- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Think Tank with Steve Adubato has been provided by New Jersey Sharing Network.

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And by Rutgers University Newark.

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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi, everyone, Steve Adubato.

For the next half hour we have him back, he is a "New York Times" bestselling author.

He is Michael Wolff and he's the author of this book, "All or Nothing, How Trump Recaptured America."

Michael, thank you so much for joining us.

- Delighted to be here.

- Lemme do this because we're a New Jersey based media organization.

You have New Jersey roots, do you not, Michael Wolff?

- I do, grew up in New Jersey, born in Paterson.

- Just confirming that.

We're gonna take all the credit for that.

- Really appreciate and have enjoyed the book.

There's so many areas to cover in the time we have.

Lemme start with this.

Shocking that President Trump ultimately got elected, given how he left office last time in your previous book, "Landside, Final Days of the Trump Presidency."

Shocking that it happened.

- It's overwhelming.

I mean, you know, we forget about this because this has happened and what we forget about everything in the Trump era.

But yeah, there was nobody who after January 6th, 2021, who could have foreseen this.

And I would say it was another two years before anyone did start to foresee this.

- How much of President Trump becoming president again, winning the election, winning the electoral vote, winning the popular vote was a product of the pathetic, in the eyes of many, effort that the Democrats put on first by insisting that Joe Biden would run for reelection, and then the last minute with the vice president, in the book, many cases where she just wasn't ready to be that candidate?

- Well, I think, yeah, I mean, obviously Trump was helped by the Democrats, but in addition to that, there is this other thing about Trump.

We can call it luck, we can call it a weird sort of strategy.

And the strategy, the Trump strategy is if I dominate the news, which he does because he's Donald Trump and because he does things that no one else would do, if I dominate the news that crowds out everybody else.

So this is, I mean, a totally actually, absolutely new political strategy that I can do anything, just it doesn't matter if I am logical or coherent, just that I am unavoidable.

And that means nobody else gets the time.

And that really came to Trump's aid.

On top of that, someone tried to kill him.

So it's really kind of an extraordinary, Donald Trump is an extraordinary political figure.

- So, Mike, lemme follow up on this.

President Trump 2020 versus running in 2016, how much more disciplined was the Trump campaign in 2020 versus 2016?

- It was more disciplined, let's not go overboard here.

- I mean, I should have said 2024, my bad.

2016, 2020 and 2024.

- Yes, I mean, I would say that he got more disciplined in 2024, but as I say, don't go overboard.

It's still Donald Trump, completely undisciplined.

I mean, he was aided by some fortuitous circumstances, which is to say he had a woman running his campaign, - Susie Wiles?

- Yes, who had worked with him for the past two years, which is unusual in Trump world.

Nobody stays that long.

So she knew him, she knew how to work with him.

And then he was preoccupied by his legal difficulties.

And that was to the campaign's advantage, because he wasn't bothering them.

I mean, he wasn't butting in, he wasn't running things.

So, that gave Susie Wiles a much easier job.

She could run a organized, tight, relatively professional campaign.

I use all these words with a somewhat... to acknowledge that these are words used with Donald Trump, professional and Donald Trump in the same sentence is, you know?

- So let's do this, Michael, in the time we have, I'm gonna say Trump and, and you fill in the blanks.

Trump, and, as we speak and listen, hopefully we won't date ourselves, 'cause things are moving here quickly.

Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, and you understand Epstein better than most.

You have Epstein in interviews on tape, is that right?

- Oh, yes, I interviewed Epstein almost over a five-year period.

I have many, many, many hours of Epstein on tape.

- Trump and Epstein.

- I know the situation.

Yes, I know the situation extremely well.

I know exactly, well, I know as much as anyone probably what happened.

And I know that the exposure of Donald Trump is greater than perhaps anyone else.

He was Jeffrey Epstein's best friend for more than a decade.

- The President and Elon Musk, go.

- Yeah, you know, that was doomed to catastrophe from the beginning.

These are the richest man in the world and the most powerful man in the world were bound to come into conflict, which they did.

- How about this, I'm fascinated by this section of the book?

