SAMUEL MOYN, YOU'VE WRITTEN A RECENT BOOK.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT IT.

IT'S CALLED "GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA: HOW THE OLD ARE HOARDING WEALTH AND WHAT TO TO BE IT."

FIRST, LET'S DEFINE THE TERM WHAT'S A GERONTOCRACY?

AND HOW IS AMERICA RUN BY ONE?

>> WELL, GERONTOCRACY IS LIKE THE WORD DEMOCRACY, EXCEPT THIS WORD MEANS RULE OF, BY AND FOR THE OLD PEOPLE.

>> GIVE US AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE OF OUR POLITICIANS BEING A CERTAIN AGE VERSUS THE ELECTORATE?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD START WITH THE POLITICIANS SINCE WE'RE ALREADY TALKING ABOUT THEM, BUT SEE THEM AS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG, SINCE AFTER ALL, IT MIGHT NOT MATTER HOW OLD THEY ARE IF THE ELECTORATE IS OLD.

IF DONALD TRUMP SOMEHOW DOESN'T MAKE IT ANOTHER YEAR, WE'LL IMMEDIATELY HAVE THE YOUNGEST PRESIDENT IN U.S.

HISTORY, BUT WE WILL STILL HAVE A GERONTOCRACY BECAUSE OF HOW OLD THE VOTERS ARE, REACHING IN SOME PRIMARIES LIKE IN NEW MEXICO IN 2024 A MEDIAN AGE OF 72, AND HOW OLD WEALTH IS.

THE AGE GROUP LIKELIEST TO OWN A HOME IN THIS COUNTRY IS 70 TO 74.

THE AGE GROUP SECOND MOST LIKELY 75 AND ABOVE.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE AGE OF HOME BUYING HAS INCREASED SPECTACULARLY OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS.

SO THOSE ARE EXAMPLES.

BUT REALLY, IT'S PERVASIVE.

>> IF YOU WROTE THIS BOOK IN 1900, THE NUMBERS WOULD BE DIFFERENT, PARTLY BECAUSE WE WEREN'T LIVING AS LONG, RIGHT?

THEIR AVERAGE AGE WAS WHAT, 47.3, ACCORDING TO THE CDC BACK IN 1900.

AND HERE WE ARE NOW THE AVERAGE AGE IS SOMEWHERE AROUND 79 OR 80.

DOES IT NATURALLY OCCUR THAT IF OUR MEDICAL ADVANCES AND OUR IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY OF LIFE OVERALL IN THE LAST 125 YEARS IS IMPROVED, THE PEOPLE WOULD BE LIVING LONGER AND THEREFORE HAVING MORE MONEY, HAVING MORE POWER?

>> OF COURSE.

LIFE EXTENSION IS BEHIND IT ALL.

AND THE FACT THAT WE DO EXPECT TO LIVE LONG LIVES IS SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE FOR SURE.

IT'S JUST THAT THERE'S A DARK SIDE TO IT.

AND WHAT I SEE IS THAT ONCE THE CURRENT OLD PEOPLE, THE SILENTS AND ESPECIALLY THE BOOMERS ENTER THIS STAGE OF HISTORY, THEY WERE THERE AT THE RIGHT TIME TO BENEFIT FROM LIFE EXTENSION.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENED IS THEY SET UP A NEW AMERICAN REALITY IN WHICH OLDER PEOPLE CONTROL SO MUCH MORE OF OUR NATIONAL RESOURCES AND EXERCISE SO MUCH GREATER POWER IN ELECTIONS THAT WE WOULDN'T EVEN EXPECT IT BASED JUST ON THE SHEER FACT OF LIFE EXTENSION, IN PART BECAUSE THEY'VE SUCCEEDED IN BUILDING IN, YOU KNOW, FORMAL PRIVILEGES FOR THEMSELVES THAT ARE GOING TO OF COURSE BE INHERITED BY FUTURE GENERATIONS WHEN THEY GET OLD TOO.

SO THAT'S WHY IT'S NOT EXACTLY ONE GENERATION THAT'S THE PROBLEM, BUT A GERONTOCRACY THAT'S GOING TO BE BENEFITTING OLDER PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS WE CAN IMAGINE.

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SUGGEST IS AN AGE LIMIT TO POSITIONS IN DIFFERENT TYPES OF POLITICAL OFFICE OR FEDERAL OFFICE.

