foreign [Applause] [Music] foreign [Applause] montia and you are watching PBS books thank you for joining us PBS books in collaboration with South Florida PBS is pleased to host a conversation with award-winning author T.J cloon author of in the lives of Puppets since 2015 PBS books has worked to share with audiences across the country the voices of dynamic diverse authors as they attended book festivals PBS books is a proud partner of the Library of Congress to promote their 2023 National Book Festival let's take a moment to hear from Dr Carla Hayden I'm Carla Hayden librarian of Congress and I want to give a thank you to PBS folks for supporting the national Book Festival hope you can join us in Washington and online for this year's Festival on Saturday August the 12th thank you will the 2023 Library of Congress National Book Festival occurred on Saturday August 12th like Dr Hayden shared the festival was free and opened to everyone focusing on the theme everyone has a story since then the Library of Congress has worked to prepare all of the festival conversations to be available for you representing the voices of 80 outstanding authors just go to loc.gov bookfest now through August 31st PBS folks and PBS stations across the country will host a series of 10 virtual conversations with 11 authors they are also available on demand on PBS books and the national Book Festival website let's take a moment to hear from president and CEO South Florida PBS Dolores Fernandez Alonso welcome I'm Dolores Fernandez Alonso president and CEO for South Florida PBS and I am thrilled to be here to introduce this evening's event with author TJ cloon in celebration of the Library of Congress National Book Festival I am proud that South Florida PBS is committed to sharing the voices of contemporary authors through our program between the covers hosted by Anne bocock who will be moderating today's conversation there is no question that books have the ability to bring people from various places together just like the Library of Congress National Book Festival which has become one of the most prominent literary events in the United States we hope that you'll enjoy and join us on a journey tonight and learn more about best-selling author TJ cloon and his book in the lives of Puppets we are also thrilled that PBS books partners with libraries as libraries are a crew crucial partner for South Florida PBS and other PBS stations across the country we hope you'll enjoy tonight's conversation South Florida PBS is proud to be part of this important event back to you Heather thanks Dolores today's conversation features TJ cloon to discuss his latest work and his involvement in the National Book Festival so let's meet TJ TJ cloon is the best-selling author of the house in Cerulean sea into the river I drown and under the whispering door he is also the author of multiple fantasy series as well as the young adult series The extraordinaries Clune has won a lamba literary award and an Alex award and has been nominated for a locust award being queer himself cloon believes it's important now more than ever to have accurate positive queer representation in stories his latest novel in the lives of Puppets will be featured in the 2023 National Book Festival it is my pleasure to welcome TJ hello thank you so much for having me I appreciate it well we're so happy to have you and to guide the conversation today we are thrilled to have Ann bocock who is the host of between the covers and mocock began her broadcasting career in radio news in Richmond Virginia she worked as an anchor reporter and talk show host working in several East Coast markets she was the host of the talk show Florida Forum of the NPR affiliate radio station wxel for eight years with interviews ranging from National interest to local celebrities she is now currently the hosts of between the covers an interview show about books and authors produced by South Florida PBS and distributed nationally it is my extraordinary honor to welcome Anne welcome Anne Heather thank you so much I am just delighted that I can be part of this conversation I mean this is like a front row seat to a literary Journey all the things that you're doing and I'm selfishly I'm really happy to be able to talk to TJ so thank you heather well enjoy the conversation I can't wait to see you at the end TJ hi nice to see you so much nice to see you too so glad to meet you and before we talk about anything can I tell you that because of you this is the first time a vacuum cleaner ever made me cry you know what that sentence has been uttered to me many many times over the past few weeks since that book came out and I am all here for it I am here for it I want to get inside your head because these worlds that you have created these characters they they've stolen my heart they are certainly something aren't they nurse ratchet and Rambo these machines that populate this this book in the lives of Puppets are some of the strangest and yet some of the best that I've created and I'm so pleased that people are able to finally meet them it feels like it's been a long long time to get the book out all right let's go back to the vacuum cleaner that stole my heart and that's Rambo and what how do you come up with that do you I'll give you the honest answer and it's probably slightly embarrassing for me in that the whole reason this book exists is because of capitalism because one day I decided I needed to buy a Roomba vacuum and so I did what that that thing that humans do where we anthropomorphize or we give human qualities to inhuman things so I put little googly