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- This is One-On-One.

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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

For those of you who've watched our show or watched us on "Lessons in Leadership" or anywhere, you know that I'm obsessed with leadership and great leaders, great communicators, people who made a transformative difference in our nation.

And I can't think of anyone who's made a greater difference in American society than Dr. Martin Luther King, and the author of this book, "King: A Life," Jonathan Eig, is in the house right now and he is with us.

Jonathan, it's an honor to have you with us.

I just told you before we get on the air, I loved your book on Lou Gehrig.

This is even more powerful for me.

Thank you for joining us.

- Thank you for having me.

- So let me ask you this, as someone who thought I knew about Dr. King because I've read other books about him, I learned so much more.

Why did you choose to write this extraordinary biography of an exceptional American, Dr. King?

- Two reasons, really.

One is that there were still people around who knew him, and I wanted to take advantage of that opportunity, people who knew him well, worked with him, even his older sister was still living when I began this book six years ago.

The other reason is that in the course of celebrating King, we have simplified his story and watered it down to the point that he probably wouldn't even recognize himself.

You know, he was a human being, not a monument, not a saint.

He suffered moments of doubt.

He suffered failures.

He did not always behave the way he would've liked to have, and he was also much more radical than we tend to think about today.

We've turned him into Mr.

I Have a Dream and forgotten that he also called for reparations and affirmative action and spoke out about police brutality in that very same speech at the march on Washington, so I wanted to try to correct some of the damage we've done to his image over the last, you know, few decades.

- There're a few aspects of the book that really got my attention, and I don't wanna start with salacious things or however people define salacious, but one of the things that really, not troubling, but it was hard for me to get my hands on, was that King as a public person, you wrote about him extensively, but as a private person, was flawed like all of us.

And the obsession that J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI had about King and his private life and the recordings of him in hotels, in bedrooms with the recorders under the bed, and trying to find out every conversation when he was with women other than his wife.

Does it in any way lessen his mark on American history as the greatest civil rights leader in the eyes of many?

But also, what role did the American government play in trying to destroy him with that information?

- It's an important issue, and I think that the FBI's conduct is much more disturbing than King's conduct, because we take a private citizen who is flawed, and we begin investigating him, in part because we're concerned, the government is concerned that he may be associating with communists.

And once it becomes clear that he's not remotely interested in communists, that he's in fact a great patriot, well by then, the FBI has heard him on the phone with women other than Coretta, as you indicated, and that becomes their obsession.

So you have to ask yourself, why was it a priority for the federal government, for our top law enforcement agency, to concern itself with the private affairs of Martin Luther King?

And I think the answer is clear.

The answer is that those in government were interested in maintaining the existing power structure, the status quo, and they saw King as a threat to that.

They saw him as somebody who might force change in American society and change the balance of power, and that was something they wished to head off, to avoid, and one way to do that was by damaging King's reputation, by trying to destroy his marriage, by trying to undercut his position in the civil rights movement, and that's why they were obsessed with his sex life.

- And he was very worried about that information coming out.

And I don't wanna say paranoid, but he did, he spent time in hospitals, and I guess my sense is they didn't call it depression at the time, but he experienced real depression, significant, over many periods of his life.

- He did, he was hospitalized numerous times.

They called it exhaustion at the time, but his wife - Exhaustion.

- often referred to it as depression and some of his close friends told me they thought he was probably clinically depressed.

But think about it this way, you know, he takes the leadership of the civil rights movement at the age of 26 with the Montgomery bus boycott.

Soon after that, his home is bombed.

Soon after that, he's stabbed in the chest, millimeters from being killed, every day he's getting death threats, and then he finds out that his own government is leaking to the press information about his personal life, so every morning he has to wake up wondering if that's the day that his reputation is shattered, and he's got to somehow carry on and he does.

He could have quit, but he doesn't.

He continues to fight for justice in this country for equal rights at great personal sacrifice, but it does take a toll.