You talk about the culture at Mar-a-Lago, the Mar-a-Lago culture.

Describe that scene for us, Michael.

- It's extraordinary.

I mean, I was, Donald Trump, and this is also extraordinary, invited me to come have dinner with him and Melania.

Why, after having written several books about him that were hardly complimentary, but who knows?

You go, and I mean, Mar-a-Lago in itself is a incredibly strange place.

I mean, it looks strange, you don't even know what it is.

Hunting lodge, Rococo palace.

It's sort of a high comedy then with, you know, with portraits of Donald Trump in the middle of all this.

But every evening, so he would eat on the terrace of Mar-a-Lago, and he would come down at an hour after everyone else is seated, and then he would come out, and this happens like every night.

And then all of the people, the 150 people on the terrace or so, would stand up and applaud, literally every night.

- Who are these people?

- They are members of Mar-a-Lago, they're local Palm Beach billionaires, or would-be billionaires or sycophants wanting the attention of the president, or just, I don't know, just the Palm Beach in-crowd.

Is just the in-crowd, I don't know?

But it doesn't matter, they are the Trump crowd.

And again, I can see them now, everybody standing up on cue, applauding without any level, I suppose, of self-awareness saying to themselves, "Well, this is a little weird that we do this every night."

- So you mentioned Melania, 'cause you said you had dinner or the president invited you to dinner.

- Yes.

- He was with Melania.

Listen, we're in public broadcasting, so we don't engage in a lot of gossipy stuff, but- - No, but it's a worthy question to ask, what is?

- President and Melania?

- Yes.

- Trump and his wife, go ahead.

- Yeah, it's a marriage unlike any that you are familiar with or I'm familiar with.

You know, they live largely apart.

She seems to appear, and I know this from people around the president, every appearance is a negotiated appearance.

I don't think there is no intimacy, it appears that there is no affection.

There may really be no relationship at all.

- Why would she still be there then?

- Well, I assume on a transactional basis, I assume she, I don't know, or I can imagine that she likes her life.

Her life is in New York, is in Trump Tower.

She's largely with their son.

I think she's made whatever accommodation.

Somebody in the Trump Circle said to me, well, it may be the most successful marriage in America on its terms.

- Michael, you also, since you mentioned transactional, Jared Kushner, Ivanka Trump, not around much after they left, how conscious a decision do you believe it was to pull away?

- I think it was very conscious.

You know, and I said, I've said to many of the people who went into the second Trump administration, I've said, "Doesn't it seem that Jared, who could have had any pick of any job, who even now today can step in and Bigfoot anyone," I said, "Isn't it notable, and shouldn't you, perhaps, isn't there a note of caution here for you that Jared is nowhere near this White House?"

- Because when he was, what impact did it have?

- Well, I think that he understood.

I think he understands the precariousness of working for Trump.

I think he understands that it ends in tears almost for everyone.

And I think, tears, humiliation, disgrace, public firings, indictments.

I think in his view, this is not a safe place to be.

- Speaking of complex relationships, Alina Habba, as we speak, middle of July, the acting US Attorney for the district in New Jersey.

We don't know what's gonna happen when the vote plays out, if there's a vote, Trump's relationship with his former attorney, he's had many, and in the book, Michael talks about Trump's relationship, President Trump's relationship with his attorneys, some of whom he has not paid, including Joe Tacopina, I believe in New York, is a big section of the book on that.

Trump also, and I'm not gonna speak for Michael, in the book, it talks about how Trump consistently believing that he knows better than his lawyers.

But Alina Habba, we're a New Jersey based operation.

So that's why that matters.

- No, and yeah, I mean, it's staggering... - What's the relationship?

- Well, it's staggering that a person with such a limited and relevant experience to being the federal prosecutor now has that job and is in sight of having it on a permanent basis.

There, the relationship with Trump, you know, her relationship is like his relationship with all of his lawyers.

I mean, she has, perhaps to her credit, gone through hell and back.

I mean, it's not a pleasant experience to have been Trump's lawyer.

