN WE LOOK AT THE CHALLENGING THAT SUBURBIA IS FACING NOW, HOW THEY GOT BUILT.

NOT JUST THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE POLICY BEHIND IT, BUT THE VISION AND THE DREAM.

THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS METHODOLOGY THAT THE SUBURBS ARE THE PLACE WHERE WE CAN GO TO ESCAPE OUR PROPERTIES, TO ESCAPE THE PAST, TO ESCAPE OUR RACIAL SINS AS A NATION, TO ESCAPE THE PEOPLE THAT WE WANT TO LEAVE BEHIND, WE DON'T WANT TO SHARE RESOURCES WITH, WE DON'T WANT TO SHARE TAX DOLLARS WITH AND SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WITH.

IT'S RACIALIZED FROM THE BEGINNING.

THE IDEA FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS ESSENTIALLY SUBSIDIZING, SETTING THEM UP TO BE EXCLUSIVE.

>> YOU DESCRIBE THIS AS A PERNICIOUS IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING.

WAS DID SO TERRIBLE THAT PEOPLE CAME BACK FROM FIGHTING WARS OVERSEAS AND WANTED SOME SPACE?

DOES IT START OUT AS A KIND OF RACIAL ESCAPE PROJECT?

>> YES.

THE SHORT ANSWER.

>> WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS YES.

>> THE IMPULSE TO WANT A NEW HOME WITH A NICE YARD ON A QUIET STREET WITH GOOD PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND NICE AMENITIES, THAT'S A COMMON DESIRE.

WHEN IT BECOMES AVAILABLE, IT MAKE PRESIDENT SENSE.

IT'S A VERY RATIONAL DECISION WE WANT THAT LIFESTYLE.

THERE'S A REASON TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE REORGANIZE THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT THEIR WAY INTO THOSE COMMUNITIES.

THE PROBLEM FROM THE BEGINNING, AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN, AS YOU DESCRIBE THIS RACIAL ESCAPE PROJECT.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW IS THAT WE ARE RUNNING UP AGAINST THE LIMITS OF THAT.

PART OF THIS DYNAMIC THAT I DESCRIBE IN SUBURBIA, WE THINK ABOUT WHITE FLIGHT OUT OF CITIES INTO SUBURBS.

THAT'S VERY TRUE.

WHAT WE HAVE MISSED AS A NATION IS THAT WE ARE SEEING WHITE FLIGHT OUT OF OLDER SUBURBS AS WELL.

>> YOUR ARGUMENT IS THE BILL IS COMING DUE.

WHY IS THAT?

>> IT'S TWO FACTORS.

ONE IS, WE LOSE SIGHT SOMETIMES OF HOW VAST THIS SUBURBANIZATION PROJECT WAS.

THERE WERE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF COMMUNITIES THAT WERE REALLY BUILT UP ALMOST OVERNIGHT IN THE TIME PERIOD RIGHT AFTER WORLD WAR II.

THIS WAS SOMETHING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS BECAUSE THERE WAS FEDERAL INVESTMENT.

PART OF WHAT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT THOSE COMMUNITIES WERE DESIGNED FOR ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE AT ONE STAGE OF LIFE WITH ONE GENERAL SET OF DREAMS AND AMBITIONS.

IT WORKED VERY WELL FOR THEM AT FIRST.

AS THOSE COMMUNITIES AGE, ALL OF THAT INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS REPAIR AT THE SAME TIME.

WE SEE ROADS, SEWERS, STREETS, SCHOOLS, THE SIDING ON YOUR HOUSE, THE ROOF, ALL OF THESE THINGS NEED REPAIR AT THE SAME TIME.

WHAT WE HAVE DONE AS ACENTIIZED PEOPLE TO LEAVE RATHER THAN IMPROVE AND GROW.

PART OF WHAT HAPPENS IS THESE COMMUNITIES -- EVERYTHING GETS OLD AT ONCE.

WE HAVE TO FIX THEM AT ONCE.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE REALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUNG WHITE FAMILIES AND A PARTICULAR KIND OF FAMILY.

THAT IS VERY BAKED INTO THE DESIGN AND THE SOCIAL FABRIC OF THE COMMUNITIES.

AS THAT CHANGES, AS THAT EVOLVES, AS DIFFERENT FAMILIES AND STRUCTURES COME IN, THE COMMUNITIES STRUGGLE TO RESPOND.

YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE HOUSING STOCK.

YOU CAN SEE IT IN THESE DAY-TO-DAY INTERACTIONS THAT END UP PRODUCING A LOT OF DISILLUSIONMENT THAT I FOUND WHEN I TALKED TO PARENTS.

>> WHY?

BECAUSE CHANGING -- WHY WOULD CHANGING DEMOGRAPHICS NECESSARILY LEAD TO THAT?

ARE THESE PEOPLE UNDERRESOURCED COMPARE COMPARED TO THE PEOPLE THEY LEFT?

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

>> THE KEY POINT IS WHERE WE KIND OF LOCATE THE PROBLEM.

WHAT I DO IN THE BOOK IS LOCATE THE PROBLEM -- WE SEE IT MOST CLEARLY IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

ONE OF THE FAMILIES I SPENT SEVERAL YEARS FOLLOWING WITH, THEY ARE THE ROBINSONS.

A MIDDLE CLASS PROFESSIONAL BLACK FAMILY IN THE SUBURBS OF ATLANTA.

WE HAVE ADVANCED DEGREES.

MOM IS WORKING ON A Ph.D..

THEY ARE INVESTED IN THEIR KIDS' EDUCATION.

THEY BOUGHT THE NICE HOUSE IN THE NICE NEIGHBORHOOD ATTACHED TO THE NICE SCHOOL.

FELT LIKE, OKAY, WE ARE BUYING INTO THIS DREAM.

WE ARE DOING WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.

IT WORKED OUT OKAY FOR A WHILE UNTIL THEIR OLDEST SON, A BLACK BOY NAMED COREY, STARTS MIDDLE SCHOOL.

THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, HIS PHYSICALITY, HIS PERSONALITY, HIS WAY OF COMMUNICATING, HIS -- THE WAY HE INTERACTS, THAT BECOMES A PROBLEM IN A WAY THAT STARTS GETTING PUNISHED DIRECTLY.

THE PARENTS, THEY ARE INVOLVED.

WE'RE GOING TO NIP THIS IN THE BUD.

WE WILL GO TALK TO THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, SAY WE WANT TO BE PARTNERS WITH YOU.

WE'RE IN THIS TOGETHER TO HOLD OUR SON ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE WRONG, MAKE SURE HE CAN IMPROVE, CORRECT IT AND MOVE ON.

WHAT HAPPENS IS WHEN THEY DECIDE TO GO TO THAT MEETING, THE MOTHER AND FATHER SAY -- THEY ARE INTENTIONAL.

THEY SAID, WE'RE GOING TO INVITE COREY'S GRANDPARENTS, HIS MINISTER, HIS COACH, HIS MENTOR AND SOME OF HIS ADULT FRIENDS.

FOR THEM, THE IDEA IS, WE'RE COMING TO SHOW YOU THAT WE ARE A GOOD FAMILY, THAT THERE'S A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR OUR CHILD AND THERE'S RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE THAT YOU CAN TAP INTO.

WHAT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM SAID IS, THOSE PEOPLE CAN'T COME INTO THE MEETING BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT YOUR FAMILY.

>> THEY ARE BASICALLY SAYING, WE ARE SCARED OF HIM.

>> YES.

>> THE BEHAVIOR THAT READS AS NORMAL MIDDLE SCHOOL KID BEHAVIOR TO HIS FAMILY AND HIS EXTENDED COMMUNITY READS TO THIS SCHOOL AS THREATENING, DANGEROUS AND TO BE CONTROLLED?

>> THAT'S SOMETHING THAT MOM STARTS SEEING IN HIS DISCIPLINE FILES,BULLY, AGGRESSIVE.

WHAT SHE STARTS TO REALIZE IS -- THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE.

THEY ARE IN THIS MEETING.

MOM SAYS, I SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

YOU ARE TRYING TO DOCUMENT MY CHILD TO DEATH SO YOU CAN SEND HIM OUT.

I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, BECAUSE I'M IN MANAGEMENT, TOO.

I HAVE DONE IT MYSELF.

SAY, SEE US FOR WHO WE ARE.

LIKE YOU ARE SAYING, RECOGNIZE THE GIFTS AND RESOURCES.

THERE'S THIS CONSTANT MISMATCH.

