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- This is One-On-One.

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- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

We have an entire program that we are doing with Michael Wolff, who is an extraordinary author, writer.

He makes a difference in his work and the whole series of books that we'll talk about in a minute.

But he's the author of this book called, "The Fall: The End of Fox News and the Murdoch Dynasty."

Michael, it's an honor to have you with us.

- Thank you for having me.

- Michael, the premise of the book, there's so many things that are going on in this book, but one of the things that I read was, it's a question of whether it's a tragedy or a comedy.

Is it both, Michael?

- Well, I would say this.

It's a great story.

So, and perhaps all great stories are both tragedies and comedies.

But I mean, you can't ask for more.

The characters are fantastic here.

They wear their strengths and weaknesses on their sleeves.

What they do impacts us all.

And in the end, it's all gonna come to tears.

- So, let's start with Rupert Murdoch.

Is he 92 as we're doing this program right now?

- Yes, so, 93 coming up in March.

- Okay, we're taping this in late January.

Let me ask you.

Rupert Murdoch, to what degree is he still engaged and involved in the quote "Murdoch Media Empire" and also with Fox News?

- Well.

- Is he out totally?

- No, no, no, no.

Quite the opposite.

So, there are two things, two ways you have to look at this.

He is this central person in this company, in everything that happens in this company.

But he is 92, soon to be 93 years old.

And... You know, he's like any 92 or 93 years old.

You can't run two major public companies.

So, he does run them, he is the decision maker, but he can't make the decisions.

- Michael, the relationship between Rupert Murdoch/Fox News and Donald Trump.

Complicated on a lot of levels, but the one thing I took from your book is Murdoch does not like Donald Trump.

- He called him an effing idiot, if I'm not mistaken.

- He despises him, I would say, of all of the politicians, and Murdoch has been involved with literally all of the politicians, has met every president since Harry Truman.

I would say Donald Trump is his, to put it mildly, least favorite.

- Michael, isn't it also true that on some level, Fox News, made some sort of arrangement, whether it's overt or not, with Donald Trump?

Meaning the coverage of him, except for early on in the presidential campaign.

There was a leaning toward DeSantis who as we speak is out.

This will be seen later.

Isn't Fox News tied to Donald Trump because their audience disproportionately loves Donald Trump.

They can't get away from it whether Rupert Murdoch hates him or not, despise him or not.

- Absolutely, and so that gives Rupert Murdoch, who's had an extraordinary career, a man of extraordinary wealth, extraordinary power, leaves him pretty much helpless.

- It's more than about Fox News.

It's about the entire Murdoch Media Empire and the Dynasty.

But I'm curious about this.

There are people on the air, on Fox News that you talk about extensively.

I'm gonna say the name and you just give your reaction, okay?

Sean Hannity.

- Not the brightest bulb in the universe.

- Gimme a little more.

Love, he loves Donald Trump.

- Totally.

I mean, his career has, Sean was always the kind of, you know, bringing up the rear in terms of Fox ratings.

It was when he aligned with Donald Trump that he became the, probably the most powerful person in the network.

- But someone not on the air who died in 2017.

Again, a lot of the book, and by the way, this is the book, Michael's book.

Go out and get it.

The relationship between Roger Ailes who passes in 2017, if I'm not mistaken.

- Exactly.

Exactly.

- And Murdoch.

So, help me on this.

I'm gonna lay it out.

I'm gonna try to lay it out, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Murdoch, I don't know if he likes or doesn't like Roger Ailes, but Ailes is making a lot of money through Fox News for the Murdochs.

Fair?

- Fair.

Absolutely.

- But Murdoch's son, Lachlan, and who now is what at Fox News?

- He's the Chief Executive.

- He, Murdoch's son and Ailes did not like each other, trust each other, and there was a huge power struggle.

Accurate statement?

- Extremely accurate.

Yes.

- So, how does that play out at that time?

Who wins the power struggle back then?

- Well, it's actually the both sons, Lachlan and James, and the entire, all of the Murdoch children at one time or another were positioned against Ailes.

And there's various points in this power struggle.

In 2005, Ailes forced Lachlan Murdoch out of the company, essentially.