He's depressed at times, he's angry, he's frustrated, and then he feels like nobody's listening to him toward the end of his life, he feels like his popularity is falling off, and a part of that is because the media has been aware, has been made aware of this information about his personal life, so they're not treating him very well either.

- You know, the other thing that, and I wanna make reference to this, the other part of the book that is incredibly interesting, the book is called "King: A Life," a New York Times' review on it was exceptional and it's not just the New York Times, anyone who has read it that I've spoken to can tell you, this is a great book, go out and get it.

But we recently did a half hour on Malcolm X with, in fact, Tamara Payne, who co-wrote this book with her late dad, Les Payne.

Why do I bring it up?

Because a significant section of your book, Jonathan, talks about the relationship between Dr. King and Malcolm X, and you have argued, very credibly, that the media mischaracterized that relationship and that there was a significant degree of mutual respect between them, even though their approaches to the civil rights movement and race relations in this country, they were different.

Talk about it, please.

- Sure, it was not entirely the media's fault because Malcolm X had an interest in stoking conflict between them.

Malcolm X liked to call King names, called him an Uncle Tom and other things, in part because it helped Malcolm X define his role and helped attract people who were younger and more rebellious and not taken with King's nonviolent approach, but the media exacerbated that, and even lied about it in fact.

Over time, King and Malcolm X were drawing closer in their philosophies, and Malcolm X became interested in taking up political interests, getting involved in political activity, something he had avoided earlier in his career, and even so, when King and Malcolm might have found common ground, the media was dividing them.

One of the things I discovered is that the most famous quote we have from King about Malcolm X, in which he calls Malcolm X a loud mouth, basically, whose demagogic fiery oratory is bringing nothing but pain and woe for the-- - Is that the Playboy interview?

- Playboy interview by Alex Haley.

- Alex Haley.

- That quote was entirely fabricated by Haley.

And in fact, King never said that.

What he said was that he didn't think he had all the answers and that he was open to learning from Malcolm X.

- Again, the book goes into greater detail about that.

A couple of other areas I'm interested in.

King had relationships with all kinds of people, in the government, outside the government, in the civil rights movement, in corporate America, he had to raise money to keep things going, the church, King comes out of a Baptist background, his father, Daddy King, if you will, was his mentor in the church as well.

But Martin Luther King had relationships with certain people who did have connections to the, quote, the Communist Party.

Put that in perspective, not in 2023, but back then.

And there were a whole range of folks who had some connection to quote unquote, Communist Party who were revered in a whole range of areas across this country.

- There were Communist Party members everywhere in America, former Communist Party members, even more abundant, because they had been in the mainstream in the 40s and 50s, and it was not uncommon for people with Communist ties to be active in all levels of government.

And that was not shocking or disturbing, but there was paranoia about it at the time, during the Cold War, there was, you know, legitimate fear that communists were trying to infiltrate American institutions and might be interested in infiltrating the civil rights movement.

But the FBI recognized very quickly that King's connections were not interested in planting communism within the civil rights, the Black community, and it didn't matter, to them anyway.

- So Dr. King is assassinated at 39 years of age.

But, and I wanna talk about his fear of death or his attitude about death in a moment, because "I've Been to the Mountaintop" speech, literally, the night before?

- Right.

- But the assassination of Malcolm X in the Audubon Ballroom in 1965, it shocks the world.

Now there are serious questions, check out our interview with Tamara Payne on this as to what the New York City police were doing and not doing to protect Malcolm X at the time, and who was involved and engaged in it beyond, it was assumed who was involved and engaged, tied to the Nation of Islam.

That being said, King's reaction and response to Malcolm X's assassination, talk about it.

- Well as I said earlier, he was getting death threats.

His home had been bombed, he'd been stabbed, and when Kennedy had been assassinated in '63, King's reaction, his comment to Coretta was, "That's what's going to happen to me."

And then to see the same thing happen to Malcolm X, it, you know, it had to shake King, and I think it did.

