>>> CHRISTOPHER NOLAN'S NUCLEAR THRILLER "OPPENHEIMER" STARRING CILLIAN MURPHY AND FLORENCE PUGH LANDS IN THEATERS FRIDAY.

IT IS ABOUT THE 1945 TRINITY TEST IN NEW MEXICO FOR THE WORLD'S FIRST NUCLEAR DEVICE WAS SUCCESSFULLY DETONATED.

>> WE ARE IN A RACE AGAINST THE NAZIS.

AND I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.

THE NAZIS HAVE A BOMB.

>> THEY HAVE A 12-MONTH HEAD START.

18.

>> HOW COULD YOU KNOW THAT?

>> WE HAVE GOT ONE HOPE.

ALL OF AMERICA'S TO SCIENTIFIC MIGHT AND INNOVATION CONNECTED HERE.

A SECRET LABORATORY.

KEEP EVERYONE THERE UNTIL IT'S DONE.

>> LET'S GO RECRUIT SOME SCIENTISTS.

>> THE FILM IS BASED ON THE PULITZER PRAISE WINNING WORK "AMERICAN PROMETHEUS" WRITTEN BY KAI BIRD AND MARTIN J. SHERWIN.

BIRD DISCUSSES THE TRIUMPH AND TRAGEDY OF ROBERT OPPENHEIMER AND THE IMACT OF HIS CREATION ON OUR MODERN WORLD WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU.

AND KAI BIRD, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

>> YOU AND OUR BELOVED LATE FRIEND MARTY WROTE "AMERICAN PROMETHEUS," THE EPIC PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING BIOGRAPHY OF J ROBERT OPPENHEIMER.

NOW IT'S THE MOST ANTICIPATED FILM.

YEAR, OPENING THIS WEEKEND.

TELL US FIRST, WHO WAS JAY ROBERT OPPENHEIMER?

>> HE WAS AN INCREDIBLY FASCINATING AMERICAN PHYSICIST WHO BROUGHT THE QUANTUM PHYSICS, THE NEW PHYSICS TO AMERICA IN THE 1920s BY FOUNDING THE PHYSICS DEPARTMENT IN BERKELEY, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA.

AND HE THEN BECAME -- HE WAS CHOSEN IN A VERY ODD CHOICE BY GENERAL LESLIE GROVES, THE HEAD OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT, TO BE THE SCIENTIFIC DIRECTOR OF LOS ALAMOS, THE SECRET CITY THEY BUILT IN THE DESERT OF NEW MEXICO TO BUILD THE GADGET, WHAT BECAME THE ATOMIC BOMB.

THEN HE, YOU KNOW, HIS ODYSSEY IS INCREDIBLE.

HE BECOMES AMERICA'S MOST FAMOUS SCIENTIST IN 1945 AS THE FATHER OF THE ATOMIC BOMB.

NINE YEARS LATER, HE IS BROUGHT DOWN IN THIS WITCH HUNT OF A KANGAROO COURT TRIAL IN 1954 AND PUBLICLY HUMILIATED AND BECOMES A NONENTITY.

ITS AN INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED STORY.

>> YOU MENTIONED GENERAL LESLIE GROVES TAPPING HIM TO RUN THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IN LOS ALAMOS.

INTERESTING SCENE IN THE BOOK, IN THE MOVIE, TOO, WITH MATT DAMON PLAYING -- WHO WAS THEN COLONEL LESLIE GROVES.

HE WAS ABOUT TO BE PROMOTED.

>> HE THINKS YOU HAVE INTEGRITY, BUT HE ALSO STRIKES ME AS A GUY WHO KNOWS MORE ABOUT SCIENCE THAN PEOPLE.

>> AND HERE YOU ARE.

YOU DON'T TAKE MUCH TRUST.

>> I DON'T TAKE ANYTHING ON TRUST.

TFRMT WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A NOBEL PRIZE.

>> WHY WEREN'T YOU A GENERAL?

>> THEY WILL MAKE ME ONE FOR THIS.

>> PERHAPS I WILL HAVE THE SAME LUCK.

>> SO HOW WOULD YOU PROCEED?

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TURNING THEORY INTO A PRACTICAL WEAPON SYSTEM FASTER THAN THE NAZIS.

>> YOU HAVE A 12 MONTH HEAD START.

>> 18.

>> HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THAT?