eyes on it and when you first turn on these machines they have to go and start mapping around the house or their location so they know where to go and this this weird little machine started doing just that and then for some reason it got itself stuck in a corner and it made the saddest beeping sound that I have ever heard a machine make and for some reason that just blew up this entire story in my head almost immediately I knew who Rambo was I knew he was going to be a vacuum cleaner with a heart of gold and social anxiety I knew there was going to be a human named Victor I knew that there was going to be if there was going to be a human and there was machines and there'd need to be a nursing machine to help to make sure he's healthy the human and then I thought oh my gosh what if she's a sociopath and then it all just kind of came together from there so the real reason this book exists is because one day I decided I needed a new vacuum cleaner I love it but one with googly eyes of course one with googly eyes yes because we do that I love humans so much because we when we see things that are inhuman we always try to put some human-like qualities on them and I find that fascinating well the book in the lives of Puppets you are pretty much reimagining the Pinocchio story and I don't mean the Disney version because correct there are some dark moments here it's and then as I say it's dark somehow you have this recipe to cook the dark with light and you've created magic I mean it's it's a wondrous story what was the inspiration I've always been wanting to to play around with a retelling or reimagining of a fairy tale or a fable the reason being you mentioned Disney is that when when I went on tour for this book to talk about it I always asked a question I asked how many of you have read Carlo collodi's The Adventures of Pinocchio the original story you know a handful of people would raise their hands and then I would ask how many of you have seen the 1940 Disney version and surprise surprise most everybody raised their hands um while the Disney version does have some moments of Darkness if you remember there was uh the scene in the film where the children are turning into donkeys which is quite frightening but at the same time as with most Disney uh retellings or adaptations it loses something in in the luster of it did the Disney Sheen is bright and shiny but what's so interesting about all these old fairy tales and fables is the undercurrent of Darkness they're not even an undercurrent like the through line of Darkness said to each of them uh in the original version of The Adventures of Pinocchio when carlotti first wrote the original draft he wrote Pinocchio getting killed at the end getting hung from a tree from his hubris for wanting to become human and it was not until his editor came in and said you know you're writing the story for children right and that's why he changed the ending to make it how we know today but I just love this idea that these fairy tales and fables these stories that have been with us for centuries all bask in darkness and I love that it doesn't get much darker than than the one that you just spoke about do you write books that you would have liked to have read as a younger person and I ask because you do have readers of all ages yeah oh absolutely look I'm I just turned 41 years old I you know what's so wonderful about books is is how diverse that they have become but it wasn't always that way I mean it wasn't too long ago that the Science Fiction and Fantasy genre was a straight white male game with notable exceptions of course but for a very long time marginalized voices in Science Fiction and Fantasy were underrepresented and if they were represented uh it was not to any kind of mainstream success so when I was a kid I never got to see myself in the books that I read I never got to see a queer person I never got to see a kid with ADHD and if I did see any of those things they were either harmful stereotypes or they were uh there we were there to teach very valuable lessons to the straight characters so when I'm writing I'm writing for anybody who wants to read my books but I'm also writing specifically with my queer audience in mind because for so long we never got to have our stories told we never got to be the heroes of Our Own Story so I want to make sure that if there's a kid out there anywhere in this country or around the world who feels like that they haven't been seen I want to make sure I write them the book so they can have that moment talk about that just a little bit more you are consciously focused on giving your readers representation correct and you are it every in your books you celebrate the other nests so what is it that we're missing in books in in all kinds of media you you're giving your readers validity for for lack of a better word and that it's a gift and it is a personal thing correct it absolutely is personal because you know when you're a kid and you are queer it can create a sense of otherness to you you can make you feel like you can't relate to your peers in any meaningful way and granted things have gotten you know I hesitate to use this word given where we are now but things have gotten better than than where I was when I was growing up in the 80s and the 90s that being said you know with the the extraordinary movement as of late to to restrict what can or cannot be read it feels like we're we're in the same battle that we were in 30 40 50 years ago and it just reminds me that no matter what these arguments are circular that that in 40 or 50 years we may be having the same