(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

I'm about to introduce a segment that Mary Gamba, my colleague on "Lessons in Leadership", did with me with this author, Evan Drellich.

He's the author of "Winning Fixes Everything: How Baseball's Brightest Minds Created Sports' Biggest Mess".

It's about the Houston Astros' cheating scandal of 2017 against my New York Yankees.

And the whole idea that this team, the Astros, were part of a cheating scandal that wasn't just cheating in a particular game or a series, it was a culture.

It's about leadership, it's about sports culture, about ethics.

And does winning fix everything?

Obviously not.

And Evan Drellich talks to us, Mary and I, about that, and we wanted to share it with our larger audience.

I can get that out.

Here it is.

Welcome to "Lessons in Leadership".

We are honored to be joined by Evan Drellich, who is the author of a compelling, important book.

While it's about baseball, it's also about leadership, and ethics, and culture.

He's the author of "Winning Fixes Everything: Baseball's Biggest Minds Created Sports' Biggest Mess".

Evan, great to have you with us.

- Thanks for having me, Steve.

- Now, I said this right before we got on the air, I'm a Yankee fan, hardcore.

The Houston Astros, the Yankees, a very big series.

A little cheating going on.

Could you set the context for your reporting in this book?

What it has to do with the Astros, the cheating scandal that the Astros apparently still don't admit, and what the heck it has to do with the larger picture of Major League Baseball?

Loaded question, I know, go ahead.

- Yeah, it's interesting.

Even when I speak to non-business focused audiences, I do say that this is a management culture book with a baseball setting.

There's a cover of a baseball on the cover, a picture of a baseball on the cover.

But, you know, it's really about the front office and the operation of a baseball team.

And we had this major event happen, this famous cheating scandal now.

The 2017 Astros were cheating.

They won the World Series that year.

And I was actually, along with a colleague, the first reporter to break the story of them cheating.

And I had covered the team in person, and so I set out to write a book about how did we get here?

How did we arrive at a point that you had this massive scandal where major figures in the sport, top executives are fired?

And it's really a 10-year or even longer story to understand the set of factors, what was going on, systemically in baseball, as well as inside the Astros management culture, to bring us to this cheating scandal.

- If I have this wrong Evan , correct me.

They've got cameras where you're not supposed to have cameras.

The camera is looking at the catcher calling signals.

They're watching the pitches so they can figure out what number the catcher's calling and predict the pitch.

The Astro batters are aware of the pitch coming.

Look at that advantage.

I went 1-for-16 playing baseball at JV, which is why I never made the varsity.

I didn't, if I knew that curve ball was coming, I might have hung in there sooner.

They're cheating, and then Mary, they're banging a drum.

- Oh yeah, yep, I was gonna say that part too, yeah.

- And the drum, and the number of hits on the drum, Evan, if I have this wrong, tells the batter, the Astros batter what pitch is coming.

That's insanity!

And how long was that going on?

- Yeah, I mean this, so this is at home during the 2017 season.

You basically described it right.

They did have a camera in center field.

Having the camera alone at that time was actually legal, but the usage of it was not.

So the camera fed to a television monitor that was very close to where the Astros sit during games, the dugout.

And they had a, (scoffs) they had a standard garbage can, kind of large, dark green, plastic garbage can there, that, they're out of sight of the field, but very close to the field.

They would hit it with a baseball bat, and that would signal to the hitter what was coming.

And if there was no bang on the garbage can, it meant a fastball.

If there was one bang, it meant a curveball.

If it was two, it meant a different pitch, usually a changeup, some sort of off-speed pitch.

And you know, this is using electronics entirely off the field to influence what we think is, you know, an on-the-level, fair competition on the field.

And that, you know, it's beyond the pale for most people who enjoy competitive sports.

You're supposed to be competing on the field, not off the field.

- So Mary, who's a huge hockey fan, appreciates this, 'cause she also said this.

José Altuve of the Astros is coming around, (laughs) (Mary laughs) he's coming around third base and they're about to congratulate him.

He's like, "Don't take my shirt off!"

- "Don't take my shirt off!"

(laughs) - Because this- - Evan, what was going on underneath his shirt?

- So yeah, there was a lot of speculation of rumors that well- - Allegedly.

- Does he have a buzzer?

Does he have some sort of electronic device that he's wearing on him- - Vibrating.