>> JET SEN SAYS, I DON'T TAKE ANYTHING ON TRUST, HOW IN THE WORLD DID HE PICK J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER TO RUN THE MANHATTAN PROJECT?

>> IT WAS THE MOST UNLIKELY CHOICE.

OPPENHEIMER AND HE WERE LIKE OIL AND WATER, PARTICULARLY POLITICALLY SPEAKING.

OP BY WAS A MAN OF THE LEFT.

GENERAL GROVES WAS CONSERVATIVE, GRUFF, HARD WORKING.PIE WAS A MAN OF THE LEFT.

GENERAL GROVES WAS CONSERVATIVE, GRUFF, HARD WORKING.

DETERMINED GENERAL WHO WANTED TO BUILD THIS WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, AND OPPENHEIMER IS A NERDY PHYSICIST.

BUT GROSS SEES IN OPPENHEIMER THAT HE IS A SYNTHESIZER, THAT HE IS SOMEONE WHO CAN ACTUALLY SPEAK IN PLAIN ENGLISH.

HE IS A POLYMATH.

HE IS NOT ONLY A PHYSICIST, HE LOVES FRENCH POETRY AND THE NOVELS OF ERNEST HEMINGWAY.

HE CAN EXPLAIN THINGS.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT GROVES APPRECIATES AND HE CAN SEE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING IN OPPENHEIMER THAT IS BOTH CHARISMATIC IN A YOUNG MAN FILLED WITH AMBITION AND IT TURNS OUT TO BE A BRILLIANT CHOICE.

>> YOU DESCRIBE HOW HE BECOMES A PUBLIC POLICY FIGURE, TALKING ABOUT THE NEED FOR ARMS CONTROL.

THERE IS A GREAT SCENE IN THE MOVIE WITH ONE OF MY FAVORITE HISTORICAL CHARACTERS, NEYLES BORE, THE GREAT PHYSICIST WHO UNDERSTANDS AT UP FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND HE SAYS, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ONCE IT'S ALL OVER.

LET'S SHOW THAT CLIP.

>> I AM NOT HERE TO HELP, BROTHER.

>> I KNEW YOU COULD DO THIS WITHOUT ME.

>> WHY DID YOU COME?

>> TO TALK ABOUT AFTER.

THE POWER YOU ARE ABOUT TO REVEAL WILL FOREVER OUTLIVE THE NAZIS.

AND THE WORLD IS NOT PREPARED, YOU COULD LIFT THE STONE WITHOUT BEING READY FOR THE SNAKE THAT'S REVEALED.

>> WE HAVE TO MAKE THE POLITICIANS UNDERSTAND, THIS ISN'T A NEW WEAPON.

IT'S A NEW WORLD.

I WILL BE OUT THERE DOING WHAT I CAN, BUT YOU, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN PROMETHEUS.

A MAN WHO GAVE THEM THE POWER TO DESTROY THEMSELVES.

AND THEY WILL RESPECT THAT.

>> YOU LOVE THE PHRASE HE USES, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN PROMETHEUS.

OF COURSE, THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK.

TELL ME, WHY BEING A PROMETHEUS DOES THAT TURN HIM INTO SOMEBODY WHO FIGHTS IN PUBLIC POLICY FRONT.

>> WELL, PROMETHEUS, OF COURSE, IS THE GREEK GOD WHO GIVES FIRE TO MAN, STEALING IT FROM ZEUS, GIVING IT TO MAN, AND THEN ZEUS PUNISHES HIM FOR DOING THIS.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO OPPENHEIMER.

HE GAVE MANKIND ATOMIC FIRE AND THEN NINE YEARS LATER HE WAS PUBLICLY HUMILIATED AND SORT OF TARRED AND FEATHERED IN THIS KANGAROO COURT BECAUSE OF HIS POLICY DIFFERENCES WITH THE DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT.

>> SOMETHING POIGNANT AT THE END.

MOVIE, SORRY ABOUT THE SPOILER ALERT, BUT AFTER THEY TEST IT AND IT WORKS, OPPENHEIMER STARTS TO THINK, MAYBE WE WERE RIGHT.

WE SET OURSELVES ON A PATH TO DESTROY THE WORLD.

WHAT DID HE MEAN BY THAT?

>> WELL, HE MEANS THAT HE HAS GIVEN US ATOMIC FIRE.