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> WELL, AGE LIMITS FOR POLITICIANS ARE WILDLY POPULAR.

I MEAN, THEY POLL EXTREMELY WELL.

AND ONE REASON TO FAVOR THEM OVER TERM LIMITS WHICH ARE PRETTY WELL UNDERSTOOD, IN PART BECAUSE WE'VE ADOPTED THEM AT THE STATE LEVEL IS THAT POLITICIANS ARE ENTERING POLITICAL CAREERS MUCH LATER IN LIFE.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THAT MEANS THAT A CLOCK THAT STARTS TICKING IN A SENSE TOO LATE WON'T HEAD OFF THE PROBLEM OF COGNITIVE DECLINE OR DEATH WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH.

AND SO AN AGE LIMIT IS VERY SIMPLE.

IT WOULD JUST SAY THAT AT A CERTAIN AGE, I THINK SOME TIME AROUND THE AGE OF 70, BUT WE COULD PUSH IT HIGHER.

>> YEAH.

>> WOULD BE A REASONABLE AGE LIMIT.

BUT WE COULD ALSO LEAVE IT FLEXIBLE.

>> THAT IDEA I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IT CHAFES AGAINST PEOPLE IS THERE SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ABOUT IT.

IF THIS IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, THIS IS THE PERSON WE WANT TO ELECT, DESPITE THEIR AGE, DESPITE THEIR BACKGROUND, WHATEVER IT IS, IT'S THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE, AND IT WAS OUR VOICE, AND WE WANT TO ELECT THIS PERSON, WHETHER THEY'RE 23 OR THAT THEY'RE 83, RIGHT?

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT ONLY CHAFES A MINORITY.

BECAUSE AS I MENTIONED, A VAST MAJORITY FAVORS AGE LIMITS FOR OUR POLITICIANS.

BUT I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE LOVE TO THOSE WHO DISSENT BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING A REASONABLE POINT.

WHAT I THINK THEY'RE MISSING IS WE DON'T HAVE DEMOCRACY.

WE HAVE GERONTOCRACY.

AND SO THE SYSTEM WE HAVE IS SYSTEMATICALLY PRODUCING OLDER POLITICIANS.

AND SO WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO CORRECT IT.

WE SEE THIS IN TWO WAYS.

THE INCUMBENCY ADVANTAGE IN AMERICAN POLITICS IS HUGE.

THAT MEANS FOR MOST PEOPLE OF MOST AGES, YOU'RE NOT EVEN ABLE TO VOTE FOR SOMEONE YOUR OWN AGE, ONLY AN OLDER PERSON.

AND THEN WE LOOK AT THE VOTERS, AND ESPECIALLY WHO'S FINANCING ELECTIONS, AND THEY'RE ALSO EXTREMELY OLD.

SO IF WE END UP WITH A SYSTEM THAT WE CALL DEMOCRACY, BUT IS ACTUALLY OLDER PEOPLE CHOOSING AND PAYING FOR THE RESULTS OF ELECTIONS, THEN WE KIND OF KIDDED OURSELVES THAT IT'S DEMOCRATIC IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> OKAY.

HERE'S A SIMPLE ARGUMENT THAT I CAN HEAR ANY RETIREMENT COMMUNITY VOTER MAKING.

HEY, LOOK, YOU KNOW WHAT?

IF YOUNG PEOPLE CARED SO MUCH, THEY SHOULD GET OUT AND VOTE.

THE FACT THAT THEIR APATHY IS CONTRIBUTING TO THIS, THEY CAN OUTVOTE ME.

THERE IS SO MANY MORE OF THEM THAN THERE ARE ME.

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT THINKING?

>> I'M FOR SHAMING YOUNGER PEOPLE, BECAUSE NOT TOO MUCH WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THAT IT'S A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.

IN A FEW WAYS, WE PUNISH YOUNGER PEOPLE FOR BEING MOBILE THROUGH REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS.

IT'S MUCH EASIER IF YOUR RETIRED OR POWERFUL AT WORK TO LEAVE TO GO TO THE POLLS.

WE HAVE SO MANY ELECTIONS THAT YOUNGER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, AREN'T ABLE TO MAYBE HAVE THE TIME AND BANDWIDTH TO FOCUS ON EVERYONE.

AND THAT'S WHY IN THE REALLY DECISIVE ONES LIKE PRIMARIES WHERE CANDIDATES ARE MOSTLY CHOSEN, THEY'RE LESS LIKELY TO SHOW UP.