conversations again about who can or cannot read books I I am uniquely aware of the position I'm in and the privilege that I have and at the same time I'm going to use that position and that privilege as much as I possibly can to ensure that queer voices and other marginalized voices are heard no matter what on the same same wavelength here as an advocate for representation in literature are there changes that you'd like to see in the industry as a whole something that could perhaps further promote inclusivity and diversity absolutely young adult the young adult genre has been at the Forefront of diversity and inclusion for many years many years uh you can find authors of color trans queer non-binary authors getting to be able to tell their stories in young adult unfortunately adult fiction is still kind of dragging behind in that regard it's only as of late that we're seeing more and more uh authors of color and and queer authors in the Science Fiction and Fantasy genre actually get a seat at the table I really think in order to move forward and and become more inclusive we have to emulate young adult genre because the young adult genre they know how to speak to their readers they know what stories their readers are looking for and they're getting be told from so many different points of view that it's it's wonderful and I'm really really hoping that Science Fiction and Fantasy the adult Market follows suit with what young adult has been doing time and time again it's scary interesting that the young adult Market seems to be I don't know more more current I suppose well it's it's the fact that the kids the kids these days and it makes me sound so old when I say that I feel that in my bones but the kids these days are so much smarter savvier more worldly than we ever were at their age if anything they have the entire world's information in their pocket at all times they can look up anything that they want to and in my time in traveling around this country and into the UK and in Canada I've gotten to speak with many many young people and I will tell you one thing they are paying attention and they are very very upset by what's going on by the wrongness by by the people in power in charge trying to dictate what they can and cannot do what they can and cannot read they are paying attention and they will be listening and watching and they their voices will be heard I used to worry about the future I really did but in the time that I've spent speaking with young people around the world I've learned that I don't need to worry anymore if anything it's the people in power right now that need to worry because the kids are coming and they're going to make their voices heard the kids are coming in from what I'm hearing from you we're in good hands absolutely TJ What does it mean for you to be part of this the Library of Congress National Book Festival and I'll give you a little aside for me being from a small town and as a child libraries showed me a world that existed beyond what what I knew and and really carved my path tell me about any personal connections that you may have had so I grew up in a town in Oregon called Roseburg right outside of Roseburg is a little Community called Melrose it's a very small small town and you have to imagine that this is in the 80s and the 90s a lot of the AIDS crisis Reagan Clinton don't ask don't tell so imagine you are a queer kid coming of age in a rural setting like that and you also have undiagnosed ADHD and live in a household where things like the love of reading and writing are something to be mocked and made fun of I I learned very early on if there was something joyous that brought me happiness that it was something that could be taken away so what did I do I tried to escape from that house as much as I possibly could in one of those places was the Douglas County Public Library and the Douglas County Public Library um Saved My Life as a kid it doesn't get uh I don't need to to wax on about that even more because it literally saved my life when I was in kid I would bike into town every day during the summer and I would spend when the library opened until when the library closed that's where I would spend my days I would read fiction nonfiction I would read anything I could get my hands on and it didn't matter if it was far above my reading level I still wanted to read and that's how I learned and the Librarians there they were enablers of the best kind they fed my addiction to books they they asked me what I wanted to read what I was looking for and in fact the librarian one of the Librarians the one that I I talked to most when I was a kid was one of the first people I came out to and she at that point gave me started giving me books with queer people in them and I've never forgotten that I never have forgotten that because I know how it feels to be able to be in that position and need somebody or something to hold on to libraries are backbones of communities libraries are some of the most important things we have and the attack on libraries in the year 2023 is not only mind-boggling it's absolutely destructive this library was a Lifeline for you oh gosh yes yes I I honestly I would not be here without this library because it was a place where I could go and not feel judged by anyone or anything and I can be ignored and wrapped in the world of a book all I would do is find some Corner in this Library stack of books and I would stay there all day and read you also shared something with me a little earlier but before we went on air and that was you had two English teachers I believe you were in middle school