I know that he has blamed her for lots of the adverse rulings that he has had over the past 18 months, and the money that these rulings have cost him.

She, however, you know, took it, swallowed it, and has been rewarded for it.

- You mentioned money.

Donald Trump's relationship to money itself, talk about that in terms of his concern about how he's perceived as wealthy as he purports to be, but also I'm obsessed by the not paying people, and now, also the trying to make money in office.

I know that's three different questions in one.

- Yeah.

- Trump and money, Michael.

- Well, anyway, money is all important.

If Trump is not a billionaire, he's nothing.

- But you're not saying that, you're just saying he believes that.

- Yes, yes, I mean, that's in his mind, Donald Trump must be a billionaire.

- Because?

- So if he's not a billionaire, he will lie about being a billionaire because it's somehow aligned with his identity, that you can't be Donald Trump if you're not a billionaire.

You can't be Donald Trump as the world perceives you if you are not a billionaire, or if you can't, in some sense, credibly say you are a billionaire.

- What about not paying the bills?

If he were not a billionaire or a millionaire?

- I mean, the whole thing, there was a law in his trial in New York where he was ultimately convicted.

There was testimony after testimony after testimony that that's what he did.

That was his form of management.

Bills came in, don't pay, don't pay until you have to pay and pay less if you can.

And that's followed by, you can always pay less, so pay less.

You know, Donald Trump is not a nice guy.

- Michael, I gotta ask you this, you've written several, is it three books on Trump so far?

- Four.

- Four.

Well, there's "Fire and Fury," terrific book.

- "Fire and Fury," "Siege."

- I got it.

- "Landslide."

- My bad, my bad.

- Yes.

- So how about this?

You've around him a lot.

- I have.

- He's got to be on some level, charming and likable.

- You know?

- He's gotta be.

- Yeah, I mean, people ask me this all the time, and yes, I mean, there is, I mean, there is a directness to Trump.

I've been with a lot of politicians, and you don't feel that they're there, they're somewhere else, even when they're with you.

When Donald Trump is in the room, you really know he's there, and he can focus on you.

And I mean, there's an enormous amount of flattering.

He'll flatter you if you flatter him.

He will say things to you that you think he's talking to you, you think that he's opening up to you.

And that's partly because part he isn't protected.

He will say anything.

Whatever is on Donald Trump's mind, he will say to anyone.

And that is such a contrast with other political figures that you think, well, this is, you know, this is interesting.

- Speaking of other politicians, how did Donald Trump, then candidate, former president to be president again, how did he literally destroy the candidacies of Ron DeSantis, who was, you've written about Fox, extensively Fox News, he was their candidate, he was Rupert Murdoch's candidate, and then Nikki Haley, how did he destroy them?

- You know, he has a real gift for people's weaknesses.

He can identify that, and then he can mock them, belittle them, you know, treat them without an ounce of grace, humanity, concern.

They are his enemies and he will do anything to see them, not just defeated, but, you know, kind of dead.

- Is there no one who stands up to that, to him?

Because DeSantis, I don't know if they're friends or enemies.

- You know, I mean, yeah.

I mean, Ron DeSantis thought he could stand up to it.

I know many people who said, "What is that guy doing?

I mean, that guy has an incredible future in Republican politics."

- He does, or he did.

- He's going to be destroyed if he runs against Donald Trump.

- Lemme ask you about another person.

You don't talk about him in the book a lot.

But we're Jersey people, and I've known Chris Christie for 20 years, interviewed him many times as US Attorney, then as governor and presidential candidate, President Trump mocking Chris Christie in terms of his physical appearance, a whole range of things.

And I know Chris Christie to be a tough SOB, he doesn't take crap from anyone.

What the heck do you think that's about?

When a really strong person, and I know that personally and professionally, gets taken down by him?

- You know, I mean, he devastated Chris Christie, you know, and I think it was, partly this was Chris Christie's doing, you know, to oppose him, then to be abject in his loyal to him, then to oppose him again, you know?

So Chris Christie clearly never in his own mind came to terms with what Donald Trump is, what his relationship to Donald Trump is, what he could get from Donald Trump.

