[Music] male groups dominated they would have these big programs and they might have one woman just for oh here's little woman that's coming to sing and that woman knew when she grabbed that mic she had to kill him because she was representing women in a field a large field of men stay right here for more of our inspirational conversation with Cheryl Wills next on PBS [Music] books hi I'm Heather Marine montia and you are watching PBS books thank you for joining us and welcome as we celebrate Black History we are excited to share sh content about amazing people Today's show our featured guest is Cheryl Wills author of isn't her grace Amazing the women who changed gospel music We Are thrilled to bring you this program as Professor Henry Lewis Gates 4H hour docu series gospel premieres on February 12th and 13th on PBS pbs.org and the PBS app check your local listing of course gospel explores the rich history of black spirituality through sermon and song for over a century gospel music has been a constant source of strength courage and wisdom let's take a moment to watch the trailer the black preaching tradition is deeply connected to gospel music our singers preach and our preachers sing God we ask that you reinvigorate somebody you feel it deep down in your soul it makes you want to shout it makes you want to [Music] sing that's beautiful once again gospel premieres on PBS on February 12th and 13th well now it's time to meet our featured guest Cheryl wills and Emmy Award winning journalist and author welcome Cheryl he good to see you I'm a big fan oh well it is so wonderful to have you here and I'm I am so excited about your book your book is amazing and I can't wait for everyone to learn more about it thank you so to start can you provide an overview of your book and what inspired you to write about women in gospel music sure the book is called isn't her grace Amazing the women who changed gospel music and as someone who grew up with gospel singers on both sides of the family I felt almost a family obligation to highlight the women especially who have really kind of Fallen by the wayside history has not been kind to them whenever I do interviews Heather people are like who are the Davis sisters and I'm like ah you know these women traveled the world they helped revolutionize gospel and now 50 years later it's like and who were they so I felt an obligation to give these women their crown back so they could be remembered as gospel continues to reach higher Heights don't forget the Pioneers that's I think the resounding theme through this book your book is gorgeous it is full of facts and amazing photos it is it's the perfect coffee table book and I just like just a little peak of um I mean it's just it's amazing did you always have this vision for your book I did Heather because you know you just showed a picture of the queen mother of all Queen mothers Mahalia Jackson and although I was a little girl when she passed away she is a larger than life figure like so many of the women in these book in the in this book and Heather as a woman I know what they went through they lived in a country that relegated them to a second class citizen so it wasn't easy for them to take the stage it wasn't easy for them to make their voice heard even in the church they were supposed to be in the background and the men were supposed to be upfront so I give extra kudos to these Dynamic women for literally clawing and fighting their way to the microphone and they have amazing legacies that deserve to be printed in this amazing uh books forever for people to read and know what they did and as the popular gospel song goes everyone needs to know how they got over so I want to get into the Legacy and I want to get into the stories but before we get there what pulled me into your book was your your introduction and I it was so incredibly special because in so many ways it felt like you were sharing such an intimate story and you were going to take me by the hand and guide me to meet all of these amazing women can you talk about your person connection with gospel music and the female gospel singers you included absolutely I dedicate this book to my beloved Grandma opal Wills she was a local gospel singer and she patterned her style after all the greats in this book Mahalia Jackson Albertina Walker and I grew up sitting on the piano bench next to my grandmother she was the first lady of a little storefront church and she sang as if it was Carnegie Hall Heather every Sunday this incredible singer and pianist who was born in Haywood County Tennessee in 1927 brought the delta Mississippi Bend of the Blues to a little storefront church with my grandfather on guitar and I tell you it was amazing to see the power that emanated from her as a little girl I was mesmerized because she would sing and she would stomp that foot and people would start clapping their hands and before you know it she would hop off that piano and start dancing in the spirit and it was an incredible thing to see Heather the power that's when I learned the power of gospel music how it could move you how it could transform you and sister Wills as she was called sang for 70 years and she was powerful and she sang the songs that are all in this book by the way and I did I don't want my grandma to be forgotten and as such I don't want a single woman in this book to be forgotten so that's the personal connection my grandmother and I grew up listening to their records all of them and every one of them so again I felt it a personal obligation to bring all of their stories to life I think that's such a beautiful story and really also goes to what a great Storyteller you are because you've hooked me and I think you've hooked everyone out there too to to learn more and pick up your book gospel music has such a rich history I know many people will be watching Henry Lewis Gates 4our ducu Series this month or throughout the year um but in many ways your book is also about women of empowerment it's about empowering women in in a in a place in a space of worship can you discuss that a little bit and then also how you decide decided to organize your book sure so you nailed it right there empowering women many of the women in this book especially mahelia all of the Great that were born in the at the turn of the 20th century they were born into Jim Crow they were born to being