yeah really fostered you and said you could write yeah that was Mrs Benson Mrs Pfeiffer look when when I was in seventh grade by the time I got to seventh grade at Fremont uh Junior High in Roseburg I my self-esteem was non-existent I had been I had been you know there's more than than just physical abuse psychological and mental abuse is extraordinary on on a child it is damaging like you wouldn't believe and all I heard as a kid was I'm not good enough you're not good enough to do this you're not good enough to do that why do you like reading why do you like writing that's stupid don't do that and it was not until I got into seventh grade that I met two women who changed my life Mrs Benson Mrs Pfeiffer and they told me um that writing was important that writing was good and then one class we had with them near the beginning of the year they gave us this assignment where we had to turn this memory we had into fiction and I don't remember what I wrote about but what I do remember is just how nervous I was on that day going into class getting ready to turn in my assignment only to find out then that Mrs Benson Mrs Pfeiffer were evil because they did not take the stories home to grade them like I thought instead they gave us busy work and started creating them right in front of us so me as socially anxious awkward tween watched his folder getting higher and higher in the stack and I'm sinking lower lower my seat just covered in flop sweat and then Mrs uh Betts opened my story and started reading she started chuckling and she started laughing louder and louder and Mrs Pfeiffer heard her and came over to see what was going on and they started from the beginning and Pfeiffer read over her shoulder by the time they finished they were they were laughing so hard they were crying and that was the very first time that I understood the power of the written word that it could bring people joy happiness excitement love laughter and at the very end of my school year with them in my very last class at them they told me one day they would see my name on a book in a bookstore and guess what I'm proof positive over the power that teachers have over their students in addition to the Douglas County Public Library Mrs Benson this is five of her were defining moments of my childhood I would not be here without them because they showed me what faith in a child can look like all right TJ you just gave me chills and I guess anybody else that just heard backpack what a testament to to mentors to libraries to teachers I want to look at the fantasy genre for a moment because there's an ability through this to allow us to see an alternate reality and that when we stretch our imagination to see beyond the right now can't we end up fostering change can't we use does disillusionment or or feeling the societal wrongs does that fuel your storylines on in this same manner it does because even though even though I'm writing about the Fantastical I'm still thinking in very real world terms if we're looking at books like the house and the Cerulean sea it deals with bigotry but instead of being a link bigotry of homophobia racism misogyny it deals with bigotry against magical beings and under the whispering door we learn about internalized hatred and what that does to a person and in the lives of Puppets we're looking at at what does forgiveness look like who has the right to forgive what does that even mean what does forgiveness even look like to a person who may or may not have been affected I think that in in Science Fiction and Fantasy as in with all books it's not necessarily about the ex the the bigger part of the story it's about the humanness and that we can relate to these people these characters and that's how it felt for me that's how reading has always felt for me even books where I don't understand the character's actions or motive Innovations I can still relate to them because they're fundamentally human and I find it fascinating that that for all our big ideas and our how often we look to the Stars we're still just fundamentally flawed we are imperfect creations and there's nothing like us in all the universe and I don't understand why so many of us decide that destruction is the best way to go when we could be building a world that is better for everyone everyone it would be it's not going to be easy it's going to be a lot of difficult work but you know what we can do that we can absolutely do that let's go back to the human element for a moment Victor Lawson in the lives of Puppets is a human perhaps the only remaining human in the universe the other characters are not human but they're main characters they're they're not just Side characters his family his true family his adoptive father is a machine then you have nurse ratchet who I as much as I love Rambo I adore her because it's sociopathic and and she does the most out says the most outrageous things you show us what a family is and talk about that and what a home is so you know there has been a a tropification if that's a word of the idea of found family and I get it I get why a lot of people love that idea and love that term but something that I'm always trying to caution people over at least make them aware of is found family it's not a Trope it comes from a very real place many many queer people don't get to have the love and respect and and and hope and joy and and and all of that that comes along with growing up from their families they don't get to have that I didn't get to have that so what do we do we go out into the world and find people to become part of our family my family is made up of my sister