FINALLY, I THINK WE HAVE A SYNDROME OF YOUNG PEOPLE BEING ALIENATED FROM OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

AND NO WONDER, BECAUSE WHO DID THEY SEE IN POWER, WHAT DID THEY SEE AS THE POLICIES THAT ARE COMING OUT WHEN THEY CARE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT OLDER VOTERS ARE LEAST LIKELY TO CARE ABOUT IT AND GET THEIR WAY AND KICK IT DOWN THE ROAD, WHY WOULD YOU INVEST IN A SYSTEM THAT'S BROKEN?

I THINK WE SHOULD, AND WE SHOULD URGE YOUNGER PEOPLE TO GO TO VOTE, BUT NOT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY THINK IT'S RIGGED AND THEY'RE RIGHT.

>> ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING IS TO LITERALLY DO AWAY WITH THE SENATE.

WHY?

>> WELL, IN FAIRNESS, IT'S A BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT LITERALLY NAMED AFTER OLD MEN.

AND NOWADAYS, OF COURSE, THAT'S BASICALLY WHO'S IN IT.

WE HAVE ONE SENATOR BARELY IN HIS 30s AND VERY FEW IN THEIR 40s.

AND IT'S BEEN CALLED THE WORLD'S MOST LUXURIOUS RETIREMENT HOME.

BUT I THINK WORSE IS THE FACT THAT IT WAS INSTITUTED NOT ONLY TO PROTECT FOLKS IN SMALL STATES, BUT FOR THE SAKE OF KEEPING AMERICA THE WAY IT IS, WHEN YOUNG PEOPLE AND EVEN PEOPLE IN THEIR PRIME JUST SEE NAGGING PROBLEMS THAT THE SENATE OBSTRUCTS THE SOLUTIONS TO.

AND SO I THINK I'D RATHER HAVE IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A SECOND HOUSE OF CONGRESS, ONE THAT'S NOT NAMED AFTER OLD PEOPLE, BUT I'D RATHER NOT HAVE A SECOND HOUSE OF CONGRESS AT ALL.

>> YOU SPENT QUITE A BIT OF TIME IN THE BOOK ALSO TAKING THE ENTIRE JUDICIARY TO TASK.

YOU POINT OUT HOW OLD THE AVERAGE AGE OF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES ARE AND HOW LONG THEY SERVE, AND REALLY A BUNCH OF FEDERAL LIFETIME APPOINTMENTS.

>> I DO.

HERE IT'S NOT JUST THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS AN OUTLIER COMPARED TO THE STATES, WHICH HAVE WIDESPREAD AGE LIMITS FOR JUDGES, BUT IN WORLD PERSPECTIVE, NO COUNTRY HAS LIFE TENURE FOR JUDGES.

AND ESPECIALLY WHEN WE HAVE SUCH EXTRAORDINARY POWER THAT OUR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HAVE.

THERE'S REALLY NO ARGUMENT THAT I'VE SEEN IN FAVOR OF LETTING THEM STAY AROUND FOR LIFE.

WE KNOW THAT IN THAT SITUATION, THEY'RE OFTEN MAKING BETS ON THEIR OWN LONGEVITY, IF THEY WANT TO BE REPLACED BY A FRIEND FROM THEIR OWN PARTY.

RUTH GINSBURG DID, AND THE RESULT OF LOSING HER SADLY WAS THE OBSTRUCTION OF ABORTION RIGHTS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL FOR MILLIONS OF WOMEN.

AND I JUST THINK THAT WE HAVE SUCCESSION PROBLEMS THAT ARE VERY CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED BY THIS BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

THERE ARE VERY FEW YOUNG JURISTS, AND YET HALF OF AMERICANS ARE 40 OR UNDER.

WHERE ARE THEIR JUDGES?

>> IN ADDITION TO POLITICAL POWER, YOU BELIEVE THAT OLDER AMERICANS ARE ALSO HOARDING WEALTH AS WELL.

2011 PEW RESEARCH REPORT SAID 191984 AND 2009, THE MEDIAN NET WORTH OF HOUSEHOLDS HEADED BY ADULTS 65 AND OLDER ROSE 42%, WHILE THE MEDIAN NET WORTH OF HOUSEHOLDS HEADED BY ADULTS UNDER 35 FELL BY 68%.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BANK ACCOUNTS OF GROUPS IN DIFFERENT AGE BRACKETS, WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS?