YOU SEE IT IN THE INTERACTIONS AND AT A SCHOOL BOARD LEVEL.

IN THAT COUNTY OUTSIDE OF ATLANTA, WAS 90% WHITE AS RECENTLY AS 1990.

NOW IT'S NEARLY THREE-FOURTHS MULTIRACIAL.

THE CHANGE IN LEADERSHIP OF THE SCHOOL DISTRICT CHANGED MORE SLOWLY.

WE ARE SEEING THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> I'M GOING BACK TO THE ANECDOTE YOU SPOKE OF AT THE BEGINNING.

YOU SAID YOU WERE DRAWING ON THE CLASSROOM FURNITURE AND THE TEACHER SAID, USE MY TYPEWRITER.

I'M THINKING ABOUT THE STORY YOU ARE TELLING ME.

IF THAT BOY HAD DRIVEN -- DRAWN ON FURNITURE, WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED?

>> HE GOT WRITTEN UP FOR EVERYTHING FROM TAPPING HIS PENCIL TOO LOUDLY ON THE DESK, SPENDING TOO LONG IN THE BATHROOM, SLAPPING A FRIEND IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD ON A DARE BECAUSE YOU ARE 14.

THAT'S A DETENTION.

IT STARTS TO ESCALATE.

PART OF WHAT IS SO ALARMING AND WHERE THE ROBINSON FAMILY REALLY HAD THIS RECKONING AS PARENTS THAT REFLECTS ON SUBURBAN DREAM WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, WE HAVE ORGANIZED OUR WHOLE LIVES, OUR EDUCATION, OUR CAREERS, OUR HOME, OUR FINANCES WHERE WE -- HOW WE ARE RAISING OUR CHILDREN AROUND ACCESS TO THIS DREAM IN SUBURBIA.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS IT'S KIND OF NOT WORKING.

IT'S NOT HAPPENING.

PART OF THE DISILLUSIONMENT THAT SO MANY FAMILIES ARE FEELING, ESPECIALLY SUBURBAN FAMILIES OF COLOR, IS WE HAVE DONE EVERYTHING RIGHT AND THERE'S STILL NO GOOD OPTIONS WHERE WE HAVE ACCESS TO ALL OF THESE OPPORTUNITY THAT SHOULD BE OURS, THAT THE COMMUNITY PROMISED, AND WHERE OUR CHILD IS NOT ONLY SAFE BUT IS RECOGNIZED, SEEN AND RESPECTED.

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

WE DON'T -- IT SEEMS LIKE WE DON'T HAVE AN INFRASTRUCTURE TO TALK ABOUT.

WHAT IS THE HOUSING DEPARTMENT -- THE FEDERAL HOUSING DEPARTMENT IS HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT.

IT'S NOT HOUSING AND EVERYBODY DEVELOPMENT OR HOUSING AND SUBURBAN DEVELOPMENT.

IT'S ALMOST AS IF WE HAVE THIS NOTION THAT THE WHOLE QUESTION OF RESOURCE BALANCE, RESOURCE ALLOCATION, IT'S AN URBAN ISSUE.

>> IT WAS REALLY FROM THE BEGINNING DEEPLY BAKED INTO THE OPERATIONS AND CULTURE OF PLACES TO DEFLECT SCRUTINY.

THEY WERE A BLAND PLACE WHERE PEOPLE RETREATED.

THAT IS -- IT'S DEEPLY ROOTED AND IT'S A PROBLEM.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE SO BAD AT TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SUBURBIA NOW.

WHAT I DID SEE WHEN I GOT TO KNOW THESE FAMILIES AND SPENT TIMES IN THE COMMUNITIES AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS IS THAT EVERY COMMUNITY THERE WERE PARENTS WORKING ON THESE ISSUES.

SOMETIMES THAT MIGHT BE, WE NEED TO GET THE DRESS CODE RIGHT AT THIS SCHOOL.

I'M NOT GOING TO LET MY KID GET IN TROUBLE FOR WEARING BRAIDS.

SOME PLACES IT MIGHT BE, WE NEED A SCHOOL BOARD THAT LOOKS LIKE US.

SOME PLACES IT MIGHT BE, WE NEED TO REPAIR THE SEWER SYSTEM.

THERE ARE CITIZENS AND PEOPLE IN SUBURBIA ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY PARENTS, WHO ARE WORKING ON THIS.