my brother and everybody else in my family is not related to me by blood that is the choice I made I went out into the world and I found people who would love me for me and who I can love for them so when we when we get to the idea of of found family and fiction it's it's become almost like a marketing point now it's become like a selling point and I get that I get why people love to read about that kind of stuff but I just hope that people remember that found family this idea of coming together comes from a real place where so many queer people and this family in particular it's I love them because of how different they are you would think looking at all of them separately if they were a machine that their parts wouldn't necessarily work together but they do they absolutely do because Rambo and nurse ratchet they are Victor's friends they are his family even if in essence they are essentially supposed to mimic the Jiminy Cricket or talking cricket role by being Victor's conscience they still have their own arcs and motivations and desires and I I love that they are as you said essentially main characters because they are on page as much as the main character Victor is hello I'm Ann bocock from South Florida PBS and for those of you just joining we're talking to author TJ cloon about his new book in the lives of Puppets now let's get back to our conversation we are this is the Library of Congress event and we are certainly as we talked a little bit before in a climate that has many challenges to books in school libraries some books are being outright banned let's get into your concerns and what you think about this just a little bit more so I have been in a position where my books are not as prevalently challenged or banned in the United States and I was I recently did an interview with the hill and I was asked why do you think your books aren't getting uh uh mentioned as much as some other queer novels and I have a very good answer for that I am a CIS white gay man most of the books especially books listed by American American Library Association as being banned or challenged in the United States are either a written by an author of color or B written by a trans person or C written by a trans author of color that is what is being targeted and let's look at that a little bit closely then so if they are going after books about queer people by queer people for queer people and they're going against or they're trying to take down books that are by black people for black people about being black is that about protecting the children no that's about homophobia and racism and transphobia pure and simple that's what it is we look back to the 1970s in Dade County Florida and we see the woman Anita Bryant who came in and said parents and teachers and books are indoctrinating children into the lifestyles of homosexuals we need to get rid of them what did she do she started to save our children campaign in essence to go in and root out queer teachers in schools does that sound familiar yes because the same exact thing including the language of saving children is going on in the State of Florida and across the country right now it boils down to this they do not care about the children all they care about is control of what these people in their Community can read they care about removing any mention of queerness of racial inequality from the hands of students and my biggest issue aside from the fact that they're doing that is not a single one of them has ever gone to ask the children what do they want nobody none of these people who are in charge of removing or Banning books or telling libraries to take down Prime displays and if you don't we're going to defund your library not a single one of those people has ever gone to the young people and said what do you think and guess what those young people know they notice that they know that and they are angry they are Furious that there are people coming in some people without children some people who don't have a background or education in education and telling them you cannot read this what is the one thing that you should not tell a child to do not to do something because guess what they're gonna do it I'm going to go back to something that you said much earlier in this conversation is that you are hopeful because of the children because of the Next Generation so I'm going to stick to that absolutely we we should be while the future can be scary I know that we're going to be in good hands because the young people and the kids that are coming up after us are going to make up and fix everything that we got wrong I consider a sense of place as important as a character study when I'm reading fiction and not only have you created a sense of place you've created an entire world how do you even think on that scale I mean to me it's more than impressive because I'm reading about this world I not only read it I'm feeling it I am a very sensory driven writer if I have my characters walking through a forest that Dusk and the Sun is setting I want readers to feel the crunch of the leaves hear the Wind Through the Trees see the Violet and the peaches of the bruised Sunset I want them to see all of that because it's important to me that if I'm creating this world this world that is maybe not so different from our own maybe just a half step to the right I want them to still be able to feel and see and hear and taste everything that my characters are because I I kind of tend to think of writing like a painting I'm except without color I'm using words and I'm trying to make you visualize every single aspect of of what