told you can't go here you can't go there and worst of all you can't protect your own body anyone could violate them and what was their recourse the courts didn't see them as full human beings so these women had to become strong they had to pray prayerfully have someone a family that could protect them and shield them because they had no protection under the law not in the South that they didn't and they really didn't in the north either so when these women sang you heard the power come from somewhere deep my God protects me my family protects me I have found that inner strength that Holy Ghost strength and when they sang it no no one could touch them no one could touch them so that was really what I tapped into that strength that they sang with and I you know you have so many of them we had to somehow figure out how do we divide you know thousands of women into a book that whittel them down to 25 so I separated it into uh you know the Queen Mother you know like um like mahelia Jackson Albertina Walker and so forth then the sisters in song like the Caravans and so forth and The Clark Sisters and then and she and then she still shouts and that's the younger women who have who were not born during Jim Crow like say Yolanda Adams or CC winens who are still picking up the mantle architects of the melody and these are women who literally took gospel music and made it their own and just took it to another level and were criticized for not following the tradition but then once they became popular they started a whole new type of gospel singing so it was hard I must admit to whittle thousands of women down to 25 women but I think when people read the book I haven't got gotten blasted yet by anyone saying how dare you leave out this person I mean obviously we couldn't do everyone but I think I got the top five in each category and um I'm just so glad that their legacies will now live on in a published book so you've discussed some of the the artists already um and I was familiar with some of the artists but I I'm not sure how many people know all of these artists or even recognize that they might have fallen into one of these categories many are new to were new to me so for each section what I was hoping we could do is show an image um and talk a little bit about the artists and why they're important and why you chose to include them and for Queen mothers I obviously had to choose mahelia Jackson because I love the image and this image is mahelia Jackson singing at the 1963 March on Washington if you look closely down toward the far the right right in the front there's Martin Luther King and they were friends and mahelia Jackson is in a class by herself that's why she's the first woman mentioned and she's number one and in gospel music there are a lot of women who call themselves The Queen of gospel but let me tell you Heather this is the Queen Mother for a number of reasons she was born in New Orleans and again during segregation her mother died when she was young she started out a fish and bread singer do you know what that is you're singing to people with low incomes who don't have any money to give you there's no ticket to get in just give her some fish and bread so she was a fish and bread singer as it was known then and she was known as the little girl with the big voice right and she's a motherless child her father she didn't really know him her parents weren't married and you know her relatives would sort of protect her the best way they could they're all living in abject poverty and she found her voice through the church and as she nurtured that voice and sang she saw the mesmerizing power it had on people who would pass out when she say she's a little girl and grown people are pass in out you know speaking in other tongues and as she Grew Older she matured and realized this is a business I need to put this on wax her first big hit was move on up a little higher and that was it Mahalia Jackson was now on tour with the biggest man in gospel music Thomas dorsy and the rest as they say is history but let me tell you why she really stands out as far as I'm concerned she took a stand for civil rights now in 2024 it's easy to say oh yes speak out and stand up for your rights in 1944 you had to think twice because you could be executed you could be killed you could be targeted especially if you were a woman so for Mahalia to say that's right and this segregation is wrong treating me the granddaughter of slaves as a lower than individual because I'm a black woman that's wrong I'm speaking out against it I'm gonna lend my voice to this movement Martin Luther King you have my full support that wasn't an easy thing to do that was not and you could get yourself blacklisted in certain circles by speaking up so the fact that she embraced the Civil Rights Movement she would sing for free with at Martin Luther King's events regrettably she also sang at his funeral which broke her heart but Mahalia and the other thing that really stands out about her is that she never sold her soul she never sang pop music and they threw all kinds of money at her Heather millions and millions of dollars mahelia you're the greatest gospel singer in the world why don't you sing the blues you'd be the best blues singer she was like absolutely not absolutely not conviction it also oh I'm sorry that was a big reason why so many people in the church respected her because she didn't sell out well and it also seemed like she was a mentor for others as well which also basically made this almost like a family tree of of people because she not only never sold out but she also mentored and and shared her gift with so many absolutely she I don't know if she was formerly the Godmother to artha but when artha Mo artha Franklin's mother died in Detroit Mahalia Jackson was in the Franklin household helping to raise artha and her siblings and artha had a front row seat to all the greats artha of course started out as a gospel singer she's in this book as a crossover Queen but her father CL Franklin the Reverend CL L Franklin had the biggest church in Black America okay new bethl church every major gospel singer including Mahalia and on down they all came through this church to perform to you know be seen by the biggest preacher in Black of America so ARA I mean how could she not become a gospel singer with that kind of influence the soul stirrers