>> OVER THE PAST DECADES, WITH ONLY A COUPLE OF INTERRUPTIONS, THE AGE WEALTH GAP HAS EXPLODED.

AMERICANS ARE MAYBE MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP WHERE IF YOU'RE NOT WHITE, YOU'RE LIKELY NOT TO BE AS WEALTHY.

THE AGE WEALTH GAP IS FAR WORTH.

OF COURSE, WE'D EXPECT OLDER PEOPLE TO HAVE MORE BECAUSE THEY'VE HAD MORE TIME TO ACCUMULATE IT.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT OVER THE LAST DECADES, THE GAP BETWEEN THE OLD AND EVERYONE ELSE HAS EXPANDED DRAMATICALLY.

AND WE HAVE A SITUATION NOW WHERE THE YOUNGER AGE COHORT UNDER 40 CONTROLS JUST A FRACTION, LIKE 5 TO 10% OF OVERALL AMERICAN WEALTH, WHERE THOSE OVER 50 CONTROL SOMETHING LIKE 80%.

AND SO WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A CONCENTRATION OF MEANS, INCLUDING MEANS TO CHANGE OUR POLITICS AT THE UPPER END OF THE AGE SPECTRUM LIKE IT'S NEVER BEEN IN U.S.

HISTORY.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS THAT SENIORS TELL ME THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY ARE SAVING THEIR MONEY AND NOT SPENDING IT AND NOT PASSING IT ON IS BECAUSE OF THE COST OF ELDER CARE IN THIS COUNTRY IS SO UNATTAINABLE FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

A RECENT "WASHINGTON POST" ANALYSIS FOUND THAT THE MEDIAN AMERICAN SPENT $19,179 OUT OF CARE.

ONE SPENT MORE THAN 50,000, AND ONE IN 20 SPENT NOR THAN $100,000.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE ELDERLY ARE JUST HOLDING ON TO THAT MONEY KNOWING THAT THEY'RE GOING TO NEED IT TO AGE COMFORTABLY IN THESE LAST YEARS?

>> IT'S NOT JUST POSSIBLE, IT'S DEFINITE.

BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM STUDIES THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S SCARY TO GET OLD.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE SCARY BECAUSE DEATH IS SCARY.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST DON'T KNOW HOW EXPENSIVE IT'S GOING TO BE.

AND ABOVE ALL, FOR HOW LONG THEY'RE GOING TO NEED FUNDS.

BUT WE SHOULD ALSO BE HONEST.

THERE ARE A LOT OF RICH OLD PEOPLE FOR WHOM THIS AMOUNTS YOU CITED AREN'T A LOT.

AND THEN THERE ARE THOSE WHO REASONABLY EXPECT THE KIND OF WELFARE STATE THAT EUROPEANS HAVE WHERE LONG-TERM CARE IS COVERED.

AND, YOU KNOW WE SHOULD TAX THE FIRST GROUP.

AND TO THE SECOND GROUP, WE SHOULD SAY COME WITH US AND BUILD AN AMERICA IN WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEAR GETTING OLDER AND NOT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD JUST THE BASIC DECENCIES OF LIFE.

>> LET'S TALK A BIT ABOUT ECONOMIC ACCESS TO CAPITAL AND HOW MONEY AND JOBS BREAKS DOWN IN AMERICA.

YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW THERE ARE -- THE SEATS ARE TOP HEAVY WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER AND JUST AREN'T GETTING OUT OF THE WAY.

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

>> WELL, THE POINT OF BUSINESS IS INNOVATION, TO FACE CHANGING MARKET CONDITIONS.

AND IT'S ASTONISHING THAT CORPORATE LEADERSHIP OUTSIDE SILICON VALLEY HAS BEEN AGING RAPIDLY, INCLUDING IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

AND A STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT WHEN THE OLD MAN FINALLY RETIRES, THE STOCK PRICE OF BUSINESS -- A BUSINESS GOES UP, WHEREAS WHEN A YOUNGER LEADER DIES UNEXPECTEDLY, IT GOES DOWN.

AND SO THE MARKET IS IN A SENSE ITSELF TELLING US THAT THERE ARE LIABILITIES TO OLDER PEOPLE WHO PERPETUATE THEMSELVES IN POWER AT THE APEX OF THEIR ORGANIZATIONS.

IT'S NOT JUST SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.