- To let him know what pitch was coming?

I didn't find evidence of that.

Major League Baseball did not find evidence of that.

So that's never been a confirmed thing.

But it was, you know, this happens right around the time we break the story of what they'd done two years earlier.

So it's a conspiracy theory at this point; it is not proven.

But yeah, people speculate and believe that he could have been doing something even worse than that garbage can scheme.

- Before Mary jumps in, what the heck does all of this, the Astros, what they did, Major League Baseball, how they handled it from a managerial leadership point of view, what does this have to do with leadership and culture?

If you go back to the origin of this management group under which this cheating scandal grew, you had an ex-McKinsey consultant brought in by an owner who was a first-time owner in the sport, who had had a lot of success outside of baseball but had no experience in baseball.

And they set out to create this really cost-efficient operation built on the principles of the outside business world.

Sounds good; it's not unreasonable.

More than that, they became incredibly bottom-line focused.

It was really about wins and making money, which yes, are naturally two goals for a baseball team.

But they didn't focus really on anything else.

There was no focus on compliance.

There was no focus on making- - What about ethics?

Ethics?

- Same thing.

One of the people I spoke to for the book is the Dean of Rice University's Business School, a fellow named Peter Rodriguez.

He studies corruption in business settings.

And his point was that often in environments where there could be rule-breaking or there could be ethical violations, it is on leadership, be that the general manager of the team, or in this case, maybe centrally at baseball's office, the commissioner's office, to really get in front of that with people.

You do have- - They didn't.

- You have to deliver a message of, "We know you could have temptation here to cheat, and we expect you to behave in X, Y, and Z ways."

As opposed to sitting there and assuming that people are just gonna know, "Oh, we shouldn't break the rules."

There was none of that in Houston.

- Yeah, Evan, I want to talk a little bit about trust and leadership.

And for any young adults, and I watch almost every Yankees game now with my dad and my husband and my son, Joey.

And after every pitcher comes off, we know, you see them, they're checking the hands, they're double-checking the glove.

The other day, they had, you know, Nasty Nestor, you know, sharpie out the 44 on his glove, 'cause it could be a distraction.

Because business leaders are cutting corners, they're doing what it takes.

Where is that line between trust and leadership, and what message is it sending?

I know it's a loaded question.

- Yeah, I don't mean to be too bleak about it, but people are always gonna try to get ahead.

People are always gonna try to find an advantage.

They're gonna try to justify their behavior.

"Well, this guy's using sticky stuff to enhance his pitches.

So, you know, I can do the same."

When you actually said "trust", the first thing that came to my mind is about the organizational need to create buy-in and trust such that you can prevent these types of things from happening once they get going.

In the case of the Astros, there was very little trust between the general manager and the field manager, the players and the front office operation.

There were various ways really on kind of the business side where the front office tried to take advantage of and frankly screw over players in different ways.

And so, what happens?

What happens when you, in the middle of a baseball season, drop in McKinsey and Company on not your business operation, but your baseball operation?

- McKinsey, the consultants, came in and they were helping to manage this team.

- Right, you know, they were literally evaluating what manager A.J.

Hinch was doing.

So if you're manager A.J.

Hinch, you're the field manager, you're the guy in charge of that dugout and those players.

You have your boss, Jeff Luhnow, dropping in these consultants on you in the middle of the season.

When you have this cheating scheme unfolding, do you think you're gonna stand there, if you're A.J.

Hinch, and go, "You know what?

I trust my boss here.

I'm gonna bring it to him, and I'm gonna get ahead of this"?

No, the whole operation was so bent on always being 20% better, always being 20% better.

That can deliver results, and in Houston, it did deliver results.

- Did they ever admit, I'm sorry, we have a time issue here.

Did the Astros ever admit to cheating?

- Yes, it depends on the individual, but yes.

The overall, the commissioner's office found that they cheated, we found that they cheated, and players acknowledged it.

Not every player; but yes, players have acknowledged it.

- Does winning fix everything?

- I don't think so, but I hope people read the book and answer that question for themselves.

- It'’s a great book, I'’ve enjoyed it.

The name of the book is, "Winning Fixes Everything: How Baseball's Brightest Minds Created Sports' Biggest Mess".

Evan, great job, and we appreciate you being with us.

- Thanks, Steve.

- You guys stay with us; we're right back.

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