were in that CH that church Clara Ward was came to that church Mahalia was in her home since she sat with Mahalia on the piano like I sat with my grandmother on the piano and so when artha opened her mouth to sing she learned from the best and it's Little Wonder that artha became one of the most prolific uh gospel artists of all time there she is at the Lincoln Memorial during the inauguration of President Clinton in 1993 and ARA's voice she tapped into the power of her beloved Mahalia Jackson so artha is in a class by herself gone too soon but her Amazing Grace album still stands as one of the best gospel albums if not the best of all time well and I just want to point out that both melia's image that we shared and aretha's image are both at the Lincoln Memorial and I think it's super important to realize the important role that both played in in our country also as we approach the 250th anniversary of our country we're always thinking about those those true Americans whose stories maybe are underrecognized or under thought about enough and both of them exemplify these extraordinary women who really stand out and will continue to think about how they help shape our country absolutely they were Freedom Fighters Heather as far as I'm concerned both of them again when you were born during segregation I mean those horrific signs colored only my family my father saw those signs and they're telling you you're less than the government is sanctioning it you're less than don't even think about sitting in the front of the bus sitting at a restaurant counter don't even think about it so when you grab the mic to sing you are literally protesting against The Vicious evils that suppress you you're protesting against people who are telling you to get back because you're a woman so that's the power you hear come through these Dynamic women all of them in this book yeah that that message certainly comes through by hearing and learning about all of these tremendous stories and I think um I don't think everyone thinks about how recently those signs were present thank you they were present in the 70s folks you know and and I think it's it's important for people to realize that while you know this book gospel music mostly we think about as I learned it's really the TW you know the 20th century is when it started but to think about really all of those barriers so let's let's talk a little bit about research and how you went about researching and Gathering those stories I know some of it was seemed like was passed to you right you you grew up with it you learned it but these images I mean you you did your homework there are lots of images for many different places um and how did you go about Gathering the images and then thinking about the stories to go along with them absolutely well you know a lot of the research was done when I was a little girl because when these amazing uh performers would put out albums there was like essays on the back and as a little girl I would read you know the back of say sherley Caesar's album you know especially with the Caravans we loved those albums and I learned about a lot of them from reading the back of their album covers but of course when I started to compile the book I did my due diligence reading a lot of books there weren't many that's the thing there were not many books about them but I read a lot about the era and the times they lived in and their affiliation with other gospel greats like Sam Cook and the solers The Blind Boys Thomas dorsy who is the father of gospel music James Cleveland and so forth and then I had to reach out to people who actually knew them and you know that was hard that was really hard Heather it was difficult to find people alive today to especially find people who you know actually knew them and I in some cases I loed up like Dion Warwick I did an interview with her she was so happy to talk about the drink card singers it was made up of her family from New Jersey now of course Dion Warwick is related to [ -_-_ ] Houston who was Whitney Houston's mom they had their own gospel group and they fed into Whitney and Dion and you know here you know who they are so you know I locked up sometimes and other times the trail ran code cold but no matter what I was determined through research through interviews and finding other documents to get gather as much information as possible to create a narrative about these women so I noticed the the chapter sisters of song in song right the the section sister and song for me it was extraordinary to really realize how many and you've alluded to it as well how many groups of sisters were singing in church and then singing together and and really participating in gospel music in a way and one of the things I don't know if we fully covered for people who understand the Dynamics of music is your under you underscore how women were pushed to the back one of the few places they could be in the front of the church is is if they were singing in the choir can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe even talk about the clerk sisters at some point absolutely so you hit the nail on the head I know in my church that I grew up in women were not allowed to preach they were not allowed to be in the pull pit unless they cleaned it literally my grandmother the only time she went into the pull pit was when she cleaned it for my grandfather to preach so these women were instantly relegated even in the church to second class status like God called men to preach not women and that's not all churches but that was the church I grew up in and so you know the way they could finally release that pain of being told you're less than was by grabbing a mic and singing a song and many of these women especially when the sisters would sing that was their way of condemning this sexist mindset that oh women can't do that well my grandmother and many of the women in this book they would testify before they sang a testimony was basically a little sermon you're just not in the Pulpit you're standing you know my grandmother would stand at the piano and give her little sermon which was called the testimony and that was her way of saying I have something to say about the goodness of God too don't think that because I wear a bra that my voice doesn't matter so they took their power in little ways that became huge for those who listened because