AND THE STORY IS NOT FINISHED, YOU KNOW.

WILL HUMANITY SURVIVE THE ATOMIC AGE?

WE ARE NOT SURE.

WE STILL HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

WE ARE STILL COPING WITH LIVING WITH THE BOMB.

JUST LOOK AT THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

MR. PUTIN HAS THREATENED TO USE TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

SO IT'S A QUESTION MARK.

I THINK THE STONE IS SO VERY RELEVANT TO OUR TIMES.

>> IT'S PARTLY RELEVANT TO OUR TIMES BECAUSE WE KEEP UNLEASHING NEW TECHNOLOGIES AND WE DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM QUITE AS MUCH AS OPPENHEIMER AND EINSTEIN WORRIED ABOUT HAVING UNLEASHED THE BOMB.

FOR EXAMPLE, THIS COMES JUST AS WE'RE DEBATING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

DID YOU THINK THERE WAS SOME CONNECTION TO SORT OF HOW WE ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH OUR TECHNOLOGIES?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE ARE A SOCIETY DRENCHED IN SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

AND YET, WE DON'T SEEM TO HAVE MANY SCIENTIFIC GURUS AROUND.

SCIENTISTS WHO ARE PUBLIC INTELLECTUALS, WHO CAN GET UP AND EXPLAIN IN PLAIN ENGLISH THE CHOICES, THE POLICY CHOICES.

WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO INTEGRATE THESE TECHNOLOGIES, PARTICULARLY SOMETHING AS REVOLUTIONARY AS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, INTO A HUMANE SOCIETY.

AND I THINK PART OF THE OPPENHEIMER STORY, AND IT COMES ACROSS IN THE FILM BRILLIANTLY, IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO OPPENHEIMER IN 1954, THE PUBLIC HUMILIATION OF AMERICA'S GREATEST SCIENTIST, SENT AN UNFORTUNATE MESSAGE TO ALL SCIENTISTS OF BEWARE OF BECOMING A PUBLIC INLEXTUAL.

BEWARE OF GETTING OFF YOUR NARROW LANE, TALKING ABOUT POLITICS OR POLICY BECAUSE YOU COULD BE TARRED AND FEATHERED LIKE ROBERT OPPENHEIMER WAS IN 1954.

>> LET'S EXPLAIN WHAT THAT PROBLEM WAS IN TERMS OF THE LOYALTY AND THE SECURITY CLEARANCE.

IT WAS BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE VERY AFRAID THAT THE RUSSIANS HAD SUDDENLY GOTTEN THE BOMB AND ACTUALLY CORRECTLY -- THEY HAD GOTTEN IT FROM A SPY AT LOS ALAMOS.

NOT SOMEBODY OPPENHEIMER HIRED.

BUT THIS WAS A REAL SCARE AND POSSIBILITY.

OPPENHEIMER HAD BEEN -- HIS BROTHER HAD BEEN IN THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

HE HAD BEEN GENERALLY SYMPATHETIC, NEVER A MEMBER.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> IT'S COMPLICATED.

THEY USED THE FACT THAT HE HAD BEEN A MAN OF THE LEFT, HE HAD BEEN SORT OF PINKO BUT NOT RED.

HE HAD BEEN SYMPATHETIC TO SOME OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY'S ACTIVITIES LIKE DESEGREGATION OF THE PUBLIC SWIMMING POOL IN BERKELEY AND RAISING MONEY TO SEND AN AMBULANCE TO THE SPANISH REPUBLIC CAUSE DURING THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR, AND SO THEY USED THE FACT THAT HE HAD GUCHB MONEY TO THE COMMUNIST PARTY, ALTHOUGH HE NEVER JOINED IT HIMSELF, TO BRING HIM DOWN IN 1954.

BUT THE REAL CONCERN WAS NOT THAT HE WAS A SECURITY RISK OR EVEN A SPY.

THERE IS NO REAL EVIDENCE OF THAT.

BUT THE REAL CONCERN WAS THAT HERE THE FATHER OF THE ATOMIC BOMB BEGINNING IN 1945, JUST MONTHS AFTER HIROSHIMA, HAD BEGUN SPEAKING OUT AGAINST RELIANCE ON THESE WEAPONS.

SPECIFICALLY, AFTER 1949 WHEN THE RUSSIANS ACQUIRED AN ATOMIC BOMB, HE SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUD GENERAL BOMB, THE SUPER BOMB.