YOU ARE RIGHT, WE DON'T HAVE A LARGE AND NATIONAL NARRATIVE THAT ALLOWS US TO CONNECT THE DOTS AND SEE HOW MY STRUGGLE, MY WORK, MY FIGHT TO IMPROVE MY COMMUNITY IS CONNECTED TO YOURS.

THAT'S PART OF WHAT I HOPE THIS WILL DO IS SHINE A LIGHT ON NOT ONLY THE PROBLEMS, BUT THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE ALREADY DOING TO ADDRESS THEM AND HELP US CONNECT TO EACH OTHER.

WE REALLY DO HAVE A NATIONAL SHARED PROBLEM.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU SEE PLAYING OUT IN SCHOOL BOARDS AND PTA MEETINGS AND THESE CONFRONTATIONS OVER BOOKS AND CURRICULUM IS A PERSPECTIVE THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE THAT THEIR VERSION OF HISTORY, THEIR VERSION OF SOCIETY IS CORRECT.

THAT IS THE ONE THAT IS TO BE SUBSIDIZED.

DOES YOUR REPORTING INDICATE A WAY OUT THAT WAS, WHAT SEEMS TO BE A BINARY?

FRANKLY, A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT ON THE PART OF SOME THAT OTHER PEOPLE -- THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE.

>> PART OF WHAT HAPPENS FOR ME, WHEN I STARTED DOING THE RE-EXAMINATION OF MY OWN EXPERIENCE, MY FAMILY'S INVOLVEMENT IN THIS DYNAMIC, IT'S VERY PAINFUL.

A DIFFERENT SET OF CONVERSATIONS WITH MY FATHER.

HE TOLD ME AT ONE POINT EXPLAINING THE CONDITION HE LEFT THE HOUSE IN, I WASN'T INTERESTED IN BEING A GOOD COMMUNITY PERSON.

THAT WAS PART OF HOW I GREW UP.

PART I WHAT I HAD TO UNLEARN IN ORDER TO WRITE THE BOOK.

IT SHOWED UP MOST DIRECTLY IN MY RELATIONSHIP WITH BETHANY SMITH.

SHE FOUND HERSELF ALL OF A SUDDEN CONFRONTED NOT WITH THIS GENEROUS SOCIAL CONTRACT BUT WITH THE BURDENS LEFT BEHIND.

WHEN WE WOULD TALK ABOUT THIS, WE WOULD -- THE RELATIONSHIP EVOLVES.

WE WOULD TALK.

IT BECAME VERY PERSONAL.

SHE SAID EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO ME.

SHE SAID, I'M VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THIS, WITH THIS IDEA OF YOU AS A WHITE MAN COMING IN TO TELL THIS STORY AND TAKE IT AWAY AND TELL IT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSES.

SHE WAS RIGHT.

IT WAS A REPETITION OF THAT PATTERN.

ONCE I KNEW THAT PATTERN AND WHAT IT WAS, I WAS ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE ACCURACY OF WHAT SHE WAS SAYING.

WE RECONFIGURED THE WAY WE WORKED TOGETHER.

SHE ENDED UP WRITING THE EP EPILOGUE.

I LEARNED TO NOT ONLY SEE MY OWN EXPERIENCES IN A DIFFERENT WAY BY CONSIDERING THEM SIDE BY SIDE WITH OTHERS, MY OWN EXPERIENCES AS A WHITE MIDDLE CLASS SUBURBAN CHILD, BY COMPARING THEM WITH OTHERS, BUT ALSO BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DREAM ABOUT A COMMUNITY AND WHAT IT CAN BE.

THERE ARE WAYS TO HAVE A NOTION OF COMMUNITY THAT IS ABOUT INTERGENERATIONAL CONTRACT, THAT IS ABOUT MAKING SURE YOU LEAVE BEHIND SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD FOR WHO IS GOING TO FOLLOW.

THAT WAS -- IT'S NOT HOW I GREW UP.

I HAD TO UNLEARN A LOT OF WHAT I GREW UP WITH AND LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

WE DO THAT BY ALLOWING OURSELVES TO HEAR THESE CONVERSATIONS AND STORIES FROM OTHER PEOPLE.

NOT EVERYONE IS WILLING TO DO THAT.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE.

>> BENJAMIN, THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

IT WAS A PLEASURE.