Essentially he made Rupert Murdoch decide, "It's either him or me, the guy who was making you billions of dollars, or your idiot son."

And that was essentially the terms in which Ailes presented it, and Murdoch chose the money.

And Lachlan was forced out of the company.

- Lemme go back to some folks on air or no longer on the air.

One of the most fascinating aspects, parts of this book talks about Tucker Carlson.

Talk about why Carlson matters in all this, and his relationship with Rupert Murdoch, which is fascinating, please.

- Totally extremely complicated.

I mean, Tucker matters because he stepped forward.

He got his primetime position in 2017 with the election of, with the ouster of Roger Ailes who would not give him a primetime position.

And with the election of Donald Trump.

And Carlson really, in an interesting transformation, because he used to be a kind of what Murdoch would've characterized as a Country Club Republican, which is why he got the job.

Murdoch thought he was a moderate.

And instead he transformed into the kind of the, to the extent that there is one, the intellectual heart of the MAGA movement.

And I mean, he became really the person.

I mean, Donald Trump was never gonna explain what this ideology behind this movement that he was the front of.

But Tucker Carlson came along and essentially explained it and gave it real power and real legs.

- But then was pushed out, A.

And B, how much was that connected to the so-called Dominion Case, which if I'm not mistaken, the amount, $787 million is what?

- Yeah, it was fine.

It was exactly, with the cause and effect, it was right there.

It was in a complicated end negotiation of this lawsuit.

It was, I mean, the entire thing came down to how do we not go over a billion dollars?

From Murdoch's standpoint.

Murdoch won't go over a billion dollars.

So, they started to throw things in.

What if we fire Sean Hannity?

And then in this discussion, and this is a kind of off books discussion.

In other words, it's not part of the deal.

But it was the thing, the grease that got the deal done.

It was, well, you know, how about Tucker?

And that got the deal done.

- I did a crappy job, by the way, explaining.

And I just said Dominion, as if everybody knows the Dominion case.

Dominion, they're the folks who made the voting machines, if you will.

And the case was a defamation case.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Michael, that Dominion said, "Hey, wait a minute, you got these folks at Fox News."

And by the way, if when people are wondering like, "Why is Adubato, we're on public broadcasting.

Why are we talking about Fox News?

Why are we talking about the Murdoch Media Dynasty and Empire?"

Because it impacts public awareness, public information, public opinion, democracy.

Yes.

- It's the single greatest political power in this country outside of Donald Trump.

- Yeah, and to that point, when Fox News anchors are trashing Dominion and going along with this lie.

Not my opinion, a lie.

That somehow the voting machines that Dominion was putting out there were jimmied and fixed and all this crap that was going on.

None of it was true.

They got deposed and these people had to put their hand up and tell the truth.

Right, Michael?

- Yeah, they had to admit it.

- Right.

- We didn't believe it.

Yeah.

That was it.

The Trump camp's line was that Dominion had rigged the voting systems.

This was the steal.

They had helped steal the 2020 election.

Now, nobody at Fox thought that was true, but they thought- - But said it anyway, Michael?

- Yes.

Absolutely.

- Why?

Why?

- Thy said it, because two reasons.

They said it because Rupert Murdoch, or they said it because Donald, they believed that Donald Trump wanted them to say it, number one.

And number two, they said it because they believed that that's what their audience wanted to hear.

So, there's a complicated kind of thing in which their rationale became, "Well, the audience believes this, so who are we to disbelieve it?"

That was the rationale.

- Michael, I'm gonna take a quick break and when we come back, and Michael's been good enough to stay with us for the entire program.

We thank you for that.

The book is, Michael's book is, "The Fall of Fox News and the Murdoch Dynasty."

Also, this book is one of three.

Three, right, Michael?

- Right.

Yes.

- That you've written on the Trump presidency.

But we're talking about this book right now.

I wanna talk about the connection between the Murdochs and "Succession", Fox News and "Succession."

- Sure.

- A pretty great series.

- Yep.

- Right?

And also the impact all this has.

On the 2024 election it matters.