And that destroyed Chris Christie.

- In a couple minutes we have left, Stephen Miller.

He's a young guy.

I think he's in his mid or sort of late 30s.

- Yeah, I think he just turned 40, but yeah.

- Okay, is he the most important person in the Trump White House when it comes to immigration policy, other than?

- Well, yes, yes, certainly when it comes to immigration policy, which would mean that Trump doesn't really care about immigration policy or he understands that it's the red meat to his base.

But at the same time, it means that Stephen Miller, I would say, my guess is Stephen Miller doesn't survive because this immigration story is becoming so dark that Donald Trump will realize, I don't like those headlines.

- Hold on one second.

You actually believe that the immigration stuff will ultimately play against the President?

- I do, I do.

- And somebody's gotta take the fall?

- Exactly, exactly.

- I'm a student of leadership obsessed by how people lead, their style.

And I often talk about President Bush and President Trump, and he's not the only one.

Other presidents, including President Biden, did the same thing, blamed everybody else around them, everyone else.

But they rarely, if ever, take any responsibility.

From your perspective, is that the Trump leadership MO, if I can blame somebody else?

- Oh, blame is the- - Talk about blame.

- Yes, blame is the operative weapon in Trump world.

There must always be an enemy, there must always be someone to blame.

And never, never in any, even in a private capacity, does he take responsibility, does he seem to understand that actually, you know, Mr. President, this is your fault.

None, that never happens, and no one around him would even have ever have the temerity or the stupidity to suggest that.

- Final question, from my point of view, you've known Donald Trump for how long, Michael?

- Yeah, since the mid '90s.

- Okay, to what degree do you believe he's, we all wanna believe we evolve, we change, we grow, to what degree do you believe Donald Trump has grown, evolved, changed?

- No, I think it's one of the remarkable things about him, that he hasn't changed at all, and he remains proud of that.

He is absolutely the same as he has been.

His same interests, the same things motivate him.

He comes to the same conclusions.

You know, I remember, you know, in the first White House, they would say, "Well, you know, I mean, he's really the same as he was in Trump Tower."

And at Mar-a-Lago, they would say, "Well, he is really the same as he was in the White House."

And I think that that continues, he doesn't change.

And I think many people find that, you know, they respond to that in actually a positive way.

He's a strong man.

- You did this, Michael, you said strong man.

So I have to ask you, Donald Trump said he was joking when he said, "I will be a dictator on day one."

Do you believe that at the core, that as president, he sees himself as all powerful dictator, autocrat, whatever he wants?

- Well, I think Donald Trump wants to do what Donald Trump wants to do, and- - Regardless of the courts or Congress or the people or the media?

- Yes, yes, and can't understand why he should be prevented from doing what he wants to do, and is determined to actually flatten any obstacle in his way to doing what he wants to do.

So if that defines a dictator, certainly defines I would say, a dictatorial personality, that's Donald Trump.

- And finally, that includes us in the media, Michael, when we challenge, when we question?

- Oh, yeah, and he has been, he has more successfully challenged the media than any other modern political figure.

And the media bends to him again and again, and again and again.

I mean, there are at least two major news networks, ABC and CBS.

- And CBS.

- Yes, which I mean, for my money, have basically rolled over and capitulated and said, "Listen, we don't really wanna be in this business.

We're out of this business."

- You mean the news business?

- Yes, yeah.

We wanna be in our other businesses, but the news business, we don't want to do that anymore.

- Michael Wolff has four books on the president.

"All or Nothing," "Fire and Fury," "Siege," and "Landslide."

Hey Michael, I wanna thank you so much for joining us.

We appreciate it, wish you all the best.

- Anytime.

- I'm Steve Adubato, that's Michael Wolff, we'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by New Jersey Sharing Network.

Congress Hall.

A Cape Resorts property.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

NJM Insurance Group.

Johnson & Johnson.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Bergen New Bridge Medical Center.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And by Rutgers University Newark.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by CIANJ, and Commerce Magazine.

Hey, kids, PBS Kids and Delta Dental want you to have a healthy smile.

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