I think he knew that there was a target on his back and he had to live with that every day.

And you know, he could have stepped down.

Let's remember that.

He didn't have to stay in his position of leadership.

He could have said he was taking time off for his health or to write a book or to teach, but he kept himself right out there on the front lines, knowing exactly what the risk was.

- Talk about Coretta Scott King for a moment.

Extraordinarily, yeah.

- Yeah, I think, I don't think King becomes who he is without Coretta Scott King, and I think the reason he falls in love with her is that she had more experience as an activist than he did when they met.

She'd been to Antioch College, an integrated school, and she'd been involved in protest movements, and when she meets King in Boston, King hadn't done anything yet.

And I think he's really attracted to her intellect, her passion for this kind of work, and she's always pushing him to do more, to think beyond where he is at that moment.

When King wins the Nobel Peace Prize, it's Coretta who says to him, "We have a greater responsibility than ever now "to think beyond civil rights, beyond voting rights, "to think about issues like hunger and poverty and war."

And she's constantly out in front.

And I think she's a real teacher to him, even though at the same time, King's own sexist beliefs keep her in the position of having to be the housewife.

He doesn't really respect her potential to be involved in the movement.

- When we come back, Jonathan, let's do this.

Dr. King's speaking out on the Vietnam War is a seminal moment for the civil rights movement, for Dr. King, for our nation, and so complex on so many levels.

Jonathan Eig is the author of "King: A Life."

Get it.

It's powerful, it's important.

We'll be back right after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

And we're back with Jonathan Eig.

I mispronounced Jonathan's name.

Has that ever happened before, by the way, Jonathan?

- (laughs) About half the time.

(Steve laughs) - I hear you, I get the same thing on my name.

I mentioned that we were gonna talk about the Vietnam War.

Tremendous pressure on Dr. King not to speak out on the war in Southeast Asia.

It was like, look, we got enough problems right here in Watts, in Newark, my hometown, in urban communities across this country, race relations are what they are.

What are you doing talking about Vietnam?

He did it.

He never backed down from it.

Talk about it.

- Let's remember that the war was still pretty popular at that point in the mid-60s, and he was certainly getting criticized by the hawks in Congress and by LBJ who felt like this was a personal attack.

- And the Johnson administration who, I'm sorry for interrupting, Lyndon Johnson, the President after Kennedy is assassinated, November 22nd, 1963, Johnson becomes President, Johnson is an ally to some extent, to King, but then Johnson's saying, "What are you doing?

"You're hurting me."

Go ahead.

- That's right, King and Johnson are great allies.

They're fighting together to get civil rights legislation passed, and they have a, they seem to have a really warm friendship.

Of course, it's being tainted somewhat by J. Edgar Hoover who's filing constant memos to the President about King's sex life, but then when Johnson finds himself being drawn in deeper and deeper in Vietnam and literally having nightmares about it, King begins speaking out on the war, and Johnson takes it personally.

"Why are you attacking me?

"This is, you know, already giving me headaches, "and now I've gotta worry about you coming out against me "for the war?"

But on top of that, King is being criticized by his own people, by his supporters in the civil rights movement, by his closest friends who are saying, "You're pulling yourself in too many different directions "at a time, you know, we don't have the bandwidth "to take on anything besides civil rights.

"Stick to what we're good at.

"And you're just costing us support, "you're costing us manpower.

"We can't really deal with this anti-war protest."

But King says, "I gotta do what I believe.

"I gotta do what's right morally.

"It's not about what's right, what's practical."

- He did it because he believed it was right, but come back closer to home, if you will.

Talk to me about King in Selma.

- So, you know, King is constantly throwing himself into these situations in which he is relying on chaos.

You know, if we're gonna talk about his leadership skills, he's not a traditional leader.

He's raised in the church.

He's raised to lead a congregation, but to lead an organization, to lead a movement, he has no experience in that.

He's making it up as he goes along, every step of the way.