I'm telling you I love words I love words so so much because of the way that they can make people feel you can bring people to Tears by just moving words in a very specific order and I just I love how words can shape and change and do everything so with this world I wanted the people to feel like they could be there like they could be walking with Victor and happiness ratchet and Rambo and going on their Adventure because I know when I was a kid reading books like how's Moving Castle by Diana Wayne Jones I felt like I was there with Hal and Sophie and calcifer I felt like I was in this house this beautiful house and I was seeing Magic from this wizard I know how it feels to be transported and I know that there's nothing more wonderful than being transported by good Buffs words have power books have power was there a particular moment when you realize that your words held this power I have been very fortunate in that I have been published since 2011 and I have released over 30 novels and I have been able to speak with the most people that I I ever thought possible I never thought that I would be able to do what I do I've dreamed about this since I was a kid so over the course of my career I've heard from so many different people from their own stories of Triumph of grief of Hope of loss I've heard them but there's one that sticks out in my mind above all others and that was um a note I received and a direct message on social media I typically don't check social media direct messages just because people can be kind of strange sometimes but one day I was on when I used to use Facebook I was on there and this was fall 2020 so very very deep into the pandemic and I saw a notification popped up for a Facebook direct message and I don't know why but I clicked on it and I opened it and there was a small amount of text in brackets at the very top and it was from a queer father and this queer father told me that he and his son had just read the house in the Cerulean sea with their other father and that his son this this eight nine-year-old kid wanted to talk to me about it What followed after that was his huge block of text this stream of Consciousness diatribed from this kid who is basically giving me a book report on my own book and I was you know immediately Charmed and and thought that was delightful and then at the towards the end of the message it changed the tenor of the note changed it said the boy told his father who then told me through the computer that the pandemic had made him feel very lonely and sad because he had not been able to see his friends and that it felt very scary in the world but by reading the house on the Cerulean sea and spending time with Chauncey and tal and at Sal and fee and Talia and Lucy and Theodore he felt like he was with his friends again and and that that it didn't make him feel so alone I don't know if I have I've received compliments many compliments over the course of my career I'm very lucky to have that but I don't know that I've been as profoundly touched by a message from a person who's read my books than I was at that I I gave this child a moment where he didn't feel alone and that's that's that's if if I never sell another book for the rest of my life after this I will have accomplished what I set out to do TJ I was going to say pretty much the same thing you know no matter New York Times bestseller USA Today best seller does it get any better than that child no it doesn't absolutely you know best sellers Awards that's all great you know it's wonderful but it's Superfluous it doesn't really matter to the average reader no it absolutely doesn't I love it it's wonderful but the intimate small moments are the moments that make all of this worth it hands down day after day I will take those moments over any Accolade in the world when you find this level of success and I I mean the award-winning the best-selling was in the series or the characters then do you strive to deliver more of what the readers want or do you try to change it up or is there some delicate balance here there is you know when the house in this Australian sea was my first novel for a lot of people a lot that that they read for the first time read one of my books and I know how there is a tendency to want to have the same type of story with the next book that author releases but I I can't do that I'm I'm not like that I I have written in many different genres and though I've I've firmly found my home in Science Fiction and Fantasy just because I write a book like in the lives of puppets or under the whispering door or house in the Cerulean sea does not mean that my next books are going to be those exact stories I love telling different types of stories about different types of people sometimes they may be happy and and and joyful like Cerulean sea other times they might be more dangerous like in the lives of Puppets but the through line through every single one of my books is that they will always be about queer people and what that looks like when queer people succeed even if the road is Rocky ahead characters in the in in the lives of Puppets the human character and and the Machines they have growth they feel they there are dangers and obstacles and things they have to figure out but above all they're also darn lovable and I'm reading this and I'm thinking so I get I think these care these characteristics in in a human but you've made it so seamless that the non-humans feel the same and that's so important that's absolutely so important because if you're trying to tell a story about the danger I mean let's let's be frank the Science