people would stand up and shout when my grandmother gave her little testimony so talking about sisters of song Let's Talk About The Clark Sisters right these young phenomenal ladies helped redefine gospel music in their own way their mother was the great Maddie Clark there is a movie about these phenomenal sisters and The Clark Sisters their signature song You Brought The Sunshine helped revolutionize gospel singing it took it into a whole new dimension and there are many sisters who would get together like the Davis sisters I'm sure you never heard of them right they were of Philadelphia Pennsylvania and these were women known for singing Hard gospel that that's like the church I grew up grow up grew up in they didn't wear makeup they were very humble they wore all black but when they grabed that mic W they grab the mic he there was no going back like they would tail a roof off the church so you know it's it's so so beautiful when siblings especially the girls all get together and blend their voices it's a different Synergy Heather because they grew up very often sleeping in the same bedroom together right eating breakfast together going to school together and so when they brought that similar energy together to sing to the glory of God it was just an amazing sound and the The Clark Sisters are an example of that well thank you I just want to reset the conversation for those people who are just joining us I am here with Cheryl Wills author of isn't her grace Amazing the women who changed gospel music thanks for joining joining us and back to the conversation okay so we also and you alluded to it a little bit we were talking about women and sisters and being able to preach and I was hoping we could talk a little bit about Pastor Shirley Caesar who is part of your section the architects of Melody um can you speak a little bit about her role in singing gospel music and also in her Ministry absolutely you know when Pastor Shirley Caesar started she knew women were not supposed to preach but today she's a pastor in North Carolina and she's a beloved pastor and she is phenomenal but when she started out she dropped out of school to join the biggest all women gospel group in the country Albertina Walker and The Caravans Albertina Walker is considered right up there with Mahalia Jackson she's not Mahalia but she's almost there people literally call her the queen of gospel as well but Albertina Walker had one of the biggest best groups out there and Shirley Caesar she when she started singing as again a little girl just like all the greats notice the notice the similarity mahelia Jackson started singing as a little girl ARA you know they all start singing in church and everyone's like wow you're amazing so did Shirley Caesar and she approached Albertina Walker and said this is the group I want to sing with you guys are the best and Albertina heard her sing a solo and she was like yep you come on in she was still a teenager Shirley SE is one of the most powerful electrifying Dynamic singers out there I'm so glad she's still with us because her voice is second to none one of their biggest hits was sweeping through the city that's a song my family would often sing based off the Record and she stayed with the Caravans for about eight or nine years and then she went solo and again she would give a testimony that's what the Caravans were also known for they would do a little sermon they called it a testimony but it was really a little mini sermon on the record and then they would go off and sing the song and it was just I mean there's a song called the denied Mother by Dorothy Norwood which is one of my family's favorites Dorothy Norwood talked in her testimony on the record about how her daughter was ashamed of her because she got Burns and scars on her face and she says in a live recording the reason I got these Burns and scars on my face is because when you were a little girl the house is on fire and I ran in to get you and now all these years later you walk right by me and then she said but that's all right and the church explodes you know so that's a that's an example of how women would give their own little sermonettes before they sang there's nothing like this music in the world Heather well and and it's also interesting because many of these many of the artists you highlighted traveled to Europe too and shared this bit of America absolutely in the whole world and I and I think that's also as we think about the important role of these artists in telling our country stories it's also important to realize the world was seeing that as as very much part of the culture within the United States um and I also think that's special um so let's talk about the industry because I feel like go the gospel music industry has evolved yes um and one of the things that was really surprising to me was actually the guitar so I had no idea that women weren't allowed to play the guitar that that was a man's instrument can you talk about that yeah and one of my favorite people in the book to profile sister Rosetta th oh so you know and this is consistent in American society right women do this men do that I mean that was across the board from this country's Inception you know women cook men do the work and now fortunately we are living in a time where we're breaking down all of those gender assigned roles but they were hard and fast in the 20th century and when it came to music women could play the piano but men played the guitar or the trumpet and then you have this Dynamic young woman Rosetta Tharp who said well I want to play the guitar and why can't I not only did she play the guitar she played it better than most people and she created her her she created her own riffs and you know what Heather those riffs that she just from cotton plant Arkansas is where Rosetta Tharp was from again born in the thick of segregation and she started tinkering around and creating her own sound and guess who heard it Elvis heard it Johnny Cash heard it and they were like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa and they took it and and they admittedly so I'm not telling anything that's not true she influenced rock and roll and she is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame she was inducted poly as an influencer but she is there nonetheless and rightly so she created those licks that would change American