And in Selma, he's being criticized for not leading the first walk across the Edmond Pettus Bridge, for appearing to seek compromise with the administration to avoid another unpleasant scene, another violent scene on that bridge as they attempt to walk from Selma to Montgomery.

And so King is getting it from all sides.

The younger civil rights activists in SNCC are criticizing him, the presidential administration is criticizing him for-- - SNCC?

- Yeah, Students for a Nonviolent, Student Nonviolent Coordinated Committee.

- I apologize, go ahead.

- And that's John Lewis's organization.

John Lewis decides to march, and-- - And John Lewis was beaten to an inch of his life as he walked across the Pettus Bridge, but go ahead.

- That's right, but other members of SNCC wouldn't go because they didn't wanna lend their support to King.

They thought he was too conservative, that he was playing it too safe, and-- - Conservative?

- Yeah, they thought he was too conservative because he was in talks with the administration.

He was agreeing not to march until the federal judge's order was concluded, so people thought he was wishy-washy.

So King was getting it from all sides.

He was under attack from people who thought he was too liberal, from others who thought he was too conservative, and it made it, you know, very difficult.

When you're the national leader of an entire people and the head of the spear, you're always going to be, you know, you're never gonna be able to please everybody.

- Talk about the march on Washington.

The "I Have a Dream" speech.

Put it in context.

- Well, it's the summer of '63.

It's right after Birmingham.

There's legislation pending for civil rights and President Kennedy is urging King not to march, because he's afraid that if violence erupts, it will doom any attempts to get legislation passed.

And King insists on coming.

He's tired of people saying, "Wait, take your time, "trust us, be patient."

People have been hearing that for hundreds of years, and where did it get them?

So he leads this march and it comes off, of course, beautifully.

He gives his famous, most famous speech, "I Have a Dream," and we see this moment, really this gorgeous, beautiful moment where Black and white people are holding hands and singing in harmony, and the country seems like it might really be ready to turn a corner.

And I think everyday people watching on TV at home feel like, we might be ready to really make some progress on this issue that has divided us and bloodied us for so long.

And yet, what happens right after the march on Washington?

What happens to that moment of hope?

Well, the FBI announces two days later that King is public enemy number one when it comes to race, that he's becoming too dangerous, too powerful, and then just, you know, soon after that, we see the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, which is basically white members of the Klan saying, "We're not ready yet.

"We're gonna fight this to the death."

- And children are killed.

- And innocent children are killed in that church.

- So, Jonathan, let me ask you this.

What do you think, given all the research you've done, given where we are as a nation in 2023 as it relates to race relations, civil rights, affirmative action, put it it all together.

And also how incredibly polarized we are.

A friend of mine said recently, who is a strong supporter of the so-called MAGA movement and Donald Trump, and yes, he is a friend of mine.

We don't see the world the same way, but that's who he is and we grew up together.

He said, "Steve, you know that sooner or later," people have heard me say this before, "we're about to face a civil war."

And I said, "What do you mean?"

And without going into too much detail, I don't believe he meant racially, I think he meant politically, which in some ways, does have to do with race.

What do you believe Dr. King would say and/or more importantly do to help us come together and not be as polarized and divided as we are, bordering in the eyes of some on a so-called civil war?

Loaded question, I know.

- Well, one of the miraculous things about King is that he had an ability to speak across lines, Black and white, North and South, left and right.

His appeal was based on the fact that he was calling out to our principles as Americans and our believers in God, and he was able to unite that.

He was able to say that if we are wrong in seeking justice, if we are wrong in seeking equality, then the Constitution must be wrong and the Bible must be wrong.

And people found something in his message that resonated, even if they weren't necessarily on board with the civil rights movement.

And I think, you know, that gives us hope that there may still be things that unite us.

It seems hopeless now, but I would argue that things were a lot worse in King's day.

I would argue that Black people faced a lot more violence and inequality by law and in practical matters as well, day to day, than they do today.