THIS WAS A THREAT TO THE BUDGETS OF THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, TO THE BUDGET OF THE AIR FORCE AND THE NAVY WHO WANTED TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON THESE WEAPONS.

SO THE FATHER OF THE ATOMIC BOMB, OPPENHEIMER, WAS BECOMING A THREAT TO THEIR BUDGETS, AND THIS WAS THE REAL MOTIVATION TO BRING HIM DOWN.

HIS POLICY DIFFERENCES WITH THE NATIONAL SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT.

>> ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING SCENES, BOTH IN YOUR BOOK AND IN THE MOVIE, AND I'LL SAY IN THE MOVIE IT'S EXACTLY THE WAY IT IS IN YOUR BOOK, IS WHEN OPPENHEIMER DECIDES HE HAS TO GO SEE PRESIDENT HARRY TRUMAN.

AND HE SAYS, I'VE GOT BLOOD ON MY HANDS.

OPPENHEIMER SAYS.

AND TRUMAN GETS MAD.

EXPLAIN THAT TO US AND WHAT TRUMAN ENDS UP SAYING.

>> WELL, OPPENHEIMER WENT INTO THE OVAL OFFICE WITH AN AGENDA.

HE WANTED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS ONE MOMENT, HIS MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT, TO EXPLAIN HIS WORRIES ABOUT THE BOMB AND HOW TO CONTAIN IT.

HE WANTED TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL CONTROL OR COMING TO SOME KIND OF ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENT WITH THE RUSSIANS AND NOT TO HAVE AN ARMS RACE.

AND BEFORE HE COULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT REALLY, TRUMAN INTERRUPTS HIM AND SAYS, SO, DR. OPPENHEIMER, WHEN DO YOU THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE GOING TO GET THIS WEAPON?

AND OPPENHEIMER REPLIES, WELL, I AM NOT SURE, BUT IN A FEW YEARS.

AND TRUMAN AGAIN INTERRUPTS AND SAYS, NO, I KNOW, NEVER.

THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO GET IT.

AND AT THAT MOMENT OPPENHEIMER UNDERSTANDS THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE NO SECRETS.

THAT THE PHYSICS IS KNOWN BY EVERYONE AND THAT IT'S A SIMPLE ENGINEERING PROBLEM AND THAT ANY COUNTRY, HOWEVER POOR, WITH WHATEVER RESOURCES, CAN INDEED PILED THESE WEAPONS AND OF COURSE THE RUSSIANS ARE GOING TO GET IT.

YOU KNOW, THEY DID HAVE AM SOME SPIES AT LOS ALAMOS WHO HELPED THEM ALONG EARLY ON.

BUT AT SOME POINT THE RUSSIANS ARE WERE GOING TO DEVELOP THESE WEAPONS.

SO OUT OF FRUSTRATION OPPENHEIMER TURNS TO HARRY TRUMAN AND SAYS, SIR, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I HAVE BLOOND MY HANDS.

AND OF COURSE THIS IS THE EXACTLY THE WRONG THING TO TELL HARRY TRUMAN, THE MAN WHO MADE THE DECISION TO DROP TWO SUCH WEAPONS ON TO JAPANESE CITIES.

AND SEW BECOMES VERY OFFENDED.

THE MEETING ENDS ABRUPTLY, AND AS OPPENHEIMER WALKS OUT, AND AS YOU SEE THIS IN FILM, AS IT'S PORTRAYED FROM THE BOOK, TRUMAN SAYS TO ONE OF HIS AIDES, I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE THAT CRY BABY SCIENTIST EVER AGAIN, AND HE NEVER DID.

>> TELL ME ABOUT OPPENHEIMER'S CONFLICTED FEELINGS ON WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD HAVE DROPPED THE BOMB AND WHETHER OR NOT YOUR FEELINGS -- I READ ABOUT YOU OVER THE YEARS, DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE, WHETHER DROPPING THE BOMB BY HARRY TRUMAN, BUT ALSO ALL THE SCIENTISTS THERE, WAS THE RIGHT DECISION.

>> SO, OPPENHEIMER, HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SELECT THE TARGET OF HIROSHIMA OR NAGASAKI, BUT HE KNEW THAT THE WEAPON WAS SO LARGE THAT IT NEEDED -- THAT THE ONLY -- IT NEEDED A LARGE TARGET.