Michael Wolff is in the house, at least remotely.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

We're back with Michael Wolff, who is the author of "The Fall: The End of Fox News and the Murdoch Dynasty."

Michael, I said I wanted to make this "Succession" connection, the series, the extraordinary series, HBO.

What is the connection between the Murdochs, Fox News and "Succession"?

Is it a comparable story?

- No, I mean, they adapt the structure of the Murdoch story.

The children, the aging father, the powerful and rich aging father, the struggle to take over the empire after his death.

So, that's the story of "Succession", and that's the story of the Murdochs.

But in terms of the character, the characters here, it's at a great distance.

I mean, the makers of "Succession" don't know the Murdochs.

Don't really care about the Murdochs.

They care about creating a drama.

Now, I might argue, I would argue that the actual story is in fact even more dramatic and peculiar in its way.

But clearly, "Succession" did a great job, but the Murdochs are on their own terms, really, really interesting.

- So, let me ask you this.

As we go into this presidential, we're in the presidential election right now.

Fox News, is it a significantly different network?

And is the content significantly different in terms of being more responsible, being more tied to reporting and analyzing news in a more factual way, as opposed to, as you've been saying all along, doing what they think their audience wants them to do.

- Question.

- Yeah.

No, no, no.

That, yeah.

I mean- - What do you think they are now, Michael?

- The only deviation in their programming has been that basically for the past year, they have tried to will Ron DeSantis' candidacy into, certainly into a place that it is not now.

I mean, they went heavily.

They kept Murdoch, they kept Trump off the air or tried their best to do that and promoted DeSantis at every opportunity, obviously.

Obviously that failed.

- But Michael, I mean, again, I don't wanna make those of us who are connected to public broadcasting, the paragons of virtue, like we do everything right.

But there's the part that throws me off.

As someone who's been in the media for a long time, you've been reporting on it, analyzing it way better than most out there.

But what I'm curious about is the whole concept that you would go on the air every night and ask yourself, not what, "Is it important that our audience needs to understand and how can we help them understand it?"

but "We have a horse in the race.

We have a horse in this race, it was DeSantis.

Now, it's Trump again."

Even if we don't like Trump or don't think he's good for the country.

They're going on the air every night pitching a narrative, whether they think it's legitimate or not.

How the heck is that a news organization?

- Well, there's a couple of somewhat contradictory things here.

First thing, I don't... You know, whether it's a news organization or not, I mean, I'm not sure that's even a valid designation anymore.

MSNBC has its target audience.

CNN has its target audience.

Everybody is trying to deliver to their specific audience.

They are willing, they are catering, even the New York Times is catering to a specific audience.

- You don't think Fox News is in terms of degree, you don't think that- - Yes, I think it is.

- Go ahead, Michael.

I'm sorry.

- I think it is.

Yes.

In terms of of degree, it is more, which is why it is more profitable.

So, the degree really can be measured.

There's a, Fox News has $2 billion in free cash flow.

CNN has, you know, 4 or $500 million in free cash flow.

Therefore, I would say Fox is, you know, basically four times more extreme than CNN.

You could measure it that way.

But.. at the same time one of the interesting things that has happened over this past year is that they actually made a decision, a programming decision that was not chasing ratings, or at least Rupert Murdoch tried to, which is to go after, to support Ron DeSantis at the expense of covering Donald Trump.

- And what'd their audience say?

What did the Fox News audience say?

- It's, well, the numbers are significantly down.

And I think that that has caused lots of internal angst within the network.

And remember, there are, every one of these on air personalities are being judged by their ratings.

So, you know, Laura Ingraham was really, you know, she became Rupert Murdoch's designated Ron DeSantis person.

She's been, you know, kicked out of prime time.

And it is partially because of that.

Because Ron DeSantis failed to deliver the ratings that's necessary to stay in a primetime slot.

- So, Michael, I wanna shift gears and move away from Fox News and the Murdochs in this way.

I'm fascinated by looking at the role of the media while we're in it, I'm fascinated by us, even though we're not all the same.

Just the role the media plays in an election like 2024.

And also, just in terms of giving people information that means that can help them better understand the world we live in.