Fiction and Fantasy genre have been warning people about the advances of of artificial intelligence for a very long time but nobody seems to be listening and now we have this advancement of of all these different AIS that are going around and yeah we're now we're listening right right right now but it's one of those things it's like with climate change okay maybe you're is it already too late I mean have you none of you seen Terminator we know what Skynet does to people so come on but this these characters they were they were always going to be larger than life because when you're when your book is a big huge adventure story but it basically follows four or five characters and there's a big story happening around them but not necessarily about them you have to make them you have to make them real you have to make them even though you know that in technology we don't have something like a Rambo yet we don't have something like a nurse ratchet yet but there is something so believable about them that you know what maybe in five ten years we could have something like that and is that a good thing or is it not so good I don't know I all I know is is that like with any advancement with anything we need to take great care with our technology and what we do with it because I remember the days when I was young and we had AOL instant messenger and there was a very early version of a AI on there called smarter child that you would type to and it would respond to you but now you have ai you have people who call themselves authors who are writing books or not writing even who are getting stories from artificial intelligence from these chat gpts and Publishing them and calling themselves an author that is not art that is not how art Works no matter how perfect machines can get they will never have the soul of a human being our art needs our passion our rage our fire our joy and our drive and machines don't have that I'm you know now we do have something to worry about with that I'm always fascinated by the journey was the road to writing for you a winding path it it depends upon what I'm actually writing I if within the lives of puppets and how I've done as of late is um as of late I should say with like the last five years is I outline everything I write to a ridiculous amount um in the lives of Puppets the outline for that book was sixty thousand words itself and that was all written before I ever started a word on the book I spent six months researching everything I needed to for this book before I started and my outline isn't a set in stone it is a living document for me that I can update as I go along but my outlines are so extensive because I put things into them that'll never go into the book just for me I put things in my outlines like speaking of Victor the main character what does he have nightmares about what is his favorite food what is his favorite smell I put all of that kind of stuff in my notes so I know these characters as best I possibly can and then so when I finally sit down to write their story I know them as well as I know myself sixty thousand words in the outline I'm not trying to process that is a lot it was a little it got a little a little egregious by the end but I was I was having too much fun just adding all these little what ifs in always be a happy hand for your characters even in the the dark stories so I mean I don't know if we can think he swear to that but I I would like if there are queer people in my books they they may have a challenging time from the beginning to the middle to the end but my queer people my queer characters will always get the ending they deserve I love that and I will tell you one thing when I get a Roomba I promise you I am going to put googly eyes on it too and you have to give it a name after you do that because mine is named Hank for no reason whatsoever it just is so when you do it you have to give it a name TJ I love that TJ clums latest book is the lives of Puppets I have enjoyed this so much thank you for spending this time with me it's been thank you so much for this and thank you to the Library of Congress and PBS books for being able to have us to have this conversation about the importance of libraries and communities and the books that we can get from them Heather I am turning it back to you and thank you for giving me this opportunity to chat with TJ I I I'm very honored by that and I'm very honored to be part of this important event well and this has been amazing you've guided such an incredible conversation and it's been so much fun to listen and participate your questions were thoughtful and TJ your passion your creativity your love and use of words um your dedication to also ensure that marginalized voices are heard it's all inspiring so thank you both for this conversation thank you and thank you and for for such a lovely questions I appreciate it thank you well I'd like to thank all our library Partners out there as well as numerous throughout the country but most importantly we'd like to thank all of you for joining us a reminder to you all the Library of Congress has worked very hard to prepare incredible content on demand for all of you it is the content that was created at the Library of Congress National Book Festival on August 12th and it's now available if you go to loc.gov bookfest you will be able to browse through the voices of nearly 80 outstanding authors and curate your own National Book Festival experience well until next time I'm Heather Marie montia and happy reading [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you [Applause] [Music] [Applause] foreign