We've made a great deal of progress, but King warned us that it wasn't enough.

He warned us that we still had work to do and that we needed to stay awake.

We needed to stay alert to change, and we needed to keep fighting or else we would backslide.

- Loaded, even more loaded question.

What do you think Dr. King would say about Donald Trump?

(Jonathan chuckles) - I think he would be against anybody who tried to divide us.

And I think he was somebody who was a great unifier, who believed in God, who believed in the Bible, and believed we all needed to try to walk in the steps of Jesus.

That was his religious belief, and he tried to live up to that.

I think that he would criticize anybody who came to power by attempting to divide rather than to unite.

- Hmm.

What do you think he would've said about Barack Obama as President?

- Obviously, you know, I think he'd be enormously proud of having a Black man as President of the United States.

I think he might've been surprised that it took as long as it did, because people were talking about it in the 60s.

People were pushing him to run for President.

He was not cut out for politics-- - But why, I'm sorry for, Jonathan, I'm sorry for interrupting, why do you think he never actually, again, only 39 years of age when he was assassinated, why do you think Dr. King never, unlike Reverend Sharpton and others who come out of the church and others who are in Congress now as we speak, why do you think he never seriously considered running for office?

Because even in your book, he never did.

- I don't think he liked politics, and I don't think he really understood it.

He was a preacher, and he saw his role as being someone who preaches to the nation and tries to save the soul of the nation.

But politics was a dirty kind of a business, and he never really understood the way they worked.

If he did understand politics, he would've used his leverage with President Johnson to say, "Get J. Edgar Hoover off my back."

And I don't even think that ever occurred to him.

So there's this-- - So he's not placing a phone call saying, "Hey listen, "you're supposed to be my friend.

"I'm helping you, you're helping me, "get this guy who's heading the FBI off my, "because he is destroying my life."

He's not gonna, which, that's what a lot of politicians would do and I'm not even saying it's wrong, but he wouldn't even consider that.

- Yeah.

I don't think it ever crossed his mind, and I think in a way, LBJ might have lost respect for him because he didn't ask for that.

He didn't ask for anything for himself.

- The quintessential politician, Lyndon Johnson.

- That's right.

And that's why I don't think they really understood each other.

- Really.

And what was his, real quick on this, 'cause I got a minute and a half left, the Kennedy's.

And I'm a student of the Kennedy's as well, read more than most, still curious about them and finding out things that I realized, they're often not what I thought they were.

Translation.

Robert Kennedy, who said important things the night that King was killed, important things that tried to keep the lid on violence, impossible in the eyes of many, but they were not always supportive of Dr. King, were they?

Please.

The Kennedy administration.

- Well you know, it was RFK who authorized the wiretaps on King's home and office.

- There it is.

As Attorney General, - And JFK knew about it.

- under his brother.

Sorry for, he was Attorney General back then.

- As Attorney General.

- And Robert Kennedy had to sign off on that bug.

- Sign off on it and reauthorized it, even after the evidence emerged that King was not doing anything related to communism, he still reauthorized it, and-- - Why?

- Because he was afraid of J. Edgar Hoover.

J. Edgar Hoover had the dirt on the Kennedys as well, and RFK knew that.

At the same time, King was really disappointed with the Kennedys for slow-walking civil rights legislation.

He felt like, this is what you believe in, this is what you promised us, we got you elected.

Where is the payback?

King was always disappointed by that.

- Jonathan Eig, the author of, important book, "King: A Life."

Get it, read it, learn from it.

Jonathan, I cannot thank you enough for joining us for this entire program.

I wish you all the best and look forward to your next work.

- Thank you so much.

- I'm Steve Adubato, and more important than ever to talk about Dr. King and understand his life, his legacy, and the lessons we can learn.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Kean University.

Newark Board of Education.

PSEG Foundation.

RWJBarnabas Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

The North Ward Center.

And by PNC Foundation.

Promotional support provided by Insider NJ.

And by NJ.Com.

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