Music forever so women started to break out of those roles and Rosetta Tharp who was featured prominently in this book truly led the way but other women started to say hey I I want to do this too gospel was a man's game Heather gospel was a man's game The Blind Boys the soul stirrers I could go on on and on male groups dominated they would have these big programs and they might have one woman just for oh here's little woman that's coming to sing and that woman knew when she grabbed that mic she had to kill him because she was representing women in a field a large field of men so that's another reason why these women when they sang They had something to prove they said my voice matters so when mahelia grabbed the mic or Albertina Walker or Shirley Caesar or any of them they knew I have something to prove here and I want to get back to what you also said about traveling claraa Ward another big gospel singer who also was a mentor to artha Franklin Clara Ward and the ward singers traveled the world there is a image of the book with them it with their suitcases you know traveling getting on a plane and you know what one of their most famous songs was packing up getting ready to go because they were always traveling all over the world people loved them and they they would not only be dressed to the nines but they would do their little Holy Ghost steps while they were singing the world ate it up they hit continents everywhere so imagine all of these women these Pioneers traveling the world influencing music and when they die their legacy dies with them I find that un acceptable Heather that's unacceptable it is but that is why you're here so we can share your book and let people know well one of the other artists you included and it was in the section and still she shouts is Yolanda Adams and I was hoping we could talk a little bit I'm I'm sure Yolanda Adams is familiar to to people out there but I was hoping you could share about why she is so extraordinary in her work there she is and she's a dynamic woman as as well born in 1962 in Houston Texas Yolanda Adams uh well actually she is 62 and she took gospel to the next level she is one of the greats of all time she is sold more than 10 well over 10 million albums she is the first gospel artist to be win an American Music Award she's known as the queen of contemporary gospel my favorite song by her is Mountain High valley low so many people love that song but you know she also has a Morning Show she's performed at the White House Yolanda Adams this is my opinion is our modernday Mahalia powerful voice living in our Digital Society she is she is everywhere I've collaborated with her on several events like the Essence Music Festival and she is a phen phenomenal phenomenal woman and an inspiration as well I'm wondering if we can um talk a little bit about music so I really as I read your book the one thing I desired was a playlist or you know a a a companion CD because I wanted to listen and read at the same time um and so I have a question which is is there where do you recommend people hear these artists or is there a place they can go yeah we have a Spotify list and uh Harper go on to Harper colins website and then my website is cheryls.com and uh you know I wish there was you know that's a tall order to create the the the music to go with the book because of all the licenses and so forth but uh we do have a Spotify list and it's on Harper Collins and you know so many of these songs are the foundation of American music they're the foundation and you know you have this big PBS special coming up with Henry Lewis Gates called gospel therein lies the roots of the blues rock and roll ree you name it it all started with spirituals and gospel music is such a beautiful evolution of how this music came to be there was a time where it started with pianos and that was it Thomas dorsy the father of gospel music he was a Blues singer and he turned his life around and people said you don't bring that kind of piano playing into the church get out and he was like but this is music this is our music and so he was the one that that brought the Rhythm that you see in the church that you're going to see in Henry Lewis Gates special hen uh Thomas dorsy started that and then they added the guitar and then they added the organ and then the the tambourine and then the trumpet and before you know it it was this beautiful Mosaic that was taking place in churches all over the country and the foot stomping and the shouting and the sweating and the souls being saved and transformed I mean that is what America is today she has to thank the gospel Pioneers for her music that's transformed the world and it's been a privilege and an honor to document this in honor of my grandma sister opal wills and I you know I she died in 2019 I bring her back back to life right along with Mahalia right along with darthy love coats right along with Maran Williams and all the greats who no one talks about them much anymore but they should be talked about because the each and everyone left a mark in this world well I think your book will inspire people to talk about these amazing women I need to thank you um Cheryl thank you so much for this amazing conversation for sharing your knowledge your insights your research process your personal stories but really sharing these fabulous women who have really changed gospel music and changed America so thank you so very much for that Heather it was a pleasure and keep up the great work I'm a big fan of PBS books PBS docs everything PBS you guys are doing great work no thank you so much we also want to thank you for watching ing this program don't forget to like or subscribe so you never miss an episode interested in becoming more involved in the PBS books Community join our PBS books Readers Club group on Facebook and sign up for our e-newsletter at PBS books.org subsscribe plus check out our upcoming episode on the PBS books Readers Club with Henry Lewis Gates Jr as we talk with him about his recent books and upcoming programs visit the PBS books Readers Club on Facebook and you can submit your questions for Professor Gates and he might even answer one of your questions live as you explore gospel consider listening to the music of some of these extraordinary female gospel singers well until next time I'm Heather Marie montia and happy [Music] reading [Music]