And so, here's the question.

So those of us in public broadcasting don't have a horse in the race.

We don't have a point of view.

You mentioned MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, they're all the same, but to different degrees.

So for those of us, maybe this is self-serving as a question.

I don't know, Michael.

For those of us who really are trying to be as fair and balanced, to steal their term, as humanly possible, are you saying that this approach to doing what we do is not economically viable?

Because how the heck are we building an audience who believes in an ideology that we promote?

Does that make any sense to you?

- Yeah, no, no.

I mean, I think it's the fundamental question.

And the answer is, it is not economically viable, or at least not economically viable at an ever increasing level of profits, at ever increasing growth, is you're gonna cap yourself out.

You're gonna realize, which is a perfectly valid thing to realize that news is not a big business.

It's a very limited business.

You know, remember, there was a whole era of television news when it was not a business.

You did television news because the government mandated it in terms of your broadcast license.

Then along the way, it got to be profitable.

It got to be a big money business.

And it grew and grew and grew.

But that came with a whole host of transforming aspects.

- So, along those lines, we got three or four minutes left.

Are you saying take the word news out of it for a second, because we're not the news, and folks can catch NJ Spotlight News every night.

Our colleagues and partners who do a great job reporting the news every night.

But for meaningful, I'm gonna try it this way.

For meaningful dialogue, conversations like this that don't have a point of view, that have people with all different perspectives Ds, Rs, conservative, liberals, people who thinks politics makes no sense and every politician of every stripe, and people who talk about the media.

That being said, are you saying you believe there's also a diminished audience from meaningful dialogue?

- Yeah, very, I mean, I don't...

I think there probably has never been a very big audience for meaningful dialogue.

I mean, people watch television to be entertained, to be distracted.

Yeah, yes, some people you might say they are looking for information, but I would say that they're, that that's probably what they tell the pollsters.

In fact and in truth, they're looking to be distracted, entertained.

And in the Fox way to conform to a certain kind of identity, Fox has sort of changed what the benefits are, advance them.

- So, lemme try this.

You got Fox News and you got Newsmax, who, again, people can decide for themselves.

But I'm not even gonna say to the right of Fox News.

They're more MAGA oriented than ever if you look at their programming.

And then you argue that MSNBC, CNN.

Okay, you got this whole spectrum.

Here's the question.

If everyone's just watching and viewing content either on television, their phone, however they're getting information, digital platforms, that simply reinforces what they already believe, tells them they're right, then how the heck can people make an informed decision about who they wanna vote for other than, "Just tell me I'm right."

- You know, I can't answer that.

If we, the person who can answer that, I guess, gets to invent the next stage of media, if it's possible.

And it probably is possible.

- Does that you, Michael?

Is that, does that concern you as a patriot, as someone who cares deeply about our country and understand- - Well, I, yeah.

Of course, but I look at it in a different way, you know?

- Go ahead.

- There's the, you know?

The medium is the message.

You're not gonna change- - Marshall McLuhan, right?

- Yes.

- Marshall McLuhan.

Yep.

- You're not gonna change this.

So then, you have to advance beyond it.

Where are we going?

What is another way to think about this?

Think about the nature of news, thinking about the nature of information.

You know, this is the question.

The question is not to make, how to make television different from what television is.

Television will be what it needs to be.

That's it.

And beyond that, yes, it's thinking about it.

I mean, maybe more money for public television, possibly.

Never an easy solution, but it's a solution.

There's a lot of not-for-profits being created in the news space.

There's people trying to figure it out.

No one has, but certainly they are trying.

- And your perspective is important.

Michael Wolff, I cannot thank you enough for joining us.

Michael Wolff is the author of "The Fall: The End of Fox News and the Murdoch Dynasty."

Michael, thank you so much for joining us.

We appreciate it.

All the best to you.

- Thanks for having me.

- You got it.

I'm Steve Adubato.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by NJM Insurance Group.

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New Jersey Sharing Network.

The Fidelco Group.

Johnson & Johnson.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Let’s be healthy together.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

The Healthcare Foundation of New Jersey.

And by Wells Fargo.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by NJ.Biz.

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