IT'S THOSE WHO RULE EVERY ORGANIZATION IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND SO I THINK THERE TOO YOU HAVE YOUNGER FOLKS AND BUSINESS WAITING AROUND, WAITING FOR THEIR TURN AND WAITING TOO LONG BECAUSE WE'VE ABOLISHED MANDATORY RETIREMENT AND SAID WE DON'T THINK THE RISK OF PEOPLE AGING IN THEIR POSITIONS IS SERIOUS.

BUT IT IS.

>> BUT THEY SORT OF PUT CONSTRAINTS ON YOUR CRITIQUE HERE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHITE COLLAR EXECUTIVE -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WORK.

BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO CANNOT AFFORD TO RETIRE.

I MEAN, THAT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CRISIS.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF ELDER PEOPLE WORKING JOBS THAT ARE JUST MINIMUM WAGE OR BETTER.

>> EXACTLY, OR WORSE.

THE POVERTY RATE FOR OLDER AMERICANS IS NO WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE'S.

AND IT'S FAR BETTER THAN THE POVERTY RATE OF CHILDREN, IN PART BECAUSE WE HAVE A SYSTEM THAT ALWAYS PRESERVES ELDER BENEFITS, BUT IS WILLING LIKE IN DONALD TRUMP'S ONE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL TO CUT AID FOR POOR CHILDREN.

BUT YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE SHOULD HELP THOSE AGING AMERICANS WHO NEED HELP EVEN MORE THAN WE DO NOW.

THE QUESTION IS ABOUT WHO HAS POWER.

AND THERE WE CAN SEE THAT IT'S ALSO THE AGING WHO HAVE DISPROPORTIONATELY MORE I WOULD ARGUE TOO MUCH.

SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO DEAL WITH BOTH PROBLEMS AT ONCE, BUT IT'S VERY DOABLE.

>> OKAY.

SO WHAT ARE THE MOST PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS HERE?

YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO INCREASE YOUTH REPUTATION.

YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT MANDATORY LIMITS ON CERTAIN TYPES OF JOBS.

WHAT ARE THINGS THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY POLITICALLY DO TO TRY TO FIX THIS?

>> WELL, I'LL JUST MENTION HOUSING, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T TALKED A LOT ABOUT IT.

BUT WE DO NEED TO BREAK THE STRANGLEHOLD OF OLDER PEOPLE ON THE HOUSING STOCK.

AND I THINK THE MOST FEASIBLE WAY, AND IT'S VERY REASONABLE IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TOE MAKE LAND USE DECISIONS OUTSIDE THE LOCAL LEVEL, WHICH ARE SADLY CONTROLLED BY OLDER PEOPLE GOING TO THE RELEVANT MEETINGS.

AND THE SAD THING IS THE RESULTS ARE THAT NEW BUILDING IS BLOCKED EVEN FOR SENIOR APPROPRIATE HOUSING.

SO IF WE DID BELIEVE THAT NOT JUST YOUNGER PEOPLE DESERVE A FAIR SHOT AT THEIR OWN HOME, BUT THAT OLDER PEOPLE DESERVE SENIOR APPROPRIATE HOUSING, WHETHER IT'S STATE-BUILT OR PRIVATELY BUILT, WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S MORE HOUSING BUILT IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT'S APPROPRIATE FOR FOLKS OF ALL AGES.

I ALSO THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE CONTROVERSIAL, BUT RELAXING OUR IMMIGRATION RESTRICTIONISM, WHICH HAS SURGED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES IS A MUST.

ACTUALLY, IT TURNS OUT THAT OLDER VOTERS ARE MOST IN FAVOR OF IMMIGRATION CONTROLS, AND YET THEY'RE THE ONES WHO MIGHT BENEFIT THE MOST FROM MORE AMERICANS BECAUSE WHO'S GOING TO WORK TO PAY FOR THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY, AND WHO'S GOING TO DO THE WORK OF CARING FOR THEM BUT IMMIGRANTS.

AND SO THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW THERE ARE EASILY AVAILABLE FIXES THAT OUGHT NOT TO BE A HARD SELL.

IT'S JUST THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE POLITICIANS TO VOICE THE NEED FOR THEM.

AND WHY IS THAT?

WELL, THAT TAKES US BACK TO THE AGE OF OUR POLITICIANS, I'M AFRAID.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA."

AUTHOR SAMUEL MOYN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.