AND THAT MEANT A CITY.

NOT A MILITARY INSTALLATION.

NOT A BATTLESHIP.

IT NEEDED A WHOLE CITY.

AND HE WAS VERY AMBIVALENT.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE WAS EXTREMELY AWARE OF THE TRAGIC HUMAN CONSEQUENCES THIS IS GOING TO BE USED AND -- ON WHOLE CITY WHICH MOST OF THE VICTIMS ARE GOING TO BE CIVILIANS.

AND YET, HE WAS CONVINCED OF NIELS BOHR'S ARGUMENT WHEN HE ARRIVED IN LOS ALAMOS IN THE LAST DAY OF 1943.

NIELS BOHR, THE GREAT DANISH PHYSICIST SAID, ROBERT, I HAVE ONE QUESTION FOUR S IT BIG ENOUGH?

IS THE BOMB BIG ENOUGH SO THAT HUMANITY WILL UNDERSTAND THAT IT CAN NO LONGER FIGHT SFWHARS WILL IT END ALL WARS?

AND OPPENHEIMER CONVINCED HIMSELF THAT, YOU KNOW, THE WEAPON HAD TO BE DEMONSTRATED IN THIS WAR ON A TARGET SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD UNDERSTAND ITS HORRIBLE DESTRUCTIVENESS AND, THEREFORE, THE NEXT WAR WOULD NOT BE FOUGHT BY TWO ADVERSARIES, BOTH OF WHOM WOULD BE ARMED WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND THAT WOULD OF COURSE BE ARMAGEDDON.

SO IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED, EVEN PHILOSOPHICAL ARGUMENT.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN ALMOST 80 YEARS, AND IN SOME WAYS THE NIELS BOHR/OPPENHEIMER ARGUMENT, IF WE USE IT, IT WILL BE TO TERRIBLE, WE WILL NEVER USE SOMETHING LIKE THIS AGAIN, HAS HELD TRUE FOR 80 YEARS?

WE WAKE UP IN THE MORNING AND THINK, MAYBE PUTIN'S GOING TO DO SOMETHING.

HOW DO YOU FEEL THE RESOLUTION IS SO FAR?

>> WELL, IT'S A GAMBLE, ISN'T IT?

AND, YES, IT'S TRUE.

WE HAVE NOT FOUGHT A WAR LIKE WORLD WAR II.

WE HAVE FOUGHT LITTLE WARS LIKE VIETNAM AND KOREA WITH GREAT CASUALTIES, BUT WE HAVEN'T USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AGAIN.

WE HAVEN'T HAD TOTAL WARFARE AS WE DID IN WORLD WAR II.

SO MAYBE NIELS BOHR AND OPPENHEIMER WERE RIGHT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IN THE COURSE OF HUMAN HISTORY, IT SEEMS THE ODDS ARE THAT THESE WEAPONS WILL BE USED AGAIN UNLESS WE DO WHAT OPPENHEIMER SUGGESTED, WHICH WAS TO ESSENTIALLY BAN THEM AND CREATE AN INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC AUTHORITY THAT WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO MONITOR AND INSPECT EVERY LABORATORY, EVERY FACTORY EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD TO MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE IS BUILDING THESE WEAPONS.

YOU KNOW, HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT WE NEED TO CONTROL THIS TECHNOLOGY.

SO, COMING BACK AGAIN TO ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, I THINK IF HE WAS WITH US TODAY, HE WOULD BE MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENT, THAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES SOCIALLY FOR SOCIETY OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND REGULATE IT, AND HE WOULD BE MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENT TODAY.

HE WOULD BE APPALLED THAT WE HAD AN ARMS RACE.

HE WOULD BE APPALLED THAT MR. PUTIN IS THREATENING TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE UKRAINE.

AND HE WOULD BE VERY FEARFUL, AS I AM TODAY, THAT SOMEDAY WE MIGHT ACTUALLY SEE ANOTHER NUCLEAR WAR FOUGHT.

MAYBE NOT BETWEEN RUSSIA AND AMERICA, BUT BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND INDIA.

YOU KNOW, THEY ARE BOTH NATIONS WHO ARE ENEMIES AND THEY ARE BOTH ARMED WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

SO I DON'T KNOW.

THE STORY IS NOT OVER, AND IT COULD STILL END BADLY.

>> KAI BIRD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.